Episode 519: Conflict Resolution Skills We Were Never Taught

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Green for the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am a very excited lady today because I get to talk to the fabulous Kimberly Best. Kimberly, thank you so much for being here with us today.

I'm excited to be here, Rebecca. Thank you for having me.

I did forget to ask you, do you want me to refer to you as Kimberly or Kim? I should have asked that question.

Oh no, call me Kim, it's easier. Yeah, that's perfect.

Well, Kimberly is a beautiful name, so you never know. Um, Kim is an RN and an MA. What does MA stand for?

It's my master's degree in conflict management.

Oh, she's a mediator, a conflict consultant, a speaker, a trainer, and she didn't start her career in mediation, everybody. She started in critical care, which I'm very fascinated about. What she witnessed in the ER and through her own life experiences showed her how badly we need conflict Management skills. So now everybody knows why I'm so excited to talk to you, because we all need you. And, you know, I got to start with the ER. Tell us about that. How did that shape your approach to conflict resolution and knowing that we all needed you?

No, that's a great question. Um, though honestly, it was a bad divorce that did that shaping, so we definitely need to talk about that. But yes, uh, the one thing I learned working in critical care, um, when people ask me what I do for a living now, I say I talk about the two things nobody wants to talk about, and that is death and conflict. Uh, um, but they're the most critical things in our life because the rest of our life, the next moment, our entire future and legacy depends on having those conversations. So I just wanna say thank you for being brave enough to lean into the conflict one, uh, because conflict is normal. It's just that most of us haven't learned the skills how to do it. Do you want me to go into the story of why conflict management?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. So true story. Um, you know, 20 years of marriage and, um, uh, things did not work out. I try, try to choose my words carefully here. And my ex-husband had, uh, a very, very, very, very mean attorney. And the consequences of how that divorce went have changed the trajectory of my family, have shaped our future forever. And that is in the relationship between my kids and their father, uh, the new wife, uh, uh, input in that. Just a lot went sideways, right? And the process was, um, devastating, as, as people who go through divorce know. It's beyond devastating because I was 50 years old at the time too and thought that I should have my life together. And then my brother, who was an educator, said, "Hey, Kim, have you heard about this thing called mediation?" And I had not. And so I Googled it, and this was, you know, 15 years ago, and you put in mediation and it'd say, "You mean meditation." So it's that new. So I learned a little bit about it, and I went to Hofstra and took a couple courses on something called transformative mediation. And what I learned was, oh my gosh, we can disagree And instead of making somebody right and somebody else wrong, we can disagree and work toward a solution that works for both people. And then just all kinds of, all kinds of tools that can be used in the process. So I'm like, we all need this. This is going to save the world. So I went to graduate school then in conflict management and, uh, decided that everybody wanted to talk about conflict and know how to do it better so they didn't end up in horrible divorces with me and attorneys. And I was wrong. Everybody didn't want to talk about it. What sometimes we want to do instead is blame people, and blame is not a solution. I mean, shut down because we don't have other tools to do it. And so I, I love my job. For me, it's like the critical care nurse.

Yes.

But the critical care of the soul.

Oh, I love that. You know, it's if you can do conflict Well, it can go well, but it doesn't. It goes south. So, I mean, let's talk about what would you have liked to have seen go different now knowing what you know?

Oh, so much.

Yeah.

So I always tell people with no pride, just a fact, I believe in being an excellent practitioner at whatever I do. So I do believe I'm very, very good at my job in conflict management. Unless it's my own conflict. Because the problem with conflict is, uh, when I first started practicing, people would come in and be like, he's a narcissist and she's a narcissist. And so I said to a counselor friend of mine, like, are there that many narcissists in the world? And she said, Kim, none of us are so narcissistic as when we're in pain, because when we're in pain It's all about us.

Yeah.

And I think that's an important thing to know because we can't see outside of ourselves sometimes when we're in pain. But if we can come from a place where we love someone else enough or care enough about somebody else that we don't have to make them wrong or make them the problem, then we can resolve a problem together. So rule number one of many rule number ones is The person is not the problem. Separate the person from the problem, which means we can't solve for people. Nobody's going to fix Kim. But what problem am I having with Kim? And, and how can we solve that? And how can we solve that together? And there's things like, whose problem is it? Is it my problem that I have a problem with me, or is it your problem that you— you know, there's just so many different skills that fit together so nicely that give us a voice and choice and agency rather than just being the victim of somebody else's behavior that we don't like.

