Episode 396: Maternal Mental Health and Life Transitions

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am so excited today because I get to talk to the beautiful and wonderful Lauren Tettenbaum. Lauren, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to join you.

And I want to tell you about this fantastic lady. I, I was just reading more about her and I'm just so excited to talk about this topic. Lauren has her LCSW, her JD, and her PMH-C. I forgot to ask you what that is. I should ask you.

Perinatal Mental Health Certified. So that's awesome. Yeah. Postpartum Support International is an amazing nonprofit that helps women and their partners throughout the perinatal period, and they offer training and accreditation for providers. So I am extra trained and extra passionate in helping women in that period.

That's awesome. I— new letters that I've never seen before, so I was excited to ask you. Um, Lauren is also known as the Counselor, which is a very cool title. She's a clinical social worker, gender equality advocate, and writer on women's issues specializing in supporting young women and millennial moms. Lauren helps clients navigate life transitions such as motherhood, career shifts, and family dynamics. She offers clinical individual, clinical individual and couples therapy, coaches women in corporate settings, and actively contributes to discussions on maternal mental health, working parenthood, and gender equity. Lauren's thought leadership has been featured in prominent outlets including the New York Times, Psych Central, and Westchester Magazine. She is dedicated to empowering women to find balance, thrive in their personal and professional lives, and advocate for gender equality. And I mean, couldn't sound more fantastic and needed for— you know, I told you we're going to help so many women today with me getting to talk to you, and I'm excited to talk to you. And I really want to start with asking you, What inspired you to focus your work on supporting young women and new moms? Tell us what, what inspired you.

Absolutely. And thank you again for the beautiful, warm introduction. I have honestly always been passionate about supporting women. I was the president of my high school's Women's Issues Club. I minored in gender studies, and I thought that I would make a difference on behalf of women as a lawyer. So I went to law school immediately after college, and then I realized that I wanted to provide more compassionate care. I'm, um, not that lawyers can't be compassionate, but I, I'm a very, uh, warm people person type, and I decided to simultaneously pursue my master's in social work. And I did work as a lawyer and in the legal field for 10 years, But when I became a mom, as many of us experience, my priority shifted, my schedule shifted, and I thought a lot about how women, especially women in the workplace and moms, new moms in particular, needed extra support. And I thought, I want to be the person to provide that support.

That's amazing. And I can imagine that being a lawyer and a social worker is like extra helpful to these women.

I think so. I— people ask, you know, how do you feel comfortable advocating for yourself and for others? And certainly that's a quality that lawyers, I think, inherently have. And I have just always, whether it's because of my parents or my upbringing or, you know, nature versus nurture, probably a combination, I have always felt that I should use my privilege to be a voice for those who don't have a voice. And it's really my privilege to counsel women when they're at their most vulnerable and help them be their own biggest cheerleaders.

Oh my gosh, I love this so much. Well, and I know you frequently write and speak on maternal mental health, so I'm curious what you think still needs to change with this topic.

So much.

I know. I do.

Look, I'm an optimist. You can probably tell. And I do think that things have shifted for the better. My first child was born in 2016. It's now 2024, and I have seen such a shift in the narrative around maternal mental health, in asking for help, in paid leave from the workplace. Those have all certainly improved. There's a lot more that needs to be improved upon, and I think that, like a lot of issues with mental health, destigmatizing and normalizing that need for support and extra community is the place to begin.

So women in the workplace, corporate setting, your client comes to you and needs help advocating in this setting. Can you talk about how you could help someone who needs you?

Yeah, absolutely. So the first piece, of course, like any good social worker knows, is meeting them where they are, right? What is it that they need support with? Do they need someone to listen to them? Do they need tools for coping with stressors? Do they need a reminder that this is hard? It's not something wrong with them. When you're exhausted and returning to work, which every parent, trust me, is exhausted, you know, you need that extra support. So of course, you know, a needs assessment. What exactly do they need? When it comes to advocating for a shift in policy, that is something that I have a lot of experience with, not as an employment attorney, but a former employee myself, and then as someone who offers consulting on these issues, whether it's related to advocating for a change in parental leave policy to make it longer, more benefits, more equitable benefits. Um, I'm a big fan of getting rid of the terms primary versus secondary caregiver because you're only a secondary caregiver if you're made to be that way, if you don't get access to leave. Um, whether it's advocating for flexibility in your schedule, whatever it is. So I, if I'm the woman's therapist, I would work with her to assess her needs, assess what she's comfortable with, help her find additional support systems. We often overlook people who can be allies because they might not be new moms, but maybe they're older women, older men, young men, anyone should care about these issues. And so I encourage you not to, you know, ignore potential allies because we absolutely are stronger together.

