Episode 531: A New Spin on Mourning

No need to whine, it's whiny palooza. Have some wine and join us on the whiny palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene.

Welcome to the whiny palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Winey Plousa Podcast, and I am super excited today because my producer found me an amazing guest. I get to talk to Patricia D. Freudenberg. Did I say it right?

I did my best.

I did my best.

We're gonna call her Patty.

Patty's gonna be so much easier, but you're— you have a beautiful name. She's known as Patty. She's the founder and CEO of Miss You Gram, which I can't wait to hear about. It's a global grief recovery and memorialization platform that helps families honor loved ones with dignity, creativity, and community. She is a certified grief consultant, an end-of-life consultant, an author, a speaker, a host, and she created signature experiences like the Legacy Tree Lighting Ceremony and personalized remembrance packages through the Miss You Gram app, her Legacy Cafe newsletter, and her program A New Spin on Mourning. Patty teaches people how to transform loss into a love— tongue twisters, Patty— into a living legacy without Getting Stuck in Sorrow. She is also the author of Live Your Legacy: A New Spin on Mourning. I didn't realize how hard L's are.

Yeah, right, right. And, uh, you know, it's— who is that person? It sounds like she does a lot of things. Oh wait, that would be me. Yeah, I know, people are like, what do you do? What, when, where, why? I don't know if you're one of those ladies, but you know, uh, I— and I think ladies wear a lot of hats. So yeah, I do all that, but it's all kind of under the same, you know, roof, uh, if you will, you know. But I was just sharing with you before we got on that now we have a new show added to that list, which is, uh, Live Your Legacy. Uh, so the new spin on Mourning is about grief recovery specifically, uh, and Live Your Legacy is when you are, you know, on the other side, you're in recovery, and now you want to share your, your story. And it's not always about loss, uh, but a lot of times it is because grief is a catalyst, um, to just make transformation. So thank you for letting me add that.

Oh, I love that you just said that. That is such a way, just an amazing way to look at grief. I love that you're doing such beautiful things with grief. But like, tell us what inspired you to create Miss You Gram. You're helping people with loss. Tell us the story.

So it's— thank you for asking that question because a lot of people don't ask that question. And I think it's a really important question. First of all, a lot of people assume I must have had a tragic loss, and I've had a lot of losses. And I think, you know, if you're in your 50s, you know, we could all say we've had a lot of losses because that's part of life, right? But how did I start with Miss You Gram? It does have a story, and I'll keep it as brief as possible for sake of time, but I want you to get the whole feel for it. So what most people don't know about me is that unless you're in my, you know, friends and family circle from, from 100 years ago, because I'm 100 years old, is that I've been a beautician for 35 years, brick and mortar, still standing, even though I'm not an owner anymore. I, I retired fully in 2024 because I had to give this undivided attention. This was a side hustle that it burst out of the beauty parlor. And the story goes like this. When people sat in my chair— and that's the, that's the only life and passion I had was making people look beautiful. But I'm Chatty Patty at the end of the day. And Chatty Patty, her clients would sit in the chair and we got to have a nice relationship because— do you— may I stop for a minute and ask you, do you have a really good relationship with your hairdresser?

Of course. Everybody, everybody does. Yes.

Thank you. Okay, so now you understand, and I think most people do. Not everybody, but most people do. With that being said, I got to know my clients intimately to a level, right? And at some point, pretty much every single one of them was going to a funeral, either for somebody deeply close to them or somebody they cared about. And while I was making them look beautiful on the outside, I gave them the grace and space just to get it off their chest. And I realized the necessity, the need, the gap that needed to be filled to talk about it when it never feels like it's the right time to. And that was the birth of Mr. Graham. I started to— I talked about it for 7 years before my daughter called me out. She said, Mom, why don't you do an app? And the app is the first thing I ever did with anything that I'm doing now. I wouldn't have been an author. I wouldn't have been a speaker. I wouldn't have been a consultant for grief. I became certified I wouldn't have done any of that if it wasn't for the app. So the app for me is the foundation of everything else I do. This, that, everything else. The app, and it is a free public service, and it is a registered trademark operation system. So, you know, yeah, there could be copycats and do what I do on the app. But it's, it's, you know, it's trademarked for the operation, which is a an application on the Google Play Store and the, you know, the Apple Play Store, and you could go there and share memorial of your loved one. And yes, you can do that on Facebook and Instagram. What's the difference? It's exclusive, so you don't— you're not as bashful. And even if you are, you could keep it private, and you could do it just because on the other platforms it seems to be people only do it if It was a— it was just a loss, an anniversary, or a birthday, but they're thinking about them all the time, and this is a place just to go and refuge, but it birthed everything else, and that's where the story comes from. So back to you. Wow.

