Barry Hearn on Suing Jake Paul For MILLIONS & Becoming The No1 Sports Promoter

I don't score goals. I don't get knockouts. I get balance sheets. And I want to win. I'm Barry Hearn, president of Matrim Sport. Saudi have dominated the big fights. So have we sold our soul? Yes.

Google says you're worth 158 million. How close is Google? Well, where is influencer boxing at now?

They're very good at the hype. They're not so good at the delivery.

Did you sue Jake, Paul?

Yeah.

Did you win?

If you want loyalty, buy a dog. Got the best team in sport and.

Who do you think is the best.

Water person you've ever worked with? He can produce things that other people don't even consider. Legacy planning is better than just being famous. The envies of wealth are destroying everything.

Do you still have any beef with Frank Warren? Barry has boxing sold to Saudi Arabia?

I think pretty well every sport sold to Saudi Arabia. I mean, look, if the money's right, what do you expect me to say? You know, boxing, I've got fighters that are waiting for a call from Saudi and turning down shows in Europe because they know they get two or three or four times the money from Saudi. Yeah, it's human nature. So Saudi have dominated the big fights, and while His Excellency Turk, our sheikh's in control, then I don't see any change in that. He has big plans and he has a huge Riyadh season budget, which he gets from the main man himself. So he deals at the very highest level. You can't. You can't. How can I surmount to a fighter and say, hang on for your call, we'll put Riyadh on hold? Doesn't go like that. It's like Brentwood. Brentwood Leisure Center's begging. I've fought there. I know. Well, listen, it's. Yeah, I think I remember you telling me. Yeah. You must be mad. But no, I mean, do we take the moral high ground and say, have we sold our soul? Yes. We don't even bother to ask the question. So they came to me the other day. They want darts, Right. I said, okay, can we have alcohol? I said, no. I said, can the players have alcohol? No. So. So you want me to do a show in Riyadh, I guess, with nobody wearing fancy dress? Correct. I said, look, you know, it's going to be a disaster. How much? Needless to say. How much? We're going to Saudi in January.

Does it make you sad, though?

No, no. How could it make me sad? I mean, I'm. I think the reason why I'm so successful is I'm so superficial, you know, I'm not a deep person. I understand the basics. And the basics is, I'm not saying that we're all hookers, but there is a similarity between. You get with me, you get what you pay for. Yeah. The best, the best presentation, the best show, the best syndication, the best exposure, and we're the most expensive. So it's natural that when people really want the best, they come from a background where they're used to spending that type, you know, type of money that we haven't said. I've not seen this type of money going into relatively new sports, and I'm not seeing it spent by people that actually are craving the creation of awareness for their country for whatever reason. Some people will say sports washing, you know, on the human rights side, most people have dropped that now. And what they're saying is they're spending a few trillion dollars, trillion, trillion dollars on changing the shape of their country to effectively accommodate a tourist industry on the Red Sea. Three new cities, futuristic. I mean, I think they do have to have alcohol eventually because that's part of the tourist industry. But oil don't last forever. And they're looking at what Dubai have done, what Abu Dhabi are doing and saying we've got to have a little bit of that infrastructure and they're going flat out for it. And whatever they spend to achieve their aims makes it worthwhile in their book. And if we can be part of it, I, I embrace it. Yeah.

So I want to come back to the, the Saudi influence. But last time I spoke to you, we talked about the state of influencer boxing. Where is influencer boxing at now?

It's, it's like most sports, the top, top end of any sport, including influence books, remains strong. So Jake Paul fighting Mike Tyson on Netflix did 50 million views. Unbelievable. Did anyone expect the fight to be any good? No. But there were two big names endorsed by 30 or 40 million social media media followers. The middle end is struggling because it's not quite enough money to attract the really big names. And the bottom end is doing okay because it doesn't set out to be anything other than it is a volume operation. There are people out there trying to grow it and there's a lot of people, yourself included, that quite fancy having a little fight from time to time. It's quite exciting. I'm one and done. One and done. One and done is better than me. It's unbelievably exciting. One against one. Yeah. And it's something that perhaps it's like climbing a mountain. Perhaps we should all try it once. Yeah. But beyond that it gets dangerous. But influencer boxing misfits. Boxing is doing reasonably well. I won't say it's ever going to take away the top end of boxing. It's not. But people like to see famous people or well known people involved in the four cornered ring.

Is that something you would ever get involved in promoting?

No.

No.

I say no.

But you said you're superficial and you said you're.

That's right. At this moment in time, sitting here with you, I can categorically say we may never get involved.

Okay, so let's go with Jake Paul then. Because you said everyone expected what they got from Mike Tyson, but actually it wasn't really a fight.

No.

And like aren't people in the end going to go. This isn't entertaining anymore.

Maybe because.

Because his last few fights have not been entertaining.

But I think the tickets are sold and the dramas created on the announcements and the press conferences rather than the fight. So you've got to look at it. You are.

That's like a cheap holiday, isn't it? You get excited about going, but then it. When you go.

Absolutely. You know what, that's a very good analogy. But I think you might be too, even you might be too close to boxing. It's not a religion, it's a sport. It's not an occupation for most people.

Yeah.

But it's a thrill for everyone. Right. You know, so I don't put the same code of conduct on it. I think it's a great sport. I think it's a hard way to make your money.

Yeah.

But I can understand people wanting to just, you know, smell the grease, paint, taste the noise of the crowd or whatever, you know.

Yeah.

That it is something special and it won't produce quality because they're not qualified to do that side of the business. They're very good at the hype.

Yeah.

Not so good at the, at the delivery. Right.

It seems at the moment though, like you said with maybe Anthony Joshua Davis, it seems like the influence of boxing is merging in, in with professional boxing in some way. Yeah.

I mean again, you've got to look at the MMA scene as well because you're getting the similar sort of thing in there. There are ridiculously only 5% approximately of what I call pure sports fans. Who's a pure boxing fan? 95 are casuals. Right. Those casuals are followers of the sport via social media or through just an interest in the sport. But they do come and Go.

Yeah.

And if someone's hot within that marketplace, they will attract attention. And because of the sheer number of followers, it makes big numbers.

Yeah.

You know, the Tyson fight was a poor fight, a poor evening's entertainment. Other than, of course, on the undercard was Katie Taylor and Amando Serrano, which was one of the fights for the year.

Yeah.

