Episode 537: No Guilt Mom on Burnout

No need to whine, it's whiny palooza!

Have some wine and join us on the whiny palooza podcast with Rebecca Greene.

Welcome to the whiny palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Greene. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Winey Palooza podcast, and I am very excited today because I get to talk to talk to the fabulous Joanne Cron. Joanne, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and to have this conversation.

Me too. I have been reading all about Joanne and you're all gonna love her. So let me tell you why. She is the founder and CEO of No Guilt Mom. Sign me up. She's a parenting educator, certified life coach, podcast host, speaker and author of The Best Mom Is a Happy Mom. That is true. With a master's in education and a background as a national board certified teacher, JoAnn helps overwhelmed moms raise capable, confident kids while also reclaiming their own joy, identity, and peace of mind. Through her podcast, courses, and community, she gives practical, honest support to moms who are tired of carrying the entire mental load and ready to let go of guilt without lowering their standards for family life. So Joanne, you know that I'm so excited to talk to you after reading all of that. I mean, this couldn't— I don't think there's a mom out there that doesn't need you. Let's start with that.

I, I love, I love to be here. Like, I started this company kind of in my effort to, to help my own mom and to help myself, uh, just have some more happiness in motherhood and not feel like I had to do all the things and then feel resentful about doing all the things. Like, they were out of, like, my life control. And that's something that I've always had trouble with, like, doing things just because I'm supposed to do things. And I wanted motherhood to be different. I wanted to enjoy it.

I love that. We all want to enjoy it even more than we are. And some of us are— some people are not enjoying it at all. So let's help them. Yeah, I did hear that burnout hit you. I did hear that it got you. So tell us, tell us about your own burnout and how that changed things for you.

I, I, I realized how bad burnout got me one Christmas. I had been doing all the things in December, and I think I was really influenced by looking at Instagram at all the other moms doing all the things and thinking like, oh, if I would if I was just more organized, or if I like just planned correctly, I could do this and have it all together. So I was taking over all of like the kids' activities, you know, the end of the year concerts, the end of the year, like stuff, the holiday stuff with schools, doing all of that. And then doing all of the presents, doing all of like the family coordination with like everything we're supposed to do during the holiday. And to top it all off in December, it's like a double whammy because it's my birthday, where I have very high expectations for what people do for me.

Oh my gosh, wait, what date in December?

December 4th.

Okay.

That's my birthday.

So at least it's not like December 20th.

Yeah, yeah. But then my daughter's birthday is December 16th.

Oh gosh.

And so we, like, it's just an incredibly busy month. And my husband, he has a job that is incredibly busy and he's the breadwinner. And so I was like, okay, like his work is stressful. I'm gonna take on as much as I can. In the home along with my own work. And it just happened that on Christmas Day, I broke down crying because I, I didn't feel any of the magic. I just felt unsupported. Like, was this worth it? Was this energy worth it? Um, I didn't feel happy and I just cried. And I'm like, that Christmas, the day before Christmas Eve, my mother-in-law gave me a book that changed my complete outlook, and that was Fair Play by Eve Rodsky. Have you heard of this book?

No.

Fair Play. Okay, recommended reading for everybody because it's all about making the work equitable in the home and about how it was— it like really went against a lot of my myths that I was holding on to, such as that my husband's time was more important than my time because he made more money and brought more money into the house. Um, and it showed how like the house was everybody's responsibility, not just moms. And it also showed how it's stacked unfairly against women in general, because women are taught, like torn away from their work more because of household stuff while men are kind of protected. And so after I read this, I was just sobbing. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is what's happening. I, I need to make a change. And my kids kind of looked at me and they're like, what did we do to break mom? And my husband looked at me and of course he was concerned. Yeah, I was broken.

Mom's broken. What did we do? Yeah.

And you know, you don't want any kid to have that feeling. Like, you want your mom to be happy. I wanted my mom to be happy growing up. I still want my mom to be happy. Like, she's 76 and I'm still trying to push her to do more stuff for herself.

