The Whinypaluza Podcast with Rebecca Greene Episode 114 Include Me
In this episode of the Whiny Palooza podcast, host Rebecca Greene interviews Melinda Jenis, known locally as the “Include Me Lady,” founder of the nonprofit Pathways for Exceptional Children and author of the international bestseller Include Me. Drawing on over 20 years of experience advocating for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in education, business, and community settings, Melinda shares personal stories, practical strategies, and systemic critiques. The conversation begins with a personal definition of inclusion as a subjective, essential human need, then moves to how individuals can empower themselves by internalizing inclusion rather than waiting for external validation. Melinda identifies fear and ignorance as primary drivers of exclusion, illustrating both with anecdotes about her son’s experiences in public spaces and schools. She critiques the hierarchical structure of the educational system—tracking, separate classrooms for gifted or disabled students, and resource scarcity—that perpetuates segregation. The dialogue highlights grassroots solutions: peer‑to‑peer mentoring programs, the “Buddy Bench” for playground inclusion, and leveraging children’s natural openness to teach each other. Melinda recounts a pivotal leadership moment when a soccer coach allowed her son to play, leading to a community‑wide inclusive sports program. She expands on a multifaceted, grassroots approach that moves beyond legal advocacy to building authentic friendships and collective action. Authenticity emerges as a core value; Melinda urges listeners to act from the heart, ask how they can help others feel included, and let inclusion snowball organically. The episode concludes with concrete resources—pathwayskids.org, uniteforinclusion.org, and the Include Me book on Amazon—inviting parents, educators, and community leaders to engage with the material and continue the inclusion journey.
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No need to whine, it's Whiny Palooza! Have some wine and join us on the Whiny Palooza podcast with Rebecca Green.
Welcome to the Whiny Palooza podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Green. I'm a wife, mother of 3, and licensed clinical social worker. I also have 3 fur babies at home too. My passion has always been to help children and their families. I always dreamed of being a wife and a mother. Parents are always learning through their struggles, failures, and successes and joys. I am no stranger to this wild ride of parenting, and I know behind every great parent lies a team of supportive friends and family. I want to be part of your support system. I want you to know that you are not alone. We are in this parenting world together. Join me every week for insightful discussions with experts on parenting and marriage, as well as other parents who have found the secret to successes in parenthood. You'll learn tips and tricks to make life with your family better than ever. I hope you will follow along with me while we dive into what it takes to achieve a happy family.
Hello everyone, this is Rebecca Greene for the Whiny Palooza podcast, and I am very excited today because I have Melinda Jenis with us today. Melinda, thank you so much for being here with me today.
Oh, it's an honor to be here, really.
I'm so excited to talk to you. You have such a great topic, and I want to tell everyone a little bit about you.
Okay.
Melinda is fondly known in her community as the Include Me Lady. She has over 20 years of leadership experience and a deep passion for diversity, equity, and inclusion in education business, and life. In 2002, because of her son with multiple disabilities, she founded a nonprofit called Pathways for Exceptional Children. She has worked tirelessly to implement sensitivity and inclusion training in schools, businesses, recreation, and community activities that have trained 5,000 people annually. That's amazing. Yeah, she also has a number one international bestseller in 8 countries across multiple categories called Include Me, which if you're watching this, I see her book right behind her.
Yes, it's my heart.
It sounds like an amazing book, and your topic is near and dear to my heart. I think we're going to teach people a lot of things today.
Mm-hmm.
So let's start with, can you define inclusion for us?
Well, I think one thing that I can say about inclusion is everybody needs it. Everybody yearns for it. It is as basic as the air we breathe. And, you know, the food we eat is the heart of the soul, really. Yes. And, but I think to say that there's an exact definition of it is, is there is none, because everybody has their own. And I have found this out time and time again, where I have my own definition of what inclusion means to me. But I can't impose that on someone else, I have to ask them, like my son, inclusion means something different for him, you know, some of the people I work with, it means something different. And so I'm always trying to find out what does it mean to you? And how can I become that for you? So I've, if I've learned anything about inclusion, it's that everybody has their own definition. And it's a hard thing to find it out, you know?
