Reform Chairman: How to Save Britain From Incoming Disaster - David Bull

We're in a complete mess. This is the last chance saloon to change this country. We are the fastest growing political party ever seen in British history.

What would you say is the single biggest threat to the uk?

Unfettered? I think this is now a country of managed decline.

How are Labour doing?

Starmer's in serious trouble. Davos or Westminster? Davos. I suggest he leaves.

And how's Sadiq Khan? Done.

He needs to be deported. They use Covid as an excuse to wheel out a national ID card.

Wow.

This is about state control.

Day in the life of the chairman of the Reform Party.

I was on the tube, man and woman. Get on. He opened his coat and he had steak, nick and fish. It's not funny. This is 1984, where all pigs are equal, apart from some pigs.

What's the real reason Rupert Lowe left?

My understanding was that he.

Have you taken the hardest job in politics?

I think that's a great question, actually. Have I taken the hardest job in politics? No, I don't think I have. I think being Prime Minister is probably the hardest job in politics. But have I taken a very difficult job? Yes. And when Nigel called me and asked me to be chairman, and remember, this has happened before. So back in 2019, I got a call from Nigel Farage, who I did not know, asking me to stand in the European elections. Well, A, I nearly fell over the balcony when Nigel had called me and B, I thought, well, why not? And of course, the rest is history. We became the largest party in the Europe Parliament. We marched into Brussels and of course, triumphantly and resplendently, we carried the union flag out as a sovereign, independent, democratic country. So Nigel calling me unexpectedly, seems to run through my life. So he asked me to be chairman. I thought about it, but actually, in many ways it's a great fit because following on from Zia, what Nigel wanted to do was to separate the roles because actually, it's an enormous job. You're basically dealing with the public, the external facing side of this. You're dealing with the internal operation, you're dealing with all of our supporters and members and all the rest of it. You're dealing with the policies. You're dealing with so much that actually we had to sort of segment it into what we do. And. And so my skill set very much is going out talking to people, actually engaging with the members and supporters and all the rest of it. I get on well with all of the team. Hopefully they'll tell you the same. But is it a challenge? Yes. We are the fastest growing political party in this country. I think we are the fastest growing political party ever seen in British history. We are largest political party in this country as well. And if you look back even a year ago, we had 90,000 members. We now have 270,000 members. That's extraordinary.

Wow. That is. And what's the real reason Zia left resigned? I know obviously he's still in the fold, but what actually happened, you'll have.

To ask him, to be honest, because I had no sort of dealings with Zia. My understanding was that he was worked incredibly hard. He built up a network of branches, up to 400 branches. And as I said, the job was so all encompassing that he'd had enough and decided that it was game over. And that's when I was asked to come in. And I think that's when Nigel realized that actually when you. I think. I think just looking back at how the party formed, remember after the Brexit party, or certainly once we left the European Union, it was left down to me and Richard. There were only two of us left. Even Nigel disappeared. And so we went and we, we were then the Brexit party. And then we became Reform uk. Richard said to me, he came to my house in Suffolk and said, would you like to be deputy leader? And I said, richard, there are two of us in this party, so probably that would be a good thing. It's you and me. So the two of us carried on as Reform uk. We then did the branding into Reform UK because we went from a single issue party into multiple issues. And then of course, we were polling at 1.2%. We got it up to 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9%. Fast forward to today, depending on which poll you read, but 33%. If there was a general election tomorrow, we would go from having five members of parliament to 373 members of parliament, even maybe over 400 members of parliament. That is a meteoric rise by any sort of means. And actually in some ways, the reason, I think the reason Nigel called me is because I trust him. He trusts me. We've worked together for a very long time at the essence of this operation. We're a very small team. We're a tiny team and it's important that we trust each other and we understand the motivation and how we professionalize. And actually what we've done in that short space of time, I would liken to being a startup business. So Zia did the startup of this party. We're now the SME of that party, the small medium enterprise. We're now becoming the big corporate. We're not a company, but I'm sort of using my analogy from running a business.

So does that mean they'll kick you out soon and get someone with big business experience?

That may be true, but of course. So. So. And I've seen this before, so I ran a PR company and I started with four staff and I ended up with 50 staff and offices in London, San Francisco and in LA as well. And of course, as you grow, and I can see it again, you get the same problems coming back time and time again. You start getting silos and you start getting sort of like in any business, you get people who are briefing against other people and all the rest of it. So I try to keep as flat a structure as I possibly can. It's really important that the staff here are invested in what we're doing. And the fundamental thing, and this is the most brilliant thing, we've got great young people, we've got older people, but they have a single mission which is to turn this country around. Lovely.

