Episode 443: The Gift of a Punishment Free Childhood

Hello everyone. This is Rebecca Green for the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am very excited today because I get to talk to the fabulous Rebecca Wolf. Rebecca, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm very excited as well.

I've been so excited to talk to Rebecca. I love her topic and I'm gonna tell you about her and then you'll realize why I'm so excited. She is a parenting expert and author of The Gift of a Punishment-Free Childhood: A New Way to Parent for a New World. With over 30 years of experience raising 4 daughters without using punishment as discipline, she has developed practical, effective alternatives to traditional disciplinarian methods. Feel like that was a tongue twister. Through her book, workshops, and speaking engagements, Rebecca combines research, personal experience, and a nonjudgmental approach to help parents and caregivers create positive relationships with children at every developmental stage. Based in Denver, Colorado, she is passionate about revolution— oh my gosh, another tongue twister— revolutionizing parenting approaches to build healthier relationships and ultimately create a better world for future generations. So now everyone, do you see why I'm so excited to talk to Rebecca? This is Amazing. I told her I have a feeling I'm gonna agree with everything she says, so let's see if I'm right. But I want to start with asking you, where did this come from? What initially inspired you to adopt a punishment-free approach to parenting?

That is a great question, and it is somewhat complex. So Part of it was recognizing that traditional punishment approaches to disciplining children just never felt right and never, from my perspective, really worked great. And so I did a ton of research on parenting. A couple great references that are in my book are Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. I don't know if you have read that, or Redirecting Children's Behavior by Catherine Cole. And so I started to see this come up in some of my readings and then some of my research. But then I will share that what really convinced me was actually the Columbine school shooting. I live very close to that, actually just a few miles away from Columbine High School. And so it was impactful for me. I had young children at the time, and what I realized was that of the many factors that go into that type of experience, those two boys and young men walked into that high school with the intent to punish their classmates for ridiculing them, for making them feel bad about themselves, bullying. And part of that is because that is what we read. That's— children learn what they live. And so what we are teaching our children really when we punish them is that punishment is an answer. It's a way to control behavior. Punishment is a way to maybe get what you want or your way and that it's justified. And I just one day said, what would happen if we didn't punish our children? If that wasn't something that they lived as children.

I cannot believe how my stomach feels from that answer. I did not expect you to say that. That is not where I thought this came from. And holy cow, that's some big stuff. You make a really important point. I think that for people listening, I don't think that they know. Okay, so we know what punishment is. Can you take us to like, what do you do instead of the punishment?

And I think that is such an important question, right? Because there are people who hear this and think that the house just becomes a free-for-all and children just do whatever they want to do. In fact, I joke, when I shared this with my family, my, my, my parents and siblings, they were— they looked at me like I was out of my mind when I said this is what I'm gonna do. And it's like, people picture like I would joke and say children running through the forest or running down the street, that they're just completely undisciplined. And that is not it at all. No, this approach actually takes as much, if not more, kind of energy and creativity and engagement with your children. And the shift is really to think of your role as a parent and disciplining as a teaching and learning process. Not as a control and punishment process, right? So it's two different ways to discipline. And so disciplining is really teaching our children right from wrong, what to do, what not to do, and so doing it through a teaching lens versus a punishment lens.

I love how you explained that. I'm wondering, can you take us through an example with one of your children? Because I think that would be super helpful.

Sure, absolutely. So let me think back. A lot of my examples are from other stories, but let's take an example of, I would say, like children, siblings fighting, right? I think that's an excellent example. And I remember a situation where I had two, two of my kids in the backseat of the car and they were probably 6 and 9 years old, right? And they got in, got into a fight, right, in the backseat, right? And we actually hadn't even made it out of the driveway yet. And so I stopped and I said, hey, I said, it sounds like something is really wrong here. That, tell me what's happening. And right there you can see a difference because in the before time, or in what we think of as our first— and in fact, there's a joke, right? I'm gonna pull this car over right now if you don't stop fighting, right? We typically respond to children fighting and we bring our own anger or frustration, right? We'll walk into a room and say, what the heck's happening here? And I need you all to stop fighting right this minute, right?