So can you give us an example? Okay, so like you go on Facebook, let's say. Yes, I'm old and I use Facebook. I gotta get better at Instagram. But you go on Facebook and you post, you know, I just lost so-and-so, and you say what you're gonna say. And then how do you— you then can continue it on your app and use your app to— like, what would I be— can you give us an example?

So it's— it right now, um, again, I'm a solopreneur, and, you know, I didn't partner with anybody, and I didn't go pitch to investors. And I contemplated it, and I went to a lot of events, and at the end of the day, I'm like, you know what, slow and steady. When it's the right time, I'll know it, right? Um, so, uh, because of that you know, you are more limited on the expansion and growth of the app. So if you go on the app now, it's quite simple. There's not a lot of bells and whistles. And again, I have big aspirations to make this like give you everything and the kitchen sink, right? Yeah. And it is a free public service. So you go on there and there's a template if you don't have a picture or, you know, if you, if you have a picture, you could still use a colored background and then you just post a little memorial note, you know, I miss you, Mom. You know, it could be as simple as that. And again, people could comment on it and the conversation could start there. Or, you know, you could just keep it private because you just want to get it off your chest. And the reason that there's been research on that, like even Stanford— I love to use Stanford University. I just have my own personal, like, I just love Stanford University research. I'm not a medical doctor, you know, but I like to research and share the information. And there's been studies done how writing— and I'm sure you've heard this with all your interviewees, and maybe you know on your own accord— how writing is a form of healing, you know. And in fact, even Abraham Lincoln used to write hot letters, and even if nobody saw them, he would write them and sometimes even crinkle, crinkle them up and then just, you know, trash them. But it's that transformation of like conversion, right? Conversion from keeping it stored inside inside and, and getting it out. Um, so this was another, um, thing that I was thinking of when I was building this platform. It's a place where people could just like know, like they could get it off their chest and, and honoring their loved one, you know, because the slogan is everybody wants to be remembered. And some people may say, I don't want to be remembered. All right, maybe you're extra special, but I believe everybody wants to be remembered. So that's, that's the notion behind all this.

I love it. It's beautiful. Everything you're doing is just so beautiful. I just, I don't really know. I don't really know a lot about it. So you're transforming loss into a living legacy. Okay. Can you tell us what a living legacy is? Because I'm honestly ignorant. I don't even know.

Most people don't, and most people kind of like Huh? What do you do? You know, and, you know, I empower grieving individuals, right, to transform their pain of loss into a living legacy so they're not stuck in sorrow. And that's the part, so they're not stuck in sorrow. And when somebody's going through loss, right, there is this— and I'm not saying everybody, and I'm not for everybody, and that's Let me just do a little sidebar here. My, my consulting, coaching, whatever you want to call it, guide, guidance is not for everybody. And that's perfectly okay because, you know, you have to meet people where they are. So if you're not ready for me, but I bring death to life. How? By honoring what was but embracing what is becoming. So people go— now I'm going back to your— to answer your question is that in grief, and I've been through this myself, is that there's this guilt, this guilt, like, to laugh. Okay. As time goes by, the guilt wears, right? But especially on the early onset, you know, it's a real challenge to live again. And I could promise you, I listen, this is still subjective, but I find it hard to believe that your loved one would want to see you stuck. They know you love them, and of course you're gonna go— I'm saying trust the process. I'm not saying not to feel angry. I'm not saying— I mean, they each have their benefactors, and I really go deep into this, um, because I want people to be educated. But also remember, um, don't stay there because then it's degeneration, and you're still living, and you have the right. Give yourself permission. Don't feel guilty. So I give you that, that I'm the coach that gives you that push. You you know, like to keep on living. I'm not saying do it a day after your loved one dies, you know, but, but get out of bed, but get out of bed. I'll be that person though. And that's why I emphasize on a living legacy. Live your legacy. You could still carry and honor them throughout you living your legacy, but you are faced with mortality when you're dealing with grief. And when you're faced with mortality, you come to realize, wait a minute, We're all here for a limited time offer. Let's not waste it because who is promised tomorrow? Yes, probably will be here. Yes, probably will be here. But truly, nobody knows.

Oh, all of that is so true. And I, and I love what you said because our loved ones don't want us— it's totally natural to be sad. It's totally natural to cry and all of that. But they don't want us to live there permanently. They want us to move forward 100%, which isn't easy. So you're helping people with that. And one of the ways you're helping people is this beautiful— your legacy tree lighting ceremony. It sounds amazing. And I know we need rituals. I know rituals are so helpful. Tell us, tell us what that is.

