Exhausted but Can't Switch Off? Here's Why

What if the fear of not sleeping is what's keeping you awake? If you're exhausted but your mind won't switch off, if bedtime feels more stressful than restful, or if you're lying awake already worrying about tomorrow, then this episode is for you. Today I'm joined by Helen Dugdale, brain coach and author of Put Insomnia to Sleep. She helps people reduce anxiety, improve sleep, and retrain negative thinking that affects emotional well-being. Performance and Rest. Helen, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you on again.

Yes, thank you so much, Rita. It's nice to talk to you again.

Gee, insomnia, everyone's nemesis, isn't it? And it just seems to be increasing around the world. Everyone you speak to goes, I've had a terrible night's sleep, or I can't sleep, or whatever their reason is, it just seems to be growing. Let's start with why does bedtime feel like pressure instead of rest for so many people?

A lot of people put the pressure on themselves because they realize how important sleep is, and then they start to build anxieties upon anxieties. Oh, what if I don't sleep? So all they're thinking about is not sleeping. And so that's building up the stress hormone cortisol in their body. That's racing around in their body, whereas they should be closing down. They should be starting to relax and not have that— stress racing, the stress hormone racing around. So if you've got that cortisol racing around, sleep is very unlikely. So what I say to people is, what you're aiming for is to be in a relaxed, calm state. If you're in a relaxed, calm state, sleep is more likely to happen. So I've even had clients who say to me, if I stop fighting it, I get to sleep quicker. But I know that's easier to say than to do. It's easy to say, oh yeah, stop fighting it, but your brain's got into this habit of but, but, but, but, you know, all these buts coming around, and I have to do this and I have to do that, or why did I do this, all those annoying thoughts. And so you find it hard to switch off. So I get people to concentrate on just being calm and peaceful.

Is that why— and I know for myself this happens often, and it definitely happened a lot when I was younger. And I think many of our listeners and watchers will actually resonate with this, is that your body can feel totally exhausted, but your mind stays wide awake. And it's that disconnect that's so common that people are struggling with.

Yes. And well, as I was saying, it's a lot of it's to do with cortisol and adrenaline, but also your brain's got into that habit Your brain and your body has got into the habit of being awake at 2 o'clock in the morning, or whatever it is with each person, and you've got all these thoughts happening. This is where the fight or flight comes in. Your body feels that you have to be prepared to fight, but it's 2 o'clock in the morning. And a lot of the cases that my clients— we all know what we should be doing, but it's difficult to actually go and do it. Like, we should know that we should be calm and peaceful. We know that we can't do anything about all those issues at 2 o'clock in the morning. They'll still be there when we wake up. We know all that. Why are we letting it happen?

Hmm.

So our brain's got into the habit. And with the brain coaching, what I get people to do is to stop their old unhelpful ways of thinking and create a new pathway in your brain. of being more, more helpful thoughts, more relaxing thoughts. And the more we do this, the more we have those synaptic connections firing, the more likely we are going to be more calm and more relaxed. I give the example of someone who keeps telling themselves, I'm bad at maths, I'm hopeless at maths, I'm no good at maths. They keep telling themselves this negative talk. Well, of course, They won't be any good at maths. But if you keep telling yourself, getting worked up over lack of sleep, that's what your brain is concentrating on, the lack of sleep. So we stop that way of thinking and create a new pathway in your brain because your brain has plasticity. It is possible to change your ways. Now, I've known people who had little sleep for 40 years, 2 or 3 hours a night for 40, 30 or 40 years. It must be terrible. And we've managed to change their way of thinking and they've started sleeping 7 or 8 hours through the night.

That's amazing.

It is possible. You can change. And you're never too old either.

I find it fascinating, Helen, how the mind can start learning the patterns so fast to either not sleep or to start sleeping.

It might not be fast, but you have to be consistent and practice, practice, practice. I'm doing this because I'm pretending that's the synaptic connections. So the more you're thinking something, the more that's going to be your way of reacting from now on.

