Episode 282: Effective Test Prep Without the Stress with Dr. Kelly Frindell

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Winey Plousa Podcast, and I am very excited today because I get to talk to Dr. Kelly Frindel. Kelly, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Thanks for having me on, I appreciate it.

We're going to learn so much from her. This is a fantastic topic. Um, she began her career helping students prepare for tests back in 2001. Dr. Kelly founded In-House Test Prep in 2007. For over 20 years, she has assisted students in achieving testing success and providing students with the tools to get into the schools of their dreams. I have to tell you, I went over this a couple times because there's so many T's and S's that I kept screwing it up, but I did it with the tongue twisters. And, um, I would love to know— so you chose psychology. I would love to know why you chose psychology and how that led you down the path of test prep.

Yes, so I decided when I was in about 9th grade that I wanted to study psychology and that I wanted to be a psychology professor. And so I set up the rest of my high school, all of college, to be able to get into grad school and go be a college professor. And that is indeed what happened. I was able to get into graduate school for psychology And along the way, to get into that school, I had to take a test called the GRE, which is like the SAT for graduate school. And it has a lot of vocabulary on it. And I learned about 1,040 really hard vocabulary words. And when I got done, I thought, oh, I should do something useful with all of those words that I just learned. And so I got hired by the Princeton Review, which is one of the major test prep companies, when I was a senior in college and learned SAT prep from them. And at the time, this was in the early 2000s, the SAT and the GRE were pretty similar to each other. They aren't anymore, but they were. So I learned how to teach SAT prep. I went off to grad school, and then when I was at grad school, I actually realized it wasn't exactly the right path for me. And I, I knew about the second day of school that this, this wasn't quite right, but I stuck it out for about 3 years and then decided to change paths. And I actually changed paths into public health and ended up getting my master's degree and later my doctorate degree in public health. So I ended up changing paths, and that's actually something I talk with my students a lot about, is sometimes you really think you're set on one path and this is the thing, and then you find out later, nope, there's a better path for you. And a lot of times high school students— I, and for me as a college student, I certainly didn't know I could just change my mind and do something else.

That's good advice because we don't, we don't think about that. No, I think that high schoolers going into college think that they have to have it all figured out. And I think that's rare.

It is, yes. And even I, who knew from 9th grade on what I wanted to do, 15-year-old me still wasn't correct. I thought I was, and I didn't know until I got there. And there was no way to know. And there was no shame in switching. It seemed like it at the time, like I had failed or I had not done what I had set out to do. And it was really a big life lesson to me that, yeah, it's okay to change your mind if something isn't working for you.

Absolutely, no matter what age you are.

Exactly right.

So I keep hearing from people that some colleges are test optional. I don't know if all colleges are test optional. Maybe you could help us with this. And is that really a true statement, and are there still advantages to taking the tests?

Yes. So what you're talking about is, um, for the SAT and the ACT for entrance into U.S., uh, universities and colleges, in the past most schools required these test scores. And pre-COVID, there were some schools that went what's called test optional, where they really did give students the option to submit scores or not, and students weren't penalized for not submitting them, and all things were pretty equal one way or the other. Once the pandemic hit, almost every school went test optional overnight, and that was due to logistics because all of the testing sites shut down from about March of 2020 to around November of 2020. And so that whole class of students who were trying to take tests at that point and apply for the following year, they just even have the option to take the test. And so at the time, almost all of the schools— not, not all of them, Florida never went test optional— but most of the other ones said, okay, we aren't going to require test scores. And some of them said it's just for this year because this is an emergency. Some of them said, well, we were considering this anyway, but this has pushed us ahead. We're going to do a 3-year trial period. And some schools said we're, we're just never taking them again. And so different schools have done different things. And what has been interesting to see over these last few years— and we're now getting to the end of that 3-year period where some of them said we're going to try it out— some schools are going back to requiring tests, some have gone permanently test optional, and some are still deciding. They keep extending it year by year. But one thing to know is that some of the schools that say they're test optional are really kind of like wink wink, nudge nudge, test optional. And if you look at the data that's starting to come out from their admission statistics, it's becoming very apparent that the people who are getting in successfully are people who have test scores and people who have good test scores. And there, there are people getting in without them, but you do really need to pay attention to what is actually going on. And it's hard to find out, and a lot of times that information has not trickled down to parents or to students. And I have a lot of students who will come to me and they say, oh well, the test is optional and that means you get to choose, and if I get to choose, why would I do it? And there are plenty of reasons to still do it, and because the least of them is that a lot of the schools don't really mean it. And there is one other thing to consider too. Some schools went what's called test blind, which means you literally cannot submit your test scores. And the— in California, the UC school system had a big lawsuit a year or two ago, and they are actually not allowed to ask or accept any test scores. And so for students who are just applying in California, a lot of them have stopped taking tests because they say, oh well, you can't use them in California, so what's the point? But there is— those schools have gotten much more competitive. They've always been competitive, but they've gotten even more competitive over the years. And so not taking a test does limit your options if you don't end up getting into any of those schools.

