Episode 322: The Non Anxious Leader

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Winey Plousa Podcast, and, um, I'm laughing at how excited I am for our guest today. I get to talk to Jack Shatama today. Jack, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Oh, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to talk family stuff.

We're gonna, we're gonna jump into family stuff, and I want to tell everyone that you are an author, teacher, speaker and coach, among many other things. He is a very busy man, and when I heard that he is the Non-Anxious Leader, I knew I had to meet him. So tell us about your background and what led you to become the Non-Anxious Leader.

Well, and actually, uh, the website, The Non-Anxious Leader, is for other people to become a non-anxious leader. I'm still working on it myself. But, uh, I— so the, the background is, um, I went into pastoral ministry as a United Methodist pastor back in 1991. And while I was in seminary, I encountered Generation to Generation: Family Process in Church and Synagogue by Edwin Friedman, which is— it's— it takes, uh, Murray Bowen's family systems theory and applies it to congregational life. And it became really clear to me that this was important stuff, and I've been studying it for 30 years trying to apply it. But it's, uh, it's Bowen and Friedman who use the term non- anxious presence. And, you know, just when I say that, people just relax because everybody wants— in fact, my latest book, I'll plug that, is Everybody Loves a Non-Anxious Presence, right? Because people want to be around that. And so, um, I've mostly applied it to leadership in the, uh, congregational and nonprofit world, but it also applies to families because a parent is a leader of the family, right? Uh, we've raised 4 children my wife and I, and the youngest is now 30. He'll be in March 32. The oldest is now 40. And, you know, I know how challenging parenting can be. And, and this has really helped me in that respect. Even though I'm still working on it.

I think we're always working on everything every day. It's, it's, we never like achieve perfection, we just continue to work.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So can you tell us what a non-anxious leader is and what the qualities of that are?

Okay. So there are essentially two elements that I, what I like to try to do is simplify it. Okay. And so the first is what we call self-definition. Okay. Self-definition is knowing your own goals and values. It's knowing who you are, what you're about, what matters to you. And so that's, it's really important if you, If you don't know that, you're just going to be all over the place, right?

Yeah.

The other component is emotional connection. And so emotional connection is being able to relate to others in a way that you show you care for them. However, you're not trying to tell them how to live their life. You learn, I'm all I'm going to worry about is how I live my life. And I'm going to give them the freedom to live their life even as I show them I care. And I think that's probably the hardest thing to do as a leader and a parent is to care about somebody else without wanting to get in their business and tell them how to do it, show them how to do it, or what we would call over-functioning. So an unanxious leader is somebody who can do those things because people want to follow somebody who knows where they're going but gives them the choice to follow. The way I like to say it is non-anxious leaders say what they believe while giving others the freedom to disagree. And when you do that, you create what what Bowen would call emotional space, healthy emotional space for the other to choose. And nobody likes to be told what to do. So if you tell them they have to do it, they're going to push back. But if you say, you know, this is where I think we should be going, and then you say, and if you want to follow, come along, you are much more likely to inspire people to go with you.

Okay, so you have my wheels turning. And so my question for you is, I'm not even talking about my children, but what if someone's behavior, what they're doing, causes— I allow it to cause me anxiety because I don't agree with it?

Yeah, well, the first thing we teach is try to figure out how to regulate that anxiety, right? Because it usually happens in one of two ways. It's one is what we call reactive, where you get defensive or aggressive. What do you mean? What are you talking about? And the other is where you get adaptive, where you actually just give in. You don't do anything about it. You let it slide. And when we tend to be adaptive, over time we get resentful. And why are we resenting them when we're the ones who are not acting? When somebody else is actually functioning in a way that makes us anxious, the first thing we have to do is say, what's going on inside of me, right? And then how do I want to respond? You know, what, what, uh, and I'm upset that you turned that in late, uh, and it's made things difficult for me. And so you're not telling them what they're— that you're not telling them they're bad, you're not telling them, um, you know, you're not blaming, you're just saying, this is how I'm feeling, I'm upset about this, um, and, and, you know, I want us to figure out a way that we can avoid this in the future, right?