Yes. And to ask the question.
Yes.
That's such a good point. I mean, you know, my family is Jewish, so right now we don't feel very included.
Right.
So my daughter is always like, can we have an elf? Can we have a tree? She just wants to be included.
So my kids, uh, have— their father's Jewish and I'm not, and so they get both.
Oh, that's awesome.
So they're, you know, they're included in everything when it comes down to these holidays, so they're happy.
That sounds perfect.
I, I do get it, and I do, you know, because my, my, uh, you know, my children's father is Jewish, and, uh, he, he loved it when he could finally celebrate Christmas.
Yeah, for sure. My daughter's like, I'm gonna marry a Christian man so that I can celebrate Christmas. You are so funny. So tell us, how can we empower ourselves to be more inclusive?
I love this question because I think the answer is in the question. Hmm. How can we empower ourselves? You have to empower yourself. And if I found out anything about inclusion, it was that I was waiting for everybody else to include me. I was thinking that it was something I had to find external to myself. That if people would just include me, I'd feel better. You know, if, if I went out and I wore the right clothing, or if I looked, you know, if I looked in the mirror and I saw, oh, I got a few wrinkles up here, if I had a little less wrinkles, I'd feel more included, you know. And it was always external. And what I started to figure out was that inclusion is within me. And that if I can find it within me, I couldn't give what I don't have. And especially when I was out there trying to advocate for the disabled, as far as the non-disabled including us, I would still be waiting, you know, if I wanted them to include us. And I didn't need their permission to be included. I didn't wait for them. We could, you know, we could create our own inclusion. And we started to empower ourselves by creating our own programs and our own things that we were doing. And what was amazing about it was we started to create our own stuff, our own programs and our own things. And the non-disabled came to us to feel included.
Oh my goodness.
So, you know, don't wait. Don't wait for the outside, you know, that you have to accumulate everything, you have to be so wealthy, you have to be this. You don't have to be anything. Look in the mirror, look at who you are, and learn to include who you are first, you know, for whatever you are.
That answer feels so good. And I realize we do— we all wait for someone to invite us to something. Yes, we do. We all do it.
And I would say to the moms, you know, that had the children with disabilities that, you know, why are we waiting for them to include us? We deserve a seat at the table. And if they won't let us sit at their table, we'll create our own. And eventually we'll get them coming to ours. So I think it's just having that vision to create your own and empowering yourself. That's why I love that question.
So awesome.
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about exclusion. Why do you think people are choosing exclusion over inclusion? Let's talk about that.
I think there's two reasons that I see most, and one of them is fear. And when I brought my son out, my son has a lot of autistic features and things, was very different looking in some ways, did a lot of this and the flapping and, you know, did a lot of scripting to himself, talking to himself, things like that, did not have great speech, had a stroke on his left side. So there was a lot of things that were wrong. And when he walked out, people were just like, whoa, what is this? You know, what do I do? Do I say the right thing? And sometimes it's not that people don't want to include, it's just that they don't know what the first step is. Like, what do I say? What if I say the wrong thing? And, you know, sometimes it just takes, you know, kind of having empathy towards them and saying, listen, let me help you to help to learn to include my son and what we can do together collectively. And I think that that's one thing. I think the second thing is ignorance. You know, just the perception. People have certain perceptions that they've either grown up with, or they've always just had them in the back of their mind. And they, they just have never questioned it. They've just always accepted it. And even for myself, I've had to— I think the person that's learned the most about inclusion has been me. Because I've had to understand and evolve in my whole definition of inclusion and what it is to me first. But I do think that I've had to really change my concepts and perception of inclusion in order to include even my own son. You know?
Well, and I'm listening to you thinking, I don't even know that I would know the right questions to ask.