So in a way, the two could almost work in harmony. Katie got a massive purse. Serrano got paid a huge amount of money as well. They delivered a fabulous fight that had the whole crowd on their feet. And then we finished off with something which probably doesn't appeal to the purist, but it was an opportunity to see something which on paper looked like a very interesting fight.

Did you sue Jake Paul?

Yes.

Oh, did you win?

Yes. Oh.

Why did you sue him?

Because he said some very naughty things about us which weren't true. He accused us of bribing judges and officials to get the result. Oh, wow. And it was as direct as that. And so the referee sued him. He sued him. He lost. We sued him for a hundred million dollars. Oh, wow. In New York.

Yeah. And did you get that amount of money?

Nowhere near, but it's always around in New York. Everything's around. Some right parking offense, $100 million. You know, you can see it happening. But that's America. So you play the game, Right. Listen, Jake Paul settled with us. It was a seven figure sum. We was happy. I don't know where we gave it some and we probably put it in our foundation. So it's not a bit. We don't consider that a business income. That's a stupidity income. And yeah, people have to learn there are rules in life that you can't break. And one thing you're never going to be allowed to do is put any doubt as to the credibility of Matron, because we take that very seriously. And is.

He kept his mouth shut since.

Oh, yes. It's an expensive mistake tonight. And one hopes that the young man has learned from that.

Yeah.

And. And we have, because it's funny, in life you don't have to be friends to do business. You know, I think Mickey Duff, the old promoter, once said about Lloyd Hunnigan, I don't like him, but I don't have to like him to manage him because it's business. And, and certainly we've. We would do a show with Jake Paul tomorrow.

Yeah.

No, we don't have nothing lost. Mistake was made, he's paid, we move on.

And is that a mindset you've learned over the years? Of being in business.

Well, because after, when you first get upset and it goes, it's very personal to you, you know, if someone lets you down or someone you trusted turns out to be a snake, it's not just the money. You, you know, and I'm not saying you want to be violent towards him, although I could understand in certain circumstances, but you're just disappointed with another human being and that actually it takes a lot of the enjoyment out of what is a fun business, you know. So what did someone say? If you want loyalty, buy a dog. It's a little bit like that. And it shouldn't and it shouldn't be, but it is. And again, as you get older, you sit in the other person's chair a little bit more, say, I'm a fighter, I've got a very short career, I got to go for the most money straight away. Irrespective of contracts I've signed or agreements I've made, the temptation is still there to jump ship. And that's where most of the problems. Money orientated. I think that these days not quite so true because the money is so huge on the really big shows that fighters now, whereas in the 60s and 70s lots of great fires, ended up penniless, these days fighters have got better advisors and they're getting more money and they'll end up, I hope, as business people where now they've lost a few brain cells because boxing is dangerous. But at the same time they've changed their life through the money that they've earned in the ring. And this is true of lots of different sports. There's a lot of very wealthy people becoming darts players where they're earning millions of pounds a year.

Right.

And I take huge amount of credit for it and a huge amount of happiness that ordinary people are changing their life because there but for God go I, you know, as a young man, I came out of the same background, you know, I wanted to do something in my life. I wanted to, I wanted to win. And winning is the same as in business as it is in sport. You prepare diligently, you sacrifice, you give 110 and then you take what God gives you.

And this seems like a good time to ask about a little bit of advice for people who maybe become good at something or, or earn a decent amount of money. But like you said, in a short window, because I know so many people come to me, ex professionals who've struggled with money. Now, what advice would you give to people?

Well, there's, there's two things for ex professionals. That they have to cope with. One is money obviously the other one is more the mental health side of they're no longer the center of attraction. The, the roar of the crowd, the smell of the grease paint and they don't realize how much they're going to miss that.

Yeah.

When they go back to their normal life. You know, I love the part of the progress on sport when you take a kid with ability, obviously he's got to have ability with the right mental attitude and be prepared to sacrifice and put the hard work in. I love it. I actually love it when I see him walking away with money. I mean Luke Littler on, on the Dark side is kidding. I mean apart from that, he's the best Christmas present I've ever had. Know he is the gift that keeps giving. But also what a lovely statement to send out. What an inspiration to other kids. You know, comes out of a house in Warrington and buys his mum and dad of, you know, five six bedroom house with a swimming pool. Do you know, you think that that's exactly what I wanted to do with my parents were what I love to have done it but unfortunately they didn't last long enough for me to do it. But I love the thought that sport can change lives like that and I, and I'm fearful of what happens when it's over. Firstly the, as I said, the coping with the change in circumstance, you know, talking to great fighters like say Frank Bruno who said suddenly I didn't have to get out of bed, suddenly I wasn't working out two or three times. I lost my focus of where I should be and I didn't cope with it very well from a financial point. Well, I always say I have the same speech to virtually every young sportsman. Pay off your mortgage at the end of the day, you know, I don't know how far you're going to go, I don't know how much you're going to make. But I want you to be able to look back on your career and say to yourself, I gave it everything. I gave it, I was the best I could be. That's essential for heal. You don't feel that you've under delivered because once you get to a certain age you can't do anything about that. It's over. So you've got this opportunity. But then secondly look at something tangible, you know, where you can say that boxing for example gave me that house. Yeah, darts gave me that house. Now in some cases the more successful you are that principle rather than try and be clever because there's a misnomer about the amount of money that professional sportsmen earn, other than Premiership footballers who are in a different class to everybody. And certain high profile boxers. Yes. Most people don't earn enough money to change their life forever. Now if you think you're going to retire at 26, 27, 28, under 30 or thereabouts, you need to have a decent nesting.

Yeah.

So when they come to you or me and they say, okay, I've retired now, you know, first thing I say to him is, right, you've got to have an activity.

Yeah.

You've got to keep an interest, you've got to have a reason for getting out of bed because otherwise the next thing you'll do is drink, then you'll gamble, then you'll start on drugs, you know, because you're always looking for that new challenge or that new high. Yeah. And you had the high before through natural causes, walking out on the field of play. Something quite unique that I'm, I've made my whole life been jealous of people that have that much adrenaline going around their body because we will never get it in business. We have good moments, great moments, but it's not the same as one against one competitions or team sports at the highest level. So my advice to people is the first thing during your career, think poor, live poor. Believe that you are where you started rather than believe where you are.

Yeah.

