BNC#8: Rob Hersov Q&A - A brutal reality check on leadership, voters, and the economy

This BizNews production is brought to you by Brenthurst Wealth. A Mauritian trust offers a powerful solution for global estate planning. Invest better with Brenthurst. I think the main thing that came out of your talk today was that let's see the world as it is. Not as we want it to be. The ANC is clearly seeing the world as it, as they want it to be. What's it going to take for them to see the world as it is? I just park that for a minute because yesterday Helen said, if you work the numbers out, 23% of eligible voters voted for the party that is running this country as though it had 100%. Where's the other 75, 70, sorry, 77%? And what can they do to get those who are seeing the world as they want it to be, actually as it should be, as it is?

So the plain truth is the vast majority of South Africans are heavily undereducated. If you look at the statistics, of children that cannot read for meaning that have been through our school system, it's off the charts. So we have a voting population. Let me say it politely, that has absolutely no idea how an economy runs, a democracy runs, or what a constitution is. It's probably a good thing they're not voting. Because how would they vote if they were forced, if every South African was forced to vote? I think the ANC would be in with a huge majority because we do not have an educated population. And the only thing, as Helen has said, that is impacting the voters in Gauteng is service delivery. It's not South African Airways being bankrupted by the ANC. Nobody flies. They don't even know how aeroplanes fly. It's not the ANC bankrupting Transnet because what do the average person care about Transnet? Lorries are carrying the goods, taxis are carrying the people in worse traffic. The only thing that seems to be resonating with the average, not very smart voter in this country is water, maybe electricity, and probably a little bit of education. I think people are sensing it isn't working, but they're not coming to the conclusion that the ANC is a disaster. They have no idea how an economy works. They think the government runs the economy. They have no idea about the private enterprise's important contribution or the fact that so few of us pay tax.

I've got a different view because I know a few people who've done very well at the bottom end of the pyramid, and they said, They consistently said, just because somebody is not rich or someone's poor doesn't mean they're thick.

No, it's education, not wealth.

Well, they're clever and it's, it's getting the message across, but, but that's not really the issue. The issue that we need to look at is the world is a certain way. It has changed, as that was the thrust of what you were saying, and yet The guys who run our business, our business, our CEO is acting as though it hasn't changed. What might it take? Do we have to go bankrupt first?

You have to go bankrupt first. I mean, it's like an addict, an alcoholic, until they're crawling on the floor begging for help, they're not going to get well. And the ANC are still breaking and stealing. Being funded by the likes of Iran. And they're only there. They are run, as Prince Michele said, the people to blame for Cyril to being in charge are two groups: the gangsters that are milking this economy dry and the white corporate business people who backed Cyril for CR17. He said they should have starved the ANC of financial oxygen to get rid of him. So Cyril's got another year and a half. He doesn't care. He's gonna go out. He's gonna keep the status quo. And he is also too scared to tackle the bad guys. They own him. They've got photographs of him doing God knows what. They have files on him. He can't move. They're all compromised with each other. Nothing will happen until country goes bankrupt. There's civil unrest that turns against them, or the USS Abraham Lincoln does not go back home via the Suez, but heads down here and parks off Durban and Simonstown. That is the only way this place will change. Quick, quick.

Do you think that's even vaguely possible? The USS Abraham Lincoln?

I mean, we're all dreaming of a Venezuela here, aren't we? Imagine if Cyril Fekile Julius just got helicoptered out and ended up in orange overalls. Wouldn't that be the great day? Look, if South Africa is a top 10 priority country for America and America is running out of patience with South Africa, I asked the ambassador, is the, is the Ronnie Jackson bill and that Senator Kennedy, um, an act going through Senate right now bipartisan? And he said it pretty much is. If it's bipartisan, both will go through and these people will get sanctioned. And then America moves to the next step, the next step, the next step.

I was interested to hear what he was saying about lacking patience and didn't— I should have pushed him on that. What do you think he actually meant by that? And how much time have we got?

One year ago, The three amigos and Theo de Jahia is here, went to Washington and came back with the five issues.

They're all three here, by the way. Cornet is here.

I saw Cornet yesterday.

And so is Gerard Pape.

The three amigos went to America and came back with a very clear five issues that Trump wanted. And they weren't, they weren't impossible conditions to fulfill like the Americans gave Iran. You know, unconditional surrender. That's pretty definite. The 5 conditions they gave were: Black economic empowerment should not be imposed on American companies. They didn't ask for the removal of BE. They just said, why should the 500 American companies have to obey that? Expropriation without compensation needs to be changed to expropriation with market compensation. There was the refugee issue. There was the, you know, the two other issues.

