Multi-Millionaire on Being Forced Out The UK & If Anyone Can Become Rich? - Ann Kaplan

I'm in shock how this country is run now. Anybody with wealth is leaving, but she doesn't listen to what the country wants. Get out of here, you rich. It's a whole other world out there.

When you actually have money and Google says you're worth half a billion pounds.

We might be worth a little bit more. Whatever offer you give, be prepared to walk away.

What would be the rough tax bills.

You would pay if you worked for me? You would last about three seconds.

How do you build an empire and have six children?

A lot of juggling. It's very different being a female in business. The glass ceiling is not broken.

What's one lie that all rich people tell?

I don't know. Jeffrey Epstein.

Are rich people unfairly targeted in the UK right now?

Yes. Nobody likes someone because they're rich. There is no tolerance for rich people. It's just if, if I do something publicly right away it's like, get out of here, you rich. That's all they want is me out because I have money. They have no understanding that I'm a human being that's worked hard all my life. And that's the same with anybody who's rich. You have money, you're out.

And is this worse in the UK than say America, Canada or other places?

I think it's terrible in the uk.

It's, it's shame on us.

Yes, shame on you. Because you're rich, you get out. Nobody really likes somebody that is wealthy. It's, we cheer each other on, like, go for it, go for it, go for it. You know, reach your dreams, do what you want and as soon as you have money then, oh, why didn't I do that? Get out of here. You should pay more, pay taxes, do more, give your money away, Be philanthropic. I don't agree with it, any of that attitude.

Yeah.

In Ukraine, you're terrible, you're terrible, terrible people because you don't like anyone who's successful.

Shame on us. Because a lot of people who go to America do say that the culture of success is a bit more open minded there. I mean, obviously I know you're not from America, but. Yeah, but yeah, that makes me sad. And do you find that the political position in the uk, you know, the state of the UK in general, do you think that's on the decline?

Well, the UK has a reputation. This is coming from originally living in Canada. The UK has always had a reputation of it being very questionable politics.

But, well, what does that mean?

It was always like high taxes, everything was focused on taxes and I was aware of this one even when I was young, that there were issues there.

Now, well, if Canada thinks that of us, that must be bad, mustn't it?

Well, we, we love the royals.

Yeah.

Canada, we love the uk. We're Commonwealth countries.

Yes.

But the UK is considered beautiful. But the politics here. Yeah. Now, coming to live here almost four years ago, I was not really aware of the political climate, hadn't paid attention to it like any other country, not too concerned about it. But I'm in shock how this country is run now because it matters. It hits me. Yeah. And so it's. I, I don't, I don't like what's going on here.

So what specifically shocks you? What don't you like?

Everything about how you're taxed. Everything is focused on taxing. Taxing? Taxing. Rather than investment into growth, this politics that's going on right now should be investing into the growth, into infrastructure. Instead it's just taxing. So nobody can be successful without having, like. You can't be a successful entrepreneur in the uk, otherwise you're taxed as soon as you're successful.

Yeah.

So you can't make money as an entrepreneur, you can't put money aside. I'm into real estate investment. But here, when you have a property, you're taxed on the property. If you're renting it out, you're taxed on that. And so how do you make money or save in the uk? How did you become successful? And you can't. You're. You have more incentive not to work than you do to work.

Yeah. Do you know any people who are leaving? Because there seems to be a bit of an exodus of successful people moving over to Dubai, sometimes America, other European countries. Are you experiencing that?

Well, we, we are already applied and we're approved to live in Italy.

So you are.

Oh, we're leaving.

You've only been here four years and you're thinking of leaving?

Three and a half years. We're leaving in three, six months. And so we've already got our Italian residency. Now it costs.

This makes me so angry.

€300,000 a year to live in Italy.

Right.

So we pay a fee, approximately 300,000 a year. Why doesn't the UK say, instead of the 72,000 non doms, why doesn't the UK say pay 300,000 a year and stay here? And then that would go to infrastructure and let us stay here.

And employment.

And employment. And then I think the UK should do something like they do. Well, we have properties in British Virgin Islands and we have to invest in the infrastructure there in order to own property. And if we don't invest what we promise to do, we're taxed on that or we pay a fee. Why doesn't the UK do that? Have us put our money into infrastructure, pay a fee and then they would get billions of dollars a year or pounds from us rather than have all of us flee. And I'm not alone, fleeing to Milan and others, Dubai and Switzerland, we're all going. Anybody with wealth is leaving.

This makes me so angry. I rant about this on social media all the time. Somehow we've attracted an amazing entrepreneur like yourself and we've just got you here.

Yeah.

And now you're going to go.

We never, ever, ever would have come here. We could choose anywhere in the world to live. Now, of course, we're intelligent business people. We're going to go somewhere where the team tax system isn't going to tax us on worldwide income.

Yeah.

We still have businesses worldwide. We have properties worldwide. We're not going to be double taxed on.

Why would you do that? I'm sure you're happy to pay tax here on income you earn here.

Yes. We've invested £25 million so far in this.

In this castle.

In this castle. And we bought properties, we bought neighboring land, we've done all the renovations. We employ over 100 people. So why. We're paying taxes, they're paying taxes. We pay tax on all of that. We bring our money into the country and now we're leaving.

So I don't.

But we're still going to keep the castle.

Right? Good. And I don't normally do this this early in a podcast, but I'm going to look at that camera and if anyone from labor is watching, there is a successful entrepreneur here who moved here less than four years ago, has invested £25 million into property in this country, employs 100 people and now she has to leave.

That is the big question is going to be. Has to leave. Most people go, don't slam the door on the way out.

They do, yeah.

They say, they say, we don't want you here. And then they start attacking how I look or something like that. Things that have nothing to do with anything, they just go on a complete attack. It's cruel. It gets. The comments that I get are sometimes a couple thousand just on.

What do they say?

Oh, you're ugly, you, you, all these kind of things.

What's that got to do with your entrepreneurial ventures?

Nothing. And you know what? It doesn't hurt me. Because what it is is. What it is is that we have a country that is obsessed with disliking wealthy people. They don't understand how much we. Not just me, because it's not about me, but how much people that invest in businesses in the UK invest into their livelihood. People would pay less if we had more people employed and if we had more people investing like we do into the infrastructure in the U.K. instead, all of these billionaires and millionaires are leaving the country. And I mean literally all of them. We are not alone.

Wow. So according to where you get your research, something like between 29 and 33% of the tax revenue is generated by the top 1% and between, I think it's about 9% of the revenue of tax revenue for the whole country is generated by the bottom 50%. So just on numbers less than that. Yes. Is it? I think in America it's like two. I think in the UK it's a bit more. But basically the top 1% bring in a third of the tax revenue. And we're sending them all away.

Yeah.

Which means that the bottom 50% are going to be taking that bill.

Yeah. Labor.

