Episode 320: Rediscovering Life After Kids

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am very excited today because I get to speak with Stephanie Mason Teague. Stephanie, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

Thank you, I'm excited to be here.

Uh, Stephanie has a really cool topic that I haven't covered yet, and I told her I couldn't wait to talk to her. She is a wife, she is a mom, and she is the host of the DIY video series titled Things I Forgot to Teach My Kids. She She's the founder of Empty Mess. And as I told her, she has a long, impressive bio, but I'm gonna let her tell you about her journey. So Stephanie, can you tell us about your journey and how you landed in the Empty Mess platform?

Yes. And actually, it was unexpected. I had been— I'd have had a wonderful career in many different areas. I started in flight school, learning to fly airplanes, and convinced that that was what I was gonna do. And there I met my husband, which, as we all know, that changes our lives immensely for most of us. And my priorities shifted, and I realized I really wanted to be a mom. And I had wanted to be a mom. I had wanted to be married. That was something that I always knew that I wanted. And it interrupted one path but created a new path. And I also was able to do some really great things. I was a live television host. And really enjoyed doing that. Uh, ran an independent movie theater, so I was doing some really wonderful things and building businesses as an entrepreneur and going through life so fast. Um, while I was in it, I loved being a mom, and I really gained my value from that. That was what was most important to me. I was doing these great things, but I realized When I thought about what is most important to you, it was being a mom. It was my job as a mom. And then one day it was over. And I'm like, wait a minute, what? What just happened? You know, people will tell you life moves so fast, so fast. And then as soon as you turn 50, it really speeds up. And that, that happened. Coupled with that, you know, your kids are doing what they're supposed to do. They're going to college, they're getting jobs, they're moving away. And all that was great. But I realized I was no longer sure of what my purpose was. I kind of wasn't sure what I was supposed to be doing. And I wasn't prepared for that. There was a lot of fear. There was a lot of loneliness. And you mentioned my video series, Things I Forgot to Teach My Kids. So what happened to me was I was almost debilitatingly afraid that I had forgotten to teach my kids anything useful. I understand. I really thought, oh my gosh, we were so busy doing life and all the crazy things that moms do, all the things you talk about on your podcast about rushing, rushing, rushing, going, going, going. And I, I really thought, oh my gosh, I forgot to teach them anything. How can I have sent them out into the world and they don't know how to do anything? It was irrational, but that's how I felt.

Yeah, I understand. I really do. So, so then, so tell us about Empty Mass. Tell us exactly what it is and how you help other people going through the empty nest?

Well, I realized that, of course, I did teach them things. And I could— the other fear that I had was that I was going to forget, that I was going to forget all that we had gone through and all that I had, you know, with the— for 30 years, you were mom. I was mom for 30 years. Did you ever have that fear when you were a young mom that you were going to forget your child somewhere? Yes.

Yes.

I mean, it was kind of crazy, right? But when I was a new mom, I thought, oh my gosh, I'm going to wake up and just leave the house. I'm going to forget. I'm going to leave him at home alone, or I'm going to go shopping and I'm going to forget him in the car, or I'm going to forget him in the grocery cart. It was kind of crazy, but I did. I had that fear. Well, I had the same kind of fear when the kids were not around every day. And I thought, I'm going to forget. I'm going to forget everything. And my solution to that was to write it all down, to try and remember and bring back those happy memories. And it has helped me so much because the other thing that happened when I was an empty, empty, empty nester— it's hard for me not to say empty mess. Because I really felt like I was just a mess. I was afraid, I was lonely. And then the third part of that was I was picking on my husband because he was around. He was the only one around, and it was easy to see all of the things that he did wrong.

Gotta focus on something, right?

And it was easy, right? The low-hanging fruit. And so for a number of years, we were both so focused on the kids. And this is terrible. And this is where hopefully my story is. And my story can be a bit of a cautionary tale, is that make time for each other while you're going through it. Because when you get to the point where I was and I call it my, my speed bump year, my 5-5 year, which is this year. Um, you remember, it's, it's hard to change gears. You've been going in one direction for so long, and we realized we had not— my husband and I had not made time for each other as often as we should have because we were both so focused on the kids. And so here we were the two of us, just the two of us, all the time together because we weren't going anywhere. We weren't going to the kids' events or plays or sports practice or graduations or special speeches. So we were home and I could find everything wrong with him and I made sure to tell him.

I'm sure he loved that.