Mm-hmm.
Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, it's total ignorance. You don't know what to do. You don't know what to ask. You don't know how to act.
But you know, one thing that I find that people with special needs can appreciate is that, you know, and I think anybody that is different is just coming up and sitting down with them and saying, I don't know. Yes. I don't know. Can you help me understand? I want to be able to do this. And I want to be able to be inclusive, but I'm afraid to do the wrong thing. And I think being, you know, it's vulnerability. You know, you got to be vulnerable. And you've got to go up to somebody and say, I'm really not sure exactly what to do or what to ask. And I don't want to, you know, but those people who have had the courage to do that have become some of the people that I'm closest to.
It's such good advice, and it's a bravery. Being vulnerable is being, you know, being brave enough to do it, to ask the question, to sit down with someone.
Yes, absolutely.
Well, let's talk about the current system because it doesn't always foster inclusion. So, how does the current system foster exclusion?
In my book, I talk a lot about the educational system. And because that has been a place that I have worked heavily in, and also in businesses and everything, trying to get inclusion to happen within companies. And, you know, I think that in— when you look at school systems in and of themselves, they're hierarchies. And they always have been. And if you look at the high school level in particular, I work with high school students a lot, and you see the AP classes, and then you see, you know, the enriched, and then you see— and they're all separated into separate classrooms based upon their academics, which is such a narrow way to classify people anyway. And, and if you don't fit someplace in that very high, you're nobody. And, and grade level, even, you know, grade level is seen as not so good anymore. Developmentally, you're appropriate, but that's not good enough. And, and then if you were seen as disabled, you're separated into a completely different classroom, or sometimes into a separate school, and segregated completely away. And so here we are asking the educational systems to teach our children to be inclusive when they're anything but that. So I think that we need to start challenging our educational systems to be more inclusive. And, you know, to take a look at some of these things that we're doing. And I'm not against, you know, kids that are gifted and talented getting what they need or anything like that. It's just the perception that they're better. I have had children, second grade, second grade, who have a reading disability who come up to me and they'll say, Miss Melinda, I want to be a doctor, but I'm too stupid. In the second grade, you know, that we have taken away their vision to become whatever they want to because of their academic, you know. And, and to me, it's wrong, you know. If they're not good in sports, they can't play any sport now, you know. Yeah, it's not true.
It's, it's such good points. I mean, my son finds the educational system so frustrating and You know, I did too. He, um, you know, he's one of those kids who's bored out of his mind. Okay, we have— it's so hard to meet every child's needs.
It is.
And he's like, we need to break down the educational system and start over.
Well, one of the things I would really recommend too is, you know, some the school systems talk about how they, they don't have the resources. To do what they need to do and this and that and the other. The way that we run our organization is with children, and our greatest resources are our children. So, you know, why not use the resources in your classroom for— if kids are struggling, maybe another child could help, or they could help each other. And they don't all struggle with the same things. Kids have strengths in history, and some have strengths in math, and they help each other. And they're more than willing. I find that children sometimes can be more inclusive than adults. You know, and easier to work with.
Yes.
So our greatest resources are our children.
Such a good point. They're more open— they tend to be more open-minded, right?
Yes, definitely, definitely. Especially the next generation, I find, because they've been around it more too. Yeah, you know, when— I mean, I'm— I hate to say it, I'm 60 years old, but I— but we didn't have the disabled back then. There was no IDEA. There were no laws there. They weren't even considered educatable, so they weren't allowed to come to school. And, um, and so we didn't see them.
So we've come a long way.
We have, but we have a lot of work to do still. We still do in every area, and it's inclusion of everyone, you know.
Yes. I, I wouldn't want to be a teacher. I've talked to my kids about this because you have a room of 26 kids and all 26 have different needs. I mean, that just stresses me out saying it out loud.
And my daughter is a teacher, she's an English teacher.
Oh geez.