Like why do they not understand this?

So, so what. What also happens is if I would never come in here. So forget having to leave because we're a non domicile tax paying resident. You don't pay tax on worldwide income and you don't have 40% inheritance tax. Not protected by trusts. No. We're smart business people. Of course we have trusts, of course we have businesses, we have operating businesses. We're not going to pay tax on those worldwide income. Nor are the oil barons. They're not going to pay tax on refineries, on everything else that they're making in other countries.

Why should you?

Doesn't make any sense. But if. Forget leaving for the non dom. For the average business person, all of the tax we now have to pay for employees, all of the. All of the insurance, everything else, the pension funds, all of that. I don't mind doing it. But as a business model, how do you make money? How does it. Smaller entrepreneur make money when you're taxed on everything that you do that you can't build a business. A proper business.

Yeah.

And make sense of it. So where's the investment going? It's just like we'll have to do something other than invest.

Yeah.

And a lot of it is that's just not work.

Wow. Yeah.

Makes no sense.

No. So I want to come back to all of this.

Yeah.

And I wouldn't normally be so bold so early in the interview, but I was having a little Google. And Google says you're worth half a billion pounds. How accurate is that?

We might be worth a little bit more.

Wow.

But, yes.

Wow. Wow. Who's we, by the way?

My husband and I.

Okay. And have you built the businesses up from scratch yourselves? Did you?

Yes, we did. So my husband started a company called Inmote. And have you heard of Morpheus 8? No. So Morpheus Aid is skin tightening.

Right.

And they have a number of technologies. And so he actually developed Morpheus 8.

Yeah.

And a number of medical technologies that people go to, like the Kardashians and that. This is the technologies that they talk about.

Yeah.

And he has about 3,000 employees.

Wow.

And built this company, took it public NASDAQ, and still operates.

Yeah.

And then I built most of my fortune through investing in finance infrastructures, wrote an algorithm that's a determinant for consumer default and whether you'll default on a loan or not.

Yeah.

And most of it is from real estate investments, flipping commercial buildings and buying and selling real estate and then hanging onto it.

Right. How does it feel to be worth nearer a billion pounds than half a billion pounds? How does that feel?

It makes no difference to me because I'm. Because I still live. Like, I don't have that kind of money other than I can sit in a better seat on an airplane or something like that. I don't really like driving or cars. That doesn't matter. I still take taxis. And it's. I don't. Like, if I go to a fashion show in Paris, I'll buy that designer just to respect the designer. Other than that I look like a street person everywhere I go. So it doesn't make a difference to me about having a ton of money, other than we can afford to do things if we want to. But it also allows me to give back more. So I'm looking at ways I can give back and the ways I can invest so I can give back more, but it doesn't matter. I'm not looking for more, but I'm not looking for less.

Right.

So, yeah, I'm making smart decisions and then I can do more.

Yeah.

But it's. It's. It's surreal to go, my goodness. I didn't know I didn't have to watch the grocery budget. That kind of happened. Almost like a shock.

Yeah. So what is driving you, then, if becoming a billionaire isn't.

I love working, I love life, I love working, I love Creativity, growing something. I like to see how much more I can grow. So I'll grow more rest. I'll build more restaurants. I'll do more investment into real estate. I'm going to do a lot more than what I'm just doing at the castle.

Yeah.

I just love it.

Okay. So I can tell you love it and you've been really kind to take. Give us a tour of this castle. I think it's amazing what you're doing here. I want to come back to that because there's a lot of the story of this castle. But have you found it harder being successful as a female?

It's very hard being successful. Very hard being a female in business. So when I was building the finance companies, I built a finance company over 25 years and sold. Was.

Can you disclose what you sold it for?

No.

Okay. Was it more than 100 million?

It was a lot.

I really want to push, but I'll be respectful. So.

So I sold that company. But there's. I can't disclose that.

Yeah, but as in your contracted that.

You can't because there's still relationships there.

Okay.

So the. In doing that. When I was a woman in finance, I was pretty well the only woman in the room. When you go to securitization conferences or banking, it was always the only female. And it's very different being a female in business. The glass ceiling is not broken. When you're in a business of a man's world, it's. It's completely different. And people don't think, how is it different? I don't think that they realize that you can have a business mind. So it's more. I'm looked at as a woman, but I couldn't be as sharp as a man. And so I really kept behind the scenes and made a lot of business decisions and really stayed out of the forefront of operating a business. And so I wasn't the face of the company, even though people knew I owned it. But the companies were all named. They're all named with something that's not Anne's company. Yeah, they're. They're just brand names. So I'm not really behind it overtly other than when I won awards like Ernst and Young, Entrepreneur of the Year, those kind of things. Then people realize that I ran the companies or owned them.

And did you do that intentionally for the benefit of growing the companies, or did you do that?

Because I knew.

Because you knew that was the best way to do it. Because you knew it was harder as a woman.

Oh, very hard. I was. I was nine months pregnant with my second to last child, and I was going into a securitization meeting to securitize my assets, meaning I was seeking, I think, $40 million in a securitization deal with the bank. And they asked for my meeting on October, like, third. And my baby was due October 4th. So I. I tried to get the meeting after the baby, but they wouldn't do it right. So I went in there wearing a big jacket and it would cover my stomach, and I looked in their eyes so they wouldn't look down at my pregnant belly. They never knew I was pregnant, but I knew, and I can never prove it, that if they knew I was nine months pregnant, I would not get that deal. So I kept looking at them, and every time that they try to look away or down, I would just keep my eyes on them. So they keep looking at my eyes and I'm looking at you. But I don't have a pregnant belly. But I know that they do not like a woman. A woman with kids. I never talked about my children. I have six kids. Never once spoke about babies getting up, anything. I had to go into those meetings knowing my stuff and not viewed as a woman.

Yeah. So how do you build an empire and have six children? That sounds like a hard thing to.

Do without another life. It was a lot of juggling. I don't know how he did that. Just. But the same as anyone with one kid or two kids, a dog or anything, you've got to focus on your dependence.

Did you have to sacrifice one for the other? Did you have to put one before the other?

You, meaning the kids? I have my favorite. But I'm sure, you know, no one.

Says they've got a favorite kid, but I'm sure everyone has.

I do.

Okay, well, I'm not going to ask you that in case the other five are listening. But what I mean is, did you have to put the business first? Did you force yourself to put the kids first? Was there ever a conflict there?

So. So what I did is I'd get up earlier in the morning than the kids. I always deal with the worst thing that would come in by email or whatever way it came in and deal.

With the biggest problem first.

Biggest problem first. I'd be prepared the night before for driving the kids to school.

Yeah.

And what would happen is I would deal with all my business issues while I was at work, not the kids.

Yeah.

And then I deal with my kids when I was home. And not business.

Yeah.

