Episode 302: Navigating the Teenage Years

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Whining Palooza podcast, and I am super excited today because I have the fabulous Dr. Liz Nissem Mathias with us. Dr. Liz, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Thank you so much for having me. This is really awesome.

Well, and I'm going to be honest with everybody, I probably should have pressed record about 20 minutes ago when we started talking, but I'm finally recording, so here we are, and I'm going to introduce you to Dr. Liz because she is wonderful, and she is a licensed clinical psychologist and certified school psychologist. She has worked in the public schools as a member of the child study team as well as the coordinator of the child study team. During her tenure in private, private school, she served as the team leader to provide supports to teachers and paraprofessionals, emotional support to parents, and school-based counseling for students, as well as behavior management. While working within the schools, she maintained her private practice work part-time until 2012, and since then she has expanded the practice to include a team of therapists who have expertise in areas of child, adolescent, and young adult therapy, such as play play therapy, parent coaching, family therapy, and executive functioning coaching. I, I'm tongue-tied, aren't I? So anyways, that is just a short snippet, snippet of this wonderful lady. And if you want to listen to her, um, we also had an episode together. It was episode 68. That's how many episodes ago it was. I think I'm at like 294 or 295. So go back and listen because we had a wonderful conversation ages ago. And then Dr. Liz was gracious enough to be a fabulous guest on my summit, on my first ever Winey Plousa summit. And while we were talking, the mothers were blowing up the chat and they were like, bring her back on the podcast. So it took me a long time, but I got around to it. We got around to it. We are very busy mothers. Working mothers, and here we are. So we finally connected, and I'm so thrilled to have you.

Thank you so much. Thanks.

So, so we both have 3 kids. We were talking about parenting, we were talking about teenagers. We know that you want us to focus on teenagers, so I'm gonna jump in and ask Dr. Liz what she thinks. This is, this is a loaded question. What do you think the biggest challenge parents are facing right now with their teenagers? And you and I could probably give a list.

So we have 3 kids who are very similar ages, and one of them is college-bound, one is like high school, and then I have elementary, almost on the brink of middle school. And I think like managing teens is really hard because they're at a point where they're trying to create their independence and their identity away from us as their parents. So this is a time of very high rejection. And as parents, when, you know, think back to that former time when they fell, they came right to us and they, you know, a kiss made it all okay. Well, that doesn't work anymore. And that's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. But this is where they should be. And I joke around, but raising teens is scary. It's a lot. It's a lot what they need from us. And it has to be done in like this very unique little dance so that they're making the decisions and we're building those skill, those decision-making skills, those problem-solving skills, the getting ready for the next phase in life. So here's like a silly little example. So my daughter is in the middle, she's 14, about to be 15. And she is a very independent young woman who's very intelligent and can do a lot. She just doesn't want to. So we were coming back from California just yesterday. And so we're in the airport and I, and she's always, you know, typical, has her face in the phone. And so I asked her to look up and to, you know, we checked in our, our luggage and I said to her, where do we go from here? And she looks at me and she goes, what? I said, please lead us to where we go from here. She's like, we have to do check-in now. They have to go through our bags, our, our backpacks. And I said, okay, so where do we go? And she's like, I don't know, you tell me where to go. And I was like, no, we're just gonna stand here and wait for you to tell us where to go. If her eyeballs could have shot out lasers and like knocked me over in the airport, I wouldn't be here today, right? She spared me. Um, but just things like that where it's like, you take the lead, you do this, and they're still in that For those early teen years, they're still stuck in that in-between phase where they still want us to make the decisions, but then our decisions suck. They want us to take them here, but then I don't want to do this. And it's such a, like, so much confusion for their parents of like, so what do you want? Because one, in one moment I'm the worst parent on the planet, but then I love you so much, can you come and sit here with me and watch a show? And I'm like, I don't understand where I sit with you. Like, are we good? Are we not good? It's so confusing. And I, I think the biggest thing is learning how to develop a thicker skin, which I don't have a thicker skin. I take everything to heart. When they hurt, I hurt. I wanna make things better. Um, and I don't, I don't think I'm alone at all in any of this. I'm a highly empathic person, and if you're a highly empathic parent, Raising a teen physically and emotionally hurts. Yeah. At times because of the back and forth, the push and pull. You're the greatest. You suck. Get away from me. You don't know what you're talking about. I mean, I, I'm not saying that I know it all cuz I absolutely do not, but I'm a lot of, a lot of the things that they're struggling with, I'm, I work with other teenagers and I'm like, I know how you feel. You don't know how I feel. Okay, you're right. I don't. I, I don't even know anything. I don't know anything at all.

