Episode 508: The Silent Burn and Healing From Gaslighting

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Winey Plousa Podcast, and I am so excited today because I get to talk to the wonderful Deborah Griffiths. Deborah, thank you so much for being here with me.

Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited.

I, as I just told her, this was a request. This topic was a request, so I am really excited to deliver what all of you want to hear. So let me tell you about Deborah. She is an author, advocate, and survivor whose debut novel, Torched: Burnt by a Gaslighter, draws from lived experience to illuminate the subtle and damaging effects of emotional manipulation. Born and raised in the Los Angeles area, Deborah earned her Bachelor of Science in Organizational Leadership from Biola University. That's really cool, by the way.

Thank you.

And she built a respected career in the homeowners association industry. Her writing today focuses on the emotional aftermath of gaslighting, narcissistic behavior, and hidden abuse, offering readers a path toward clarity, resilience, and reclaiming their voice. A proud mother of 3 grown children, Deborah centers her life around faith, family, and helping others recognize red flags before they are burned. So I couldn't love that more, what you are seeking out to do to help people. But I have to ask you, tell us what inspired you to take your personal experience and write a novel about it.

Interestingly enough, I was having lunch one day with a friend who told me that his book was about to be published. So I was asking him about his book And he conveyed some incidents in his life that I realized were very similar to things that I— that had happened to me. And I began to think, hmm, I mean, I wonder if anybody would want to hear my story, or do I even have a story, much less can I write a story? Because becoming an author was never on my bucket list of things to do. So I left the lunch, and you know, you go home and you start thinking, and I started getting that little nudge. And then I reached back out to my friend and I said, hey, um, would you mind giving me the contact information for your publisher? So he did, and I reached out to the publisher and I said, you know, I'm, I'm not sure I have a story. And he said, well, everybody has a story. And I went, yeah, but would anybody be interested? And he said, I tell you what, write a few chapters, send them over to me, and I'll take a look. And I did. And within 24 hours, he calls me and he said, write your story.

Oh.

And I said, say what? No, you need to write your story. I said, who's going to read this? And he said, write your story. So I did. And mind you, what had happened to me started like almost 40 years prior, but I— it was through a 17-and-a-half-year marriage, so it had been really 25 years since I had left the marriage to and began writing this book. A great deal of time had passed, right? So I just started writing, and it took— only took me 5 weeks to write it. I never ran into writer's block. I never, never any of that. It just was like it was meant to come out.

Wow, that's beautiful. That's a beautiful story. I mean, wow, 5 weeks is impressive.

It is. I just— anytime I would— before I would go to work, after I came home from work, you know, maybe write 30 minutes here, 30 minutes there, sometimes maybe 15 minutes. It was just enough to keep to, you know, to keep going and retweaking and things of that nature.

I'm very impressed.

Thank you, thank you. But when I finished the book and I wrote the words 'the end,' I was so proud of myself on— for two reasons. Number one, how far I had come and the healing I had done. And two, that what I thought might have triggered me in the past, some of those triggers in the past were no longer triggering me.

Oh, see, and for people who don't know this, that is a true sign of healing right there, when your triggers don't trigger you, right?

Absolutely.

That's amazing. Well, so for everybody who doesn't know what gaslighting is, do you feel like you can give them an easy definition of that?

It really is a emotional manipulation, where the perpetrator will make the victim start doubting what they're thinking, what they're feeling. You begin to think, did I imagine that? Or maybe, is there something wrong with me? And eventually, over time— and it takes time, it's not something one full-blown incident, it is time, just this little chip, chip, chip, chip, chip away. Yes, yes. It's not this one bang thing. And where the, where the victim really loses themselves, they lose their self-esteem. And in my case, it had chipped away to the point where I attempted suicide.

Oh, oh my gosh.

Now, by the grace of God, he still kept me here, right? So I'm so sorry. I didn't realize it. It's okay. This is all part of my, my healing journey. And And I write about that even in the book. Again, it's just the self-esteem. You're left with, who are you? Why do I value? Why am I here? And that's the aftermath of being, you know, with being a victim.

Well, and I think that women miss the and I shouldn't say women because I'm sure there's men who are experiencing this too, but what are the signs? Like, they miss the signs. So like, what were the subtle red flags that people tend to miss?