So it had to be Done. I'd work through lunch hours. I could put my eight hours or whatever number hours in. Yeah. So I could go home and be with the kids and be home for dinner.

Right.

So it's. You just had to balance your life, but you don't put anything on hold. You don't have a to do list. You just do.

Right.

So you, you just have to.

So you were almost like batching your time.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Very compartmentalized, very focused. And I didn't fool around like it was. Business was done. I wasn't sitting there just trying to do something else while I was at work.

Yeah.

Or do something else other than focus on the kids.

Right.

And if they were sick, then I'd have to just juggle something around.

Yeah. And people talk about the mum guilt. Did you have the mum guilt when you were spending quite a lot of time at work?

No, because I owned the company. If I needed to, I could go.

Yeah.

But I also organized myself, so that didn't really happen much. And I also was very open to my employees when they had issues that they could go and do the same thing. Made me realize parents need a little bit of leeway when it comes to kids.

Right. Are there downsides to being so rich?

Nobody likes you.

Well, I like you.

Okay. One person likes me. My husband likes me. My kids kind of like me.

I'm sure other, other rich people probably like you. I guess they understand you.

I think it's. And there's people that aren't rich that I, I, I think that people think when you have money. So I haven't changed from before I had money to after whatever money is, because there's always these levels of being wealthy. I mean, look at Jeff Bezos and other people. They're billions of times wealthier. But it's. People think that I'm different, but I still look at myself the same. So I didn't change, but the perception of other people changed of what they. They think I am. And also, I'm very aware that people are always looking at my wallet. And one of the warnings is, is that don't think that that person likes me. They actually want something from me.

Right.

And so I know people are looking not at me, but what I can do for them. And that makes me kind of sad because I'd like to just have a conversation. I'd like to just sit and have a coffee without realizing at the end somebody wanted a loan or somebody wants something. That's sad.

Right. And so have you ever been taken advantage of, screwed Over.

I've had people here at the Castle that have, have messed me over, screwed me over for deposits and then leave. But that happens in business. That's part of business if you're not careful. And it happens anyway, even when you are careful. And I don't consider that a reflection that, oh, I did something dumb, it just happens. But not really. I learned that when I meet people or make a new friend or something, I always say I don't invest in other people's businesses. So I get that out of the way right away. Otherwise they have this great business idea after a week or two and they want an investment. So I try to get that out of the way.

Yeah. And if there are women listening, who.

Do you have a big women audience.

More men than women.

Yeah.

But certainly in, in my companies at our sort of mentoring levels.

Yeah.

Some of our programs are 60% women. Our staff at times is 60 women.

Yeah.

The broader demographic on Disruptors is more men than women. But we interview more men because there seems to be more men. Yeah, I used to say this many years ago, I haven't said it for many years, but we'd have very successful women who would agree to be on the show and then last minute would cancel.

Why?

We tried to figure out why.

And what's very successful.

Well, you know, entrepreneurs on Dragon's Den for example. And like at first it was like, is it because they have children and so they have last minute emergencies? Is it because they found out something about me and didn't like the show? But of course, why would they say yes in the first place? But we found that probably 80 to 90% of the inconsistencies of booking people and changing their minds and then not doing it and moving the goalposts was women. And then I would like talk about this on social media, then people would call me sexist and it's because of me. Have you got any idea why, why that might be?

I don't know why women, but I do think in general people don't want, like to speak openly. I mean, you have talked to me about just say what you want, be your authentic self. I think we're so guarded these days that we don't want to be open because we're attacked. So I found when I first became very open in the media about having to leave because of the non domicile tax regime being abolished that I was openly attacked. And then would I continue to do media? When you're attacked so much, do you.

Think you'd be attacked more than men?

Then I think anybody who speaks out about. Yes, I do think, because I've seen other millionaires and billionaires that are leaving aren't attacked as much as me, but I'm one of the only people that's very open against Rachel Reeves and this abolishment of this regime because you get attacked so hard.

So are we. Are the uk. Are we a sexist country, then?

I think you. Yeah, I think you are, very much so. I know. Here I am, I'm going and I'm.

No, no, it's fine. You know, I'm not you. That. That disappoints me, I think, because, like, what happened to fair opportunity and merit?

I think he's never been there.

Well, I think if you take anything in life, if you give everyone a fair opportunity and then more opportunity on people who work harder and do more and contribute more, which proper, pure free market capitalism is supposed to be, in any area of life, everyone gets a chance. Those who aren't very good at it, they have to try something else. And those who are good at it, what happens there?

No, that's never been there.

So I'm an ideologist, I'm naive.

Yeah, it's not been there.

Why not? Because the fucking would be if I was running this country.

Then why don't you run the country?

Because you can't run a country and run a business. You can't be in politics and run a business. People are always telling me. I've had thousands of my fans say, rob, you should run for Prime Minister. Well, number one, you can't. You can't just run for Prime Minister. There's a process and. And, you know, I'm not a politician, I'm an entrepreneur.

But I mean, there is a new state of. Look at. Look at Donald Trump.

Yeah, look, he's hated, isn't he?

It depends which side.

That's true. Because he's also loved. Yeah.

I don't know if he's really seriously loved or feared by anybody because they have so much to lose if they don't back him, but that's another conversation. Yeah, but Zelensky was a comedian.

Yeah, so. So you mean the more modern leader is not necessarily a hardcore politician.

Correct. So why would.

Yeah, why. Why is the world crying out for these kind of people now? Because the hardcore politicians are not doing a good enough job. Why not? Why aren't they? Because they're trained in politics. They're supposed to be good.

Yes.

Is that the problem?

Yes. They're not business minded. I mean, I Do not think that Reeves right now is not a business mind. She is not a business. She might be an okay accountant for small businesses.

I think an administrative, not an accountant.

What do they call her? Rachel from admin or something?

Rachel from accounts. Accounts, yeah.

So she.

Not. Definitely not an FD level.

Yeah, she's just.

I think she told, I think she told some fibs on her cv.

I heard that, yeah. And then she is trying to say, okay, this is what we should do. And I'm going, if you worked for me, you would last about three seconds. Why doesn't he, why doesn't he boot her out?

Because she, he hasn't got a clue either. He has it. Like these guys, These guys are hardcore socialists and they're Marxists and they like, I can't get my head around this. They have a fundamental belief that the government generates all the revenue. Where does the government get all of its money from?

Right, from the people, from us, from.

From workers and builders and producers and entrepreneurs. So it's just a fundamentally warped Marxist belief system. But surely in the end even the labor voters will go, well, wait a minute, I can't afford anything and even I'm paying loads of tax and I'm not a higher rate taxpayer. I need to be able to feed my family. Get out.

