S2 EP 11 Parents, Education, and Autism with Cheryl Pankhurst

Hello everybody, and welcome to the Parent Whisperer podcast. I'm Richard Ramos, your host, and today I'm excited to have a special guest. Her name is Cheryl Pankhurst, and I met her— I don't know, I guess it's been a few months ago. And she was gracious enough to have me on her podcast, but I wouldn't want to introduce her to you. Cheryl Pankhurst is a speaker, bestselling author, educational strategist, and family advocate, and the founder of Insight to Impact. With over 25 years as an OCT-certified educator in special education, She helps parents of teens navigate school systems, understand diagnosis, and advocate confidently with IEPs and high school transitions. You're going to have to explain what all these alphabets are. She is also the host of Parenting Teens: Advice Redefined for Today's World, a podcast that brings the real, often unspoken challenges of raising teens into the open. Offering honest conversations and practical strategies parents can actually use. Cheryl, welcome to the program.

Thank you, Richard. I'm so excited to be here. Nice to chat with you again.

Yeah, it's really good to see you again. I forget, I don't know how long it's been that we met, but it seems like time is just flying by. And at the time I told you that My podcast, I was just doing audio, but that I wanted to progress to where we're at today. So you're my second guest this year.

Yes. Oh, I'm honored. I'm so excited. I'm glad you got this off the ground. You have lots to share.

So, Cheryl, start by— I mean, you do so many things, and as I read in your bio, but start by just kind of giving us a feel for, you know, your background and kind of how you got started and into the Uh, work that you're doing now?

Yeah, I spent 25 years supporting kids with very significant needs in high school, from learning disability to very severe element of autism, and just loved it. Was my jam, 100%. Amazing. And it's funny, I didn't realize until not that long ago that I made this change, this really significant change around my career when 2020 hit, like literally a month after the pandemic hit, because my job at the time was very much crisis management in person, putting out fires, and I loved it. And then, you know, the Google Classroom and online education started very quickly, and my kids— I call them all my kids. Had no interest in getting on a Google Chromebook with me and talking about math questions. So my job turned very, very different. And so I switched into a different not a different career, but into a private school. I got an idea of what that system was like. But I really there's a common thread there, and that is there's parents out there who number one are dealing with these. Major teen challenges, and it is all new uncharted territory for us. You know, when our kids were young, it was about curfews and video games, and now it's an onslaught of social media and, and 24/7 access to external input and so many things that as parents we have no idea how to navigate. So the podcast was one of those reasons where we could sit down and parents don't feel alone. And it also allowed me to take an early retirement because being in a system, there's a lot of wonderful things about the public school system and private school system, and there are things that need to be disrupted. And you can't disrupt anything when you're still working for the system. So it was time for me to get out and take everything that I knew, everything that I saw that I think was a problem. And a big one of that was that parents just don't No, they don't understand what's happening right now, and not in an unintelligent way. It's just uncharted territory, like I said. Or they feel like they, you know, have kids that just get this diagnosis, really struggling in school, and they don't know what to ask for, what their rights are, what the fine line is between younger grades and high school and cutting the cord. So long story short, that's where my advocacy program comes in. And consulting and the podcast, which has been going on, I guess, about 2 years now. And it's the joy of my life because I get to meet people like you and we get to have amazing conversations.

Yeah, likewise. Likewise. So it's, it's, it is amazing when we were younger and we were kids and it was pretty much kids could depend on their parents to be more knowledgeable Of what they were learning in school and just things like you mentioned. There's so many things in life going on, but it seems like parents could be helpful as opposed to what you described. And I've run into as well the ignorance. Again, it's not because of a lack of, of wanting to know or—

Oh.

Or— but part of it is just so busy, busy, busy, busy the way life is.

Yeah.

Much faster now, but also just the things that are in the world with AI and digital, the world we live in, and a lot of parents are not accustomed. How have you found that?

Yeah, it's an onslaught of information. And I find that there's a couple of layers to this. And I think if parents can kind of shift their perspective around, and I was the worst when my kids were young. I was like the Google monster. I didn't— I never said to my kids, oh, I don't know, let's figure this out. No, no, I'm the mom. I needed to have all the answers. So wrong. And so now I think if parents can kind of let down that guard, because I think it is, you know, instinctive to be that way, and say, you know what, I actually have no idea. Let's figure this out together.

Yeah.