Oh, I love that. And I'm, and I'm curious from your experience, so when you're helping women advocate for themselves in the workplace, are you finding that employers are receptive to that?

It definitely varies. I will say that I have had quite a few women who are my therapy clients who come to sessions with me following, you know, a few in which we've focused on this topic, and they have said to me, thank you so much for encouraging me to make the ask. It worked. And we are— women are conditioned to be people pleasers, to not quote unquote rock the boat. And sometimes our ask is so basic and so simple. Maybe it is, you know what, I, I need to be working 3 days a week, not 5, and I am happy to update my compensation accordingly, whatever it might be. And if you just ask, I think you will often be surprised at how, you know, little resistance you'll be met with. Of course, there are some bad apples in the mix. I, I am definitely aware of that, and I think that that is an opportunity for women to assess what their values are. Do they want to be in a workplace environment that doesn't support women or caregivers? I currently am working on a book about preparing millennials for menopause, and menopause benefits are, I think, the next wave of corporate benefits for women. And I have seen that— I've seen a little resistance among employers. They kind of say, oh, well, we already offer, you know, healthcare. But I frankly think that the companies that say that are on the wrong side of history, and they will catch up if they want to keep the best talent.

Well, that is very interesting. I have never— I'm sitting here thinking about the young mom who's going back to work, who I do want to talk to you about. But I want to flip back to a menopausal woman because I feel really ignorant right now. What kind of things does she need in the workplace? Sure.

So don't feel ignorant. The premise of my book is I knew nothing about menopause, and at 39 years old, it occurred to me perhaps it's time to learn. And so, you know, That's really the crux of it, right? No one talks about it. No one knows anything about it. And many, many, many women, far too many women suffer from their symptoms. And when it comes to the workplace, so many women feel that they can no longer do their jobs or they won't take a promotion or they will leave the workforce altogether because they're not getting the right kind of support. And we see those patterns with postpartum women as well, right? With women who have had babies recently or just have young kids, they're not getting the right kind of support. So they're effectively pushed out of the workforce. Oh, yeah. And it doesn't have to be this way. It shouldn't be this way. And it's time for a change. And when it comes to menopause benefits in particular, it can be anything from something tangible like control over the thermostat. If you are having hot flashes, right?

I don't mean—

so important. It can also be really basic, like informational activities, webinars, meetings. Just, this is something that happens to women if they're lucky enough to age, right? It's normal. It's not something that we should be stigmatizing or making fun of. Let's talk about it. Let's teach each other resources, ways to support our loved ones going through it, etc. And then there are many nuanced benefits that are available, like offering telehealth providers or access to telehealth providers in this space. And really, again, it starts with the conversation and education. And I think that we will see much more to come.

Well, and I think that, you know, I don't want to generalize. I'm not going to say women. I'm going to say that I see often that women don't realize that they can advocate for themselves. They don't know how to advocate for themselves. I mean, how do you even begin with that?

You're right. And it's not women's fault. And it's certainly not that women are wired to be, you know, ineffective advocates. It's because we're conditioned to be, you know, we see it all the time in the way the media covers a woman versus a man in whatever role they might be pursuing. For example, the election. And it's really overdue, past time to change. I think it's so important to teach girls, young children, about advocating for themselves, boys as well. I think it's important again to go back to that allyship idea of encouraging. If there's a woman in the room and, you know, you might be the kind of privileged old white guy, let her speak, right? So I think that women are conditioned to feel that they are bothering someone if they speak up. And I would like to say to that, if you don't ask, you won't get. And if it's not you, then who, right? And it again goes back to your values, which in turn can impact your mental health. Because if you're working in a place that does not share your values or that you're made to feel like you are wrong for asking for something, you know, very reasonable, that's probably not the place that you want to be.

