From Foster Care to Yale: Rob Henderson's Incredible Journey to Success

I think Naval has a line like this about whatever ambition is, the pact you make with yourself to be unhappy until you succeed, or something along those lines. And that's basically what it is, right? Like, even if it's not a conscious, like, thought that you have, the implicit belief is, like, once I reach whatever, like, once I reach the next promotion, once I make this much money, I reach this benchmark in my bank account or have this number of subscribers or followers or what have you, then, like, then I. Then I'll. Then I can be happy, right? Or, like, that's the target. And I can't be happy until I meet that goal.

Rob, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. So grateful because you came on episode 47, and now we're back in February of 2020, when this is published, or 2024. Excuse me, 2020 was when we first recorded. And I'm curious, why is In N Out your favorite restaurant?

Yeah, well, hey, Danny Yatz, It's. It's great to be back. Yeah, In N Out is my favorite restaurant because it was really the only restaurant I went to when I was a kid growing up in foster homes in Los Angeles. So my social worker, who was responsible for my case, she would come chicken on me every few weeks, and typically she'd take me to In N Out. And, you know, it's funny, I used to think that was her favorite place to eat because that's the only time I ever went out anywhere to eat, and that's the only place she ever took me. But, you know, in hindsight, it was probably because she had a huge caseload, and in and out was like, you know, among the choices for fast food, it was the best one. And so it just became like that. That eating establishment became intertwined with this sort of attachment I had to Jerry, my social worker, because she was the only reliable adult figure, the only one that I saw on a regular basis, you know, and it was, yeah, strange. A strange feeling that my attachment to her, my positive regard for her became intertwined with this restaurant. And so now, you know, it's funny, there's. There's psychology research indicating that the sense of smell is the strongest. It's the sense that is the most closely intertwined with memory. And so when you see things from your childhood or you hear a song from your childhood, those might activate things. But when you smell something, that seems to have the strongest effect in bringing you back to that period of your life. And so now every single time I step into an In N Out And I smell the whatever, the fries and the food, the onions, whatever. Yeah, it does bring me back, and it's kind of this bittersweet feeling because, of course, living in foster care isn't a great experience, but it does sort of bring me back to those rare moments of joy when I was with my social worker, and she'd sort of check in on me and ask how things are going or how I'm feeling or, you know, ask if I wanted some more fries or, you know, it was just having an adult around that was looking after me.

Yeah. And it's. It's interesting. Even when I asked the question and hear your response, it's like there's. There's a real heaviness in how you responded. And I could understand the heaviness from going through your book Troubled, which is out either now or very soon for those listening. And it's a memoir of your life. And it's. You've lived so many lives in such. I mean, what are you, 34, 35 years old?

I'm 34, yeah.

So you're 34 years old. You live so many lives. And the. The darkness that it appears and it feels like even from hearing you speak, and it appears after reading, like, it's. It's remarkable to. To witness. And it's. It's really special to. To be in your presence because, like, I. Most people wouldn't. Most people wouldn't. Right. And by virtue of the statistics.

So, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's. That's. That is a point that I wanted to. To dwell on at some length in the book was that, you know, it's. It's. It's. I'm in a weird position because I lived a very sort of statistically anomalous life. And so on the one hand, I did want to communicate the lessons I learned and the mindset that is required to sort of rise above those impoverished and chaotic circumstances. But I also wanted to shed some light on what is the sort of typical outcome of someone in that environment, how you can't necessarily expect kids in general or every kid to be able to follow the same path that I followed. And so I do speak to some extent about some of my friends that I grew up with, the outcomes of my friends in high school. What are the statistical data points for kids who are in foster care or who grew up very poor in the U.S. and so, yeah, it was a weird sort of like, tightrope to walk that, you know, here's what you need to do if you want to have Any hope of improving your circumstances while at the same time saying that, look, even if every single kid follows these, my outcome is far from guaranteed. It's definitely, it will improve it. But as far as how much, you can't necessarily expect to have the same kind of trajectory I had. And so, yeah, I just think both of those two things, keeping them in mind was a challenge as I wrote the book.

How much of that heaviness from the first 18 years have you not accepted or not let go of yet?

You know, when I was writing the book, it was surprising to me how fresh some of the feelings were, you know, you know, I figured, you know, I put a lot of this stuff behind me, I'm doing well in my life now. I have no reason to complain. It almost feels like childish to like go back and talk about, oh, you know, poor me, I had this poor upbringing, whatever, and, but you know, I, if I wanted the book to be honest and I wanted it to be raw and really sort of tell the story in the most authentic way, I had to go back and really communicate what I was feeling at that time. You know, at the time when I'm a 7 year old foster kid with no knowledge that, oh, in 20 some years he's, you know, you're going to be a graduate of some fancy colleges and you're going to be doing well and you're going to have a big writing platform and on and on. It's just, you know, when you, when you don't have that, what are you thinking at age 7 when your circumstances are so bleak and you look around and other kids are also having difficulties in their lives. And so I wanted to communicate that story. How much of the heaviness I think now, you know, it's, it's fine, you know, it's, it's there on occasion, it flares up. I mean, it's funny, like I'm, I can feel it sometimes just the, you know, it's hard to separate nature and nurture. How much of this is just sort of, you know, built in from the start and how much of it is due to those early life experiences. Both play some role for sure. But, you know, I will get angry and I can get, you know, I, I, in the book, I communicate what a temper I had when I was a teenager and in my early 20s. And even now, you know, I'm at a hotel right now in Nashville. I won't say which one, but you know, I, I got, I arrived late at night yesterday. The hot water wasn't working. In the sink or the shower. I call down to the front desk and you know, on and on like they, they keep telling me maintenance is coming. I finally go down there and ask to talk to the manager who's some middle aged guy, and he's giving me the run around. And you know, my, my immediate impulse is to like, just get into it with him and I have to hold it back and like, be an adult, be a, you know, be a sensible person. But you know, that same situation when I'm 19 years old, you know, who knows where that could have gone. So with the benefit of age and maturity and maybe a little bit of wisdom, I'm able to sort of put it behind me and sort of, you know, be a, be a, be a mature adult. But you know, those chaotic early life experiences, especially when you don't have adult figures sort of telling you how to behave or what's expected or how to just sort of be a civilized human being. You know, your, your methods of resolving conflicts can be, you know, not, not, not helpful. So yeah, I don't know if this is answering the heaviness. It's, it's still there, but I'm able to sort of contain it, at least in my behavior, if not necessarily inside, internally.