A lot of it is— it's called love bombing, where they come off really charming, you know, everybody in the world, you know, loves the guy or the girl, you know, whatever the case may be. And yet You know, what people see on the outside, it's not the same person that behind closed doors. And, uh, so that also adds to that self-doubt that creeps into you, into your mind.

But a lot of it starts with love bombing.

You know, they come off very charming, they're bringing you flowers, they're taking you all to these nice places, wine and dine you, and then all of a sudden something will happen and you're like Okay, and it's really easy to chalk it off to like, okay, maybe they're having a bad day, mm-hmm, and you know, maybe they didn't get that job promotion, you know, something is triggering that. So you look— tend to look the other way, and then, you know, time will go on and then they love bomb again, and then something else will happen. So it's this constant back and forth with the the love bombing and showing the affection. And let's face it, as a human being, we all want to love and be loved. So sometimes we do things to get love, to be loved. Yeah, we shouldn't always accept. It's not respectful to who we are.

Agree. Agree. It takes, it takes self-esteem to know that. And I think that, like you said, you get so beaten down that you don't have the self-esteem to understand that.

Right, right. And it's over a period, like I said, over a period of time.

Yeah.

So it, it, it's just this slow, slow, slow chipping away.

Yes, yes. So What do you think the difference for some— just so that people understand the difference between a misunderstanding versus a manipulation?

That's a great question. You know, a misunderstanding, uh, is kind of a one-off in that maybe you thought your partner was going to do this and instead did that, and then you have that conversation. But at the end of the day, that argument or conversation You should be left feeling like you've been heard, been understood. Maybe you're not agreeing, you know, you agree to disagree, but at least you feel like you've been heard and understood. And same thing with the partner. They feel that same respect with being heard and understood. Yeah. Emotional manipulation is totally different in that Something can happen, and yet the one party will make it seem like it's your fault. They don't, they don't really hear you or understand you. You begin to question, well, did I misunderstand that? You begin to doubt yourselves, like, did I not understand what, what I was supposed to do, or that what he was supposed to do? It just creates this, this doubt, continual doubt about that. And again, that's part of that chipping away.

Yes, yes.

And that you're not truly heard.

Yeah. Well, and I think that we are really good— I find that women are really good at their instincts. They have instinctual feelings, and I think we tend to sometimes push those instincts aside and ignore them. So I mean, can we, can we help people? Like, how do they start to hear themselves?

That's a good point because I know for myself I did not listen to some of my intuition, uh, and I'll use this as an example. On my wedding day, as I'm getting ready to walk down the aisle, my dad's on my arm and all of a sudden my stomach took this huge flip. And I mean, so much so that I was jolted. And I remember grabbing onto my dad's arm, right? And he said, you don't have to go through with this. And I'm like, what? There's 200 pairs of eyes, you know, looking at me. And I'm like, say what? And, and he said, no, you— and I said, no, no, no. And I just wrote it off as wedding day jitters.

Yeah.

And, uh, I ironically, 17 and a half years later, I pick up this magazine from a mag, uh, the grocery store, you know, that the National Women's magazines and stuff. And they had a recipe on the front. I did not realize that there was an article in there about verbal abuse. It took me a couple days before I picked up and read that article. And she talked about her stomach turning when her husband would come home. And during that time, my ex was traveling quite a bit, would be gone for most of the week and then come home. Well, one time he came home— this was after I read the article— opened up the garage door and my stomach turned. And I'm like, no. The next week it happened again. And I was like, okay. And this was about the time I was entering therapy and starting to say, you know, there's something, there's something wrong here with this picture. I didn't quite know what what was happening. Um, but going back to if you feel something, if your instinct, if your body— your body will tell you the truth before your mind will. Yes. And if your body is telling you something, take a pause, right? And then start writing down, is, you know, what, what is going on? You can factually, not, you know, you can put your emotions and stuff in there, but factually, and write down what it is you're thinking and feeling. Because through all that, the fog starts lifting and you start to see some clarity. But you got to listen to your inst— you got to listen to your body.

So tell us tell us your story. How did you begin the decision that you were done?

How did that begin? It began in the psych ward after I had attempted suicide.