And half of her classrooms— and I think she has 2 classrooms that have children with special needs in them— and half of them have special needs, and every one of them has a different, you know, educational plan that she has to follow. And it's just, it drives her crazy because she tries so hard, and it's not easy.
No, it sounds like such a hard job.
It really does.
I give so much credit to teachers, especially, especially these last 2 years.
Oh, I'm— my heart goes out to them because we've even tried so hard with our classes and everything. We had to convert to all virtual, and we had children with disabilities, and we— you name it, we had it. And it was just— we did it. But it was hard.
It's hard enough in person.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, much less. So tell us how we can become a leader in inclusion.
What can we do? Well, there's, there's two things. And I'm going to tell you one of my favorite stories is, he's one of my favorite people. But when my son was 4, it was the first time I took him out to play soccer. And this is in the first chapter of my book. And I talked about how we went down to the field. And we walked onto the field, he was so excited. And he was not very verbal at that point. But you could just see his eyes were just lighting up as soon as he saw the other kids, you know. And the coach came running over to us. And he said, no, no, no, no, no, you cannot play here. You need to go play with Special Olympics. You know, this was 20 years ago. But you, you know, he doesn't belong here, he could get hurt, whatever. And you need to take him someplace else. And I, you know, there was nobody on that field that stood up for him. Nobody, you know, they all just kind of stood there. And I picked up my son and just, you know, have you ever seen somebody that is so brokenhearted, they can't cry? The tears just flow. And that's what my son was. And I picked him up and I carried him over. And I was just like, my heart was just crushed. And I just was like, how am I going to tell him that this is what he's facing the rest of his life? And I walked over and I saw this guy with the middle school team. And I walked over and I said to him, You know, can you please, 5 minutes, just put him on the field with the older kids, let him play with them just 5 minutes. And he looked at me like, boom, he stepped right in. And, you know, he stood up for my son. And it was almost like, you know, the rest of the kids understood it. They came over, they brought him out on the field, they played with him for about 5 minutes, they let him make a goal. And I mean, you saw tears of just absolute destruction turn into elation. And it was just because somebody treated him like he was somebody, you know. And that's all he wanted was just to validate me as a person. Yes, I'm different. I can't do what you do, but I want to be validated. And this man stood up. And he said, we will do the right thing. And then not only did he stop, he didn't stop there. He went one step further. He said to his son, and his son and he agreed that they had to start a soccer team for kids with special needs that was inclusive. And do you know that for 19 years, this man has taught soccer for Pathways for Exceptional Children, and has impacted thousands of people. And we didn't know what we were doing. We had no clue what we were doing. But he had the courage to step out. So he stepped out, took the risk. But he also stood up. And I think that's leadership, stepping out and stepping up. And this man did it. And 19 years, like, you know, a couple of weeks, he and I are going to start another soccer team. And it's for kids of all abilities that are playing together. He has done that. And I think that's leadership. It doesn't have to be big. You don't have to be a leader of a country. You know, it could be in your own community. But what he did impacted thousands of kids, and he's taught so many people to be inclusive.
That is like the most beautiful story.
I just— oh, but that to me is leadership, you know, from the heart.
We don't realize the huge difference that we can each make.
Yes. And it's really not hard. You know what he did? Yes, it was work. But he had such an impact on like, we have 13 sports that we do every year now, in large part due to him, who he went out and recruited other coaches and, you know, basketball and other things and was like, come on, you got to help me do this. We got to get inclusive. And he started a whole thing, you know, for kids that was inclusive of all children.
Well, I don't know this man, but I love him.
Yeah, isn't he one? And you know what, I love him. He's on our board of trustees. He just, he's an amazing person. He really is. But without him, I don't know that I would have taken the first step. He gave me that first idea that we could do something for ourselves to be included.
Oh my gosh. Yeah. I'm touched. I'm so moved by that story. You talk about multifaceted approaches to inclusion. And I have no idea what that means. So can you explain that to us? I know.