And that way, They feel very empowered and you are now vulnerable and you're teaching them vulnerability. Like, it's okay to say, I have no fricking idea what this shit is, right? But let's talk about it together. Let's figure it out together. So we're getting the same information. And now your kids, if you're silent, your kids are going somewhere for information.

That's right.

You want them to get it with you or from somewhere else?

Yeah.

And I, and I find too, I, I've been noticing this a lot lately as I'm in a lot of these parent Facebook groups, which I think are fantastic for people who are like looking for a great place for March break or, you know, what's the best thing to get my 18-year-old for a birthday. But I'm finding that parents are asking really deep questions to a whole group of people they've never met. Have no idea what their values are. Have no idea, and they're asking questions like, "Oh, how old was your daughter when they had a sleepover with their boyfriend?" And I just, I can't even participate in it anymore. I'm just like, "Oh, I can't." Because what, what are you asking? You're asking, or when they started to drink in your home, or you're not standing steadfast in your own values. You're relying on complete strangers. You have No idea who you're asking to get a vote to either validate your answer or to give you some kind of credibility. See, this is what they did. Or because you're too— sorry— chicken to parent in your own values.

Yeah.

I think that's so important when you go through these groups. I can't, Richard, I can't even look anymore. I'm like, I need to create my own different community because I can't.

What would you say the age group round figure? What, what these that are asking really for their values from an online group of people that they really don't know that well? What is it? Just range all over the place? Or is it—

I would say 15 to 18, 19.

And you know, that makes sense to me.

It scares me. It scares me because I think, you know, and Here's the long-term effect. When you make a decision with your kid based on someone else, you can't stay steadfast in that decision. You're gonna waffle all over the place because you don't have internally— your kid's gonna know, oh my God, I could change her mind on this one. She has no idea what she's talking about. Well, yes, because, you know, like we waffle, but if we're like, no, this is how our family works.

Right.

And you don't have to like it, but this is how our family works.

Right.

That's just the way. And if you— if that's a value you hold tight, you come across with the energy that this is the value and this is the standard the family holds.

Yeah, I've been speaking a lot about that, the family values. And as you mentioned earlier, together going online if we're going to learn about something, or parents being curious. What is your kid into? Rather than shaming them or, you know, trying to get them off it, be curious about it and, you know, learn what they're learning. But this thing about values, yeah, I keep trying to emphasize to parents that if we're not, you know, living and teaching and insisting on the values that we have, then they're going to learn it from somewhere else.

That's right.

And it's not that we're trying to force Obviously, you know, our children, when they get older, they gotta make up their own mind. But at least when they're smaller, I'm— we're talking about that you're inculcating them, you're, you know, indoctrinating them. This is what we hold dear. This is what we believe.

Yeah.

But of course, most of all, that we're actually living it, you know, so there's not a, you know, one, one person in public and another person privately.

Yeah.

But I totally agree with that. It's so important. Let me— I want to ask you this too. When you're working with parents, have you found any barriers of trust? You know, do they really receive from you or is there pushback or, you know, what have you found that way as far as their openness to receiving whatever counsel or whatever advice you're giving them?

Well, I think by the time they come to me, they are open to something. And in my first call with parents, sometimes it is not a fit and that's okay. But it's me really trying to assess what is your goal here? Like, what is it you actually want? What are you looking for your kid and yourself? And I think you can get some, you kind of get the side glance when you say, well, it's actually, it's not them, it's you. And you know, you get that little bit of a side glance, but then when you understand that that's actually where the magic happens because we as parents have control. Control into saying, oh, okay, maybe it is me, and I can change that. Can't change our kids; we can guide them, we can coach them, we can instill values, but can't change them. But we can change the lens through which we look through when we're parenting, and even little things like why am I constantly yelling at this kid? Like, and then I go to bed and think, oh my God, I shouldn't have yelled. What was I yelling? And then you get up the next morning and. It's, you know, 50 First Dates. You're yelling again. But if you're— if you can go back and say, hey, like, something triggered me here, and a sock on the floor should not be collaborative with the outburst I had.

Yeah.

When we can go back and say, well, you know, do you think maybe— like, for me, I yelled at the kids when they were young, and I started realizing it's because I didn't feel like I had a voice at home. When I was little, I wasn't. So now it's like, wait a minute, I'm the big person now. I get the voice and you're still not listening to me. Oh, that's not acceptable.

Right.