Oh my gosh.

And the doctor came in, the psychiatrist that I was seeing, he said, your environment is making you sick. I knew what he meant. And those were, you know, he never really said too much to me even during the therapy sessions, but when he spoke, it like hit like a punch, you know. And I knew what he meant. And my mom and sister had flown up from California as I was living in Georgia at the time, and we talked because I'm also a cradle Catholic, and so the word divorce is never in our vocabulary.

Sure.

But When my mom came to visit, we had some conversations, and she said, you know, I said, I need to leave this marriage, and she said, I agree. So for me, that was like having the family blessing, you know. And, and, um, that's in this, you know, because you're in the psych ward for 72 hours. So during that time, I started making plans to, you know, I knew I needed to find a place to live. I had not worked. I was a stay-at-home mom. So it was like, how am I going to get a job? And realized I had more skills than I gave myself credit for and started putting plans in place to, you know, to move out and, you know, begin a new life.

Well, and I'm listening to this thinking about the women who they have young children, let's say, which makes it a lot more complicated.

It does.

Um, I've heard stories about women who want to stay to protect the kids, right? Because if they leave, then there's joint custody and they're not around to protect the kids. I've heard so many, you know, reasons of why moms aren't leaving. So, and I don't mean to keep generalizing to moms, I just haven't had any dads come to me.

I understand.

I know it's usually women. It's usually women that talk to me is what I'm saying. So I mean, any advice to those women who just feel stuck where they are?

Oh, I understand that feeling all too well. My 3 kids at the time, I think the youngest one was about 3 or 4, the oldest one was 14. Uh, he ended up staying with his dad because the state of Georgia recognized that he was old enough to choose which parent to live with. He chose his dad. I understood why. So I had the other, the other two. I, I get it. Oh, I heard his parting words to me were, 'You will never make it and no one will ever love you.' Yeah. And these are common, these are common phrases that women hear.

Yeah.

And did I have that fears like, what, what am I gonna, you know, how am I going to support myself? Yes, I had those fears and doubts, every single one of them. But I've later— there's an acronym for fear that I, that I recently learned. It's, it's False Evidence Appearing Real. Yes. And when you're in an emotionally abusive relationship, the other partner who's doing the manipulating will tell you these things. They are trying to control you. They are trying to tell you you're not good enough, you're 'You're not good enough for this.' And let me tell you, you are more than good enough. Mm. Yeah, there are resources. There are plenty. There's a lot more resources out there than there were when, you know, 25, 30 years ago. So there's resources to help you, you know, reach out to, to family. I will say that if you're in a, especially a physically abusive relationship please put a plan together where you can leave safely. Yes. The Domestic Violence Awareness Hotline, which is 1-800-799-SAFE, S-A-F-E, they have resources that can help you make it, you know, make the plans and that, that you need to make to, to leave safely and help rebuild your, your life.

So for the women who are staying, and they have the children and they want to protect the children from the narcissism, from the manipulative behavior. Um, any advice for them?

I would ask this question: what is it that you're showing your children? Because one of the things that I realized when I was in the psych ward is I knew I needed to do something different. I had 3 choices. I could have either worked to leave this earth altogether, continue staying where I was and just feeling like I'm existing like a— like nothing, or make the change. And a lot of times people won't make the change until the pain of where they're at is greater than the change, greater than the pain of making that change.

Yeah, yeah.

So I did not want my kids— I realized this when I'm laying there thinking about all this. I didn't— I, I thought about what is it that I want to show my kids as a mother and as a woman. I did not want my kids to be abusers, learn to be, you know, abusers themselves. Yeah, because this is all learned behavior, a lot of this. Or be victims themselves. So those were the choices that I realized I had to make, is what is it that I need to show and teach my kids.

I mean, it takes so much courage to do what you did, as you know, and you had to start to rebuild your life. What do you think— how do you think you were able to start rebuilding? What helped you?

My family, you know, the support that I had from my mom and my sister and even my father. My father at that time had a lot of physical issues, so he couldn't fly out to California. But, you know, I know emotionally he was supportive. My faith. My faith, yeah, my faith really guided me. I'm a firm believer that I don't know how, but by his grace, he's always provided and taken care of me, even when I couldn't see the forest through the trees, right? Or the trees through the forest. And, you know, my kids. You're focusing on, on them, on the, on what kind of life I would like to see for them.