I love that.

Yeah, it's a non-anxious presence, right?

Non-blaming language too.

Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Because we can get reactive and not think before we speak. So the goal is the opposite.

Right, right. In fact, one of the chapters in my latest book is Your First Instinct Is Usually Wrong. Yes, because it's actually a biological evolutionary response. We are trained to respond automatically to survive. And nowadays, the threats that we perceive are not really real threats. But we actually respond automatically, and it's usually not helpful. There are things that are developed in our childhood that are coping mechanisms and usually not helpful.

That is such good advice. And I know everyone listening wants to learn to self-regulate better, including me. So can you give us some healthy steps to self-regulate?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so let me, let me explain the, the, the, science behind that first. They call it the amygdala hijack, and the amygdala is the primitive part of your brain that governs your automatic responses, which is also where your habits are formed. So, um, and when you are growing up, you are learning these responses, these, you know, fight back or hide or freeze or give in, whatever. You're learning these responses. And so, um, when you perceive a threat, um, the stimulus actually bypasses your neocortex. It goes right to your amygdala so that you can respond quickly, right?

Makes sense.

And that's why your first instinct is usually wrong. So the idea of self-regulating is to get out of your primitive brain and get back into your thinking brain, your neocortex. The best way to do that is just not do anything. Just train yourself to not respond. And over time you can do that. One of the best ways to do that is to breathe deeply, especially when you're feeling anxious. Breathing deeply helps you because when you're feeling anxious, it's your sympathetic nervous system that's being stimulated. And so you have cortisol and adrenaline, and that's why you want to react quickly, right? And you're breathing very, in a very shallow way. When you breathe deeply, especially if you exhale longer than you inhale, it actually transfers you to your parasympathetic nervous system. So from your, from your fight-or-flight system to your rest-and-digest system. So if you can just breathe deeply, then you can, you can get to your thinking brain because the, the The process is really to just say, okay, I'm not going to respond. What's going on in me? What's going on in here? How can I respond in ways that are in line with my values? And you would think, oh gosh, you can't do that in that amount of time. But actually, over time you can, because number one, people don't need you to respond in one second. And, and it's okay to take 5, 10, 15, even 20 seconds. You, you can even say, I need a moment to think. Um, uh, Stephen Covey uses the, um, uh, the phrase integrity in the moment of choice. Um, so that's, that's what a non-anxious leader is, because integrity means that you act in accordance with your values, right? So you're able to self-define, you know your goals and values, You, you, you know that you care about the other person, you share that, but then you're able to say, okay, this is, this is important how I respond, this is how I'm going to respond, and then you do it. Now, Family Systems Theory will tell us that, um, even getting this right 50% of the time, um, is extraordinary. In other words, at least half the time or more, we're going to respond automatically and not get it right.

So darn it.

And the average is more like a third of the time we get it right. But I think over time you can improve your averages just by learning to regulate and think more clearly. But one of the things that we teach is when things don't go right, unpack it. What happened there? What did I want to say? You know, how would I say that in the future? And then most times you can anticipate anxious situations, especially with your family and the people you work closely with, right? You, you know, going into this, okay, this is going to be tough. Uh, you can often predict how the other person is going to react, and, and so you can prepare yourself. You can say, okay, um, here, this is what I want to say. You know, I want to say, um, you know, you, you've been coming in late, and I, I really appreciate the work you do, but I'm not I'm not willing to tolerate that anymore, you know, or, you know, again, notice how it's— you're, you're saying what you believe and you're doing it in a way that shows you care, but you're not blaming or trying to define the other.

Well, and I love that you're explaining the science behind all of this and why I was being reactive, because my youngest daughter has been the fuel to me wanting to become non-anxious because we would get into these battles, and I would just react so, you know, reactively. And I wanted to do better for her, and I wanted to be a better leader for her. So it's interesting, the practice and the pausing is really helping.

Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

And, and, you know, I would say I probably spent more time— well, as much time, at least probably more time in my life practicing hard conversations with my kids than with any, you know, this is something that has to be addressed. And, and I'm the kind of guy that lets things go, but then, you know, my wife's like, we got to do something about this. And so, um, so then I would be thinking through, okay, how, you know, how, how can I say this in a way, um, that doesn't just tell them they can do anything, but at the same time sets a boundary where they have to decide what they're going to do? Yeah.

So good. I love that. And I think that I do like to let things go to keep the peace. But I, I'm almost finding that creates more anxiety.

Absolutely. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Keeping the peace does not always keep peace inside of me.

Right. In fact, the, my most recent podcast episode is on the, I can't remember the person's name, but a psychologist from Harvard Medical School. And she, she talks about how actually avoidance creates more anxiety. Than the actual, the anxiety itself.

Well, and I don't know if this was the same podcast, but you actually said one step forward, taking a step starts to rewire our brain versus avoiding it.

Right, exactly. Yes.

Yes. And I loved that. And I love your podcast. Go listen to his podcast, The Non-Anxious Leader. I found a new favorite podcast.

Yes.

So we talked about boundaries. Let's talk about differentiation because people don't know what that is. And I think that having it and having self-acceptance with it will help us with having less anxiety. Yeah.

Yeah. So, um, self-differentiation, uh, the way Friedman defines it is it's the ability to claim your own goals and values in the midst of surrounding togetherness pressure. And it's that surrounding togetherness pressure that it makes it hard because these are the norms and values of the relationship system. So if it's a family, if it, you know, you're in a family, it's like, well, uh, everybody gets a job out of high school. What are you doing wanting to go to college? You know, or everybody goes to college, what are you doing wanting to get a job? You know, um, the, the term we use is process, not content. So the emotional process is the norm, it could be any content, right? It could be going to college or not going to college. And so it's that togetherness pressure that makes it difficult to be a self, to actually define who we are. So knowing our own goals and values means, okay, I really understand who I am and what I'm about and where I want to go. And now I'm going to be able to express it. To others in the system, whether that's a family, a workplace, a congregation, and I can express it to them in a healthy way. I can tell them, you don't have to agree with me, but I want you to understand that I'm, you know, I want to go to college or I want to get a job, you know. And so when you're able to express it in that healthy way, you're likely going to get pushback.

Yeah.

And then, then that's when the non-anxious presence part is really important. It's, it's being able to stay connected emotionally and, and kind of withstand that pushback. And without necessarily giving in. And it doesn't mean you don't listen to other people. It doesn't mean you don't care about them. But it does mean that you are able to express who you are, even when there's that togetherness pressure. And togetherness pressure is not all bad. It's how communities are created, families are created, nations are created. One of the ways I like to think about it is in traditional cultures, they're very high on togetherness pressure. In other words, you must go along with the group, with the community. Disney does great movies on this, right? You must go along with the community or you're going, you're out, right? And And so it creates very stable communities, but it smothers the individual. Now, the other— on the other side is this idea of self-definition. And in our society, we're very individualistic. We have a lot of opportunity to self-define. We can be anybody we want, right? But there's— because there's not enough togetherness pressure, we can't even agree on what the truth is these days, right? And so it's chaos. There's nothing to hold us together as a nation or as a community, or perhaps as a family. So togetherness pressure is not a bad thing, but to the extent that it keeps us from being the person that we believe we should be, then we have to learn how to engage it in a healthy way. How to say, you know, Mom and Dad, I know you want me there at Christmas, but I'm going to go to my partner's family this year. The examples just go on and on and on about how we face the togetherness pressure, and then how are we going to stand up in a healthy way to it.

Such a good example. So what would be an example of too much togetherness, lack of differentiation in a family?