We bring—

we just escalate the situation when we come in that way versus bringing more of a calm energy. So in this instance, I— and you do have to stop and remind yourself because even with all of my practice at doing this, my body wants to have that reaction, right? You don't want your kids to fight and it brings that up. So you say, okay, I'm not going to do that. You have to be very conscious. And so then I said, okay, you stay calm, right? And then I asked them, I said, and especially for one of them, it actually was unusual for them to fight like that, especially right as soon as they got in the car. And so I said, I said, Sarah, this isn't like you. I said, is something wrong? And then she just burst into tears. She told me about this fight she had with her best friend. And of course she's taking that out on her little sister. So we had a good conversation about it, that they could recognize that this is what can happen. And that it wasn't— and then ensure that both, both children feel like they've had a voice, right, in that kind of situation. So it's really problem solving versus blaming.

Problem solving versus blaming. And I love that you talked about our state because the state that we come into it affects the whole thing. Like, I know that I can make it get worse and I can make it get better.

That's exactly right.

Yes. I also, I'm not going to tell you that I'm perfect at this because I'm not perfect at any of this, but I'm going to tell you that 9 times out of 10, probably 9.5 times, it's never about us. Like, we personalize whatever's going on and they're upset about something that happened at school. That usually is what comes out of the conversation. 100%. Yeah. 100%. Yes. Okay. I think that the thing that's been coming up the most, because my kids are teenagers, so I talk to all the moms with all the teenagers and they're really upset with how their kids talk to them to the point where, like my daughter gave an example of her friend was rude to her mother, so her mother took her phone away. Okay. So. Help us with the rudeness to us.

Sure. So I will share, right, that I think that what the teenage— so a little bit more background, right? So I had 2 children and then several years later had 2 more. And so the first 2 had some traditional parenting.

Gotcha.

Time in, time out. I sent them to their rooms, right? Until the— and then, but then I had the second two. And so in some ways I call this my grand experiment.

I love it.

So the second two didn't have any punishment there, at least at home, which is another tricky part about this whole conversation. But at home there was no punishment. And I will tell you, as teenagers, that didn't happen. I saw the difference between a child who has been punished and a child who hasn't. And it is because when they're not punished, right, there's no adversarial relationship with the parent, right? We're in this together. And I think that is— it's one of my favorite phrasings, phrasing now, because when your child feels like you have their back and that we're in this together, they are more likely to want to support your requests. And they're more likely to not talk back. What happens in those teenage years when they're breaking away is they're finally big enough and strong enough that they're not as dependent on you. And they have had 14 years of being told what to do, when to do it, how to do it. And if they didn't do it, then they're— then they got punished, right? And so unfortunately, we have created that rudeness, right? Because we haven't developed that two-way relationship with them. You can imagine what my advice would be at this point is to sit down with them and say, hey, I'm gonna stop punishing you and we're gonna start talking through these situations together. An example I use from my own experience about curfew. So my daughter Mara had a, I can't remember, going out with some friends and I think it, pretty sure it was a school night. And so I said, let's talk about when you're going to get home. It's a conversation. And she said, is there any chance I could stay out till 11? And I said, I have to work in the morning and you have school. I said, I would rather not have to hear you come in at 11 because that'll wake me up. Could we move it to 10? And I told her the why of it and she's, yeah, she said, what if we went to 10:30? And I said, I think that could work. And so when they have a say in the conversation, then they're right. So of course she's like ready to be home at 10:30 because that was, it was agreed upon. It wasn't me saying, nope, you'll be home by 10. And if not, you're going to be grounded. And I think the other piece with that conversation too is give your children the same grace that you would give to another adult. So had I been late today, I would have texted you and said, oh my gosh, my computer just rebooted and I can't get to this. I'll be there in 5. You would not have grounded me or punished me. You would have understood that life happens. So we build that in with the kids as well. If something comes up, just let us know, right?

Yes. Yes. I can hear the parents saying, I just want them to do what they're told.

Mhm.

I know what you're going to say to that.

You do?

Can you respond to that? Yeah.

Would you want, would you want me saying that about you? If Rebecca Green would only do what I tell her to do. We have to remember that our children are little humans that came to this planet to have a life And we are here to support them in those early years when they can't fend for themselves. But our real goal is to teach them how to be successfully in the world. If we are telling them how to do that, if we are saying, "You have to do it my way," if we aren't letting them make mistakes, if we aren't letting them make decisions, then they will struggle all the more once they're out from under our roof. I say let them make mistakes while we are still there to help them. Get out of it, right? Or to support them through it. Once they leave for the workforce or for college or for whatever, you want them prepared. You want them to have made mistakes, right? And to have learned from them and to have made a lot of their own decisions. If we tell them how to do everything, we're, we're not giving them the best upbringing.

Yeah, no, that's really good advice. I'm curious, What with the two different sets, the older two and the younger two, what do you see as adults? Are they all adults now?