So that's why I asked if your job's the hardest job in politics because of how fast you've grown.

Yeah.

How small you are, how disruptive you are and how you could end up being, you know, the. The party.

We could.

How long has reform been going?

So we. So 2019. So reform 2025. So we are basically four years old.

And how old's Labor? Hundreds of years of nearly 200 or something.

Yeah. So. So that's exactly. So we're basically pitching against the two monolithic parties that have defined British politics for hundreds of years. So here we are, this young upstart.

You're like a Highland terrier, aren't you? Like a little Westy terrier.

You know, maybe I'd like to see us as a sort of. We defy all the norms and constraints. And just because things have always been done in a certain way doesn't mean we have to do it in the same way.

Ye.

But what we are doing, and one of the things that I was very keen to do when I came in, was to ensure that we talked to our members and supporters, because those parties. And I think we fell into that trap as we grew and it became bigger and bigger and bigger, we lost sight of actually what the core mission is, and that is to look after our members and supporters. So my chairman's tour, which I've been on for six months, I've seen 6,000 people in that six months. I've spoken in 36, 37 venues around the country. I've been to Scotland and Wales and all over the place, in village halls, in pubs, in working men's clubs. And the sense is extraordinary. I walk in, I get a standing ovation before I start, not because I'm any good, but because. Because they're so thrilled that I'm out and about and it's palpable. I can see what's going on in the country. So let's take Liverpool, for example, tribally, traditionally a Labor seat, right. In the general election, they got 80% labor vote. The polling now shows 40% would vote Labour. We're now late 20s in Liverpool. So then if you start looking at the map, those seats which are deemed to be safe Tory seats, safe Labour seats, there isn't such a thing anymore. And then you have to. But also, I think there's lots of other things going on behind the scenes. So the Conservative Party have forgotten what it is to be Conservative, the Labour Party. And this is the most interesting thing for me. Keir Starmer has no belief structure, no ideology. I don't think think he actually believes in anything. And when you look at the budget, for example, if you were to design a budget which attacks pretty much everyone in this country in whichever sector you work in, you'd come up with that dog's dinner that they've come up with. And so when you. I live in the country, when I talk to the farmers, the way they've been treated, they are apoplexic. For farmers to go down Whitehall in their tractors, takes a lot for them to be that exercised. Small businesses shutting. I spoke to my electrician three days ago. He cannot afford to take on young people he wants to train because of employer national insurance, for example. So you've got pubs closing, you've got the cost of energy, you've got the nonsense of net zero, got Ed Miliband saying, oh, we're going to build windmills everywhere. Is that what people want? I don't think they do.

So what do you think the real state of the UK is? I mean, I know you're a political party, I know you want to get in, but honestly, balanced, what's the real state of the uk?

I think we're in a complete mess. And one of the lines that I use on my tour is to say that I honestly believe this is the last chance saloon to change this country, because it's not the country I recognized when I grew up. A proud nation. I think this is now a country of managed decline. Why would you stay here a quarter of a million people have left Already this year, 11,000 non doms have left. So what they're doing is they're taxing people so highly that these highly mobile, I grant you, wealthy people are leaving. But wealthy people create jobs. Then you've got young people who can't get training, so they're disenfranchised. You've got a rise in diagnosis, like adhd, for example. I'd like to look at actually what that diagnosis looks like. You've got a million kids aged 18 to 25 not in education, employment or training, that all of that taken together is managed decline. It's just a downward spiral.

So when you say managed decline, you mean intentional decline?

No, I just think.

Not the ability.

I just think there's a lack of ability at the top of government. And here's another thing. So not one member of cabinet has ever run a business. Not one. Really. So how can you say to Rachel Reeves, great example. So, fine, I'm going to put up employer national insurance from 13.8% up to 15%. Do you actually know what that means?

Means Well, I have 100 staff, it cost me about 100 grand a year. And you probably need to make 750, 800 in extra revenue if your net profit margins, what, 15. That's the reality. So then what you do is you don't make your next five hires and then employment goes, unemployment goes, and that.

Is what the electricians are saying. So they're not doing that. And then workers rise. So you can have day one workers rise. What? Why would you do so? Why would you employ anyone? Yeah, so again, you know, we need to start looking at how do we incentivize? We've got really bright people in this country, how do we incentivize them to achieve? Back in the day, when I started my business, the first one, at the age of 13, I was incentivized because I believe that everything I did I would keep or, you know, a degree of that I'd keep and I would grow and I did and it grew into that PR company. But if you were a young person now, would you stay in this country? The answer is no, you wouldn't. You go to South Africa, Australia, where actually the work life balance is much better. I so, so I think also the elephant in the room is immigration in this country, both legal and illegal immigration. The fact is we've. Well, you've seen it on the streets, you know, you've got flying the colors, you've got this terrible kind of boiling pot, actually at the moment and it will spill over.