Well, you can only imagine. And So I had to, I had to remember our good times together as a couple and as a family also. Um, you know, the unfortunate thing that happens to a lot of marriages at that time when the kids leave is divorce.

Very true.

And I was looking around and I could see that nearly 50% of our friends, our friends group that we had for 20 years were divorcing. And I wanted— I didn't want that to happen to us. I wanted something better for us. And so all of those things came together. First, I had to realize I was kind of a mess. I was lonely. I was afraid, almost kind of irrationally afraid, because, of course, the kids were doing what they were supposed to be doing. But I wasn't going to forget it, but I was afraid that I was. And then I was picking on my husband. And so I really was kind of a mess. And that's where Empty Mess, the phrase, came about. And I started writing. And you know what? I started to feel better just remembering it wasn't all bad. Everything my husband does wasn't bad. He does a lot of good stuff, too. Um, and then as I wrote, other women were reaching out and saying, you know what, that happened to me too, or I feel that way too. And I realized that by sharing those stories together, we could help each other, we could support one another in this new phase.

I love that. And I love that you titled it Empty Mass. I was going to ask you about the title. It's perfect. And I love that you're writing it down. You know, I started writing when my kids were tiny to help me, to help me remember and to help me cope. So I totally understand what you're saying and relate. And I know that there's so many challenges. You know, just thinking about it makes me sad. I've told you that it's going to be here before I blink, and I'm trying to treasure the chaos and I think that there's a lot of challenges that I worry about. I worry about, you know, being just my husband and I, like you said. I worry about the loneliness. I worry about finding different purposes. Like, there's so many challenges. Can you talk about the challenges and how we can overcome them?

Yes. And that— I'm still working on that. I'm going to say I'm still a work in progress because even though— and it's funny. It's amazing to me that I am still a work in progress because our kids are both out of college now. And so college took between 4 and 8 years. Both of them have professional degrees. And so really, they started moving out of the house nearly 8 years ago. But the finality of it, when they kind of stopped calling home for advice and they didn't always come home on holidays, basically they started living their own lives, which is, which is the goal that we have as parents, that our children will grow up and live great lives on their own. Secretly, I hadn't prepared for what would happen when they didn't need me anymore. And so I was, I was floundering a little bit. What is my purpose? Why? What am I supposed to do now? And for me, what has worked and what I would recommend is look back at the things that you love to do. And it was hard at first because at first my list was all the things I love to do with my children. I love to go to the beach. Well, that's because my kids love to go to the beach. I love to go to the horse stables and ride horses. That's because that's what my daughter loved to do. And so it took a little time to whittle down What is it that I— what is it that Stephanie really loves to do? Where are my happy moments? Where's my happy time? And once I started identifying that, I could find a path to a new purpose, a path to new meaning. And so for me, I realized I, I do love being outdoors, and that's probably why I love the beach with my son and love the horse stables with my daughter, because those were both outdoor things. Although the part that I love about being outdoors now is gardening. And I could find that for longevity, gardening and diet were so important, maybe even more so in this stage of my life. Or at least I felt like at least I had time to think about it. I don't know about you, but A running joke at my house was, "Kids, it's time for dinner. Get in the car." We were going to the drive-through.

I know. I work really hard to cook a lot.

I really do.

But I will tell you that when we're running between activities, every mother is doing that.

Because what else can you do? You know, and the truth is, Your kids, that's what they want anyway. And so, you know, I was trying to cook at home and trying to make healthy meals. And then when the kids didn't want to eat my healthy meals, I tried to make restaurant-type meals more healthy. Like, I was still cooking chicken fingers and french fries, but I would convince myself that somehow my homemade chicken fingers and french fries were better than McDonald's.

We all do the same thing. I just have to tell you that last night I was so exhausted. It was a rough weekend, and my daughter Ella said, oh, you went to the grocery store. Does that mean you're cooking?

Oh no.

Did you want me to order food? And she's like, always.

Exactly. Exactly. And so Part of that memory reminded me that the kids didn't like it anyway. And I probably wasn't doing any of us any favors by heating up frozen food in my own oven rather than buying it at the drive-through. But I had convinced myself that I was still cooking and somehow it was better. It's funny, you know, maybe a little delusional, but But true.

Oh my gosh. So, so talk about your marriage. We all want to hear about marriage after the kids leave. So you're left with your husband, it's just the two of you. My husband is like, I can't wait, and I'm like, oh, how can you say that? So how have you two kind of, you know, found time for each other, reconnected, all of that good stuff?