They were voted in but they're taking it to an extreme of complete economic downturn and a complete almost. We're going to go into some recession I think in a few years and they're not looking at. She's not forward thinking. She's thinking that in three years it's going to be a thriving country. It's not going to be with what she's doing. She's looking forward to the future, saying we're going to be better off in three years, four years, five years. But that's not the case because we're going to be worse off. So the decisions she's making now are under the assumption in a few years this is going to be a better country. But it's not worldwide, it is not going to be good. So we need to make ways that people can survive and live and have growth and investment, not cost for everyone to live here.

Why did you move here then?

We didn't know this would happen. We never would have moved here really. We could have chosen anywhere. We never would have. Well, my husband's Irish and we are here on an ancestry visa. My mother is English, so.

Right.

My, I went to university here. It's was natural to live here. It's English Speaking.

So what did you, what did you study here when you did My doctor degree, my doctorate. So you did doctorate in finance. So you came over here. So you must have liked it when you came over here and did your degree.

Loved it.

Because otherwise you wouldn't have come back, would you?

And I still sit on the board at the university and it's not a place that I want to go.

This is so upsetting to me. We were in, we've been into to Dubai a lot and of course I love Dubai. I mean there are some downsides but in dubai you pay 5% VAT, not 20 VAT, you pay 9% corp tax, not 25 corp tax. And then there's no income tax, no national insurance, no inheritance tax. The buyer and the seller pay 2% property taxes each. In the UK you can pay up to 15 stamp duty. And then when you own a house, you've got council tax, which is another property tax. It's just unbelievable. And when you meet successful people in Dubai, they're happy to meet other successful people. They know you're going to work so they connect you up with loads of people. There's the 10 year visa. Hey look, you're a creator, we'll give you a 10 year visa.

They're, they're investing in the future in Dubai.

They are.

Oh my goodness, it's amazing, amazing place, but they're investing in the future. I think it's a wonderful place to go. And look at the countries that are doing that. Italy is doing it, Dubai is doing it, Switzerland's doing it. The they're going, welcome. Come on in, come on in. Invest in here, live here. They want money to invest in the infrastructure that it grows here. It is really a country that is only helping those that are perceived of not able to pay the bills. And even that's not even a help. They're not investing in people to come here, they're saying get out. And the non dom tax regime, it's not all about just that that was built in the late teens or put in in the late 70s, the 1700s to attract people to the country. So why would you abolish something that was put in to attract investors and then have everybody who invests in the country leave to the country that say come with us.

It's mad. There's this meme that's going around and it's Dubai Real Estate agent of the year and then it's Rachel Reeves because like we're not making it very hard for people to leave and we're not making it very hard for places like Dubai to take all of our talent. That's what London used to do. Yes, London was the non dom place. London was the tax haven. The billionaires from all the countries around the world could come to London and look at we.

Yes, everything.

Well, Knights Bear, Knightsbridge and Mayfair have now crashed 35, 40% because we've had an exodus the other way.

Yes. And also if you look at all of the high end stores, she's looking at raising the VAT as well. But we'll just go to Paris and shop.

Yeah.

It makes no sense of what she's doing. But the high end stores are not getting their buyers, they're not getting, the hotels aren't getting it, the restaurants aren't getting it. People are going and that's going to hit for the employment and they estimate by I guess 2033 that's going to be a big drop and employment in those areas with all this going in.

So to me, okay, some of it you might need to be an entrepreneur or a business owner to work out. But I think 70% of what we've said just feels like common sense. Like if you want money in your country, make it easy for people to make money and don't exile people with money.

Okay, well let's look at why don't they understand it? Because she's, she's saying right now, today she's saying to the banks, please kind of back what I'm saying. So before she comes out with a budget, she's saying, listen to what I'm saying, I need your backing. She wants the backing of people to say a little bit you won't agree with but overall it's going to be a good thing for the country. So let's try and take her side of it. What? Why would she be saying this? Why isn't she listening to the people? She's backed out of a lot of things but why is she not listening to what the problems are going to be?

Why? Why do you think?

I think she's afraid to back down. I think she's afraid to make it. Like she's made a U turn on almost everything that she's done. So why is she doing this now? She's saying this is going to be better for the country but she doesn't listen to what the country wants.

That is actually a really good point. Labor seem to refuse to listen to the people because it's not just millionaires and billionaires saying this.

Well, they don't like millionaires and billionaires why?

Because they're millionaires and billionaires pay all the taxes. What's wrong with that?

Because they don't like wealthy.

But why? Because the wealthy pay all the taxes. Where do they get their money from the wealthy. So why don't they like the wealthy? That's like saying, I don't like my mum for raising me and feeding me.

So they. The comments are, when is enough enough? So when I look at the comments that people put when I'm on something like your show or in the media, it's don't you have enough money? When is enough enough? You know, take your money and go, you know, slam the front door, those kind of things. But there's an assumption that you have too much. And so that I don't understand is why can't we be successful? Whatever success is, why can't we have a home? Why can't we have a castle? Like, why is that a bad thing?

Well, someone's got to own the castle. And this is what the people who don't understand. I'm going to just say this, all this, when is it enough? Well, the person that owns the castle employs the hundred people who work on the castle.

Yes.

So what? No one should own the castle. Then the hundred people who work in the castle don't have a job.

And then the comments would be, oh, you're not paying them enough. And you've made your back on. On people by not paying enough people employees throughout your lifetime. And so that's how you've made your money is on people working for you for nothing.

No one works for free.

No. But I'm thinking, where do you get that kind of information? That I was ever unfair to somebody?

Yeah.

Where does that come in?

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Limb Castle. It's in lim. Yeah, Limb. It's kind of spelled like L, Y, M, P, N, E, like out on a limb. It's pronounced.

Right, so it's pronounced limb, but it's spelled. Yeah. Okay, so it's Limb Castle in Kent.

Yeah.

And how much have you spent? Reef. Because this is a beautiful place.

It's huge.

It's like a maze. 51 rooms. You gave us the tour of it all. I'd love to bring my team down here for a retreat. And you've. You've developed everything? Pretty much, yeah.

The gardens, the lands, the properties. About 145 acres. We bought the houses next door. So we're. We're close to 20, 25 million pounds.

So you've invested 20 to 25 million pounds redeveloping a beautiful castle which otherwise would have been a ruin, and you employ 100 people. And I've met four or five of your staff. They seem really happy to me. They're very friendly.

Very friendly.

Hello.

Yeah, hello.

Someone send this to labor?

I think we should have them down here.

Oh, I'd come back.

Yeah, yeah, we should have. We should do an archery contest.

Archery contest. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I saw that video of Keir Starmer trying to do the boxing and it wasn't great. Oh. So this castle, why did you buy it? What did you pay for it? Why did you want a castle?

I didn't want a castle. I wasn't looking for anything I did not want to actually buy in England. So when my husband and I moved here, we decided to relook for a flat. And I'll make it really quick, but we. The cheapest flat we found in Mayfair was 8.5 million pounds. 48,000 a year in the fees. What? I don't know what you call the fees. Yearly fees.

