Why You Still Feel Grief (Even When You Think You’ve Moved On)

Grief doesn't always feel like sadness. It can feel like anger, numbness, guilt, anxiety, or complete exhaustion. Grief can come through us as emotions we recognize or others we can't explain. It can change the way we think, feel, and function. Yet we may not realize grief is what we are experiencing or know what to do with it. Jason Wendorf-Rawnicki is a somatic grief therapist and yoga educator. After losing his sister, he found that talking alone was not enough And he began exploring the body's role in processing grief. Today we're looking at what grief does to us and how we can transform it and what can help us live fully alongside loss. Welcome, Jason.

Thank you so much for having me. I know it's taken me a while to get here, but I am so grateful to be here and excited to have this conversation with you.

Same, same. And yes, you do have a really deep understanding of grief and loss. Personally, and that's what's led you into this professionally. Can you just tell us a little bit about that and how you coped?

Yeah, yeah, sure. So, uh, originally I was planning on being a more traditional talk therapist. I have a master's in psychology, and I was planning on going on for a clinical PhD. And then my sister Lauren passed in a car accident in 1998, and that really got me thinking, uh, about like, oh, like, is this really gonna help me? Is this gonna support me? Talk therapy, a lot of it, it talks about emotions and, and about our thought processes. But I knew exactly what was making me feel the way I was feeling. It was because I lost my sister. And back in 1998, there were really only 2 primary or mainstream types of therapy. There was psychoanalysis, where you looked at the role of your parents and your upbringing and all that kind of stuff. But I knew that didn't fit my scenario because it wasn't about my upbringing. It was about my sister dying in the present, that that was really a problem for me. And then there was the cognitive behavioral therapy, behavioral, which was, you know, changing behaviors and, you know, looking at how you think about things. And I knew that that really wasn't going to really be a huge service either because I knew exactly what my problem was. So where was I going to go? And in fact, I actually start— I started my yoga practice a little bit before my sister passed. And then when she did pass, I was like, oh, this is actually really making me feel better. You know, I spent some time meditating, visualizing, doing yoga asana practice for my physical body. And I would actually bring that back to some of my psychology professors and I'd be like, what about meditation? What about mindfulness? What about movement? That really— they're like, oh, well, there's no science to back that up. And this was back in 1998 and there was science back then, but it wasn't as mainstream as it is now. I said, but science aside, this is working for me. This is really serving me. So why are we discrediting that as a healing modality? You know, why don't we include that in with the way our brain functions? And that's when I realized that we have to include the body, the heart, and the mind as a relationship with each other. We can't take each one separate and think, oh, if I just deal with my emotions, then I'll be good, right? No, because when you deal with your— when you shift your emotions, you shift your thinking. you shift your actions. So we have to really consider all 3 components. And so that's what I started doing for myself. I said, all right, what do I have to do for my mind to keep my mind clear and focused? What do I need to do with my emotions when those real huge waves come up? How do I just ride those waves and not let them overtake me? And then also looking at my physical body, what am I doing to, you know, to either go into action and to keep it moving forward? And so I had— I realized I had to put things together That involved all 3.

So let's go back and just explain what somatic therapy is, because a lot of people, maybe they understand therapy, but they may not understand what somatic is. And this is where you've just spoken about the connection between us, between all those mind, body, spirit.

Sure. And so somatic, the word soma means body. That's all that it means. And I know it's a big catchphrase these days. And when a lot of people say, oh, you know, I'm a somatic practitioner, or— they're just saying body. And a lot of times, a lot of people just use movement as a way of dealing with the body, but it's so much more. Movement is only one part of keeping your body healthy. There's diet, there's movement, there's especially sleep. You know, they're showing that sleep may actually be more important than diet or exercise because it's our body's time to repair. And if we're not getting good quality sleep, our body's at a deficit.

Mm-hmm.

So try performing or try performing your job at the highest level when you're sleep deprived. It's really challenging. So sleep is really critical. So when I say that I'm a somatic therapist, I think of the body as a whole. So not just like, oh, not just movements. It's also taking it even into our body care products and our cleaning products when they're filled with you know, toxic chemicals, then our body has to filter that out and it takes energy to filter that stuff out. So, you know, it, it could be as simple as shifting the products that you use in your home. So I look at all— when I talk about the, the soma or the body, I think of all of that, you know, and, and it goes deep.