Well, and personally, I didn't even consider the fact that it's optional, wink wink, because I told my son, just take the test.

Yes, I know, some schools legitimately mean it, but some schools don't. And it's really hard right now for parents and families to, to figure out which ones mean and which ones don't.

Yeah, no, that's true, that's true. Now I learned something researching you, um, children can use good test scores to get scholarships. Can you tell us about that? Because I did not— I didn't know that.

Yes, so even at many of the schools that say they're test optional, they're often still using test scores for their internal merit aid. And so a lot of them, you have to have the score in order to get the scholarships. And there are also certain states that have scholarships that are based on test scores and grades and extracurricular activities. So like in Florida, they have the Bright Futures Scholarship, and if you score a certain amount on your SAT or your ACT and you have a certain GPA and a few other criteria, they'll pay your full tuition. And that's a major, huge scholarship. I've had a couple of students get that, and that, that's a life-changing amount of money. And you have to have a test score for it. And a lot of people don't really understand that either, and it's not well advertised. And so even at the schools that say yes, we're test optional, and even if they mean it, you may find that their individual scholarships still require scores.

That makes sense. I, I see my 16-year-old studying for the SAT almost every day. He has this like huge book. So can we talk about helping our children create good study skills for taking these tests?

Yes, and this is something that I see students really struggling with. It's always been challenging for students because a lot of those study skills don't get taught necessarily in schools, but especially over the past few years, those skills have really been lost. And I find I'm, I'm really having to help my students figure out, here's how you make a plan, here's how you sit down and do it, here's how you work towards a goal, because some of that institutional knowledge has just gotten lost along the way with the chaos of the last few years. And so what I typically do when students come to me is we always decide whether they should take the SAT or the ACT first. And at this point in time, the schools that take scores will take scores from either test, so it doesn't matter which one you take. It used to in the past, some some schools only took SAT and some only took ACT, but now they'll take all of them. Um, and so the way that I have people determine which test they should take is if they haven't taken either one of them, I'll have them take a practice test. And practice tests, you can take them at home. You, you can go take a formal test, but I usually just have people take it at home to get a sense of where their scores are. And sometimes there's a very clear difference between them, and when that's the case, you always want to pursue the test that you're scoring higher on. If the scores are similar to each other, then I usually talk with the student and find out their preferences, their schedules, their sports schedules, and things like that to figure out which one might be better. And I also generally have a sense too, if people are scoring low, often the ACT is a little bit easier to prepare for. If they're a good test taker, but either test is going to be fine. Typically, if you're good at one, you'll generally be good at the other, and there are exceptions of course, but that, that's what I found in my own practice. And then once we decide which test to take, I always have the students pick a test date and register for it. And that to me is a really important thing to do, because if they have a vague idea that, oh, I'm going to take this test in the spring, then when we're studying for it, when they're working on it, things get in the way. Oh, I have to study for a physics test tonight. I have to go to the football game. It's homecoming. Now it's this. And there is always some reason why you can't study for this test. I guarantee it. And knowing that I have this test in 8 weeks— in 8 weeks it's going to be here quickly— provides some urgency to it. And helps students say, okay, I really actually do have to pay attention to this because I know my test is coming up soon. So that's always the first step, is have an exact plan of when you're going to take the test and register for it. And then what I typically do with students is we usually leave enough time to take a second test if needed, because it's rare that people can take it and knock it out of the park. There are some people who can do it, but it's not most people. And so I always make sure that we have enough time to leave that as an option. And then As we're studying and preparing, what I usually recommend to students is to pick out a specific time that they're going to study and put it in their calendar, put it in their book, put it in their phone, to know that on Tuesdays and Thursdays I'm going to sit down from 4 to 5 and work on my SAT. Because again, if it's just nebulous out there, if they don't have a plan, it will not get done. And there, there are a few kids who are very, very highly motivated. I was one of them. I'd like to test. I enjoyed studying for them, but it's It's not, and that's why I got into this because I think tests are fun and there are a few other people out there like me, but it is not most kids and most teenagers. So having an explicit plan is really important.