Yeah.

To just manage the condo.

Yeah.

The flat.

Yeah.

And I said to my husband, lease.

We call it the leasehold.

Leasehold. So I said, look, we're in an inflationary period, which inflation is good, but.

If you have assets.

Yeah, inflationary period. We can't get a mortgage, but interest rates are up. Nobody's going to be buying. Let's just rent. So we decided we rent it. And then I thought, boy, it's expensive. Like £8.5 million for a flat. And I thought, I wonder what a house Costs. I started Googling. I wonder what a castle costs. So I started Googling and then found this castle. Anyway, they ended up.

And what's the size of the castle?

All in 27,000 square feet.

Wow.

I found the castle. I contacted them later on. They contacted me back and said the deal fell through. They had on the castle. They had it for sale. It fell through. Would I want to see it? And so I said to my husband, let's go look at this castle. He goes, I don't want to buy a castle. And so we came down the next day, it was complete mess. And so I said, okay, I'll buy it. But it was half the price that the last offer was.

How much?

So they had £11 million and I offered £6.5 million, take it or leave it the next day. And they took cash. Yeah.

So you bought a Castle for 6.5 million pounds?

No, no. After we went through, what is a survey, took a couple months, the report came back and it was even worse condition than we thought because we've had to do all the inner works, the stuff you don't see, like all the gas, the, the tanks, the plumbing, the electrical. Yeah, the. Oh, I don't know what the sewage is called here, but whatever that's called here. And everything had to be redone behind the walls, including in front. But. So I said, okay, this isn't what I thought. I'll give you till tomorrow morning at 10am, but I'm taking a million off. So I got it for £5.5 million, the castle.

So a flat in Central was eight and a half, and you bought a.

27,000 with 100 at the time, 139 acres. And then we bought more land around the castle as well so we could put other things in there. So I bought it for not including the lander in the castle for £5.5 million. Right.

So why is this not inspirational to every woman and man watching this video? That is. That, to me, is inspirational. If, you know, if you can do it, maybe I can do it. Or I might not be able to buy a castle, but maybe I can work hard and set up a company and, and sell it. And why. Why is that not. I mean, most of our listeners will find it inspirational, but I'm sure we'll get some hate in the comments that that's just good business.

So it's. I mean, people look at it because they don't have it. They don't look and just say, let's cheer it on. But there's Many, many years where my husband and I went with. We rented and we had to watch the groceries every month. And we had six kids at home and plus my mother at home. And it was just. That's the way we lived. I never sat there dreaming for a castle. I just dreamed for a happy family. And I worked my butt off. And I didn't spend money. I wasn't driving a Ferrari. I wasn't driving sports cars. We drove what we needed to do to ferry the kids, and we watched everything. I went to secondhand stores to buy my suits. It was. That's what we had to do. We had to budget.

Yeah.

We didn't look like we were rich, but we weren't poor. Yeah, well, we kind of did because I had secondhand clothes. But it was. It was. And then we still kind of live like that.

Yeah.

But I think people resent that. They don't realize that they have to work really hard and not spend too much. And you actually can live your dream if you live within your budget.

Yes.

And invest back. Yes. And I think the perception is that it just happened like that, but it didn't.

Yeah. Do you think anyone can be successful and wealthy?

I do.

Anyone?

I think anyone can be.

So why are most people not?

Because they don't believe that they can be. They get in their own way. People get in front of themselves. They carry the past with them. They say, I can't do this because.

Blaming their parents or where they're from.

The jerk that left them or the guy that beat them up with your woman or the man, because whatever, his dad drank too much. They start blaming things in their past rather than say, put your past behind you, Go forward, put your head down. Look at. There's a lot of things you need to do to be successful, but in business, you have to look at distribution and all the. Think big. And you can, but you have to invest in that time and not spend too much while you're doing it.

Yeah.

But you have to think distribution. You have to think of how mass.

Distribution would work, as in how you can get your products or services out to millions of people. Maybe.

Yes. You don't want to do something where you're making baking apple pies out of your kitchen.

Not scalable.

Not scalable. So it's probably a better way to word it. It has to be scalable.

Okay. So you often get the argument from maybe people like you're referencing who are carrying this baggage. Oh, well, you know, we still need cleaners. Not everyone could be rich because we still need bartenders and all that. So now everyone can't be rich.

Maybe everybody doesn't want to be rich.

And that's okay, I guess. We're not here criticizing them, are we?

No, no. And so I don't think. It's not like we live in a world that would just change the definition of rich if we all had the same amount of money. It's not about the money, it's about building your dream and your business. If you're employing people, then what is wrong with that? You're not saying, hey, you can't have another job, you can't invest in your own business. Good on them if that's what they want to do. But there are some people that have a dream of just raising their family, having peace and quiet. They don't want to go and be entrepreneurs, they don't want to invest in business. What's wrong with that? Yeah, what's wrong with hiring and paying somebody? You're not forcing them to work, you're, you give a proper and fair pay, you look after people, you look at.

Cultural, you could contribute to their pension, do whatever. They have five weeks holiday, they have sick time, they go, they go to their anniversaries here at the castle and.

Even in the business. When I was running the finance company, we offered our employees, we'll invest in your education so when you leave here you'll be in better shape than when you came. But hopefully you never leave. Yeah, but here you want to do an mba, we'll pay for it. We do that for our employees because I believe in helping other people succeed where they want to be, but they're also returning that they have long term working with you and they enjoy their employment. Yeah, why can't you be a good employer too?

So I think a lot of people perceive that rich people, they just avoid taxes, they don't pay any tax, which of course I know is absolute nonsense. So in, in a normal year when your company was a big growth stage, what would be the rough tax bills you would pay?

It was a, it was a tough one because I was taxed about 4,45% on the gain on the sale. So I just paid it 45.

Capital gains tax. Was this in Canada?

In Canada.

So it's, it's 28 in the UK and there used to be a bit of entrepreneur's relief.

It's a little bit different in Canada because you're taxed on 50 and then another percent, but it ends up to be approximately that. And that's what I Paid in between that. In between 23 and 40%, depending on how you looked at it. And I just paid it.

How much was the tax bill?

Well, you could do the math, so I can't tell you that.

All right. You are sharp. And because you know what, I was on a show last week and I asked the chap what he sold his shares for because, you know, people are interested in the numbers. I'm not trying to trip anyone up. And he's all, I can't say. But later I asked him his tax bill and then I was able to work it back. But you're too sharp for that. But would it be fair to say you paid tens of millions in tax?

I paid a lot in tax.

Right. So you can confidently stand here and say you.

I paid all my tax.

I know that's not. Wasn't going to be my question. I would assume that.

But.

But you pay huge amounts of tax.

Yes. So I have no problem paying tax. Yeah, yeah.