When you say, uh, change your thoughts, would fear— the fear of not sleeping that keeps you awake— is that part— like, is fear part of the thoughts, or is that like a different beast in itself?

That's the emotion, um, and that's the emotion that's causing the cortisol to increase. So if we can reduce that, reduce the cortisol, and bring in some of those more, um, the, the dopamine or the serotonin, those more calming hormones through your body, bring that in.

And so that'll also— because I know I've, like, for myself, I've got that head talk. I know my family and friends, they all have that head talk, and some of them say that they start to panic The moment they realize they're still awake.

So that's the habit we have to stop. And I know it's easier to say than to do, but the more you do it, the more you replace that habit with a more helpful habit, the more likely that's going to be.

Do you have— what are the thoughts that you have found or maybe recognized or see a pattern across people that keeps them more stuck in this sort of cycle?

Yes. Well, everyone is different, but some of the common ones, people feel guilt. for some reason, something that's happened in the past, and they've, they've got this, this guilty thought pattern happening. So I say to them, well, what's the opposite to guilt? Have you got some— what are the good things you like about yourself? What do, what do other people like about you? So I get them to, um, keep repeating the good things about themselves, so replacing the guilty feelings. There might have been something they did feel guilty about, but is that them all the time? It's not usually them all the time. So replace it with some more helpful thoughts like, I am a good person, or I am kind, or I am caring. I help them come up with something that they relate to, and it has to be true. We're not just making stuff up out of the air. It has to be— True to them. And most people have more good points than bad points. So that's the guilty feeling. Another— I've had a few clients who have a sense of responsibility that keeps them awake. Oh, I have to look after that person. I have to do this and I have to do that. And, and, um, oh, I must remember to ring that, that person. Or they've just got this sense of responsibility and that keeps them awake.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

So once we recognize that, and the main thing is that they are only responsible for themselves, really, unless they've got young children, but they are not responsible for the other adults in their sphere, in their life. So once they learn to let go of that and replace that sort of thinking with more helpful thoughts, they start to sleep better. Worthlessness, some people feel a sense of worthlessness, even though they might be a high flyer, They still feel a sense of worthlessness which could have been around for 20 or so years. So again, I get them to think, well, you're not worthless all the time. You know, what are some good points about yourself? You are successful in this and this and this. You are— and I get them to come up with what are they? What do they like about themselves? What are they? What gives them a sense of achievement? So keep going over those sorts of thoughts rather than the unhelpful thoughts. And then I give them some practical tips of what to do while they're lying awake. So one, and in my research, they say the worst thing you can do is lie in bed tossing and turning because then your brain and your body gets into the habit of thinking, oh, Beds for tossing and turning. If you can't go to sleep after 20 or 30 minutes, get up and go and do something boring with with low lights, you know, not bright lights, and don't do anything that's going to stimulate your brain. Just do something boring in low level light until you get feel tired again. Then go back to sleep or go back to bed. Then what you can do so another practical tip is to repeat your mantra. Like, I am, I am a good person, I am caring, I am good at this, or whatever it is that you come up with. And also do some deep breathing and counting. And our psychology lecturers at uni said, while your brain is thinking of your mantra, doing the counting and doing the deep breathing, there's no room left in your cognitive resources for all those other pesky thoughts that have been keeping you awake. And when you really do it, you know, and lean into it, they're right. You— your brain can't think of all those pesky thoughts if you are really concentrating on your mantra, the counting, and the deep breathing. You will be in a relaxed state.

Mm-hmm.

It will take practice, but I'm here to say it is possible. I've had such a success with this, with this method. Combining all those, you are more likely to get yourself into a relaxed state. Then getting yourself hyped up again.

Trying harder to sleep makes sleep so much harder.

Yes.

And why those— you know, I've always been curious about why those thoughts at 2 AM feel so real. They feel so much more real at night than what sometimes they do during the day, you know. So they're just— they're incredibly convincing. And I think that's why— well, I feel for me it's been so hard to turn my mind off because everything comes flooding back. At that time, and they just feel so much more heightened and real without the distraction of, you know, daily activities.