Yes, yes, I'm with you. Yeah, yeah, it's true.

The next day, when I was kind of like, the emotion, the big emotion has passed, my husband and I really sat down and talked about how we could split up the work at home more so that I felt supported, but we were still taking care of all of the, the family activities. And that's when everything like really took off for me and where I felt more happier at home and where I even think like my family has become more happier. My kids have become more self-sufficient and have more confidence. My husband feels like he has a meaningful contribution to the home and he's not just come here for nighttime and leave in the morning for work.

Okay. So I wanna ask you about this because we have similar lives. My husband, and I'm not trying to be— I'm not trying to— I'm looking for the word. I'm not trying to go against what you're saying because we all need that. I'm just presenting this to see what you will say in reaction to it because I'm living a very similar life in that my husband works a ton of hours.

Okay.

So he left at like 7:15 this morning and he'll be back at like 6:45, 7:00 tonight. And I work— okay, so I work part-time. I don't— my, my work is full-time in that it's all the things, you know, the kids, the errands, the house, the work, the job. It's all the things. But I don't disappear from the house from 7:15 to 7, you know what I'm saying? So I don't see how he would possibly do as much as I do at home when he's not even here.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So help me understand it because, I mean, sign me up, but help me understand.

Oh, I love this question so much, um, because I think when we are thinking about the housework becoming like more equitable, um, we think, okay, that it has to be an equal contribution, and that's not possible. Like, it's not possible in my home either because I work from home. I am here when the kids get home. I am the one preparing dinner because I'm the one home that's able to do it. Um, but it really comes down to, do I have the same breaks that he does? Because he leaves the house from like, you know, and my husband's actually on a very similar schedule, like 7:30 to maybe 7:30, like 12 hours. And when he gets home, he gets to relax. And you're laughing here because tell me what you're thinking, Rebecca, when I say that. How nice, how nice. Yes. And even like, how nice that he gets this time alone where like no one else is demanding his attention, really. He gets time in the car with nobody else. Like, isn't that amazing? Like, it's amazing. And I think before I was thinking like, oh, he's working hard all day without even realizing those parts that are put into the day where it's like, wow, like You know what? I am really working hard all day as well. I am, I'm working through all of like the interruptions and having to stop and drop and do things because, you know, a kid needs something. Uh, so when we're talking about like stuff in the home, it's like, are we both making meaningful contributions? Are we in charge of things that we can be in charge of? And so with my husband, like, even though I make dinner, we have a rule in the house that whoever makes the meal cleans up. Um, whoever— I'm sorry, let me rephrase that— whoever makes the meal, the other one cleans up. And that goes for me as well. If he makes the meal, I clean up. So that's one way we kind of balance things. Um, he has jobs that he can do whenever he can. So like, while my jobs may be like, okay, I need to take the kids to sports practice at this particular time, or I need to, to help feed them when they're hungry at this particular time, you know, the things that I kind of like stop and drop because I'm here. He does have more of the jobs that he can do whenever, like take out the trash, or, um, like we had in bulk pickup yesterday. Our city comes around and like picks up trash from like our front yards, which is really, really great, once a month. But we got a notice that we're not allowed to throw away a big rug in bulk pickup. And so what do I do? Because he made dinner last night I was cleaning up. I'm like, okay, like, can you go take care of taking that really big rug out of the pile? Which honestly, Rebecca, I didn't want to do because I had to find a space for that big rug and I did not know where it was. So annoying. So those kind of things where he, he does the work around the house where he can contribute. I don't take that work from him. I don't try to do it when I'm home just because I have a free moment. I'm like, oh, this is, this could be his job.

Yeah, that was really good what you just said. You're living it with me.

Yeah, because I know how the thinking goes. I mean, it led to my burnout. I was like, I'll be so nice, I'll be so nice, and I'll do this. And it just made me so resentful and mad and overloaded and no time for me and no time to really even figure out what I wanted or how I would even fill my time. Like I didn't even know at that point.