Wow. What would you say is the single biggest threat to the UK if you had to pick one area?

Unfettered immigration. That's the one I think it is. And that is what I find resonance with around the country. So we can talk about cost of living, not having enough jobs, for example, but actually it's the destruction of the British psyche, the destruction of what it is to be British. I think that's our biggest problem. And by that I mean, you know, 3.8 million people came here under the Boris wave. Legally, half of that 3.8 million will never work. 40% are low skilled, many do not speak English. In East London, where I have a flat, I don't recognize it. There are people walking around the streets who are literally living in silos, who do not speak English, who do not have shared and common values with people who grew up in this country. Now, we should have been much stricter, much tougher, much earlier to say, look, you're welcome to come to this country, but you subscribe to our values and share beliefs.

Why has that not happened?

Because they're chicken. I think it's a failure by successive political governments to allow it to happen. When I was a junior doctor just going back some way, I used to look, go to tower blocks in West London, East London, and even then. So I graduated in 93, so I'm talking about sort of 95. We already had silos building in Whitechapel in East London and no one checked it. So what we should have done is to have true integration with common values, common purpose, all the rest of it. But we didn't do that. We allow people to live in these silos where they abide by their own laws and cultures and values. But unless you have an overarching thesis and a cohesiveness, then you're doomed.

Wow. Do you think it's maybe that we've become very left, or dare I say woke? Because I guess the a more left ideology is inclusion for everyone and treat everyone fairly.

Sure, but. But there's nothing wrong with inclusion, actually. But I hate positive discrimination. So inclusion is fine because we should try and be, well, we're including everyone.

In the world in this country.

Well, that is the great point, isn't it? So. So the fact is that for every illegal migrant that comes here, it costs you, me, the taxpayer, £41,000 a year. Now, that's not government money.

That is there is no government.

There is no government. But you go to the East End and tell people that these People who can't actually afford to put food on their table. They're paying 41 grand for someone who's rocked up on a boat illegally. I mean, all of this is wrong. And yet successive governments have failed to deal with this. So going back to the biggest issue, and the issue people will vote on is immigration. Because when you have 38,000 people coming here illegally this year and 50,000 since labor came to power, this is unfair. So you rock up in this country, you chuck your passport in the sea, you claim asylum, you get looked after, you get food and meals and taxis and Zumba dancing or whatever else you.

Get, station all that, all that.

And then you say to people, well, for young people who are pregnant, there's no council housing. There's a hotel chain as well, which I won't name, but they essentially have racked up their prices because they have been blocked, booked by the government to put in asylum seekers. Now, I'm sorry, that's not acceptable. There are other hotel chains and I will name them. Premier Inn did not do that. And I think that's very credit worthy.

Yeah. How are labor doing, honestly?