Yeah, I just— for so, you know, I usually had my, my tree up. They come in different sizes, and, and again, it's like a customized package, right? Uh, and this The tree could be either a collective tree. So let's say 9/11, for instance, and you're somebody who lost somebody at 9/11, or cancer, um, you know, uh, cancer, and it's a cancer event, you know, or it could be for one specific person. So, you know, it is a customized memorial service, but it's so beautiful. Uh, you know, I'm a little partial because, you know, I created it, but it's a, it's a tree and it lights up and it comes in different sizes, right? Um, from, from 6-foot to 4-foot to 2-foot, and depending on space decent amount of people. And then I have these little butterfly clips. I can't believe I wasn't prepared because I didn't even know you knew about this. I didn't even know you knew about this because it's, it's like kind of like, you know, in the back of the closet.

Adrian told me.

It's all Adrian. Yeah, it's funny. I'm glad I— maybe I should talk about it a little bit more because, you know, I, I really kind of have it hidden. It's like a little hidden secret, but I really love it because the couple times that I did it, I only did it a few times, um, but The sentiments were so felt like everybody just was in union with honoring this loved one. And, and so I play a song that I created, right, while, while we do the tree lighting. And after we talk about the person like a eulogy, we play the song and everybody comes up and there's butterflies, or they get one with their little, with their little giveaway bag. They grab the butterfly and they place it on the tree. And when the ceremony is done, now the tree is lit with all the butterflies on that, and that's all the lives that that person touched. You know, and it's a, it's a physical and visual, you know, and then, you know, you got the song in the background and, you know, everybody's there collectively and it's like, you know, it, it kind of, it makes you honor life and it also makes you take your life a little bit more serious because I think sometimes we take our own lives for granted. Um, and again, situations like this, it's bittersweet, right? We feel it. But then it also brings us back to the now and, and just living, living, um, you know, and then that's the part celebration of life. That's how I look at things.

It's beautiful. It's absolutely a beautiful idea. I love it so much. There's a lot of moms listening, parents. I shouldn't just say moms. We have mostly moms listening and moms are grieving and they need to talk to their kids about grieving. Do you have any suggestions on healthy ways for them to talk to their kids?

Well, it's funny you say that because I do have another book. So this book is a guidebook. It's like a magazine. If you see, it's the font's big. It's a starting point. And again, you come to Patty or you get this book when you're ready to recover. And in the first page or the first chapter, I say, please, like, you might need medical help. You might need somebody to speak like this and talk slow, you know, because like some people are not ready for me, you know, and that's perfectly fine and absolutely normal. Then when it comes to kids, when it comes to kids, I'm writing, I'm writing, actually, there's 3 books that are what I started. It's Grief Etiquette, right? Grief Etiquette is one of them. But there's another one for children. And it's, and it's called What Happened. Because I learned even in my certification, but also through research, and I'm like, you know what, I got to do something about this. What happened? We want to protect our kids, so we don't want to talk about things that might make them uncomfortable. And if somebody's sick and we know they're sick, or they live in another country or another state, or it's an uncle or aunt you don't see a lot, we, we don't want to tell them. And I know that sounds like Crazy. But this happens more— this, this is more common than not common. It's more common not to tell the kids about it, and then you tell them if you have to tell them about it. But we, we, for some reason— and this also applies to, um, you know, even like if a household is having a divorce, we're not going to tell the kids, but eventually they're gonna find out. And what I learned through even this book, um, that I was on, an anthology book, um, that I was part of, Children Are Not Weapons, this is where I got that aha moment. And here was real doctors in psychiatry, and specifically with adolescents, and it freaks them up. I was almost cursed. I almost cursed. I almost cursed. It freaks them up. It freaks them up because that, that traumatic of like—

they—

kids have a sixth sense. They know something's happening. People are acting weird. They're whispering. I'm going to my aunt's house for— why am I going to my aunt's house for her to take care of me? Um, and of course I'm talking about even more of the younger, but even, even teenagers, right? Um, I experienced this. So talk about it, talk about it. There's— it's like going to the emergency room, okay, Rebecca? It's never going to be the right time. Talk about it. And usually, you know, for me, there's two places that are the best place to talk about it. Forget about what time it is, is the dinner table, the kitchen table, or the car.

Yeah.

Okay. Because you have undivided attention there. That's where you talk about it in the, in the kitchen, at a table, or, you know, in the car. And, you know, it's just, you know, because, you know, it sounds beautiful to say, okay, I'm going to go to the bedroom like a good movie and sit by their bedside and talk about it. But it's not realistic. Yeah, you can do that. And that's beautiful, but it's not realistic. Um, so yeah, that— as you could tell, I'm a little passionate about that. Tell the kids.

Well, I think that what you said is so important because people try to hide things from kids, but kids pick up on things, and we don't realize that. Well, I realize my kids hear everything. My husband and I will be having a private conversation that we think we're being so quiet and they heard us. They're listening and they feel it. They feel whatever's going on. So it makes them feel calmer and more at peace to know what's going on than to feel the anxiety of going, there's tension, there's something, but I don't know what's going on. So you're so 100% right.

