The Whinypaluza Podcast Episode 132 Book Club Reviews Everybody Fights By The Holderness Family

No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza! Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza Podcast with Rebecca Green.

Welcome to the Whiny Palooza Podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Green. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.

Hello, this is Rebecca Green for the Whiny Palooza podcast, and I'm like over the moon excited because I have some of my very best friends here with me today. I have my book club. Hello, ladies! Hello! Thank you for joining me. This is really like so exciting for me.

We're excited.

Let me introduce each one of you. Um, I have Jamie Potash first. She is a wife, mother of 4, and many fur babies. I have 8 from last time, Jamie. I think— are you at 9?

We are standing at 9.

Okay, so I'm like, this is old, she's not at 8 anymore. She manages a very busy home on top of fitting in her job at Bella Kids. She's super insightful and I can't wait to hear what she has to say. So that's Jamie. Jamie, thank you for being here.

For inviting us.

So next is Kristen Siopa. She is a wife, mother of 2, hairstylist, avid reader, and organizational master. I am sure she's organized her amazing thoughts on the book for today. Hi, Kristen. Hello. And last but not least is the fabulous Tayten Brannen. She is a wife, mother of 2, and fabulous project manager at Market Domination. She just happens to produce my podcast, so I love when I can get her in front of the camera. Hi, Tayten.

Hi.

I suckered you into to coming in front of the camera instead of all the work you do behind the camera. So we read this, this book was my choice, and we have said no self-help books. So my apologies to my book club. I really thought, okay, we love the Holderness family. This is the Holderness family's book, Everybody Fights. So I was like, you know what, I can get a kind of self-help book past them if it's the Holderness family.

It's an entertaining self-help book.

It's an entertaining self-help book, and, and we enjoyed it, and I really did try multiple ways to get the Holderness family on here with us. I did not succeed yet, but I am not giving up. And they are so, they're so busy. I mean, I didn't expect a response, but I'm going to keep trying. So you never know, ladies.

Did, did you ask for what you want and give them a because?

Aye, there you go. I think that I should be more specific. But I have a couple more tricks up my sleeve that I will tell you later, but I am still trying. But we— this is what we read, so we're going to talk about it. And there are so many topics to talk about. They talked about so many good things about marriage. It's always good for me to read about marriage and parenting and family. So let's start with their rules of fighting, which I thought was fascinating that they have rules for fighting. Do you ladies have rules to your fighting at home with your husband?

I do, but they're very simple.

Like, give us an example.

I agree that you should fight in front of your kids if you are healthy about it. Like, your kids definitely should witness conflict resolution in a healthy relationship. Um, we don't have any of our major, major fights in front of them, obviously, but just, you know, little day-to-day ones. They see this stuff. The one rule that is fairly new is that we just have learned to give each other space because oftentimes you just need the space to cool off instead of pecking at it and pecking at it when it's clearly not the time to be doing that.

Those are my only rules.

And, you know, to be kind, like, be fair and be kind about your arguments.

So She, she's bringing me to my second question with what she said, unless Jamie or Kristin wants to chime in. Are we good? I'm going to move on because, um, Tayton took us to the next question. Um, they talked about the sympathetic nervous system, and I actually haven't spelled this out to Seth, but I will. Um, Seth is my husband, for those of you who don't know. Um, so have you learned to identify when you are not in a good state to fight? And before I throw that out to you guys, I want to, I want to say, I want to say what Tayton said is so important. It was the key to a shift with Seth and I because Seth would badger me to talk when I wasn't in a good state. So I realized I had to tell him and teach him that I have to cool off before we talk, which is like huge with us. That's new. So, do you guys, are you able to identify when you're in a good state to have like a more productive fight?

I'll let you guys chime in. I have an answer, but go ahead.

I don't even know how to answer this because there's so many multiple ways of arguing that, you know, it could be minuscule to hands down, let's get the gloves out, you know. Um, and of course we always say, oh, don't fight in front of the kids, but we do. So what can we do? It comes out, like you said. Um, I think that most of the time we definitely need to walk away for sure and then come back. Like, I kind of, um, If I get aggravated, I'm definitely not the type to kiss and make up. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't go down well.

Or maybe, which we'll get to later. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, Penn and Kim talk about how we can't have a necessarily good conversation when we're like, scientifically, they talk about the research behind, like, we can't have a good conversation when our sympathetic nervous system is like, I got I gotta get away from you, or I wanna rip your head off.