Well, I think even labor know they're absolutely in trouble. You can see it. Keir Starmer. So the Prime Minister is meant to be the first minister. The name, the clue is in the title. So you're the first minister, you exude confidence, you tell people the direction of the country. Look at that Labour Party conference he sent out no vision. In fact, all he did in that conference was attack us. He said, Nigel Farage is not patriotic, which I found absolutely despicable. I don't know a more patriotic man than Nigel. And then he called me, our members and supporters, racist. And so when you start doing that, you're playing the ball. You're playing the man and not the ball. And so that shows to me that they don't know what they're doing. And that is also clear with the budget, for example. So the briefings, the counter briefings. So we had no idea what they were going to do because they were road testing it. And you can see this. And this is what I hate about the government at the moment, is that there are pre announcements, aren't there? And then they see how that goes down with the public before they actually announce it. Now, back in the old days, that didn't happen. You would give an announcement and that would be that. So how is the government doing? Well, if you wanted to destroy pretty much everything this country stands for, give away our fish, for example, for the next 12 years. Remember, Brexit was taking back control of our money, laws, borders and fish. So they give away the fish. They've given away the Chagos Islands, by the way, to Mauritius, a country that's never owned the Chagos Islands against the wishes of the Chagossian people. They put inheritance tax on farmers, by the way, how many of that front bench have actually been to a farm? Not many. And so when you talk to farmers, as I do all the time, this is going to affect 70,000 farms. A third of farms make a loss. And now we've got elderly farmers who don't know what to do, who are thinking of committing suicide because they can see no way their farms can survive. And we're in increasingly global instability. So what we should be doing is doing what we did in the war, dig for Britain, grow British crops. Instead we're covering fields with solar panels, we're taxing farmers. You know, the government is so out of touch that it says a million pounds and we put inheritance tax on. On top of that, a combine harvester is a million pounds. No one in government knows that. So when I talk to my friends, they're like, I don't see the point in carrying on. So we've attacked them, we've attacked the small businesses, we've attacked the pubs. Then of course, the price of energy is now the highest in the Western world. This is because of net zero, which by the way, no one voted for. What we should have done, and I said this right at the beginning, is have cheap nuclear power, which we can do with Rolls Royce, for example, the SMRs. I grew up near size. Well, so I'm very aware of the Magnocs, the PWRs that were built in size. Well, as a 13 year old I was so intrigued by nuclear power. I thought we were going to build loads of them and here we are some 40 years later. Remember anything? That's what I mean by there's no vision, there's no. I think one of the other things that I find fascinating is that everything is so short term. So you're there for the parliamentary term, Heathrow airport. Let's look at that. Any national infrastructure. What we need is a national infrastructure plan for 30 years, 50 years, a what are we going to do and then ensure that, whether that's cross party or however you do that, that we stick to the plan. The idea that we have one of the busiest airports in the world at Heathrow and we've only just got the go ahead for the third Runway is ridiculous. We need A hub airport. We also need to encourage regional infrastructure and investment, but again, no one makes any decisions. So, just going back to Keir Starmer, what does he believe in? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. He believes in himself. And his most telling comment was when he said he prefers Davos to being in the United Kingdom. Well, I suggest he leaves.

Are Labour socialist or has it gone even further left than that? I mean, this digital ID thing that they just released recently, if we're going to have these central digital currencies, does feel like communism to me.

Well, don't you think it's odd, and I speak as a medic, that in Covid they suddenly had a COVID vaccine passport ready to go?

Don't they take decades to come up with vaccines?

They do. So not the vaccine itself, but the digital id.

Oh, right, yeah.

How did they manage to do that so quickly? The answer is because they already had it.

Right.

That is a national ID card. Remember Blair tried to get that through. So this is what I think. I think they use Covid as an excuse to wheel out a national ID card.

Wow.

And you look at that NHS app, which is now rolling out increased functionality the whole time. It knows everything about you. In Covid, it triangulated you. So I flew back on a flight some. I got pinged to say someone on my plane had got Covid and I had to self isolate my. I live on my own. My mum came around with some shopping because I couldn't go out and the next thing I know I get a bang on the door from the COVID police who had triangulated my phone, who knew I was in that house. That's like living in Nazi Germany. I don't like that. And so during COVID many people turn their phones off so they could be free. We are sleepwalking, running till, you know, headfirst into a dystopian society. So digital id. Oh, stop the illegal immigrants. That's the. That's what they say, right? £1.8 billion. That's what we're going to do. We're going to stop illegal migrants. If you come across on a small boat, that is not going to stop you, is it? You're going to forge your digital id. What it will do, you'll be made to show your digital id. If you haven't done enough green stuff, they will stop you flying, they will stop you buying whatever you want to do. They will be able to stop your electric car running. And they've already mooted this because when your car. I drive an electric car. When Your car is plugged into the grid. They can also take the electricity out of the car.

And I imagine with the Online Safety act, what if they don't like a social media post that you put up?

So they stop.

They stop all of that.

They can stop anything you want to do. So I think we need to be really careful because it's being pushed as this. Oh, it will help you. It will mean just, just in terms of id, we already have national Insurance numbers. Yeah, so we already have that.

We do.

We don't need a digital id. This is all a nonsense. This is about state control. And now we're talking about the banks being able to directly debit from your account without your say so. This is 1984 where all pigs are equal, apart from some pigs. And so going back to your. I'm very serious about this. I can see, I'm very serious.

Just wondering if those windows open. I can just jump out of the 24th floor.