Because where you are is not going to last. So always say everybody, think poor. I want value for money in everything I do. As a sportsman, your job is to give value for money to the fans that watch, to the TV companies that buy the broadcast and that'll ensure your longevity. But you've got to do it at stages and it's unlikely. Not everyone turns out like Anthony Joshua, who is not only a great boxer, you know, and he's, he's getting on in years now he's. The end of his career is closer than the beginning. But also he's a smart man and he's self educated and he's learned. So he's become a decent brand or business in his own right. Most people won't hit that. But just be the best you can be and be mean as mean. Look for value in everything you do. Do not throw away. Do not listen to people that advise you on things. If people advise you on things, the first thing you must do is look at the person talking to you and ask yourself, what's his life like? He's telling me what to do now. If he doesn't have the Mansion on the hill, the private jet, the, the boats, the millions, whatever. How can he possibly advise you on what you should do with your money? So I'm always very skeptical about a lot of advisors because most of them in my view have been trained commission agents. You know, they're putting them into this fund or that fund and they're getting looked after. Basic rules of life. And I love, this is one of the reasons I love dart splayers because this, I think it goes back to Phil Taylor who was always talking about, I've got 27 houses, bud. He would not stop telling everybody how many houses he had. But actually he's very sensible. Tony Baloo. I remember when Tony knocked out his guy and won the world title and then beat David Hay. And I remember in the ring he looked at me and he went, what do I do now? I'm earning money. I've never, I've only ever dreamed of it. I said buy Liverpool. He said, what do you mean? I said just go and buy as many houses in Liverpool.

Robbie Fowler did that.

Did it. And you don't have to be greedy. Yeah, you can be nice, you can give them a good deal, you can look after people and you can change the light bulbs yourself because it'll give you something to do. But you'll also make a lot of money in an asset that goes up with a little bit of capital appreciation but most years. But also gives you an income that is steady. Because we don't have enough houses in the UK there is a shortage. Hence the government trying to build 300,000 houses a year. But unfortunately building less than 100 years, it's never going to happen. Well that's okay because I, I do a lot of myself. I understand politicians coming out with numbers that are just not quantifiable because they have no experience and they don't know where those numbers come from.

Let me ask you, do you think Jake Paul is a good boxer?

Yeah, he's decent enough. I think he's in the southern area. No, but seriously, I mean that's a niche of Suffolk. Yeah, but I mean he might, he might be British title level. Not far off it because he's taking it, he is taking it seriously. I look at how he trains his routines and all that. He gives it 100%. Yeah, he's not, he's not, he's not quality. But you see today's market is not necessarily about quality. We can't kid ourselves. And it's people like use fault by the way.

Oh thanks. It's My fault.

It's your fault. Because it's more important to be famous than good.

Oh, and I'm. I'm famous.

But you made people famous. You make people famous on shows like yours because a lot of people listen to it and that makes them famous. It's part and parcel of what they do. But doesn't have to be that they're good.

Do you think your son Eddie would beat Jake Paul in a fight?

I think he'd have a decent chance, but only for the first couple of rounds. Right. I mean, when you get fit for fighting, that you're fit. I mean it's a level of fitness that most people, even other professional sportsmen, can never reach. Yeah. Now it is constant and. And you have to live it. And Eddie doesn't. I mean, Eddie has a physical specimen. He's good, you know, I mean he works out a couple of times a day. He's. For a big man, he's. He's in a lot of shape. Although interestingly he's 46. And I said to him the other day, you know, you're gonna be 50 soon. This is sort of. Doesn't sound the same, is it? But he's. No, he puts the work in. But professional sportsmen, or put their. Working at their level in a fight, Eddie's heavy handed and would have a little chance in the first two rounds or three rounds and then it'd get destroyed by anyone who was super fit. Yeah.

Do you think it's more important to be the best entertainer in a sport or the best at the sport?

You just got to be the best you can be. And it varies from individual. Some people shy away from. I've seen lots of fighters and sportsmen generally that are excellent at what they do, but they just don't come across that way or to a wide enough.

Audience, which I guess you don't like because you can't earn so much money off them.

I can't. You can't sell them. When you sell tickets, you're selling tickets, aren't you? I mean, as much as we all look at press conferences and say, well, that was fixed, or that a lot of it's not fixed because obviously there's a lot of pressure out there.

Yeah.

But being as good as you can be is a maxim that applies to whoever you are, whatever you do.

Yeah.

You know, if you're. My dad was a bus driver. I hope he was the best bus driver he could be because in life you get one chance and you've just. I don't understand People that go through the motions of life. Because before you know it and you, this gets more relevant as you get older. You realize that it's not a rehearsal and it really isn't. So, you know, you've got put in what you can get out what you can in the knowledge that it's not going to be around forever. So being famous is important as being good. But obviously you don't achieve a legacy unless you're good. In other words, legacy planning is better than just being famous. Right. And that gives some thought. And as I say, think poor is the greatest thing I could ever tell anyone. You know, I always say, I remember talking to Marvin Hagley years ago, trying to get him to make a comeback. I wanted to put him in with Chris Eubanks senior. And he said, you know, how long ago is this? You're talking 30 years. Okay, fine, yeah. And he said, you know, I don't have a fortune, Barry. I said, I maybe got eight to $10 million in the bank. But you know, he said, it's tough to do your road work with 8 to 10 million dollars in your bank. No fighter with money is ever as good in my view as a poor fighter. Right. Someone who's trying. In the old days when people used to fight to put bread on the table for the family, they were tougher than today's fighters as people. Right. They weren't trained as well, they didn't have the nutritionists, they didn't have the techniques or the strength. But they were mentally tough because they had a reason for being tough. Yeah. It's like people going to war, isn't it? I mean, how did, how do people want to blow the whistle, jump out of their mud ditch and charge across a field with a, a gun and a bayonet and take on a machine gun? How do they do that? It's puzzled me my whole life. Yeah. Today the union leader would say, help, lads, this is no good. Put your arms there, you know, we're going home. There's a certain pedigree of people that if they believe in what they're doing, we'll do things like that. And it's, it's unique amongst humans. I don't know an animal would ever do it. No, because I have in the bill they have a built in self protection zone. Sometimes we don't. And I think business, especially business is so typical of sport because all we really want to do in business, when you get to a certain level and I'm 77, I've done okay, I still want to win every argument I still want to win every year. I live by balance sheets and profit loss accounts and some people take the mick out of me. Oh, you ever talk about his money? I go, yeah, because that's how I determine. I don't score goals, I don't get knockouts, I get balance sheets and I want to win. Yeah. And I've got the day. I say it doesn't matter, I'm finished. Yeah. Because there's no point in people like me existing. It's a game. I like winning games. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.