There's so many aspects to it that can keep— like if you are, if you are grieving, I don't wanna just, you know, do mass assumption here, but it is really easy to go for junk food. Or alcohol, or something that can numb you, or something that you feel is comfort. And then, but in an actual fact, we're doing ourselves a disservice there.

I would also say everybody's grief is different, so we can never. And sometimes it may sound like I'm giving an answer, but a non-answer. It's only because everybody's grief is so different. Some people do go down the oh, I'm going to stuff everything in my face. But then there's another group that don't eat at all. So you know, so it you can't really. Especially because your your podcast is called Beyond Diagnosis. We can't use one symptom and say, oh, everybody does it this way because in grief, it's especially we all have our own patterns and we have to find those patterns and we have to decide figure out if those patterns are serving us or those patterns are being a detriment to us. So we it's really about finding the right patterns and that same thing with lifestyle as well. We have to find the right blend because exercise is great, but if you exercise too hard, it can You can get injured. So we have to— everybody has the right balance that they have to find, um, and, and find the right system that works for them. Because what works for me will not work for somebody else. Um, and so we have to figure out, like, what it is— what is going to serve you, uh, in any given moment. Like, how, how does shifting lifestyle, you know, how can that support you?

Exactly. And I think one of the big emotions— things people have to realize whilst they're going through all of this is that they need compassion for Oh, yes. Not to go to the extremes, like to feel like you have to, you know, run a marathon to try and get this grief out of you or whatever. Yeah, but it all needs compassion. And one of the interesting things that I found, like, you, you experience grief in terms of death.

Yes.

But there's so many other forms of grief that someone can experience in their life and maybe don't recognize that it's grief, you know.

Yes.

You could have worked on your anxiety, but for so much of your life you never went outside and you missed out on so much. I had a friend— well, have a friend— who lost so much weight, and you'd think that you'd be so elated at the end of it, but she wasn't. She was so sad.

Yeah.

And I said to her, why are you so sad? I mean, you've done an amazing job. You look what you've done for your health. She goes, I know, but now that I'm out and about, I realize how much life I've missed. Because I was hiding at home because I was ashamed of my body.

Yeah, well, and that's, and that's where the thought, the emotions, and the body all come into harmony, like either harmony or disharmony with each other, right?

You—

she thought— you thought she should be happy, but she had another thought that, oh, I missed out on a lot of life because I was ashamed of myself, right? And then there's the shame, which is the emotion, and then either the weight or the physical, you know, shape of the body is the, is the body piece. So they all have— they're all in connection and all in harmony with each other at all times. And so if we just look at the body alone, we're missing out on— like, thoughts are vibrations and they affect the cells of the body. And so if we're thinking in a negative way about ourselves, about, you know— And that's where grace really comes into play, is that we have— we do have to give ourselves grace because Because we have to make some of those shifts.

I don't think she recognized that her sadness was actually grief.

Yeah. And some of them are degenerative illnesses. And yeah, well, and there's also— it's not just— so, you know, I'm working with some people who have illnesses that— and making sure that our goal is to have my client not to identify as the illness, that his physical body can be going through a certain thing, but his mind, heart, and and state can really be joyful and happy, even though he has to make adjustments all along the way as his body, you know, doesn't want to participate like the way he thinks it should. And so we're spending a lot of time focusing on all the things he is able to do, all the things that bring him joy, all the things that, you know, if he has a little setback, that it's, you know, that's all that it is. It's only temporary. It'll, you know, it'll work itself through so that he doesn't become his illness. And actually, I kind of call it like the walking dead, right? Like, you're alive, but you're already thinking of your death, or you're not even living the life that you've been given. And so, you know, we're really working on— so there's other areas that are loss, but not necessarily a death of a person. Like, divorce is a great example. Retirement is a big one also because you— People identify themselves as their jobs. And when then they don't have their jobs, then they don't have purpose. And we all need to have some sort of meaning or purpose. And that drives us forward. So, you know, sometimes we have to recreate what that new purpose is. There's also loss of a job or selling of a business, all those kinds of things, you know, midlife crises or menopause, you know, for women. Are all ways of loss kind of bringing— coming into the play?

That identity part is really big. I often say that to people as well, and I've said it before on the podcasts, etc., that when we make our diagnosis or anything else, as you described, our identity, like, I am, you know, a diabetic. I am, as opposed to I have diabetes or I have a heart condition, or, you know, when you really take ownership. It's good to take ownership to take action, but not ownership as in it is your life, it is who you are.