My gosh. Well, and I'm curious, do your kids give you any credit for the work that you're doing every day, or do they totally disregard it and not even think about it? No, it doesn't mean anything. Doesn't mean anything. You don't know anything.

I don't know anything. I don't know anything at all.

Well, and you and I, our kids are the same ages. And we're going through exactly the same stuff. So talking to you for the last 20 minutes, I feel so much better. Like, I feel like you lifted this weight off of my chest. Like, I can't believe how good I feel right now. Like, I literally feel like I feel lighter. And I want you to know that, like, everybody listening, you're not alone. We're going through all the same stuff. We're not crazy. This is all— I think what you're describing is it's all developmentally normal.

It's definitely developmentally appropriate. I mean, other variables come into play, like, you know, if there's stress in the family, if there's like a separation, a divorce, you know, parent alienation, anything like that, that's another element of distress that just further complicates and intensifies a lot of the emotions and the developmental skills that do need to be built. And just coming back to that space where those pre-college kids. So you're in the same place. I said to my son at the end of the summer, this is your pre-college year. I'd like for you to take the lead on a lot of the decisions that you're going to make because this is what it's going to be like. Good for you to practice here so that if you can't, I'm here. I can catch you in the moment. But I really don't want to catch you. I want to support you. I want to stand by you, but I don't want to do it for you. So even things he's like, when's my curfew, mom? I'm like, well, if you were in college, what would your curfew be? And he's like, well, I wouldn't have one. I said, exactly. So you decide what time you're gonna get back by figuring out what time you need to be awake the next morning.

Oh, I love this so much. And I wanna tell you why. You are giving space to practice so that they don't go hog— so he doesn't go hog wild when he goes off to school. School, which is what happens when we're too restrictive, I think.

Agreed. I mean, there's, you know, I'm very hands-on and I realize with him, especially because he's my firstborn, I'm incredibly hands-on with him to the point where he's like, you're letting go too much. He'll say that to me like, no, listen, I still need you to do this. You're not helping me. And I'll, you know, and there's a lot of like taking a deep breath and going, well, Tell me specifically what you need help with and I'll help you with that. But like even just applying, you know, filling out those Common Apps, which are beasts, and the essays and the personal statements and all of that, getting the transcripts and the letters of recommendation and just making the decision as to how many colleges you're applying because, you know, college application fees are expensive.

I don't know yet. We might be a year behind you. So is your son a senior?

He's a senior.

Okay, so my son's a junior, so I'm a year behind you, and so I'm not there yet, so I don't even know how much they cost.

Uh, they're a lot. They're like $80,000, $85,000, $70,000, $75,000. Like, the lowest was like $55,000, and I was like, what a steal. Um, it's all relative. It's all relative. At the end, I was like, oh my gosh, I think we just paid a mortgage payment. For your college application fees. Ouch.

Oh my gosh.

This is the reality. This is the reality of it. Our kids are growing. Their bodies are growing. And I think it's our job to help them then to facilitate a lot of these skills of, again, going back to being in the airport yesterday. I said, I need each of you before you leave my house to know how to navigate an airport. You need to know how to do things like this. You need to be able to make a phone call because, you know, nobody wants to make a phone call if, let's say, something doesn't look right. True. Right? If something doesn't look right on like a charge you have, I need you to be able to make that phone call. And a lot of the times my kids will be like, so what do I say? So what are you asking for? Well, I'm asking for this. So that's what you say.

And even like the, are you having them doing laundry and cooking and like, are you having them practice all of that stuff too?

