Episode 420: Gottman's Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work

Where would you like me to sit, honey? I'll sit wherever you want me to sit. How about this? Is that good? Yeah, right on top of you.

Hello everybody, happy Winey Palooza Wednesday! Behave.

Yes, dear. Arf.

Oh my gosh, how is everybody doing? My brave, wonderful husband just drove our daughter to and from dance in lots of ice and snow. Yes, we are in Buffalo, New York, and we are in the heart of the winter, and we are hoping— I'm hoping that winter is almost over.

Okay, that's optimistic.

My friend said one more month. Let's see, where was your friend, a weather person? I feel like it has snowed in April, but I'm getting off topic.

You are.

Okay, so I did want to tell everybody the inspiration behind this topic this week. So first of all, it's Valentine's Day week and I'm wearing my—

oh, look at your heart earrings!

Yep, I've been wearing them every day. They're from Jamie.

Oh, I was going to say, I don't remember buying you those and I apologize for not noticing.

I've been wearing them every day this week because it's Valentine's Week.

Yes, I did not notice.

So it was the perfect present. Thank you, Jamie.

Yep.

And I love them so much, and I will continue wearing them every day this week.

Yep.

And I love Valentine's Day, and I wanna give you a spin on it. And this is just not about romantic love. You don't have to have a romantic love. I feel like Valentine's Day is the perfect excuse to tell people that you love them and to show them that you love them. So I love Valentine's Day, and Valentine's Day is even more special to me because 21 years ago Seth asked me out on our first date, and he asked me to go on Valentine's Day, which I love that you did that. That was bold.

Thank you.

And I had friends in town who had invited me out that night, so I didn't want to cancel on them and be like, sorry, I have a hot date, I can't go.

You should have. Then we could have had a Valentine's Day story.

I'm sorry. Are you upset about that?

No, it was 21 years ago. I'm good. It worked out.

I guess I probably should have canceled on them. So anyways, I went out with them and I had a nice dinner and I told them about—

if we'd gone out on Valentine's Day, it probably would have just been that, like, we wouldn't have had a 12-hour date because we would have just done dinner.

Yeah, it was meant to be. It worked out, right? So he picked me up at noon on February 15th and we never looked back.

That's right.

We've been together ever since. Yes, and I went to work the next day on Monday, and I told them that I found my husband, and I was right. I was right.

You were.

So that is the inspiration behind talking about marriage this week, between it being our anniversary and it being Valentine's Day. So what better topic for this week? So I wanted to look up John Gottman's research on marriage.

Dr. John Gottman.

Dr. John Gottman is the marital guru. He does marital research, and he's like— when you talk about marriage in my industry, like social workers, therapists, psychologists, he's the guru. We all talk about John Gottman. John Gottman is the man. And if you want to learn about marriage, look him up. He talks about the Four Horsemen of Marriage, Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Yes. and we, um, I'm sorry, I'm getting lots of text messages from the PTA. Um, what, where was I? Okay, so I have talked about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Apocalypse of Marriage, so I didn't want to do that again, but go look it up, it's super important. Um, so I wanted to talk about the Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work that John Gottman has done research on.

Yes, and has a new New York Times bestselling book out of the same name.

So if we do these 7 things, it helps to make our marriage work. Yes. So I wanted to talk about them with you, and I wanted to talk about how Seth and I are doing with each of them.

Yes.

So I'm going to tell you something funny before I jump into this. I researched John Gottman this week. I learned more about him and his research. I read a lot, I studied a lot, and I wrote a lot. And last night, Seth and I went to Rochester for a marital training for his business group.

Yep.

And you could bring your spouse to this training. So we're driving there, it's like over an hour away. So I'm finishing my blog in the car, writing away as Seth is driving. And we go in and we sit down, and they— on the screen is—

yeah, I don't know what's going on with that light.

Somebody's here visiting us is what I think. So on the screen At the training, it says 7 Principles of Making Marriage Work, and I looked at Seth and I was like, oh my God, I just did this all day.

And we went to a doctor— a workshop led by a Dr. John Gottman certified practitioner on the 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work.