Well, Nick, it, it definitely blows, boils down to what tone do you take to start this process? So, and Jamie and I were talking about this, like if he has his claws out, mine are coming out like right then and there. Like it's kind of like, if you're up here, I'm up here. And if you're down here talking like calm and cool and collected, then I'm gonna have the same tone. Like, oh, you're just talking. I probably get a little defensive where I don't mean to, and it's hard to control that because he'll be like, I'm not yelling, I'm just trying to talk. So, I tend to be thinking that the conversation will escalate into an argument or fight or whatever. So, I do tend to pounce, which after 26 years, I still can't control.

We're always evolving, right?

We always have work to to do.

Yeah, I will say that a lot of it is, um, it's tone setting, but it's about being able to also read the other person. So I talk loud, I talk fast, I tend to be excitable and animated, and some people think it's yelling or shouting, but I'm really just trying to be heard, um, or to get my thought across before I forget what I was going to say. Um, I think it depends on what the fight is about. Say I'm going to address this right now because I feel like some things, you know, I'm not going to remember how I felt in an hour from now when it's okay, you know, with you at 4 o'clock after your show is over. Or whatever the case. I sometimes I feel that you need to address things right then and there if it's really an issue that's a reactive— it's something very relevant. You know, some things can obviously wait, like if you have to go on the computer and check something, or if you have to have a private conversation because you don't want kids to hear what it is you're talking about. It's really like a sensitive topic versus a full-out fight, like a reactionary fight. You have to really be able to gauge the situation. What is this? Pertaining to, and you have to read the signs of the other person. You know, what's their body language? What is their, you know, do they have patience for it or not? Are they ready to explode or not? You have to know how far you can press it before you get yourself in more hot water. But you definitely don't want to say something you will regret because that's the, you know, that's the thing that will put you over the edge and you can't always come back from that.

Yeah, so I think I echo what you say, but yeah, it's about— it's a matter of like knowing where, where you are. Like, are you going to be unreasonable and just say things that are unfair and hurtful and not, you know, conducive to making the argument count for anything? Um, or, you know, you just have to kind of read the room, literally. Yeah. I agree.

Seth has gotten good at saying, oh boy, I better not talk to her right now.

Which comes with marriage. Like the longer you're together, you really, really can read the signs. Like that's definitely something we all get better at the longer we've been with our partners.

So we can hope for that.

We're all pros at it by now.

Oh my gosh.

I know.

How many, how many years have we all been married? Tayton, you start.

We've been married for 17. We've been together for 20, almost 27. Yeah.

Wow.

A long time.

Long time.

Long time.

I think Kristen has— Kristen, how many years have you been married?

Sophia here has been married 26 years together, 27 years.

Wait, what?

We got engaged after 4 months of dating, got married less than 1 year later.

That's a long time to be married. That's impressive.

But we dated while we were married.

You did.

You totally—

we, we still date, right? I still date my husband.

For the first 5 years before kids, we dated though, you know, during marriage, because we just kind of knew. That's awesome.

What about Jamie? How many years?

We've been together since '01, and we got married— we've been married for 18 years.

So we've all been married a long time. I actually, I had to do the math today. Is that terrible?

Same thing with your age. Like, I'm like, how old am I now?

I don't know. Like, how many years? How many years, Rebecca? So we've been married for 6 16, and we've been together for 17. So it was, it was quick.

It was quick.

Okay, let's talk about the word metacommunication. I love this word, talking about how you and your partner communicate. Do you do this with your husband? Like, later on, do you talk about how you communicate?

Oh, it's like having a meeting about a meeting. Yeah, I love the play-by-play. I love analyzing. I love being able to identify and to label, but mine does not want to engage with me on any of that. It's very ABCD: what happened, how do we fix it, what are the choices, and resolution, plan to action. That is all.

I get it.

Yep.

He's like, let's move on.

Yes, there's, there's no deliberation or you know, overblowing it out of proportion, none of that. It's very systematic. But that's why I have you, right?

We do, we do analyze it, don't we?

Yeah, I'm good at doing it after we've calmed down. Like, obviously, you know, if we're both in a place where we're not going to be productive about whatever we're disagreeing on, then we give each other some space And then when we're calmed down, I will definitely— I'm good at voicing. I'm always the one who brings it up. So like, if it were up to my husband, we would just forget and move on, like, until I annoy him again, or vice versa. But I always want to like analyze what happened and be like, this is how it made me feel, and I'm sorry, I'm trying to see it from your point of view. So I'm definitely the one who kind of spearheads any conversation like that. Um, but it's always afterward, either when we're no longer mad at each other or we've just calmed down enough that we can, you know, be a little lighter about it when we're discussing things. And of course there's always, you know, the moments with where there's a serious conversation, in which case, you know, we set aside time and sit down and have that serious conversation.