For the most part, the youngest is 21 now.

Okay. So a young adult. Young adult.

Yeah. And so it's not a full perfect research experience because of course, once I made that decision, there was no punishment in the house for anyone. So no one was punished. So the older two would have been like 8 and 10. When I started not punishing. So that helped a lot, but I think there were still differences. One of the things that I find fascinating about the younger two is that their relationship with adults is noticeably different than the other two. And it's because they were respected by adults. They, and they knew that they could talk to us about anything and not get in trouble. And so that's definitely a noticeable difference is just this being at ease with themselves regardless of who they're talking to, whether it's a teacher or the parent of a friend. There's a surprising confidence that they have in engaging with other people. And then Madigan, one of my other children, one time I was having this conversation like this and she was there. Right. I was at a family get-together and there was an in-law that came who I had just met and we were talking about it. And I said, let's ask directly. And what she shared is that what she has heard from friends is that she hardly ever gets angry. Right. There's this, she has a very whatever high or low threshold for getting angry. And if you think about it, and I do this exercise with parents, right? When I start out, I said, I want you to go back, close your eyes, run the movie of your life back to a time when you were younger and you got punished, and think through what happened there. And to a person, they weren't— they didn't feel remorse, they felt anger, right? And typically, next time I'll just get away with it, right? It doesn't change behavior. All it does is create that anger. You could even— the example that you just shared with your when you're talking about your daughter's friend, right? I could feel— I'm a relatively empathetic person— I could feel that teenager's anger, right? This is why I'm talking back to you. It's because whenever I say anything, you're going to take my phone away, right? Now, that's not logical, but right there, they have years and years of pent-up anger because if they struck out or struck back, they were punished even more. And so they really had to swallow all of that anger and say, I'm dependent on this person for a roof and food and back and forth to school. They're so dependent on us and we take advantage of that behavior for sure.

And I think that parents don't know that there's a different way. I think that they were raised with punishment, so everyone just thinks that's how you parent. I'm hoping that there's people listening who are I want to try this. Like, how do you even begin and change this with your kids?

Yeah, it is a real commitment, right? So when my husband and I had to sit down and say, we are committed to this, that we will not punish, you just have to make that commitment as hard as it is, right? You just have to make that commitment and then you have to have some grace with yourself as well, right? That you may, especially if it isn't like from the beginning. And remember, I had done all that research around parenting, so I feel like I had a little bit of an advantage there. But when I was doing some of the parenting classes with the redirecting children's behavior, one of the pieces of advice from that structure is refrain from using the word "don't." Instead of saying, "Don't do something," tell your child what you want them to do. And once you even commit to that, you find yourself like you want to start saying "don't." And then, and I truly even would find myself stuttering. Like they would be doing something and I'd be like, "Duh," and then I'd have to stop and think, right?

Yes.

Yeah. And say, here's a common example. They're leaning back in their chair. Don't tip the chair back. Instead, you say, hey, keep all four legs of the chair on the floor because that's a safer way to sit in a chair, right? And you say it calmly and without blame and matter-of-factly. This is what we do as humans on this planet to keep each other safe. We keep all four legs of the chair on the floor. By telling them what behavior is appropriate, it's much better than just saying don't lean back. In your chair.

Well, can I take you to the classroom, to the teachers that are listening? Because you're bringing up the chair, and I hear the stories from my kids being yelled at by teachers. And teachers, I'm not judging any of you. You have 30 children to manage. There's no judgment. Okay, so yelling at the kids because they're out of control. Oh my God, the stories of some of these classes that I could tell you. Um, the kids aren't listening, they're out of control, they're being sent to the principal, they're being sent out into the hall. Can you give them a better way. Sure.

Yeah, it's funny, I had a great conversation— this one was that last fall we had a get-together with some friends and they brought a young adult daughter who was studying to be a teacher, and we had some great conversations. Oh, I love this. So great for her to really be starting to think about a different approach, right?

Yeah.

And I think part of What could help out a classroom? Of course, there are so many things that you could do, and having to repair what's already been done would be part of it, right? And I know many of the teachers out there know a lot of these tips, but the more that the children in the classroom have a say over what happens in that classroom, the more they're going to engage rather than being told, "Here's what we're going to do." Now, I will share that all 4 of my daughters went through public Montessori schools, and that is very— and that was, of course, very intentional with my approach, right?

Yes. Yes.