Yes. I'm not gonna say it's like we, I have a, a schedule because with 3 kids and running a practice and a house, that schedule. Oh my gosh. I'm not even gonna be like, oh yes, we're on a chore chart. There's no chore chart in my house. None. There's none of that. Absolutely not. I kind of fly with it. But there are days where like I need— I also do psychoeducational evaluations and it's a— the reports take very long periods of time to write. So on nights where like I really need to catch up, I'll say like, I need you to make this. I need you to, you know, take out the garbage. You go bring in the mail. You take out the recycling. I need you to take all the dishes and put them in the dishwasher. Like all these after, before and after dinner things where I'll just be like, I need each of you to take on something. Distribute it amongst yourselves. I don't care who does what. I just know at the end of the night, I'd like this kitchen to be clean enough where I can go to bed.

Well, they're helping, and that's all that matters.

I know it's not super consistent. I'm just going to be super clear on that. I don't want anyone to think that you're going to walk in here at 6:00 PM and my kids are joyfully doing— they're not. There's no joyfully anything.

Their heads are probably in the computer and the phone. Which is what I wanna talk about.

I know, I know.

And I mean, I'm not looking for any sort of like, you can only be on the phone for 30 minutes, but how are you navigating this with parents, with your own kids, with them complaining about them constantly being, you know, on their phone, on their computer, too much social media? Like, how are you handling that situation?

That's a tough one. And that's a tough one for me. As a parent because I can see they're hooked on it.

Yeah.

And they like to like watch something while they're doing, like watch something interesting while they have to like fold laundry or do the dishes. And so I see it's there, they're listening to it, not necessarily watching it, but it's there like as a source of entertainment when they're doing all this stuff. And like, I get that piece. Sometimes I'll listen to an Audible. Like I can't do the visual thing. That's too much for me. You know, it's— I'm trying. I'm not good at this yet. And, you know, full disclosure, I'm not good at this yet. I'd like for my kids to kind of turn off their phones at a certain time each night so that they can wind down. And I know it's really hard. And I'm trying to figure out how to do that by, like, turning off the phone. So I need to call Verizon myself and understand what I can do. But ideally, I would love to be able to have my kids' phones off by a certain time of the night. You know, like, don't have it when you're doing your homework. You can have it in that time after homework and up until before you're ready to settle down. Watch your shows, snap, watch your TikToks, do whatever you need to, and then turn it in just so that there's time away from it because I feel like it's so much information and I watch, you know, I watch my kids go from one app to the next, send a text, send a quick snap. Watch a TikTok and it—

I know.

And I'm, and I'm, I get dizzy and my head hurts. So I know it's a lot of stimulation. It's a lot of stimulation and they need extra time to decompress from that because they're genuinely using their phones in such an overstimulating information overload way. Um, I haven't tried, I haven't figured it out, but in my ideal utopian world, after homework until it's time to settle down for bed.

Well, and I wanna give you a really good example from my daughter this morning. And this is the whole them starting to learn without me having to tell them. You know, she's, she's the same age as your daughter. She's 14. She's gonna be 15 very soon. And she said to me, I didn't sleep well last night. And I said, well, you know, that's not good. What do you think that's about? And she said, well, mom, she's like, I was on my phone way too late last night. And see, and I say goodnight and I leave. Like, I don't take the phone with me. Like, she's charging the phone in her room, and a lot of people take the phones with them. So I leave her, her phone's charging, I don't know what she's doing. And she was on her phone and she said, I need to put my phone away and I can't be on my phone before bed because then I don't sleep well. So I didn't even— I'm not saying your kid is going to do this. I, to, to everybody listening, you might have to physically take the phone away. I'm saying she's showing me she's growing up. As an adolescent, as a teenager, that she figured it out herself. I didn't have to tell her.

That's amazing. But you did that. And here's a trick with teens, right? Like if you said to her, well, were you on your phone? No.

Right.