It's, it's a little bit, you know, like multifaceted, it's a little bit different. One of the things that touched me, I am in love with Martin Luther King, always have been, I've read everything I get my hands on, he's like my hero. And one of the things that he said that touched me, because when I first started out leading inclusion, I was more legally based, I was an advocate for law. And I read something that he wrote, that he said, I want to be the white man's brother. Not his brother-in-law. And I thought to myself, you know what, that's exactly what I want. I don't want to have to have people accept us because they have to. I want them to be our friends because they want to. And I— it completely changed my approach. So it kind of went from, you know, here I was, this double-edged sword lady that yelled at the Board of Education and was up there, you know, just, you know, ranting and raving, you know, to a person that was like, I want to be that person that I want you to include me because you want to, and I want you to have my son here. And so empathy started to grow. And I think instead of, you know, doing all the protests— and protests are really important, but then what after? What happens afterwards? We all go home, and, and it doesn't continue. And we need to have that grassroots approach. When we take a look at minorities overall, when I look at, you know, I mean, I was on Wall Street 30 years ago. And back then, it wasn't just a glass, you know, a glass ceiling, it was a brick wall for women. And, you know, so I know what it means to be excluded and to feel that too. And yet, how come some of the minorities can't just come together on some of the bigger approaches like employment? Instead of segregating into our own little things, and each one of us hitting one thing at a time, why don't we all come together for employment, equal access to employment, helping employers to become more inclusive on all sides, not just for our own individual thing. And I think that if we united more for our causes for inclusion, that we would get a lot more done instead of dividing and then trying to conquer in our own little ways. I think to come together in a multifaceted approach, more grassroots efforts, more things that we can do in order to help people to learn to include us because they want to. Not because we're forcing them.
Yes, and I think that we've made headway. I think that it's— I think it's coming along. I think we have, you know, like we said before, we have so far to go, but from 20 years ago, 30 years ago, I hope we've come a long way.
We really have, really have a long— you know, we have more to go, but I think that we've done a lot. And, you know, I have to give credit to people before us that have done so much, you know, to the Martin Luther Kings, you know, to the, you know, Ruth Bader Ginsburgs, to all of those people who have done so much before us that have made what we do possible because they took those steps, you know.
It's true. It's true. I know. It goes back to— and this is the only way that I can relate. This is why it comes up, but I remember in high school my friend saying, "We have to get the Christmas tree out of the school." And I said, "No, we need to add. We need to add. Let's come together. Let's do everything. Let's decorate everything." Right.
And do it in multiple ways so that everyone can have a piece of who they are there.
Yes. Yes.
Absolutely.
You taught, you touched on this, and I think it's so important, so I want to go back to it. You talk about children teaching children as a model to promote inclusion, right? Can you tell us more about that?
Well, I actually have to give my son credit for this because he taught me this one. I am a physical therapist by trade, and, uh, so my son was trying to learn how to ride a bicycle, and having had a stroke and just multiple disabilities, he had a lot of difficulty with this. So I had everything ready. I mean, I had a bike, I had, you know, one of those bars on the back, man. I had everything. I was ready to go. We walked out to the cul-de-sac and he got on it and I started kind of pushing him around. And pretty soon he got off and he sat on the curb and he didn't want to do it. And he gave up and he was just like, this is not what he wanted. And there was a 12-year-old little boy that was sitting, our neighbor, and he was kind of laughing. And I said to him, listen, smarty pants, if you think you could do any better, you get over here because he's not doing it for me. Within 30 minutes, my son was riding a bike with the training wheels, with everything else. And that afternoon he was out riding with the kids in the neighborhood very slowly, but all the kids were keeping up, you know, was— were slowing down with them. And what he wanted was not just to ride a bike, he wanted to ride a bike with the kids. Not, you know, that's why he wanted to ride a bike. It wasn't with me, it wasn't with you, with this physical therapist, you know. It was like, I don't want my mom, you know, of all the people, I want kids. Yes, you know, well, I learned that and I saw that and I was like, oh my God, this is the way to go. And so we started the mentor program and we trained the children, we formally trained them to work with