But I think we can stop it. But the point is, I don't think. Look, the public are so busy wondering how they're going to put food on the table or heat their homes or all the rest of it. Let's adhere. Just going back to Keir Starmer, removing the winter fuel allowance. What, you're okay for elderly people to die, are you? I mean, it was just a most horrific piece of legislation that he was trying to push through. And having worked as a medic, elderly people need warmth and care. And so this all links back into hospitals. So now we've got the junior doctors going on strike, which I think is abhorrent on every single level. So they've already had. What do they get? 22% plus 5%. So 27%. They want another 26%. That, that would be the 55% uplift. Meanwhile, the salaries are not that bad and they have a capped working time directive, so they don't do the hours that I used to do. But if you said to anyone who runs a business, I'll give you 55% pay increase, I think they'd be pretty happy. Do I blame the resident doctors or junior doctors, as I would call them? No. I blame a nasty left wing union who is taking advantage not just of the doctors, but of the patients. And so we are now seeing patients on trolleys, in corridors. We're going to see elderly people die. When did we last see this? In Covid. So something horrific, in fact, although I don't agree with a lot of what Wes treating says, I actually think this is the Tipping point for the nhs, because I'm not sure it can survive. So I've written our policy, which it remains free at the point of delivery. And then just in terms of that, when people say it's RNHS, it's wonderful. It's not. Our cancer survival rates are 15 years behind Europe. 15 years. So is that great service? No, of course it's not. And this then comes back to much bigger problems, which is that if I was to design the nhs, would I start with what we've got? Answer? No, I wouldn't. You have to completely rethink it. And it's such a complicated policy that you'd have to put forward because you then have to work out how do you engage people at the moment, it's too passive. So the punter sits there and goes, well, it doesn't matter if I'm fat, because it's free. But it's not free, none of it's free. So I'm. This is very long winded answer back to labor, which is labor doesn't know what it is. So labor is a dysfunctional party. It's not one party either. So at the moment, you've got people from who are very left wing, you've got people who are left of center and you've got more pragmatic ties. What is interesting is the rise of the Green Party.

Well, interesting is an interesting word. They want completely open borders.

Open borders, yes. Yeah.

What is he on? They want to abolish landlords.

That's right.

Could you completely abolish them?

Well, they want everyone to be equal, don't they? Apart from them, because they'd be the rulers. Have we not learned anything from history? I mean, it's all pie in the sky. And the fact that Zach Polanski isn't his real name makes me have alarm bells.

Anyway, he's got an interesting history as well.

He's very talented when it comes to hypnotism. I understand, but.

So they're getting quite, quite powerful. They're nearly up there. In the. In the opinion of Labor.

They are. They are. So the latest poll today put us 10 points ahead of labor, but, yes, they're not that far behind Labor. So labor now has to decide, what does it do? So the Greens are eating them from the left. Do they tack right? Well, that's very difficult for them because that's where their Tory Party currently is.

Yeah.

Or was. Or was. Yeah. So then you've got us who are. I mean, we keep being called Far A Far right. I don't think we are. We're just right. We're just right. We're right of center. Look, I'm socially liberal but fiscally very conservative with a small C. So you've got, you've got all of this going on. But what is fascinating to me is I walked across the road from lunch earlier. Black cabby yells go, David, we're all behind you now. When the black cabs do that, you're on a winning streak.

Yeah. Are you not scared though of a possible left coming together? Because that could, you know.

Yes, that could hurt you. Well, I think one of the things that I keep saying to everyone here is, yes, we're doing well, but complacency is our biggest problem because we also have to deliver at local council level.

Yeah.

We also then have to get ready for these elections in Scotland, Wales and all the rest of it. But also they will do anything to stop us. Anything. Yeah. And that may be. I mean, Jacob Rees Mogg made the point about Nigel saying that I wouldn't be at all surprised if you're in prison because through some concocted charges, they'll do anything. So the establishment is deeply worried about this upstart. But we've come at this with fresh ideas. We've got great people, we're taking soundings from people who've actually done stuff. Imagine having a business secretary who's run a business, for example. Wouldn't that be wild? Or having health secretary who's been a doctor or a nurse. That is actually what we should be doing. Yeah. And this is something Nigel and I have talked about a great deal because at the moment you've got this kind of bizarre system. You get elected as the Member of Parliament for Saffron Walden, having worked in insurance and nothing rude with insurance, but. And then you're the, you know, head of the Ministry of Defense. Doesn't seem very sensible to me that.

No, no, I. Jeremy Hunt was on the show not long back and he said to me, well, you know, I'm not an economist, like you were the Chancellor and nobody gives me a helicopter view.

Like.

Yeah, like not even done anything in economics and he was the Chancellor running the UK economy.

