Episode 457: Taming Teen Anxiety

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Winey Pooza Podcast, and I am very excited today because I get to talk to the lovely Donna C. Moss. Donna, thank you so much for doing this with me today.

Thank you, Rebecca. I'm really thrilled to be here. I love doing this.

You guys are gonna love her. You're gonna love her topic. This is so needed. Um, let me tell you a little bit about Donna. She is a licensed therapist with 30 years of experience helping adolescents, young adults, and families navigate life's challenges. Her expertise spans anxiety, stress management, parenting strategies, and teen mental health. Beyond her private practice, Donna serves as clinical supervisor at Solace House USA and has led leadership roles at major organizations including the Leukemia Society of America and online communities at ivillage.com, weightwatchers.com, and disney.com. Oh my God, she said Disney! Anyways, her approach translates complex therapeutic concepts into practical strategies for everyday parenting challenges with a special focus on adolescent mental health in today's digital world. I told you how needed you are. So needed. This is perfect for our audience today. I think we have mostly mothers who are looking for your guidance, and I have so many questions, but I want to start with, what do you think some of the biggest mental health challenges you're seeing in teens today?

Right. So we see— they've been talking about this uptick in teen anxiety on the news a lot. And it seemed to start before the pandemic but get exacerbated by the pandemic. So since my focus was already like teens and young adults with anxieties, partly because I was a teen and young adult with anxiety, I— it was a perfect match for the times. And so I've been very busy ever since.

Oh my gosh, it's so rare that someone— I'm not going to say this. I was going to say it's rare that someone doesn't have anxiety.

Yeah, right? I hear that.

That's terrible, right? They should.

I know, that's very, very true though, really. There's like two kinds that I see with, with the young people. There's this sort of existential, like, what, that is the world even going to be here, which is really tough. And then there's the more like the day-to-day, like, I have to stand in front of the whole class.

And yes, yes. So I want to go back to you, if I'm allowed to. And if you think about yourself as an anxious adolescent, what do you think you needed to not be anxious?

Well, the first thing I would say is that I would have needed someone to just tell me, like, this is a thing. Like, oh, you might have a little anxiety, or you might have a little depression, especially in your 20s. As there are so many transitions. But no one told me, right? I was like, what's going on? Like, I mean, you know, I was in a sophisticated home that was quite liberal and offered me lots of opportunities to have therapy, etc. But I still was like clueless what about my own needs. I just kind of brushed it off so I could just be a teenager.

I totally understand that. Well, and I think as mothers we want to best support our teens. So what do you think that we can do as the mom at home with our kids to help them through their anxiety?

Right, so some of the things I talk about with these kids, let's say the older teens and the young adults, first, the, for Back to basics. Okay, let's talk about your daily routine and structure. Now, that might sound a little dry for them, but for me and pretty much everyone I work with, it's important. You need to have a plan, a schedule, a hobby, a thing every single day. Um, otherwise you lose your motivation. Like, if you avoid everything, then you just— then you don't learn anything. You don't grow. And I hate seeing young people like that. So I'm like, get a hobby. It can be anything, you know.

I can't— I couldn't agree more. And I will tell you from my own experience with my own children that, you know, I'm just going to give you an example. So, you know, a child who How do I say this? Overworks and is like over-anxious about like all the stuff. So like has all the activities, has all the classes, and just feels like it's all like a lot, right?

So that's my other one, the high-achieving anxious. I get a lot of those because I live in suburban New York City, right?

Yes, yes.

So you see a lot of kids who are just go, go, go and like I, you know, I— it really helps to normalize for them. Like, this is normal. You're doing a lot, you know. Pause, slow down, you know. Be good to yourself. Self-compassion. Like, it's not a race. It's not a race. Some people are lucky, they're born like, I want to be a doctor, and that's it. But the rest of us have to stumble around for a while.

Yeah.

So you have to allow for that trial and error and experimentation to learn.

I love that.

And then the other big thing is sleep, of course. Like, half of them are nocturnal. So that, that's a no-go in this society unless you're on the night shift, which 1 or 2 of my clients happen to be, which I can't even imagine what that, that is. But no, you gotta, you gotta get up on time and you gotta go to bed on time. Every day. Otherwise, all bets are off.

You need to say that again to me. I was so tired this morning. I said to my daughter on the way to school, I got to go to bed earlier.