I don't think I've ever heard—

heard anybody say that.

I just love that so much. You're in like the perfect career for yourself.

Yes, and not a career I planned or picked for myself, and I kind of fell into it, but I love it and it's a great fit for me.

That's so wonderful. Okay, so the plan— having a plan makes so much sense to help them with their study habits. Um, what about the stress level? I mean, this is— I'm, I'm stressed just talking, like I'm having flashbacks.

Yes, and that, that's something I hear pretty commonly from my students. They, they were already stressed, and then these last couple years everybody is even more stressed with with just all the craziness. And with that, there are a couple of pieces of managing some of that anxiety. And a lot of times students will come to me and tell me they have test anxiety, and they have a whole story about it, about how they can't perform on these tests and they can't do well. And when I start asking them about it, I, I ask them if they're having these problems when they sit down to take a test at school, and they say, well, no, that's fine. They don't have a problem taking a quiz, they don't have a problem taking a test at school. And what I tell them is, that's not test anxiety. What that is is anxiety about a high-stakes situation which is normal. Of course it's normal to be anxious about these tests because they're high-stakes tests. And sometimes just knowing that will ease off the pressure a little bit because they've pathologized themselves and they think, I can't do this because I have test anxiety, and they've wrapped up their whole identity, I'm a bad test taker, and it usually isn't true. And what I find too is that people who say they're bad test takers generally aren't. What is usually happening is they're missing some base-level skills that make the test hard, and you can't do the higher-level questions if you're— if you have gaps in your knowledge. And pre-COVID, I saw a lot of that. I was seeing more and more of it as the years were going by, but especially now in the last 3 years, there is a lot of learning loss that has happened. And so I have students coming in who don't know their basic math facts, they don't know their times tables, they don't know how to do fractions, they don't know how to do decimals. And you can't do SAT math or ACT math without those things. And so we're really having to take a step back catch up on those skills and then move forward with test prep. And I've had a few students lately where I've said to the parents, hey, I think we need to actually back up a step, have them go work with a math tutor for a few sessions, get caught up on some of these things, and then we can pick back up with this. Because otherwise it is just going to be an exercise in frustration. Your kid is going to be stressed and anxious because they're faced with something they don't know how to do. And for a lot of students, sometimes these tests are the first obstacle that they've run into that they can't quite maneuver their way around. Because at school a lot of times there's extra credit. You can go talk to the teacher, you can redo your test, you can turn in extra assignments. And so they may not realize that they have these gaps because it hasn't shown up necessarily in their schoolwork. And I have parents come to me and they're freaking out. They say, well, my kid has a 4.3 and they're scoring average on this SAT. I don't understand what's happening. They're a bad test taker. And I look and I start investigating, realize, no, actually, that's a pretty solid representation of where they're at. They're great. It's their grades that are misleading, not their test scores that are misleading. And that sometimes is hard news to hear.

That is so interesting. I never would have figured all of that out. And you're talking about math, and I'm going to tell you that a lot of the kids seem to be afraid of math. Is that— I don't know if that's good. So, so how do you handle these kids who tell you that they're scared of the math section?