That's right. And that's the fear and anxiety building that up. So once you do go back to sleep and you have the REM sleep, the rapid eye movement, in, in the next cycle of your sleep, the next morning— and REM, REM is where your brain, left and right side of your brain, are balancing up the emotions. So we're reducing emotions, bringing logic in, balancing up your emotional state. So the next morning, I bet some of your listeners have woken up and thought, what was I worried about? It's not that bad. That's because they've had REM sleep, the rapid eye movement, balancing, resolving their emotional issues of the day. That's, that's when emotional issues are not that big. Like, like, we can't solve all your problems with one good night's sleep. I bet most people have woken up thinking, oh, it's not that bad. What was I worried about?

Or in what stage— like, REM sleep, does that come at a certain time of the night?

Oh no, it's in the 90-minute cycle. Most people average about a 90-minute cycle with the, the 3 stages of sleep. There's the, the first stage, then there's 2 deep stages, then there's REM sleep. And then once you go through the 4 cycles, the 90-minute starts again. So you go through another sleep cycle.

Some people have a very stubborn mindset, and others say you can't really change these stories or what you're feeling about yourself on the conscious level. You have to really go down into the subconscious. So some of, you know, someone who's been an incredible insomniac for years and years and years, to say, you know, visualize something or do some deep breathing, And they say, well, no way, that doesn't work for me. What about that person?

That's a really good point, Rita. And that's where I come in too, because sometimes people don't know what the original trigger was. So I help people find out what their original trigger was. And because it, it means that it's been left unresolved, and that's why their brain has got into that habit of staying awake. with, with that emotion. So I will, I will get them to work out, help them work out what the original trigger was so that they can finally resolve it and let and deal with it so that it's not going to be— have such an impact on them from now on. So I'm not saying forget about it, pretend it didn't happen, because it did happen. But what, what we're doing is reducing the emotion of it So that it's not having such a lasting impact. And everyone is different.

Do you find that some— that there's also a biological reason why people are, you know, bad sleepers? And how do you— how does your work help in that situation?

Um, do you mean a physiological?

Yeah, or chemical, you know, like, um, they may have something to do with, say, their liver or something like that that naturally Increases their chance of not sleeping well.

If it's a medical problem, I tell everyone, go and sort— get that sorted first. Like, it could be a bladder problem, or it could be a gut problem, or it could be aches and pains. And people put off going to see about it, but in the meantime, their sleep has got worse because of all these physiological things that it's keeping them awake. So go and, and to them, they might think, oh, it's only minor, but it's causing them to—it's interrupting their sleep patterns, and then their brain will get into the habit of being awake. But if they can sort out their physical issues and get themselves back into a more restful sleep pattern, then insomnia is not likely to happen. I've got a good example. if I can tell you about the person who came to me for sleep problems. And they were drinking a lot because they couldn't sleep. So they felt that the alcohol would help them sleep. And then because they were drinking a lot, they were being nasty to the people around them, you know, the alcohol and, you know.

Yes.

But then they couldn't sleep because of the alcohol. And then we worked out, well, why weren't they sleeping? Why were they doing— because they had back pain. Well, why didn't they go and get something done about the back pain? Was because they had—they didn't want to do the MRI. So because they needed the MRI, so the doctors could work out what was going on with their back. And then we thought, well, why didn't they want to go in the MRI? Because they had claustrophobia. Then why did they have claustrophobia? So you can see what's happening. I kept digging back. further and further. Why were they like this? And it turns out that when they were a little child, some kids locked them in a shed in the— down the paddock. Even though they, they got let out after a while and they were okay, you know, from then on, that started a pattern of emotional reaction of being claustrophobic. So we dealt with the claustrophobia.

Mm-hmm.