Well, and I think that we get so heated and stressed that we don't think very rationally. So what do we do in that moment when we're ready to like attack?

So you're 100% right. If we are in attack mode, we cannot think rationally. It's not true about the amygdala. Amigdala hijacked. That's been debunked. So let me just put that out there, because if people are still saying that, it's not true. Our whole freaking brain takes over. There's no just amygdala thing going on.

Okay, that's good to know.

Yeah. And, and we are hardwired for survival. Yeah. And we see threats where they're not threats. And everything that we take in, our brain is hardwired to relate to something in the past. So I get people who say, well, I know what she's going to say. I know what he's going to say. No, you don't. You know what he said or she said. So really kind of being present for one thing and recognizing one more part of that is our brain is hardwired to make up a story in the absence of a story. And think about this, Rebecca. What are the odds if I make up a story why you have the face you have on right now that I'm going to be right? Because who knows? It's countless things, the reason, and I'm not going to guess it. But we guess it and then it becomes our truth.

Oh yeah, we do.

And then it becomes the truth, right? Yeah. Like, it's so funny because my partner's brain is hardwired to do that so fast that you can see a cloud in the sky and say the whole day is going to be cloudy. And I'm like, No, this moment is cloudy, right? Yeah. So when we feel ourselves that way, I mean, the trauma nurse in me is still first do no harm. First do no harm. You have to have a moment to come back to being able to show up the way you want to show up. So take a timeout. Now, taking a timeout doesn't mean I'm not going to talk to you anymore. Right. And you don't speak for 3 days. It means I take a timeout and I say, give me 30 minutes, give me an hour, give me whatever, and I'll come back to you. Because I, I just had a conversation today with someone who, um, the couple uses silence as a weapon.

Yeah.

And most of us have abandonment problems. Nobody likes to be shut out. We are so hardwired for connection that it can be cruel to shut down on somebody. However, as the very good trauma expert, my response to being traumatized is to shut down. And I have to go off and get my feet back under me again and then show back up who I want to be. That's the question. Who do I want to be when I come back? Do I want to win or do I want to try to negotiate a better relationship moving forward?

That's really good advice. I, I think that a lot of people— Stonewall, right? The silence, the Stonewall. And I think a lot of people just like want to avoid it. So to the people who feel that way, and I've been guilty myself, why do we avoid the hard conversations?

Oh, couple things. So you're right, most people are avoiders.

Yeah.

And here's why. Are you going to go cook a soufflé if you don't know how? No, we don't know how to have the hard conversations. And there's a couple things we tell ourselves that are not true. And I'm just going to tell you now, Rebecca, and everybody listening, it is not true that you are responsible for how somebody feels if you are being honest and kind with them. So that's true. I think to stop mitigating for— I can't tell her that because she'll get mad. That's a good way out of it. But if we tell ourselves that in the— well, I realized I wanted everybody to be happy, I wanted to be nice, and that was important to me. But being honest is a higher value for me than being nice. And I realized one day that by being nice, I was being dishonest. If I say something is okay with me and it's not, I might be thinking I'm being nice, but I'm being dishonest. And if you're being dishonest, you're not being nice. I mean, let's just It's true, but sometimes I'm tired. So it's like, it's like, I will tell you, this is, this is me, this is how I feel, this is my experience. And let the person have the reaction, because what most people say is, well, I don't want them to. Why? Why not let them? Because that's a normal reaction. It's a normal reaction to get upset if I tell you, hey, you really hurt my feelings when this happened. I'm very this is that. Yes, it's okay. It's the what next that matters, right? So I think our fear of emotions and our lack of tools— and emotions are not bad. They're information. And I want to say one more thing about that, Rebecca, is whatever somebody's reaction or response is, that's for now. They need a moment to digest it. They need that moment to say, oh my gosh, that was horrible. And then we calm down, the problem is we don't go back and finish the conversation because we think the damage is done. My job, and actually what mediation does, is let's go back and finish that conversation and have a better outcome.