Yeah. So how it sounds to me is you, it comes up sometimes and you just push it down and you're like, I don't need to feel that right now. I'm a civilized adult.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't feel it nearly as often as I did, you know, 15 years ago or something. It flares up usually, like when I'm in it. Like, okay, so like tired, hungry, jet lagged, like those kinds of vulnerable mental states or physical states. But day to day, you know, that's the other thing. Like, you know, I think a lot of people who've never really experienced extreme poverty or disorder in their life when there's very little friction, right? Like when you, oh, something like you need something, oh, you have money, pay for it, or oh, you need someone to fix something, like, oh, you can get it done, or you know, like you need an appointment, no issue, you know, front of the line because you have whatever special pass. But when you're poor and you know, like every dollar counts and every minute counts and you don't have a lot of time or energy left over, then you're in a much more sort of stressful mental state and any little thing that contributes additional stress can set you off, you know, sent you over the edge. So, you know, I I guess, yeah, that's. That's another sort of helpful factor. It's not, you know, I don't want to. I guess I don't want to credit myself too much or pat myself too much on the back. I don't have it under control. The other thing is I just have more money, more time, more education, more access. All the things that go along with sort of climbing that American class ladder of things will work out. And you can sort of rest assured at a certain level of sort of class income, education, things will work out. But when you're on that teetering edge of poverty or just sort of squalor, things aren't necessarily going to work out. And you know that. And that can also contribute to sort of temperament and anger and so on.

When did you realize, oh, I'm in a completely different stratosphere of quote unquote, making it.

When did I realize this is going to sound. I don't know if this is like the. The best answer, but the answer that immediately comes to mind. The other day I was so. I live with my girlfriend. We were in our apartment, and, you know, I was like, packing to. To travel here back, you know, and to Nashville. And I realized I had five sweaters. And I grew up my entire life one sweater, maybe two, maybe I had a backup sweater. And I was like, how the hell do I have five sweaters? Like, you know, that's like a. That's like a very, you know, I. A very, like a luxurious, you know, I felt like a king, you know, seeing these five sweaters laid out on the bed. I was pack. As I was packing up my luggage. I don't know if that means I made it. You know, you could get five sweaters from Goodwill or whatever. But, you know, that was a feeling of like, wow, I have, like, more clothes than I need. And if I lost my sweater, if I lost my backup sweater, I still have three more sweaters. The other thing is, I was. I was having this conversation actually the other day with. With a mutual friend of ours, Chris Williamson. And, you know, I was telling him this story when I was 19 of how I had just moved off the military base I was stationed at when I was in the Air Force, and how, you know, I was 19. I didn't like. I had never really, like, been in that situation where I, you know, had to. Had to, like, figure out how to, like, negotiate with landlords and all this stuff. And I was like, completely taken by surprise that when I rented this house with my friends, my military friends, you have to pay first month's rent, last month's rent, and a security deposit. And so, you know, between those three payments, plus, you know, all the other things I had to take care of, like, suddenly I was like, basically like, in the single digits in my bank account. And then I couldn't afford to buy a belt. And so I went, like two weeks without a belt until my next paycheck. And now I have actually have two belts now. But, you know, little things like that I'll just remember, like, oh, wow, like, I have all the clothes I need. I have, you know, everything that. And if I lost all my clothes, I could just easily replace the wardrobe, no issue. And that is just. I still haven't fully adjusted to that.

Yeah. And beyond the material, what about the difference in the love that you feel? I know. For example, I'm reading the story about how you're seven years old and you're drowning in a pool, and your caretaker, I believe her name is Ms. Martinez, comes over to you and is like, what are you doing in that pool? And is like, on the phone while you're drowning, while she sees your drowning. It's like, what in the world is going on there? And so that must have been an experience that you felt time and time again of not feeling loved.

Yeah, that was really tough. I mean, even just rewriting that, it was hard, man. Like, she was just a very cold woman. You know, that's just, you know, that's just an example of, like, the. The sterility and the problems with the foster care system is that they're just so overloaded. I mean, I just read this morning this is, you know, I don't remember the source, but it. Basically, the claim was that the LA county foster care system is actually the most overcrowded in America and that they have, like, the fewest number of foster parents and the most number of children. And so getting placements in general is an extreme challenge. And so basically, the system can't be, like, that picky. If a foster parent is neglectful or cruel, you know, like, short of, like, obvious, like, severe abuse or something, they're gonna, you know, they're not gonna let a kid stay there. But beyond that, they will look the other way if a parent is less than optimal. And so, you know, I had a lot of those experiences. Most of it was straight up neglect. Like, Mrs. Martinez never hit me or never, like, burned me or never did anything, like, overtly cruel, but she would just, like, if I would hurt myself or get in a bad situation. Or something. She would just kind of like, shrug her shoulders or shake her head and just, you know, kind of carry on with her business and let me deal with it as a little kid. And so, yeah, the drowning episode where she kind of reluctantly pulled me out of the pool after letting me drown for, you know, what felt like an eternity was probably only a few minutes. So the love I feel, I mean, I don't know, man. Like, I can. I. I can feel it, I guess it's hard. It's hard. Like, I just. I've never been that much of a sort of touchy feely, emotional person. And I don't know. Actually, that's one of those things where, like. Because I know people who have had, like, pretty good upbringings and still, like, have issues with excite, accepting love and feeling the love. And so it's again, like, hard to separate nature and nurture. I do feel it, actually, for my sister, who I write about in my book. She's one person where I. I don't really. It's not a struggle to feel love for her or to care about her or to, you know, want her to do well in her life. I was just at her wedding a couple months ago and, you know, I. I delivered a wedding speech and, you know, I just written this book, so I had all of these memories swirling around in the back of my mind. And, you know, so I gave this speech and it was like, you know, very heavy and, you know, very honest about how much I cared about her. And, you know, she was crying at the end of it. And, you know, later, the. The wedding DJ came up to me and he was like, you know, he was like, man, I was on the verge of tears for that. He was like, you know, I've. I've been doing, you know, weddings for. I mean, I've been working weddings for 10 years, and that was probably the best wedding speech I ever heard. And, you know, I was like, you know, that was, you know, that to me, I guess, is like a. A sign that I guess I am capable of giving and receiving it. But it's hard with other people to fully accept it or to trust it simply because, you know, I. Living in different foster homes, changing them, you know, changing different homes every few months, being taken from my mother at such a young age, never knowing my dad, like, all of those experiences, you know, they do take a toll on a. On a young child's mind. And so developing attachments and bonds and trust and all those things, it becomes harder. Whereas, yeah, for my sister, I Never really had any difficulties there. And she is like. I can just tell you, she's just like a very good person where, you know, for other. Other people, it's. You know, I didn't grow up with them. I don't necessarily know for sure. And so there's always that sort of lingering feeling in the back of my mind. But, you know, it's. It's a hard thing, you know. Like, I've read these accounts of other adoptees and people who lived in orphanages or foster care and so on, and they have a lot of difficulty with, you know, love and care and attachment and feelings. And, you know, one thing that I'm glad that I experienced a lot in my life was that. So in the foster homes, I was always around little kids. Of course, I was a little kid. A lot of other foster kids. I was comfortable with that environment, basically. And then later, and I discussed this in the book, my mom, after she and my adoptive father divorce, you know, she's my adoptive mom. In this case. She. My adoptive father, divorced. My mom gets into this relationship with this woman. And throughout my adolescence, Shelly, my surrogate mother, she was my mother's partner. She had teenage daughters who had kids. You know, they were teen moms. And so, you know, I just grew up in a home with a lot of babies and children and whatever, and so. And I feel, like, overwhelming love and care for small kids. And so I don't really feel, like, apprehensive. Like, I know I'd probably be a pretty good dad. I'm comfortable around babies. Like, I see other young guys sometimes, and, like, they see a baby and they're just like, oh, I don't know how to hold a baby. Or, you know, they get awkward around kids or something. And I have none of that. So, you know, when I. When I see a kid or a baby or something, like, you know, I do feel warmth, and I do feel, like, that sort of protective instinct kicking in. So, you know, I think those feelings do, you know, they're. They're helpful. They're. They're nice to, like, when I feel them, I. It's nice to know that I'm capable of that feeling.