So that is what like a therapist would tell you, Tayton. They would say talk about it after way after the fight. I can't talk about it during the fight, but way after the fight I'll be like, well, I did this wrong again. Um, you know, but then I also try to focus on what am I doing right, because if I talk about what I'm doing right, I can build on that and do that again. But, um, you won't be surprised to know that Seth loves to analyze stuff with me.

But you guys laugh a lot together too. Like, you, like, you know, when you come around and then talk about it or whatever, you do tend to laugh. Um, I have, and you all know Joe is Mr. Communicator, so when you talk about do you communicate after you fight and talk about what you fought about, yes, for days. And then, then the question is, is Why are you so defensive? Because you brought the claws out. What can I say?

Oh my gosh.

My feeling is, my feeling is, is that if someone doesn't want to engage with you, then there are things that they either don't want to say or they don't really like communicating. Um, I have no problem saying whatever it is that my deepest, darkest feelings. I don't mind sharing that, but I think think the other person doesn't.

So, um, sometimes that's like a defense mechanism, like if the person's really feeling hurt that they feel like they're not going to be the one to initiate any kind of healing, and I'm just not going to talk to you, right? Yeah.

And you know, the, the sharing of emotions or feelings or any kind of analytics at all, even if it's not an emotional statement, I feel the sharing of that is too closely guarded And like, I need a sparring partner. Like, I need to get up there on that beam and I need to spar with you. I feel like I've always felt that way. And you know, it doesn't have to be combative necessarily. It just has to be like a volley, like a ping pong match or a volleyball match. If I hit the ball over the net, you need to, you need to hit it back.

I think Jamie and Kristen are sparring masters.

Kristen has a partner. Who knows taekwondo. So I guarantee you there's some engagement going on.

There's definitely some sparring equipment in this house, that's for sure.

Oh my gosh, I think that Jamie forgets that Ari is really good at balancing her out. And I, and I think that even though it can frustrate you, I think that you need him to be, you know, at a different level than you.

I think it's a good—

I think it brings you back down.

I mean, yes, I agree with you in that regard, but I really, you know, sometimes I do— there was something that was just in one of the later chapters I listened to about being heard. And, you know, did you hear me? And just in mundane things, it doesn't have to be, you know, did you hear me that I said I wanted a 5th child? You know, not that kind of an important statement. But did you hear me about the idea I had or about the, you know, whatever it is? I just, you know, the feeling of being unheard or unseen or disregarded. That's a big one. And I'm surprised it came so late into the book, to be honest. It's a very valid point.

I know we're going to talk about this, but I really was impressed with how real and open and honest they were. Like, they really throw themselves under the bus in a good way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they're also very in tune with each other, and they're not afraid. The two things, two factors are fear. Like, so what three things hold us back? Time, fear, and money. So the fear of saying something that you might be ridiculed for or rejected is a lot of what holds people back from doing or engaging, but also the communication factor. It really, really boils down to communication. Can you express yourself? Can you accept to listen to what the other person has to say? You know, communication is really the solution to pretty much every war there was ever started. If you just go and talk to the person, they will— if they sit and hear you, then you can hash out a solution. Um, it's when people go in like guns a-blazin' that people die. Very simple.

Yeah.

Well, and I think, I think that one of the worst things that I— worst things that I do when I'm fighting is one of my favorite lines that they talk about is that I don't stay in the airport. Okay, so I will be pissed about A, but then I will start dragging in B, C, D, E, F, G. How do you do with just staying focused on the topic and staying in the airport?

Me, me, me.

Tell us, Kristen.

You just totally described Joe and I. So he stays in the airport and like you, I drag in A, B, C, and D. But again, I get defensive and like what Jamie said, they don't, they don't mind hearing like your deepest, darkest thoughts, but they don't need you to bring up a story that was relative to kindergarten about this fight. Like, in other words, like, why are we talking about this? Where did this go? Like, it totally got off the beaten path. That's me. I love tangents. I feel like I need to add them to make the story complete, even though they're not necessary. And I'm learning I'm learning. That's— audiobooks help me with this because I— it teaches you to listen, and that's definitely been a big key over time, not just in my marriage but in general, like for myself. Listen. And of course, being a hairstylist and having conversations with people, you listen and then you talk. Um, but in general, going back to the airport, yes. I must leave the airport and he stays there.

Going on a trip, see you later.

But I like when he says that. I like when Seth, if I'm in a good state, if I'm in a good state and Seth says, um, can we stay focused on the topic? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm kind of going off to something else I'm mad about.

Yep.

Yeah.