Absolutely. I think you're right. And I think that I have learned over the years that the silence just is like so hurtful. And I have to say, because I get like flooded with emotions, and I have to say to my husband, I'm flooded. Like, I can't even think. I can't talk to you. I promise I'll come back.

That's beautiful. That's perfect. And you know what I love about that is by saying what's going on with you, you also give him permission to do the same. That's a, that's a level of vulnerability, right? It's like, it's like, oh, you make me mad again. I'm not going to talk for an hour. That's not it. I feel flooded. You know, I feel flooded. I feel overwhelmed. And I'll even sometimes start with, look, this is me. Not you, but this is what's going on for me. And continuing this education— I mean, this conversation is going to get us nowhere. This is not going to be— this is not going to have a good outcome because of where I am. We can do that without blaming the other person for where we are in the conversation.

Absolutely. And I do want to share that he told me something that was transformative that you're going to love, and I think you might have mentioned this. He said, my intentions are never to upset you. My intentions are never to hurt you. So it's like you think that their intentions are bad when they're not trying to upset us. So that was huge for me to learn.

That's a beautiful point. And I want to put exclamation points on both ends of that because again, there's bias. I have a friend who does similar work. It's like, never use the word bias, but we have hardwired shortcuts. And one hardwired shortcut is to assume the worst. And, uh, and when it's us though, so here's where the bias is. When it's us, it's like, oh shoot, we're good people, we made a mistake. When someone else makes a mistake, they have a character flaw, you know. So, oh my goodness, or they're out to get us. I mean, it's just, uh, I wish I could think of the name of the— it'll come to me at some point. But, um, Oh, it's the fundamental attribution error is the name of the bias. But yeah, it is having some grace and understanding. You don't know why the person said that. You don't know their intention, but assume the best and ask why. Like, you don't even have to make up a story. I think what's missing for us so much is just asking the questions. And Brené Brown started me using the story I'm telling myself. So the story I'm telling myself by your silence is that I did something to piss you off.

Yes.

And I've never had a problem, even in mediating high-end things, saying, so the story I'm telling myself, or the story I hear you telling yourself, it's not that you're lying. It's like, this is what's going on in this moment. Is this— is it right? And people will be like, no. The problem is the people are like, nah, you're thinking this. Like, we need to completely let go of the thought that we know why somebody did something and let them have ownership in their own voice.

Such good advice. So we know that couples fight, and I do want to talk about kids next, but we know that couples fight. So how do they have a conflict in a way that strengthens them versus harms them?

Yeah, um, there's a lot. You, you could hold 34 podcasts.

I know. It's a 30-minute answer.

I think it's impossible when you're in a relationship to not step on each other's toes. Right. So we're human after all. I think if the focus is on an outcome that works for both of us, identifying the problem again, trying to have a conversation. Honestly, I'm all for a third party neutral who doesn't have skin in the game too to help do that. I believe we all need a muse, right? Like, it's not a weakness. It's a learning process. This. I think sometimes to think of it from a learning lens, like here's something new that we need to learn about each other for, you know. I think sometimes we have to accept our differences and just not deadlock. I mean, um, um, John Gottman, who I'm sure you know, says that there are like something like 6 things every couple has that they'll fight about for the rest of their lives. It's going to be an issue they don't agree on. Maybe it's 4. I don't know, it's not very many, but it's enough that you're like, oh, okay, this is normal. This is normal. We don't have to agree on everything, you know. And then I guess the other part of that is, um, I have these, uh, conflict conversation cards, and I intentionally made card number 1 say, just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm against you. It means I'm different than you.

I love that.

It means I'm different than you. I'm me. You're you. Different biologies, different backgrounds. We see this differently. Yes, it's just, it's just information. It's not a threat to your relationship because you don't agree.

Yeah, that's true. And we tend to marry people who are not like us. And I say I didn't want to marry myself.

Well, I did. You know, I'm still torn on that one. I don't know. There's a part of me that says yes, if you have the great complement, that's so good. Like, I get why opposites attract. Because you have the potential to fill, but you also have a tension, you know, a tension between you all. So developing those skills, and it's a journey. I just want to say it's a journey. And, but you do your kids a service, going back to that, when you can demonstrate and help them figure out how to have the conversations.