So true. So true. There is nothing like an understanding boss and a flexible schedule. I feel like those two things are humongous. Absolutely. So let's talk about the new mom who's going back to work. And I say that with such emotion because I honestly turned to my husband and said, I can't do it. And I, and I, and I stayed home for a very long time. And so to the mom who is going back to a work setting, what advice do you have for her?

I will give the advice I give to all my postpartum clients, you know, the, the freshly postpartum clients as well as moms of any age dealing with stressors, which is take it one hour at a time. Yeah, it's really important. We listen. I am Type A+. I am a planner. I understand the desire to feel like we are in control over our futures. But tell any postpartum mom, oh, just plan around X, and then their baby doesn't nap, right? And so the whole plan goes out the window. So there has to be an element of flexibility, of constantly checking in with yourself. Does this make me happy? Does this actually need to get done today? Can it get done tomorrow? Will anyone be, you know, harmed by it? Probably not. We usually put so much pressure on ourselves that isn't necessary, and I think that we really just need to lean into self-compassion and taking care of ourselves and doing what needs to get done, but on our own timelines.

Yes, yes. I hear from moms that— trying to remember the expression that they say to me because I've heard it often. It's something about when you're at work, pretend you're not a mom. Like, and— right.

It's a social scientist had said that women are expected to work like they don't have children.

Yes.

Children, they don't have jobs. And yes, it is unfortunately still true. And it's not the same as men. We know about the motherhood penalty. The fatherhood bonus. We see it in the pay gap. We see it in, oh, Bobby has to leave to coach softball. He's an amazing dad, but Lauren has to leave to take the kid to the pediatrician, and she is not committed to this job. That's ridiculous.

Oh, my gosh. You nailed it. You nailed it. That was exactly what I was looking for. I've had so many women tell that to me, and so they're feeling guilty when they're at work.

Mm-hmm.

Because they're— they feel like they should be with their kids. They're feeling guilty at home because they feel like they should be working on stuff from work. So help that mom.

So again, take it 1 hour at a time.

Yeah.

Be present with whatever task is in front of you. If it actually is a work assignment, you know, that is time sensitive, I would say focus on that. And that might mean missing bedtime that night. But that doesn't mean you have to miss bedtime. Always, right? I think and know from data that quality with our children is much more important than quantity of time. And so I always recommend and implement myself— if I have a week, I look at a week when I think about balance, right? I don't know if every day can be balanced, but I do think a week can. And so if I'm out late— last night I was at an event late, I missed bedtime— and tonight I'm going to be with my children at dinner put my phone away and be very present. And that is fulfilling and works for me. And I think that so many women do feel this and again are basically pushed out of the workforce because they feel like they can't do it, they can't speak up. And I want to say to them that if we don't speak up, nothing will change. And I know it's hard to speak up, but that's why we need support and to support each other.

Well, and I think that women think if they're quiet and they just do their job, they'll be valued more. Right?

Right. Which is actually usually not true. And I think I'm— I know that I'm a very nice person. So even though I am a huge proponent of self-advocacy, I have never been cruel or demanding or inappropriate or anything like that. There's a way to ask nicely, and that's it.

That is so true. Yes. And I love what my husband said to me one day. He's like, just be present where your feet are. And I was like, oh, I never thought about it that way.

You know, so men have an easier time, not only because of all of the ways that they've grown up culturally, but it's the mental load, right? Women, you can say be present. And yes, I'm at the dinner table, but I'm also thinking about We ran out of carrots and, you know, I need to go get them. And is the baseball uniform clean? And who's doing carpool tomorrow? And that is also something that I believe is conditioned and needs to change. And I want to acknowledge that the mental load is incredibly real and incredibly heavy, but also there is room for change there too.

So let's talk about that because this is like humongous. And I think that spouses could support each other better, just, you know, based on everything you and I see. So can we talk about how a stressed-out spouse, whether it's the man or the woman, can— can— how can they support each other better is the question.

You know, I listened to your recent episode with your husband, and I was laughing because we all go through dumb fights, right?

Yes. We all do.