Okay. So, so there's a mom listening, she's doing everything. She doesn't know how to begin to divide and give her husband jobs.

Mm-hmm.

Tell her where to start because most of us are doing this.

Yes. Well, I think a really, really big myth around this whole thing is that you have to have this plan going into it and you do not have to have a plan. Yeah. Because I'll say something. If you make the plan, it's going to fail because the rest of the family isn't part of that plan and they have not bought into that plan. So the thing that we did is my husband and I sat down with our two kids actually, and we just started a list of what needs to be done in the house. So it wasn't a list of like, what does mom do? And what does everyone else do? And like making people kind of feel bad and making us feel really good about doing all the things. Um, it was a like, what is the work that we need to get done as a family? And so we made this list and it was really interesting hearing what my husband thought needed to be done and what my kids thought needed to be done and how I kind of like added on it. I'm like, well, you know, if like the dishwasher's unloaded, well, we also need to make sure that there's dish pods right there in the kitchen, like under the sink and that we have those and that the dishwasher— What are you talking about?

They magically appear. There's, there's a laundry fairy. There's a shopping fairy.

Yeah, there are those things. Like, I mean, it's so interesting. I bring up the dishwasher pods because my husband is in— one of his jobs is grocery shopping. I do not go grocery shopping. Um, he, he has his way. He likes to go to the store late at night, like at 8 PM on a Sunday, where he doesn't have to talk to anyone, where he could put on his headphones and like do his little ordered grocery shopping. Um, and I don't do it. I don't touch it. But, uh, we just came back from a trip, him and I, to celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary.

Oh, happy anniversary!

Thank you. And we— like, he, he did the grocery shopping, but he wasn't quite as thorough as he needed to be, um, and he forgot the dishwasher pods. And my son is in charge of dishwashing, and since I'm not involved in it whatsoever, my son's like, oh, we have no dishwasher pods. And he told his dad, he's like, we have no dishwasher pods. And my husband's like, well, you didn't tell me we needed dishwasher pods. So it was their conversation. It wasn't mine. It wasn't my fault.

You weren't even part of it.

I wasn't even part of it. But last night, like, I came home and I was, uh, doing senior pictures with my daughter, uh, cuz she's senior in high school this year, which is crazy. And my husband was making dinner and I, I saw it was gonna take some time and I'm like, you know what? Let me go to the store and get dishwasher pods. Because Rebecca, what I really wanted was wine.

And I was like, oh my God. Oh, I love it. I love it.

So I went, I got my wine, I brought back the dishwasher pods, and everyone was good.

Oh my, I love this story so much. And I love that the conversation was between your husband and your son.

I love it. Yes.

As my daughter says to me the other day, Oh, we're out of egg whites. And I said, why is it that when you're done with things, you just magically expect them to reappear? You have to communicate. They just expect everything to happen.

Yeah, they do.

Not how it works.

How old is your daughter?

So this was the youngest. My youngest is 13. Okay. Um, my middle daughter is 17 and the oldest is 19, is my son who's 19.

Oh, so like with, with the older, like, because I'm experiencing this now with my 17-year-old, we, she likes to go shopping for her own stuff cuz she forgets to tell my husband what he need, what he needs to get from the grocery store. And then he, she doesn't like it anyways cuz he always gets the wrong stuff. So she likes to do it on her own. Um, and what she's found is she's like, She opens the fridge now, and I love seeing this, Rebecca, because I'm like, oh, this is like sweet vengeance. She's like, oh, I have to go shopping. I'm like, yes, you feel our pain.

It's like music. It's like music to my ears. I think when the 17-year-old gets her license, there's gonna be some shopping added to her list.

Definitely. It is the best thing in the entire world. I love—

amazing.

I love having a teen with a a license.

Yes. Do you feel, do you feel a load? Do you feel a little bit lifted with all of this that you're telling us? Do you feel better?