Oh my God, let's talk about these children.

Let's do it.

Um, so I have 3 teenagers.

Oh, bless your heart.

Kim has 5 children, everyone.

Mm-hmm. I survived 5.

I'm just blown away by that because I told you 3 is a lot and 3 teenagers is a lot. And we fight with our teenagers and I get the, you're annoying, go away. Like, please help us with our teenagers.

Sell them. EBay, sell them. Um, are they boys or girls?

Um, so the oldest is a boy and then two girls.

Okay, good. All right, uh, so it's an amazing— I'm going to take a wild guess here. The story I'm telling myself is that your three children are— do not resemble one another in personality, disposition, likes and dislikes at all.

That was really good.

I'm impressed. Thank you.

But it couldn't be more different. They're very different.

Yeah. So are my 5. So here we are juggling, trying to meet each kid where their needs are.

Yes.

And you have them right now at a tough age. And I think a big pushback is they want independence. A big pushback is their highly undeveloped brains are telling them that they know everything. And they know nothing. I'm telling you, those are hard years. Those are hard years. I use my kids as fodder when I talk on this stuff. I'm like, let me tell you about time. Can I tell you a funny story?

Oh my God, please.

Okay, if this makes you feel better about your teenager, my kids are all grown except the baby. So my oldest is 45, my youngest is now 23, and the divorce happened when my youngest was like 8. So, uh, my fear was him being alone with his mom, like the last kid left with his mom, you know, and he's going to be a video game or in the basement for the rest of his life. Because we, we are in fear when we parent, when we're fighting back with our kids, there's something we're afraid of. So my picture in my head was always afraid of them being on a park bench with a brown paper bag, you know, drinking it. That would be their lowest level. That was my fear. So the baby is a great human being. Eventually he, he is. I am Type A. I am maybe or maybe not, probably a perfectionist. And he is very laid back. And he told me one time, my daughter, I have a daughter who's just an amazing human. He's like, I see you and her and how hard she works, and I, and you don't look happy, and I don't want that. We are happy. We like to work hard, damn it. But, but, but so I tuck my kids in every single night. I just, you know, go, and I walk in his room and it's a mess, and I look around and I'm like, What is this? And he's like, what? And I'm like, this mess. And he says, I don't see a mess. And I'm like, here, here, here. He's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Well, for me, seeing reality and someone saying it's not there is a trigger, and I know exactly where it came from.

Yeah.

And instead of picking up his pillow and putting it over his sweet little head, forever. I turned around and walked out of the room, which I know is not good conflict management, but I felt like I was saving a life.

Yeah.

And as I'm walking down the steps, I hear a voice say behind me, and you call yourself a conflict manager.

I've gotten that line.

I thought it was brilliant. Yep.

I've gotten that line.

Yeah. And I actually appreciated it because it reminded me how how easy it is to get triggered and that we're all human. And again, it's going back and healing it. Now back to you with your teenagers. They will grow up. Um, so I had a friend say to me at one point, Kim, surely where he is now, uh, which was very stubborn, not teachable, uh, just gonna do it on his own, Uh, surely where he is now is not where you think he'll be when he's 30. And I said, actually, I do. And I realized that that was my problem. Yeah, he's on a growth. I think choosing your battles is good, but I'll give you advice that my nephew gave me for my 31-year-old son. My nephew was a couple years older, and he said, don't give up on us, keep telling us what you're telling us. Because we do hear you, and eventually it will sink in. And it gives me goosebumps to say that, you know. I could cry.

I think I needed to. Yeah, that was good. That was really good advice because it's, you know, everybody listening knows that some days are really hard and we want, you know, and I tell mothers all the time that just us showing up every day is just amazing parenting.

Yeah, I agree. I always somehow inherently knew, maybe because my kids going, wait till you have— I mean, my parents going, wait, do you have kids of your own? Yeah, I kind of knew my kids wouldn't get it until they had kids of their own. So once they started doing that and I got to hear things like, oh my God, this is so hard, or okay, maybe you weren't so bad after all, you know, I'm gloating on the inside. I mean, I'm too good a human to say I told you so, but I'm not too good to think it.

I I love hearing this. This is great for us all to hear.

So hang in there, it is hard.