Even what's going on with your— even if they know such and such passed away But what's going on with Mommy? Mommy is weird and different, and she's trying to put on this good face. And I get it, we all do it. But be, be raw and real. I'm not— I can't—

I'm not a good actress. My husband has asked me for many years to become a better actress. My emotions are all over my face. My kids have seen every emotion, but that's healthy.

Yeah, but that's healthy, and I get it. There's a time and a place. I get all that, you know. But at the end of the day, you know, be raw and real with your kids. You know, they don't need to be your therapist. I'm not saying that. No, but I'm saying like, you know what, Mommy's a little off, so it's not you if I look mad. It's not, you know, uh, you know, stuff like that. You know, let them know. Give them a sense of, of like, you know, they're not responsible. Because I think sometimes kids might know Mommy's depressed And, and they feel responsible because they're— they don't know what to do. Everybody, I think, by you— I think we're wired up as like, we want to help, right? But if there's no communication, then you're kind of left kind of like, what, what do I do? So if Mommy says it's okay, give, you know, and you give them that exit, you know, then at least, you know, they could just still love you but not feel that burden of like, how can I fix her?

Yes, yes. Well, and people might not realize that there's grief masks, okay? So it could show up as anger, anxiety, so many things. Can you talk about the grief masks and how families can recognize it?

Well, I'm glad you said that because let's use denial. There's a few of them. Let's use denial, right? Yep. And this, right, denial But do you know denial is actually a benefactor? It's, it's not the use, it's the abuse. So it's, it's denial actually protects our heart from having a heart attack, you know. Um, you know, there, that's just an example, you know. Denial, you— so don't push your loved one because they're not fully embracing the loss. Let them be, but keep an eye that, you know, then when, when, uh, you know, and how much time Again, this is according to my certification. You know, a month, a month is really like, like that, that sweet spot, even like to start clean. Like some people don't want to clean. And some people like, go clean the room, they're in denial, let them be like, the, the recommendation is a month before you start cleaning out. Now, of course, if it's a hospice, nursing home that they passed in, you got to clean it out before a month, right? There are special circumstances, but Generally, a month is like, you know, if something's carrying on more than a month, and listen, grief never goes away. Let's be real. Grief never goes away. And the first year is very delicate. And I've written about this in my articles. The first year is very delicate because you got the first birthday, you got the first anniversary, you got the first this, the first that, and the first of the other. And you're learning. You're also grieving your own life. And again, it gets complicated. And I'm not a medical doctor. This is just from research and either experience or testimony, which is my favorite of all. And, you know, it's— you're grieving your own routine. I used to call my mother every morning. I'm grieving that routine. Besides missing her, I'm also selfishly grieving my routine. So, you know, you've got to, you know, any, any routine, any habit, needs at least, what, the 21 days? I think it's even more, right? So, so yeah, that's, that's what I say. Did I even answer the question? Because I go on a tangent. You, you—

well, you were talking about denial, which, you know, isn't— you had so many good points about it. But what's interesting for me, you know, you're saying give yourself a month, and I feel like when something happens I go into like cleaning overdrive. It's like my coping mechanism.

That's good. I, uh, but they know when the house is clean, I'm mad. I, I, I might— that's like when I, when I get in my feelings, I, I clean too. And if the house is a mess and dirty, well then I must be really happy.

Well, yeah, I know what I'm talking about. Like if my loved one was to pass away like, you know, thankfully I hope I have like a long time with my parents, but like my grandma, we went into overdrive cleaning out her condo, and it, it was, it was therapeutic to me to like pour myself into the cleaning out, which I mean sometimes you have to do it and sometimes you don't have a month, but I didn't even know that you should give yourself time before you do that.

But you know, I'm glad you said that too, though. I'm glad. I love everything you're saying, um, too, because we're really hitting great points. So I am— I sound like a repeat. Glad, glad, glad. I am glad because let's, let's say with, with everything that I said about give yourself a month, with everything I said, I— it's— this is— I, I start with this, I end with this, I even have it in my book. You be you, boo. Yeah, it's so right. Like, there is even, even in the same, even in the same, like, environment of, like, a loss, right? Uh, siblings losing a parent, the siblings are gonna totally mourn totally differently. Maybe they'll mourn the same, but, like, it's like, you gotta honor it either. And I, and this is part of my consulting, it either feels good or it doesn't. And I can't I— you could only communicate that. Like, I can't feel in first person, you know. I can't feel what you feel. I don't know if you're hot. I don't know if you're cold. You could give me telltale signs and I'm going to come up with conclusions, but at the end of the day, when people ask me, should I do this, should I do that, what feels right to you? And sometimes we don't know until we try, right?

Yeah, that's excellent advice. It's really good advice because everyone is so different. So I had this conversation with my friend the other day, so I'm really curious about what you're going to say. Okay, so end-of-life consulting. What is the conversation families avoid that you wish that we had sooner?