I have definitely learned to stay in the airport. I have not always been that person. Um, it, yeah, it's definitely part of the growth process with your marriage is, is learning to focus in because I find the more you reach out and like pull, you're, you're basically pulling things as ammunition to hurt them. Like you did this and you did this and it has nothing to do with what's going on right now. Sometimes it does, and it's worth bringing up because if it's like a pattern that keeps repeating and repeating and you get like, that's pretty much the only time I stay in my airport, but I think— or don't stay in the airport, but I'm still going to the same journey. It's like a connecting flight, maybe. Still getting to JFK. Oh my gosh, it's happening.

One thing in the book that they bring up about like how they fight is He mentioned saying like, I feel this instead of saying, well, you did this and you did that. Like it brings into the key element of your feelings and how they can be validated versus more of an accusatory statement. I didn't say that word right, but, you know, like And I— this is the one thing I did learn from this book, is trying to rephrase that. I'm going to try and use that 'I feel this' instead of 'I feel that you could please put your dishes in the sink when the magnet says dirty after I just cleaned the sink' versus 'You know the magnet's dirty, says dirty.' Because I know it's frustrating.

I know we've all been there.

Yeah.

Why do you think it's important to fight? They talk about that.

I think if you, if you didn't, you would just build up, build up, and the dam would break, and all hell would break loose, and everyone would be like, oh my God, what the heck is happening? Um, I don't think it's healthy at all to to keep everything in.

Yeah, it's, it's a litmus test of your relationship. Like, if you're constantly on each other, that's one thing, but if you get to the point where you're complacent and people, you know, your partner does stuff that upsets you and you're just like, whatever, or they're like, whatever, I know it hurts your feelings, but whatever, like, that to me is, it's bad news. Um, things are not, not going to be good if you continue that way. So It's important to fight so you don't get to that place of resentment or complacency, and it's a way to kind of air your grievances. And the key thing that they've said a few times in the book is that your partner isn't a mind reader. And the longer you're together, the easier it is to forget that because you guys know each other so well, but you never are going to be able to read each other's minds. You might be better at anticipating how somebody's going to react to something or how it will make them feel, but you still have to say what's on your mind. So that's why fighting is important.

Well, also, I mean, advocacy for what you're passionate about. So if you're really passionate about animal rescue, like, why are you gonna go let your husband walk off to the most expensive breeder in town when you're like, no, no, wait, let's discuss this, you know, let's look at all the avenues and let's discuss what's important to me, what's important to you. You have to hash it out. Or if it's a school-related thing with your kids. Like, you know, there's not always a clear role of which parent takes which role, and sometimes you need to have that hash out session because, you know, one person might take on like the secret contract. One person might have a secretly contracted role of I'm always the disciplinarian, or I'm always the— these two subjects are mine and these two subjects are yours. And if you're not passionate about something and you don't want to stand up for what you believe in or what's important to you, then, and the fire goes out, then the relationship could be very quickly dead in the water. So true. Passion equals, you know, making a stand, but also wanting to work toward a conflict resolution.

Yeah. Well, yeah. And if they say, if you gotta grow, like in the very first chapter, they talk about it's, it's important to learn how to grow from your fights. And that's, that's the, the key part. Like, yes, it's important to fight, but not if it's just leading to nothing and more arguments and more just, you know, dislike for each other. It's, it's a way of communicating. It might not be a pleasant way of communicating, but it's one of the key communication factors in a marriage is fighting. It's just the way it is. We do it with our kids, we do it with our parents, sometimes with our friends. But yeah.

Well, and you started us off with talking about fighting in front of the kids. And it's so important for so many reasons, but you know, like Seth's parents didn't fight in front of him. So he knew nothing about fighting. So we would fight and he would be like so upset. And I would have to teach him that it was like a normal part of a relationship. And it shows how much I care. Like I'm fighting with you because I care so much.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It's true. It's true. Fight in front of your kids. Hopefully, hopefully respectfully fight in front of your kids.

That's, that's key. Like, that's the golden rule in fighting in front of your kids. Don't ever disrespect your spouse because that's not okay in front of anybody. Don't ever disrespect your spouse in front of anybody.

Exactly. I love that.

Yeah.

Okay, so stonewalling. Oh boy.

My husband is the king of stonewalling, I have to say, which is why I'm the one like, okay, we're going to talk about this. You're not getting away with this. We're talking about it now.

Oh my gosh. It's really torturous to people. Are any of you stonewallers?

If I, for a very brief moment, like if you compare it to like a blinking contest, I lose every time. I don't have the stamina to be a stonewaller for more than like a day.

So, I have had to shift. Seth would've told you I was a stonewaller, but I realized I wasn't trying to be a stonewaller. I was trying to decompress. So, I've relabeled it to, I have to say, I want to talk to you, but not right now. So that helps him not feel stonewalled.

Yeah.