Yeah, it's important. I mean, every summer I go through it with these kids. Every, you know, they just, they have to tweak their schedule, otherwise they can barely think straight, and it, it affects their mood. Considerably.

Well, and it's so simple yet so complex that the lack of sleep is a huge factor in anxiety. I mean, if I don't sleep for a night, if I toss and turn all night, I feel so anxious the next day.

Of course. Yeah, same, same. So it's very important to pay attention to those basics first, and then we could talk about the phones and this— the world that we live in.

Okay, let's talk about it. Let's talk about the digital world and social media and how is it affecting our children, right?

So there's a wonderful lady named Lisa Damour. She's a psychologist and she's really written some books on this topic, how to engage with the teenage teen sort of attitude. And that, and that's also what I'm trying to do. Now, there's a guy named Jonathan Haidt out of NYU, and he wrote a book called The Anxious Generation, and he nailed it. He really nailed it. He said the ubiquity of the phones around 2010, 2011, and then the parent, the fear-based parenting like stranger danger and don't go out and you can't— doesn't matter what you're doing on the phone or the console or whatever, but don't go out. That combo got married together and made fearful children, children slash adults. Yeah, so he's all about just, yeah, go outside and play, just Go, you know, take the phones at school. It's proven. So simple. Okay, so don't— you can't have it during school. That— I don't think that's a terrible idea at all. And then take it at, at 10 o'clock, shut it down. That's it. It makes it out. It works.

Yeah, I mean, I have my own thoughts about phones at school. I just see how it has settled my own child's anxiety, having her phone with her. It's interesting that he's talking about how it causes the anxiety, whereas I see how it settled her anxiety. I understand what he's saying though.

Mm-hmm. No, I think that's a wonderful point that you're making, that 99.9% of the parents will say to me, no, no, I need to know where she is. And I get that. I have two young adult girls in this world as well, and I don't have them on Find My Friends or Life360 because they wouldn't allow it, and they said it would make me too anxious, which is absolutely true. Um, but I understand. I always thought technology was good. I was an early adopter. I worked in the internet space, you know, in the early days. I thought there was so much potential, but as it turns out, girls spend twice as much time as boys do on that thing, and terrible. They you know, the perfectionism just seems to get under their skin.

Oh, the, the fact that they don't realize what they're trying to achieve from what they see on social media is what upsets me the most. The pictures and the images and curating.

Yes, yes, that is the most bad for their little self-esteem, for whatever all the reasons that we can study. It's just, it's just bad for them. Um, yeah, and I have kids who will spend entire sessions saying things like, he didn't put a like on my picture, even though I knew he was on his phone at that time.

Oh my God, this is what everyone's upset about. All these kids are looking at who's liking their posts, right?

Right. And now, you know what I do? I actually laugh at them. I like, I go, ha ha ha, that is so funny. That is not important. Like, what are you talking about? Nobody cares. And furthermore, they're also self-absorbed in their own issues. They're not going to notice that you have a pimple over here. You know, it's just Magnification, amplification of all the already teen insecurities.

Oh my gosh, you nailed it.

Yeah.

So how do, how do we know as moms if— and parents, I'm sure there's fathers listening— how do we know that when our kid is suffering from anxiety that's kind of normal and when they're suffering from something that needs more professional help?

That is the best question ever. And so The thing is, like, I see it on a spectrum, and I've been doing it for a long time. So if I hear of something that gives me a red flag in my brain, in my body, in my experience, in my learning, okay, that does not get ignored. And then in the therapy, I try to get the child's buy-in. Hey, this doesn't sound right to me. Do you mind if we bring your parents in? And they're in the driver's seat, and they can say yes or no. And a lot of times they say yes, and then they, they have a wonderful outcome when the parents come in a couple of sessions because they can finally unburden some of the anxiety.

That makes so much sense.

But there's other kids who are skating on the edge of a red flag. Yeah, it all sounds pretty normal. It's— I try to normalize a lot of it them. We all were teenagers once.

Yes.

But, um, if it's just going along, sometimes I don't call in the parents. Like at 15, 16, 17, they're just— it's just a kid who needs to talk. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, as a mother, I would say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is it interfering with their daily function?

Is that correct? Yes, I use functionality as, as a barometer a lot. Do you get up? Do you go to school? Do you eat your breakfast? Do you get good grades? You know what, good enough for me. I agree. But if there's self-harm in the mix, if there's blacking out in the mix, if there's questionable judgment in the mix those are the red flags.