It hasn't been easy. Um, and I— it's hard to admit that because I thought I was so well adjusted. You know, I had always been, um, not in therapy, but aware of how important it is to talk about things, not to hold grudges, not to let things go on. Um, but I did. I did it in the sense that the things that I really enjoyed doing with the kids, my husband didn't always enjoy, and so he didn't come. So while we were at the stables and doing horseback riding, my husband was playing golf. And we're like, okay, well, I guess that's good because everybody's happy. We were happy. He was happy. And that went on for a number of years. And what happened was, and I think I said this in my introduction, that everything changed, but then everything was still the same in that we were home together. So everything changed, but I wanted him to suddenly change his lifestyle because he, he was happy, he was comfortable. He, you know, he went to his job, he did his thing all day, and then on weekends he went golfing and enjoyed that, and that was his routine, and watched football. And suddenly here I was saying, wait a minute, timeout, no more golf, no more football. He's like, what are you talking about? Those are my favorite things. And so it's been a challenge for us. We've had to rekindle date night and we always had date night, but I don't know about you, but somehow date night always got canceled.

That can definitely happen.

Like we were all, we would be set up and we're like, okay, you know, our New Year's resolution is we're gonna have date night every Friday night. We're always going to do it. And you know, when the kids were real little, stuff would happen. Like the babysitter would get sick or your, if your mom was babysitting, she was like, I don't want to do it. Or, or, or something would happen in that, or, or your child was sick. And so then you couldn't go. So in the early days, date night got canceled for those reasons. And then later we had competitions or there were things that needed to happen on sports practice or horse shows or, or things like that. And so date night kept getting canceled. And then when it was just the two of us, gosh, we got lazy. I'm not sure how that happened, but there's really no other word for it. We're, you know, both still working, and we would get to Friday night, the end of the week, and we kind of just look at each other from our, you know, respective spaces on the couch, you know, and we're, we're already in the motion recliners at 5:30, you know, we had just gotten home from a long day of work, and he's like, Okay, well, do you really want to go out? And I'd be like, well, now that you say it like that, I guess not. But that wasn't good. It wasn't good for us. And so it's taken a little time for us to turn the TV off and really spend some time together, whether we're just eating at the dinner table, because gosh, that was one of the first things that left. I was kind of a stickler when the kids were home. We are going to eat dinner at the dinner table, and we did. And so now that the kids were gone, we were like, oh well, let's eat dinner, you know, in front of the TV. Let's eat dinner on the couch because we can. We don't have to worry. The kids aren't going to mess the room up. And what we found was it was really easy to slump into that new routine that really wasn't good for us. And we had to work on it.

You know, these are good warnings for all of us, right? What to do, what not to do.

I hope so.

You're teaching me a lot. And I think that, you know, as you're talking about this and, you know, we have our husbands who are wonderful and we're lucky to have them, but we're all going to miss our kids when they're not here. So can you talk about the loneliness? And how you work on that part of it.

That has been really hard, and I hadn't expected it. You know, as moms, when the kids were still home, my friends group were my kids' friends' moms. So, you know, I was Derek's mom for a long time. I was Maddie's mom for a long time. You know, sometimes you don't even get introduced with your own name.

That's true.

You know, especially with the— and sometimes the kids will do that too. They'll be like, hey, Maddie's mom. You're like, yeah, that's me. Um, and I had my— those were my friends groups too. And so we did things together. Now I've had a wonderful book club that I've been in for, oh my gosh, nearly 20 years. And that's been a saving grace. Although even then we formed that book club out of a, out of a playgroup. And so we were all getting together as playgroup, and then we thought, okay, let's do a book club. Let's read a book together. And we started doing that, which was wonderful. But a lot of my friends told me how excited they were that their kids were going off to college and then how excited they were and how happy they were. And I kind of thought there was something wrong with me. And so I wasn't sharing with them how lonely that I felt. And because I thought, gosh, there must be something wrong with me because all of my friends are telling me how happy they are and how great it is that their, their house is easier to clean and that they can cook dinner or they cannot cook dinner. They can decide what they want to do. They're back in control of their own schedule. And what I felt was a little bit out of control. I felt like I kind of wasn't sure what to do because it was true. I didn't really have to cook dinner. I didn't really have to get up on Saturday morning because we didn't have anywhere to go, really. You know, there wasn't a sports practice or game or anything we had to go to. And so I started thinking there must be something wrong with me because I can't figure out what to do without this other purpose. And I was, I, I felt really lonely, but then I was embarrassed because I didn't want to tell my friends because I did, I thought they would, you know, they wouldn't understand it because they were so happy and I wasn't. So again, I started writing it down and I, I had to remind myself of all the fun things that I used to do. And which ones of those did I want to still do? And that was how I have overcome my loneliness. And I still have it. But I also had to be reminded to call my friends. And I didn't have to share with them how lonely I was, or, you know, it didn't need to be a therapy session with my friends, I could call them and just ask them to do something. Yeah. Do you want to go to a movie? Do you want to go shopping? Those are things that we used to do when we had the kids in tow. Why did we have to quit doing them now? And some of that, it took a little time. I had to kind of go through those processes of realizing that what was happening to me was loneliness, because at first I wasn't sure.