Now you got me.

I got you. Okay. Corné, the two other issues.

No, but the point is there were five issues.

Killaboa must be hate speech and farm murders need to be a priority crime. None of those five are major changes. America asked for that a year ago. They've not even had a response from Pretoria, from the ANC. No response. What does that mean? One year, no answer. You don't take us seriously. We're running out of patience.

But who's running foreign affairs in South Africa then? It's supposed to be a government of national unity.

The Islamists. How do you know? Look, Helen said, join the dots. Where there's smoke, there's fire. We all suspect We're all pretty sure that Tehran has been funding the ANC. We've all heard the stories. They were bankrupt, couldn't pay their bills. Suddenly they had money. Naledi Pandor shuttling back and forth to Iran. There's no doubt in any of our minds Iran has been funding the ANC. And one condition, which Helen made pretty clear, was the Islamists of the ANC are in charge of Durco.

But last year, the Deputy President sat where you're sitting now. And he said, I asked him this, if you recall, in fact, it was Neil de Beer's question. And he said, we have sold properties around the world, the ANC owned, and that is how we funded our election campaign. And that is how we got out of debt.

Which properties?

Well, he said we've sold properties.

Yeah.

Did he not tell the truth?

Paul Mashatile telling the truth? Okay, let me think about that for a second.

Okay, so what to do? Yeah, we have 600 people. Many of the people here, I know who's here. They have enormous power, huge power within their own organizations. Entrepreneurs, self-made people. They have a massive circle of influence within their own environments. What are they supposed to do under this environment?

Well, it would be nice for them to speak out more publicly and just, just say what happened in the Zondo Commission. Say it is unacceptable the ANC continues to run this country with all these charges hanging over its head. And all the metrics you could ever list— education, power, state-owned enterprises, corruption— all the evidence is there. Speak out. Speak out.

They're not all Rob Hersovs, though. They don't all have the resources. You— I don't know if you heard Rob Hudson last night, but his story is apocryphal in a way. In that they have been stand— holding the line and the next thing they get cops with automatic weapons breaking through their security cordon with parliamentarians making all kinds of trouble. No, people don't like going through that kind of nonsense.

It's a, it do it in numbers. Here's the problem. Corporate South Africa form these business groups, hire ANC-lite human being like Martin Kingston and expect that to be their voice. It is pathetic. It is pathetic.

But that's not business. That's, that's big business. Melanie Vaness is here, for instance. She's the chair of the Chambers of Commerce of South Africa. Chambers of Commerce is like our Chamber of Commerce here in Hermanus. I don't know, 200 businesses are members of that. That's business. You've spoken there, you've seen the people there are passionate. That's all they are busy doing. Should Melanie be the one making her voice louder?

Look, I think what we all need to do is be heavily backing the political parties we think will make a difference, like the DA, okay, or the Freedom Front Plus. We need to give money. All of us give money to charity. All of us. But giving money to charity is putting a sticking plaster on a sore created by the ANC. Think about all the charity you give— education, health— you're solving problems created by the real problem, which is the ANC government. And yet you don't give money to the DA or the Freedom Front Plus. You think you've done your job. Setting up charities, creating foundations.

You didn't mention the PA.

Or the PA or the IFP. I'm assuming—

You didn't mention ActionSA.

Or ACDP.

You didn't mention ActionSA.

I won't mention ActionSA. On the basis of what Helen said. No, I think ActionSA has lost the plot.

Well, Herman is here and he will be able to answer that in—

Herman, you've lost the plot.

Uh, it's okay. I've seen him turn around tougher crowds than that. No problem.

Only, listen, he's a great businessman, so I wish he'd bring more of a business mind to politics.

But anyway, see, well, who knows? We will be hearing from Herman later, as we all know. Okay, onto our questions. My apologies, Rob. There are a number, and lots of people are interested in finding out your opinion on many issues. Uh, here's one from, uh, John Carter. How does, how do you believe businesses can make their criticism and objections clear and meaningful? How do you actually practically do that?