Makes so much sense.

So being a professional means you're not judging them, but you're alert to these red flags.

Yes, yes. Okay, so what do we want parents not to do? What is going to totally backfire?

Of course it's individual, but, but, you know, a lot of these kids do need more support. Short. Like, they look and sound like they're mature, but they still need a lot of hand-holding, even in their early 20s. And it just hurts me when I see the parents sort of drop off. And then, like, I have a client now whose parents the whole time of high school were like, go, go, go, not good enough, you gotta amp it up for college, etc. Um, and she happens to be a minority, and and the first generation that would go to college. And, and then she finally gets a couple of good schools and the parents are like, oh, we forgot to save money, we're not— like, you're on your own. Or, we can't afford to pay for your food if you go. Like, what? You know, it's like one hand pushes and the other, you know, abandoned. There's not— where is the support for this incredible transition?

I think that there are some unrealistic expectations. It's interesting that parents are like, they're 18, and I'm like, yeah, they're still so young.

I don't think so. I mean, I know another kid I was working with, same thing. She got herself to a good college and then One of the parents said, oh yeah, I can't pay my half. It was a divorce situation. Well, what do you mean you can't? That's why you got all the lawyers. You wrote it down. You have an agreement. It's 50/50. Like, what, you're just gonna drop it now that they're in college?

Yeah, that's, that's a whole nother level of stress, isn't it?

It's horrible. I— yeah, it, it really hurts me when these kids can't complete or compete because they're just skating along the margins.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we know that our kids are out in the world doing all the things. My kids are in school and in the activities, and I want them to come home. We all want to create a really stress-free, safe home environment. So how can we do that? How can we make the home less stressful?

Yeah, I think a lot of kids are holding a lot of pain and stress of the parents, of the family, and I think it needs to get like a release valve, you know, and, you know, help, help them just Like a lot of times, like we, you know, we weren't like fabulously wealthy, but my kids would say like, I really want to do this one thing. Okay, you earn some money, I'll earn some money. Let's go 50/50. You know, be creative. Think outside the box. You want to go to a school in, I don't know, Canada? Let's work on it. Let's see. Let's, let's call, see if they have something. Like advocate for yourself, be creative, and invest the time.

I love that. Yeah, I mean, there's so many solutions to problems.

Yeah, yeah, I like to be practical with them, um, problem solving, a lot of that.

Yeah, there's so much to learn about it, and they don't instantly know how to problem solve, right?

Exactly. They, they They, um, the— their brains are not ready for prime time, but they don't— they don't realize. They don't realize. So there's a lot of bumps along the way from like high school to college.

Well, and moms talk to me all the time about the mental load. They're stressed out, they're anxious, they have so much on their plate, and then they have to deal with their children's issues too. So how can moms help themselves better to be able to help their kids?

Right, that's, that's a great question. Of course, they always say like, you got to put on your oxygen mask first or fill your cup first, and I learned that too late, um, like everybody else. And, and one, one mom came to me for divorce mediation, which I do, uh, with my husband Um, and she said, I demand $150K for all the forms I filled out the whole time for the kids, which, oh my God, it's probably true. The amount of time we spend just on forms, like, I was— could jump out a window from all the forms, like, all the, you know. So you're okay. So yes, the moms the perspective is— has to be away from perfectionism. We're back to that again. Like, yeah, yeah, it's competitive. We know, we know the world is competitive, and we know you have to honor your own needs as well. And the only way to do that in your 20s is trial and error. You have to take a risk to be happy. And there's an excellent podcast, um, TED Talk by a lady named Meg Jay. She's a psychologist and she talks about your 20s. It's not, it's not a throwaway time. It's a time to build on your experiences. And then you set yourself up so that when you wake up and you're 30, you're not like, oh shoot, I forgot to You know, do all the things.

The '20s were not easy. No, they were not easy at all. You're still finding yourself and you're still so young.

Yeah, exactly. I fumbled so many times, but it was a lot of growth too.

Yes, yes, 100%.

And then of course sometimes there's just a genetic load, never mind the motherlode or whatever. But there, there is, you know, a piece that's genetic. We don't know, is it 50% or— we don't know, right? But you— some people are born with more, um, challenges. Yes, we also have to acknowledge that as well.

Yes, yes, yes. So what do you wish that parents knew about teens' mental health?