Yes, you see, I mean, it's laughable, isn't it? It's like me being Chancellor. I mean, everyone should leave if I become Chancellor, I wouldn't know what I'm doing. But at least we're honest about that. So what we are now doing in preparing for government and there's a long way to go, isn't there? So this election allegedly is in four years. I don't believe that for a minute. It's coming faster than that. Starmer's in serious trouble. I think Kemi's upped her game, but I still don't think she's got the cut through that she wants. But the Labour Party is about to fracture big time. So as we said, so they'll peel off to the Greens. You've got West Streeting on maneuvers in a joint ticket with Ange, who wants to come back in, who inadvertently broke the housing rules. I mean, I'm really sorry, you, you know, you can draw your own conclusions from that, but if these are the people setting the example to the electorate, then are these really the best politicians we've got? Yeah. Wow.

What if the only way you guys could get in is with a coalition with Conservatives? Would you do it?

Well, we've done it before, haven't we? We stood down, didn't we? We gave Boris Johnson an 80 seat majority, if you recall.

I do.

I was there because I stood down. Down. And that was a complete disaster. He never got Brexit done. He got an oven ready deal. Do you remember that? Oven ready deal? It hadn't been anywhere near enough. It wasn't a deal. And. But of course, then what we ended up with was a complete and utter mess. Where we. Where Northern Ireland completely abandoned. 2 million UK citizens left to fend for themselves. A border in the rsc. You tell me. Any other country like France. Oh, I'll tell you what, we'll put a border in the middle of France, we'll put a border in the middle of Spain. Wouldn't happen. So he was weak, he was played. And I blame Theresa May, actually, because she agreed to the sequencing of the eu. I worked there. They're very clever. So they use the Northern Ireland protocol to whip the United Kingdom. Now, I would never have agreed to that sequencing because you have to then decide what are the major principles and we'll work out. Of course, Northern Ireland is complicated, but there are ways and means around that. That.

So would you do it again?

So the answer categorically is no. Now, having said that, from our point of view, the answer is no.

Yeah.

But also what we're seeing is people who are truly aligned to us coming across. Now, I think there is a risk and I want to have a cutoff date where I don't want failed Tories coming across.

When you were you Conservative?

I was. A long time ago. Yes. Yeah.

How did. How did that end? And this start?

I. So it all started this. There's a great story here. I. I was in television at the time and I went to Jeffrey Archer's drinks party and I met this chap and I said, what do you do? And he said, I'm an mp. And I was like, oh, well, you're a bunch of idiots. You know, you don't do anything, you just talk, you know, you have lunch. And he said, well, two hour lunch. Two hour lunch if. Yeah, if not, three. And he said, well, if you think you're so clever, you do it. So I was like, right, you, I will. So I ended up on David Cameron's A list. And then I applied and I got the seat of Brighton Pavilion. Goodness knows why I chose that, because it's the most difficult seat to win ever. But never mind. Threw myself into it. Bought a. Bought a flat there and everything. And then my father became terminally ill and I went home to be with my parents and my dad very sadly died and I was there looking after my mum and my brother and sister and I got a phone call from the local association saying, if you don't come back, this is like two days after my dad died, we're going to deselect you. Someone's like, well, you can stick it. And then David Cameron asked Eric Pickles to meet me and we met in Parliament or just outside, like in spooks looking over the river on a bench and we didn't look at each other. And Eric said to me, david has told me I'm to do anything to keep you. And I said, like what? He said, well, we really want you to remain with the party. And I said, look, you tell me the whole time that you're the party that believes in family and yet you've done this to me and I'm sorry, I'm out. And that's the end of my story with the Conservatives.

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Well, so I think lots of things, actually, to look entirely at the tax system. So at the moment you. At the moment, there's no incentive to work. That's one of the things that I think is really important. So we want to raise the tax threshold to 20,000 pounds. So take loads of people, as in first 20,000. First 20,000 tax rate. That would change a lot of dynamics because actually it would allow young people to actually keep some more of their own money. I would like to see lower taxes across the board because then again, businesses can use their profit to reinvest to train British people. That seems a very sensible solution to me. Immigration as Operation Restoring Justice. We are going to detain and deport you and we will leave the European Convention on Human Rights. We have to do that.

Will you actually be able to do that?