So I, you know, I'm in the same place as other parents where it's like sometimes we just need to put a different lens on, shift things, and find out what's triggering us.

Yeah, I think that's such an important thing. And of course, in Parents on a Mission, we emphasize it's really all about, you know, us as parents. And as I've said, you know, most parenting classes are trying to teach the parent how to fix their kids, and Parents on a Mission is about helping us deal with ourselves, fix ourselves, heal ourselves, help ourselves. Because so many of us raised in different ways, maybe traumatic experience, domestic violence or divorce, or just things that, you know, we went through in those days, and then we bring that to the parenting, our parenting, and then that doesn't always work out so well because we got all this junk that we need to deal with. So you're right. I mean, parents, if they can make that shift, that's an important, important step in growth.

Yeah. And give yourself grace. There's like, parents do everything they can with love and good intention. We understand that. There's never a judgment or a shame when we talk about this. We've all been there.

Yeah.

So that, I think that is a first step. It's like, oh, this is what I did. Okay, I can forgive myself. There's obviously something else there. Give myself some grace and then take the next step forward instead of staying in the vortex, cuz that's not helpful.

Yeah, it's important to be kind to ourselves, you know, and we're gonna make mistakes. You know, I've made more than I wanna admit. But the thing is, is learning, you know, learning from them. I wanted you also, Cheryl, in your bio here. Explain what you mean, or for maybe some that don't know what OCT certified— what does that entail?

Yeah, it just lets people know that I am a certified teacher. Like, I have taught in high school as a— in the College of Teachers. Some people are like instructors, and, you know, it comes with a certain credibility that I had boots on the ground in the field. So that's what that is.

Yeah. And the IEPs?

That's an individual education plan. So what happens is when a student gets a diagnosis, then we take this diagnosis, this assessment, and we create a support plan that's individualized for the student. And they have it in the US and Canada. I think US is like a 504 plan. In Canada, it's IPRCs, a review placement, and then IEP. So it's just a— it's an individual plan that goes with the kid and changes all the time depending on the supports they need or strengths they build, right?

And, and how, how, and how aware and/or involved are parents in that individual plan, if at all?

You know, it's in the elementary grades, you know, grade 1 to 8, I feel like they get way more involved, which is great. And I think there's this fine line between, well, it's grade 9 now, they gotta learn. They get, but we don't do that transition. We just like, oh, I cut the cord. See you later. And I think transitions for kids, especially those with a diagnosis, are very important. It's very repetitive. But if we can be proactive in that transition from grade 8 to grade high school, from high school to university, college, we are really proactively setting them up to learn how to advocate for themselves eventually where you can cut the cord.

Yeah.

But it is a slow process. And, you know, if parents can kind of take on the, like, yes, you're parenting. Yes, you're making the rules. But in the case of kids and their education, can we now be more of a coach?

Yeah.

And allow the kid to be the star quarterback. But we're here. We're here to help you with the plays. We're here if you, you know, screw up and drop the ball. We're here. But we're not here to fix it.

Right.

We're here to help you.

Right.

Fix it yourself. How do you, how do you think, where do you think it went wrong? How do you think you fell off here? And I got your back, but we do this together. And then eventually the kid doesn't need you anymore, which is great. But it's, it's advocating with your kid as opposed to for your kid once you get into the higher grades. And it's such a skill. Skill to give them.

Now, you mentioned earlier that there's some good things with public schools and private schools, but there's also some things that need to be fixed or changed. What would you— what are those things, and how would you advise parents as far as their relation or knowledge of what's going on in the public schools or private schools?

I think, you know, in the public school system, and there are It's a wonderful system, but there are some things that get, you know, very political in the upper, you know, in the board. And so there becomes this whole buzzword situation. So new people come in and it probably works like this politically too, but I don't know the politics, but people, new people come into the board and this is the buzzword and we're changing everything and this is what's going to happen. And it goes for 5 years. For the length of the stay that administrator has, and then it switches, and then they change all the buzzwords, and they, and they put all this money into it, and it just becomes the same thing. Fifty first dates where parents, you know, need to understand that it's all the same through line. It's all like it's different words and different language, but it's all the same through line. But you still have very much control over your kids' education. And it also involves, you know, I think a lot of parents just hang on to it and don't say anything and don't say anything and don't say anything. And then in May, their kid is failing, and now they're going to the president of the county. Like, they're just going to the top. I think being very proactive in your communication is very, very helpful. So when you're first getting into high school, you're first meeting teachers, It's a quick email. This is who I am. This is who my kid is. This is how they learn. And when you go to all the meetings, you go together. And it's also really important to say, what is your best, to the teacher, what is your best form of communication? I want something regular, whether it's once a week, every other week, an email, a phone call, set everything ahead of time.