Well, it's kind of like saying no to your children. I'm not telling you no, you can't go to the game. You just can't go tonight. So you can go to Saturday. You're kind of putting it off until it's more convenient for your own self, or until you've had a time to think about your thoughts and how you're going to present your argument or your position on the, on the matter. But I can't stand to be shut down. Like, you know, when people just go run and duck and cover, I just like, I think that is like the weakest. I hate it. I honestly, it just drives me insane. Like people who have no response. Like, it makes no sense to me. Like, how do you just not respond or shut down someone trying to have to engage with you? It's not like I'm, you know, someone knocking at the door trying to sell you magazines, you know. It— what I have to say is valid, and I, I would like to be recognized or, you know, acknowledged.

I think sometimes that's, that's, um, how it works. Like, they— a person who's really good at stonewalling with somebody who doesn't like it, they weaponize it because they know that it's pissing them off by not engaging. And so they're like, yep, not engaging. You've made me mad, so I'm not saying anything, and you're gonna get mad about that, and you deserve it.

That to me is very childish. It's very immature. And, you know, I always, I always ask for what I want and I, and I, and I cite many reasons, the because, um, I just, it just makes no sense to me that people can just get away with that and think that it's okay.

Um, well, do you, I don't know if you guys know who John Gottman is, but he's got, John Gottman is, but he's one of like these big marital gurus in my world. And he talks about the Four Horsemen. To marriage, and stonewalling is one of them. So, I mean, he says it's like one of the worst things that you can do for your marriage.

So it is. I think it stems from, like I said before, it's, it's a defense mechanism. Some people just aren't— they, they aren't equipped with the communication skills, and when they haven't developed them, then stonewalling is like the easiest sure way to avoid, you know, diving into something that, that's painful and hurtful to them.

My next question is like, what are you so afraid of? You know, I just— fear to me does not register. I have no fear. I don't mind or have a problem talking about things that are either sensitive topics or, you know, that someone doesn't want to say that word, or, um, you know, even in this, in the sex chapter, you know, like there really isn't anything so sensitive that I can't just come out and say it. And it's not like I'm just talking to my very, very religious neighbor about something. It's, you know, we've had these conversations, we know each other well. There shouldn't be an off-limits— I mean, I understand the timing issue, like, no, I'm not having this conversation, I have a conference call in 15 minutes. But yeah, you know, there just has to be more of a willingness to be participatory in the conversation that's needing to be had.

Okay, so jump to, jump to the sex chapter because I, I am always floored, myself included. I'm guilty. Why do you think sex gets pushed to the bottom of the list when we know how important it is for our marriage?

I know why. I'm just going to say it. I think everyone assumes that the other person is just going to make the first move. I think it's one of the reasons, or that like, it'll just— the whimsical, it'll just happen. Which is great when you're like a teenager or in your 20s or you're just—

No kids.

Ready.

But that's a long time ago mentality.

Yeah. I have to actually just— this came to mind. I wasn't even thinking about it before, but where they were talking about a woman's brain. And how it's constantly on and on and on. And I think the more hectic your lives get, the more your brain just goes, goes, goes. And it's really hard to shift gears from like, I've got all these things going on that I'm thinking about. Like, even just to go to sleep is hard sometimes, but to be like, okay, let's have sex. Like, sometimes it just doesn't work that way for me. It's true.

Well, it's very true. It's like going from having all this stuff to, um, be okay, I'll just get romantic real quick so that I can move on or back to the list.

No, I don't. Um, I also think that it's, it's, uh, my theme here is the litmus test, that it really, um, when you're not feeling connected to your partner And oftentimes the more busy you are and the more you've got going on, chances are you're probably in some kind of conflict about, you know, who's doing what and who's more busy and who's taking on more responsibility. And when you stop feeling that connection, then that's like the first thing to go is that intimacy, when really it's kind of counterintuitive. I like what they say is, you know, when you make time for it and schedule it and just, you know, put it in there as an expectation, then the rest of the way is a lot easier.

So, I was also going to say it's really hard to do all those things with all the noises that are accompanied with the activity when you have teenagers whose bedrooms are very close to your own and the walls are not fully insulated.

I can hear my kid talking in the next room. It's probably not the right time.

I would say the level of paranoia is very deep for me.

It's hard.

I—

having teenagers makes it a whole new ball game.

There's no bedtime.

I, I'm ready to go to sleep and he's screaming at his friends on his computer. I'm like, you really should go to bed. I know, Mom. I'm like, so what do you think of scheduled sex days?

It sounds like a huge drag, but honestly, I'm like, if you have to do it, you have to do it. Yeah. And then you'll grow to love it, right?

You know, like a gym.

If you have to do it, once you get in the mood on Wednesday.

Well, it's maintenance. And then you know that if Wednesday's your day, you know that you've got to get in that shower. You got to go shave. You got to use your special lotion.