Oh gosh, the conversations that family avoid. I mean, you can answer that. It comes down to, I mean, it's the money, the, the what's left behind. Because like, there, there's, there's a lot. There's— I've heard so much discord. I've heard so— I mean, even when I have, I have a Clubhouse room that people come on as a grievance, you know, chat room. People, some people come to help because they, they support me and they want to help others. And other people come on And I would be rich if I told you how many times I heard the stories. I don't talk to my brother anymore. I don't talk to my aunt anymore. I was the executor, and I, you know, they weren't living a good life, so they didn't get it, or they were mad that they sold the house, or they were mad they gave away that those special pots and pans. Those were, you know, my great-great-grandmother's. It could be even frivolous things. It doesn't always have to be a large estate. It could even be like, you know, Oh, these pair of glasses was that— those were my favorite and she left them for me. Why she take them? You know? And I'm like, wow, like, that's— that really is disappointing, you know? And me and my sister made a pinky promise, like, we're not going to do that because I'm around it so much and she works for a law firm. So she sees it also on the— on the legal side. And we made a pinky promise. We're like, in our family, that's all we have is me and my sister. I don't have other— other, you know, I mean, I have in-laws, but in my in my side of the family, we made a pinky promise, like, listen, like, that's just all a byproduct, you know. And, you know, we're like, and even I recently had a loss, and we're actually cleaning up my grandpa's house. And my grandma passed away first, all her stuff is there. And we already said, listen, we'll do shotgun. And if somebody really likes what somebody shotgunned, you know, we'll talk about it. And we're like, you know, and my sister's like, you know, whatever you want. And I said, I suppose, whatever you want, you could have. And I'm like, And I said the same thing. I'm like, well, whatever you want, you could have. Like, you know, so it's like, it's stuff at the end of the day. Even my father-in-law that passed away, thank goodness, um, it went smoothly. Uh, thank goodness. But again, this is like a topic that, you know, can be really, really, um, a hot topic, not in a good way.

Well, yeah. And, and like you said, siblings handle it so differently. So Yeah, talk about it. I like that.

I'm definitely avoiding the conversation, especially, especially when a loved one doesn't plan and doesn't leave instructions. And I, and I emphasize that a lot. It's really, really important to write it down at least somewhere because you don't want to cause havoc after you pass away. You don't want your children to be fighting because you didn't give them instructions on what you think should go where, because then, you know, you know, rightfully people should honor what the loved one wanted, even in burial. Oh, she— I don't know if she wanted to be cremated, she never talked about it. I don't know if she wants, uh, you know, to be buried. These are things that, like, you know, cause major issues.

Yeah. Yes, you are right on everything you're saying. Okay, let's talk about grief in the workplace. You're at work, you're struggling, you don't feel emotionally safe at work, you're grieving. How can people handle that?

You know, I think again, communication. However, when you are actually in the trenches of grief and work never gives you enough time, and, and where's the sweet spot, right? Because it's like like, you know, you get maternity leave, but like when it's grief, like you lose 3 members, you're out for the year, you know, like it's not realistic. So you do have to go back to life and it actually is going to keep you busy and it's going to actually help you in the long run. But in the trenches of it, or you're having a trigger moment, or you're just not there yet, communication is key. But it's hard to talk because when you're feeling that way, you know, you could just belt out crying, you know, you could just, you know, your voice will start to crack, you know, like it's hard to talk So my recommendation is, um, and where did I get this, um, you know, notion from? Because I do so much reading, but it was from a resource that I thought, you know what, I'm going to continue this message. So I didn't come up with this, but I thought it was really, really smart is to do a mass email, um, you know, to let everybody know where you're at. You don't have to give them details. You don't have to say I'm depressed. You could just say, you know, I might seem off, or I'm a little bit more focused on my work due to a loss in the family. You know, any— you know, I'll get back to you, you know, when I'm more available. You know, whatever words come, you know, I didn't put an email together right now, but the idea is to send a mass email. And also, depending on the workplace, you know, have a heart-to-heart, even if you cry privately behind closed doors with your chain of command. You know, you don't— you know, if you have a manager, you don't have to go to the manager's manager. Tell the manager, whatever the chain of command is, you just need to go one up. And then, you know, if they're doing the right thing, um, they'll, they'll, they'll also honor, you know, that, you know. And then people with an email— and again, this is not— I didn't invent this, but this was really clever, so I pass it on. Is that that's another place where now you're now on the recipient of, of— I don't know, recipient's the right word, but you're the, you're the colleague, right? Colleagues also feel awkward. Oh my gosh, she just lost her mother. I don't know what to say to her. Well, now the person just gave that opportunity by sending that email to have like a thread and a response, you know, so they could say sending our deepest condolences, and then we're done, you know. And then, you know, there's no awkwardness because I didn't know what to say and I don't want to make her cry at work. So it's, it's, it's— there's a place there, you know. So I thought it was great, great advice, and I share it forward.