I think diagnosis has taken on a life of its own, right? Like, a diagnosis was really just supposed to be for, like, the medical community to communicate with one another, like, and it wasn't designed to be like Dr. Google and everyone walks around with, oh, I have ADHD, I have trauma, I have You know, I am, you know, so I think what happens is that we've taken diagnoses to an extreme that we forget that we're human beings and we have multiple different experiences. And yes, it's great to, you know, to be able to identify what's going on, but there's a very fine line between using it for your health or using it to be part of your identity. And so I think we have to be really careful, especially around diagnoses. And one of the things I kind of stay away from diagnoses altogether because I feel that it minimizes the human experience. And so we have to be careful about that.

I think grief is quite fluid. It's a fluid individual process. What are the stages of the emotions that we go through?

Right. So I don't believe in stages. I know that there's a lot of people out there, especially in the grief space, that say, oh, the stage, the 5 stages of grief or the 6 stages of grief. And I don't like to use the word stages because It implies that you have to do one thing and then another thing happens and then another thing happens and then another thing happens. And grief doesn't— grief can come out of the blue. Grief can show up out of nowhere.

There's—

and so I don't actually believe in stages. I have a specific framework that I use when I work with my clients because a framework, you can put your experience within that framework and it still will make sense because as I said, You know, grief is such an individualized thing where it— with one person needs to eat, another person, you know, doesn't eat at all. Some people go to, you know, go to drugs and alcohol. Other people go to healthy lifestyle things. So there's— it's a very individual process. So I love a framework. And the framework that I use is, you know, in the beginning, it's about creating awareness, right? We don't— we can't manage something that we're not aware of. So we have to cultivate awareness first. And that goes with like what we think, what we feel, and what we do in the moment. So, and then, and then from there, we can then make a choice. Once we're aware of what we want, of what's going on, we can then make a change, or we have a choice to make a change. And that, that I call peak— like, we want to be in a peak state. We want to take where we are in the moment and then either change the story that we're telling ourselves, change our physiology, or change our focus. Because a lot of times in grief, People focus on what they've lost rather than what they have. And so we have to really find a way of changing your, your state in the moment. And then third piece is really finding your compelling future, which includes your identity and what, what your new passions are. Because a lot of times when we experience a loss, we lose our, our future focus. And so we have to bring that back in.

For the audience who experienced pressure about the timeline for them to get on with life, basically.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Say to them, because that would be really hard.

Yes. And and that's for many grieving people. That's like a really sticky point, right? Because it's not. We we say it's not a sprint; it's a marathon. It's not going to be over. Like my sister died over 28 years ago, and I still miss her to this day. Right? Like so it. It's not something that you're going to get over. And so when people say, oh, you should be over that— no, right? Like, if you got your arm cut off and you were— and, you know, someone said, hey, you're still complaining about your arm being cut off? Well, no, it's going to be a lifetime thing that you're going to be aware of, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so we all have our own timelines on things. But that being said, a lot of people who grieve feel that they can do this by themselves and do it alone. And that really extends that timeline. And so you want to really, in my opinion, you want to get into working on that grief as soon as you can. I love working with newly bereaved people because they don't have those bad habits yet. They haven't suppressed it for years and years. I mean, I probably suppressed my grief for probably about 2 years before I realized that I should start working on my own grief. Because as a bereaved sibling, our grief gets very invalidated by the grief of our parents. So for about 2 years, I was just like not dealing with it. And that didn't serve me because it was showing up in other ways that was really causing my life to kind of spiral downward. So get to working on it as soon as you can, but let go of the expectation that you're going to get over it, or— because that's just not realistic.

Do you help them with language around that when they're feeling under pressure from society?

Oh, 100%. Yes. Language is critical, right? Because our language determines the way in which we talk about things. It also kind of indicates— it shows how we think about things as well. And so when people are talking about, oh, I should get over this, or I'm broken is a good one that I hear, I'm like, no, there's nothing to fix. You're not broken. You just have to learn some new skills and strategies to be able to cope and manage. So yes, language is critical at any part of any part of our lives, never mind just grief and loss. Because how we— language is vibration. And vibration, once again, goes back down into the cells of the body. And if we aren't careful of the words that we use, then, you know, we're manifesting a whole bunch of things that we don't— we either do want to manifest or don't, depending on how we're using our language. So language is so important.