So I was like, okay, and, and I, and I did my advice that I give to other people. So when I was a supervisor, I used to have therapists complain to me that I was making them go to yet another cognitive behavioral training, and they were like, we've done enough of these trainings, we don't want to go to any and I was like, I promise you, keep an open mind, you will learn something. So I was like, okay, you're gonna sit back, you're gonna relax, you're gonna keep an open mind, and you're gonna learn something. So it didn't matter that I had done that all day. I continued to learn last night, and I knew my husband would enjoy it very much.

Thank you for going out on a school night.

So, okay, let's start with principle number 1 of sharing love maps, and I learned something about it last night.

Me too.

Okay, first, so I studied it. So I was learning about like learning what makes your partner tick, learning what lights them up, learning what makes them happy. Like, we need to know that and we need to help with that. And I feel like I know Seth's love map. What I learned last night is that it is always changing and then I have to keep up with Seth and how it's changing.

I, I felt the same way about you. I didn't like— at first I was resisting, like, I don't want the love map to change. I learned it when we were dating. I would like you to always stay the same. And then over the years, you're like, people change, people grow, people evolve. I don't like that jewelry, that piece of jewelry anymore. My tastes change. Keep up. So because I've matured, or whatever. So yes, it was good to hear from the professionals that your love map, it naturally changes and you got to keep checking in and finding out.

So I am going to use that example to teach you, to teach all of us. Yes, I love jewelry. I will always probably ask for jewelry for everything. And when we met, my taste was younger, and now that I'm older, I don't want the stuff that like my kids would wear. Like, I want the stuff that a 48-year-old woman would wear. So Seth really doesn't know how to catch up to that, so I'm teaching him better.

Yeah, since you told me—

oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah—

told me that I wasn't supposed to buy the dainty cute whatever thing from Zales or whatever.

No dainty cute stuff.

That you wanted the big honking diamond. No, once I learned that, I switched buying you stuff. I figured I bought you stuff that you now like.

It's not about it being big, it's about it being like a more mature piece of jewelry. So anyways, whatever that— let's not get stuck on jewelry.

Yes, please.

So learn what makes your partner happy, learn what makes them tick, learn what lights them up, and help make that happen. So like, let's think of an example for you. Like, I'm probably going to use this a couple of times because I'm being super supportive about it. On purpose.

Okay.

You love Krav Maga.

Yes.

So I know that you're growing and evolving and going to a new boot camp, and I know that you're going to get your third-degree black belt and that you're training for it and that your schedule has changed and your training has changed, and I'm keeping up.

Yes, I greatly appreciate you letting me add in. I now go to every class like half an hour early to practice extra, and I have classes on Friday nights and I greatly appreciate you accommodating the extra time in my schedule.

Well, so I think that's an excellent point, because if there's something that you and I want or love, we support the time commitment.

Yes, like mine is temporarily a larger commitment than it normally is.

Well, and that's okay. I don't expect all of your time.

I appreciate that.

Okay, so number 2, nurturing fondness and admiration. So I think that I have a secret decoder ring for marriage. I think I have—

phenomenal.

I think I have cracked the code.

That'd be amazing.

And I think that the code is to really like your partner. We love them, we fell in love with them, we need to stay in love with them. But I like who Seth is. I am impressed by him. I admire him. He doesn't stop impressing me. I was laughing with Seth last night that one of my favorite things about us is that Seth will say, 'I don't know how you do it,' and I'll turn to him and I'll be like, 'I don't know how you do it,' and we're like literally fighting with each other about— I, I don't know which one of us did more today.

And it's not a competition.

It's— we're not trying to compete, we're just appreciating each other, appreciating all of the effort, and we complement each other because I'm doing this, a lot of the stuff that you don't want to do, and you're doing a lot of the stuff that I don't want to do, or that isn't in our zone of genius, area of expertise, etc. Yeah. So, um, oh, so they said their advice for this was to rewrite the script, the scenario.

So that's when something goes awry.

So to stay fond of your partner.

Yes. So empowering way to look.

So do you remember the examples that they used last night, or the donuts? Well, the donuts— I don't think the donuts was this example. Okay, but that was good rewriting.

One was, um, him getting up early and having clothes in the bathroom so he could sneak out and take a shower and get downstairs without waking her up.