Do you think in your sports that you run like snooker and boxing, do you think some of the old classic rivalries are missing? You know, I think back to the old snooker days and boxing days, there were so many great rivalries and that felt like that's what got the whole.

Country engaged, it's true. But there is a time and a place and they're out there but they need building. Right. So they need an Eddie Hearn or someone like that to actually showcase the rivalry and to build it up over a period of time.

Right.

You know, I think Eubank Jr against Connor Ben is a good example of a modern day rivalry but very, not just easy to do but quite straightforward. You've got the rivalry of the dads, you've got, you know, and they speak quite well, they clearly hate each other and that comes across as real and that creates rivalry. In the past probably people had to be a little bit more outgoing because the money they were earning wasn't much and there was other things they did, you know, they would do their after dinner speeches or where in snooker and darts, they would do their exhibitions in pubs and clubs and all that to earn a few quid. Yeah. But today it's more towards prize money and being excellent at your job is where you make your real money. In some ways that suppresses a personality. If you don't come out of a, you know, rectangular room of 20 by 20, if you don't come outside and smell the coffee, but you're just practicing, practicing, practicing, you'll be great player.

Yeah.

But you might not be a great personality. No. So that's more work on the promoters to actually find something in their psyche, their build up which says, oh, we can dwell on that. This. Did you know that, you know, and Steve Davis is one of the great examples and of someone who on the face of it was quite dull, you know, very dull. But we found things, we made him, we made him Mr. Interesting on the grounds that he wasn't at all interesting. And yet when people met him, they found out that he was very interested. So they felt they were in a sort of exclusive club. We know the real Steve Davis, but you need to develop that, you know, and then you go out commercially and you do the interesting book of Steve Davis and you know, everything. Yeah, that's our job. That's what we do. We maximize and we exploit. But to have a personality, and some of them are a gift, you know, Luke Littler is a gift from heaven for darts because not only is he very, very good, he hasn't been spoiled yet. He hasn't gone, you know, bertie big whatever, you know, he just plays darts and he loves it, clearly. And he loves being the center of attention. I'm sure he loves earning millions and millions of pounds.

Yeah.

And he's worth every single penny and more because of what he's done for the sport and for himself. Yeah. So it is a sort of a mutual thing. I think. There were more personalities per participant 30 or 40 years ago.

Yeah.

The stories were better. Their stories were more generally built around the struggle. And today we don't struggle as much because life is a lot fairer. You know, there's unemployment, money, there's benefits, there's lots of things that you can do. There's the black economy, There's. There's a million things to get by.

Yeah.

But what you're looking for is people that want to make a real impression on the world and. And there's not that many of them at the moment. No.

And who do you think is the single most. Left an impression on the world sports.

Person you've ever worked with? Oh, goodness me. There's been so many. I mean, again, we're just talking with the UK footprint, because if you look at the world's a big place, you know, so did Muhammad Ali Maker. I mean, I met him a couple of times, but sadly, towards his latter years.

Yeah.

But he left an impression that's unbelievable today. Mike Tyson to his own extent. George Foreman in another way, you know, with eight sons or whatever, and a fortune out of a kitchen utensil. Yeah. But at the same time, a preacher and someone who. People have got a story to tell. I think this is where people get confused with me, Eddie, whatever, you know, business people. Yeah. Yes. But we're really storytellers, and that's the storyteller. Because without narrative, we don't have anything to talk about. We don't have, you know, you need something. Tell me something about you. You know, I got eight snooker players together in the 80s and said, right, we're all, we're in a soap opera, this is our world. So let's just talk about what your role is in that soap opera. Dennis Taylor. Yes. You're, you're the funny Irishman, you just tell jokes. Terry Griffiths. Ibar. See, you're a Welsh. Everyone in Wales thinks they can sing. So while you're playing snooker, can you sing or hum? Jimmy. Why Jimmy? You can't read or write, people know that. But you can work out an eight horse accumulator faster than I've ever known. And he went round like that and we got Steve Davis and said, Steve, you're the boring one. You wear a white shirt, black suit, you drink water and you never talk to anyone. Okay, So I can do that. And you start creating the narrative that builds. Sportsmen and women and they've all got something, you know, I don't know what it is, but everyone, everyone's different in their DNA, you know, everyone is better than someone else in the world, than everyone else in the world. That's something a lot of them don't discover what that is. Our job is to get inside the personality and build from inside. It has to be natural, otherwise it sounds so staged. If you give someone a line to say, you know, it doesn't come across the same. No. So the, the narrative of an individual is what people will latch onto and that will make them like a soap opera, follow their heroes, be interested in their adversaries, have a favorite or someone they don't like. It doesn't matter whether you're light or not, it matters if you sell tickets and attract ratings.

And on that note, is there an argument that maybe the greatest ever sportsman and most marketable sportsman is Ronnie o'?

Sullivan? At this moment in time, we're judging Ronnie as a snooker player. Let's not get carried away. So he's not Muhammad Ali as an existing sportsman, he's a professional. He would be in the top dozen.

That'S ever lived of any sport.

Yes. In this country. I mean you're going back, you're saying Dennis Compton, for example, in cricket, you know. Yeah, but think, how about Billy Wright? Yeah, but Ryan Giggs, I mean, George Best, Bobby Moore.

Yeah, I mean all those are great, but I just. Has Ronnie not defined, defied everything? Longevity of his career?

Longevity is unbelievable ability, scale of ability, right handed left hand shots that other people haven't even seen. He can produce things that other people don't even consider. So he has to be right up up there. I'm just concerned that you don't make anyone number one because depending on the angle that you're approaching it.

Yeah.

You know, there's lots of people in this country, believe it or not, they've never heard of Ronnie o'. Sullivan. They don't follow the snooker. They don't know. Other people would still say Steve Davis, who's my best friend, was the better player. Actually not true. Even Steve would tell you he wasn't anywhere close to where Ronnie is.

Yeah.

But the fact is that he's a huge name and has performed over an elongated period beyond anyone else's. I mean, Mark Williams won a snooker tournament the other week which made him the oldest winner of a ranking event. I think he's 52.