Even therapists who specialize in these issues, we're human, we're cranky, we are all exhausted. And this isn't a, you know, tit for tat, well, I'm more tired than you kind of thing. To avoid that, you know, pressure cooker situation and then we all just blow, blow up, right? To avoid that, I think it's important to set aside time to check in about logistics. And to not make assumptions about the other person, whether it's around what they're feeling, whether it's around what they know. Sometimes, you know, my husband might not even know that a school function is on a certain day because he didn't get an email. Right. Which is a whole other systemic gender inequity issue that we can talk about. But so come to the table with an open mind, view your partner in the most generous light, assume that they do want to be a team player. You know, unfortunately there are some people who don't want to, but that's again an assessment of, well, do you want to be with this person? But assuming they do, they want to be on your team, they don't want to be your, you know, intern where you're delegating constantly, and you don't want that either, trust me. And talk about what needs to be done, what you prefer to be done, how you feel about a certain task, and continue to check in with each other. Just because we might have, you know, the semester schedule of carpool down in September doesn't mean we can leave it alone, because we all know that kids get sick and carpools get canceled and all that. So continue to check in with both your partner and yourself. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Fair Play method by Eve Rodsky. I am a Fair Play facilitator, so Eve is also a former lawyer and gender activist, and she realized that she was carrying the mental load. She was what she called the she-fault parent, even though her husband identified as a feminist, as a very present, hands-on dad. And yet it was still this inequitable division of labor. And essentially she created a book and an accompanying card game. And she and her organization, the Fair Play Policy Institute, train mental health providers and coaches, and I'm one of the trainers in this method. And I bring it up to say that it's an incredible tool. I strongly recommend that everyone check it out. There's the book, the documentary, etc. But also, this group of facilitators that I'm a part of approaches it in unique ways. We have specialists who focus on parents with ADHD. We have facilitators who work with men alone. We have facilitators facilitators who specialize in the postpartum period, or, you know, the empty nester, or adults who don't have children at all. And so find what works for you.

I definitely have heard of that as you're describing it. Most definitely. I think we should all check that out. I love that. Um, so what do you think is unique as far as challenges go with, like, millennial moms?

I love this question. Um, I think that millennial moms have the unique opportunity to learn from social media, which is very helpful because it normalizes really raw, rough situations, whether it's a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder, infertility struggles, etc. And also to access resources through that. On the other hand, I think that social media can be overused. It can be over-idealized. And I think that more often than not, what I see among my, you know, generally anxious clients is this game of comparison, which really—

Yes.

Is not helpful.

Yes.

So I think use social media thoughtfully, right? Intentionally.

Yes. Yes. Oh gosh, you nailed it. All the comparison and feeling like you need to measure up. Absolutely. It's interesting because I think that I also find that we use social media, and I'm using air quotes for those of you who aren't watching this, to see people. And then I realized that we need to see people in person.

Right.

And, and that it's completely different when you're actually face to face with someone.

Yes. And it is going back to the point about being present where your feet are. It is such a time suck. It is a literal virtual reality. And yeah, there again, there are good things about it.

Yes.

But limit your use.

Yes.

Be very mindful about how it's making you feel. If you find that you're just getting a pit in your stomach after scrolling, you don't need to scroll. You don't need to keep up that way. So again, check in with yourself and your values.

Yes. Yes. Totally agree with all of that. Can we talk about the mom experiencing postpartum depression?

Yeah.

How can we help her today?

Absolutely. So I will again share the Postpartum Support International organization as a resource. I have volunteered with them in various capacities and they're just incredible. They offer a warm line in which you can text or call for support. That is, they— someone will call you back within a certain amount of time. There's also the maternal mental health hotline for those who need the crisis support. There's free virtual groups for postpartum mental health struggles, dads, loss, a whole range. And so check it out, check it out, postpartum.com.

Yes, yes.

And in general, it's really about supporting her by saying, I'm here for you, whatever you need. Do you want me to wash your dishes? Do you want to take a nap while I watch the baby? Do you want to call me and just vent to me? Do you want me to tell you funny stories? You know, Check in. How's it going? What can I do to help? I have some ideas, right? Up to 1 in 5 women experience a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder, which is technically from pregnancy through the first year of the baby's life. But I mean, does postpartum ever really end? I don't think so. And so, you know, I think that stat is astounding and does help normalize the more kind of severe issues. But also, I want to say to any mom, every mom, It's okay to need and ask for and get support.