I shave my legs for this.

Whatever you have to do, you gotta prepare.

Wait, so what, what was it? Was it Little Fires Everywhere where it was Wednesday and Saturday? Yes, I thought of that. Yes, so Seth jokes all the time about Wednesday and Saturday because of Little Fires Everywhere. I, I really like spontaneity. It really— I really like it. Um, I like variety. I don't know that scheduled days would work for me, but I do see the benefits. I think people who schedule it—

it's a starting point. I think it's not like, okay, for the rest of time, we're going to have sex on these nights, no matter what. Like, it's, it's a means to an end. Like if, if you're having an issue with it now, then that's, that's your vehicle to get there to where you just are having it more spontaneously.

Why do you guys think I do so much laundry?

To make yourself aware tonight and make yourself present.

Um, no, that's like their code word. Um, I think it's in the book.

Read the book.

You just have to like, you know, give, give the other person a heads up and say, look, you know, uh, what are you doing? 2 AM? Meet me at the, uh, meet me at the middle. Um, yeah, but I think you have to start with that. But like Some people can get away with like, I used to look over the banister and I used to give him the signal because it was nap time for the kids, but he was downstairs watching TV. And I'm like, we need to utilize this time to put a movie on or—

No, we need a sex bell. He could see me.

I would just walk over and I would flash something. And that was code for, you know, pause the show.

Up here.

Business time.

Pause. Pause the show.

That's right. I think when there's a will, there's a way. I think that you have to schedule it in there, even if it's not regulated. It just has to be like in 2 hours from now and in 10 hours from now, whatever works for the Google Calendar, the shared Google Calendar. I just think that you have to put it as a priority because it is a connection. It's another tool, a connectivity tool, and, you know, obviously it's a means of communication and It's important for, you know, mommy daddy time, you know. I love that jingle and that was like brilliant. I just think that people who don't do that, you know, they're missing out.

I would say that— oh, sorry.

No, go ahead.

I think it's funny that marriage has become afternoon delight. For people who do have kids who are like, they're at school and people are now working more from home and, you know, they can flip the switch. It kind of does make it easier on both, both parents because when you crawl into bed at 11 o'clock at night, there is no, like, you're just wiped. You're too tired. You're thinking of tomorrow's meeting and what am I going to wear? And is everything clean? And For women, it's like, okay, did I, do I have enough food in the house? We got to pack lunches. Like, what are we having for dinner? And where do I have to be? Who do I have to go get? What do I have to do? And who has to be XYZ? Like, where do they have to be? So Afternoon Delight has definitely become more of a staple nowadays.

It improves the chances.

It improves the chances.

Yes.

Well, and Kristin, we joke about this all the time, you and I. I love that they talk about how they are as a couple when they are having sex versus how they are as a couple when they're not having sex. Like, our husbands— we joke about how irritable our husbands get when they're not getting sex.

Oh yeah, you—

Taiten agrees. I know. Um, so I think we're just nicer to each other and like each other more if we're having regular sex.

It's true. I have to tell you, my— when my kids went away for a week this summer, my husband and I had a great time while they were away. When they got back, my son was just like, why are you guys hugging and kissing all the time?

Because you were on vacation and so were we.

Even my kids could notice that we were a little different, like definitely more connected. So it's very important. And I'm, I'm fully guilty of being the first person to let it like get on the back burner. I'm too tired. I'm too stressed.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. No, I know.

I know.

I think it is interesting, like for, especially for women, cause we're definitely more hormonal, but I think it's interesting that what we, um, put first over having sex. Like, oh, I want to finish this book, or yeah, I didn't shower today, or, you know, just like, I don't know, a million things. Could be a million things. The list, the to-do list is too stuck in your head, you can't escape it, whatever. I find it, it's interesting with men where they're like, I could use some stress relief.

Well, it's like the, the thing with falling asleep. Like, my brain, it takes me a while to fall asleep, like at least 30 minutes. And my husband, as soon as he hits the pillow, he's out. And I think it's the same way with sex. Like, I have a million things going on, it takes me a while to like shift gears. With him, it's just like, okay, the minute— okay, yes, we're doing this now.

The therapist that I just talked about said that men's brain is boxes.

Okay.

Absolutely.

And that women are spaghetti. And I was like, that is so true.

It is true.

I'm like, that's such a good explanation.

Amy, I think you have a lot of thoughts sitting there. I can see the wheels turning.

Well, I mean, we, we've talked about—

We could do a whole podcast on sex with Jamie.