Yeah, like, like her appreciating— like, she went downstairs and she was annoyed that he left the coffee maker out.

It was the Keurig. It was the Keurig cup. It was a Keurig cup was left out.

Whatever.

Yes.

Instead of being annoyed that he left stuff out and made a, made a mess in quotes, small mess, she rewrote the script and was like, he put his clothes in this bathroom or whatever he did so that he could get dressed and be quiet and go downstairs before I got up. Yes. So she rewrote the script in an appreciative way. Yes. Yes.

And changed her emotional state.

Yes. Okay, so this is big, and I need to talk to my friends about this one. Turning towards each other versus away from each other. And I think this was my biggest lesson last night. Okay, I didn't know this, because all we were talking about on the car ride home was all those times of us mentioning stuff during the day is us attempting to connect with each other. And if we respond then we're putting, uh, deposits in to our emotional bank account. If we turn away, then we're, we're not connected.

Yes. I did not— this— I did not realize this. I didn't— I thought— I, up until yesterday, I would have thought if you had asked me a lot of the time, oh, she's just talking out loud, she's processing out loud, she's thinking out loud, I don't need to respond, there was no question directly aimed at me, she's just talking, and I would not respond or not think I needed to do anything. Apparently that was not correct.

So I'm—

did you see today when you were processing out? I thought you're processing out loud. I still commented anyway.

What was, what was I saying?

I don't remember, but I know that I've responded to everything you've just stated randomly out loud.

So like the example that she used that I loved because my friends will do this to me about the weather, is she just says that, you know, your husband says it's gonna rain tomorrow, and you could say something snarky like, I do have a weather app. Or you could say, thanks honey, that's good to know. Like, you could say something nice. So like, when my friends tell me about the weather, like, no, like, I, I don't follow the weather. It's one of my downfalls. I need to—

not a downfall. I need to follow the weather either.

I need to be more aware, like my friend or my mom will text me and be like, there's a snowstorm coming, like, go get gas, or like, it's going to be really cold tomorrow. Like, I like the heads up, and that's them connecting with me. So they're taking—

now you're going to respond.

I always respond, but they, they're taking care of me and they're responding. And I'm just telling you that as your partner is talking to you through the day, like, hi, how are you? How is your day going? Tell me about your meeting that you just had.

When your partner's trying to make conversation or touch you, I think those are more obvious because that— I heard questions in there like, how was your day? I wouldn't normally ignore that. But going, I have so much to do, or why won't this damn computer won't work, is it normally a— oh, Seth, I'm like, you say something in the other room 3 times and then you're like, will you come help me? I'm like, oh, you're talking to me, yes, I will come.

Okay, but that is a guy move. Because if I say my computer won't work, that is speak for Seth, come fix my computer.

Well, why don't you just tell me you need help?

Okay, so I'll be more direct, right? But like, to me that's obvious.

It is not.

It is. My computer won't work. Seth, get your buns over here.

Banging on the thing and you're just going, this stupid—

it works.

But there are times I come over and you're like, I wasn't talking to you. And I'm like, okay, how am I supposed to know when? Ask an actual question.

Okay, so I will be more direct in my communication.

That would help me.

You've been teaching me that since you met me. He does not want indirect. Men do not want us to be indirect or passive in our communication. No subtlety.

If only this computer would work. Well, no, that's a bummer. I wish it would work too. No, you were supposed to take— oh my God, help me.

Well, the couple that I just interviewed, who will be live on Friday by the way, I will talk about them. They were like, don't be subtle about sex either. Like, all right, right now we're talking, right? Like, like, actually say something. Like, don't do something subtle. Like, women can be very subtle in general.

So I think there have been times I missed your signals for sure, and I found out the next morning that you were like, I wanted you, and I'm like, oh, I had no freaking clue.

Well, so be direct, people. Be direct.

I was looking at you and I'm like, oh, that's what that look meant. I'm so sorry.

Be direct. That is the— and turn towards, connect, respond, answer.

Yes, I'm sorry the computer didn't work. I'm happy to help you.

Oh my God. Letting your partner influence you. This is a good one.

Yes, yield to win, right?