That is very much a Montessori— the Montessori guide phrase is "follow the child." So Maria Montessori was, "I'm here for you. You're not here for me," right? And you're going to— I'm gonna let you follow your energy, follow what you're interested in, with still getting what they needed to learn, right? And in a classroom, first day, you don't set the rules. You have the class talk about, okay class, what are gonna— what's gonna be our classroom rules? And I think many teachers do that. That's pretty common now, right? Another tip is that give children choice on assignments.

Right?

If a learning outcome is around, I don't know, women in history, right? Give them 3 ways that they can demonstrate that they've learned something about women in history. They can write something, they can do a presentation, they could do a video, they could do a TikTok. Give them options so that they're selecting how they demonstrate that they have learned that outcome. Right? So building in that flexibility and giving children voice, right, are key. And then I would say don't punish. Don't punish children when they step out of line. One of the things, a couple things. One is it is rare, if ever, that a child purposely misbehaves, right? They're young, they're learning. They are much more likely to make mistakes than we are. I read something, so this wasn't me, this was somebody else. When a 1-year-old is learning to walk and they fall down, we would never punish them for that, but they're doing it wrong. They're making a mistake. It's what the heck? Why are you falling down? You should be walking, right? We need to keep that same attitude as they're learning and growing and making mistakes in other areas. Are they gonna make a mistake in the lunchroom and do something silly with their food? Inappropriate throwing food or— Yes, they are. They're young, they're exploring. We want them to be learning and exploring. And so rather than punishing, have a conversation. Talk about why we don't spit food or whatever it was that happened.

So it sounds— I'm thinking about the sweet math teacher who's trying to teach math problems and the boys are like just not listening. I'm sorry, I'm generalizing, but this is the example I have from the other day. But so she's trying to get these boys to follow along. It sounds like there needs to be more collaboration is what I'm hearing from what you're saying.

Yeah, let me think in an exp— because I'm sure, and I think that schools were definitely designed for girls. There is no doubt. No, I'm so designed for girls and not boys. We— boys and girls have different energy. They have different needs. They have different learning styles. And my husband talks about when he was in school, he had one teacher that really helped him quite a bit because he had a lot of energy. And that teacher let him stand in the back of the room where he could move around.

Alright.

And in the— and, right? We also don't want that child that's running through the forest. So we do need to help them see what is appropriate behavior, right? So there's a few things that a teacher could do with that, right? So one is to, when, let's say there's 3 boys acting up, right? And not paying attention, is for one to respectfully say, "Hey, I can see that the 3 of you are having trouble paying attention." Let's talk about why that is, right? And it could be, hey, he just stole my pencil or whatever, right? So have that conversation, let them have a voice and say, okay, could we for the next 20 minutes focus on this math problem? And then we'll take some time for all of you to get up and take a walk around the building and we'll come back in. Right, so that everybody can release some of that energy. So have, have a conversation with them, ask them for what you want, let them know why that's important. They do need to, to participate, right? But then have that give and take. What do you need?

Yeah, I love it. I love it. There could be a whole teacher workshop. I didn't mean to get into the classroom. It was just an example that was just brought to me. So let's go from like the toddler to the teenager and how this approach looks different with the little ones versus the older ones.

Yeah, yeah. And that's actually how I structured kind of the middle section of my book is by age. And I think what's important for parents to consider is that for anybody out there who has more than one child, you know how different they are, right? No two children are the same, and what works for one doesn't work for the other, and vice versa. And the same is true for ages. And so as a parent, you are always adjusting your parenting style. You're adjusting it based on the unique needs of each child, and you're adjusting it based on their age. So it's super important to understand that. I have a of some folks that I've been working with, and it was, they had an approach to parenting and it's, that's what we're going to do the whole time. And it really started to fail as the child grew older because it just doesn't, it doesn't work when they get a little bit older. So obviously for toddlers, you really don't want to be punishing a young child, right? They are, they are really learning, right? And they're really not, they don't get They don't wake up, but they don't have the cognitive ability to even think about doing something to push your buttons. And you made that point earlier. It isn't personal. They are not out to get us. No, they are just doing their very best. In fact, they really want to please us. It's just they don't have the cognitive ability. They don't have the emotional filter ability, right? They are just little beginnings of a human. And when they're very young, a lot of what you need to do is physical, right? If they're getting ready to do something dangerous, you just lovingly swoop them up and say, we don't, we don't go out in the street. We don't do that, right? We stay on the grass or we stay at the park, or you just want to continually do things that are, are loving and physical and flexible. One of the things I talk about is a one-finger touch. Right. So from 2 to 4, they're so curious. They're in a Montessori school. They learn their letters by drawing them on with that are cut out in sandpaper because then there's that texture. They— baby learns from their mouth. That's why they put everything in their mouth. A young child learns with their hands. And then as they get older, then it's talking and cognitive and all of that. So We had the one finger touch when that was appropriate in the store. Of course they want to grab things, touch things. It's like, you can't, you got to just use one finger. And that gives them that ability to do that touch. And you're not at risk of things getting broken or falling or whatever.