So when our kids are pushing our buttons and they're telling us that we're annoying, that we need to go away, that we don't know anything, to just be quiet, whatever else they say to us that pushes our buttons, can you give us advice of handling that appropriately instead of strangling them? Yeah, which I, on record, I have not done.

The pillow trick. I mean, sometimes the biggest win is the kid lives another day. Like, that's just all there is to it. I think the one thing about conflict management, it is being able to say, I have a problem and my problem is this, without making you the problem. I mean, clearly these kids do not have the tools to be able to have a conversation that is not throwing away humans. So me as a parent now, uh, my, my kids are still kids and we still have things that we push on, but I have My kids see me as mom and can fail to see us as a human. Mm.

That's true.

And a counselor told me not so long ago, because I have 3 boys, I think your boys forget that you're a human with feelings too. So maybe demonstrate the— how that affects you. Like, maybe be honest. Like, I get you need space, but I want you to know, as your mother and the person who has refrained from murdering you all these years, Like, that does hurt me to hear you say that.

Yeah.

I'm gonna tell you one more really funny, or funny story. I was talking with a woman who has one son, and, um, she said she was raised in a screaming household and she became a screamer. And she said, I realized, like, my kid wasn't listening to me at all, so I said to him, you know what, this yelling thing is ridiculous. You can't hear me. Um, I'm going to when, when I get upset, I'm going to get a handle on myself and I'm going to get quiet and figure it out. She said the very first time that happened, they started, he did something or whatever, and she wanted to yell. Instead, she said, just a minute, give me a minute, I'm going to get myself together. And she said her son was like, oh my gosh, Mom, are you okay? Like, let me hear you. Like, let me hear you. What is it that's bothering you? So I think some of it is making a space for you know, that conversation. And again, Rebecca, in all honesty, it depends on the second, the moment. You need as many tools in your toolbox as you can get because you bring one out and it didn't work this time, but that doesn't mean it won't work next time.

It's true. And I have learned, as many people have hopefully learned, that they don't hear you when you're yelling. They hear the yelling. They don't hear what you're saying.

Right. And that's right.

So I see that anger makes them angry. And I see that my sadness makes them go, oops, maybe that wasn't the best thing to say to her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, in a fair world, I'd like to normalize all those emotions. I mean, angry means they stepped on your toes, but can you say, you know, what I'm hearing is disrespect, or what I'm hearing, I have a high value for respect. I mean, for my kids, I was like, you know, this This person wouldn't be— I wouldn't be alive if I ever talked to my parents how my kids talk to me. However, my counselor again said to me, well, you raised your kids to be strong and independent, to which I said, so this is my fault? But it is the consequence of that, right? But you still help them channel it into a respectful voice. It's like, I, I hear that you're really bothered now, and if it needs to be continued later, I will give you the space now rather than be chased out of the room because that's not cool either. I don't think kids like themselves either when they do that. Then they, then they're feeling guilty and have nowhere to go with that. So I don't know, it's like, how can we take this exact situation— young child with a very small brain— and, um, and have it have a better outcome? Yeah, put some on them. Like, let them figure out some of the stuff. The other thing I wish I'd have done is let them make more mistakes. I was trying so hard to keep them from making big mistakes, and they just need to be able to make mistakes.

Yeah, that is true.

And we—

and a lot of us are fixers, and we want to fix everything and prevent things. So I hear you when you say that. So we need tools. We all need tools. So let's talk about a conflict going well and using some tools along the way.

Sounds perfect.

Help us. Help us, Kim, help us.

How does it go well? You know, mediators' favorite words are, "It depends," right? I didn't know that. I didn't know.

Depends on what the conflict is.

It depends on what the conflict is and where it's gotten started. Yeah. So I would have to say, if I had to answer that question with a must, I would say listen, not talk.

Yeah.

Listen.

Yeah.