We've talked about how men and women are built differently and how even, even men, you know, you take 4 or 10 or 200 men, you compare them, they're not all even alike each other. They have obviously very different biochemical needs than we do. Um, their drive is different, their stress levels are different. Um, but you know, most of us still find our husbands sexy. It's just we have a much higher level of thought process that goes into how we feel or the all the things, the lists that run through our head daily. Um, we're much more high-level multitaskers and I think that weighs on us. You know, we think a lot more emotionally, mentally versus men are just thinking like their basic needs. You know, it's just a basic need. It's not a, I love you so much and I think you're so sexy. It's like, yeah, I've got a problem and you need to fix it. Very cut and dry. Um, and I, I, I, uh, and I've seen always But I think that, you know, women just— it's not like your wifely duty. That's a lot of nonsense. I think that women should be excited that their husbands or their boyfriends are still finding them desirable. But I think that there shouldn't be a someone needs to wait for someone else. It should just be a if you want it, go get it. Yeah, it shouldn't be a I'm going to wait for the moon to rise and the owl to hoot, you know, whatever sign you're waiting for. You just gotta— if you want it, you gotta go get it. End of story.

It's true.

I know I'm very guilty of waiting, and when I pursue, he is so excited. So I have to remember, I have to remember that I'm, I'm not the pursuer, and I have to remember how important that is to him.

The chances that you're gonna get turned down are slim to none.

You really are.

Just go with it.

Excellent point.

No fear of rejection.

I love that. Can we jump to money? Yeah, they talk a lot about money. One person tends to be the bigger spender. Who's the bigger spender? Do you fight about money? What did you, what did you think of that whole money section in the book?

The money section was really intriguing to me. I am a shopper. I love to, like, I make small but frequent purchases. My husband is not a shopper. He literally has, I think I finally managed to purge him of all the clothes that he had when he was 20 when we met, but he's not a shopper, but he likes, like Penn in the book says, he's more of an experience person. He buys experiences. My husband buys very infrequent but big purchases, whether it's like a car or a vacation or, you know, some stereo equipment or something. So I would say, you know, money-wise, maybe it's fairly equal, but it's— I'm definitely like, love to go out every weekend and buy little things. Like, that's just something that makes me happy. They were talking about— I don't remember what it was— invest— like, the way you spend has to do with your values. Like, that part I really loved, because if you think about like what's really important to you, and you should budget for those things. Like for someone it might be an experience or it could be charity. I like that they made that list of like what their values were and see where they intersect and see where they diverge. Um, that was like the big takeaway I think from the book because our values are different. Like I, I like clothes, I like to look nice, so that's, that's where I spend my money. And we learned to keep separate fun money. Like, I have my fun money, I spend it on my stuff, so I don't ask permission, and vice versa.

When she spent $750 on cream, I literally laughed my ass off, and I was like, the fact that he laughed— I mean, $750.

My husband would not laugh even if I like said I just returned it. He'd be like, what?

You know, I would hope— I would hope that they are making a lot of money and that— I'm sorry, but maybe she deserves to spend $750 on herself. I don't know. I don't know their finances, but I was like, on cream?

Everyone has their reasons, right? But yeah. So for the listeners, if you listen to the audiobook. It's read by Kim and Penn, and we get some extra interaction and extra jokes and some jingles. And he had a great jingle about the $700 eye cream with the scammer at the mall in the kiosk that still had the old name of the old store. So that's probably partly why he laughed at it and she returned it, because it was preparation H for $700.

Oh my gosh. Crazy. So what would you ladies say was your favorite part of the book?

Sex and money.

Sex and money.

I think those are, uh, probably two main things that most couples fight over, especially money.

Exactly. Yeah.

Um, I think those are probably two of the biggest, um, and maybe not the most talked about.

And so it was kind of validating to hear you know, another couple. They— everyone's got the same problems. Everyone fights over sex and everyone fights over money, or, you know, has issues, deep-seated things, why they do things and why they feel that way. But it's, it's pretty universal that those are going to be the two biggest issues in any marriage at some point.

And I love that they say that. They say that every couple's fighting about similar stuff. I mean, they even write about that. I think that Even knowing that just makes it easier and makes you feel like you're not alone. Everybody's fighting about the same things and learning how to fight better.

Well, I do like, I do like how they normalize a lot of things. They— she knows his deep-seated issues, he knows her deep-seated issues with anxiety and the depression and the things that might trigger her, and he, he's, he knows what his role is, like the life the party and the person that's always going to want to make people feel good. And, you know, they know their— I guess they know their role, but they also are very conscientious of how the other person might be feeling. And I like how they're able to really honestly talk about things that other people wouldn't want to face or address, but also they normalize it for us because they really do have great deep consideration for each other. But also, you know, they kind of see what's coming down the pike and they are able to work harmoniously together, which not a lot of couples are able to achieve.