Yeah.

So that you now have something in writing and, you know, teachers get busy. I get it. They get 30 kids, 25 of them might have an individual Education plan.

Right.

But if you're, if you're being proactive, you now, your kid is now on that teacher's radar, period. And if you set a precedent of, this is my expectation, it doesn't have to be a story. It's a Friday, end of the day, things went well this week, missing art assignment. Done. Now you're on top of things.

Yeah.

It's when you take a backseat and you wait for the teacher to communicate with you. Yeah, maybe they should be, but if they're not and you are just taking a stance, well, it's their job. It's the— your kid is the only one that suffers here.

Yeah. No, that's right. That's right.

Yeah. And then you're at home saying, I paid the taxes, they should be doing this. Be careful how you speak about the people who you are sending your kids to stay with for 6 hours of the day.

Yeah. Right.

You know, so I think there's a lot of language and a lot of, and I know parents can get fired up. That's where an advocate comes in. But they can get fired up and, and not like just get to the point where I don't know what to say, and then it's a blowup and then nothing can be repaired. Whereas if you're being proactive, if you're taking a stance, well, it's their job. It's just, well, essentially, no, it's your job first.

Right. That's right.

And do it with your kid. And if, you know, if a teacher messes up or misses out on communication, then you're there. Hey, listen, I thought we were gonna, Email every Friday. I'm sure it's busy, but can you just? And then you start the process again. Like it's it's not going to be perfect, and it's the same in private system. You know, in private system, there's a little difference in the fact that there it's a much smaller population. But it's you know it's the same. Like I said, it's the same common through line. Like communication, being proactive. And advocating with your kid and not for your kid is so valuable.

Yeah, it really is. And it's just up to the parent to be responsible and to use their authority as the parent to be in touch with and speak to and be engaged with what, what's going on in the education of their children. I think that's, you know, really, really important. Now, you've written books Should I say a book or books?

Just literally, just literally, I am, I collaborated in an anthology about autism. Autism Awareness Day is April 2nd, and those are the kids I worked with very closely. So a special place in my heart. So the book is Daring to Belong: Autism Stories of Connection and Community and, or sorry, Courage. And all the proceeds for the book are going back to autism, but it is It's always been my bucket list to write a book, and with time constraints and all of that, this was like, okay, I got my foot in the water. So it's really exciting. Oh, great.

So now, so there's— so you're saying this is just new for you? This is the newly published?

Yes. Yes. Official publish is April 2nd. It's out on Kindle now, but the official publish. Yeah.

So congratulations.

I've actually created on my podcast now an autism series, so there's gonna be 8 Guests related to autism or kids with autism for the next 8 episodes starting tomorrow.

And well, we'll make sure to include those. Now the show notes or the links that you gave me, will it have that reference to the book?

It'll have the links to the podcast. It should have a link to the book. And so as soon as you get a link to the podcast, you can't miss it.

Okay, great. Yeah, no, that's good. I should mention that Cheryl is in Canada. And she's Canadian. And so, uh, but I, but I believe where you tell me, Cheryl, the school systems are pretty much the same as—

I believe so. From, I mean, I talk to a lot of podcast guests who are from the US and it sounds very similar. There are some differences, but the underlying supporting your kid and with your kid and communicating with you, all of that is the same. Doesn't matter what country you're in.

Okay. Now, going back to your book, are there 1 or 2 or 3, you know, there's, I'm sure there'll be parents listening to this that may be dealing with autism. Any pearls of wisdom or points you want to make as far as what you've come across and what you've written?

Yeah. Well, my point, my part of the chapter is basically if they could, They would. And if they can't, it's not because they're choosing not to. And I think a lot of, you know, especially old school grandparents or old school teachers, you know, come up with this, oh, they're just pushing your buttons and they know how to manipulate and they're having a temper tantrum to get out of math. And they're so far off the truth when our kids are on the spectrum.

Picture it.

No 16-year-old kid wants to toss a desk in the classroom and be that center of attention. They just want to be, and in their words, normal.

