In this conversational interview, Robert Basil Hersov and an unnamed interlocutor (Speaker A) dissect South Africa’s current political‑economic landscape. They argue that South Africa’s foreign policy is dominated by the ANC’s anti‑Western, pro‑BRICS stance, which they view as misaligned with the country’s economic interests. Hersov alleges that Iran is bribing ANC members, a claim he deems ideologically driven and detrimental given South Africa’s trade surplus with the United States. The dialogue explores a multi‑alignment foreign‑policy approach, balancing relations with the US, China, India, and Russia while avoiding entanglement with Iran. They discuss the nation’s de‑industrialisation, noting factory closures, high electricity costs, and union intransigence, and warn against a future solely based on services. Agriculture and other potential unique selling points are mentioned as avenues for industrial revival. The conversation turns to corporate capture, describing how business, media, and politics have conspired to silence dissent, citing the “Ramaphosa moment” and the Guptas‑Zuma era as examples of state‑business collusion. Finally, they lament the silence of the inter‑faith community, recalling its anti‑apartheid activism in the 1980s, and stress the need for cross‑sector dialogue to break South Africa’s political‑economic rut.
Chapters
When you get media, big politics, and big business singing to the same tune, you can drown out the entire population. And that's what happened. China has to be reckoned with. India has to be reckoned with. Russia has to be reckoned with militarily, if not economically.
I fundamentally believe Iran is bribing members of the ANC, my opinion, and they're just following the money individually.
It feels like this economy is trying to do all things and be all things to all people. We don't have a specific focus. That's why I'm here, because if we don't have these conversations and bring people from different parts of South Africa together, then we're going to stay in the rut.
Let's talk briefly about foreign policy. So I don't want to know if you're pro-Israel, anti-Israel. I'm not interested. Just where should South Africa's foreign policy, at the moment it's The ANC's foreign policy, it's not South Africa's foreign policy. It's sort of anti-West and pro-lunatic regimes, my view. Where should it be?
I fear we, we, this, this may be one area where we, we probably disagree, but I actually, I think it should be roughly, roughly where it is.
So BRICS, BRICS direction.
I don't see us as BRICS only. I think we do. Retain strong relations with. I think we've got to balance. For me, there's no doubt that there is a power shift going on in the world right now. I do think the US is still the most powerful and important country, but I don't think it's the only game in town as it used to be after 1989, for example. China has to be reckoned with. India has to be reckoned with. Russia has to be reckoned with, militarily, if not economically. So, I think we need to play a game of balancing against these different power blocks and getting the best deal for ourselves.
So unaligned in a way.
Yeah. Yeah. Now that is the strategic thrust of South Africa's foreign policy. In practice, there may be issues where we get it right or wrong, but for me, it would be not throwing our entire lot in only with the US and Europe or with BRICS. But playing a game of what the Indians call multi-alignment. I think the best foreign minister in the world right now is Jaishankar of India.
I agree. Yeah.
We may posture in ways that give the broader population, you know, these fuzzy feelings, but are we getting the best deal for South Africa? I'm not sure.
I'll take an example. So I'd agree with you on China, India, Russia, but it makes no sense whatsoever to have any alignment with Iran, in my view. All it is, is upsets America, our second biggest trading partner, to the nth degree, and we get nothing for it. Now, I fundamentally believe Iran is bribing members of the ANC, my opinion, and they're just following the money individually. But it makes no sense for South Africa. There is no real trade between Iran and South Africa, whereas America can bring us Yeah. Huge value. So that to me is ideological idiocy. But I do agree with you on the Russia, China, and India side. Less Russia, 'cause I think they're particularly weak. We have a big trade deficit with those countries.
Yeah.
And we have a trade surplus with America. Sure. So it makes no sense to me. We can get a way better deal from America. So why not take it?
Yeah, I agree. And certainly right now, obviously what America's takes a lot of our minerals and, um, what is it? Automotive that goes that way. So, um, but I do think there's a question about what the future economy looks like as well. So we can't, we shouldn't be trading in such a way that we benefit in the present without losing the possible future.
Where do you think the economy should be in the future? And I'll just throw something in. We are de-industrializing. If you look at our, If you look at the news every other day, smelters, turbines, you know, TransAlloys and ArcelorMittal are closing factories because we can't make them work. Our electricity is too expensive. The unions are intransigent. And I think it's really bad news that we're deindustrializing.