Them. I start by backing way up and we go back to the beginning and we start with those things. And it does feel scary when you don't have those skills. And I actually had some of that same problem when I was younger because I had a weird situation where we moved when I was in 6th grade and the advanced math class, which I had always been advanced in math, was full. And so what they did is they put me out in the hallway with an 8th grade textbook, which was Algebra 1. I hadn't taken pre-algebra yet. And they said, teach just teach this book to yourself. And I sat in the hallway for an entire year when I was 11 trying to teach myself Algebra 1, and I taught it to myself incorrectly because I was 11, and it messed me up for the rest of middle school and high school. And I was convinced I was bad at math. I, I really struggled with it for years. And when I started teaching test prep, I— when I was working with the Princeton Review, they sat us down and we went over all of the curriculum from beginning to end, and they would teach it to us, we would teach it back. And I went back and relearned all of those skills and once I had a solid grasp of them, I realized, oh wait, I wasn't bad at math, I just had holes in my knowledge. And that's what's happening with my students. So I really empathize with those students because I know why they're struggling with it. I know why it feels hard, and I know why sometimes they tell me they're stupid or they're dumb at math or they can't do it. And I know why they feel that way, and most of the time it isn't true. Sometimes there is something going on in the background. There may be a learning difference related to math. There are a few of those out there, and other things— dyslexia and ADHD. But for most students, it isn't that they're bad at it, they just— they, they've got some holes.

Do you think that that's the biggest challenge you're finding with students, or are you seeing other challenges?

So I'm seeing the challenges with math. I'm also seeing challenges with grammar as well, and I was seeing that pre-pandemic as well because a lot of schools have stopped teaching grammar, or there's a semester in 9th grade and then nothing else. And pre-pandemic even, I was seeing that a lot of my juniors and seniors from very good schools couldn't correctly identify a noun or a verb. They didn't know how to use commas. They didn't know how to use semicolons. And up until the past few years, I had never seen that before. And every now and then I'd have a student who'd forget what a noun was— excuse me— or a verb. But, um, it— I see it a lot now. So we also have to back up on those skills as well. And that was something I hadn't anticipated when, when grammar first started being tested on the test about 10 years ago.

Oh my goodness, I'm so glad I'm done with those. That's not helping the people listening right now. But the parents who are listening, what can, what can they do? What step can they take like tomorrow to help their kids be prepared for these tests?

I think usually the first important thing is taking that practice test is a really good idea, and you can find practice tests online. I usually recommend using official ones, which means they come from the test maker. And for SAT, it's College Board who's their parent company. And for ACT, their company is just called ACT. And taking that test can provide a lot of valuable information about where your child is starting, because some parents, like we were talking about earlier, really think, okay, my kid is a top 10% student and they should be scoring in the top 10%. And if they take a practice test and realize they're closer to the 50th percentile, that tells you, hey, my kid's got a lot of work to do. And it tells the kid that too. Sometimes it can be a really good incentive to— for the child that they know they've got to put in some work for the test. And then the other really important thing is making sure that your child has support for learning this information, because the, the books that are used to study for these tests, they're really giant. The SAT book right now is about 1,300 pages. And what I know is that if you hand that book to a child and say, here, study this, what tends to happen is either the book goes right under the bed or in the closet or gets buried in their car somewhere, or or else they may work on the first test and then it ends up under the bed or in the closet. And there are a few motivated students— I was one of them— who again like studying for these. But mostly it's really hard for kids to figure out what to do. And here's something interesting about tests that people don't really realize, is that if your child is not going to be scoring right at the top, which is truthfully almost everybody— only about 1% score— well, of course 1% score in the 1 percentile, first percentile, but everybody else is not going to score that high, and you really only need to score as well as you need to meet your goals, to be able to get into the schools that you want, to get the scholarships that you need. And so knowing that can inform what it is you should spend your time on studying, because there are some problems— the really hard problems are going to be too hard for most students. And I have a lot of very middle-level scorers who want to spend time learning this very hard material, and I know from experience that there's no way they're ever going to get those questions right, and not because there's something wrong with them or it says something bad about them. I just know statistically they're going to get them because very few people get them right, and it's not worth it to spend a lot of time trying to learn this one obscure problem when you could spend your time on the 45 questions that you are likely to know how to get right. And that's something that students have a very difficult time picking out for themselves, and it's also not a concept they're familiar with because they're used to school tests where you learn all of the concepts and you have to know everything. And for these tests, you actually don't You don't have to know all of it. And sometimes when I tell students that, that actually helps their anxiety level a little bit too, is no, you don't have to learn a 1,300-page book. You just need to learn enough to get the score that you need. And then once you've got that score, move on and go do other things. There's a lot of other things to, to do besides testing. Um, and so what I recommend to parents is get your child some help in some form or another, and that help can take a lot of different current forms. You can get an individual tutor. That's what I do. I work with students one-on-one, and that's a really great option because when your student is working individually with someone, the tutor can really tailor and customize the program to what your child is doing. There are also a lot of other options. There are online options. Some of them are self-paced. Khan Academy, which is K-H-A-N, they have practice SAT tests and practice material that's free, and it's self-paced. Students can sit down and work through it as they'd like. There are also group online classes There are in-person classes, and so there are a lot of different options for students to do, but it, it really is helpful to have some kind of guide because most students won't know what to do if you hand them a giant book.