Yes, yield to the middle, yield to win together. So you're here, I'm here, come to the middle and come to a compromise and influence each other. I think we're really good at that. We're not like, screw you, I'm gonna do what I want.

Correct, we aren't. That would not go well.

Um, she said, say tell me more so that you can understand where your partner is coming from. And, um, I feel like I really care about what you think and ask you questions and take into account. I don't always agree with you, right?

I don't expect you to.

Um, I think that it's good to know and we're going to get into this more with problems, but it's good to know who feels more strongly about what topic and how does each other feel and is there a compromise we can come to. Yeah, but we definitely care what each other thinks. I think when you don't care about what each other thinks, that is a huge problem.

Yes.

Solving your solvable problems. I love that she said come in soft. I will always remember that line.

That would be very helpful.

Hey now, so your arguments— she said last night, your arguments tend to end how they begin. So begin it softly.

Yes, if you come in hot, it's going to end hot.

If you come in soft, it's going to end soft, which sounds lovely, which we can hope for.

Can you give me an example of what? Coming in softer. Um, you're mad at me because I didn't come help you with the computer. This is a hypothetical.

Honey, do you mind coming over here and helping me? I could really use your help.

Okay, so that's just you being direct and asking the question. I'm looking for a come in soft. So how would you softly be like, I'm mad at you that you didn't come help me?

Um, I would love if when I'm having a problem that you would respond and come help me instead of not coming over to help me.

Okay, so notice you used I statements.

Well, I'm doing that on purpose.

I know, you're doing it right. So I was pointing to people—

I wanted to say something else, right?

But she used an I statement. She used language that it was about her feelings, so I didn't feel defensive or attacked. Yes.

So I feel X about X, and I need X.

Yes. I feel X about Y and I need Z.

Yes.

Yes.

Um, so I think that what I find is that when we practice solving problems, it helps us with bigger problems. Yeah. And there's problems in marriage that are going to be easily solvable, and there's problems in marriage that you've been having for 21 years that you're still working on.

We have 21-year-old problems.

Yes, we do. Oh my God, yes.

Okay, we're gonna have to talk about that.

There's problems in our marriage, in our life that Seth and I have had.

Oh, okay, stuff that we have not fixed yet. Got it. But not like a problem in our marriage. That sounded very serious to me.

There's not a pro— no. Okay, I said it wrong.

You didn't say it wrong. I perhaps I interpreted it differently than you meant it.

I think that people have problems— gridlock, overcoming gridlock. I think people have problems that they have a lot of trouble solving, and what I read is that what's more important than solving the problem is appreciating the effort that each other is making trying to solve the problem.

Yes, I am willing to make whatever effort you will let me on one of those— on one or two of those problems, and it just depends how you're feeling that day, how much effort you are allowing me to put in.

So it says to go after the underlying dream. So she used the car as an example. So like a woman was upset— no, a man was upset that a woman went out. It's not a good example. I feel like it tends to be the man who goes out and gets the sports car, right?

In her example, it was the man came home and the woman had bought herself this super duper fancy Porsche that she had wanted since she was a kid without talking to him.

Yeah.

Surprise, I got a Porsche.

Right, so she had wanted the Porsche since she was little and she went out and bought it because it was an underlying dream that she hadn't talked about that she really wanted. Right. So he didn't have an understanding of why she bought the Porsche.

No, just all of a sudden say, hey, there's a very expensive car in my driveway.

But I'm sorry, you shouldn't go buy a Porsche without talking to your husband first.

I would agree.

I don't think you should buy cars without talking to anything remotely expensive. So I was just telling someone that I feel like if— I don't know what our rule is, but I feel like something is more than $100, I want to talk to Seth about it. I don't know that Seth feels the same way, but like, I wanted to spend $160 on something and I felt like I should probably talk to him about it before I did it.

I mean, I said yes. I didn't think my— I, I thought the rule I know the rule that you gave me that we agreed on for me relating to work was I couldn't spend more— was I wasn't going to spend more than like $500 on something without talking to you. That was the last time we had that conversation, a long, long time ago. So your rules may have changed since then.

I mean, it's our rules and it's what works for the two of us.

Yes.

I personally feel—

and finish that money book, those rules might change.