Oh yeah. I mean, like, I, I do not experience the stress anymore, um, that I, that I used to. And it's really hard when kids are young to navigate this. And I think that as like women and moms, like, we need to talk about it more about how like The husbands really need to take on more of a role in raising kids because, and contributing to the house because when they're young, it is all-consuming for everybody. And that I think is when we tend to take on the most when they're young, because we've never experienced this before. Um, we think like it's supposed to be all easy and it's just not. Uh, so I wish I would have had like these systems in place. I wish they would have taught us more than just like giving birth with kids, you know, so that so many women wouldn't put themselves under this stress that I put myself under, that I think everybody puts themselves under, uh, with all this stuff to do.

I mean, I think that people listening might not know what the mental load is, like what the definition is. Can you explain that to them?

Yeah, so the mental load is like that ongoing list of everything that needs to be done that you keep track of in your own head. Um, and you may not even realize you're doing it. It's just like your knowledge. If you feel like you can't leave the house, like on a vacation for yourself, without writing down this entire list of things that need to be taken care of when you're gone, That entire list of things you have to write down, that's your mental load. And that's the thing that's coming, that, that you are holding on to, and that causes the brunt of stress that you don't have to hold on to. That could be delegated to like another adult in your family, um, that could be delegated to some older kids in your family. And younger kids can take on some responsibilities as well. But yeah, we as women take on so much and have to remember so, so much and it causes a lot of stress.

Well, and I'm hearing my friend in my head as we're talking because what she would tell us right now is that her husband doesn't want any of the load.

Yeah, no, I don't, I don't either. Does she, does she want the load? She want it?

No. So, so can we help them with how to approach their husbands with You know, and maybe there's, there's men listening who need to approach their wives. I don't want to say it's one way, but I think it's usually the mom carrying it all. Um, how do they even approach this conversation with their spouse?

Oh my gosh. So this is like the greatest trick in the world, I feel. But if their husband spends any time on Instagram, um, I have a friend, his name is Zach Watson. He is an influencer on Instagram that teaches guys about the mental load. And what, what a lot of women have done after hearing Zach speak or discovering Zach is they go on their husband's phone and they kind of like have, have him follow Zach.

So it just like pops up on his—

I love this because he does a really good job of telling guys like how it is and like how like Zach talks about his marriage going through a lot of struggle because he didn't realize how much of mental load his wife was taking over. And he used to call himself the recovering man-child.

Uh, yeah, this guy sounds amazing.

Yes, he's amazing. Go follow, go follow Zach Watson. Shout out to him.

Um, yeah, for sure. You know I will.

Yes, having, having a guy talk to the guys about the mental load is, is a really great thing. Another way to talk about the mental load And this is something I got from Zach, is, um, to talk about like guys at work, because at work men do have the mental load. If they're thinking in their head, okay, I have to follow up with this employee because they didn't work on this, or I have to follow up with my boss on this, or I have to get this done. That's the mental load. Like everything that they're remembering, they know what it is at work. Well, explaining it and like comparing it to what they have at work. We have the same thing at home, but we're managing it at home and we're managing it in our jobs, and that's why we need to split it up.

Yeah, I mean, I will be honest, I think that my husband has like so much going on at work that I do think that I do try to carry more of the stuff just because I know how much he's dealing with. But I think, I think that we underestimate what they can help with.

Mm-hmm. And, and we underestimate what we're dealing with too. I did the same thing, Rebecca. I did the same thing.

Like, I hear you because I'm doing it right now, so I hear you.

I tried to protect him, and I was like, who is protecting me? Or does he even need protected?

Right? I love that. That's so good. I, you know, it's interesting because even our children— okay, so let's move to the kids. So we want our spouses to help. We want our kids to help. How can we start to get our kids more involved? Because I think that, you know, I'm going to tell you the same story. They go to school, they go to sports, they go to activities, and they're not home a lot. So let's give the kids stuff to do. Let's, let's teach them how to do that.