Yeah.

That is incredible. The level of competition that exists today within snooker is so much higher than, than it was because these guys can all play and they've actually gone through the Davis and Hendry notebook and just gone and played hours upon hours. It doesn't do a lot for your conversational skills, but it makes you a bloody good player. Yeah.

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It's money. What do you want? It's money. What am I working for? I work for money.

What about control though? Surely you want control of your own company.

Yes, but everything has a price. Don't ever get so big headed you think you run the world. Oh, I'm not, by the way. I don't think I run the world. Bill Gates has a price, you know. Elon Musk has a price. Yeah, it's just life. In our world we have a simple philosophy. Firstly, family first. And we say businesses are close second. But family comes first.

Yeah.

So the only interest I've got is making sure that my family direct and my family in the future, families that I don't even know my legacy. I Hope will be to influence several generations of Hearns. Let's hope I don't mess it up. But at the same time, you look at restrictions on yourself in different ways. There's a certain level of money that goes beyond any restriction. So in other words, what I'm saying is I can be really, you know, snooty with you and say, oh, you can't buy, you know, you can't buy me for that. There's a level and there's a level for every single person in the world. Some levels might be a trillion, might be a billion, some levels might be 30 quid. It just depends on where you are, you know, it just depends on where you are. And you've got to look at yourself in the mirror and say, is this a good deal for me and my family? And if it is, then you take it. And if it's not, you turn them away. But again, think poor. What am I saying to you? Think poor. I don't want to be poor. I'm never going to be poor. I'm going to be poorer because time goes where you just. You stop earning and you start spending or getting rid of it, which is good. But I want value. It's an insult for me to build a business and then sell any of it at less than what I think it's worth. And if someone comes in with a figure way more than I think it's worth, I will be an idiot to say no.

And so is it likely to happen? Do you think you could have the Saudi packers?

I think we sold 13.3% to the Qataris, which. That's done. Yeah.

And was that good money.

By any standard? Yes, by Barry standards. By Barry standards, it was fair. I thought it was fair. The company's gone up and valued more.

Yeah.

Which is what you try to. Because we're playing the game, we're trying to make ourselves worth more, even if we don't sell it. If someone came in and the Saudis, I would think would be one of the favorites to come in to buy another small stake, as long as Baza's got the final word.

And what do they bring other than money?

Site fees, sponsorships, TV rights, digital exploitation vehicles. What do they bring? They open up another part of the world to me, to parts that I can't reach myself, you know, if you're talking about, would I sell to someone from the East End of London? No, I know everything he knows.

Yeah.

He's not going to add anything. I can give me a few quid and he's not stupid, so he's not going to overpay me. You know, other people come in and they have a dream of where they want to get to on a level. And I think, swear Eddie is so much better than me because Eddie's dreams and philosophy is much bigger than mine. I'm really quite pleased where we got to now, to be honest with you. Yeah, slightly staggered on occasions, but probably because I aimed too low. Eddie said to me the other day, you know what, dad, if I'd have joined you 10 years before, I did think how big we'd be now. And I thought, cheeky little bastard. I said, well Eddie, you might be right, but we might also have gone skin because I think poor and I think worst case scenario and therefore I never get disappointed. I don't have bad days, I never have a bad day because I always set my targets low enough to be. So every day I can be a target in something and that makes me. But it might make me small fry. I'm not a speculator, I'm not someone that risks. I'm not going to build up my business and go, the next big thing is AI. Let's put them whatever into AI. No, I don't know enough about it. It's too risky and I don't like risk. I'm buying farms because I like land. I know they're not going to make it anymore. It's a terrible investment from an income, but. But I live all right anyway. I love walking around seeing trees. Does that make me soft? No. One day those trees may be housing estates, one day they may be solar. By the way, I'm talking in a hundred years time. I'm not. I'm in no rush to do anything. I'm trying to postpone dying. That is the only issue I've got. The only thing can affect my life is dying. And one day I will and I'm quite prepared for it whenever it comes. It's not a problem because it's not my decision. I do my best to avoid it. But you know, guarantees in life, guarantees in life is just do the best you can do every second. Don't waste an hour of your life. Why, what are you gonna do? You know, I'm getting a little bit naughty every now and again. I have a lay in I've never done, but all of a sudden I'm thinking, do you know what? It's quite, it's a little luxury. Open your eyes and it says half past nine. You know, that's the sort of thing you get where you pat yourself on the back and say, you know, you're getting a bit sloppy, boy, but at the same time, well done. You put in a good shift.

Well, you're 77 now, is that right? And you had a little bit of a health scare while you were filming, didn't you? You're serious?

Yeah. Yeah.

But you still seem fit, healthy. Your energy seems good.

Listen, I've. I live a proper. I mean, I. I try to do. I try to be the best I can be in everything, not just business, in life and even your social attitude. I try to be a decent person and I don't think I achieve every goal, but overall, so, you know, I'll do. I do three workouts a week with a personal trainer. That's probably enough of me at my age. I still play cricket, I still play golf. I love my fishing. I'm traveling more to go fishing than I've ever done in my life because I really love it. And that does my head. It sort of balances my head. Hours on a riverbank have that effect on me. And also it keeps me thinking of things. I always take a notebook with me wherever I go because I. You do forget things as you get older. But I write them down and when I finished, I'll go home and have a look at it and think I should have a look at that Doesn't. That doesn't always work. There's no certainties in life. Yeah.

Do you think you'll just work until you tell your times?

Come. I don't really think I'm even working. I mean, I'm. I'm just enjoying every hour that God gives me. So if I'm working, I love it, and if I stop loving it, I stop doing it. But I can't say I'm ever going to stop loving it. I love the fact that we've built Matcham into a big company. I love the fact we've changed a few lives because people have done well and everyone is judged purely on their own merit. It don't matter who you are. I love a world where it don't matter where you come from, you. You don't matter what color you are, don't matter what religion you are. It just matters. Are you good? If you're any good, you deserve it. But you don't get it because your dad was such and such, you know, or you went to such and such school. You've got to earn it in the real world. I mean, Eddie, he had a tough time early doors, because he was always Barry Earn's son. Yeah. And it was like, you know, it was like people underperforming. People would look at you and say, yeah, well, you've only got all that because. Not true. You know, the kid puts in a big shift. I didn't think my work ethic could ever be beat by any man alive. I think he does. He beats my work ethic, which is amazing. Yeah. Because he's got all the trappings. He doesn't need to whatever, but it's a game that he wants to win and he knows there's a price to pay.