I just feel like if something is more than $100, we probably talk about it. Okay, but I don't— I, I mean, I probably— maybe we came to $500 years ago.

Probably. I don't think it'd go up with inflation, but now you're going backwards. But we'll work on that. I mean, I don't know that there's that much at work. I only spend $100 on—

so according to this money book that I just read, like, I can't even tell you how clueless I am about what bills Seth pays at work, and that makes me so sad that I am so out of the picture, and I did, and I did it to myself.

Thank you.

I'm not blaming Seth, I'm blaming myself. So the— how— so what is the book called?

Money for Couples.

Money for Couples. So I just finished the book Money for Couples. Seth is still reading it, so it is inspiring me to know more about our finances. Like, that's the goal, is both people are supposed to be involved in the finances.

Yes.

So I need to learn more about the house, but I also need to learn more about work.

Yes, we're starting with the house because it's way simpler, and you don't want— originally shut down about when that got more complicated. So let's do baby steps and do the house first, and then when you're ready, we could baby step the businesses.

Sounds like a plan. Yes. Okay, so the last one The last principle is creating shared meaning together, and she said rituals, roles, goals, symbols.

Yep, I like this one a lot.

Okay, so why do you like this one?

I think you used a different word for it when we first started dating and you first started sharing with me some of your expertise, and I think you called it recreational companionship. Oh, doing something together that we both enjoy and then we bond over it. Like, I love now that you've gotten me, uh, reading a bunch of the same books. Like, we read Throne of Glass, we read the Fourth Wing series. I'm working on Onyx Storm now. We're reading the money book. Like, I love that we're sharing that together and then talking about it and learning and growing from the money book and commenting over the novels and stuff.

I think that Seth and I have found that we both love reading. Yes. And it's a really good place for us to come together.

Right, 'cause you're not gonna come spar with me.

Oh God, no. I'm not coming to Krav.

And I'm not gonna come hang out with the Golden Girls and have a meal for 4 hours and listen as well as you will. I exaggerate.

But like, I'm trying to think of other stuff. I don't even think I wrote about this correctly now that I think about it. I don't even think I wrote this. I was talking about supporting each other's goals, but it's more—

you could be right. I could—

no, I'm wrong. You're right. It's supposed to be goals together, right?

Which we wrote a list of. They had us do 3, 5-year, 10-year, lifetime couple goals, and I was thrilled but not surprised to see that a lot of ours worked the same. Like, we wrote them down separately and then we talked about them, and we had a lot of the same things on our list. Okay, so do you remember a couple Um, we had some travel stuff, we had some kids stuff, we had some charity stuff.

Yeah, so just finding meaning together.

Yeah.

Yes, yes. And those are his 7 principles of making a marriage work.

And we did highlights from a few of them at the workshop, and I'm super excited to go through the rest of the workbook. We did like 4 exercises. I'm super excited to do the rest of them with you and see what else we learned.

So I just want to make sure there's a couple notes. I wrote some notes at the end of my blog. So I wrote the blog before the training. So then on the way home after the training, I was like, okay, I want to go back and see like what else do I need to add. So there is a PS at the end of my blog that you can read at wineinclusa.com, and it has things like, um, the 5:1 ratio. Yeah, so like you need to have 5 positives to 1 negative in terms of your interactions. Yes. Um, you like to say— you like to bring up sandwiching. You really like sandwiching.

Praise, correct, praise.

Yes.

Um, start feeling good, leave them feeling good.

I think that the best thing that we took away from last night that's going to help our relationship is she described it as emotionally, emotionally flooded.

Yes.

Which I love when I get language for how I'm feeling because sometimes I don't know how to communicate how I'm feeling. Yes. And I think sometimes I get so flooded with my emotions that I can't communicate. And she said that Gottman says that you need a 20-minute break at that point.

That is apparently the optimal length of an adult timeout.

So that's good to know.

To reset your nervous system.

I think that was really good for Seth.