Yes, absolutely. But also, look, the Conservatives are now saying we can leave the European Convention on Human Rights. Well, why didn't you then? What were you doing? So we need to get on top of the illegal migration problem. Shut the hotels, all of this is absolutely unacceptable. And stop. And Basically, of the 3.8 million I spoke about who came over on the Boris wave, a million are about to get indefinite leave to remain. A million. That means they will be able to get benefits. They can live off the state, they're not working, all the stuff I told you earlier. So we are going to abolish indefinite leave to remain. We are going to give you the opportunity to apply for a visa, five year renewable visa, rather like Australia does, actually, where you have to have a certain threshold of income, but crucially, you will not be able to claim welfare or benefits if you're here on a visa, same in the States. So that seems eminently pragmatic to me. So that's. Immigration is part of that. Secondly, thirdly, we'll scrap net zero, the idea that we move towards a greener, cleaner future. Fine, but it's so arbitrary. What was it? You know, 20, 30, for no apparent reason, plucked out of thin air. Now we've got the mandates of phasing out cars, all the rest of it, penalizing manufacturers. All of that's nonsense. Voters and consumers will do what they want and they already don't really like electric cars. It's fine for someone like me who has a detached house where I can charge my car with solar panels, which I happen to have at home, but if you live in a terraced house in, I don't know, North London, it's very difficult to do that. So, again, scrapnet zero. We want cheap energy. And the minute you have cheap energy, that solves a lot of problems. Let's look at steel, for example, factories. Let's look at industrial units. It also changes pubs. So the energy cost of a pub is what is actually causing them to close. A pub a day is closing. Wow, that's terrible.

Yeah.

And also in a village where I live, my pub shut up. Now for elderly people, and this is kind of where it all goes full circle. Elderly people need a social hub and the pub is that place. So you can go to the pub.

It's British culture, isn't it?

It is British culture, but you see your neighbors and you talk and you're not lonely. Elderly people who become lonely become ill and they go to hospital and then we end up in all the problems that we've got currently. So I'd like to see that from. Given that I'm healthy. I also want to see a radical rethinking of the NHS so it remains free at the point of need. The delivery mechanism behind that is irrelevant to me. So we already have private provision behind that. So. Recently I had a lump removed. My appointment was on the NHS. The appointment was 3:30 and I was seen at 3:32. I had the lump removed and I was out by 3:42. And I said to the surgeon, that's amazing. You are now working in a private clinic but paid for by the NHS on a tariff rate. And he said, yeah, the reason I left the NHS is because I can do eight times the operations that I could in the nhs. It's really efficient. They have two treatment rooms, so one patient is prepped, he's operating in this one, he walks across the corridor and operates on this one whilst this one gets ready. If you look at hospitals, my friends are consultant surgeons. The average surgeon is operating twice a week currently. Wow. What a mess.

Yeah.

And the reason? Because there isn't the theater capacity, the theaters are old, the notes aren't there, people might be off sick. So going back to the nhs, does it need more money? No, it really doesn't. Spending 250, 260 billion quid on the NHS.

Wow.

11.7 of GDP. We're spending a huge amount of money, so it's going in at the top. So the lefties will tell you, I need more money. But they're probably. That's what the lefties do. Well, they do. What was it that just said about socialism? The problem is you run out, run out of other people's money. But, but the more money you put in at the top and you've got a problem, you get an expensive problem. And that's what we've now got. We've got this expensive problem. So let's look at what is going on currently. So we have no capacity, no beds, we have nowhere to treat anyone. The gps. Here's another thing, the GPS don't work for the nhs, you know that. No, they're all private. Private businesses. Right, all gps. Yeah, but the public don't know that.

No.

So all this nonsense of, oh, it's our NHS and it's, you know, it's, it's never been like that. So it has to be streamlined. There's another thing that we need to do is I need to empower people to take control of their health somehow. I don't have all the answers yet, but I'm working on it. So health right up there in terms of what we need to do. So the economy, you know, we should be giving tax breaks, we should be actually cutting tax, allowing businesses to come in. I want young people to actually have great ideas and employ people, and employ British people and make sure that, you know, they're not. So regulation is dropped, all of this nonsense. So I think those are probably the most key points that we need to do. I think also in an increasingly unstable world, we need to spend far more money on defenses. I think we're in very dangerous territory at the moment and we have relied far too long on the United States and Trump has obviously challenged that status quo. But I think people in this country are resilient, they're willing to work hard. But right now what I get from anyone I meet is why bother? Because you get taxed, you just get fleeced. You have to allow people to earn money and feel that they're making a difference and they're not just existing, they're actually living. And so when I look at the take home pay of people who work two, three jobs, they're earning less because of tax and everything than people on benefits. This is utter madness.

Is it true you're thinking about bringing back the death penalty?

At first I've heard of it.

Well, Grok thinks you might be.

Well, I haven't spoken to Grok for a while.

I don't normally as having a chat with it on the way. I don't normally ask Rock when the interviews.

Well, okay, I'd have to think about that. It's not party policy, let me tell you that.

Yeah.