How did the kids do with the whole adjustment?

I'm laughing because that was a, that's been a challenge. So my oldest one kind of experienced parental alienation, so for a while didn't really have much of a relationship, but I will say that Things are much, much different now. It took probably a good 15 years, you know, to turn that around. You just have to be consistent with trying to keep that communication open. My other son, who was the middle child, he ended up going down the illegal drug route. He had a lot of anger, and I realized this right after, you know, the divorce and the separation. So I tried to get my kids into family therapy and stuff as, as quickly as, as possible. And I too was— have on and off through the years I've done therapy and stuff when I realize I get stuck and not really kind of know why. Again, by the grace of God, he, he hit rock bottom. I mean, it got to the point where I had to kick him out.

Oh my goodness.

And really play that tough love. And I've since told him, I said, you know, I know that was That was hard, but it was much harder on me than it was on you. But it got him to the point to where he finally said, you know, all this time I was angry with you when it should have been Dad. I said, I know that. And he turned his life around. He dropped out of high school, went back, got his high school diploma, went into the Army, served a year in Afghanistan, and has really turned his life around. So I couldn't be— I couldn't be prouder. And then my, my daughter, uh, has always been kind of like on the needy side, or clingy, you know, clingy side. But she's eventually has kind of grown out of that. Right now she's, she's been married for now for 4 years and has a, has a beautiful little boy. So her, her life is good.

Well, I like the happy endings.

Yes, yes, it took— it doesn't happen overnight. It's, it's Patience and prayer and perseverance.

Well, and people tend to see the good and they don't see what it took to get to the good. And man, did it take you a lot to get there. So wow.

Wow. You know, you have good days and bad days. I mean, I look back, it's like, where did the time go? But you know, but sometimes when you're in that middle of the storm you don't, you don't realize that the storm is going to pass. Yeah, it's just, you're just so caught up in trying to keep your head above water.

Yes.

And I, I get that, I get that feeling all too well.

Well, and you have learned so much in the last 25 years. Has it been 25 years?

Yeah.

So can you tell us some of those lessons that people can learn from you?

Don't give up.

That's a really good one.

Don't give up. I mean, I know it's hard. It's hard to make that choice to leave. Yeah, but life is better on the other side when you start— when that fog begins to lift and you realize what a capable, beautiful human being you are. I don't know what more to say other than that. Just don't give up. And you know, you don't need to stay stuck. Don't stay stuck. You have a purpose.

Well, and I'm sure that you have different boundaries with people than you did.

Yes.

Can you talk about some of your non-negotiable boundaries?

Well, that is one thing I realized is I didn't really have any boundaries. I wasn't even sure. I didn't even realize that I was what's known as a codependent. You know, dealt a lot with codependency. I'm a people pleaser, an empath. You know, I'm all the right categories fit to be sucked in by an emotional manipulator, right? And that is one thing I had to learn, is what are those boundaries. And like you said, there's— there's— and I would encourage anybody, you know, even if you're in the middle of one of these relationships, take a piece of paper and write negotiable and then non-negotiable and figure out what those two categories look like for you. You know, the negotiables are like, I like horseback riding but my spouse or partner does not, that's not a deal breaker, you know, that's not, that's not a deal breaker. But, um, respect, being kind to people, my kids, my faith. Yeah, don't, don't monkey around with those.

Yeah, I'm working on boundaries with my youngest, and that's a whole nother story.

Yeah, and then there's boundaries as a parent, you know, with the parent-child too. Yes.

Boundaries with everybody in our life, right?

Absolutely. You know, and there's, there's a, a phrase I saw many years ago, and I've tried to raise my kids by this, and it's like, there's two gifts you can give your kids. One is roots and the other's wings. But how do you know if it's the roots you need to give them or the wings, you know, to let them try to make their, their, their decisions and let them fall out of the nest a little bit, but before catching them. That's the, that's the, the challenge.

Yeah, that's a whole nother podcast that you and I could do. So if someone is recognizing themselves in your story, can you tell me what your message is to her right now?