I mean, yeah, well, and I'm sure it took a lot of work. I mean, they— this is the whole point of the book, is this is what we've learned. And they had help, they had, you know, their pastor. Yes, guiding them along to these. That's— it's big. So it's good that they're sharing it.

That was the other really huge thing because, um, and they didn't— I don't know that they really addressed they obviously have a pastor and a very good strong relationship with Christopher, but not all of us have one of those types of friendships or relationships that we can go to someone who's willing to work with us.

Or a spouse who would go to somebody like that.

That's exactly correct. Not everyone's going to subscribe to that at all.

Right.

And I think that's a pretty genius aspect to put into your play. That not everyone has access to.

I also think that you, when you're reading the book and you're like, oh wow, they communicate so well and they grow from all their arguments and they look at things so interestingly, it's— they're also coming at it from like, I think they mentioned it like on when they talk on the podcast, like they're coming at it from a different point where you're going to discuss something differently when you're sharing it with public you know, the public than if you were just doing it in the privacy of your home. So you're going to probably afford your partner a little more grace and understanding than you might if it was just the two of you in a discussion. So sometimes it's, it's easier to kind of step back and see the big picture when, when you know everyone's watching and analyzing, and then you're kind of watching how you're behaving as well. I think you kind of check yourself a little more than you might if it was just like an argument at home.

And they're also doing a lot of meta-communicating, or meta—

what was it? Yes, meta-communication, right?

Because all these things that they're talking about in the book have already happened, so they're, they're like very enlightened to be able to discuss it at all. Um, so I think that's also very powerful. You know, they probably have many lessons that they've learned many times over, even if people have shared with them You know, if they've used those stories before, um, but just the being able to talk about it, I think is, is very powerful.

Well, and you both, you both brought up the fact that a lot of women are gonna relate to this when I say this is a lot of husbands do not wanna go to therapy with their wife, but if the wife works on stuff, it still benefits the marriage.

Mm-hmm.

Because I feel like even if I work on myself, it improves my marriage. So even though it's ideal to go to therapy together or to work on your marriage together, I don't think that that's 100% necessary. We can still have good progress without bringing them.

Well, and I think a big, big issue for a lot of people who are averse to therapy is that private things should be private. So they, they don't wanna open up to somebody else and feel like somebody else is telling them what to do. If you keep it within the relationship and, you know, you happen to be getting your, your information and your tools and your advice outside the relationship, that's, you know, neither here nor there, but you're at least sharing it and keeping the work between the two of you. It still can work.

Agree.

So, okay. So before we wrap up, what is your biggest takeaway that you're gonna take to your marriage? Oh, I said there's so many.

I said in the beginning, the one that, um, you know, don't place the blame about the accusing, just say like, I feel blah blah blah, versus the you did this or you did that.

I—

that's my biggest takeaway because it— that's totally me. That's the way I'm like, well, you did this and you did that. And so we come— always comes back to the sink drain.

I love that example. That's good.

I might not be scheduling sex days, but just the scheduling, like fitting in time for dates, for, you know, nights where we might spend some time together. Definitely. It's, it, it's not that I haven't thought about it, but it just kind of reinforces that that's sometimes just how you have to go about it, at least to get the ball rolling.

Yes, yes. What about Jamie?

Um, you know, I love communication. I think that anytime someone wants to engage, you have to be able to actively listen, to be willing to compromise and try and be accommodating. Um, you know, I just, I'm, I am interested in and wanting to communicate more. Um, but the big thing is, is that you know, there has to be a willingness to engage. And I know that sometimes that's hard to achieve. So continuing to say, I want, I need, and this is because—

because the— because very, very impactful.

I like that. That's a good word. I mean, I have so many takeaways. Like, I have lists of takeaways. I think one of the things that resonated with me when she— is when she was talking about— well, they were both talking about Penn's need for tennis and that she didn't understand why. And so they really had to talk about what's behind the need. Like, why is he doing this? Because I think for me, like, if we talk about conferences, like, I'll get pissed off and be like, you are not traveling again. Well, right. But understand him. Like, ask him questions about what do you, what do you get out of this? What is, why is this a need? I think sometimes I react and instead of just trying to understand him better. So that, that was really helpful for me.

I agree. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for talking about this book. Here's the book for everybody looking, everybody watching. I liked reading it, but I liked listening to it better. They are so fun to listen to.

Yeah.

I liked the jingles and I gotta say, I love a football guy. Go Bells! Unfortunately, 14 seconds. Gosh, gotta throw that in there.

You gotta throw that in there. Well, thank you for your time, ladies. This was so much fun to talk to you about the book.

Thank you.

Thank you for initiating. We love you.

Love you. This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.

Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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