How do you coach people to push back on others that are putting them under pressure? Is there any sort of sentence you teach them to use? Is there any—

Yeah, yeah, sometimes there's a couple of ways. So one is just some, some grounding exercises, some deep breathing, feeling your feet on the ground, right? Like, so one of my favorite things to get grounded is that you kind of sit up nice and tall, you take 3 deep breaths, and we could do it now, right? So take 3 deep breaths. Just kind of tune inward, right, as you breathe. And then after that 3rd breath, I want you to open up your eyes and I want you to notice 5 things that you see, right? And you could just name them, right? Like, so I'm looking at my ring light, my computer, my microphone, uh, my— I have a wipey board to the side, right? So 5 things you see and then 4 things you hear. Like, I hear my refrigerator in the background. I hear a humming I hear— actually, I have 2 refrigerators. They each make a little bit of a— oh, I can hear my air conditioner. That's— I could— in the background, I can, you know. And so you hit 4 things that you hear, 3 things that you, um, that you can smell— or sorry, 3 things that, that you can touch or you're feeling on your skin, 2 things that you smell, and 1 thing that you taste. And what that does is it gets you grounded into the present moment. It gets you into your body so that when someone comes at you with things that don't make sense. You can stay more rooted and grounded within yourself so their ideas, their stuff doesn't impact you as well, because nobody can have an impact on you unless you give them permission to.

Let's go on to how does someone recognize or come to recognize grief may feel like physical pain or complete exhaustion?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of— like, a lot of times people have unexplained physical things that go, you know, that go on that there's no medical reason that they should have it. Headaches or, you know, respiratory issues. And a lot of times there's something called mirror neurons, which is super interesting because sometimes the physical pain or the physical challenge mimics the way— if it was a death-related loss— mimics the way their loved one passed. So I had a client who was having respiratory problems and her sister had passed of respiratory distress. Right. And so I had someone have lower back pain. And it turns out that her mother who had passed also had like something with her lower back that caused her, you know, problems. So sometimes we mirror the physical ailments of the people we love. Also, sometimes it's just unexplained stuff that happens. And there's no way to put a finger on it. And I believe a lot of— I believe even most of our physical challenges, some of it comes from the body, but most of it comes from the way we think and the way we feel. And it's just manifesting in the body. And once we unlock the thing that's, you know, the thought pattern behind it, then the physical stuff can go away as well.

Would that mean that the vagus nerve is highly activated or stressed, and then it affects all the different organs as well.

Yeah, I think the whole nervous— the whole nervous system gets stressed out, right? Like the whole nervous system, you know, all the nerves get stressed out, especially because it's not the grief that is the problem. It's the grief is a magnifying glass for all the other things, the underlying stuff that's already been going on, but it gets so loud within our nervous system That we can't ignore it anymore. And so that's like one of the— that's sort of one of the gifts that grief has given me. It's allowed me to look at all of the challenges that I've had even before my sister passed because it magnified it. And then I'm like, oh, I got to deal with that. I got to deal with that. And I got to deal with that. And so it really shines a light on all the things that we need to work on anyway. And so it's just— it becomes part of ourselves, right?

Yeah.

We don't want to over-identify even with the grief. Once we are able to see the beauty in it and the gratitude within the grief itself, we can put it in place with all of our other identities so that this way it doesn't take up too much space.

It can come in waves as well, can't it?

No.

It's not like it— I mean, for some people it may be constant, heavy, always on them, but for other people it can be Suddenly, you have this rush come up. How do you deal with that in that very moment when you're feeling this big wave of emotion?

I believe in riding the wave. Emotions are just energy in motion. When those waves of emotion come up— now, we're specifically talking about emotions. They can be triggered by thoughts or actions or outside stimulus, but when those— you hear a song that The person that you loved, you know, used to love, and then you're like, oh, I remember that. I miss them so much. And then that wave comes up. The most effective way is just to sit there and be in the emotion itself. Just let it rise. Let it fall. What happens is that our brain gets involved, and when the wave starts to go up, our brain goes, oh, this is never going to end. Oh, shit. And we keep feeding the emotion, and all of a sudden, it gets worse than it really needs to be. But if you let that emotion, if you feel that emotion deeply for, they say, about 90 seconds without feeding it, it'll go up and it'll crest. And then you just wait till it ends. And then you can kind of, you know, make a different choice afterwards. So I don't believe in, you know, some people talk about, as soon as you feel that emotion, think something different or do something different. I'm like, no, we have to embrace that emotion. You wait till it rises and falls, and once it's crested and it starts to go down, then you can make the other choice because we have to accept those emotions. If not, they'll just keep coming back and cycling back around.