Wow. What about an ad in some of the legacy media newspapers? Or TikTok ads, because you reach the audience, the South African audience with TikTok, with 6, 7, 8, 9 prominent people saying the same thing together, en masse, getting everyone together, creating an advertisement, creating a message, and make it simple and clear. The ANC will destroy your future as it is destroying the present day. The reason you are unemployed, the reason your children are uneducated, the reason you don't have water, the reason you don't have power is the ANC. Stop voting for the ANC. Vote for your future. How hard is it to get 20 of you, video the same thing, run it together, do it en masse? You don't have to do it on your own like I do. Do it en masse. There's a practical way.

Louis Moody says, I'm a big supporter of your views, but America is only strong because of the hard line that Trump took. What happens if the Democrats come to power again?

That's a problem. No, I mean, the Democrats are fundamentally anti-American. Look at Obama. What a disastrous 8 years. Look at Biden, which was Obama's third term. Even worse. That is the evil and nasty and dangerous side of America, the leftist America. And I worry that that could— I don't think they'll be, even if they do well in the midterms, I don't think they can reverse much of what Trump has put in place. He moved so quickly, so precisely with such impetus that those, you know, he's closed the border. Bang. And he did that overnight. That's not going to open again. By the way, I do worry about one thing from the Middle East. America crushing the radical Islamists and the home of radical Islamism is Iran. America smashing them to bits means they're going to run somewhere else. America's borders are closed. Where they're going to go? The weakest possible place, Europe. I think the flow of dangerous, evil, radical Islamists to Europe is going to be the next big negative consequence. And I pray they don't consider coming here.

Peter asks, how effective will individual sanctions on ANC members by the United States be?

They are brutal. They're absolutely brutal. If you are named SDN list, Magnitsky list sanctions, your life changes for the worst immediately. You can't board an airline allied to America. You can't land in half the countries in the world. Your children can't go to university or school. You can't wire money where an intermediary bank is linked in any way to America or part of the dollar system. And see, am I right? You are doomed. You can't use a credit card. You can't wire money. I mean, it's, you barely can travel. You are under serious threat and the Americans can pick you up like that. If you happen to stray into the wrong country.

Do you think they already know what these en, these people that they are targeting for potential sanctions are up to?

They know way more than we do, way more. I mean, if you think of what America and Israel have managed to do to Hamas, to Hezbollah, to the Houthis, and to Iran, individually targeting people in their apartments. If you think of that sort of information, and you'd think Iran were kind of a bit more intelligent and sophisticated than the ANC. They've got everything on the ANC.

Isn't that scary to you that they might decide, I don't like Rob Hersoff anymore?

I won't know, will I? I'll be dead.

Okay. Would you, uh, Anthony Ribeiro has got a good question here. Would you join Helen if she asks you to help sort out Joburg?

I've already offered to help her. I've said, Helen, I will help you in any way possible.

What if the USA asks Kwan, I think it is, C-U-A-N, how do you pronounce it?

Juan.

Juan. Not Juan.

Juan Elgin.

Juan Elgin. You know Juan. Okay.

Based in the Bahamas.

Okay.

Juan.

Apologies. Uh, Rob, the USA wants to deal with a West-friendly enclave, i.e., the Western Cape. Should we back a Cape exit?

So the Freedom Front Plus backs Cape exit. America should too. Yes. I suggested cheekily, uh, I was going to suggest cheekily to the ambassador that America move the embassy from Pretoria to Cape Town, but I happened to bounce that off Helen before I chatted to the ambassador, and Helen said, no, please don't do that. Because the DA is going to win Tshwane, Pretoria, and we want to keep the embassy back up there. So I didn't.

Well, we've got Saleh Brink, who's hopefully the one who—

Saleh Brink is excellent. Well, you should all back him.

He's going to talk here as well a little later. Jonty Sachs, you know, Jonty says, why has Rob moved from a DA supporter to Freedom Front Plus?

I haven't moved yet. The DA is more likely to be able to win and run this country than any other party outside the ANC. They are positioned to do so. They've got the team. But if I look at my values and my principles, and I'm honest with myself, the DA are Democrats, Freedom Front are Republicans in the American terms, and I am a Republican. I am MAGA. And so my values are Freedom Front Plus, but the more likely winning horse is the DA. So I'm trapped in that limbo, which I think a majority of you are too. And I admire greatly Cornel Mulder and the Freedom Front Plus and what they're doing.

But the Freedom Front Plus, He gave a really good talk last night. He really did. I'm, I'm, uh, any, well, all of those of us who heard it would have been, you have to be impressed. The Freedom Front Plus will deal with the PA. They will deal with the Patriotic Alliance. The DA seems to, doesn't want to deal with anybody. Well, certainly not them.