No, it is.
Where should we be in 20 years' time? We can't be a services economy only because we won't employ enough people.
I fear that that question is beyond my intellectual pay grade at this point.
I'm not sure I could answer that.
Yeah, exactly. It feels like this economy is trying to do all things and be all things to all people. We don't have a specific focus. And the examples are out there, you know, if this economy is really going to punch above its weight, we have to be giving things to the world that they want that only we have. Obviously, we have these mineral endowments that put us at an advantage, but then we don't know what to do with them.
Agriculture.
Agriculture. I mean, one would think, and to be fair, I think that's going relatively well right now compared to what it was, but it's nowhere near where it needs to be. So I fully agree. We need to industrialize. We need to find industries. I was going to say labor intensive, but we don't know where the future is going to be of labor either. But finding what South Africa's unique selling point is to the rest of the world and really doubling down on that. Rather than just being all things to all people and trying to please every domestic and international audience.
On the corporate community in South Africa, I mean, you've said, and I've said that, you know, they really don't have a voice or it doesn't feel like they're speaking up. I've said that I feel they've been co-opted by the ANC. You know, everybody was, you know, wawa CR17.
Oh my goodness.
We love Cyril. He's a businessman. Yeah. And look where that's taken us. Nowhere. It's taken us to limbo. Do you think the corporate community is failing in its duty to stand up and give direction, for example?
Yes. And I would go one step further, Rob. I would say the New Dawn and the Ramaphoria moment was the single biggest scam we have seen in democratic history in South Africa.
Other than Al Gore and the Inconvenient Truth.
Exactly. And it was a conspiracy.
I'm afraid to say, I couldn't agree with you more.
It was a conspiracy of business, of media, and of politics all at once. And that's an unbeatable combination. When you get media, big politics, and big business singing to the same tune, you can drown out the entire population. And that's what happened. Uh, we got sold this dummy of Ramaphoria and You know, 9 years later, we're still turning the corner.
I'm so glad you said it so I don't have to say it.
Yeah. Yeah.
I couldn't agree more.
And I agree with you as well. I think corporate leaders have allowed themselves to be captured. I think what happened in the Zuma years is that the state got captured by big business.
Really?
I think in the Ramaphosa years, big business got captured by the state.
Interesting.
Yeah. And the Ramaphosa agenda captured corporate headquarters. It captured media headquarters and they all started singing to the state's tune where their role was to push back against the state.
Let me just push you a little bit on the, on the Zuma one. Yeah. I understand the Guptas took advantage of, of Zuma to a trillion-dollar degree.
Yeah.
Yeah. But which other corporate because, well, that's, that's probably fair.
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, it was Bain and SAP and things like that.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think the Gupta Empire, you know, in a well-documented way, paid the piper.
Yeah. So the corporate community has failed us. I mean, I really have. There are very few business people. I can count them on one hand that have stood up and called out the ANC and called out Cyril. The rest basically jump how high? Yeah.
You know?
Yeah. Cyril's got his favorite 5 or 6, and I won't mention names. He says, please, will you travel to America and work out a deal? Or, you know, will you handle my COVID relief fund for me? It's the same people.
Okay. Wow. Wow.
All went to private schools.
We'll chat offline.
We could chat offline. But I don't see them standing up again. I don't see them doing anything this time around. Yeah.
The faith.
The interfaith community also has been silent. In 1985, the Engelskerk stood up and said, "We cannot stand up and support apartheid anymore. We cannot hide behind the National Party, and we believe it's unsustainable." And that was one of the cracks in 1985 that was the beginning of the end, the rapid beginning of the end. Where's the faith community now? I don't hear anyone speaking up.
Yeah, it feels very divided, very factionalized. And yeah, I just don't see it really speaking about any specific issues with one voice, bringing different faiths together and then pushing government in a specific direction. So that's sad to see, 'cause as you say, there's a proud history. I mean, in the '80s as well, faith communities pushed the anti-apartheid struggle. So yes, we find ourselves— indeed, indeed. And so we find ourselves in this rut again, which we keep coming back to. And, um, it's such a difficult place to be because no single individual can pull us out of this rut. And that's, that's—
couldn't agree more.
That's why I'm here, because if we don't have these conversations and bring people from different parts of South Africa together, then we're going to stay in the rut.