Yeah. And it. It's interesting. So your sister and babies are the two places where you're, like, fully trusting of the love that you feel. What. What do you think it would take to feel that for other adults and be more comfortable feeling that for other adults?

Uh, what it would take. I mean, in. Realistically, I have no idea. I mean, I just don't know, you know, I think that probably the reason is because I knew my sister from when we were very small children. And basically the first thing she ever did for me was give me half of her toys and, you know, was just like extremely nice to me from the beginning. And so I just had that knowledge and, you know, that that's who she was. And with babies, of course, and little kids, like, they're just, you know, they're innocent. Whereas for older people and adults and stuff, you know, there is that sort of, you know, you don't know for certain if you can fully trust, you know, I've been in relationships. I can feel it, you know, I can. You know, I mean, I hope I'm a better boyfriend now than I was, you know, decade plus ago. I used to not be a good, you know, not a good person to be in a relationship with, but you know, what it would take. I mean, I don't know. You know, I also think sometimes that, like, the feelings can be a little bit overrated might be a strong word, but I think behavior counts more, right? Like towards my adoptive mom. I care about her and I want her to do well in her life. And even if, you know, we've had our differences in the past, and even if she wasn't always the best sort of caregiver when I was growing up, you know, in the end what matters is, like, I make sure she's taken care of and that she's doing well in her life and that, you know, whatever she needs, I can, I could help her with that. Whereas I know other people who, you know, they claim to care and love someone, and maybe they do, but then in their actions they behave abominably. So, you know, I assign more, more value to behavior, I think.

Yeah, well, it's. It's interesting because if. If you have more difficulty feeling it, then of course you would attribute more, more value to the behavior of it. But why not both?

Yeah, I don't know why not both. I mean, I think it's hard to. I think. So behavior is something that's like, modifiable. You can actually, you know, do something you don't feel like doing in your actions. I think it's much harder to change a feeling, right? Like something as simple as, like, the gym. I may not want to go. I may, like, hate every second of it, but I can, like, physically force myself to go. I can't really force myself to love the gym, but I can force myself to work out. And I think for feelings or relationships, I mean, I kind of think about it in the same way. I think it's interesting because you could.

Let go of your. Your hatred of the thing. So, like, if you. If you hate going to the gym and you still go, you could say, okay, but I'm here. So, like, let me let go of the attachment to not liking it. And so. So there are things, obviously in the way, understandably so, that are blocking your. Your feeling of love in some sense. And it's like letting go of those things must be so difficult because it's ingrained in your being for so long and there's so much resentment that's been built up. But if you let go of that, you could feel the love, and you can also have the action as well. Easier said than done. Yes. And I'm not here saying that that's. That's 100 possible in this moment, but I'd like.

Yeah, I mean, probably eventually, you know, like, things change. People change and evolve and adapt and who knows, maybe, you know, you know, it could happen later. I mean, I will say, like, I'm. I'm probably more. I'm more trusting and like, generally in a. A. More what? Like, just sort of a. I'm just like a nicer, softer person, man. Like, I'm. I'm. You know, when I reread, like, the chapters of my book when I, you know, like, the middling chapters when I'm a young adult and stuff, like, I'm just like a much nicer, softer person, you know, it's like, surprise, you know, I'm looking at old photos of myself from, like, my air force days or whatever, and I'm like, you know, I can just see, like, in my eyes that I was an angrier person. And now I'm like, you know, I'm pretty easygoing, and, you know, it's. It's just different. So, yeah, who knows? Maybe another five years, another 10 years, you know, things. All things will keep evolving in that direction.

Yeah, I believe it. And it's. It's really cool to see the evolution and growth, particularly for someone who is seemingly experienced so many of the different levels of consciousness and. So when did you realize you were different than other kids?

Huh? I mean, probably the earliest memories when I realized I was different than other kids was when I would watch tv. So, you know, like, the first and second foster homes I lived in, when I started to sort of come online and sort of, like, take in details of my surroundings. You know, we'd watch TV and I would watch, I don't know. Family Matters or Roseanne or something. And I was like, yeah, this is like, you know, these kids aren't moving all the time. They're just like with their mom and dad and like they have a mom and dad. And then I'd go to school and, you know, some of the kids, you know, I knew, like, most, most of the kids in my school weren't foster kids. A lot of them did come from like single parent homes or whatever, but they weren't foster kids. And so I started to understand, yeah, there was something different about me. And then even later after I was adopted and I did have a mom and a dad, and then later just a mom, you know, to say like, you know, I was adopted, it like I knew that it set me apart. There was something unusual about it or atypical. And other kids, you know, most other kids aren't adopted. And so, yeah, it kind of, from from the beginning, maybe three or four years old and then all the way through. And then, you know, by the time you're an adult, no one asks about that anymore. It's not like a big part of your life anymore. But as a kid, it was sort of always hovering in the background of, you know. Yeah, like not having a dad or like, you know, not having my, my real parents around or. Yeah, just having that, that experience. Yeah, it was, yeah, it did feel. Yeah, I, I could feel like a little bit different or a little bit weird compared to some of the other kids.