children of all abilities. And we started this whole program with mentoring. And it worked on both sides. You know, Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that, that, you know, stand up for what you believe in what you care about, but bring people with you. And what I saw was, you know, we did this mentor program, kids needed community service, they also needed to feel needed. They needed to feel included. And we took our kids, we put them all together, and it just seemed like it was made in heaven. They all were fine with each other, and they learned from each other. And it was just absolutely incredible to see the changes in children. One of the things that we did was, you know, some of these children never had had a playdate. My son never had had a playdate. And he saw my daughter going in and out. She was very social, and he saw her leaving. And again, the tears, you know, and I was like, Jake, what's wrong with you? He says, nobody wants Jakey. And I was just like, oh, and I had never realized that. I had always like, well, he has disabilities and kids, you know, he's just not going to do this. And I had accepted that and I didn't understand the destruction it was doing to him. And so we started from that mentor program, we started something called the Home Based Buddies Program. And we got mentors to actually go into the homes of some of these children and be their buddies. And my son, I cannot tell you, he would wait for these kids jumping up and down. Oh, they're coming, they're coming. And he'd wait in the driveway. And he, you know, he'd get so excited. You, you take that for granted, you know, for so many of your other children, because they just have— it's natural. But for somebody like him, it wasn't natural. And I just saw the meaning of what other children had in his life. And that's why the mentor program and the Children Teaching Children became so popular. Because it really truly was the way that the kids really got to know each other. And I have to say that so many of the kids, you just didn't see the stuff that you would see in adults as far as the exclusion going on. I believe it. Mm-hmm. It was just so much better.
I just am feeling so bad with the stuff that we take for granted. I mean, we don't think, we don't think about it.
No.
You know, my, my daughter was in third grade I'm kicking myself right now. And one of the moms said to me, I can see my daughter having a playdate with Ella. And you know, her daughter has disabilities. And I said, oh yes, for sure. Well, do you think that we ever made that happen? I mean, 4 or 5, 6, here I am 4 years later going, oh my God, you're so— I just, it went right over my head. Right. We never pursued it. I mean, so everybody listening, I mean, that's a way we can make a difference right there.
It's just, and it's so simple. So simple, you know, there's some kids that got something started in one of our grade schools where some of the kids were, you know, and this wasn't just kids with disabilities, but they were very shy, or they were just kind of not, you know, engaging and were just not doing well. And they got this, this bench that they, they called it the Buddy's Bench, and they put it out into the playground. And if somebody was not feeling like they were included, they would sit in the bench. And then everybody knew that they were to go over and to help that person. And that, you know, just something simple like that made such a difference in the lives of children, just to be able to say, can't we, you know, you could always do something to include somebody. I always say that to the kids, you can always do something, no matter how small it is, you can do something.
You know, my youngest struggles in some of the subjects that school. You know, we're talking about all the honors students, you know, my son's telling me he's bored, my daughter's telling me she's challenged. Well, she may be challenged in school, but she's going to notice the kid who is upset on the playground.
You know what I mean?
We all have our strengths and challenges.
Absolutely. And, you know, there again, it's not just the academic that is, you know, I know it was very hard for me as a mother, and I know many people who have children with disabilities can relate to this. When I found out my son had disabilities. It was very difficult for me because, you know, I had dreams for him that he was going to own this house, he was going to be, you know, this doctor or lawyer or something, you know. And here, probably he was going to have difficulty even becoming employed. And the dreams that I had had for him weren't going to work out the way that I did. And I started to see my own viewpoints as far as the supremacy that I had, that, you know, I could do, you know, I would jump in and do things for him because I thought I could do it better than he could, and all this kind of stuff. And he has just taught me so much about that. You don't have to have any of that, you know, to be a person that is, is somebody of value. And there's, I have to say, there's, you know, just almost nobody that has taught me more about inclusion, about life than he has. And my, my life has been eternally gifted as a result of him being in it. I wouldn't have it any other way. Now.