But you didn't. You just said, what do you think that's about? And so you asked the question that triggered the thinking and the problem solving. I think I was on my phone too late. Oh, huh. Right? Like a lot of, yeah, working with teenagers professionally and with my own, I do a lot of like, huh, so what do you think you can do about that? Like, I, and, and I think as parents we wanna give them like, well, well turn off your phone. Right? And believe me, it's what I'm saying in my head just like that. Like, turn off your freaking phone. I don't understand. Right. But I get it. And I'm like, well, what do you think you can do about that? Right? And I like, do you think, can I give you my suggestion? Can I get, can I tell you what I'm thinking? So with teens, it's having a lot of that because if you give them the idea, their natural inclination is to reject your idea. They don't like your idea because it came from you. And I can't tell you how many times I've said professionally to a teen in the office, your mom's idea is a good one and you know that, but because she said it, you're not gonna do it, right? And then they're like, absolutely. And I was like, So normal. So who are you screwing over right now? How's that? My favorite line. How's that working for you? Good. Good. So you're tired today. Good. If it's working, keep going. And I do that a lot. And how's that working for you? Is that working for you? Huh? Is there anything you could do differently? No. All right. If it works, like I join teens a lot, join them where they are. Yes. And let them come up with the solution because then it's not yours, even though you're doing this delicate dance where it's your idea that you are implanting. And I can't tell you how many times I've had kids come in therapeutically. So I put my phone on my desk away from me so I can't reach for it at night because I, I'm not going to get out of bed. In the meantime, last session I suggested that and I was like, what a great idea. I'm so proud of you for coming up with that. And they're like, yeah, I thought of it.

Oh, well, and, and you're making me think that we need to take our ego and just throw it out the window with teenagers. It is not about us. It is not about us being right. It is just about helping them however we can help them by not telling them what to do.

Telling them not what to do without telling them what to do is the name of this crazy teenage game. And it's such a dance. And there's a lot of pausing for me. There's a lot of— and I'm getting better at this— of like when my, one of my teens is out of line. Many of my kids are out of line. And I'll just be like, huh, I'm going to give you a chance to say that again. Because my natural inclination, the way I was parented, Right? I said to my kids, if I ever spoke to my parents the way you're speaking to me, I would not be here today to be your mother because I would've already been buried. I'm just telling you. Yep. Right?

Yep.

So there's a part of me that's like, oh my God, how dare you? Right? And I have to pause, which is super hard, but the more I practice, the better I get at it. So I do a lot of silence. Which is I'm an, I'm a talker, I'm a fixer. I think out loud. I like to listen to my train of thought out loud, but I realize that overstimulates my kids. So I have to do that internally or go somewhere else and do it by myself. Yes. And I also have to shut my mouth because sometimes one of my kids will say something and I'll just stop and look at them and I'll go, hmm. And then they start talking. So that's a natural thing that happens is when you stop talking, people don't love that silence, so they start talking. Same thing applies for our teens, right? So I'll say something and then I'll stop, and then my son will sometimes in a moment of teenage clarity, we'll get the, oh, I'm sorry, that didn't come out right. Okay, so what do you wanna say? Go ahead, take a second chance.

We're, we're learning. We're learning with everybody else. But you know what I'm realizing is I think that you and I have come a long way even since the last time we spoke because we've had, you know, a couple, I think a couple years even of parenting these teenagers. Has it been a couple years?

I think two. I think it's been two.

It's been a couple years of us learning to parent teenagers while we're helping other people parent teenagers. And we've come a long way. And I wanna, I wanna tell everyone what you said before we started recording because I thought it was brilliant. We were talking about college because our oldest, all they do is talk about college. So it's, it's a big part of our lives every day. And you said, we were talking about them going to California. So Dr. Liz and I are on the East Coast and I said to my son, can you just stay on the East Coast? But both of our sons keep bringing up California. And I love that you kind of gave it to him and you were like, well, if you go there, you'll be home for winter break. If you go 2.5 hours away, you can take a train home and do your laundry and sleep in your bed. Like, I love that you're giving it to him and having him figure out what's gonna work best for him.

That's tough because I wanna say to him, no to California. Right. Stay here. Um, I love you to pieces. And I don't want you to go so far. But I mean, I've said to him, just being totally honest, I'm like, listen, kiddo, do I want you to go to the West Coast and be that far away from me? No, because I'm going to miss you to pieces.

Yeah.

Is it going to be— if you choose to go there and that's the place that you're going to be, because that's the other thing, right? His anxiety is so high. Like, what if I get in nowhere? What if—

right.

What if I make the wrong choice? And so there's a lot of— listen, there you're going to— you're going to go where you're meant to be. And if you get there, and you realize it's not where you wanna be, you can always change your mind. You can always change your mind on this decision and any decision in life. You can always change your mind because in his mind, once I make a decision, it's set forever. And I said to him, you know, I'm gonna, obviously I'm gonna miss you. I'm gonna miss you if you go 2.5 hours or if you go across the country, like, right? I'm gonna miss you. That's just the reality of it. Would I like for you to be close? Yes. That's my selfish need. But wherever you go, I'm going to support you 100%. That's it.