So when Leon, before Leon Schreiber blocked me, on WhatsApp. Every time I messaged him, all he would respond to me was with one message: PA equals ANC. Okay, pretty childish, Leon. Every time the DA talks about the PA, including Helen— gangsters, criminals, etc., etc.— and I've said to Helen, and I've said to everyone in the DA says it, give me one shred of proof. Give me one instance. Give me one instance of Gayton and the PA doing what you say they're doing. Not one shred of evidence is forthcoming.

Not one.

And much as I love Helen, she did say that Gayton McKenzie did certain things in meetings. I called Corne Mulder and Corne said, I was in those meetings. Gayton didn't do anything of the sort. So I think the DA strategy politically, because they're threatened by the Patriotic Alliance, particularly in the Western Cape, is to try and make us all think that Gaten and the PA are a Trojan horse for the ANC. I don't believe that. And when you look at my— let's call me a center-right for the moment— my Republican tendencies in South Africa, The two parties whose values and manifestos fit what I believe in are Freedom Front Plus and the Patriotic Alliance. They are the center-right parties of South Africa. They are Judeo-Christian, pro-West, pro-rule of law. They're my sort of parties.

Hmm. Russell asks this question. Please talk about how you see you and I can have these chats anytime. And that's why I'm not going to engage on that. I'm going to let the community ask you the questions.

Outsourcing.

Please talk about how the ANC has been financially captured by Iran, particularly, and if Cyril and MTN has any relevance in this. MTN being brought in.

MTN is in serious trouble. You know, the— what's it called? Iran Cell was 49% owned by, or is 49% owned by MTN. 51% is now owned by the IRGC. MTN's partner in Iran is the IRGC.

Who is? Some people might know.

Iranian or Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. The monsters, the evil mullahs, the radical Islamists that run Iran and killed 30,000 to 40,000 young people in the streets in January. That's MTN's partner. And when MTN got involved in Iran, guess who was chairman? Cyril Ramaphosa. So there's no question MTN is in serious trouble, deservedly so. And the ANC is implicated.

What's in it? Sandy asks, what's in it for Iran to fund the ANC?

The ANC is an Iran proxy. The ANC exports its evil and radical Islamist theology to the world through Hamas, through Hezbollah, through the Houthis, through the ANC. And Helen made it very clear that when they were dishing out ministries, when they were dealing with the ANC and the DA admittedly was working from weakness, not strength, which is why they ended up with the ministries that needed fixing, but had no effect on ideology and policy. Okay. Like Home Affairs doesn't really affect policy. Leon Schreiber has done an unbelievable job fixing it. ANC get the credit. So the ANC won the battle of the ministries, but Helen said the one ministry the ANC wouldn't even discuss having any DA involvement was DIRCO.

Why? Why?

If Iran hasn't been funding the ANC and the ANC isn't an Iran proxy, why would all the Islamists take control of DIRCO?

And DIRCO is?

Department of International Relations and Cooperation.

Our Foreign Affairs Department.

Our Foreign Affairs. And why did South Africa, of all countries, file the ICJ case against Israel? Iran. Follow the dots.

Jan Hendrik Sienekoll wants to know, Patrick, uh, I'm running out of questions. No more questions. Nobody's— geez, Rob, you've lost touch.

Lucky me.

Who's your nominee for president after Cyril exits? Is it still Gaetan?

Well, I said Gaetan. I never said Gaetan should be the president. I said he There are a lot of South Africans.

Now, you said you'd— he'd be your president if you ran the country. Remember, at one of these conferences, Geithner's president.

Yeah. And then Corneille and Jordan as vice presidents. Or the other way around. Those three circulate, those three, make your pick.

I said, that's what you're going with, those three.

Listen, there's some unbelievably competent people, but everybody focuses on the president. My interest is who are the ministers? Don't you want the best energy minister in charge of energy? Don't you want to get rid of Gwede Mantashe once and for all, who has destroyed the mining industry? He has destroyed the mining industry alone. We've gone from 1 million people employed in mining to under 500,000. When last was a mine opened in South Africa? Gwede Mantashe is entirely responsible. For destroying the mining industry, that man, the sooner we get rid of him and bring Neil Froneman in, or one of the 100 unbelievable people to run the mining industry, we will go, we'll never be, get beyond 20th in the world. We should be top 5 commodities company in the, in a country in the world. So I'm more interested in who the ministers are than The president.

Kerry Marx's question says, your response to Pit Larue's talk yesterday, should we be concerned about transformationism?