To have acceptance of what's happening, have awareness of what's happening to you, and an understanding of your emotions, to think about making change or giving yourself the permission to make change, Don't we need to feel safe in our bodies first?

Oh, 100%. Yes, we have. Yes, we absolutely— we safe, but we don't have to feel comfortable, right? Because, because comfortable— because we have to get out of our comfort zone in order to kind of make those shifts and changes, right? To be able to be like, okay, I'm sad, I'm sad, right? And we can accept our sadness. And then— but we can keep repeating that sadness over and over and over again, right? And it may feel Especially in the early stages of grief, it's hard to feel anything but whatever that feeling is. So to make that shift and change is uncomfortable, for sure. But you do have to feel safe in your body and get out of your comfort zone.

Is there anything that we should avoid doing while grieving in that, in the first stages of grief, in the first, either you've just realized that, like I said, my friend had lost the weight, and she's in that first stage of sadness, or in your, like your situation where You've lost a loved one. Is there something that we shouldn't really be doing?

So I think yes. I mean, the, the grieving person mostly needs you there, your presence. That's all that they need. They don't need advice. They don't need— usually they don't need advice. They don't need, you know, they just need you to be there for them. And so just to be there without saying anything— there's nothing you can say when someone's grieving. There's nothing that you can say that's going to make them Feel better. There's just nothing. But if you're there and you're like, I'll sit with you and just be with you, that's enough. That's really the gift. That would be a gift for anybody who's grieving. If you can just say, I'm gonna come and sit with you. I'm not gonna say anything, and I'm just gonna sit here and breathe with you or just be present with you. You let me. You know, that is that's that's the the golden ticket for anyone grieving because doing and you know. Giving them things or giving them advice—it's it's just not. Most people will not; they don't even know what they need. So even asking the question, "What do you need?" They don't know because they're they're in the throes of it. But presence and just being there without saying anything—that's the gift.

That really is a gift because sometimes when someone becomes over busy around you, sometimes I think it's more about their discomfort with your grief. Actually trying to help you.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And and and because someone's busy doesn't mean they're not grieving. Some people get super busy just so that they avoid having to deal with their grief. And so let even letting go of the judgment that you have of what grief should look like because some people get busy, some people stay in bed all day. It's just the you know. And I think when especially in the early stages we have to adjust our expectations even. So, you know, getting out of bed may be a reason to celebrate, taking a shower, eating something, anything. Like, I'm a big proponent of organic foods and clean eating. But if you're grieving, just to get anything in your mouth may be a success. So we have to, like, really alter our expectations of what's even capable or possible. And then build it up over time. So, you know, so it's not going right to like a huge complicated system. It's okay, yes, you got out of bed today, that's a success. You, you know, took a shower, awesome. You know, you ate food, doesn't matter what kind of food, you ate food, great. And then, and then once, you know, once things start to move along, then you can, then you can start to tweak and do those kinds of things.

I don't know the right wording. Do you find it more challenging to work with someone who's had prolonged grief over many years and is really kind of stuck in it, as opposed to someone who has only had it for, say, several months or a year?

I wouldn't say challenging. I mean, it definitely takes— I mean, with nervous system, you know, conditioning, because it's been a longer period of time, they've been doing certain habits for longer periods of time. That, that switching definitely takes more time for sure. But I do very physical things that get people out of their, like, comfort zone. And so it acts as like, you know, a reset, a brain reset, because they're, you know, it breaks their patterns and it interrupts their patterns. And once you interrupt your pattern, it's like, oh, okay, now I can, you know, do something else. And so, you know, I introduce a lot of pattern interrupts in the work that I do. Because to get people out of exactly what you're talking about, those habits that may not even— that may not serve them.

So I've done a lot of mindset work over the years. It wasn't until one point that I had an aha moment and I thought, oh, this stuff isn't working. I keep doing the same thing. You know, like really the belief had shifted. And then I, one day I went, oh, it's the habit. I haven't changed the habit. I've changed the belief.

Right.

Because it takes— doesn't it take 3 weeks or something to change a habit?