And then brought— reduced the emotion, brought in the logic. Then They, um, we did some, some small examples of getting used to having something over their head, um, because they said to me they couldn't even, um, lie in bed with the sheet over their head. They would get, um, anxious. So we worked out their claustrophobia. They went and had the MRI test. They got their back pain sorted. They started They reduced their intake of alcohol. They started sleeping better. A month or a couple of months later, they rang me and said they got invited to their son's wedding because up until then, their family didn't really want him there. It was just amazing how it all sort of went from one thing to another. And then they started sleeping better and feeling better about themselves and cutting down the— well, I think— In the end, he gave up alcohol completely.

That's what I was saying about, you know, sometimes it can be so much deeper and how certain techniques, um, may give you just a tiny bit of relief or stress relief at that moment, but it's not helping you sleep until you get to that root cause, basically. You know, I find, you know, it would be a lot of trust is lost in our thinking, in our ability to sleep. Like we've trust— we've lost trust in ourselves to sleep. I guess after years and years and years of insomnia, we've forgotten what it's like to have what a proper night's sleep is. We just accept, you know, oh, 5, 6 hours. Well, I slept through 5, 6 hours. That's fantastic. And maybe some people only need that. You know, what would you say to this? That actually brings me to a question before this one, actually. What would you say to the mandatory 8 hours sleep that is promoted?

Well, that is great. If you can get 7 or 8 hours sleep, that— all the research, all the medical people say that is the ideal. Some people can get by on 6 and have a productive, you know, life, well-adjusted life. I'd say anything less than 6, you need to work on because something will happen to your physiology. Your immune system gets compromised.

Mm-hmm.

let alone your emotions and being grumpy and making poor decisions. Something will give if you have less than 6 hours sleep. Having said that, there are a very small percentage of the population who can get by on less, but it really is a very low percentage. If you continue to have less than 6 hours, something's going to give.

So, going back to the beginning, is that that cycle you're talking about? So, we have less sleep, we become anxious, then our cortisol rises, and then we can even end up with less than 5 or 6.

Yes.

And it just perpetuates the same cycle that you can't get out of.

Yes.

That feels like it goes down a tunnel that's quite hard for someone to do on their own.

Yes, we— I call that the downward spiral. Yes. So we want to stop that downward spiral and create an upward spiral. The less anxious you are, The more sleep you're going to get, the less anxious you'll be, the better decisions you'll make, the better you'll feel about yourself.

For someone who has totally lost trust in their sense of being able to sleep again, you know, after years maybe of bad nights, how do you start bringing back that trust? I know you've said you've got, you know, like the deep breathing and look at where it starts. Is there anything that they can do at home? Just, you know, like they're just gone, there's no way I'm going to sleep, I'm never going to sleep.

Introduce some relaxation period before bedtime, just like a reward system, a reward routine. Like, I do this for yourself because you are worth it. Instead of getting, getting yourself worked up, maybe have a nice warm bath or, or do some gentle exercise or, um, have— rub some nice cream on you. Do anything that's going to show that you value yourself.

Mm.

And everyone is different. Maybe read something calming or listen to calming music. Anything that's going to suit your lifestyle, um, that's going to reward you for being you. And come up with all the things you like about yourself and keep reminding you yourself of that instead of all the negative, unhelpful thoughts. So get into that routine and, um, turn the lights down low, and this is your reward for working hard during the day.

That's a different way of looking at it.

Getting yourself worked up.

Yes. Yeah, it sounds like you need to put in a real sleep strategy, like, and not a strategy that means like, like at work you need all these strategies, but more of a, like you're saying, a self-caring, self-soothing type of strategy and that you're actually worth it. And you find that that trust will start to increase by doing this?

Yes. And it's important to not even use the word sleep. We want to use the word calm or peaceful or relaxing or worthy, um, because the more you think about sleep, the more it's not likely to happen. So you've got to replace that word. It's like, um, um, Telling someone to not think of a polar bear. Well, they'll think of a polar bear.

And the biggest one.