Do you and Eddie have a clash?

Yeah, well, lots of times. Yeah. I'm old fashioned. He's nouveau riche. So, you know, what can you say? We're bound to clash, but we clash out of love, you know? I mean, I love my son more than anything in the world other than my daughter and my wife. Gotta say that in case they listen to your podcast. But Eddie, Eddie, I'm his hero. And he would never admit to you, but I know I'm his hero.

How does that make you feel?

It just makes me feel great.

Yeah.

And when I listen to him talking, I watch him act, I think, do you know what? I'm not fearful of death. I'm still here. But that's me talking.

Yeah.

Because he's been ingrained in this, you know, he hates it when I call him a project, but he is a massive project and I'm very happy with how the final versions turned out. Yeah.

Have you ever had any proper impasses?

Anything? Well, when he was young, obviously, you know, we ended up in the boxing ring together to find out what he was like, because I didn't like at 16, he was turning out to one of the rich kids that I never liked when I was growing up.

So you got in the ring with him?

Yeah, yeah.

Proper fight.

Proper fight.

Who won?

He dropped me twice in the second round. Oh. By hitting me some solid shots. And he never moved. I went home happier than he did. I said to the wife who was going mental, if you've hurt my boy, I'll kill you. I said, did you try and hurt him? Yeah, yeah, I hit him with a proper shot. Would have taken most people out. And he. He took it. But when I went home, I knew I had a proper kid. So I never worried from that day since and nor should I have worried. I think I made a mistake because it's in your DNA.

What was the mistake you made?

The mistake is I didn't realize that what he was like, at 16, didn't mean he was going to be like it the rest of his life. Right. He had too much of the Hearn DNA in him to not want to be a success. Right. And that's amazing.

Yeah.

Because he. With me, I had no. I had no issues. My dad was a bus driver. If I was a bus conductor, I'd done well. There was no pressure on me to perform. I wanted it. My mother was the one who wanted it for me, but I wanted it so bad I could taste it. So there wasn't anything I wouldn't do for a pound, though. Nothing, you know, and my. You know, my prices have gone up, my targets have run up, inflation and inflation being what it is. But Eddie's. Eddie's got the same ability to grow something, which we can be proud of.

Were you worried at some point, then? Because, you know, obviously he was in an environment where.

Yeah, of course, yeah.

Entitled, maybe. You worry.

Entitled. Envy. People are jealous. People are not pleasant sometimes and they're especially not pleasant to kids. And it's easy to, you know, I mean, he's a big lump. He could have gone one way or the other one. Yeah. But he didn't. He stuck to it and he's ended up good. He's ended up someone I'm extremely proud of. But also, I would say if he was an employee and I wasn't related to him, I would still want him running my company. Yeah. Which is a biggest compliment I could ever pay him.

Do you still have any beef with Frank Warren?

No, I've never had beef with Frank Warren. We're competitors, right? I mean, both of us.

Does that motivate you?

Of course. You want to win. I told you. How many times I got to tell you, I want to win. Me and Frank used to say that we worship the ground that's coming to each other and that in the boxing business, there's swings. The difference between us is basic. He's a really good boxing promoter and I believe he loves boxing. And I think it's in his veins, it's not in mine. I'm a businessman. I make money. Right. And I like boxing very much as a part of my portfolio of interests.

Yeah.

But it's a bit like Eddie's taken that same principle and said, I'm a global, I'm not a UK promoter. We think out, you know, we think in far beyond. We're a global promoter.

Yeah.

So Eddie's got shows in Ghana and Japan and Australia every week. Is somewhere doing something all over the world. No, One's ever done that before. No, but it's a marvelous business where you meet some great people having a struggle to achieve something with their life and you fall in love with them. You know, you fall in love with sportsmen because I suppose a bit of them is you in it. Try. You're, you're seeing yourself. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And he's had it, you know, he hasn't had it tough financially, but he's had it tough from a working environment where people haven't given him the credit he deserves without looking back and going, look, forget who he is, analyze what the animal you see. This kid's, this kid's special. Yeah. And he'll go on to do great things, I'm sure. I've no idea where because he sees things different. To me, he's a much. You know, he's quite right. We might be worth 10 times more than we are now. But I'm satisfied with the job I've done. And I mean I, I've passed the bat onto him and said, now you run the race and see how you get on.

So how much are you involved now? Would you just let him make all the decisions?

No one makes all the decisions.

But you can't let fully go.

Okay, I can't let go. I'm not. I maintained when I share and I mean, we do things because there's no point in me having it. I'm getting too old. But I maintain some, what can I call them? Veto rights. So there's certain things within the company. Well, I will have the final shot if I own nothing. I'm not a director of any of my companies anymore. Right. The president, which is a non executive position.

Yeah.

I attend board meetings without a vote. And anyone who's got a brain will always listen to what I've got to say because I know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Period. Yeah. And if they do decide, which they wouldn't, to do something which I patently disagree with, I'm sure I can find a veto right in there somewhere.

What kind of things would you veto?

Takeovers, Borrow, borrowings. You know, someone come in and say, right, we've got this opportunity, we can borrow. We've never borrowed money. I don't like borrowing money. I don't like paying other people interest. I like people paying me interest. So if we took an aggressive point in business and said an opportunity comes up, that's, this is a very good example where someone said, well, if we go and borrow a billion pounds, we can do such and such. Yeah. And something at that level would endanger what I've built up. Veto.

Yeah.

But on everything else, I'm pretty easy going. I mean, I think I've got the best team in sport. I've got some wonderful administrators and if they weren't as good as I think they are, then I've failed myself. So obviously I'm never going to accept that, am I? So they, they are the best in the business.

Yeah.

And for that reason, you don't give someone a title and a responsibility unless you let him have his own way. Otherwise you might as well just do the job yourself. So I'm very happy to dispense authority across the board and go out. There's the challenge. Go out, Emily, build. Show me what you can do in nine ball. Paul, Matt Porter. Go and show me. The darts is fantastic. Go and make it bigger, Eddie. Frank Smith with the boxing, you know. Okay, you're falling behind. Darts. What you got? What you got? Steve Dawson with the snooker. Simon Brown. There's, there's about 125 of us, which is not a lot of people. People now, it's not a lot in comparison to size of the business. When we talk to our American friends and they know the size of our business, the profitability of it, the turnover of it, and they say how many people you've got? And you say about 125, they're absolutely amazed. I think we should have two or 3,000. Wow. Well, I'm too mean to pay two or 3,000 salaries. No, no, we can all work a bit harder.