And I know when I went to school that everybody was saying, "Be curious." And I had no idea what curious— what does that mean, be curious? It means this: there's a situation in front of you— this is how I describe it now— there's a situation in front of you that you don't agree on. I don't understand why this is important to you. I can tell you all day why it matters to me, right, and why you should just do it my way. Like, I do know that, but let me hear what this is like for you, because I, I promise you that most of the time y'all are going to be on the same page a lot and not even know it. But let me— so the, the curiosity is There's a picture I don't see, we don't see together, that we disagree on. Where are the puzzle pieces that we can clarify that'll help us see the picture better, and then we'll see the solution? That's what getting curious means. What does this mean to you? What are you hearing me say? You know, what are some options here? What is it you need? I mean, Rebecca, think about this. How many conflicts are because we don't name what we need and someone else is busy trying to guess it? That's true.

Sometimes we don't know what we need.

We don't know what we need. That was my next part is, to me, still one of the hardest things, proven being human, is being able to say what I need. But do I expect other people to know? Like, too often we do, right? We do expect someone else to figure out what we need when indeed we can't name it. So I think a whole lot of self-awareness William Ury, who wrote Getting to Yes, said one time, the hardest person in any conflict is the one in the mirror.

That is so true.

I've tried to make it wrong, and I can't. I can't because it's kind of like, yeah, yeah, that is very accurate.

And I think that we just get so drained. I think we get drained and we're not thinking clearly. And I'm wondering how we can effectively recharge because I think people don't do that well.

Yeah, kind of a reset.

Yes.

And even a relational reset. I mean, imagine things keep going sideways. All you're doing is putting out fires, which is what raising a teenager and sometimes marriage can feel like. Hey, can we just reset for a moment and do something that connects us. Can we just reset and have fun? Can we just reset and maybe talk about what life was like when before this, you know, we have to be— it's the law of entropy. Relationships are what we're not actively trying to hold together will fall apart. So how are we actively trying to hold this together? And then there's John Gottman's 80/20 rule, which I say too, in the, in the Sometimes when we're raising kids or when we're married, the only thing we communicate is what's wrong, what you're not doing. And people are like banks, and we're taking withdrawals, we're taking out of people to keep telling them what they're doing wrong. So the 80/20 rule is 8 out of 10 times you're pouring into— thank you, your gratitude, your appreciation, your acknowledgement, which so many people say to me, I shouldn't have to do that. And I say, Who told you that? Because it's a lie.

It is a lie.

Agree. It takes that. If you want the outcome that you want, you have to be pouring in. So maybe that's part of the reason why the person in the mirror matters so much. But you also have to be able to be honest with those withdrawals, which are conflicts. This is a problem for me. Set those up for success. You know, set those conversations up for success. Don't blindside people with Yeah, I know I had, I had a point where I was pretty laid back until I had enough, and then I blew. Like, that was my MO, right? Like, nothing bothered me, nothing bothered me, and then too much, like once or twice a year, it was like rain down from hell, you know? Uh, it's if, but if it, if I had the voice to talk to it each time, it never would have come to that.

Yeah, no, that's true. That is true. There was a, um, comedian who was mimicking a mom, and it was like, do your homework, clean up your room, brush your teeth, you didn't answer my question. And she was being really funny, but it was the truth. It's that we're like barking at them all day, and then we wonder why they're annoyed with us.

That's 100% truth. We're not telling them what they're doing right. I, I don't know, like, I even knew that about myself at the time. Like, I just I don't know. And again, I think it's coming from a fear place. We got to guide them, steer them, help them be wonderful adults, and we fail to tell them what they're doing right. So, um, yeah, it's important because they can hear what they're doing wrong if we're putting in more of what they're doing right.

Yes, that's, that's perfect what you just said. And I think we also have conflicts at work. I hear about people, people talk to me about their work conflicts all the time. So anything look different at home versus at work? How to manage work conflict?

Yeah. So a lot is the same. I work in all of those spaces and I like workplace because it's not as emotionally charged as the family. And so two things go wrong that I'm going to mention. There's probably way more than that, but number one, We have work relationships, but we don't have, again, the equity put into a relationship to get to know one another. So in the absence of knowing, we make up a story. That's part of the problem.

Yes.

Um, number 2 is, um, yeah, number 2 just went out of my head. That's okay.

That's okay.