Yes. Yeah. Um, so don't even think of the word sleep. Just think of calm and relaxation.

Yes.

We don't want to build— have the cortisol building up. You want to do everything in your power to reduce the stress and bring in those calming hormones through your body.

So I know you're more around the mindset, but what about the environment, the bedroom? What would you suggest that people do? Then, you know, is a cluttered bedroom bad? Is a warm bedroom not great? How can they set themselves up for sleep success in their environment?

Yeah, I don't think the clutter is a big issue. It's more how dark the room is. How quiet the room is and how comfortable the bedding is. You don't want to be too hot because then you'll be throwing the blankets off and, you know, throwing your legs out. You don't want to be too cold either because it takes a long time to warm yourself up. It needs to be a dark, a dark room. Any chink of light when you're going through the light sleep stage, your brain. sort of subconscious, oh, it must be morning, I'll wake up. So that's when you're in the light stage of sleep. So the darker the room, the better. The quieter it is, the better, especially if there's any intermittent noise. If it's a constant noise, that's okay because your brain gets used to that. So, but if there is intermittent noise, like, like in some motel rooms, they have a fridge clicking on and off at various times. Well, when I go to a motel, I pull the— I unplug the fridge so it's not that noise clicking in and out. Or if you live near traffic, maybe have some white noise on so you've got a constant stream of the same noise rather than intermittent noise from outside. So that's important. Comfort, light. And noise is really important.

Can you give the audience a, say, a mental exercise that they can do at home? Like maybe sit on the sofa, close your eyes, like to really start getting back into their mindset, find— trying to find the most troubling thing and how to dissipate it or lessen it before going to bed?

Before going to bed, I wouldn't even ask them to find the most troubling thing because that's what they're going to be thinking about. I would ask them to find the thing they like most.

I love that.

What do they like most about themselves or most about their day, or what are they looking forward to tomorrow? Get them to repeat that, maybe do some muscle relaxation, you know, start from the toes, The ankles, the calves, the knees, the thighs. Work up your body, really concentrating on flexing and releasing those muscles. And do some deep breathing. The deep breathing puts oxygen into your bloodstream, and that immediately calms— helps to calm you down. And then have a long exhale. You're blowing out that stress. You're blowing out that carbon dioxide.

Hmm.

And, and when I do this with my clients, you can see their shoulders relaxing as we do it. We'll do that cycle A few times and they just relax.

How long does it normally take to get into a, like, a relaxed state that they feel, you know what, I can sleep now?

Probably some people it's only 5 minutes. Oh, people, it might be 20. But if it's taking too long, again, I would say get up and go and do something boring, you know, something that's not going to stimulate your system, and then get back to bed and do your relaxation technique again.

Yes.

That you've calmed down again.

They are great tips, and insomnia is such a big problem. And, you know, so many people are exhausted and they've actually lost hope around, you know, thinking that they can ever have a good night's sleep. And what you're saying is mental shift, relaxation, bring the cortisol down is, you know, the main way to actually start Developing good sleep hygiene again.

Yes. Yeah, I'm making it sound easy. I know it will take a lot of hard work, and the more we repeat something, the more likely it will happen. But I'm here to say it is possible. You can do it.

Yes. And you have all of those helpful tips in your book?

Yes. I've got a 1-page PDF of the most helpful tips. People would like a copy of that. I can send it to you if you like.

We can put that in the show notes.

It's a list of the bad habits to stop doing and the good habits to start doing. Excellent. That's that's really easy way to start.

Well, for everybody who is an insomniac and would like to break the cycle, there is hope. You know, Helen's details will be in the show notes. You can contact her. She works internationally. She has Uh, the new book you can get. Thank you, Helen, for coming on the show.

I also offer a 30-minute introductory chat, and there's no charge for that. So if people want to ring me or Zoom— have a Zoom, I'm happy to have a chat with them about their issues and see where we go from that.

Great. Thank you, Helen.

Thanks a lot, Rita.