You don't have to stay stuck in this situation. You really don't. There's help out there. Life is so much better on the other side. Nothing— there is no price you can put on your peace, your self-esteem. Uh, there's help out there. I even coach women myself, so people can reach out to me.

That's wonderful.

I, I, I understand. I understand all of the challenges But life is just so much better on the other side, even with the challenges of rebuilding. So much of it is you've got to take the time to heal and give yourself that grace to heal. You've been through trauma. What I know now with that I didn't know that then, 25 years ago, is you could be dealing with PTSD.

Mm, yeah, very true.

You're dealing with trauma that you're not even recognizing. And listen to your body. If your body is telling you something, listen. So many times I'm hearing stories from so many women that the trauma of that fight or flight and that the, uh, hormones and stuff that are triggered by that, it starts to cause physical ailments, you know, like stomach issues, bowel issues, headaches. Who, you know, who knows what else. But if you start realizing you're having— you're not feeling well, you're maybe fatigued, you're not sleeping, start— take that pause and write down what, what's going on and listen to your body.

Yeah, I'm, I'm hearing the women who tell me that financially it's very hard for them. Which I know you dealt with and you were able to do it.

Yes, yes. And part of that is it really is hard. And I haven't always been the best with spending myself. I wish I had had some resources, you know, then as there are now. There's financial advisors out there. There's people that can help you put a budget in place. Really, it's about learning to live within your means. And when you're coming out of one type of environment where, you know, maybe you didn't have to work and you now have to work, there's a huge adjustment. And don't become resentful of the choice, you know, don't be resenting the choices that you make because you can't put a price on your peace. You just can't.

Oh my God.

Yeah. And so there's ways, there's people that can help. Um, you know, I had to learn like insurance, you know. Well, what insurance do I need? Well, I know I need one for, for the car that I'm driving, you know, and realize that through my employer I was able to get medical insurance, you know. Do I leave? Do I need life insurance? Do what? What, what is it that I need? Those are just simple questions. Um, including like, you know, figuring out where you're going to live that's a nice enough place, that's safe enough, but one that you can truly, you know, afford, where you're not having to deal with eviction, you know, later down, down, down the road. Because you're trying to stabilize things, especially if you're leaving with kids. You've got to try to stabilize the situation as quickly as possible, but it's still a process.

Well, and, you know, I could go on and on with questions, but is there something in particular that you think I didn't ask you that's important to talk about?

Oh, um, I think you've captured everything. You know, I just want to reiterate that we all have a purpose, and I want to say that— do I regret that 17-and-a-half-year marriage? No. And here's why: I would not have had the 3 kids that I had. I would not have learned what I've learned, and it put me on a trajectory that now I can help others see some of these red flags. Don't ever be embarrassed that you have found yourself in this kind of situation. The brightest and the best of us have been manipulated. So, and don't ever be ashamed. Many women don't want to leave because they're afraid. I know when I first wrote my book and was getting ready to release it, I started to talk about it and thinking, oh my God, what are people going to think? Are they going to read the book? Are they, you know, what are they going to think about me? Why, why, you know, are they going to think, why did she stay so long? And the truth goes back to those are all fears, those are all the negative thoughts, and none of that came true. As I started talking about it, I had people come up to me at industry events and say, thank you for sharing your story, thank you, it happened to me. And that all of those fears, all of those thoughts quickly vanished. So word of advice, if you're thinking about leaving, put a plan in place and think about yourself and your kids, because life is really better on the other side.

Well, and they can get help from you. So can you tell them where to find you and your book and your podcast and all the things?

Absolutely. Uh, my podcast is Bent Not Broken: Starting Over After Divorce. You can find it on Apple, Spotify, all your favorite audio platforms. I also have a link on my website to both. I, I have weekly blogs, uh, and my website has my services, and that website is www.broken2boldness.com. And that's really where you can find me. You can send me an email, you can get on my blog list and get, you know, weekly, weekly blogs, emails. Just about rebuilding ourselves and, you know, reminding ourselves of our value, of our worth.

Well, I can't thank you enough for sharing your story with us and for helping so many people. I really appreciate your time today.

Oh, thank you for this opportunity.

This is Rebecca Green, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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