Right.

So I think if we put a lens on when we see parents who are struggling with what looks like a temper tantrum in the store, instead of getting out your phone and taking a picture, you know, maybe say, this is just— can I help? You know, what can I do? Because it, it is somebody who, first of all, is doing this 24/7. But these kids are not having dysregulation because they choose to. It's because they can't function in the way that they're expected to. They know it, and this is their form of communication. And so if we can look beyond the behavior and realize—

Yeah.

That if they could, they would, but they can't. So we need to figure out what the can't is. It really changes how we support our kids and our families who work and live with our kids all the time.

Yeah, it's got to be so challenging, you know, and that just takes a lot for the parent to— for them to be, you know, helping themselves, working on themselves, because I can imagine— I don't know, I've never dealt with that, but it would be psychologically and physically and emotionally exhausting.

Yeah.

Because I think, you tell me again, it seems like it's just an ongoing situation. I don't know, is there times of, I don't know what the word is, just times of where they're not dealing with such a high level of care or, or this or that, you know, I don't know how it goes, but it just seems like it's so intense. Or am I not? Am I?

Is that— Yeah. Well, and we would only notice the intensity in the event of the intensity. So yes, at home. You know, parents do have the calm. They do have, you know, the storm and the calm. I think, but I think a lot of it too is our parents can feel very isolated. Those are the parents that drop the kids off at school and know they're gonna get a call. Come and get 'em. Come and get her. They couldn't handle it.

But yeah.

And so this is how they spend their day on the edge of their seat. Maybe they lose their jobs. Maybe they don't have a relationship anymore because this is their life. So, wow. I think when we You know, if we can't help another parent do that, we can at least have some empathy.

Yeah.

Instead of that, the whole judgment look that could come with that is hard. Yeah.

My son is in special education and he works with kids that are really challenged. And man, he has told me some stories of, like you said, they have to call the parents and again, and it's really sad, you know, but it is The reality, and at least they're, they're trying to provide education for these, you know, high-profile, high-needy kids. And it's really a challenge. So, and that's at school. So at home, I just think for the parents, since you and I are, you know, advocates for parents, just, you know, what resources there are for them. And so I think that your book will be one of those.

I hope so. Thank you. Yeah.

Now, on your podcast, Parenting Teens Advice Redefined for Today's World. What got you to start that, and what is, you know, what's the message that you're really wanting to get out to mom and dad?

Well, essentially, we can't parent the way we were parented. And like I said at the start, it's uncharted territory. So these are the conversations that I have experts come in and talk about AI, and we talk about screen addiction, and we talk about disordered eating and sextortion and things that our kids can be exposed to that we sometimes parents don't even know what to ask. They don't even know that this is a situation.

True.

And so if we are having these conversations and there's no filter on these conversations, like we just say whatever needs to be said because it needs to be brought out, you know, parents number one are not feeling alone. And number two, now they can start having these conversations at home wondering, Huh, is this happening in your school? Like, is this happening in your friend circle? And start learning how to have those open-ended, comfortable, safe conversations instead of, how was your day? Fine. What'd you do? Nothing. Okay, nothing's wrong. I'm out. You know, really learning how to communicate and reconnect with your kid, especially over topics that we just have no clue are even out there and what the risks are. From some of them. So we bring all that to the surface with experts like you and other experts that we talk to. And it's incredible. I think parents kind of going, oh my God, I had no fricking idea. Okay, now you do. And now you know how to talk about it. So it's great.

What, what are you seeing or what are you saying or what's the conversation around AI and parents?

You know, I just actually did an interview with one of the experts and he brought up an issue that kids are actually feeling a lot of guilt around this AI because they wanna use it, but then they don't wanna get caught cheating, but then they know, you know, and I thought, you know what, me too.

Right.

Because when AI first came out and I started this podcast, Oh, I thought this is interesting. And then I would have people say, oh, they just copy artists. That's terrible. It's copy infringement. They shouldn't be using it. And so I stopped. And then I thought, oh, oh, wait a minute. There's a lot of people are using this. So I was getting the proper prompts and really being able to use my voice, but just put it in a coherent, you know, space.

Right, right.