Yeah, I think that's perfect advice. And I want to piggyback on what you said because as a supporter of somebody grieving, we don't know what to say. 'Can you tell us what to say and what not to say?

Any advice?' Do not say, 'How are you?' I know. Yes, I agree. And listen, guilty. I mean, it's— we're like, we're wired up by default, right? It's a— it's just a— I, I bet I have become very good at catching myself. I still do it every now and then. I do too. Yeah, I've gotten really good. So when you go to the— when you catch yourself saying how, to stop. How did you sleep last night? Yeah, because if you, if you say how did you sleep last night, okay, now you got room for conversation. And now they're either going to be vulnerable, you're gonna, you're gonna know by their response, you know, um, if they're, if they're ready to talk, if they're not ready to talk, you know, they're gonna either get into their, their, their full night. I woke up 3 times. I can't get this out of my mind. Or they're gonna say, well, I, I didn't sleep that well. Well, you know what? Thank God I slept well, you know. And then you'll know by that because the body is a telltale sign, right? So sleep. And, and again, I've learned this, um, through, through, you know, really great people who wrote this book. Um, let me say this. I don't want to, I don't want to mess up her name, but she Just, just so wonderful. Yes. Um, Elise Price Tobler. She— oh my gosh, she's from Australia. Elise Price Tobler, um, a psychiatrist, um, amazing doctor. Um, but she taught me this. I wasn't— this wasn't even taught in my certifications. She taught me this, and I was like, wow, that is really phenomenal. Another one is, um, are you, are you eating? Did you eat anything? Did you know— are you eating, hydrating? Again, You're showing care and compassion, and you know, that's gonna bring room for— and it's also like even playing ground, you know. Um, you're not talking about the elephant in the room, you know, but at the same time, you're gonna give way to see if they're gonna continue the conversation. Oh, I couldn't eat nothing. My stomach is just upside down, you know, with nerves, you know. Or, you know what, I'm, I'm, I'm eating because it's comfort, you know. And it— but it will bring conversation. Never ever say, I know how you feel. Never, never say, I know how you feel, because you don't. Everybody's so uniquely made. You do not know how you feel. Okay, I lost a mother, she lost a mother, um, that's a similar situation. Okay, um, I have an understanding of what it's like to lose a mother. I have an understanding, not I know how. And it's little tiny change of words, but it's the delivery of how our psyche receives that information. Again, this is from education, but not because I'm a medical doctor. I'm just passing on information that I learned either through doctors or research. But yes, saying I have an understanding of what it's like, but don't make it about you. If you could just avoid the whole you, forget you exist. It's about them. It's about them. You know how many people don't want to go to funerals because I don't want to go to a funeral because I just don't like them. Well, you know what? You're really doing a dishonor to your friend because people just want bodies. They— and, and this I learned from Dr. David Kessler, who worked with Susan Kubler-Ross, who wrote Death and Dying, right? And then David Kessler, who's also been like on Oprah and everything, wrote Finding Meaning. And people, even we could, we could say we don't need to be validated. It's a big fat lie. People want to be heard and seen. And just showing up in body, you don't have to say anything. All you have to say is, I'm here for you. If you need anything, just reach out. I'm gonna check on you. Because also people feel funny, you know, reaching out. So let them know, I'm here for you. You can reach out, but I'm also going to check on you. So, you know, and if you don't answer, that's okay. Give them an exit as well. If you don't answer, it's okay. But I'm going to check on you. I'm here for you. You don't have to say nothing. You know, a smile, a hug, a touch is better than a thousand words.

Oh, you're full of so much good advice. I'm going to tell you that when, when people start talking, when, when I am struggling, with a loss and people start talking about themselves and their own loss, it really upsets me. I'm also going to tell you, hang in there feels very dismissive. I don't like that at all. And I'm also going to tell you that the mundane things that people talk about, sometimes I want the distraction, and sometimes I'm like, I don't want to talk about all this stuff. This is just nonsense. I have deeper things I'm dealing with. So it's— grief is interesting.

Another one that was in, uh, because when I did my grief, um, etiquette, I did a whole month on grief etiquette, and that's the, the information I'm putting into the book. And it was, and it was upon popular demand. People kept asking me, can you, can you write? And there might be one out there, but this is the compiling that I people were hell-bent. And not everybody will get hell-bent on this, but so much more people did that didn't. They're in a better place. They're in a better place. I don't want to believe that. Even if you believe that, you don't want to hear it from somebody. Let me, let me just feel what I feel right now.

I will never say that. I will never— it's— I have learned all the things not to say.