Yes. Yes. And we don't talk about it enough. You know, I mean, if I could go back, you know, we all learn things. If I could go back, I would have been talking to moms about how I was feeling. And I didn't. I, I was too wrapped up with keeping this new baby alive. Right. So I didn't— wasn't really talking to enough people.

Yeah.

So it's so hard.

We all know how hard it is to even brush your hair, you know, in those early days.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's super, super hard. And so, I mean, I always tell my postpartum mamas, like, I don't care if your hair is brushed or you're dressed, you know, you're free to come to session in your pajamas. It's all good.

You're wonderful. That is— I love that you say that to them. So as far as the challenges that you're seeing on a daily basis, can you talk about a challenge that a mom had and you saw her have some success with it?

Yeah, um, one of my clients comes to mind. She had lost her mom, uh, early on, and so she had recently become a new mom herself and was really navigating the grieving process of being a motherless mother and asking for support around childcare, or, you know, when do we start solids. And not that every, you know, mom's mom is available to help, and there are plenty that are still alive and, and not helpful in that way. But this particular woman really wanted that from her mom, which of course was an impossible task. And we worked together to help her process her grief. We implemented some cognitive reframing tools, which I'm a big fan of. We worked on her ability to express herself outwardly, whether that was through journaling or talking to her husband, talking to her father. And we leaned into one of my favorite tools, which is self-compassion. So it's okay that this is hard. This is hard. It doesn't have to be easy. You're not doing anything wrong. We can feel our feelings that I know are not always pleasant, and we can work through them. And it's that sort of growing comfortable with the discomfort and knowing you can move through it and, and come out stronger.

Such great advice. And what I'm hearing with what you're saying is that we as women— and I am generalizing this— tend to have huge, enormous expectations for ourselves.

Yes.

So, I mean, how can we turn that down a notch?

So again, drawing on the self-compassion methodology, which I absolutely love, selfcompassion.org by Kristin Neff is my favorite website. It's saved. It's a favorite in all of my devices. Talk to yourself the way you would a friend. We so often are harshest on ourselves. And yet if our friend, let's say our postpartum friend, you know, went back to work, we would literally be cheering her on. Congratulations. It's okay to cry. You know, you're a rock star. It doesn't matter if your outfit doesn't fit anymore, whatever. For ourselves, we think, oh, what am I doing wrong? Right? And get that negative self-talk out of here. You don't deserve it. Be kind to yourself.

Yes. Hear that, people.

Mm-hmm. I write it down. I really am a fan of affirmations. I say put the Post-it on your mirror, whatever it takes. Tell a friend to remind you.

And I want to say, and I know you'll agree with me, that at first it feels so uncomfortable. And now I find that I'm doing it. You know, we're practicing and we're doing it more and more often as we practice it.

Yeah, it's called a practice for a reason, right?

Yes.

Yes.

Well, I asked you so many questions. Is there anything that you think I didn't touch on that is super important?

I think that it's important to know yourself, to know when you're feeling not like yourself, and to know that support is available for that. I think anyone who is expecting a baby, for example, should automatically get a therapist, a coach, some extra support because it is such a major life transition. That even if you're not experiencing a mood disorder clinically, you deserve support. So that again can be through postpartum, parenting, perimenopause, etc. Life is full of ups and downs and we deserve to have the support that we need throughout.

Yes, yes. And I'm flashing back to— oh my gosh, it's almost 18 years ago. Walking to my office upstairs, almost 9 months pregnant, holding my back. I mean, we are rock stars, people.

Don't forget it. It's easy to forget it, but you—

I mean, women are amazing. Amazing. So tell everyone where to find you. Sure.

So The Counselor, Counselor, but L-A-U-R for Lauren. Because as a lawyer, social worker, therapist, I really enjoy counseling women at their most vulnerable. And I'm all about building community. So if anyone wants to follow me on Instagram @thecounselor or email me lauren@thecounselor.com, check out my website and of course preorder my book, which is called Millennial Menopause. It will be available in 2025. And that is really has been such a labor of love because I learned so much and I really believe it represents the community support model that we've been discussing in the next period of life.

That book sounds amazing. I'm really excited because I really want to learn about this topic. So thank you for writing it.

Thank you. And thank you for having me.

Oh my gosh. Thank you for joining us and sharing your expertise and your time. I just loved talking to you.

You too, Rebecca Greene.

This is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback.

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