And for parents who have kids who are neurodivergent or ADHD, This is— this makes things very accessible because you can just put a whole brain dump in there of what you want to say and then just say, yeah, I just use my voice, use my words, just put this in a coherent style so my teacher can evaluate it. And then just makes it accessible. You have kids who don't even start things because they're so overwhelmed. Their executive functioning is gone. They can't finish a sentence because their brain is like, they know, They know like they know, like they know, but getting it on paper, they can't demonstrate that they know. So I feel like it, it also gives us some accessibility to disability as long as it's used properly. And because parents don't know about it, those are the conversations like, let's figure this out together because I don't freaking know either.

Right.

So yeah, there's curse and there's a blessing, right?

Yeah, it really, it really is. It's really challenging, you know, and it's just going to get More and more and more. I think the next version is called AGI, which a lot of people have a lot of reservation about— artificial generated intelligence. In other words, the machine is just— well, the machine, the computer is just teaching itself more. And ultimately, you don't need— I don't need you humans anymore. I don't need you to program me. I'm done with you. I've got what I need. And now I'm generating my own.

Oh, good God.

You know? And that's like the next version, which some of these, you know, tech— technocrat experts are saying is gonna get rolled out either this year or next year. And then it just goes on from there. So I'm— I am concerned about that and trying to both influence my grandkids now and my kids. My kids are all, you know, they're young adults, uh, to raise awareness. You know, I find it challenging Right now, because I don't think the public, and specifically parents— not all, obviously, not everybody, but many of them— as we're talking about education and their unawareness of what even goes on in the classroom and what's being taught and things like that, then you have artificial intelligence and the accessibility. Easy. Anybody can, you know, access it. And I find, yeah, I'm a little— I'm trying to find a way. And maybe you can help me, I don't know, to, to bridge that gap with parents to get them understanding like this is gonna be a, have a huge impact on so many areas of our, of our life and our children.

You know, I, and I just spoke to having an interview with an expert and I will name him because his book is called Family Through Lines and it's exactly what this is. His name is Mike Whitaker and I'll tag him in the show notes so you could It is a fantastic book, and it's— and I can tag the episode. So, and things that you did not even, you know, I mean, I've been talking about AI with a lot of guests and a lot of different people, and he just shed another, another— the reason we do the podcast, shed another light on a perspective I had no idea. And so great. Now I can start talking about that. Like, that's what it's all about, right? Just getting the word out there. So people like, you don't— when you don't even know what to ask, you just go, it's out there. Oh my God, what? Okay. Yeah, yeah.

No, it's, it's that, that's a great resource. Yeah. If you could, you know, put it in the, or tag it like you said.

Absolutely.

That would, that way, you know, I'd like to read it myself.

It's a great book. Yeah, great book. Highly recommend.

So, Cheryl, we're coming to the end of our time with you. I really appreciate you taking the time. I know you have other commitments. So is there anything you want to, you know, share, last thoughts you want to give? And also, where can people connect with you and find you online and You know, your books, your podcasts, all of those things.

Uh, well, everything will be on the website, so that's cherylpankers.com. Any questions, support@cherylpankers.com is an email I'm always responding to. Uh, everything else will be in the show notes or attached to my website. I just wanna say to parents who are sitting there thinking, I am like, listen, parenting is so effing hard. It is, it is, it is the hardest thing you'll ever do, hands down. So if you're sitting at home thinking, oh my God, I yelled again, or I'm failing and they're not listening, or I have no connection. When you are listening to these podcasts, when you are reading the books, you're not failing. You're still trying.

That's right.

So hats off to you. I'm telling you, the only time it's easy is when they're sleeping. And then when they're up the other 36 hours a day, it's effing hard. I'm with you. So, you know, keep reaching out to these podcasts and the books, and I'm telling you, you're doing a great job. If you're even asking the questions and seeking help, you're doing a great job. Give yourself grace.

Give yourself grace. I love it. All right, Cheryl, thank you so much. And everybody, you've been listening to the Parent Whisperer podcast. I'm Richard Ramos. And along with Cheryl's, all the, we'll put her information in the show notes so that you can access. Her information, and also don't forget to go to my pod, my website, the richardrramos.com. There's free resources there. My books are there. The online course are there. So we just want to be resourceful to you, mom and dad. We want to help you. Oh, there's no judgment. There's no shame. We're like Cheryl said, this is what else is harder than this? Just being a mom and a dad. And those of you grandparents. You know, we also have a role to play, but, but I want to end with this, as I always do. Remember this: Parents on a Mission is not for bad parents. It's for good parents who want to get better. See you next time. See you next time.