Oh, I totally relate to everything you're saying. I have so many friends that I'm thinking of who would be both of us, so, or who would be us and your friends. So you and I, I would be you, and I, and I can think of the friends who would be like us, and I can also think of the friends who would be excited. So Can we talk? Can we talk about the excited friends? Because I want to learn from them. I did too. What— I mean, what was so exciting for them? What were they looking forward to?

So several of my friends are traveling, which I want to do that so bad. I just can't figure out how to make it work. Yeah. And some of it is due to work, the responsibilities of my job. Are such that I still have a limited number of vacation days, but, um, I need to plan to travel. And I'll see— I have kind of a love-hate relationship with social media because it's easy to, to go on to social media and, and feel like everyone's life is better than mine and all my friends are having more fun. But sometimes it's true. And I will say that my friends that have embraced their empty nest and have done things like traveling, they have found their happiness. And I want to do more of that. And for them, it was traveling. I have another friend that she actually inspired me to do some gardening. She has turned her health around. She, like many moms, was not taking very good care of herself when the kids were home. Gosh, do you remember the days when we felt like we didn't even have time to take a shower? Oh my gosh. Yes, that sounds crazy now, but I can remember those days when we felt like as moms we couldn't even take a shower. How in the heck were we going to find time to eat fresh vegetables, fresh fruits and vegetables? And exercise. That just was completely impossible at one stage in my life. Well, she has really embraced that now, and she has turned her life around with more energy, better memory. She's lost weight. She— her outlook has changed so much with just making some simple changes that seemed impossible before, but that now she's really embraced. And And it was her happy— it was her happy place too. She had forgotten how much she enjoyed gardening and she encouraged me to try it. I had forgotten the same thing. And so there, looking at how other moms have made the transition has been so helpful to me. And then couple that with my memories of my happy times, my good stories has really helped to turn things around.

That's wonderful. And I wanna tell you that when I look at social media and I feel twinges of, you know, jealousy or their life is better than my life, if I ever feel that, my signal to myself now is, okay, what about that is making you jealous? And you wanna know what's so funny is it's usually travel. Ah.

We all have this. Well, I would say most of us would love to see the world.

Yeah.

But for one reason or another, we convince ourselves we can't.

Well, yeah.

And it's that self-talk, that negative self-talk that puts us, brings us down, that keeps us tied to whatever that is. And trying to overcome that it's, it's been a challenge and it's still a work in progress for me. But, um, I can't wait.

Well, and I love that you say that you're still figuring it out because I think that we're always still figuring things out, right? I mean, I don't think we ever have things totally figured out. Now there's a practical side that I'm curious about with the empty nest. So I'm thinking about my children's bedrooms, 3 bedrooms that are taken up, which I'm happy to give them. You know, I want them in their bedrooms. But when they leave, you know, the playroom changes, the bedrooms change. What are the practical sides to the empty nest? How have you kind of maybe changed your house?

So this is funny because one of the things I did as a newbie empty nester was I started looking at what is everybody else doing? Because I found that I'm like, well, if I'm obviously doing it wrong because of all of the things we talked about, you know, I was lonely, I was sad. I was sitting at home every weekend feeling sorry for myself. Normal.

You were normal.