Yes. You know what is healthy? And I learned in my certification, um, talking about the elephant room diet— and this is the question that most people will never ask, but it's actually very healthy, even if it's uncomfortable. It's very healthy for them. Okay, is what do you think happens after death? Because nobody knows. But let them— let their imagination heal them. You know, and, and, and, and their imagination might not think of nice things, but encourage them. You could encourage them to hope that, you know, there, there, there, there may be an afterlife that, you know, carries our character and, you know, all that stuff, you know. Give them hope, but let them use their own imagination, you know, as much as possible. But talk about it. In fact, Even grief consultants that are— well, they're called— my certificate says death doula too, but, uh, because I could work with hospice patients and go to their bedside. That's not my area of focus. My area of focus is recovery. Um, but this is also— again, you don't— you think like, why would you want to tell somebody, ask them about the afterlife when they're so close to dying? Uh, you don't think they know that? You know, and, and that gives anxiety than not knowing. So, so give them, give them a grace and space to, to like build on it and have a canvas, because it's the mystery of life. It's the mystery of life. Nobody's exempt. So give them a canvas to be able to rejoice in something that feels good. Find something that feels good. And that's what I share in my grievance chat rooms and my— when I do speaking, like, but when we'll never know 100%, right? Until we go there, until, until whatever happens in the afterlife. But fact is this, because I love quantum mechanics, fact is this: the spirit that pumps our blood, that makes our heart go, you know, poom poom poom poom, that spirit continues. Now, is it our character? Is it our personality? Does it, does it still— I don't know. But you know what, I choose thoughts that feel good to me, and that's what I'm going to cherish. But But the, the, but the, but the spirit— let's, let's stick with the spirit here. That, that energy that's bottled up in our bodies right now, okay, because it is bottled up in our bodies right now, that spirit being, okay, is not able to be ever, ever, ever, ever, never, ever, ever, ever, ever destroyed. It can only transform. That's science. That's not Patty's opinion. That's not religion. That's Fact. Okay, so yeah, I know I get really like, you know, weird about it. I love it. I love it.

Everything you're saying is so helpful. I want to talk about your book. We got to talk about your book. Okay. Live Your Legacy: A New Spin on Mourning. Okay. What, what, tell us, like, what does a new spin on mourning mean?

It's like thinking outside the box, right? It's thinking outside the box and And you know, most people like will think, oh, it's a grief book. You know, I'm not gonna talk about the stages here. This is just the— I want to be, um, I want you to have a conversation with yourself, um, to just, you know, think of yourself. I want it to be a selfish walk. You, you know, you're mourning, you know, you miss them, you can't do anything about it, but you wanna recover. So I'm going to just give you like, you know, the chapter names: Mind Over Matter, Pausing in the Now, Unfolding Your Grief, Mourning for Mourning. In that chapter, I love Mourning for Mourning. Besides, it's a play on words because like, you know, get it over with, you know, like, you know, you just lost. I know it's so harsh, right? I am Patty from New York. I love that. Yeah, but like what I mean by that in that chapter, when you read it, it's like, do a little ritual in the morning. You know, get your— I'm not saying you're not going to have triggers during the day. I'm not saying you're not going to miss them all day, every day. But like, get it over with.

Don't—

you know, you wake up, especially in the early onset, you know, those first few weeks, those first few months, you know, you wake up and it's like, oh, the nightmare. And you try to like, okay, I'm just going to go on my day. But it's always there. It's always in the back. Get it out of the way. Light a candle, talk to them. I teach new relationships with your loved one if it feels right to you. Not everybody's keen on it. Some religions don't even want to even hear about that. But this is, again, this is my style, and it's not for everybody, right? It's not for everybody. But I teach have a new relationship with your loved one in the afterlife. Maybe it's not, maybe it's not them, but it's the, uh, like you know, their energy is coming through with a, with a, with a bell, you know, with a penny, with a, you know, whatever, you know, a song just happens to come on, you know. But, um, you know, have a new relationship and, and, and do it in the morning, you know. Tell them you love them in the morning. Thank them for everything. Why do you have— you could choose, you could choose to think of that, you know, fateful day that they're gone and you didn't, and you don't get to talk to them anymore. Or you could think of all the treasures of moments that you've had and thank them for them. Thank you, Mom, for teaching me that recipe. Thank you for giving me a sweet 16. Thank you, Grandma, for, you know, always holding my hand. You know, just do it in the morning because your morning sets the momentum. So, you know, if you could find a place to give them, you know, love and, and, you know, it is bittersweet. But yeah, morning for morning and then time and state. You know, your state of mind. Again, it's like, where is your mind going? Because like, if I close my eyes and I think of Paris, I'm in Paris, you know. So where are you? You know, so be mindful of time and state because your memories are timeless. You could go back, right? I'm sure you could go back to 8 years old like now, right? Like, yeah, I'm on my bicycle. Yep, I'm riding around there, you know. But these, these little habits, um, shift gears, shift gears and raise the vibration. And it's— you're gonna start to feel better because now your brain is gonna start producing chemicals that are feel-good chemicals, and then you're gonna respond to that. So these little tricks, that's why I call it a guidebook. It's not a novel. It's not gonna tell you about grief. It's just gonna help you change your mind about living your life after your loved one passed. A break— uh, breakthrough breakdowns. Um, that's kind of like let things go, you know. People want to hold on to all these things. Let it go. Nothing's forever. I mean, that's just the, the truth, uh, except spirit. Spirit's forever. Um, slow yet steadily. This is just a reminder. It's the— one of the final chapters. Slow and steady. Take it easy. You be you. Do it at your own pace. There's Grief is not linear. You could be in denial one day, feeling great the other day, and come back to anger. It's, it's, you know, it's the way it is. Triggers happen all the time. Reflect and repeat. And what I mean by that is go through the chapters again. Again, it's 50 pages, and again, big font. This is verbatim. You could read it in half an hour, 20 minutes if you're a speed reader. But it's not about that. It's about you know, reading it. And then, like, and then I have the, um, the journal pages in the back. So, you know, you could just write into it. And I left it with no, with no lines intentionally, because some people like to doodle, you know. Some people like to doodle, and that also is healing, you know. And I'll read you the quote that I have in here, um, because I think it's important. Then I'll shut up. Um, here we go. It says, you are miraculously made, and the only person who can speak in first person feel in first person, and remember in first person. So own it proudly.