Yes. Because I normally, when she wants a timeout, when she can't communicate, I sillily have been 21 years— I made up a word— have been pushing you going, no, no, no, you can't shut down, you have to keep talking, we have to figure it out. But you're not in a state to figure it out. So I need to know that it's okay for you to get a 20-minute break and that you'll come back and we'll finish the conversation when we're calmer. And I now need to give you that space, and I am excited to be able to now feel safe doing that for you, because to me, whenever you shut down It meant it got really— now it's worse than when she was yelling, and I really, really can't let her go away and think by herself. This is bad when women do that. Apparently you need to do that, and I need to let you do that so that you can come back and we can have a more rational conversation, right? In the movie, when the woman needs space, it's never a good thing, right? She doesn't come back and go, oh my God, I love you so much, right? Apparently in real life that's gonna happen.

Well, because what I've learned in my 500, 400 interviews. I don't know how many interviews I've done. I'm making that up. Um, I've talked to a lot of experts, and you know, I had training about the brain, but the reinforcement is always so good because how often do I talk about the parts of my brain? And when I'm feeling emotionally flooded, my rational brain doesn't work, so Seth needs to know that I'm in a place where I'm not even thinking clearly, right? And I'm in my reactive, um, fight or flight mode. And I want— and I tend to want to flight.

Yes.

Now, I don't leave the house, I don't run away, I just emotionally shut down. I just walk away.

You need to go away right now.

So like, I, I'm My sign is Cancer, and I described to Seth that I'm being—

yes, you're going into your shell.

I'm going into my crab shell, and I will come out. Give me my 20 minutes, hopefully less.

I would like 20 minutes or less instead of like a day or two.

It doesn't take a day or two. You're exaggerating.

You don't— there are times that you don't talk to me till like the next night.

That is so not true. He is—

that is so true. You don't talk about anything other than who's getting the kids where You don't talk about the thing that you're upset about because you're still figuring out your feelings.

Okay, he's exaggerating because of his feelings.

I'm exaggerating because of my feelings?

Yes, you're exaggerating because it hurts you so deeply.

Oh, okay, well that's good to know. It's a good thing I have you here to translate myself.

Oh my gosh. So Friday, we have good language. It's called emotionally flooded. Yes, you need to take a 20-minute adult timeout. You you need to come back together and find the common ground, the common goal, the compromise.

Yes.

And yeah, that's all of my notes, so we covered it.

Awesome.

So those are the 7 principles of making a marriage work. And, um, I thought it was the perfect topic for this week. Yes. And I really wanted an expert couple for my podcast this week because my podcast this week is on Valentine's Day. So I wanted to talk about marriage with them. So you're gonna hear from Tony and Elisa DiLorenzo, and they are One Extraordinary Couple, is what they call themselves.

And the name of the business—

yes, it's the name of their business. And I loved talking to them, and you're gonna love them. So that is this Friday. I did a February Valentine's Day challenge in the Winey Clues and Mom group. Come find us on Facebook. It's a supportive community. And I'm going to tell you all that Katie LaDota is our winner this month.

Hey, Katie!

So I will go post that for her. And, um, we had a ton of comments. And so the comments are an entry. I was looking for the word. Thank you for finishing my sentence. So every time someone comments on a question for the 5 days each month, they get an entry, and Katie won. So I will get Katie her Valentine's Day prize, and we will do another one in March starting on March 1st. But there's lots of support and advice, and people talk about challenges and how they're feeling, and I feel like it's a wonderful supportive community. So come find us.

And go to whinybalooza.com, check out the blog, find Rebecca's Linktree which has all of her amazing resources, and make sure to sign up for the newsletter which is 3 times a week to your email inbox filled with awesome marriage and parenting tips. And with all of her content, please remember to like, share, rate, review, and subscribe.

So I was listening to an— in a podcaster, I believe, and she was telling people that she really needs them to rate her podcast and leave reviews.

5 stars, please.

Because then what happens is the algorithm— algorithm— yep, sends it out to more people.

Yes.

So that's how you get seen by more people, more traction. Yes. So we appreciate it, and we appreciate your comments and suggestions and ratings. And share this with a friend who you think would love to learn more about marriage, relationships, that kind of stuff.

Amen.

Anything else?

Happy Winey Palooza Wednesday.

Have a wonderful Valentine's Day, everyone.

Yes, I'm looking forward to it, and we will see you next week.

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