Right. And I'm like, okay, what is everyone else doing? And a lot of people immediately turned their kids' bedrooms into something else. Maybe they turned it into the exercise room, or if they have 2 or 3 bedrooms, they turn 1 room into an exercise room, 1 room into an artist studio, or maybe you even turned a bedroom into a gift wrapping station because you always wanted a gift wrapping station, which I did. You know, isn't that— if you don't have space to wrap gifts, it's just not as much fun. But, um, I have left their two bedrooms as bedrooms. Mm-hmm. I did. Um, and this is part of my process. That's where we are right now. I wasn't ready to turn those two rooms, their bedrooms, into something else yet. I understand. And I, you know, part of me is like, well, maybe they're going to come home to visit and then they're going to have a nice room to stay in. And they, they have, they do. And then I'm glad that they have a nice room to stay in, their room. And I just wasn't ready to turn it into something else. Not yet. That doesn't mean I never will, but it's okay to have your own process. Absolutely. So much of what I was going through in the beginning, I was comparing myself to everyone else. You know, why aren't they sad? Why aren't they unhappy? Why aren't they lonely? And maybe they were, but what they were sharing was that they were loving life and everything was great. And that included things like, I turned her bedroom into a gym and it's Fabulous. And I was like, okay, well, that, that wasn't going to work for me because then I felt guilty. We all know mom guilt. Well, for me, the mom guilt didn't go away just because the kids went away. In fact, in some ways it, it was worse because I felt guilty, like this job that I thought I was so good at, that I put my all into I started second-guessing it. I started thinking, oh my gosh, what if I really wasn't very good at it? And what if I sent the kids out there and I forgot to teach them anything meaningful? So that mom guilt had really started to set in, and it was irrational. It didn't make sense because both of my children are very accomplished. They've done so well. They're employed. The joke is they didn't come home. After school to live at home because they had nothing else to do. They are successful. They're professionals. They did exactly what we want them to do. Yes. But somehow I still had mom guilt.

Oh, instead of congratulating yourself.

Exactly. Exactly. And you know what? Don't we do that as moms? We congratulate our kids and we remind our kids it's okay to fail. That they don't have to be the best at everything, that it's okay to try something and fail, then try something else. But taking my own advice was really hard, and I, I wasn't succeeding at that. I was kind of wallowing a little bit. And so one thing I could control was not changing their room into the home gym or the gift wrapping station, that I was going to keep it as their room, at least for now.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I will tell you that my mom did the same thing and, and my brother does not live in the same town as us and comes back and uses the two bedrooms with his kids. So with his family. So she still has the bedroom set up. I mean, they need somewhere to sleep.

Exactly. See? Oh, good. I'm glad to hear that. So now I feel a little better.

Absolutely. Absolutely. My wheels were turning as you were talking, and I was like, well, yeah, they might need a bed, right?

I mean, I guess when your kids come home, my friends must put them on the couch, which is probably okay, but this works for me. And I'm in Florida. I don't think I said that. The other— I always thought people would come visit all the time because we're in Florida, and they kind of have, but not really. So now I just tell all of my friends and family, I'm like, yep, you can still come because now I actually have space for you.

That's wonderful. Oh, Florida sounds so good. I'm in Buffalo, New York.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, this time of year, Buffalo is probably pretty freezing cold.

Pretty cold and dreary. And yeah, I dream of Florida. So, so what is something that you didn't teach your kids that you can recommend that we teach our kids while they're still home with us?

Time management. And I thought I taught them time management, but I realized that the time management lessons that I was teaching them was always— it had to do with school. Almost always it had to do with school because that was their job at that time. That was the most important thing. And then I always wasn't teaching it very well. Like I admitted to, we had dinner at the drive-through more often than we should have because I wasn't managing our time very well as we were running, running, running. But the ability to be self-motivated is a huge part of time management. One of my kids really loved to hit the snooze and really had trouble getting out of bed. And You know, I came up with all kinds of crazy things to try and get her out of bed. I would warm up her clothes in the clothes dryer, and then I'd say, okay, the clothes are dry. I mean, the clothes are warm. So if you get up right now and put them on, they'll be toasty warm. And so she would get out of bed for that. But what would have been more lasting is to teach her how to motivate herself, teach her how to manage her time in such a way that it was meaningful to her and she did it for herself, not to please me. Because then once they got out of the house, there are so, so many choices that they have to make and time management and doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because you might get in trouble or you might get caught.

Really good advice. Yes, really good advice. We don't think about that, and we are so focused on school right now. It's all about school and the activity.