So one of the great things is just having kids do stuff with you. Um, when you're doing it. If you're up and working, uh, invite them to kind of help and be like, hey, can you— like, I do this a lot with cooking. I'm like, hey, can you just sit here at the kitchen counter and just take like these like tops off the green beans for me? Which is like my dreaded job anytime like green beans are made.

Yes, yes, agree.

Or like, can you just go and get this from the other room for me? Or can you do this? Just so that they are involved in activities and in the home and see how the home is run. Another good thing is to make sure that they have a task completely delegated to them. So for example, my daughter, I mean, she is a busy high school senior, she is not home a lot, uh, so she is in charge of doing all the hand wash dishes and the dishes will be there on the counter waiting for her It is her job to do them. It is her job to decide when to do them. Sometimes she decides to do them at like 11:30 at night when I'm in bed. Fine. If they're done, they're done. Um, and did it take some reminding? Yes. Did it take some expectations of me saying stuff like, oh, oh wait, you want me to pay for this for you? Oh, oh, are the dishes done? Like, and she caught on pretty quickly that like I expected her to do these things.

Um, yes.

And it was part of like this, her contribution to the family. My son, he is in charge of the dishwasher, unloading and loading. Um, and he decides when to do it. And sometimes when he's too tired, I'll have those reminders come in. I'm like, oh, like I, I'll just come in and drop it. I'll be like, hey, I expect the dishwasher to be unloaded before we go to football practice. And then I leave the room and then we don't go to football practice until he unloads the dishwasher.

Oh, well, you are good at this. You're teaching us. You're teaching on the class.

I, I, I, I specialize in vengeance. No, I don't.

I just like to think of it that way because, you know, I can see all of us being like, oh, he has football practice, I'll just do it while he's at football.

Like, that's what I would say.

So, so thank you, you're, you're teaching me lots of things.

I always think about it in terms of boundaries, and my entire, like, perspective of boundaries changed when I heard boundaries being defined as like, it is not something that they do, it is something that you will do. And so when I go into every situation like that, I'm like, how do I have control in this situation? I can't force him to do it, but I can say like, okay, I'm not leaving the house until it's done, because I have control if I leave the house or not and take him.

Yes.

So that's always how I'm like, how can I frame things in a way where I am setting my boundary about what I will and I won't do, um, based on what he has fulfilled in terms of like the expectations of the house and also the expectations of the relationship and how I expect to be treated.

Yes, we all need to learn better boundaries.

Just practice. It's just practice. Practice.

Practice. Well, and You know, the moms will be doing everything right. Everything looks good. They're still miserable. Why do we think moms are miserable?

I think we put too much emphasis on everybody else and not ourselves. Um, we take on the emotional work of other people. There's this great book, it's called The Courage to Be Disliked. And one of the, the main premises of this book is that there is our work and there's other people's work. And I don't mean like just chores. I mean like, how do we handle our own emotions? How do we handle our relationships? Those kind of things. And a lot of times as moms, we insert ourselves into our kids' quote unquote work. We are trying to manage their emotions for them by like, say they get really upset anytime we ask them to do like to, to like pick up after the dog. And so we're like, okay, well, we're just not going to ask them to pick up the dog because we don't want to deal with that emotion. That's us taking on our kids' work and our kids' emotional work, because the best way for them to learn how to handle it is for them to go through it and for them to be able to get to the other side of that emotion. So taking on other people's emotional work, taking on other people's relationship work, when we get involved in like our kids' sibling relationships and we're like, oh, you need to go apologize right now. Well, we can't force anyone to do anything that's under their, uh, their like their control. And so all we can do is be there to support, be there to guide, but not take responsibility of it because we are in everybody else's work. We don't pay attention to what we ourselves want. And what we— what makes ourselves happy. Because I was, I was doing this for a while. I thought I was so busy I didn't have time for anything else. I, I have always loved acting and being on stage. Like, that was my jam when I was in high school. When I had kids, I was like, well, I can't be in any shows or anything like that because I don't want to be away for, for rehearsals, or, you know, because it's It's a commitment when you're in a show. So I completely took myself off of acting, um, and there are other reasons too where I just didn't feel like I could do it anymore because I'm like, I'm an adult, that's not adult things. I realized this last summer what I was doing, and I was taking my daughter around to, to college tours, and I felt this profound sense of sadness, not because she was going away— like, I'm actually really excited for her for that— but more so that she was going on this great adventure, and it was like my life was over and I wasn't allowed to have this adventure anymore. And I was almost jealous that she got to experience college because that was such a fun time and so much independence and so much trying things out and discovery. And I, I went to this a bit, a bit of a depression And I realized that I wasn't happy with quite, quite a few things that were going on in my life. Not my home relationship, but some outside things. And I knew I needed something new. And so my sister-in-law had been involved in improv theater, improv comedy for like the past 3 years. And I'm— it always scared me. I was never that kind of actor. I was like, give me a script, tell me what to say. Like, don't put me upstage and tell like, Saf, do ad-lib. So I'm like, what if I did this? What if I like enrolled in classes and learn how to do improv comedy? And so I did last September, and it has been the biggest joy in my entire life. I love it so much. I'm doing my, my second showcase this coming Monday. Wow. And I've found this thing that I'm passionate about again, so much so that like I wish I had more time to pursue it and less responsibilities. So that when my daughter goes away to college, I'm like, well, there we go, I have something to fill my time. I'm gonna be doing some more improv.