And then what about different from the opposite end? Meaning different like exceptional. When did you realize you were exceptional?

I mean, I don't really know if I ever felt that feeling. I mean, there were like kind of glimmers of it throughout my youth. Maybe the first time was when, I mean, so, so I had a lot of difficulty with reading when I was a kid. There was a period where, you know, I was changing schools every couple of months when I was in the foster homes in la and I was doing so poorly in school that the, the foster care system, the social worker and the state of California thought I had a learning disability. The teacher thought I had a learning disability. And I was tested way below average on my IQ score and it was still within the range of average, but below. So they concluded I didn't have a learning disability. But I wondered in hindsight, it's like, you're making this kid change school all the time and he's doing badly in school and the first thing you jump to is, oh, he has a learning disability. That's just insane. But then I had to teach myself how to read. And then when I was adopted and had a bit of stability in my life, so I was eight years old by this point. I got third place in the school spelling bee. And the fact that I even qualified to enter the spelling bee in the first place was a surprise to me. And I think it was a surprise to my adoptive parents too because they had the reports from my social worker, like, oh, he's having some difficulty in school, he may need a little bit of extra help, whatever. And instead like, what happened was like, I was actually doing really well. And then, yeah, middle school, I was doing well too. I always liked to read. That was the other thing. You know, my friends weren't really big readers. You know, it was funny, someone at Cambridge asked me, you know, hey, did your have your friends from high school, have they read your book? And I'm like, they've read like little parts of it that they're in because they want to like read about themselves. But like, they're not going to read the book. They're just not, they're not those guys. Like, they're not readers, man. And so, but I was a reader and I liked to read. I'd go to the school library, the librarian knew me by first name basis. Teachers would sometimes say, like, you're a smart kid, you know, especially later, like as the sort of drama in my family and all of this sort of disorder continued to evolve into my teenage years and I was doing poorly in school again. Teachers would spot that I was probably a pretty sharp kid and they would tell me so. And then they would just ask me, like, what's going on? Like, why are you not focused? Or why aren't you doing your homework? Or you know, why are you squandering your potential? And that's a point that I, that I make in the, throughout the book, which is that like, a lot of people think that the reason why kids from unpromising situations don't do well is because the teachers aren't, you know, the schools aren't receiving enough funding, the teachers aren't doing a good enough job on and on. And maybe those things are true. I'm sure, you know, schools could use more funding and all those things, but teachers, you know, the people who choose the teaching profession tend to like kids and they tend to want kids to do well and are usually pretty good at spotting kids who have some academic inclination. And my teachers did, you know, they were no exception to that. And, but my, my home life was such a mess and the Place that I came from was so disruptive to my, you know, learning that I had very little interest in schooling or homework or doing well or any of those things. You know, college wasn't really a serious possibility to me. And so, you know, I. I guess all of those things, right? Like, I knew I was a little different. I was doing the same things as them, but I was also, you know, reading and doing other things that they weren't doing to my knowledge. You know, I was the only one among my friends that my teachers would like, personally pull aside and say, like, you know, you could go to college if you just focused. And I was just like this angry kid who, you know, if an adult told me to do something, like my. My initial impulse was always to do the opposite or tell them to F off or whatever. I don't know if we can swear on this podcast, but, you know, just angry.

Yeah, you can if you'd like. It's your world.

All right.

And so after that, you joined the Air Force?

Yes.

And what went into the decision to do that?

I mean, it was like half baked, half impulsive. So I knew I wasn't going to college. I knew I didn't want to stay in Red Bluff, California, this kind of dusty, working class town. You know, part of it was, I guess this is another thing that maybe separated me a little bit from my friends was that, like, I would kind of attempt to glimpse into the future and see, like, okay, if we keep doing this, what is our life going to look like in five years or 10 years? And I worked. I had two different jobs in high school, so I was a dishwasher and a busboy at restaurant. And then later I was a bag boy at a grocery store. And the kinds of guys I worked with, like, you know, a lot of them were in there. Like some of them, like their mid, late 20s, you know, like, they graduated from the same high school that I was at. They were still working the same job that they had when they were 16 or 17. And, you know, I remember at the time it was kind of cool. Like, they'd buy beer for my friends and me or like, hook us up with weed or whatever, but at the same time it was like, weird that. And I remember thinking, like, it's. It is strange that, like, these, like, why would you buy beer for a bunch of kids? Or like, why would you, you know, at age 25, try to, like, hang out at a high school party? You know, there's like, do I want to be 25 years old hanging out with a bunch of 16 or 17 year olds. Not really, but that was like, where things were going. And then the other thing was, you know, I. Again, like, so I had one teacher who took, you know, he spotted something in me. He pulled me aside and he's like, oh, you know, maybe. Maybe the military would be a good thing for you to do. He showed me a picture. He pulled up a picture of himself on his computer of him in his Air Force uniform. And I thought, oh, that looks kind of cool. And then I lived with my friends, my friend and his dad and his brother. My senior year of high school, his dad was in the military. He also recommended it to me. And so, you know, and then I went to the recruiter. So one of my friends in high school was. Was kind of interested in joining. I went with him to the recruiter. And so, like, it was just kind of in the. In the air, sort of in the ambient environment of, you know, the military was a series option. It was something basically at my high school, if you were, you know, somewhat ambitious, you know, you didn't have good grades and. But you wanted to get out of there. That was like, you know, this was 2007 when I joined. I was 17 years old. And so, you know, this was like the military. We had two wars going on. There was like, you know, it was just more on people's radar, the military in general. So, you know, but then when I went, you know, I, I was like, very unprepared when I took the test. I didn't even, like, know how the job selection process went. I just went to MEPs, which is like this sort of, you know, this, this screening process you have to go through. And they just like listed a bunch of jobs in front of me. And I'm like reading the descriptions that didn't really, like, I didn't know what they meant and like, oh, I just picked the job that sounded cool and went with it and that was it, man. Like, you know, I graduated high school, I think it was like June, and shipped out for basic training in August, you know, like eight weeks later, and had to have my mom sign a permission slip, essentially because I was 17. So I was underage. And, you know, she was, you know, she was a little concerned, but I was like, you know, if I don't, if I, like, don't do this, like, I'm gonna like, run away or go do something else. Like, I'm not just going to, like, hang out in Red Bluff. I'm going to find somewhere to go or Somewhere to be. I can't stay here. So, yeah, I was the youngest guy in my military unit. 17 years old. And yeah, I was just like in a, in a hurry to just get out of there and start over. And in hindsight, it was probably the best decision I made because it did immediately get me out of that environment and, you know, give me new peers, a new environment, you know, new atmosphere, new goals. Just everything was completely different. And, you know, James Clear has, you know, he, he talks about, you know, building good habits and how you need like a rigid structure and, you know, just sort of sticking to routines and all those kinds of things. And I, you know, I had that, I had that in the military. Right. Like, just everything was tightly regulated and, and predictable and buy the book. And that was really helpful for me at that young age.