Yeah, yeah, 60 to 90 days. I think 60— oh, I can't remember the exact number, but they've done research. I think it's 62, but don't quote me on that one. But yeah, it's between 60 and 90 days for things to be habitual. And habits are not— they're nonjudgmental. You could You could have a bad habit or a habit that doesn't serve you, or you could have a habit that does serve you. We are a product of our habits, so changing habits is really, really critical. I think though we have to analyze every 6 months, every year, like, are these habits that I'm doing, are they effective? If not, we may hit a plateau, and if we don't change the habit, then we don't rise, we actually fall, because you're either growing or you're dying. And so we want to make sure that our habits grow with us, because, you know, this way we can keep reaching for the next level, because you can't get to the next level without a different set of either beliefs, feelings, actions, or habits, right? So we always want to keep growing.

There's a great saying, you can never resolve a problem on the same level that it was created. You did mention that people think that they can sort of go through the grief on their own or resolve— is that the right word? Resolve? Transform?

I like the word befriend, right? Like, I like befriending my grief, right? Like, because grief is just— it becomes part of you, right? Like, and we want to be friends with it. We want to have a relationship with it so that this way, you know, like, listen, I get into arguments with friends all the time. So grief is no different. I get into arguments with grief all the time, and then it's like, but then afterwards we like make up, and then, you know, we kind of walk together. You know, some people say a driver's seat, right? Like, you know, originally grief starts in as the driver, but then you take over the wheel and it becomes a passenger, and then eventually you can get it from the front seat to the back seat and then into the trunk, but it's always going to be there.

So if somebody was keen to book in with you but wanted to know first What is the process? Can you just tell us about it?

Yeah, so I do— I do most of my work right now is one-on-one online, because I want the day-to-day operations of my work to be, you know, global, because grief is actually a global thing. And it doesn't get the right support in many other countries. I know, even in the US, it's like, you know, it's now being talked about, knock on wood, thank God. But for a very long time, it wasn't, it was always brushed under the under the rug. And I know it's still that way in some other countries. So I want to make sure that I'm available globally. So I do all of my work online, hoping to do 4 retreats a year so that we can— because I do believe in the power of in-person as well. And so I do offer a free session if anyone wants to, you know, get a better understanding of how I work. I work with everybody so differently. The idea is to figure out what your patterns are. Not like what everybody does, right? Like, we have to find what your specific patterns are so that we can kind of break them and, you know, shift them and change them. Uh, so I do it one-on-one. It's— it— I do some movement sometimes. I do, as I say, I do a lot. I have a lot of different tools in my toolbox. Um, and some of it's movement, some of it is, you know, just talking, mindset work. Some of it is emotions, like watching the emotions— where is it held in your body? So I do a lot of different techniques that— but it always starts with the body, heart, and then mind, or works the opposite way down.

It sounds incredibly supportive and definitely, I think, such good, good service for somebody who really is consumed by their grief.

Yes.

Consumed is like the major level, but on any level, you know.

Well, consumed is actually a good word to describe what some people experience for sure on a high level, right? And most people feel that they're the only ones that are going through this. And the reality is, is you're not. If you feel like you are alone in this, please reach out to me, connect with me because you're not alone. There's a whole community of people that are supportive. I have a bunch of colleagues that do other different— I work with bereaved siblings. I actually have a free peer support group. For bereaved siblings. In fact, it's a whole community of siblings that we have meetings every single week. I do, you know, as I say, I offer a free session just to check out what I do, if— see if it's the right fit for you. And, you know, so there's a lot of support out there. I'm also part of an organization called the Compassionate Friends here in the United— oh, it's actually a global organization. It's specifically for parents that have lost children, siblings that have lost siblings, and grandparents that have lost grandchildren. It's specific for that population of people. It is a global organization and they are absolutely amazing. And so, and there are other local, you know, other local organizations as well. So you do not need to do this alone. Please get the support because it will help you move forward faster.

And if you are looking for support, all of Jason's details will be in the show notes. So do reach out to him even just for a chat to understand, you know, what's possible for you. And I love your saying there, hope is on the way. So it's so true. Yeah. Thank you.

No, that is— well, that could— because that— I mean, especially with grief, you know, we lose hope. We lose hope in life. We lose hope in ourselves. And so I want to make sure anyone that's grieving knows that hope is on the way.

Yeah, absolutely. We all want To have a bit more joy in our life again after something like this. Yeah, 100%.

So thank you so much for— this was amazing.

Thank you. Thank you for coming on.