That is amazing. So I think that what I'm hearing is that we put aside our desires and passions and interests. And it's so funny because when my son went away to school, I was like, what, what exciting do I have to look Right. I was like, I'm so happy for him, but I need excitement too. So I relate to your story so much because we need to fulfill ourselves too.

Absolutely. 100%.

Yes. Yes. I think we're sold a lot of lies and myths about motherhood. Can you squash whichever ones you want to squash?

So one of the big lies and myths is that you have to give up everything for your kids. Yes, not true. And I mean, I just use the example of my own mom. Like, I remember just begging my mom to go and do something for herself because I saw like how unhappy she was. Um, I saw like she wasn't happy with the way she looked. Um, she, she wasn't happy like doing everything at home. I would like hear conversations between her and my dad where she'd say, uh, I just wish you would do more stuff around the house. And my dad would be like, well, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And she'd be like, why do I have to tell you what to do? Like, it was the age-old thing. And so I saw these things and I'm like, Mom, I just want you to do something for yourself. And even now, like, she went through a huge thing when I left for college, like just really like crying, depressed, and Um, she, she now watches my niece and nephew and I'm still being like, Mom, what are you doing for you? Because here I am knowing that she's probably gonna fall apart again when they get old enough for school. And I think that's what happens. Like as a parent, you don't, like, I don't want my kids being constantly worried about me. I want them to know that I'm a place where I am secure. I am happy and I can support them and I could like be there to cheer them on. And I also wanna give them the opportunity to be there to cheer me on and to put myself in a position where they could actually see me go out, take a risk, maybe fail, maybe get a little embarrassed, but then pick myself up again and do it again. Because I think that teaches them a much bigger lesson than me being like, oh, you should go try that again. Oh, don't worry about getting embarrassed. Like I need to show them that. Um, yes, yes.

Oh my gosh, you're saying so many good things. So my daughter is so awesome, the 17-year-old. I give her a hard time. She has all these schools she wants to go look at, okay, all over the place. And I am like, no, you're staying close, you're staying close. And she's like, mother, I am not staying close, cut it out and let me go. But I love like her fierceness and independence. And because I want to tell you all that if my mother said, which she did say, no, you're staying close, I will say, okay, Mom, okay.

Like, she's like, nope. Yeah, I did. I, I was kind of the same, except I was like, okay, but we're going 2 hours away instead of staying at home. And that was my condition. And that was still— it brought up like a lot. It was like, she did not like that. She thought I was abandoning her.

Oh, it's so hard. It's so hard. I would love 2 hours. If you could get my daughter to stay within 2 hours, that would be lovely.