Yeah, you even talk about how being at Cambridge you would row every day or when you were there, because you could feel like I had the structure and the routine to. Because you had grown up in such an unstable environment, having the routine was helpful to ground you in some way.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. When I, when I first got the king. So this is before the lockdown began, when I started my PhD, you know, 2018 through early, yeah, 2018 through early 2020, I would row and yeah, you had to be at the boathouse by, I think, 5:45am and so, you know, I'd wake up and, you know, to just know like, okay, that's the routine. I'm going to be in bed by whatever, 10:00pm, up at 5:30, row for two hours, be in the office by 8:00 clock, you know, just like, I know what the day is going to look like in advance and to just have that structured routine built in, I need that. You know, I knew other PhD students who, it was just sort of second nature to them how to get shit done. Maybe they'd roll out of bed after a night at the pub. They'd roll out of bed at 10:45 and kind of get the coffee and finally roll in the office at 1. But they knew how to. Okay, once they were focused, they knew how to do it. Whereas for me, if I start down that path, suddenly nothing's going to get done because I don't have the structure and I don't have the predictability and the routine of like, you know, which hours are dedicated to which tasks. And so now I have that. But I think by now, for me it is to some extent second nature. But I still need that a sort of Predictable routine of going to bed at the same time, waking up at the same time, which hours I'm working, which hours I'm reading, which hours I'm whatever, going to the gym. And yeah, I just have that sort of built in now and it's very, it's very helpful.

Yeah. One thing that really stuck out to me from reading the book was the how, how often no one taught you how to do something. And it's obvious when you think about it, when, if you were to think about in hindsight, but it is clear how, how much you can take for granted if you come from a two parent household. Just like your mom and dad saying, do this, do this, this is the way you eat, this is the way you do this, this is what you read this. And it's like what was it like to constantly have to learn things yourself?

I mean it taught me to be sort of very self sufficient and resourceful. I mean one thing that I didn't have that I see like a lot of people doing now, I mean not even necessarily just kids from single parent homes or kids from environments where they didn't have a lot of oversight or mentorship, but like, you know, like immigrants, right? Like they don't necessarily know how to like which offices to go for which things. And so they just turned to Google. And I didn't really have that. Like Google existed but not like it existed now. This is like the mid 2000s. The Internet was like a thing, but not like it is now. We didn't have smartphones, right? Like I had like some like cheap prepaid Motorola thing. I didn't get that till I think my sophomore year of high school. And it was just like, you know, this pixelated little thing that, you know, you could text, you know, send whatever 10 cents to send a text message. And it was nothing like today where you could literally Google any question on the planet from wherever you are. And so yeah, it was like, it was a weird thing where I would like ask, I would, I guess maybe I became more inquisitive. I would ask people questions or I would look things up. I read a lot. I learned how to like go to the library and search like reference books. Later in the military. Fortunately, you know, like there were just like older guys there who could just offer advice or like how to whatever, like lease a car or like how to whatever, like, like where the best places to go to like find a place to rent or how to deal with whatever. All of, you know, all of this whatever, like the, the people I don't do people still say the term adulting, but, like, how to be an adult. Right? Like, those kinds of things. And I didn't really have that, so I kind of learned on my own. And it's weird now, man. Like, when I, like, I grew up my whole life with. Without a father, and none of my friends had fathers really. I mean, one of them did, but he was, like, kind of an absentee dad. But now, like, after entering college and after sort of entering this sort of more educated environment where basically all of my friends have dads, all of my college educated friends have dads, and they'll, like, hear them reference it. Like, dads are like. Dads are like fonts of wisdom for a lot of people. Where, like, people will often, you know, like, my dad always says that, or my dad tells me this, you know, more so than. Than moms. You know, I don't know what that is. Maybe just because old men like to talk more or, like, you know, dish out advice or wisdom more frequently. But, you know, my friends will often, you know, cite something their dad says. And, yeah, it was only within the last couple of years that I realized, like, yeah, that's. That's something that I didn't really have. It was. I never really felt the absence of it until I saw just how. How big of a presence it was in other people's lives. And so maybe to some extent, it did sort of lead me to be a little bit more resourceful and become a more voracious consumer of information where I'll just read a lot or just try to learn as much as I can, perhaps to some degree, just to be prepared, because I don't have that sort of parenting structure or didn't grow up with it.

How does it feel today to know that you do serve as a father figure for so many on the Internet?

Is that even true? Is that true? I don't think I serve as a father figure.

I. I would say it's true to the extent that you dish out the wisdom that people wish that they received from their father.

I mean, I. I don't even know how to answer that. I fathered and fill that role for people. I mean, that's weird to think about. I mean, I do take it. I mean, I do take what I write seriously. I try not to, like, mislead people or write, like, clickbaity bullshit or I try to push an agenda. I mean, I. You know, there are certain things that I hold with strong conviction that I believe in, but I think most of my. I Hope most of my beliefs are supported by evidence and so on. And so I do take that role seriously, and I try to be responsible with it because I can. I see it, man. Like, I see people who kind of came up around the same time as me as far as, like, building an Internet presence and a platform and everything, where they are sort of leaning more and more towards that spectrum, audience capture or that, you know, like, I can see, like the, you know, if they. If they write popular posts or whatever. Like, I can see the, like, the evolution of the headlines that they write to the point where, like, oh, they're just, like, optimizing for clicks now. And, you know, I get it, like, you know, to some degree, you know, you have to do a bit of that just to break through all the noise. But I. Everything that I write, I try to write from a place of truth, of honesty, of, like, I'm not going to write something I don't believe in or just because it'll help make this thing go viral or whatever. And, yeah, I guess, yeah, to some extent I do. You know, I receive emails from people asking for advice or asking questions or thanking me for something that helped them. A lot of students around Cambridge will email me. You know, I'm not even, you know, I don't. I have no affiliation with the university anymore, but they've heard about me or read something I wrote or saw a podcast I was on or whatever, and they'll ask me to get coffee or whatever and ask for tips. And I guess in that sense, I feel like more like a big brother role rather than a father. But I guess it's the same in principle kind of thing. And, yeah, it feels like. It feels immense because I don't want to let people down and I don't want to mislead people, even by accident. So, yeah, it's hard. It's hard, man, as my audience grows. And maybe, I don't know if you feel some of this too, of like, oh, now if you tell people something that is potentially incorrect, like, this may have, like, a material effect on people's lives. And I try to keep that in mind.