So there's this stupid perception with people that millionaires and billionaires don't pay any tax. Well, number one, when you sell a company, the capital gains tax is at least 25% and it goes up to and paid 45%. You're paying VAT on everything you sell in the UK. So if you do 100 million in sales a year, then you're paying 20 million on top in VAT. You pay National Insurance in the UK 15% on every staff member that you hire and they pay national insurance. You pay corporation tax. Now, I think that's the one. Companies avoid some corporation tax by moving to different countries, but they're still vat. There's still national insurance, there's still capital gains tax. So I just want to say to everyone, it is an absolute myth that millionaires and billionaires don't pay tax. They just reduce down some corporation tax and some income tax. And you would do it too if you had a company. So I just want.

That's absolutely true. That is absolutely, absolutely true.

Okay, so let's change the subject because do you have a reality TV show?

I do.

Tell us about that.

So the. I was on the Real Housewives of Toronto and that was kind of odd because I was a woman in business, but I had hosted some other TV shows because I like that creative part of your brain.

Yeah.

And then went on the Real Housewives. Actually had never seen the show because I don't like television. Like, I don't watch tv. I don't even know how to use the clickers. I cannot Turn.

They're not called clickers. Proves it. What is it called here? They're called remote control.

Yeah.

Clicker is what you do when you do PowerPoint presentation.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Okay. Don't. Anyway, just my. I brought my kids up without television.

Wow.

So, no.

That must have been hard.

No, cable. They call it cable.

Yeah. No, in America. But yeah. Yeah.

So I did not like tv. Right. So we did things like we go camping. We do other things. But, yeah, I brought them up without it, so that's how much I don't like it.

Yeah.

And it's not tv. It's not spending time with your kids.

Yes.

So I don't want to put them in front of something, and I didn't want to have myself in front of something. It's very difficult these days because everything is accessible on a little pad.

Yeah.

But the. I was asked to do the Real Housewives. Never seen it. Then they said, okay, we need you to sign a form and watch the shows. I watched it. That. Oh, my goodness. Okay. That's what I'm in for. And so no problem. So I did the Real Housewives.

Yeah.

And then I was asked to do a show on entrepreneurship and for females. And I said, I'll do it, but not on just females. I think it should be anyone. What difference does it make? They said, no, no, no. You'd be good for doing one on females.

Yeah.

So I finally said, yes. And then when we were doing this castle, I phoned up the producers. One of the producers, and I said, we've got an offer in on a castle. It was in the survey point. And I said, I think it would be interesting to do a show instead of entrepreneurs on the renovation of a castle. And then at the point when, just before we purchased it, closed on it, I got a call, and they said, you've been picked up like the show? Yeah. And we hadn't quite closed on it.

Right.

And then I went back and I said, because I got the survey report within a day, and I went to my husband, and I went back to them and said, no, we want a million off. You've got till tomorrow morning. So that night we got the show picked up, and I went back and gave them one day to take it or leave it. My husband goes, just give them the million. Give him the million. Like you've got your own TV show. Give them a million. I said, no, no, they'll call anyway. They called.

Yeah.

Took it.

What made you so confident they'd call?

Because they knew that there were all the deficiencies in the castle. So.

But weren't you scared of losing it for a million, which isn't a huge amount of money to you?

Well, any amount of money that's not well spent. But I also knew it was going to take millions just behind the walls to bring the castle up. So the deal wasn't making any sense, given all the deficiencies, because it doesn't seem like much, but when you've got this size of a property and you have to change the boilers, the gas, and what I said is the electrical, the plumbing, everything had to be changed. The roads, the roadways, all of that, the stonework, all the stones have had to be relayed in this whole castle. So not the walls, but the stones. It was a lot.

Yeah. Because they say that, you know, the person that usually wins in negotiation is the one that needs it the least or is prepared to walk away whatever offer you give.

Be prepared to walk away.

Yeah.

Yes.

And you were prepared to walk away from this, Obviously.

Yeah, yeah.

So you didn't. So you didn't fall in love with it?

No, you cannot fall in. Well, you're in real estate. You can't fall in love with your real estate. Do not make an offer on only one property without being able to walk away. Always have a backup if this doesn't work. I've got this one. So when I've bought properties, I get the realtor to give me three options and I say, put an offer on this one. If they don't take the offer, we're going to go to number two. If they don't take that offer, we're going to go to number three. So my realtor, I don't broker, whatever.

You call them, your estate agent, same.

Thing, knows that I'm not going to just take the first offer. Right. If they don't say yes, just tell them a deal is done, go to number two. And so I don't just offer them one property, I offer on more than one. And the broker needs to have the mentality to understand I'm going to walk away. So you want to get the deal done, give them a low offer here, don't like it, go to the next one. And I. It's common sense. This is not me.

It's not easy, but it's not. It's like I'm. I really enjoyed this part. I mean, I've enjoyed the whole thing, but I really enjoyed that part because.

Do you do that?

Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like anything, I've fallen in love with a watch, a car, A property has been very expensive.

Well, my first marriage was.

I wasn't going to mention my wife, but. Oh, so did that end badly, the first marriage?

His name was Gone with the Wind, and it didn't end badly. You know, it's one of those kind of things where you just marry a nice person but the wrong person.

Right.

And so you don't marry someone because they're awful. You know, you marry someone because you think it's going to work. Yeah, but I was young when it ended, and I had two babies.

Right.

And I did not dream of being a single mom with two kids. That was not my dream.

No.

So for me, it did not end up where I wanted it to end up.

How did you handle that then?

A lot of tears.

And was it messy? Was there, like. Was it financially messy?

He never paid child support, not one dime.

Oh, wow.

So never has and never. And so it wasn't messy. It was just.

How did that make you feel?

I didn't want to go after somebody who didn't want to support me. And so why would I spend years going after somebody who didn't want to help me out? And so you can't live in a world where you're living in judgment of negativity. I mean, I had a choice.

Many people do, though, don't they?

So then it would reflect on my kids. And so I have to be an example to what I want my kids to be. And so do I want to be a negative person or crying or. I was bathing the kids when they were in a tub one day. I was bathing the kids and I started crying, and they started crying. So I was leaning over the tub and I started crying because of my sad life. And they burst into tears. And I thought, oh, my goodness, they're reflecting me. And I smartened up at that moment, thought, there's no way I'm going to have be this sobbing, oh, poor me, Mom. I'm going to get there and I'm going to go get it, and I'm going to turn my life around. And that's what I had to do.

So it strikes me that you're really in control of your emotions. That's that, like, you're talking about some things that other people would be emotional about. And I'm feeling. I'm getting an energy that, you know, well, life is life, and you just move on. And.

Don'T you have to? Because I find. I find there's life and there's death and everything else in between is actually really funny. And that when you look at people, they're actually quite humorous. I mean, Rachel Reeves, if I, I do some stand up comedy stuff, I would love to do something just on her.