Yes, yes. And then as they continue in school, when they get in high school and college, you're talking about the resume, right? Heck, some, some communities you have to have a resume to get into kindergarten, unfortunately. But it's really true when you're looking at high school programs or academies and then colleges. And so we were really encouraged, our kids, to pick something, pick something because it'll look good on your resume. Just pick something. Just join a club. Just do this. Just do that because you have to do it to be competitive. And what I should have been saying is, what do you enjoy doing and why do you enjoy doing it? Because that, that might have helped— that will help them throughout their life. Because once they're vested, once they're empowered in those decisions as a mom, you're not having to force them to do it.

Really good. We're going through a piece of that right now. So I'm, I'm, I'm writing this down. Oh my goodness. So what do you think that you like best about having an empty nest?

Well, now that I'm working into my happy place, it's having some time to do those things I always wanted to do.

That's awesome.

And so in some ways, it's kind of coming full circle because that's what I said to myself when the kids were starting to leave and starting to, you know, they were moving out and not coming back as often. I said to myself, oh, great. Now I have time to do the things I love to do. It took me a little while to give myself permission to do them. For quite a long time, a little bit too long, several years, I was feeling guilty about spending an afternoon watching a movie. I felt like, oh, I should be doing something. I should be doing this, or I should be doing that. I was feeling guilty doing something just purely for myself because I enjoyed doing it. And here I didn't, I didn't have anyone watching me. I didn't have anyone judging me. I was doing all of this to myself. And it took me a little while to realize that I had to give myself permission to make a change in my life. So while I was struggling to figure out what is my purpose now that the kids are gone, was, did any of it matter? First, I was fearful. I'm going to forget everything. And if I can't remember it, then it's almost like it didn't happen. And then a whole phase of my life didn't matter. And I was really— I was stuck. I was striking that chord over and over and over again. And it's taken me a little while, but learning how to spend time with myself And then I realized I had to do that before anyone else would want to spend any time with me. If I didn't enjoy being with me, who else was going to enjoy being with me? Nobody. Really good advice.

Really good advice. What about staying connected to the kids? How do you stay connected?

This one is— I'm— we're still trying to figure this one out too, because I don't know about your kids, but my kids don't like talking on the phone.

Right.

And I like talking on the phone. I just, I'm like, call me already because I just want to, I, you know, I, I say, I can hear it in your voice if you're really happy. You know, if they type, if they type out the words, I'm happy, but then you talk to them on the phone, you're like, okay, what's really going on? Let's, you know, tell me what's happening. Um, but they don't really like it. They don't like to talk on the phone. They don't have time. And then what kept happening is Um, when they would call me, I didn't have time.

That's funny. Yeah.

And I was at work or I was in a meeting or something, so I didn't pick up. So then they turned that around and they go, you tell me to call you, but then you never pick up the phone when I call. And I'm like, well, okay. A little bit of, you know, a little, a little thought going into the time that you're calling me at 10 o'clock at night. I'm asleep.

Yes.

And you know, at 10 o'clock in the morning, I'm at work. So both of those times I cannot pick up your phone call. So we've, we've kind of come to a happy, happy place. We're doing a group, a group text so we can kind of stay in touch with one another. They love texting. I'm trying to learn to love it.

Better than nothing, right?

That's kind of how I feel about it. It's better than nothing. But oh my gosh, the emojis and the whole emoji language. I can't do it. I know. And now I'm afraid I'm going to use the wrong emoji and say something I didn't intend to say. So, you know, I'll use a smiley face and a thumbs up and that's it.

I get it. I totally get it. Oh my gosh, this is so funny. And what's funny is that my mom just wants to text me. Is that hysterical?

Your mom? That's great. My mom refuses to text. And so It's funny though, that's how, you know, remembering our stories and kind of thinking about where we are, it was helpful to put myself back in my shoes as the daughter. Yes. And I was really looking at how I interacted with my mom. And, um, and now I'm like, oh gosh, Mom, I was not very nice. And, and she's like, well, you know, we— you were going— you were growing up. And I thought, yeah, but I just wasn't very nice. I, you know, she— I, I didn't always want her advice. I didn't welcome it. I do now. But there was that time, and that helped me to remember there was a time when I wanted nothing to do with my mother's advice. I need— I needed to figure it out on my own. And that— we've got to give that to our kids too.

Yeah.

That phrase helicopter parenting. I'd like to say that I wasn't a helicopter parent, but judge otherwise. We've got to let them figure things out on their own and they'll come back again. Because just like I know now how much I need my mom and how much I value her advice and my dad and how much I value their life experience. There's going to come a time when my kids will feel that way too.