That's beautiful that you. You think about that as you've continued to grow and along those lines of. Of being a father, what. What in your view makes for a good father from the things that you have learned as well as the things that you have, the people you've seen for what you quote, unquote, didn't receive.

Oh, wow. I mean, what makes for a good father? You know, asking Asking someone without a father the question of what makes a good father. I mean. I mean, you know, I don't know if I'll be like, the right. The right source for that.

It's almost like you have the best perspective on that by virtue of the fact that you are coming in with the least amount of biases for what makes for a good father.

I mean, you know, it's. Towards the end of my book, I write this line about how one goal I have is to be a better father than the fathers that I had or really didn't have. And the bar is so low that I think even something like presence, you know, just, like, being there, I think is, I think, for a lot of kids even, you know, just. Just having that, like, even if you disagree with your father or what, Like, I think just having them around and like, knowing that. Having that rock available to you. Yeah. Of knowing that if you're in a. If you're in a tight spot or if there's a serious emergency, like, you know, you can call your dad. Right. Like, I. I can see that. And I. And I think, yeah, aspiring to be that person, building that trust. And, yeah, I think that's important, you know, winning the trust of your kids. I mean, this is something that I think a lot about, you know, because not only have had these personal experiences, but I've also, you know, read a lot of the developmental psychology research and like, you know, a lot of what I do now with my work and with my job and everything is to, like, set myself up to be in a position where I can work from home so that when I do have kids, I can be around as much as possible. I know I'll have to travel sometimes or maybe do other things, but I'm going to try to, especially the first five to seven years. That's like a critical. These are called sort of critical periods or sensitive periods. So what they're referred to in the research, those are the years when a kid really sort of learns to form attachments and develops a sense of themselves and how much they can trust others and how, you know, how to, I guess, learn to. To be a social being. And so, you know, I want to be there. And I don't. I don't necessarily think all fathers have to do that, but for me, it would be something important to essentially, like, be there and be a predictable and reliable presence for the first few years of a kid's life. But isn't to say, like, after that it doesn't matter? But it does. The first Years are, are the most important and they're also like very fleeting to too. That's the other thing is like, I think from like we have like weird sort of feeling of time based on our age. I once wrote this, this joke tweet which is only like a hat, you know, tongue in cheek, which was that, you know, by the time you're 30, you've already lived half your life, subjectively speaking, because time goes by so much faster the older you get. And so I wrote that while I was in the middle of writing my book because, you know, when I was a kid, I remember like the period between starting school and Christmas break might as well have been an eternity, right? Like, you know, you start school in September and people are talking about December and you're like, that's like, that's so far away. Like, why would you even bring that up? Whereas now it's like it's September, it's like, oh, like it's almost Christmas. It's just a completely different attitude towards time. And so when you're a little kid, you know, once your memories and your sort of consciousness comes online around three or four, like you know, every day, every week, every month, like 15 minutes, like if someone says like, oh, dinner, I'll be ready in 15 minutes, like that's, that's an eternity. And so 15 minutes with your dad, right, like as a little kid, that feels like ages to spend 15 minutes with your dad. But when you're an adult, 15 minutes is nothing. So you can take that 15 minutes and to you it doesn't feel like much. But to the kid that could mean everything. And so I think like, that's important too, is to just sort of understand from the kid's point of view what time feels like and how spending an hour or whatever with your kid, for you it may seem like, oh, that's an hour I could work, or that's an hour I could do this or that. But in a way you're paying an hour, but your child is receiving like 15 hours in terms of subjective experience of time. And so I think that's also something I'm going to, you know, try to keep in mind is just the time, the availability, the presence, the trust, all that stuff.

Such a good point. Because an hour to a five year old, the percentage of their life that they've lived and especially to their conscious memory is like, is a massive amount. And if we just don't, we don't realize that often and it's such a good helpful reframe and I think this is also something that's helped me be more disciplined as I've gotten older. It's because the time from September to December that you were talking about before, it's like, oh, that's not that much amount of time. So therefore I could just easily do the things that I said I was going to do, whereas it was very difficult to do the same thing when I was 13, 14, 15. On the point about fatherly advice, you wrote this great piece called 34 Lessons I Learned the Hard Way. And that was very much in the vein of things that you could imagine a father saying to a child. And that's how I read it at least. And I pulled out a few that I thought really stuck with me. And I was curious your perspective on them. How does that sound?

Yeah, yeah, let's go.

So number eight, I had to pull out because I did this for your book, which was read at least 10 pages of a book every morning. When did you instill this habit or bring it to the forefront of your mind?

Yeah, when. Hmm. I started doing it actually when I was stationed in Germany. How old was I? I want to say I was maybe 21 or 22. I started to, by that point I was making a little bit more money. I was, you know, I was getting promoted and I was able to sort of afford. So I bought a bookshelf. I started to buy books and started this sort of fill these shelves and. And you know, I, I always enjoyed reading, but I. Before that it was kind of unstructured where, you know, I'd read a book, a few pages here, a few pages there or whatever. And at a certain point I was like, you know, I actually want to read and I actually want to like, you know, draw information out and be able to communicate and remember what I read and just do it in a more disciplined way. And so, you know, it was just kind of a self taught or self driven approach to reading where, you know, I'd wake up in the morning and drink coffee and read 10 pages and then go to work. And that was just like a, you know, a way to sort of integrate that habit into a very busy life. I mean, I was, you know, it's just, I was working, you know, 12, sometimes 14 hours a day or I'd work like the graveyard shift. I'd work all night. And so, you know, it was just, you know, working, working 70 or 80 hours plus a week. But I still wanted to read and I still enjoyed reading and I wanted to be able to learn something. And by that point I was slowly gaining an awareness of my own curiosity and accepting it and recognizing that maybe at some point I would actually go to college and I would actually further my formal education. And, you know, I couldn't do it at that time because I was working and I had other obligations. But reading books was like a way to just sort of, I guess, fill in some of the gaps or just sort of satisfy my curiosities. And so I've maintained that now for probably more than a decade now. 10, you know, 10 pages as a minimum, and it's grown and it sort of waxes and wanes. I mean, there are periods where, you know, I don't read at all because I have things to do or whatever, but I. That is like, sort of default of just like carrying a book around or a Kindle or whatever, and just 10 pages a day, knock it out. And, you know, you can. With. With 10 pages a day, you know, that's a book a month. So, you know, just stick with it and you can get a lot of reading done.