Yeah, I wish that they would not be so self-absorbed. Like, if they're getting a divorce or if they're into their own thing, that's great, but just remember that these kids do have a lot on their plates to, to navigate, and just, um, try to lighten up with them. Try to give them that, that space to, to make mistakes.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting. I see the moms who are very into their own stuff, and I see the moms who don't have any of their own stuff. I see both, right?

But somewhere in the middle, of course, is where we want to be. Yeah, and the parents have different styles around here where I live. Um, and they're always judging each other. This one's too loose and this one's too much. And but ultimately we see that it all backfires if you don't just listen.

That's the best word. That is the best word. Yeah, they want us to listen. And I love what you said about too loose, not too loose, because I want to ask you about boundaries, because I think that We want to give teens room and we want them to gain independence, but we also want to give them boundaries. So how do we balance that?

Right, so again, I mean, I like to get like the whole picture of the kid. Like, do they have friends? How are they doing in school? How's their relationship with mom and dad and siblings? And again, If most of those things are going along, great. They're gonna just, they'll get through it. But the other ones who are suffering, they will tell you they feel really isolated and alone and scared. And they're afraid to, to try any of these things. I had a young adult who's like 20 26, and she went for a job interview, and she was convinced that she failed it. And she was sobbing and sobbing and crying, crying to me. Um, I've known her for many years, and was heartbreaking, but she got the job.

It's like my daughter who tells us she failed and then gets 100, right?

The next day she got— so what is going on like that you are so freaked out? She had a full-on panic. Oh, so it's like, okay, we can help ourselves to also regulate just by all this simple mindfulness stuff. I know it sounds cheesy, but it works.

No, tell us about the mindfulness stuff because it's super important, right?

So anything that puts you back in touch with your breath and your body helps to regulate your nervous system. And we've known this for decades, but nobody— everybody's too busy to even practice a 5-minute meditation.

Oh, that's so sad.

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like, oh, it could be, you know, walking, hiking, singing, laughing, making a picture. Just take the time, schedule the time to do something that just puts you in the flow. Like, self-care doesn't mean, like, lying on the couch like a zombie. It just means putting your phone down and smell the roses and all that stuff.

Yes.

It really helps regulate. There's a thing they called the vagus nerve in the back of the neck, and it has all these nerve endings that go all the way down your spine. And if you You know, do these things, everything, your whole system calms down.

Mm-hmm.

Then you could do the mental work, like, oh, I better not say that anymore or do that anymore. Then they have better access to their brains. Because when the brain is, when the teen brain is all flooded with emotions, what do you think happens? Nothing.

Nothing.

Yeah. So that's it.

Yeah. I mean, I know for me that when I take a walk, and if it's outside especially, I can't believe how much better my whole body feels.

Absolutely. Ab— exercise is like the number one antidepressant.

Yes.

And even that, it's like some— for some people it's like pulling teeth. And I understand, you know, if you're depressed, you by definition can't just jump up and do, you know, jumping jacks. You can't. But you got it. But otherwise, you got to keep trying to move your body.

Agree. Well, and I think one of the biggest challenges with teens that I would say is what I see is getting them to talk to you open up. Can we give the parents some advice to the ones who tell me that they can't get their kids to talk to them?

Sure, of course. So, um, you know, the, the one that's like a, another, um, cliché is like in the car, right? Because you don't have to make eye contact. They love to talk when they're in the car. Are in my experience. So, you know, also you don't— particularly in divorce, a lot of times the other parent will take both kids for the weekend. Maybe just take one, get to know the kid, give them lots of attention just by themselves. You know, there's other ideas available if you can't be consistent for every Thursday night, then be consistent for what you can be consistent for. Consistency is another huge name of the game, you know, just keeps them— it keeps them feeling safer.

Yes, a great advice. I tried to get my son to answer some questions last night, and I was like, nope, not a good time, I will try another time, right?

Right, right, right. Yeah. Um, what other things can you do to, to encourage communication? Um, you know, I think being open and honest with yourself, being open and honest about— with your relationship, your adult relationships. Um, boys are particularly hard because they basically won't go to therapy, a lot of them, unless I don't know what, they don't like it, and they're behind those video games all the time.

Yeah, you know, and, um, my friend says her son gives her one-word answers all the time. Yeah, I understand.

Yeah, they, yeah, they just don't have that bandwidth. Some kids get exhausted from school.

Yes.

That's a good point. Some kids don't eat right. Always be curious, not judgmental. That's the thing. Yeah, I tell them, you could tell me anything. It's not going to shock me. It's okay. I'm not going to tattletale on you. You got to build that trust.