Yeah, so you can go back to that holiday example, right? Nobody is afraid to say to mom or dad that they're not going to come home. And so they just come home and they put their relationship at work, at risk. Yeah, you know, that, that important relationship to them. Some of the things like, we've always— we were— this is how we do things, right? So going back to the college example, that's, that's how it can work in a family. How, how we raise children. You know, do we punish or do we not? You know, how we handle money. And so the biggest challenge with couples is that when they come together, they actually have two different sets of norms from two different relationship systems. And the conflict, the tension comes when it's like, what do you mean you're letting the dog sit on the couch? Dogs don't sit on the couch. They go outside. And so they don't even realize oftentimes that it's these different norms that are coming in contact. And what I advise people when they're going through this is it's not about what one system or another system does, and neither is really right or wrong. It's what you decide together. Okay, you're now your own system and you have to decide. And that means you might get pressure from one or the other or both. Right? And, and that then self-differentiation is, is saying, uh, in fact, you know, my mom, she's 100, she lives with us, and when my son's dog jumps up on the couch, she's like, he's on the couch, and I'm like, Mom, it's okay, we let her on the couch, you know?

So, oh my God, she's 100?

Yeah, she's 100.

Yeah, yeah, that is amazing. Yeah, well I'm laughing at your examples because my husband comes from a house where there was no fighting, no raised voices. I come from a house where you yell, you get it out, and you move on. And it was very interesting bringing those two houses together.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's kind of similar to our family too. So the one who wants to have it out is usually the pursuer, right? We need to talk about this. And the other just wants to bury it and forget about it. Right?

Oh, stuffing, stuffing of feelings. I don't, neither, neither. Listen, neither is right. I feel like there's a right in the middle.

Mm-hmm. Sure.

Right.

Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely.

So mindfulness is one of my favorite words, and I know it makes us less anxious. How can we all achieve more mindfulness in our lives?

Um, I, I think it, it takes, uh, um, practice. So, um, you know, mindfulness meditation is a form of practice. Um, I'm actually engaged in something called positive intelligence, which is, uh, there's a book called Positive Intelligence written by Shirzad Chamine out of Stanford. Um, and positive intelligence is kind of taking mindfulness but actually being able to put it into practice in a real world. So not just sitting in a room, in a quiet room, And, you know, the kind of the basic principle I understand from mindfulness is accepting the present without judgment. Right. And so when you are able to just say, okay, what's going on here? What's going on in me? What do I hear or see coming from the other person? Then you're in a mindful state, right? You're not saying they're bad. You're not saying you're bad or I'm better than them, or I can't believe they're acting like this. You're just trying to accept what's going on. And actually, Positive Intelligence teaches things like rubbing your two fingers together and focusing on those sensations. What it does is it kind of gets you out of your head and allows you to just observe, right? You practice observing, and you can even do that in the moment, right? Just that's what that deep breathing does. Because what all you're trying to do is just process the moment and observe rather than respond. And once you process the moment and observe, then you can attach meaning to it for yourself, and so that then you can respond in the way you want. And, you know, it sounds like a lot, and, and I think it's just like anything else, you practice it over time, you make mistakes, you get better. But over time, you do you do get better. One of my favorite stories is, I do work for a couple of regions of the United Methodist Church. And there was a series of town halls that the bishop was doing across the areas. And the person I relate to called me and said, Bishop wants to know how many town halls you're going to be attending. I was like, I started panicking. I'm like, I don't have any on my calendar. And it's like, you know, my react— my, I'm kind of adaptive. My reaction was going to be, oh well, okay, I'll be there. You know, that would— I'm, you know, I want to, I want to please the, please the bishop. Um, but I was able to pause and I was able to think, okay, what's, what's important to me? I do want to be a team player, but at the same time, um, if I go to 9 meetings over the course of the next 3 weeks, it's gonna— I'm not gonna get anything done that I need to get done. Right? These are almost day-long meetings. And so I was able to get to the point where I said, because I thought this through, what's important to me. I said, um, I hadn't planned on attending any, but if Bishop wants me to be there, I will be there. And she said, oh no, she just wanted to know. And, and see, all that anxiety was going on in me. I felt togetherness pressure, together pressure to go along.

Yeah.

And it could have easily ended differently. I could have easily just said I'll be there without thinking through what was important to me and being able to express it in a way that mattered. And if the person I was talking to said, yes, Bishop does want you to be there, I would have done it, you know. But anyway, so that's a good example.

No, because we make up so many things in our heads, right? And we don't always talk about it, right?

Or think it through, right?

Yes, yes.

Tell me what you're asking here. I'm not sure what you're asking, right? That's, that's a good one.