Yeah, it's really remarkable what 10 pages can do when it's compounded. I'm curious. What was, you know, we mentioned your childhood being so dark and there's so much darkness there. What were the first glimmers of light after. After that. That period of. Of your life?

The glimmers? I mean, there were glimmers of light even when I was a kid. I mean, I guess, like, you know, it's funny, like, as I was writing the book, especially, like, the first half, just covering, you know, age, what, 0 to 17, essentially, I. I tried to, like, introduce a little bit of humor, a little bit of levity. Like, I tried to, like, make sure it wasn't just completely, relentlessly bleak. But even. Even with those attempts, people still kind of come away like, this is pretty heavy. And, you know, I'm like, yeah, I guess it is. Like, it's just. That was, you know, these are. This is just what happened. But, you know, throughout, there were adults that look, you know, attempted to look after me or give me good advice. I mean, teachers and, you know, my mom and Shelly for a while, you know, attempted to build a stable home for us, and they were temporarily successful. You know, my friends and I at the time, we had a lot of fun together. Not always in the safest or wisest ways, but, you know, we did. But then, like, the glimmers of hope later, I mean, you know, one reason why I opened the book the way that I did with. So chapter one, I Opened with my graduation at Yale because I knew, like, this is about to. We're about to, like, dive into some pretty, you know, heavy shit. And so I want, like, the reader to know this is going to end up in a pretty good place. But we just got to, like, you know, if you want to know the truth of what the, you know, because if I dived right in from the beginning of. Of, you know, being taken into foster care, I think it might have been too much for the readers, for a lot of readers anyway, but, like, the real glimmers, you know, of course, with my sister and the memories I have with her. And then as an adult later, of, you know, once college started to sort of become a serious possibility, once it started to take shape in my mind. And, you know, I think that too, six, you know, achieving some success in the military, early promotions and getting some awards and stuff, that was really cool, realizing that I was capable of more than I thought. And then later, when I realized, you know, I could actually go to college and I could actually do pretty well in my life, you know, I tell this story, this guy at the boxing gym that I went to when I was a kid, he said, you know, you're going to do well no matter where you end up. And for some reason, that had always stayed in my mind. It stays in my mind, you know, to this day. It's. It's been, you know, two decades now since he told me that. And once I started to realize that was actually true. Yeah, like the. The confidence in myself, I guess, is what it was like. That was really the. The true glimmer was just like, knowing that I had the inner resources to succeed. I just had to sort of accept what I wanted and go for it and stop letting whatever, you know, all of the. The bad memories and the bad experiences and all of the stuff that I could, you know, just to not let it hold me. Hold me down or hold me back and to just go for what I wanted without reservation and without fear of failure or without judgment or, you know, the possibility of disappointing other people or myself. You know, I have this line early, I think, in the preface about how if you're a kid and adults repeatedly let you down, then you learn to let yourself down. And so initially, that was my experience of just adults letting me down repeatedly. And then I started to make bad decisions later as a teenager and as a young adult. And once I got past both of those hurdles of, okay, adults letting me down now letting myself down, and engaging in these sort of self defeating behaviors. Once I can get past that, those two hurdles and accept what I wanted and go and strive for it, then I think that's kind of one of the, in the books, the kind of turning point when I start applying to college and start really going for what I wanted.

Yeah, I mean, I can only imagine how difficult that would be. First to hear from everyone else that they've let you down and then to live in their perspective by letting yourself down and then overcoming that. And how joyous it must feel to know that you are capable and you do have confidence in. What made the boxing coach say that.

It was so it wasn't the coach, it was another student, but he was an older guy. He was older than the coach actually. He was like essentially a semi retired high school guidance counselor. He would see me so I couldn't afford the classes every month and so I would stick around and stay over and help to mop up the floors or wipe down the equipment and just kind of hang out. And so he would see me doing this and I think he could just like, oh, here's a good kid who's helping out around the gym. And you know, he doesn't have any money, but he's just trying to, you know, work his way to pay through, pay for these, these, these lessons. And so he and I would talk and chit chat and whatever. And I mean, to be fair, he wasn't like entirely aware of like, you know, my other activities with my friends and like vandalizing buildings and you know, drinking and all this other stuff that we were doing. But you know, he just saw me in this like one context where I was like, you know, behaving pretty well, but you know, just through talking with him and interacting with him and you know, he was a, you know, high school guidance counselor, so he had a pretty good sense of like, you know, speaking to teenagers who was, you know, capable of doing good things in their lives if they put their mind to it. And, and maybe who, who would need a lot more help to do that. And so yeah, I think he just saw, saw me in that environment, you know, and it's funny, like, even, even after, I mean the, the struggle never fully ends because even after going through, you know, the, the adults letting me down, me letting myself down, and then like now I'm doing well in my life, but now I have to what, like, like demonstrating to other people that I'm, I, I did actually rise above my circumstances and so on. You know, I was talking to, to my girlfriend. This was, this was A couple of years ago, before I'd met her parents. And, you know, to their credit, like, they. When I met them, and they were great, and they were, you know, they were wonderful. But I remember I was nervous a couple of years ago before I'd met them, and I asked my girlfriend, you know, like, what? Like, do they know how I grew up? Like, what do they know? And all this stuff? And she's like, no, no, but, you know, we'll talk to them and everything. And I'm like, how do you. Like, how do you think they'll react? And she was very honest with me, and she said, they're probably going to be a little bit scared. Because if you think about it objectively, right, like, you, you know, your daughter brings home a guy and then you learn, like, oh, he grew up in foster homes and he used to do this, that or the other. And he was like, you know, he was in rehab and he was, you know, it's like, you know, like, okay, maybe he has accomplished some things later. But, you know, I think they're all, you know, it's reasonable to be a little bit concerned that, like, you know, who is this guy, really? And is this, like a sort of temporary blip of success, but ultimately, you know, will this. You know, how well will this end up? Is this, like, the best person that I could imagine my daughter being with? And so on. And so even then, you know, but, you know, they were accepting, I think, you know, there was. There was a little bit of concern in the beginning, but they got over it, and we get along great. But, you know, there's still that lingering feeling of, like, having to prove that, you know, I'm. I'm doing fine now and I'm not that the same person that I used to be.