I'd love to see that.

Yeah, everything. Life is really tough. When you try to raise kids, when you don't have money, when you've, when you lose parents, when you lose family or something, these are the things that are really, really tough. All the rest in between, you can have a sense of humor about. And so I think that is important to put everything that is really matters into the right category. And that is your family, your kids, life. But money, all that kind of stuff is pretty funny. It's good comedic material.

Yeah.

So if you put things in perspective, that's what matters.

Right.

So that's why I seem in control, because I don't really care.

Right. Do you not really care or have you taught yourself to not really care? Because a lot of people who say I don't care. Yeah, you do.

Well, if somebody wants to beat me up, make, I mean verbally beat me up, make fun of me, those kind of things, that's them, that I can't control what other people do, but I can control how I respond and how I act. And so. And I tell that to my kids when they have some verbal issues. It's like you can't control them, but you can control who you associate with.

Yeah.

And you can control your response. So think about what's in control and not what is not in your control. And so I just wouldn't be around somebody I don't like.

No. Has any of the hate though got to you? Any of the trolling?

Yes. So there was. There was one time I was in, in, I think it was Khan or Nice. And I was with one of the magazines and we were invited to lunch with one of the big fashion brands. I'm leaving names out just so I don't harm anybody in this. And we had done some videos with the people of the magazine and we had joked about eating carbs. And the waiter came by and he says to me, would you like pizza? And I said, oh, can you do that again? I want to do a little video on me not eating carbs. And he offers me some pizza and I said, can't you tell I don't eat carbs. Well, that went viral. And I would say 20 million views, 13 publications, newspaper publications on me not eating carbs. And 80,000 comments. I woke up negative. I woke up in the morning and it was so bad, I didn't know what to do. And it didn't stop. Every day it got worse. And so there was one of these, I don't know what they're called, these social media guys in the US that make their living off only fans girls.

Okay.

And they talk negatively about them. And the only fan girls get them to talk about them and they get more postings and they make their money off only fans. And people make their money off negative comments.

Wow.

And I had a lot of bots and they were horrible comments. Yeah. It got to me. I was. I hired a security guard. I had to hire lawyers. I had to hire public relations. I had to hire someone to take, take down all the comments because you don't wake up to negativity every day and just telling you how horrible you are, how horrible you look, what a bad person you are, how mean you are to a waiter to tell him you don't eat carbs. Why you must eat carbs. Like, who cares if I eat carbs? So it's, it was just over saying, I don't eat carbs. And it's not like I threatened somebody.

No.

And then somebody, it was nice enough to go to the waiter and posted it and said, look, I talked to the waiter. He knew all about it. But they went to the restaurant, they checked on it. They. It was. It was awful. But more money is made in negativity and fear than it's made in kindness and giving. So either I succumb to it or I try to be part of the other side. So I've got to be part of the other side. And I got to take the hits because I'm not going to be quiet. And so I'm going to be vocal about it. So I'm not going to be quiet about it.

Does money make you happy?

I'd rather have money than not have money. But it's a whole other world out there when you actually have money, it's a whole other world opens up to you think you're at a nice restaurant. Do you know what it's like to go to someone's private island and you have a different kind of thing? Or when you take a private jet to go to that private island or something. There's a whole other perception of things. Does that make you happy? It's not that the people that I meet, that I have an opportunity are different. They're all confident people. But the people that are different don't have money. That are friends of mine are all confident people, too. So I'm not saying everyone who doesn't have money isn't good. But I'd rather have money than not have money. And then I can make my choice how I want to spend it. And look at Warren Buffett, who's given most of his money to charity. Or look at Bill Gates, that's given most of his money to charity. Look at people that do, and Melinda Gates, people that have money that are able to give back. I admire that. They're good role models.

Should a woman make sure she becomes financially independent herself? Or is it okay to financially rely on a man?

I think a woman should be able to walk away and say, f you, you asshole. Don't lay another hand on me. And be able to make it on their own. And I walked away from my husband, Gone with the Wind. And I was scared when he didn't pay child support. But I'd rather walk away than stay in a position where I was not happy. And I think a woman should be independent enough that she can put a roof over her head for the kids and herself and not depend on a husband or an ex. That's it. Not maintain the same lifestyle. Because I couldn't keep my life. My husband was very wealthy. I couldn't keep the lifestyle. But that didn't matter because I could at least put the roof over my head if I went back to work, paid for that, rented a place, had the kids, bought them cheaper clothes and fed them. That's enough. But walk away from the turkey. Like put, put. Yes, walk away from the jerk. You're better off without them. Like, why can't women leave a man that is just miserable, making you never ever take crap from a guy?

Right now, I think in the world we've got this divide where on the one hand, many women are feeling it's important to become financially independent and they're career driven, you know, like yourself. But that's creating a different dynamic in a relationship. Because if you think in this castle 300 years ago, maybe the. The man would work and the woman would raise the children and look after the home. Is there no space for a woman to just raise children, support her husband and run a home? Yeah. And not have to be fine. Because if. Because to be financially independent for a lot of people, you have to go and work, you're absent from your children. It's maybe not for some women. It's not maybe a feminine perspective. You, what do you think about that?

And it's a tough one because I think that you should watch who you marry. And before you have kids with somebody, be careful who you're having kids with, because if you need to walk away, you need to make sure that you are able to at least walk out that door if there's any kind of abuse or any kind of problem. But I would love to see people stay married more like get through the crap. I don't ever take abuse, but get through the crap. Sure. I mean, there's times when I like my husband more sometimes, and other times. Doesn't mean I'm going to leave them. But we're both invested in being married. We're both invested in raising our family. Before you have a family, make sure that you're married to somebody who wants to raise a family and is aware you've actually got to put those kids first. And if your husband or spouse or wife doesn't, make sure you're willing to pick up the pieces without being negative as well.

Yeah.

So is there room for a woman to. To be the breadwinner or to not be the breadwinner and just stay home? Of course there is. But be careful what you negotiate, because you should be able to make sure there's room enough for you to leave or have a backup plan. Negotiate that up front. I don't know what the rules are in the UK for division of assets, but be prepared for the fight. And always make sure you put something aside to walk out that door.

Right. Okay.

Or know who you're spending your life with. The issue is when people have kids too young or accidentally get pregnant and then end up in a bad relationship, that's a different discussion.

Yeah. What's your biggest payday?

Oh, I think when my husband took his company public, that would be his biggest payday. But that was shocking.

Shocking how much?

He was valued at 6 billion.

6 billion?

Yeah.

Did. How did that make you feel?

Well, he didn't really talk about it. Seriously. We don't talk about our work.

And then you two don't talk about your work together?

No.

Oh, okay. Is that the secret to a long marriage, then?