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Yeah. Yeah.

I know we make up stories in our heads. We cause ourselves anxiety. And what I'm hearing from a lot of what you're saying is that my attaching judgment to things throughout the day is what's causing anxiety.

Yes. Right. Right. We, we make assumptions about what other people's intents are. We think people care. I did an episode on the spotlight effect. We think people are thinking about us more than they actually are.

I love that. You know, we're not that important.

We're not that important. Yeah, they don't really care about us that much. And so it's really to try to get out of that frame of mind and just think through, okay, what's important to me here? And how would— what kind of response would be in line with that?

I love it. I love all of this advice. I'm soaking it all in, and I bet you everyone listening is too. So I would love to hear if— I don't want to put you on the spot, but if you can think about, as a parent with your children, a time where you were proud of your non-anxious presence and a time when you were not.

Ah, let me see. Um, well, I think, uh, several of my children bounced back. In other words, they, they went to college and then they came to live at home for a while, and, and that's a challenge. Um, and I, and I think I, I, I learned that I couldn't, I couldn't try to push them out, right? Um, And I suppose if I tried to tell them how to live their life, they would, they would have wanted to move out faster. I doubt it. But, you know, I think I learned in those moments how to try to treat them as adults and set boundaries with them. You know, not all the time. They're your— at least for me, they're my kids. I, I'm a sucker for them. But, you know, to try to set boundaries in ways that they, they could learn to mature. So I think, I think that's one of them. Yeah, the least, the least proud moment I think is, um, uh, it's actually legendary in our, our history, family history. Uh, we— my youngest son had a, a friend who was homeless. His parents couldn't care for him. Um, he was going into 9th grade, and so he came to live with us, and we actually got legal custody of him for, for a while. Um, but I think in the middle of 10th grade, he started to act out, and he and I started really getting into it. And, um, so I was being really reactive. I was, I was not thinking through. I was not responding in the way that I, I would want to respond. And, and we got into it really intensely one time, yelling and screaming inside the house to outside the house. I think he went out and I pursued him. And, um, and, and I said, you know, I said something about, you know, you know I'm right about this, or something like that. And he, he said, of course you're right, you're Jack Shatama. And you know what I realized is sometimes saying what you believe in a passionate way comes across as arrogance. And so my family laughs that I'm Jackson Tull.

I love it. I think it's a high expectation to be you.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's not really like that, but, you know, I think I think that you have to be aware of those things. I think another moment that came recently was I was with— I think this is more a proud moment than not a proud moment, but it's a little bit of both. I was playing with one of my grandchildren. They're like almost 3, and it's a puzzle with both letters and pictures. So there's a picture of a balloon for B, and you It's a train puzzle. You have to do them in order. And so he's going through this and my wife is telling him to look for pictures. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, let him look for the letters first. And my one child who's the parent of this grandchild said, this is why we were afraid to make a mistake when we were growing up. And I was like, oh.

Oh, gosh.

And, but, but so here's, I was, it was kind of a proud moment, because at least they told me, right? You know, maybe they weren't ever able to tell me. Not a happy moment, though, either, because it made me realize that, you know, maybe sometimes I come across the way I don't want to come across, which is—

Oh, how I know, I know how true that is. Yeah. My, my son, was talking about, I don't know, was it a girl? Whatever the conversation was in the car. And I was like, how come you don't tell me things? And he goes, because you get so emotional and there's so many emotions. And I was like, okay, so he's telling me to tone it down.

Yes. Yes. I mean, our kids never told us anything. And in fact, we used to have a saying, kiss of death. Because if they were dating somebody and we liked them, it was the kiss of death.

Oh, gosh. Oh, my gosh. That's good to know. That's good to know. So what would you say that you like best about what you do?