Yeah, it's pretty— it's a pretty intimidating book. I did, I did see it. I, I stared at it on the kitchen table. So for everyone listening, you're tutoring people all over the place. They don't have to live near— they don't have to live near you because this is on Exactly.

Yes. And I, I just made the transition to online right before the pandemic, and I had actually always resisted it for a long time. I had seen that my industry was headed that way, and I wanted no part of it because I had done in-person tutoring for 15 or 17 years. I thought, no, this can't work, I don't want to do it. And with the last few years, with everybody having been on Zoom and knowing how the tools work and the evolution of the tools, it's a really different experience than it was 3 years ago. And sometimes parents say to me, that they're adamant that their child cannot do Zoom lessons because their kid had such a bad Zoom school experience. And what I tell them is that doing one-on-one online for an hour on a very focused subject, not in the middle of a global emergency that we were all thrown into with no tools and no preparation, is really different than trying to sit for 7.5 hours with 30 other people in a situation none of us were prepared for. And it is just a different thing. And so even if you think your child might not be able to handle it, I always recommend try it at least once and see. And there, there are a few students it really just is not a good fit for, but everybody else, it's kind of that same fear of, oh, I'm bad at math, is, oh, I'm bad at Zoom. It often isn't true. That just their exposure to it was under really traumatic circumstances, and everybody has a little bit of trauma left from that. But I, I find that it works fine. And I even work with— I have SAT and ACT students, and I also work with kids who are applying to private schools and boarding schools, and they're in 5th and 8th grade. They take a different set of tests. And even my 5th find that the online is fine. And I had never intended to go online with my little kids, but they, they know how to annotate, they know how to screen share, they know all the tools, which is pretty amazing.

Oh my gosh, they're better at technology than I am. Who are we kidding? You know, well, you need to shift my perspective and everyone else's perspective. You love test taking. Can you tell us what it is about it that you love? Because maybe you can change all of us.

So what I really like about tests, they're very predictable, they're very coachable, they're very learnable. And so in that way, they're kind of like video games. You can learn them and you can beat them. It's a system, it's a game. And when I was studying for the GRE back when I was 21 for graduate school, that's really how I thought of it, was it was this game and I was beating my high score each time. And every time I learned a trick or a way that things worked, it leveled— it up-leveled my score. And it was fun, it was exciting, and it it was— I, I enjoyed seeing the progress because it's real and it's measurable. And there are often— often in life we don't get that immediate feedback of, I did this amount of work and I see this improvement, because things tend to be more nebulous. But you spend this hour, these hours studying, and you see, oh, my score went up 10 points this time. Now it's gone up 20 points. Okay, can I get a 1400? Can I get to a 1420? And so approaching it like that, like it's a game or a system to be beaten, it's much more fun than I've got a 1,300-page book that I've got to sit down and this, uh, says something about my entire future, it's going to determine my entire future, and which is not true by the way anyway. But I find that just shifting that a little bit makes it more entertaining to study for, and also knowing why you're taking it and what your goals are and what you're working towards. Because sometimes students really lose sight of what the purpose of this test is, and the purpose of this test is not to get a good score. The purpose is to get yourself into the to get the scholarship that you need so that you can go do the things that you want to do. It's a means to an end, and sometimes the students think it's the end itself, and it isn't. It's just— it's a stepping stone. It's part of the game. It's part of the whole applications— game is the best word I have for it because it is.