And who would you be without that feeling?

The feeling? Wait, sorry, the feeling? What do you mean?

The feeling of insufficiency, inadequacy or insecurity around how you grew up.

I mean, if I didn't have that feeling, I mean, probably not much would change. Nessus. Well, no, there is, like, that sort of compensatory thing of, like, you know, I have to, like, show people that I am like a normal person. And I think if maybe if I didn't have that feeling, I maybe wouldn't do that. And, I don't know, maybe that would change people's perception of me. And that's the sort of underlying concern is that. Yeah. That people would. Would see me in a different way if I wasn't, you know, Making. Trying to make it very clear that I'm, you know, a pretty good person and whatever, you know, So I don't know. I don't actually know how. How I would be received otherwise. Yeah.

Could it be with more love? Could it be with more purity? Could it be with a feeling of, oh, this guy is not only a great guy, this guy is. Is comfortable in his skin and fully accepting of himself, so we can greater accept him?

I mean, maybe. I don't know. I don't know, maybe like, comfortable in my. I mean, I feel like I am pretty comfortable in my skin. I mean, you know, I. I can interact with people and I can talk to people and it's fine. But, you know, to just, you know, like, we still live in a. Like, even if I'm perfectly comfortable in my skin, we still live in a reality where people do sort of make, you know, they will second guess people based on where they came from and so on. Like, those things still exist in the world. And so even if I'm comfortable or don't even. Even if it doesn't occur to me, you know, I. I get it. Like, I understand, like, in certain contexts that people will, you know, like. Like someone's daughter. Right. Like, they will have. Like, in that situation, you're inevitably going to be scrutinized. It's almost like a job interview, right? Where, like, if you go into a job interview and think, I'm just going to be myself, like, if they. If my. If this guy wants to hire me, he can. But you have to be a little bit mindful of how they're receiving you throughout the interview in order to get the job. Right. And so I think, like, in those contexts, you know, it's. I don't know if it'll ever fully dissipate that feeling, you know.

Yeah, of course, you have to be mindful. Mindful of the context. And also, the more insecure you are around their perspective of you, the more likely they are to view you in a way that is not great to you. It's like.

Yeah, you know. Yeah, I think there's. Yeah, there's a. I think. Yeah, there's a. There's like a balance there. Like, I think it's. Yeah. Mindfulness, but not let it sort of be overbearing or let it sort of rule every. You know, control everything you do, but to. Yeah. Be aware of it and. Yeah. And then to accept it. Right. Like, you know, I think that because there's another way I could go into this, which is like, you know, I'm doing well in my life and. And if you're going to judge me, then you for it, you know, because, you know, I love myself and I'm doing great, you know, like, that kind of thing.

Well, that's going to the extreme. That's going to. Arrogance.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's not the truest version of you. That's a. That's a way to make yourself. Like, it doesn't seem like you would ever do that, but that's what some people go to.

Oh, yeah, I know people like this. Yeah. I know people who. Who have gone through a lot in their lives and they are doing well and they take on. They adopt this. I don't know how sincere it is, but they adopt this Persona of like, you know, like, who are you to judge me because I've done so well and this kind of thing and like, you know, like, I've climbed so. And it's like. But I. But that's the. I understand that attitude too, you know, like, I get like, that kind of feeling of. But, you know, I. Like, I don't know, you know, but I think it's unreasonable because I think it's. It's. People are people and they, you know, we're always sort of evaluating those around us to some extent. And so, you know, it's. It's something. Yeah. But again, like, for me, I don't think it's ever really been an issue. Like. No. You know, I don't think it's ever really held me back. And I think that's important to keep in mind, too, which is like, yes, you know, people can be judgy and people can kind of like, you know, whatever, like, make. Make. Make their assessments of people. But on the other hand, like, for me personally, at least, I've never. I don't think. At least I've never had, like, a serious issue with my background holding me back. And I think that reflects actually very well on people.

Yeah, it reflects well on other people and also reflects how you show up yourself with not letting it hold you back or not being so insecure about it that it does hold you back. Because if you were so insecure about it, it would hold you back in some way.

Yeah.

Going back to the fatherly advice that was so wise.

Yeah.

Number 11 is good. Conversations are made up of questions. Avoid speaking for longer than three minutes without asking one. And. And I will have to say, I went to dinner with you and I've never been so enthralled with a conversation because of how deep and wise. The questions were, and so you actually live this and practice in normal everyday conversation, maybe not necessarily podcasts, whatever, but. And the stakes are different and the framing is different, but you actually live this. And I experienced it and it was wonderful experience to eat dinner with you in Miami that, that time that we did.

Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, that's. No, I had a great, a great dinner with you that night. I mean, it was. Yeah, yeah, it's. So that, that, that, I mean, that was just through having a lot of conversations with a lot of different people in different environments, different organizations. I mean, like, I, I guess like this is, this is something that maybe I picked up just through living in so many different homes, so many different environments is just learning to get along with people and taking an interest in people, asking people questions, asking, you know, just sort of inquiring about what people's interests and hobbies and lives and opinions are. And you know, and, and I would learn through speaking with other people who were good at that, other sort of curious and open minded and just sort of social people. And I remember just feeling good, you know, when people would ask me, what do you think about this? Or what are your thoughts? And I'm like, oh, that feels so nice because it didn't happen that often. And so when it did, I took notice and realized like, oh, like that's a nice way to like make a connection with people and to make friends and to, you know, because I, I had to learn how to do that just through so many foster siblings, so many different kids, so many different homes and environments. And then later in the military, that was the other thing is like in the military I got stationed and deployed and sort of reassigned to different duty stations. And so, you know, you, I did have to sort of learn, you know, how to make friends and how to get along with different people in different units, different environment and just over time, being observant, seeing other people who were good at being social and picking up those habits and lessons and yeah, it's been. And you can tell that, like, you could tell, like if you have conversations with people who don't ask questions, it's really painful. And I've been in those situations and it's painful. But if you ask questions, at least you can get through it, right? But if no one's asking questions, there's no conversation. And then it just becomes this sort of awkwardness. And so I can have conversations with people who don't ask questions because I'll ask questions. And in some ways it sort of backfires now. And, like, where, you know, now I'm in a position where people kind of know who I am sometimes, depending on where I am in the room that.