Beautiful. So I'm sure that there's somebody listening who's really struggling today with their grief. Can you give them a step they can take today to move a little bit in a better direction? Because the, the heavy grief, although it's natural I know that people are looking for help.

Well, this is what I say to that. When somebody's heavy in grief, that's the price you pay for love. And I, I heard that quote, um, uh, the first time I heard it was, uh, Queen Elizabeth, but it's— I don't even know if she's the one that came up with it, but wow, that says it all. And I add this to it. It's a physical measurement. Now, this is Patty, um, and I came up with this. I never heard this one before, but it's a physical measurement of how deep your love is. So it should be an anchor. Um, I'm not saying that the pain is something fun, but sometimes, you know, um, it's good to feel because You know, we, we need contrast. Um, that's the world we live in, right? That's the world we live in. So how do you know good if you don't know bad? Um, so the feeling feels maybe bad, but then when you could change perspective, change your lens, same cup of water, half full or half empty, and say, wait a minute, those feeling bad feelings, wait a minute, that's actually not feeling bad, it's actually how deep my love is. That's how deep. And I could physically feel it because love is intangible, but now I could actually feel it. And, um, and yeah, that's what I would say. Wow.

I mean, I knew you were going to be fun. I knew you were going to have so many good things to say. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you want to leave with them before I let you go?

What? You know what? I think you covered it all. You said— you asked really, really great questions. You're a great interviewer. Oh, thank you. Seriously, you talked about some things that I didn't think would come up. And yeah, thank you so much for that. I really, really appreciate that very, very much. Uh, yeah, I think you said it all. I think we talked about it all.

We talked— I kept you much longer than I said I was gonna keep you, but you are just such a wealth of knowledge on this topic. And I want to tell you, I love, love the work that you're doing. It's such important work, and I appreciate that you're doing this.

Wait, could I shout out this beautiful necklace?

Yes.

Okay, so this is Bashful and Dopey and Doc and Grumpy and— wait, Sleepy and Snoozy and Sneezy. And I got this beautiful, beautiful heirloom. And you see, and it really ties into this, this topic. And then we'll wrap it up. I know we're on overtime, but this, this came from an heirloom. Our, our mutual friend Adrienne Barker, right, uh, she passed this on down to me, and she said that she knew in her heart her, her parents, um, you know, she has a relationship with her parents in the afterlife, and she knew in her, in her knower, in her knower, in her first-person knower, that, you know, I was the right person to pass it down to because we also share a love for Snow White and Disney, and, and we were just in a moment conversation, and she just took it off. She was wearing— she took it off and gave it to me. And, and, uh, you know, I just feel like I just want to give a shout out to, um, you know, her parents. I read up about them. They're just amazing humans that, you know, are now in the afterlife doing their magic. And her— their legacy is Adrienne, and she's an awesome person, and she led me to you. So thank you for having me on your show.

Well, and I want to tell Adrienne, who is my wonderful, amazing producer, who is going to listen to all of this, that one of the first things that I said to Patty was how much I love her necklace. So if you're even knowing—

without you even knowing, I didn't know, I didn't know it was Adrienne's.

So I love that she passed it on to you. It's beautiful and special and meaningful. And if you're listening, you can't see it, but if you go on Facebook or YouTube, you can peek and see this beautiful necklace. So thank you, Adrian, for finding Patty, and thank you, Patty, for spending so much time with me today.

Thank you. Love you so much. Thank you.

This is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard Please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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