Very good advice. I think that they're spending so much time online with their friends at school our influence gets less and less, I think.

Yeah.

So how do we still have the time with them, the meaningful connection with them? How do we get time with our team?

Well, that's another excellent question. You know, you just, um, I think it's just sometimes in the little moments. Like, it's not like we have to have dinner every night at 6:15 or else. I mean, yeah, yeah, you just try to push into the moment.

Yeah, I do think we look at it too big and too planful when there's lots of little moments to capture.

Yeah, it's, it's hard to know, um, you know, especially even with suicide, which I deal with as well. I mean, it's really— sometimes it really does look like that kid had no problems. What are you talking about? Really sometimes looks that way. So hard to grasp. Yeah. So when the sadness becomes darkness and then no out, no way out, that's sometimes what, what we see.

Terrible. Yeah, my husband likes to— go ahead.

No, you go. Uh, I remind them to go to the doctor. You'd be amazed how many kids haven't— didn't go during the pandemic, etc.

Oh my goodness.

You know, you could be treating a kid for depression and find out that no, they're just iron deficient. Mhm. So that's a good point. Yeah, check in with your doctor if it's really not going away, any, any of these things.

Yeah, no, that's a good thought. That's really good. I was just going to tell you that my husband makes fun of me because I call it forced family fun. My 3 kids are like, I'm busy, and I'm like, no, we are going out together today.

Yeah, yeah, that's really sweet. That's really sweet. I mean, I tried to give my kids a lot of, um, freedom.

Yeah.

Um, But I, my biggest regret was not taking those phones away at night. I think they would have read more. I think they would have slept more. I think they would have improvised more.

Yeah, I mean, I have a friend who's very strict, and at 9 o'clock every night she takes their phones, and I I like that she does that. I will tell you, at 9 o'clock, I can see— I can hear my daughter on the phone with her friends while, while I'm winding down.

Right, exactly. I know one of my clients told me she keeps the FaceTime on all night with a group of friends.

I have—

but they're, they're just sleeping.

Yeah. Oh yeah, I've heard that before. Not my children, but I have heard that.

Yes.

Crazy.

I never heard that before.

Yeah, I know, I know. Oh boy, I feel like I asked you so many questions. What do you think?

Good questions.

I'm so glad. Anything I didn't ask you that you think is important for people?

Yeah, keep in mind that there's a lot of black and white thinking in this age group as well. Yes. And continuing through the 20s, and we all know that Boys develop even later. So I'm not— it's not surprising to hear, to listen for this. When I work with young adults, you hear a lot of it. Like, I'm either gonna get this promotion or I'm gonna go in a black hole. Those are— that's it. Black and white. So I always call that out when we're chatting. Like, do you see how you're, you're going to extremes with this?

Yes, that, that's great. That's great to point that out. I hear—

I know, because even the kid could be in advanced math, but she doesn't understand nuance and gray areas and uncertainty and ambiguity. And some days I like my friends and some days I hate them. There's much, much more complicated.

Yeah, and I think, I think gray areas is the perfect subject because people need to learn that there's lots of gray.

Right, right.

Yeah. Well, I can't thank you enough. I feel like I really had so many questions to ask you.

Well, I really appreciate your questions. Completely synced up with how I work, so It's— I really appreciate you.

Well, I appreciate you, and I love what you're doing, and I know how needed it is, what you're doing.

Thank you. Well, I made a course. It's on my website, donnasiemoss.com.

Tell us.

Yes.

Tell us all the things. Anything else you want to tell everyone?

No, that's the big thing is this course. It's also— you can get credit for it, 2 credits in New York for social workers or mental health.

Wonderful.

And yeah, it's like a 2-hour class that I prerecorded, and now it's made it available off, off my website.

Awesome. Well, I need continuing ed, so I'm gonna go do it.

Go do it.

And what about people being able to see you? Are you taking new clients?

Yeah. Yeah. You can also reach out to me through the website. I, I'm taking new clients. I'm in, in in New York, uh, and I'm also licensed in Vermont.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Donna. I loved talking to you.

You too. I can't wait to do it again.

This is Rebecca Green, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time. This show has been produced by Market Domination LLC. To discover how you can have your own show completely done for you and turn it into a real published book and become the authority in your marketplace, go to www.marketdominationllc.com/podcastoffer.