Well, because I was always in finance and he was a plastic surgeon in. Focused on head, neck, throat cancer surgeon and cosmetic surgery. And for all those out there, no, you're not allowed to operate on your wife. And so however ugly I look, it's not because of him. And so the. In Canada, at least, you're not allowed to. Yeah, they. They put comments like, your husband made you look awful. And I'm thinking, thanks a lot. So it's not his fault. When he took the company public and when we were both working, we didn't. He didn't come home from operating all day and talk about that. And I didn't talk about finance. We talked about life and relax and enjoy dinner together. So it was quite surprising when he said, no, we can actually do whatever we want. And I thought that's odd because I was not used to that, but because.

I think a lot of people perceive when they get some big payday, it's a massive party, you've achieved your life goal, you know, you've got everything you want. But it wasn't like that.

No, because we always lived our lives way we wanted to. It was just suddenly I could buy that pair of shoes without thinking about it if I wanted to. Yeah, but I still, I still pick up a penny on the street if I see it, I will still negotiate everything. I'm still fair about it and I still care about the price of everything. So I'm careful. Yeah, I, I don't waste anything.

What's one lie that all rich people.

Tell right now that all rich people. Oh, I don't know, Jeffrey Epstein. How's that?

That is the first time we've asked that question. And I think that would be the best answer for a hundred years.

Isn't it funny that nobody knows them?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's your biggest mistake or regret?

I don't regret my first marriage because, you know, I can't change anything. I regret the times I didn't do something because I thought I'd have another opportunity. And well, when I worked, when I was very young, I worked with the America's cup and they invited me on the boat, the 80 foot mast and beautiful boat, to go for a sail around the harbor. And I was like, no, no, I'll go do it tomorrow. And then that they never offered again. Yeah, there's the things I didn't do. But one thing I do know is that when my parents, all of them were alive, that I spent time with them. And one thing I will go into is that my, when my mother raised me and there was a lot of abuse when I was younger and my sisters didn't, didn't survive it and they ended up in a mental institute. And when I was younger, my mom said I went back after I was 14 and then afterward I went back to help my mom and because she was dealing with going to the hospitals and they lived like in a mental institute and they didn't survive the abuse. And my mom said, I want you to leave and I want you never to come back. And I knew my mom Wanted me to live my life and be happy. So this is after I was 14, I moved back. Not home, but to help her and meaning back, back to Victoria. And I lived every day. I phoned my mom and told her how happy I was until the day she passed. Because I knew the most important thing I could give my mom was for me to be happy because she didn't have her other kids survive that. And so I regret. I would regret if I didn't just give my mom happiness. Couldn't give her money, couldn't give her anything. I had to let her know that she was loved. And she did one thing right.

How did you survive it then if they didn't?

They used to line us up. There were five girls. And he'd make us watch him beat. My mom and I would go and pull him off and. But my sisters would just watch. And I was like a little kid, and I didn't. I didn't tolerate it. Like, you're not giving that crap. And I think because I just. I just wouldn't take it because somebody had to take a stance. So at some point, somebody has to take a stance. And if nobody else is, I stepped in and took that. So it was like, you got to own it. You gotta. You gotta take your beliefs. But also, I'm not blind to when somebody else needs to be picked up and helped. So I will stop and say, don't do that. Get out of there. Don't do it.

What's a secret you've never shared or a story you've never told?

I'm not usually open about the stories of the things. I think what I've said to you today is I've never been open about the beatings. That's something I've never been. I've mentioned that there was abuse, but I never said what it was. And probably because I'm protective of my family and the history and. And then my children and my sisters. I've lost four of my sisters in the last years, recent years. And I'm protective of the legacy of our family. I don't want it to be that bad because there was a lot of beautiful things and good things, too.

How do you not become bitter and angry and full of hate?

Well, you have a choice. And I think when you're a mother, you have to lead by example. And so do I want my kids to be bitter and angry and full of hate? No, not at all. So you have to be. Mahatma Gandhi said, live what you want. Be what you want your children to Be. And I think those are very, very good words. But you can choose to be bitter and angry or you can have a sense of humor about the whole thing. But I, I don't want to be a bitter, angry person. You got one life to live. I'd rather live it with like love in my heart because there's nothing else you can give. But giving bitterness and anger is not. That's not really fun. No. And I don't want to be around bitter and angry people either. That's not my choice. And my husband is not bitter and angry.

So as you can see, I'm sure you know this already. This show is called Disruptors and you asked me earlier what that means to me, but you're the guest, so what does the word disruptive mean to you?

I think you're disrupting if you're not going with the status quo and you're actually speaking the truth. Because people don't speak what's on their mind. And I think a lot of people are afraid to because they don't want to be canceled, they don't want to get the backlash and they don't want to take the crap that you get for saying how you feel we should have freedom of speech. But I'd rather have a conversation than just a one way thing. Yeah. So a lot of times even when you do something like this, the conversation ends and then you just take all the crap. I'd rather the conversation keep going and someone says, no, I think you're wrong because of this and that's a good conversation. Rather than to say F off, get out of here or go away, have an argument back that says, actually this might be a better way to do it and maybe they'll open up something I haven't seen or you haven't seen. So I think being disruptive is doing against status quo. But I think status quo is to just be quiet and go with the flow. What is disruptive?

Are you asking me? I think that's a great definition. I think it's shaking up and changing things that you believe need to be changed and aren't done properly. Because when you do that, the existing or the old is sometimes challenged. It will struggle to hold on to its place. Like the entire civil service in the UK political system, for example. So disruption is something that is clearly out of date and old and not working properly and going shaking the tree. AI is shaking the tree of jobs, just like the industrial age shook the tree of manual labor. Because obviously there's a negative way to be disruptive.

Yeah.

But, like, if you. Even if you look at negative ways of being disruptive, kids at the back of school who were being disruptive, they weren't naughty kids. They were disengaged kids who were just screaming out for attention. So I think sometimes we misunderstand people being disruptive because we think it's bad, but actually they're just calling out for attention.

Yeah. And that's difficult because it goes back to. If you use the kids as an example, it goes back to why. And so how do you make change in that? I think there are ways to make. To make change with parenting. There are ways and things that we can do, and I hope to do things to help out with that type of thing.

So, final question. Have you got, like, a short answer to help people who might be struggling mentally?

I think you have to put your. Your past behind you and don't carry it like a weight in your backpack. I think you need to throw that out and just look forward because your whole future is ahead of you. But do not turn your. Your head backward. Look forward.

Amen. And I've really loved this. Thank you for inviting us to your castle. Thank you for coming and setting it all up because we moved a lot of things around and bringing. Bringing the knights in, and we've got this guy pulling a pint here, and thanks for the tour.

I think the knight should stay there.

You really.

Yeah.

You've really been arguing for that, haven't you?

Yeah. Yeah. And the bar is called A Good night, right? Yeah. So you go out for a good.

Night and you come to the good night bar.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

And thank you very much.

Thank you. Sa.