Yeah.

And we do have that work ethic within matcham where everyone knows this company actually, if you want senior seniority, it takes over your life. Same as you. When you're doing something yourself, it takes over your life and you just gotta go with it because that's what you were put here to do. Yeah.

And are you sad that Eddie's gone to Monaco?

Yes, I understand his reasons. I'm sad because I see my son every day now. I'm like making an appointment. I see him three hours every three weeks. Yeah. We talk on the time. We're very close and I like that. My daughter's been wonderful as well and we're a close family and I like more. But I do understand the reason and I'm sure that I've done things in my life where people say, well, you know, when we were started off, we used to do the tours in the Far East. I'd be gone for weeks and weeks and Weeks and I've got two young kids and they don't see their dad and they got to understand, yeah, this is all for you and for me as well. This is part of our journey within this family and as you grow up you will understand that more and more. And they did.

And why do you think Eddie's gone?

Well, you know, why does tax, I mean tax savings. Ridiculous there. We're living in a country where the envies of wealth are destroying everything and we're being operated on by people who have no business experience and they may be really smart but they ain't going to make it on their own. And they need entrepreneurs, they need people that make a stand and say I want to build something. What people say, oh, look at him, he's got a lot of money. They don't see the thousands of people underneath him that have benefited from that. And sometimes, you know, there are rich people that do wrong things the same as there are poor people. But we've got to improve. You've got to understand that the United Kingdom was built as a trading company, a risk, a risk taking company. And risks are great because if they come off they benefit everybody. But when you listen to some of the party politics that go on now, it's actually, they find it upsetting to have people achievers, wealth creators, they don't like them so they hit them with anything and then what happens?

They all leave.

They leave?

Yeah.

And what do they take with them? All their money. So the billions of pounds, 30, 000 people or so left this year, that's masses. And worst thing is they've not really been replaced because other wealthy people that might consider investing in the UK look over the, look over the gate and see somewhere where it's, no, that's not for me. I'll go somewhere where I'm more appreciated, where I can have a bit more freedom, develop and live my dream. And dreams is about what it is. There's too much negativity and you know, society has to be fair to everybody. But that means everybody, not just those who haven't achieved it means you've got to understand there's a balance in every economy that you must take care of. Clueless. Bloody clueless.

So if you had the ear of, you know, the top people in labor, what would you suggest they do?

You can make a case for increasing tax, produces less revenue. I mean they're going round at the moment. God knows what's going to happen with the next budget. I fear the worst. But it's okay not Going to hurt me, you know, pay a few quid more. Well, so what? I'm going to be dead. So what? What does worry me is where's the Barry Hearn who's 18 years old or 20 years old now? Where are these people? They're over the country, mate. They're in industrial states, the same as I come from or wherever or they're rich kids that still want to do it because it's in their genes. They've got to be encouraged and the only way to encourage is let them live the life and give them the freedom at the same time. We've got to look after everybody else as well. So it's a bit of a balance, but the balance is led from the front. We should be the leaders in Europe. We should be cutting corporation tax to encourage foreign firms to come here and provide employment and provide a salary. There's lots of other things about the boat people and immigration I won't bore you with, but clearly all I want from anybody is just common sense. If we got a lot more money coming in, we'll all be better off. So don't turn people away. My son now live, has left and I'm sad by it, but I understand his reasons, but I also, I'm sad for the fact that the country has lost a lot by his departure and he is just one of tens of thousands of people. When you multiply it all up, you don't have a budget problem. You've actually thrown away billions and billions of pounds. Well done, well done, mate. You read the right book, not Google.

Says you're worth 158 million. How close is Google?

No.

So I guess it's not over egged it.

Who knows?

I. You must know.

Of course I know. I'm not telling you. No, listen, my job is doing quite, I'm doing quite a good job on becoming less and less right. Valuable.

Yeah.

Because I don't. If you don't need it round. So, yeah, Google, what do they know? Value. I mean it's easy, it's easy. You go to comedy's house, you value the company, you look at the equity, blah blah, blah, you do your own exam. I don't mean they play that game. But things are only worth what people are prepared to pay. So when I say to you what price is there? There's why I say there's always a price for something because someone just comes out. I mean the mega rich people, the mega rich people are like that. You know, when we, when we talk to the Saudis about darts And I said, can we have alcohol? And they said, no. Said, can the players have alcohol? Said no. I said, well, this is the price. And he said, yes, it's fine. We get. I mean, people get on well. We just cut some crap out, doesn't it? Yeah, you get what you want. I want you to get what you want. You're a customer that I want to stay friends with forever.

Yeah.

Make sure I get what I want. Extend me the same courtesy. You'll be fine. Yeah.

What do you think your legacy would be? Or you'd like it to be.

Legacy wise. There was an article written on me about 30 years ago and I always stuck in my mind, very clever, very cleverly worded. And it said that on my tombstone should say Barry Hearn, equally at home in the boardroom as he is on the cobbles. I thought, I'll do me, yeah, I'm just an ordinary geezer. I work very hard. I got lucky a few times, made the most of my luck. And I thought, poor all my life. I want value in everything. Doesn't matter if you spend a billion pounds on something, as long as it's value. If someone said to you, I'll give you the cure for cancer and it's 500 billion, I'll pay it tomorrow. Or, you know, but as long as you get value. And that value could be, how much to wash your car? If someone wants to charge me 100 pound to wash my car, I ain't having my car wash.

But that's better.

That's better.

Bentley must be yours.

It's only a car. Don't make no difference to me while driving, who cares? People tell me, I gotta have it. Eddie. Eddie sent a Bentley around for me once on my birthday. I think I was 60. This Bentley turned up in the drive. Eddie went, happy birthday, Dad. I said, you know what? That's really some in it days. He went, no, no. He said, you're paying for it. He said, but you drive cars. And I thought it was time you had a proper car. I'll pay you. No, no. He said, it was the thought of the President that's more important in it. I said, yeah. He said, well, I had the thought and you're paying for the present.