It's a great way of looking at it. I have never ever thought about it that way, and I love what you said about about trying to beat your own score. That, that sounds fun. Like, let's beat myself, let's see how good I could do.

And, and there are, especially on the SAT, particularly on the math, there are a lot of tricky ways that they do problems, but they're very consistent and they're learnable. And once you learn what the trick is, it's very fun to sit down and you're looking and you're like, oh, I totally know this is a plug in your own answer question, this is to make up a number, this is do this. And just knowing, being able to circumvent their, their little traps is pretty That's awesome. Take that, SAT. And my students, I, I share that with them and they start to think of it like that too, and they, they start finding some joy sometimes in being able to, to solve these problems. And there is a satisfaction that comes with doing hard things, and these tests are hard, they're challenging, that's, that is not in dispute, but they're learnable, they're coachable, and if you put the time and energy into most people can see improvement.

What do you think you love most about your job?

I really, I love my students. They're so fun. And I do have my two groups. I've got my younger kids who are hysterical and my teenagers, and I love all of them. My teenagers in particular crack me up because they just, they're so interesting and they do so many cool things that I would have never expected. Like I had one student who was a shoe flipper. He would buy these these limited edition shoes. He'd wear them for a little bit and then he'd sell them for more money than he bought them for. They were collector's items and he had a whole business running out of his closet. And I didn't know there was a market for shoes like that, or used shoes. That was kind of strange to me, but it's a thing which I totally didn't know. I've had students who have developed apps and have been selling them on the App Store and who have done— who are dancers and equestrians and all kinds of And teenagers are really amazing. And I think a lot of times they don't get credit for that. Everybody's like, oh, teenagers are such a pain in the neck, but they're fun. And I have the advantage that because I am not their parent, that's one of the other things that's really helpful about having somebody outside help with test prep, because I do have a lot of parents come to me and they say that they've, they've tried to make their kids study. They gave them that blue book. Some of them sit down with them and say, we're going to study now. And kid gets stressed, mom and dad gets stressed, everybody is stressed. They're all mad at each other. And it just, it doesn't work that well. And having an outside person who is, who's an adult but not mom or dad, a lot of times that can be really helpful as well. And that, that allows me to be another support person for them outside of their teachers and outside of their parents. And I really enjoy that too.

I literally just heard a therapist say that we can't be everything for our kids. Let me tell you, this is one thing that I source for sure.

Yes, and it's such specialized knowledge anyway. Most, most parents don't have the knowledge for that, and the same is true for school teachers too. And this, this is not meant in, in any way other than we all specialize in different things. A lot of times school teachers are not trained in these methods either, and so really finding somebody who— this is what they do, this is their job— that's a really important thing to do. And if you are looking at getting a tutor for your child or having them take classes One of the things that's really important to do beforehand is find out what the teacher's experience is, because test prep is an entirely unregulated industry, and anybody can do it. And a lot of people are graduate students, or high— sometimes high school students, or college students, or parents, or people who might have helped somebody with it, and they, they do it for a few hours a week, but it's not their main thing. It's not their main job. They haven't been trained, and it's not their passion. Specifically. And sometimes those people can accidentally do a lot of damage. And I've had students come to me from people who prepared them in not great ways, and I'll say, what did they tell you about this? Oh, they didn't tell me anything, or they told me to do this, and it's advice that it goes against all basic test-taking skills. And so I do highly recommend that you vet anybody that works with your kid for this. And which always anyway, but especially for test prep.

Very, very excellent advice. So everybody who wants to get a hold of you, because I bet you you are going to get phone calls and emails from this, how can they get a hold of you for their children?

Um, they can come to my website, which is InhouseTestPrep. It's InhouseTestPrep.com, and I have a lot of information about my services. I have information guides for the SAT and ACT SAT and also for the SSAT and the ISEE, which are the private school exams. And there's a link on my website to schedule a free call. I'm always happy to do free consultation calls. If you want to have your child take a practice test and you don't know where to secure the materials or how to interpret them, I'm always, always happy to help with that as well.

Well, I love what you're doing. It is a very, very needed career. We need you for our children. So thank you for what you do, and thank you so much for spending time with me today.

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Whiny Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review.

I love to hear your feedback.

Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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