Well, and I have days— see, they're probably going through the same thing that we're going through. I have days where I'm like, just let him fly to wherever he wants to fly to. Let him be him. Let him have the best. And then I'm like, no, he has to stay on the East Coast. And that's my rule and I'm sticking to it. So I'm going back and forth and I'm going to guess that our sons are also going back and forth with what they want. Right?

Absolutely. I believe it 100% because sometimes, like, I'll hear him say, well, I could go to Hofstra or I can go to University of Delaware. And I'm like, yes, you know, and my, in my, and I'm doing like my little, you know, cheerleader cheer inside my head. Yeah. Um, but I'm like, maybe you can. I said, you know, and it really depends on where you're accepted and then what the numbers look like in the end. Right? And that's, that's a big reality for us. You know, we don't have unlimited funds.

Well, and I, and I love that you're presenting that to him because, you know, I'd love that our sons think that the world is their oyster and they can go wherever they want. But, you know, the reality is in my home is if he wants our help, then we have to actually be able to afford where he goes.

So I think that's, I think that's a reality for All of us, you know, for anyone who can, you know, for anyone who can, God bless. It's not me. That's not right.

Right. Well, and, and I know you have a client, but before I let you go, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of hard topics with teenagers. I mean, let's, let's touch on sex, drugs, alcohol, um, relationships between teenagers. Like, how do we as parents manage really difficult topics with our teenagers?

I think, and these are all topics that I've had to absolutely have conversations that I have had to have with my kids. You know, if you're going to be sexually active, you know, please tell me, no judgment. We need to make some decisions to keep you safe. When it comes to relationships, you know, both my kids have had relationships and kind of navigating them and understanding that relationships are 50/50. You know, there's going to be feelings of jealousy and there's going to be feelings of, you know, wanting, you know, what you want. And, but, you know, keep, it's, it's constant conversation. It's not a one conversation and done. It's a constant conversation that you're having, like when things come up. And I have one child who will talk when he's ready. And then I have one child who's, my daughter is very much like, I don't wanna talk about it. I don't wanna talk about it. I don't wanna talk about it. And I can get her for like 2-minute snippets. And then the conversation is over and she shuts down again. So they're very, very different. But it's a lot of like, whatever's going on with your child, or if they're expressing interest in dating, kind of like, what does that mean to you? What is dating? What is a relationship? And what happens when you have a disagreement? What happens? You know, what happens when? And kind of letting them share some of like, so what does having a relationship mean? And what is your goal in this relationship? Right? And it's like constant conversations as they become relevant because teens are so, um, they're egocentric. Say, so they see a lot of things from their perspective only. So going broader for them is like, well, I didn't think of that. Why would I think of that? You're right. Cuz it's not relevant to you right now in this moment. And then when it becomes relevant, then they can tolerate the conversation. And depending on your child, um, you, you know how long you can have that conversation for and how much they can take in before they shut down again. Um, my favorite place to have these conversations is the car. You're stuck with me. Car is moving and we're not looking at each other.

Yes, yes, yes.

So going on a lot of these like college tours with my son was a huge source of conversation. Um, having, uh, and then with my daughter, it's, you know, let's go here, let's run this errand. Um, because she, she doesn't really love to talk about it. So you had said sex, um, relationships, alcohol, you know, there's a lot of parties in high school and even before high school.

Yeah.

And there's vapes and there's weed pens and all of it. Um, I think it's I think it's good for us as parents to share our view and say, this is what I would like for you. Tell me what pressures you're getting. Tell me what you're feeling like you need to do or what you can do. So some kids are very happy to be like, I'm not doing this. It's not my thing. My parents will kill me. I always say to them, blame me. Any situation, just be like, my mom would kill me. I can't do this. I'm not allowed. Not a lot of teens love that because It's embarrassing. Uh, but in those situations when they feel like they can, I'm always like, always blame me. Always blame me. And if you need to get out of a situation, you send me a text and I will be there. No questions asked. Um, but it's a tough one because there's the pressure to drink at any party. So a lot of conversations around, okay, so make sure that You know where this is being poured from. You're watching it being poured or you're pouring it yourself. If you're, if you don't want to have a drink, get some water out of a faucet, put a little bit of something in there just to color it up, and then you're holding a cup and you look like you're participating. Truth be told, after a period of time, nobody cares what you're doing because they don't even know they exist.