I think it's helping people to become their best self. And what Family Systems Theory teaches is that if in a leadership situation outside the home, that what, what you've learned in your family of origin actually has more to do with it than anything else. So how you respond as a leader, uh, really, uh, is something that's a part of you and from your family of origin. And when you start to go and, and unpack that and do what we call reworking relationships, so The one I like to use is, who's the person that in your family of origin that when you get a text message or a voicemail, your anxiety goes up, right? There's— there are people like that, maybe more than one, right? Um, so that's a place to start, and you start to work through, okay, how am I going to respond differently that's in a more— in a more differentiated way? And as you do that, you actually grow in your ability to be differentiated elsewhere. And, you know, I've seen this work with, um, I do coaching, so with tech executives, with pastors, with nonprofit leaders, and with parents. So the idea is that when you, when you're— you start to do that work, your family of origin work, you learn what makes you tick without blaming yourself and without blaming others, because, you know, either one is not helpful. It's, it's just to understand that, oh, this is how, this is how things work. This is what's going on inside of me. And then you can start to do things differently. And so I love the fact that I've seen families change, I've seen churches change, I've seen companies change, because one person starts to do that work for themselves. And, and it, it does kind of have a bit of a contagious effect.

100%. And I'm curious if any organization, family, person stands out to you where you saw— I mean, don't, obviously don't use names, but you saw them go from A to B and it was such a positive change that you were proud of.

Oh yeah, I think of one particular person that was an executive in a startup and there was a lot of anxiety going in in the leadership team. Um, and, uh, but we did the family of origin work first, right? And, um, that, that helped him to actually take healthy stands with, um, people in, in that he worked with. Uh, and see, one of the things that you, uh, we— you become aware of is that when somebody makes you anxious, you want distance from them. And that's the worst thing you can do. That what you want to do is you want to stay connected emotionally with, without allowing your anxiety to make things worse. That's a hard thing to do. But when you do that family of origin work, you start to figure out, okay, this is what's behind that, and it makes it easier to do. And as this person did that family of origin work, and they started talking to relatives and learning more about what made parents tick and grandparents tick and aunts and uncles tick. And, and over time, they became the center of the family. Like, cousin calls and said, can you give me advice about this? Or da da da. Everybody loves a non-anxious presence. It was, it was amazing to me how the work that this person did on their own helped both their leadership in the company, but also helped their family in general, and actually helped heal some pretty conflictual relationships. Not, not because they tried to change those people, but because of their own presence, and those people then over time change themselves. It's good stuff.

Such a good story. So if we want to take one step today, and we want to become less anxious, What is one step we can take today?

Yeah, I think it is working on that regulation, self-regulation. Because if you can just pause in the moment and get to the thinking part of your brain, you have a better chance of doing it differently. And the other thing is just to kind of think back and through and say, where are the times where I didn't really respond the way I wanted to? And where are the times when I did, where I responded in the way I wanted to? And what's the difference? And, and, you know, just start to unpack all that and, and think through, um, you know, how, how you can do things differently.

Well, and I just want to answer that really quickly, and we will, we will close up. But, um, when I react in the moment is when I tend to not be proud. And when I breathe and take time I tend to like what comes out of my mouth.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And difference between your primitive brain and your thinking brain.

Oh my goodness. Well, and you explaining the biology behind it is really going to help me because I'm going to realize that it's normal for me to feel that, right? And then I can, I can take that moment.

Exactly. Yep.

Yes. Well, I asked you so many questions. Is there anything else that you want to share with us?

No. Well, uh, if you do want to subscribe to my email newsletter, it's called Two for Tuesday, and I just send out, um, usually I do a little short video on leadership, and then, um, uh, there's two, uh, recommendations for articles that you might find helpful. And it kind of runs the, uh, the spectrum from family systems theory— there's a woman called Kathleen Smith out of the Bowen Center who's really good, I always, I share a lot of her stuff— to productivity stuff, to self-care stuff. Um, I think all of those things go into really being a non-anxious leader. So, uh, you can go to the website, thenonanxiousleader.com and sign up there.

So at your website, is that where everyone can find, you know, your book, your coaching, your podcast? Is everything at the website?

Everything is at the website. Yep.

Awesome. Well, I can't thank you enough for your non-anxious time.

Well, thanks for having me, and, uh, um, I wish you the best, uh, into the future.

Thank you so much. This is Rebecca Greene reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, loving, and learning. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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