I like, where were you when they were younger? I never had that rule. I'm like, there's glass everywhere. Yeah.

And then there's those times too. And there are times when you just, do have to physically remove a child from an environment, right? I'm not going to say that doesn't happen, especially with little kids. Helping them by getting plenty of sleep, eating healthy food, right? All of those things contribute to them learning how to regulate their emotions and learning how to make— just make choices, right? So the more that you can keep them not super— right, a tired, hungry child 3-year-old, oh my gosh, you're just, you're never, that's gonna, that's just a recipe for disaster.

Same with the 12-year-old, by the way.

Yes, exactly. That is exactly true. The sugar, because then you have to start thinking about that. It's probably not a great idea to say you can't ever have sugar, right? And so it's helping them learn moderation. But say they, they want to have soda in the house. Right, or whatever, and say, let's have a conversation about soda. Here's how I know that it's, it's a nice treat, right? You don't want to make anything bad, 100% bad. It's a nice treat. It can be very satisfying. However, this is how it affects your nutrition, and we want to make sure that you get enough healthy food. What if we only have soda when we go out to dinner or on special occasions? What if we just bring soda in when it's when we're celebrating something, because to, to put something completely off the option, they're going to want it all the more, right?

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. I'm huge with that.

Good.

Good.

Yeah. My, my 3 things, especially with kind of that middle age, is make sure they have lots of places where they have a choice. Make sure you have lots of appropriate times where they have a voice. And then the other piece is help them feel capable. And I say, let them teach you something. So, you know, what do you learn in music class today? Right. And have them share with you what they learned. Right. Give them that opportunity to be the expert.

I love that advice. My daughter always says no. I like it like this, and I just need to learn from her what she can teach me in that area. I really like that advice. I think that you mention a far-reaching negative consequence of punishment. Does that sound like something you can explain what the negative consequences are of using punishment? Oh yes.

Obviously I shared the worst, the beginning of this, and again, I don't think— I know that there's lots of factors that go into those situations, But the research shows over and over again that punishment doesn't work. And in fact, I remember, and it is, it's in Alfie Kohn's book. I like remember the moment when I read punishment creates more misbehavior. And I read that and I was like, how can that be true? And then so much of what I was reading that he said made so much sense. It's wow, I really need to contemplate this. And really think this through, but it really does. And there are university research studies that have shown that punishment actually creates more misbehavior, not less. Think of the times that you've said, how many times do I have to tell you this? Yeah, if you're going to continue to punish them, you are going to continue to have to tell them that. Ah. Because yes, it is a cycle. The more you punish, the more they misbehave. The more you punish, the more they misbehave. So that is key to one of the negative consequences of this. The second one is, and people have heard this, people who harm have been harmed. Bullies have been bullied. And so that's another research-based outcome of punishment. Is that a child who is bullying other children on the playground are most likely bullied at home. It's what they know. It's what they learn. Yeah. So you're creating that— what you're saying to children is that it's okay to punish. It's okay to be mean because I'm being mean to you. I'm the person that loves you, and yet I'm saying that it's okay for me to take your phone away or ground you or do all of these things. And so you're in essence saying this is okay behavior, right? And so then they're going to do that kind of behavior. So that's, that's a piece of it. And then the third is it erodes relationships. An example, something to think about is like your checkbook, and you deposit money and you take money out. And if you're Constantly having negative to that balance, negative engagement with your child, punishing, telling them what to do, blaming, shaming, all of the yelling, all of those things are deficits in that balance versus connecting, cooperating, sharing, helping, teaching are all positives. Right? And you just have to make sure that you have a lot more positives than negatives because all those negatives, they just erode that relationship. And fortunately, most of us are very forgiving and we forgive them and they forgive us. And so we end up with decent relationships, but it can be so much better. And I have to give away that my kind of the, I don't know, the the point of the title. So I was writing the book, and at the— I was writing the conclusion and wanted to share my experience with it. And what I realized was it made parenting such a better experience for me. The gift, yeah, gift was for me because I could enjoy the process of parenting, because what I'm doing is I'm building a relationship I'm teaching, right? We're working together on things. When they forget their lunch, if I can bring it to them, I do. I show them that I've got their back and we're in this together, which means they reciprocate. If I need help, they're there because they've learned.