That's so beautiful. I mean, we have to we have to change with things, you know. It's like we have these visions and these ideas, and, and, you know, I— what is the expression of when we have plans? There's some expression that when we have plans, God laughs at us, right?
Right. And, and that happens all the time.
I know, I know.
But I generally find out the plans that have been made for me are better.
Yeah. Oh my gosh, yes. And we don't know what's ahead for us.
Don't know at the time. Not— are not happy at the time, but they, they do come back and are probably more helpful than anything in the end. Oh my God. So that's for sure.
Well, and you were supposed to make a difference with him because it sounds like, I mean, you know, you've done, you've had so many successes. Can you tell us about some challenges that you have had along the way?
Some of the challenges, there's been many. I think every day is a challenge because it's hard. I think some of the biggest challenges that we've had is taking 2 steps forward and 3 steps back.
Yes.
And, you know, as an advocate or something, you will get somebody and you'll put all this effort into changing a superintendent of a school or a principal or, you know, even the president, you know, of the United States, and then somebody else will come in and you start all the way over again.
My gosh, I never thought of that.
And it's just like, you know, we, we had my son we had worked so long trying to get him to play on the high school football team. And they finally— he got on, and it was limited. They had him out there for about 10 seconds once a year, and he would come out and he would play, and everybody would go nuts— cheerleaders, everybody. And he'd be running, you know, a couple yards to get the ball, and he— but it meant something to him to just have that time. And there was a new coach that came up. He was playing for 3 years. It was a new coach that had come up, and he decided that he wasn't going to do that anymore, that Jacob could only play in scrimmages, but he couldn't play in real games anymore. And so for his last year, his 4th year, he wouldn't allow him to play. And it broke his heart, you know, because he was just— and it broke mine. But it was, it was something that, you know, again, that change in one coach made the difference that, you know, just Nobody understood it. But it was accepted by everybody that was a part of that school district. And he wasn't able to play. And I think those are the hard things that you finally get someplace. And then somebody comes along and says, no, not for me, you're not doing that anymore. Those are the heartbreaks.
Oh, that's so sad.
Yeah, those are the heartbreaks that, you know, you even, you know, with the different presidents that we've had and the different Supreme Court justices, and you worry, about stuff like that every time changes like that happen.
I know, I know. We— I don't, I don't like when things change because you don't know what's coming. I was like, oh gosh, another new principal.
Oh man. And, and that, you know, new teacher, new everything. It just makes such a difference. And it depends upon that person's— even a new employer, a new manager that comes in can sometimes be— even though a company has a certain policy towards inclusion, that person can come in with a completely different interpretation and it can just blow your mind. So I think that two steps forward, three steps back can be the hard part. I can totally see that.
I keep trying to tell myself that these new principals are going to have awesome ideas and it's going to be even better, but you know, because I get attached— not always— I get attached to the old principals and then they leave.
Yes, I'm the same way. I get very attached to them, and then when they retire—
because I've been—
we're coming up on 20 years in January. We'll be here 20 years, uh, Pathways for Exceptional Children. So I've outlasted almost everybody. Wow. And most people have retired, and it's just, you know, you see these new people come in and you're just kind of, please, you know, help me, don't hurt me.
Oh God, I understand so much. Tell everyone about your awesome book.
Well, the book really is a story about me and the journey that I've had towards inclusion. And like I said, the hardest person I've ever had to change has been me. Because, you know, you really have to be honest with how you view yourself and who you are. And, you know, just the inclusion. One of the biggest stories that happened to me was a mentor who actually came up to me and we had wanted inclusion was completely what our mission was about. And my mentor came up to me and she said, you know, Melinda, I don't I don't know what you're doing, but you're saying inclusion, and yet your mission has kids with disabilities in it. So where do I fit in? And I was like, oh God, I didn't even think of that. And no wonder kids without disabilities weren't coming to our programs because we had put a label that said we were for disability. And once we got rid of that, and then we put kids of all abilities, it was amazing to see the doors start to open. And people come in. We had created our own barrier, but we didn't know it. And I think that that was kind of what this book is about, is the journey of the changes I've had to make and what I've learned from other people.