Yeah.

And I just have to be patient. And rather than feeling sad and lonely while that transition period is happening for them, I can embrace all of those happy memories and remember my relationship with my mom And that gives me a peace knowing that it's not always gonna be this way.

That is so true. And every time, you know, I have teenagers and every time they roll their eyes or don't wanna talk to me, I take myself right back there and totally relate to them. So it's really good advice. Get in our kids' shoes, understand what it's like. And I also remember how much confidence it gave me to figure things out by myself.

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Knowing that you can figure it out, that you don't have to rely on your mom or someone else. I did say, I do kind of jokingly say I was replaced by Google.

Yep, that's true.

But I kind of was. You too. But that's okay. Google's pretty amazing. I mean, isn't it amazing the technology we have now? That our kids grew up with. They're, you know, it's second nature to them where I still don't remember to look things up. I'll be like, I don't know. And someone says, well, why don't you look it up? I'm like, oh yeah, I guess, I guess I could. So yes, most of us moms will— there'll be a period where we're completely replaced by Google. Our kids are going to figure it out on their own. But there are some things that you just need your mom. And it will come full circle and it is meaningful and it is purposeful. Everything you're going through now will come full circle. And that's where the empty, empty mess part of my life is right now.

I love that. And what always makes me feel better is that I still need my mom. We do.

Yeah. And thank goodness that, you know, I still have my mom and, and my dad. For a long time, I spent a great deal of time with my grandma and just looking back at the stories, the things I learned from my, my grandma. We would, we might call them ancient arts right now, like how to sew.

Yes.

You know, how to sew a button, that kind of shirt. So you were talking about what do you put in your videos? Sometimes it's simple things like that. Like, I don't remember if I ever showed my son how to sew a button back on his own shirt. So I can make a video and then he can watch it. You know, and then my daughter called one time and, and she says, Mom, I don't have anything to wear. And I said, what are you talking about? She goes, well, all of my pants need to be ironed. Like, well, iron them. She goes, I don't know how. I'm like, okay, what do you mean you don't know how to iron a pair of pants? You know, I bet she could Google it, but yeah, I can also do a video and then it's fun and then it's, it's something awesome.

Oh, I love that.

You know, those are some of the simple things that the kids have called and kind of shared with that they weren't confident in how to do something, and that's an easy video to make. So I've had fun with that.

Such a good idea. So I've asked you so many questions. Is there anything else that you want to share that I didn't ask you?

Oh gosh, it has been so fun to talk with you today, and it just reminds me how much I, I loved being a mom And I've enjoyed listening to your podcast and such great advice that you have for moms that we didn't have when I was a mom, honestly. But just what I have learned from transitioning my empty nest, and yes, it really is still an empty mess, but it's okay that it is. It's okay to embrace your feelings at the time. And don't feel guilty about it. You know, we all reach this stage in different ways, and what's working for your friend may not be working for you, and that's okay. But also that it's important to choose to remember your happy memories because that is what brought me so much comfort. And I think in talking with other moms that are also empty nesters and feeling a little bit out of control, that remembering those happy memories is a great, a great foundation to build your next chapter. And then have some fun. It's okay. Just have some fun, will you? It's, it's okay for you to have some fun. And it's time. In fact, I like to say that this empty mess phase of my life, it's actually, it's our time to shine.

Yes. Yes. Your time to have fun and take time for yourself. What is that like?

Absolutely. I'll let you know when I actually accomplish it. I am accomplishing it. You are. You are. We have to be purposeful in those things. And it was so easy to be purposeful when our job was caring for someone else. We need to take that same enthusiasm, that same dedication, and care for ourselves and our marriage. A marriage doesn't just happen. And we, we have to— and, you know, when you say work on your marriage, a lot of people have a negative thought of that. They're like, oh, that means something's wrong. Not necessarily. It just means that you have to be purposeful with it. You can't just wait for it to happen because it never will. And have some fun together and find something new. Find something new, or using those great memories, go back to things you used to love to do together.

So much good advice.

So much.

I took notes. Can you tell everybody where they can find you?

Yes. So I write a weekly column on Substack, and you can find my weekly column at newsletter.emptymess.com.

Awesome. Well, I cannot thank you enough for all of your time, all of your wisdom, and for being vulnerable and really sharing with us the good and the bad. And I really appreciate that.

Thank you so much. I've enjoyed talking to you. It's been a great morning.

This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast.

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Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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