I told you, you speak my language.

Yeah, because controlling someone's behavior and figuring out punishments and then trying to stick to those threats This is hard, exhausting work.

For both of them, for the children and the parents. Yeah. I interviewed a psychologist and she was so funny. She was doing an impression of a mother. She was like, we walk through the house and we're like, clean this up. Did you do your homework? I told you to brush your teeth. And she's doing this impression and she's, would you want to hang out with you? Would you want to talk to you? And I'm like, no. No. It's true.

It is true.

What do you think has been the most surprising feedback from parents?

I think that, and this isn't really feedback, I think one of the hardest things about this approach is that people are told that they're making a mistake to do this. Oh.

Yes, I was going to ask you about that. Yep.

That's when you ask that question, and I know it's not exactly what you were asking, but that's what came to me is, right, people are judged for doing it.

Yeah. Yes.

And whether it's their parents or friends, I think that can be one of the challenges of this approach is that people will think that you're making a mistake and they'll tell you that you're doing the wrong thing.

Yeah.

So that's the other part of just having to be committed to this. I think that especially if you start when they're young, you'll see the positive results that you'll never go back. I think even making the shift, if you've even been doing this for a while, will take a little bit longer because your kids will always wonder if you're going to— they'll go, is this for real? Are they really not going to—

so sad. It is. Right.

To your point in thinking about that empathy for that child. Imagine going to a 13 or 14-year-old and say, hey, I've thought about this, or your dad or mom and I, we've thought about this and we want to eliminate punishment from the household, from the family. And so we're going to start addressing our differences in a different way. Can you imagine the sense of relief that would come over that person?

Yeah, I can hear the parent, and I'm only saying this because I want to promote this. I can hear the parent saying, what is this, a free-for-all? I think you mentioned that at the beginning.

Yeah.

So it's not a free-for-all. It's a— what would you define it as?

Like I said at the beginning, is that you're really stepping into a role of coach, guide, teacher, depending on the age. Rather than discipline. I don't say— because I do— you really are disciplining your child when you do this. You're showing them discipline is really about having discipline, being able to manage your emotions, right? Helping children learn how to do that, helping children learn how to negotiate conflict, not just getting mad and yelling at them when they fight. But let's talk about how, right, because conflict is a part of all of our lives, right? So it really moves from being that punisher to that teacher. And through that teaching process, because it is hands-on, this is not a just let them do whatever.

Right.

You love them and care about them, and you want them to be healthy adults. You want them to have the skills they need to be healthy, effective, Engaged, happy some of the time, adults.

So what is, what would you say for somebody who wants to start this today? Tell them a first step to take.

That first step is making the commitment of saying, this is what I'm going to do.

Yes. Yes. And you said it's not an easy commitment. So we all need to be more compassionate with ourselves as we make changes in our lives. What do you think your daughters would say about this?

They, and of course I've talked to them about it. I think they see this as this is how it should be and it's all they've known. And none of them have their own children yet, but I will be very interested to see.

I was gonna ask you.

Especially with the younger two, because that's what they've known. And so in theory, that's how they should be, right? Is, you know, they've, that's what they've learned is that you teach, you don't punish. And so that's— I'm anticipating that's how they will be with their children. But we'll see. They didn't— the younger ones didn't know anything else.

Yeah, I will be curious, hopefully, to hear one day how their parenting is going, because I'm sure they'll all be excellent mothers. I'm sure they will. They had a very good example. And I loved learning from you and hearing about this approach. I think it is Fantastic. And I would love to see more people doing this.

Yeah, me too. Of course.

So tell everyone where we can change the world one family at a time.

That's right.

So tell everyone where to find you and where to find your book.

Okay. So I have a website. It's just RebeccaWolf.com. So Rebecca and then Wolf. Theirishspellingofwolf.com, and I have resources there and information there. And then my book is available on Amazon, so you can go there and order it. And it's available as an audiobook, or as a— I'm sorry, as a Kindle, an ebook, as well as in print. And would love to have you check out those resources.

Oh, I wish I had you 18 years ago, but That's okay.

It is okay.

I can make changes today to be an even better mom. So that is exciting to me. And I just want to thank you so much for your time and for your expertise.

You're welcome. And thank you for having me on your show. It was great fun and I always love sharing. Yay.

This is Rebecca Green, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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