Right?

That's the truth of the matter, right? That's good.

Yeah.

Helping them to kind of navigate the situation of like, how do you know when you're done? How do you know? Like, are you incorporating water into, into this so that you're not so sick? Um, there's, I mean, there's some realities here. They're going to go to college and there's nobody watching.

I know. I'm trying to remember that. And I love what you said about them shutting down because we all know that they shut down and then we just know that it will come back around and the next time it comes back around, we'll have another opportunity.

And like, here's an example too for my daughter who I think is, is relatively difficult. And when she's not ready to talk, she's not ready to talk. And just saying, well, I'm here to listen when you're ready to talk. And just keep inviting, keep inviting, keep inviting. It's very frustrating. I can't tell you how many times I'm like, ugh, I just feel like I can't get, I can't do anything right as a parent. I can't tell you how many nights I've kind of gotten into bed feeling like I failed today. I didn't do the right thing. I lost my temper. I said something I shouldn't have said. And so I'll go back and apologize, but I still feel like a piece of garbage. Um, or just feeling like I couldn't get through to you today. I couldn't connect with you today and I feel awful and I wanna help you because I know you're hurting and I don't know what to do to help you. And I'll sometimes say that like, you're hurting. I know you're hurting. I know you don't wanna talk about that and I respect it. I just wanna let you know that I want to help. And that's it. That's all. I feel like some, that's all I can do. And then I go into my room, I'm like, I suck.

Well, well, and the interesting thing is, is that my kids said, why do you always blame yourself for everything? And do you notice that we do? Because I'm listening to you. We are all so hard on ourselves. And I always tell moms when we're hard on ourselves, it means we're a really good mother.

I like that.

I'm gonna go with that. So go with that. Any, any last words of teenage advice before I let you go?

Um, your self-care as a parent is really important. So make sure you're giving yourself time to exercise however you want. Not, not what I'm saying, we all need to be super buff and toned. That's not where I'm going. It's this, we need, we need an outlet for releasing a lot of this anxiety that of our own that's being triggered, of us absorbing our kids' emotions. I don't know about you. I absorb their emotion when they're in a bad mood. Yes. I feel myself absorbing it and I have to go and like take a walk or I have to like listen to some music or something. I need to separate myself out. Having alone time is really important. Like even if you're in your own room and, but other people are home, there's still energy. Yes. And as parents, we pick up that energy. So going somewhere where you are out of reach of other people and especially our kids so we can decompress and regroup and reenergize our mental health is really important because we support them. And if we're not in a good place, we can't support anybody. You can, like, here's the, you know, I'm gonna say it and we've all heard it a million times. You can't fill someone else's cup if your cup is empty. And that's the honest-to-God truth. And I, I always heard it and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a big, like, workhorse. I will work and go and go and go and go until there's nothing left. And I'm always like, no, I can give a little more. I can give a little more. But lately I just feel like if I don't regroup, I am so burned out and then I'm good for no one.

Right.

So take care of yourselves.

The best advice. You had so much great advice. Can you tell everyone where to find you if they want to go hunt you down?

You can find me on my website, which is psychedconsult.com, which the practice is psychological and educational consulting. My email address is drliz@psychedconsult.com. I'm on Instagram. You can DM me. I'm on Facebook. You can instant message me. I do have the ability as a psychologist, I've got what's called a psych pack license. So I can see people via telehealth who are in some approved states. So if that's perfect, if you're looking for some parent coaching or anything like that, we can do that as well.

Well, thank you so much. You know that I love the opportunity to talk to you, so thank you for your time.

The feeling is so mutual. You make me feel valid. I'm like, you're going through that too? Thank you.

I think we both needed this today, and I really appreciate it.

My, my pleasure. Thank you.

This is Rebecca Greene reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time. This show has been produced by Market Domination LLC. To discover how you can have your own show completely done for you and turn it into a real published book and become the authority in your marketplace, go to www.marketdominationllc.com/podcastoffer.

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