Yeah, so, so not knowing one another, uh, uh, oh, the other one is, is the forgetting that people have more lives than when they're at work. So people are going through stuff, y'all. Everybody is going through stuff. And the moment that you see them— oh, and by the way, we are more than our worst moment. So your coworker has a bad moment and now you have a problem with them. Well, who amongst us has not had that bad moment, right? And it goes back to the forgiving, the grace, the whatever. I think, again, a generous assumption of I don't know what this person is going through, but I've worked with many a workplace where we sit down initially and I have one. Yo, if you're in a workplace and want to try this, it's very cool. We've worked together for 10 years, but we don't know anything about anybody's life. But I know that somebody has been complaining about somebody who's always on Facebook or always on TikTok or whatever. So we're sitting around and I ask them to pick the person that they know the least. Learn about them and introduce that person to the rest of us, right? So come to find out, the person who's been on social media— as everybody's been, she's on social media all the time— her dad was actually having an amputation. But they made— I'm not kidding you— but they made up a story. So like, get to— and no generous assumptions there, right? It's just like, oh, they're always on their phone, therefore they're on social media, therefore they don't care about their job. Up, you know, when, when in fact she had this medical emergency. Got chills. I mean, more often than not, I will tell you, Rebecca, in— I, I don't know, 95% of conflict, I see two very, very good people. They are just stuck in, it's my way, I see the world my way, it's my way, I see the world my way. And I help them have a conversation where there's all the space between them, where it can be our world, and it works. You just need to know what this person's story is, which goes back to the listening part, you know. Also, there will be haters. I want to say that too. There will be haters. I don't care how nice you are, how well you manage conflict, that's okay. Like, it's okay. Everybody doesn't have to love you. You can still— for me, it's like, who do I want to be in this? I want to be for them. I want them to have a good outcome. No matter what they think of me, I want them to have a good outcome. That's how I mitigate for that. But I had to evolve to that, I just want to say.

Oh yes, we all need to evolve more every day. So to somebody listening who might be going through a bad divorce, I think that, you know, unfortunately the statistics are way too high for that. Um, any advice to the people for their divorce to go maybe a little smoother?

Yeah, 100%. Um, first of all, it's my belief that most people don't want a divorce, they want a happy marriage. So divorce is very often the last, um, the, the, the, the trump card. You know, I, I, I'm miserable, unhappy, I need you to change, therefore I want a divorce, or I want to change. Uh, when in fact I do believe a lot of people can work it out with conflict management, which is not the same as counseling. And counseling works great some, I just want to say that. But look, despite what everybody tells you when you're getting a divorce, the world conspires to be on one side or the other and make the other person the enemy. They are not. They are the person you fell in love with. They're the person who is a parent to your children. They have not all of a sudden turned into somebody else. You all just don't want to be married anymore. So for the sake of the kids, I've seen so much fighting, and we have kids, adult kids, we have kids messed up for life because of how we did divorce for them. Uh, I have a mediator when I did my training say when parents hate each other more than they love their children, children. Oh yeah, which is beautiful framing, because love your kids enough to not demonize the other parent. And be careful of your lawyers, because lawyers are hardwired— I mean, taught to advocate for you. And when they do that, they make the other person the enemy. And so does your mom, and so does your sister, and so does everybody else. Don't let that happen. It will not serve you well in the long time— in the long term. We can all be for something. We can be for a marriage ending. We can be for our political party without being against something else. So be for what you're for— the best outcome for your kids, the best outcome for your ex-spouse, the best outcome for you— be for that without being against something else, and you will ultimately have a far better road to travel.

That is beautiful and wonderful advice. And I asked you so many questions. Do you feel like there's anything that I didn't ask you that we need to cover?

Like, there's a million things.

I don't even know what to say.

We covered a lot. We covered a lot in a very short period.

I know we did. I know. And I can't thank you enough because we all need you. I mean, this is the best topic. Everyone has conflict. Everyone needs to learn how to manage their conflict better. And I just I just can't thank you enough for your time and your expertise today.

The conflict is normal. Let me tell you that. That's my last gift to all of you. You are not broken because you have conflict, and neither is your relationships. Conflict is normal. Even our cells are in conflict. It is normal. We don't have people problems. We have a skill set problem. I mean, think of what happened to you when you were the source of conflict growing up. Yeah. And how does that affect how you manage conflict now? It's just skill set, so you're gonna be fine.

Thank you so much. I think you're wonderful. I love what you're doing. Keep doing it. And this is Rebecca Green. I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving. Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, Leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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