My daughter's going to NYU next year, and I'm in Phoenix. Yes.

Oh my God. Okay, so, so Ella loves NYU.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, we'll hook them up. We'll introduce our daughters. My daughter loves telling people about how to get into NYU.

She honestly doesn't know how she did it, but Oh my God, they totally need to have a conversation. No joke, my daughter would love to talk to her. Yeah, so I am so excited for her. It is an amazing school. And you're in Phoenix?

In Phoenix, yeah.

Okay, so yeah, so talk to me, talk to me about this. How are you coping with this?

I love New York. I just love it, and I will take any excuse to go to New York. In fact, NYU has this thing called Weekend on the Square for new students. It happens in April, um, and I'm unfortunately not able to go because I have an event I'm doing for my community on that same day. And so my husband and my daughter are going, and I'm like, well, why? Because like, I have that love for New York. I know that, um, I know my flights out there Um, 7:00 AM flight from Sky Harbor will get me there by 1:00 PM New York time, direct. Uh, so that is a comfort. And, um, I'm going to— we're great on FaceTime. She had a summer school last year where she was in New York for 2 weeks, and that was kind of like the, the like trial period to see if she liked it and to see if like how it would go for her. And she was closer to us during that time than I think when she was home. Like, we knew more about what was going on in her life because she would like text audio messages and FaceTime, versus here at home it was— it's kind of taken for granted if you're at home. Yeah, like, okay, I just want to decompress in my room right now and not talk to anyone.

It's true, it's true. Well, you are helping me. Ella will be thrilled that I spoke to you.

Yeah, it's, it's gonna be good, it's gonna be good. And there's tons of parent groups for these colleges. I'm already in two for NYU on Facebook, which I don't know if that's healthy or not, but I'm—

no, it's definitely helpful. I agree with— I love the mom, uh, college groups that I'm in. So, okay, so back to moms feeling guilty. Okay, so moms could be doing their absolute best and they still feel guilty. Why is this?

I— it all comes down to expectations and societal expectations. Like, it is not your fault if you feel guilty. This has been baked inside of you from the get-go that you should be doing all of these things for your family. And so since you have all these expectations based on what you've seen in our culture, based on what you've seen in our society, it's only normal that when you decide to go against those like societal norms of what you think good moms should do, that you're gonna— and like experience a little bit of dissonance. You're going to experience some pain, and that could come out as guilt that you're doing something wrong. Uh, something that helps is if you are in a community of moms who are also doing the same thing and who are talking. If you're listening to podcasts like yours, Rebecca Greene, and you're hearing this conversation right now, and you're like, wait a minute, like, other moms are doing this and they're so much happier Like this, I think I want to try it too. And it's not easy all the time where you decide to do something against the norms, but oh, I swear it is so worth it and wonderful, and you feel so much stronger and confident. And also, like, I think one thing that we don't talk about a lot is that when we go, like, always going along with what we think other people expect of us, there's this feeling that it's all going to be taken away at some time, that we're going to mess up, um, that we're going to say something wrong and that people will turn on us or people will not like us or something of our life will change. And when you start doing things against the norm and you see when those things happen, first of all, they're not that bad, and second, you feel so much stronger and more confident on your own two feet. You feel so much more willing to take the risks because you're like, I don't really care what other people do. I know I can figure this out. And I know that there are similar people in the world with me who I would rather be hanging out with than the people who are telling me I have to do these things or reinforcing these norms that I don't even feel happy in.

I mean, that's all so good. It's all so good. And as you're talking, I'm realizing, you know, we hopefully, we know this. Our family wants us to be happy. They want us to want to be around them and be joyful and not be, like, drained and exhausted and depressed. And they don't want that for us.

Right. So there's also, like, guilt that comes as a child if your mom is unhappy. Like, I felt I always had to make my mom happy. And that's not my job, and I don't want that to be my kid's job for me.