Yes, very.

Why?

So transformation in two senses. I believe in merit, as you'd expect. I'd rather have the best people in charge regardless of who they are, male, female, race. The ANC's had 30 years, 30 years for transformation. And what have they done? Enriched 100 of their friends through BEE, Black Elite Enrichment. It's had nothing to do with transformation, nothing. And now doubling down They want to talk about real transformation, lifting people up. The only way to lift people up is education. That's it. And we spend a fortune on education and get the worst results. So we got to fix education. We've lost a generation, by the way.

Rob, as nobody else wants to talk to you, I will. Can you believe that? Where do you see South Africa in 5 years? And I ask this because 4 and a half years ago, when you stood up in the Drakensberg on this platform and said what you said at the time, it was a shock. We saw there were hundreds of thousands of people who consumed your, your talk. There was a massive kickback against you. There were people that I know who said, how the hell can you put Rob Hersov on your platform? However, today quite a lot of people are saying the same things that you were saying 4.5 years ago. So let's go 5 years forward. When we sit here in 5 years' time at BNC 13, lucky number 13, what do you think we're going to be looking back and saying then?

So I am not as positive as everyone else about where South Africa is today. I'm not a believer in Frans Cronje's views that things are moving positively forward. I'm not a believer that there are green shoots in the economy. What are the green shoots? Commodity prices are up in South Africa, up worldwide. We benefit. There's nothing to do with fundamental change in the ANC or policy in South Africa. The rand strengthened briefly. Only because the dollar weakened. There's nothing that has improved on a fundamental basis. In fact, things are getting worse. The ANC are doubling down on their moronic policies, destructive policies, anti-white policies, and anti-private sector policies. Things are actually, in my view, getting worse. And even though Prince Michele, who will be speaking tomorrow, who's an extraordinary analyst and commentator, Even though he says the ANC will be irrelevant in 2029, I still worry that the vast majority of eligible voters in this country have absolutely no idea what's going on and will still vote on populist and tribal lines. I fear the ANC or MK or a new amalgamation of those two will still be driving this country down into the dip in the next cycle. I am 4 out of 10 on South Africa. I'm sorry.

Okay. But you're not a defeatist. You've got— you've had a fantastic exposure to the brightest minds. You have a Harvard MBA, for heaven's sake. That's the most privileged of all learnings that one could have in, in the world. Where's the solution? What do we do? How do we learn from you with all your experience from the way that this fairly negative approach that you have to the future, and let's say it's right, what do people do to perhaps protect themselves from being part of the, part of the victims of what clearly could occur?

So, Sakelecha and Solidaritate and Afriforum have been pushing this concept of state-proofing. You've got to state-proof yourself against the state. You've got to take control of your street, your town, your municipality in every aspect you can. Water, electricity, roads, cleaning, security, and create your own little Oranjas. In your community where you're responsible for things that happen to you day to day on your street. Now, obviously there's issues of tax, you know, minimize the tax legally. There are many ways to minimize your taxes. Okay. We hold this government together. If we collectively at the same time all refuse to pay tax, the country would collapse. And I'm not sure that would be the result we want. There could then be Balkanization, civil unrest, and real problems. But we hold the power. We need to use that power.

Surely, and I admire your enthusiasm for this, but most people, it's a bit of a step too far. If they go to Australia, Canada, or maybe the UK, isn't it just a good place to start in getting involved in civil society? You know, I look at, you know, Hermanus, you have a house in Hermanus. You see how the community here— it's not an accident that Hermanus works. It works because the citizens or the ratepayers are involved. And they— you go to a meeting here in Hermanus, you get as many people as in the hall here, 600 people pitch up. So there's also the responsibility on us. So many of us, some people who don't even vote, whine about the state of the nation. Yet there is a lot we can do. And maybe, and I get what you say, but maybe there's a, you know, a step on the road.

So two quick things, and I got one second left. There's internal, there's external. Internally, we need to get behind our political parties with real money so they have a better chance of winning. Get behind Helen Ingxauteng. Register and vote. We need to get behind the civil society of South Africa that's making a difference. AfriForum, Sakhalicha, Solidarität, Free Market Foundation, Institute of Race Relations.

Outa. Outa.

And Outa, Wayne Duvenacher. Get behind new entrants like, you know, a Prince Machele. Who knows what he's up to? Maybe he's going to tell us. Extraordinary people like that. And pray on the external front, the USS Abraham Lincoln sails south, not north. Thank you very much.

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