Well, it sounds beautiful. I— we all need to go read that.
I hope you do. It definitely is my heart.
Tell us what else you would like to share that I didn't think to you?
Well, I think almost everything that I've said, if I could leave one word with people, it would be authenticity. Because I really believe, and I've worked with so many children, and I think that that is truly what they're looking for now. They're kind of tired of all the rigmaroles and the, you know, having to get ACTs and good ACTs and SATs and GPAs and, you know, all that junk. They don't want to be a number anymore. They don't want to be they want to be who they are, and they want to authentically be included for who they are. And if I could leave anything with anybody, it would be whatever you do, do it authentically. You know, do it with your heart. Think about what you're doing with somebody. And like I said, asking those questions about what can I do to help you feel included? You know, what can I do to, to help you to make things easier for your life? What can I do to serve you? And I think that if I could leave anything with people, when you have inclusion and you have that authentic inclusion, it's just, is an amazing thing. And it takes off by itself. It's like a little snowball. You know, it just keeps gaining momentum. You know, it doesn't need a whole lot to get it going. It just needs somebody to start it.
Well, and I appreciate you giving me the words because I think I didn't know what to say. I think I still— I think that through the years I could have said a lot more.
Yeah, well, we all can, but you know what, you, you start it now. Yes. And, um, and you know, Rebecca, what I, I think that you do such a service. We were talking about this before the show started. I, I love what you do for women, and just the topics that you talk about are so authentic to us, you know, just as moms, the things that we struggle with from day to day. And when you said, you know, in part of your stuff that, you know, I'm here so that you don't have to feel lonely. And I just thought, you know, just that alone. And, and, you know, I almost feel like when I listen to your podcast sometimes that we're sitting here having a cup of coffee together, you know, it's just, you, you do make me feel that way. And you do a great job with women. And I, I want to thank you for what you do because what you do changes lives.
Oh my goodness, thank you so much. You're going to make me cry over here.
Well, you're gonna make me cry too, but you know what I have to say, it's It's whatever we can do to help the person next to us.
Yes, 100%, totally agree. And you're doing so much to help people, and this is such a needed topic. And I want you to tell everyone where they can find you.
Well, Pathways for Exceptional Children, it's pathwayskids.org for the children aspect of it. That has everything, really. That website has everything you need. It's got training for parents that have children with disabilities. It also has something called Unite for Inclusion which is something that we're trying to do to get everyone to unite together and getting rid of all of our labels and just everything and just taking who we are as people and coming together and understanding that inclusion starts with people. Yes. And, and, and not with, you know, what's on the outside, but what's on the inside. And so Unite for Inclusion is another really good place to come. It's got training, free training about inclusion, and it's a great place to go. And that's uniteforinclusion.org. But pathwayskids.org has everything.
Where can they find your book?
The book is on Amazon.
Okay.
And they can find it there, or they can also find it on our website, the pathwayskids.org. It's there also, and it'll take them right to Amazon. But definitely read it, um, write comments on it, let me know how you feel, because I always learn more from, I think, the people that read it than I did from writing it, because I learn about their perspectives. So whatever you have to say, I've got an ear to listen, let me tell you.
That's awesome. Well, I have absolutely loved talking to you today.
Thank you for having me.
This has been wonderful, and I just want to thank you for your time and your expertise.
Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for what you do, Rebecca. What you do is, is important to all of us.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
This is Rebecca Green reminding everyone to spend every day laughing, learning, and loving.
Thank you for tuning in to the Winey Palooza podcast. If you like what you heard, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. While you are there, leave a review. I love to hear your feedback. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.
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