No, no. So, okay, so someone's listening, they're overwhelmed, they're burned out, they're exhausted. Tell them where to start with a small shift.

Um, one thing you can do is today just think about something like you'd want to do for yourself, something completely Like you may even label it as selfish because sometimes we label the things that we actually need to do for our own happiness as selfish and then we don't do them. So just think of like one thing, think of one thing that will maybe be like an hour of your time that you're taking away from your family and then go commit to do it. Do it just for you and see what happens. See how it feels. It's gonna feel uncomfortable at first. You're gonna feel like you're doing something wrong. But you're probably gonna come back and even though there might be some, oh, we didn't get this done, mom, or this happened, it's nothing that's not fixable and it's nothing that's not figureoutable. So just take it like step by step. And then like the second thing to do is go read my book, The Best Mom Is a Happy Mom, because I give you all those stories about what happens and things to do, and that's gonna boost your confidence. So much to start doing more stuff for you.

Well, and tell us about this community that you're talking about.

Oh, so, um, there at No Guilt Mom, I have a membership called the Inner Circle, and what we work on is we work on redoing our mindset around guilt, around the things that we need. We work on figuring out, okay, what is it exactly that I want? Whose work am I taking on? Like, am I taking on too much? What is my responsibility? What isn't my responsibility? And also like, what goals do I have for myself? What do I want to do? What do I find fun and I want to achieve? And refocusing like that. Um, because the first step is really changing your mindset and how you're thinking. And the second step is knowing that you have people in your corner supporting you and going through this same shift. Like I was, I, I apologize at the beginning to you, Rebecca, this interview, cuz I was a little late cuz we were doing group coaching. And, uh, in group coaching, one of the things that happens is, uh, women come on with a, an issue in their life. We talk about it and we also give solutions from our own lives where that exact thing has happened and how we have struggled. And it's not so important that other women ha have the solution because a lot of times they don't have the solution, but just talking about, yes, I've experienced that challenge. And yes, I have felt those same things that you have felt right now is so much comfort and relief because we think we're so alone.

Yes, yes. And I want to tell you progress that you're going to be so proud of. My daughter was like, I want to go do this poetry slam and it's downtown and it's at this time. And I'm like, I had these plans like you. I Old me would have dropped everything for my child, right? I would have dropped everything and I would have been like, let's go, you want to do this contest? I'm all for it. New me, in quotes, new, is like, I have these plans that I don't want to cancel. So no.

Yes, yes. Love that. Absolutely.

I knew you would be so proud. I had to tell you.

Yeah, like the Poetry Slam. I'd be like, nope, sorry, find your own way there.

No, I'm like, if, if you drove, if you got your license—

yeah, go get your license.

What's good? I was like, I'm tired of driving you everywhere.

It's so funny with the licensing. My daughter was one of those who did not like— who was so scared of driving, and we're like, okay, it's time, let's go get your learner's permit. And she eventually did come to love it. She loves the independence with it. My, uh, 12-year-old, almost 13-year-old son is like, "And can I get mine early? When are we—

where are we going?" That's the 17-year-old is like, "I don't really like this driving thing," and the 13-year-old is like, "I can't wait." Exactly.

It's so funny how it's so different between kids.

It's so different. So, so where can everybody find you?

So come and listen to the No Guilt Mom podcast. It is wherever you listen to podcasts, um, or come visit me at noguiltmom.com. And, uh, I'm, I'm there as well as on Instagram. Uh, just, uh, and get the book, The Best Mom is a Happy Mom, available on Amazon. That was a lot of, uh, of, of things you can go see me on. Yes.

Well, that's good because we want to find you in all of the things. And I want to find your friend too. Tell me his name again.

Zach Watson.

Zach Watson. Okay, I gotta go find both of you online. So thank you for taking time out of your crazy schedule, because I know we're all so busy, and I appreciate your time and your expertise, and I just loved talking to you.

I love talking with you too, Rebecca. Thank you so much for having me.

My pleasure. This is Rebecca Greene, and I want to remind everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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