What's your biggest mistake or regret?

I don't make mistakes.

You've never made a mistake?

No, never in my life. And I'll tell you why I know that for sure is because I have a compartment in my brain. If I do something wrong or make a mistake, I put it in that Compartment and it never gets visited again. Subconsciously, I've learned. I've learned the lesson of a mistake. But I never think about it because it's a negative thought and I only have positive thoughts. Does that make sense? Yeah.

How do you only have positive thoughts? Because you must have fears.

I, I don't even fear death. How can I fear anything?

But you might, like you might feel. What about the fear of the death of your children or going bust in business?

I don't even think of things like that.

No.

I just. Very positive outlook. Go for it and I get knocked back, I lose, I don't win every battle. But when I wake up in the morning, I start again. It's only like a fight going down, you know, it's easy. When I used to mess around boxing, I used to quite like going down because I used to stay there. But in life you go, you go again. Yeah. And we all make mistakes. All I'm saying is it's a bit of a compromise that I don't trouble myself. I don't burden myself with negative thoughts and it can only cause me pain. So it's where my wife calls me superficial. I don't feel pain on anything. So people come and that's a bit of a sweeping statement. But I do my best not to feel pain is the best way.

Yeah.

Because it's, it's a negative reaction. So I seem to have. Be able to compartmentalize disasters, personal and business, whatever, and they'll always be them. But I'm not going to be the type of person that grows up being bitter or life hasn't treated me well. I'm grateful for what life does for me and I'm going to try and just be positive about everything.

Are you ruthless?

Yes.

And do you think nowadays you have to be ruthless to be successful in business?

You have to be lots of things. You have to be lucky more than anything else. I think there's a tremendous amount of good fortune in it. And people then have to be. Have to be ready to identify that moment when they're lucky and then fulfill their dreams on exploiting that moment, you know, so it's a chain reaction. A lot of people don't spot the, the opening. You know, I think people that live looking for openings a bit better, more chance and some people don't. When you say gamble, there is a gamble of commitment, isn't there? It's like, you know, I don't know, you commit to something and you're not going to walk away whilst it's still Delivering value to you. So I don't think it's. I don't think it's a bad trait. It's just something that you do when you're playing the game, you know, ruthless. If there's a 5050 ball on a football field, do you back out or do you go through? It's not ruthless. One's a winner, one's a loser.

How long have you been married, Barry?

55 years. Wow. So how.

That's rare. How do you maintain a long marriage? Especially when, you know, you.

You work a lot. Who knows? I mean, you. Oh, I was married. Well, I met my wife when she was 16 and I was 18. She's a remarkable woman, mainly because of how she's managed to adapt. I mean, both of us were cancel ours, kids. We both grafted like no tomorrow. And it's come off and she's ended up being a rock of the family. She's a very private person. She doesn't want to go out, really. She breeds racehorses, which she loves. She works hard every day. Quarter past eight till half past four, and she won't go to bed until she's seen every single loss before she goes to sleep. She's a one off. But in our family, you need that to compete with the other personalities, you know, my daughter's quite specific in what she wants. You know, she knows she's. She doesn't want to be part of the Netflix. Susan, my wife, never would ever go anywhere near a Netflix show. Yeah. You know, absolutely horrendous. And yet she's married to someone who calls that sort of thing on a daily basis. Yeah, she thinks I'm mad, you know, but if people are interesting around me, I've got plenty of time for them. She's always been interesting.

And what do you think she loves about you the most?

Very little. I should deal with you, Barry. She might, I think. Yeah. It's a strange thing. 55 years is a lifetime.

It's a long time.

60 years. We've been together next September. It's unbelievable. I think there's a lot of habit in things. You get used to baked beans every day. And there's a sort of an understanding somehow that it works. And I don't really know how to put words on it, you know, but it's worked for us. Yeah.

And tell us about this Netflix show, because I understand it's been a wild success.

Well, yeah, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. You know, sometimes when you live in a goldfish bowl, you think that that is Your world. And it's quite encouraging when you break out and you say, well, there's a whole world out there. I mean, it's been an amazing. I think it's been an amazing success on some great numbers. But for me personally, more importantly, it's. It's introduced me to new people, it's connected me with people that I've known in the past. That's been fascinating.

Done any deals off the back of it?

Half a dozen really good things on the back of it, which is great. But as I say, when I talk to you about an individual, it's more important to be famous than good. In a way that works for companies as well. I mean, it works for you. But what I'm saying to you is it's not an offense to say how good are you? So it's very difficult to monitor. How good am I?

Yeah.

What am I comparing it with? Someone who's no good or someone who's really smart? Yeah. You know, am I better than Gates and Mask or am I worse than the geezer that I don't know fills my car up with petrol? I don't know. So we can't. We can't evaluate anything. There is no little black book. It's not Fools and Horses with a little book that says a full escorts worth 420 quid. We just don't have that. So we can just compare ourselves to being the best we can be and hope that. But then again, I'm talking in circles because I don't really care. It's not. It's not important to me what isn't, what people think and, and what they got. I live my life and I can try and be truthful with myself and I try and be honest with my friends and I look for value and I get on with the job. There's. It's quite black. Black and white. Yeah. You know, some people a bit deeper.

You know, how do you get to that point where you don't care about what people think? Because a lot of people, I think, are cursed with that.

No, no, I know, but it can. I think you will. You learn, don't you? Criticism hurts if you think you're in the right. Abuse hurts. Especially if it's unnamed, unknown. You've got to cut yourself off from that sort of world. I mean, I know a lot of it's social media, led, but you've got to understand that those people don't know you. So they're entitled to make a mistake. Just make sure they make the mistake in their own time as far away from you as possible and don't let it change your approach to life or the omission because they don't know what you're going through no one knows now there are times which is it's not easy but you're not going to get sympathy out of people so why don't even caught it and at the same time if you get criticism out of them they're doing it from their own perspective which means absolutely nothing to you so just ignore it Barry you've been.

On this show three times now and you kindly said before we started that you don't usually do second times I love having you on the show I love talking to you I think you're really inspirational thank you very much well.

Listen it's a pleasure and you keep up your good work thank you and carry on spreading the gospel self help it's a Victorian ideal that works at the end of the day we all we've really got is ourselves so let's maximize that amen amen thank you Baron pleasure thank you. Sa.