Should we bring Back the death penalty. Now, the people against it would say, what happens if you make a mistake? And I get that. But equally, I'm a great believer in zero tolerance, like Giuliani showed in New York. So the Smash Windows policy, it worked? It did. So 250,000 kids carry knives. Quarter of a million kids carry knives to school. So we need to make it. I'm sort of answering this in a tangential way, but yeah. So we need to make a very clear to young people that is not okay. We need to also have stop and search. The police know who the troublemakers are. So we need to have zero tolerance. Would I go so far as the death penalty? I think that's a matter of personal conscience. Yeah.

So that's a no.

It's not necessarily a no. So, for example, people who commit horrific rapes, multiple rapes, where we actually have 100% evidence against them, as we've seen recently, do they have a right to live when they've destroyed people's lives? I'd have to think about that. But it's a personal issue.

Yeah. So are you saying you'd give the police more powers? Is that what you were saying before?

I would. I'll tell you what I would do. And I have many friends who are police officers. Get them out from under their desks. They need to be on the streets. We need visible policing like we used to have. So when I was growing up, if you. I may have been a bit naughty. If I was a bit naughty, you would get a clip around the ear from the police officer who knew where you lived and you didn't do it again. Now you can go. You. They've decriminalized shoplifting. You can go and nick 199 quid of stuff. Why work if that's basically free? Well, I was on the tube and I saw this man and woman get on and they had a pram and I thought, oh, they got a baby. It wasn't a baby, it was full of steak. And then he opened his coat and he had steak and fish all inside his jacket. I mean, yeah, I should laugh.

It's not funny.

It's not funny. It's not funny. And actually, there are a couple of people in this office who I think are mad, but they do this. They stop people who they see. Nicky. Stuff in shops. Yeah, but I'm always worried that you get stabbed.

Yeah, but if we all just watch.

Well, that's also true. That's also true. But, ah, so that's another interesting thing that brings us back to society. Because also when I grew up, we knew our neighbors, we knew everyone. That's all gone. Now, obviously, London's a bit difficult because you've got a transient city, but certainly in these villages and towns, I kind of go back to the publishers. If you don't have the pub, you don't know your neighbors. So a lot of this is eminently soluble. I think that also one of the other things I'm very struck by is the death of the high street. Amazon has killed everything and many of us are guilty of using that and many other online portals. But what it has done is it stopped those small independent businesses from thriving. Now, what can we do? Am I suggesting we shouldn't stop it? We can't. Of course we can't. But what we can do is to have business rates that were so low that actually it would encourage startups to go into there, for example, so that we reinvigorate the high streets so elderly people have someone to chat to. There are so many pieces, but those are kind of the key benchmarks. So just in terms of policy, I am, as chairman, I'm aware that we have a lot to do. I think there's the understatement of the year. So we now have policy working groups, because I don't know everything about everything thing. I try, but I don't. So. So, for example, we now have a group of lawyers, very senior cases, who are working through the judicial process and what we would do, for example, with the Attorney General, for example, medics. So why don't we actually ask people who worked in the health service to come up with, what would you do? How do you incentivize Ara Darzi, who wrote the Darzi Report? I work for him. He was my sr, Senior Registrar when I trained. He's identified. He's a Labour peer, he's identified pretty much what I agree. The NHS is in dire need of resuscitation and we need to do something and do it quickly. Let's learn from other countries what models work for them, because pouring money into a bottomless pit isn't actually going to do anything apart from give you a very expensive pit. So then again, you know, bring in people who've actually run business. What are we going to do? How do we incentivise? The whole point of Brexit was that we can do whatever we want, but we can't whilst we still attach to the EU through Northern Ireland. So let's become Singapore on Thames. Let's drop tax revenues because also the ultra Wealthy only hide their money when they see their tax burden go up so much. So when you flatten it to a degree, then actually your revenues go up. And the Laffer curve will prove that out.

Yeah, I want to talk about that because I'm an entrepreneur, have been for 20 years.

I know. Congratulations.

Thank you. Yeah.

I should take some tips. Yeah.

And the, the incentives all seem perverse and the wrong way around and all the penalties for all the people that are actually building wealth. And I've had loads of friends that have left for various different countries in the world, mostly Dubai, and we've got tens of thousands of millionaires leaving. How can we make the UK a better place to run a business? And how can we not have this politics of envy, of success?

It's really interesting that. So when I lived in America, people say, hi, what do you do? And you would say, I'm, you know, they always overplay anyway, so they'd say, I'm an award winning entrepreneur and I've made millions. But what's interesting is the response now, but, oh, wow, that's amazing. In this country we taught. Yeah. So we have to change the mindset around that, which is actually aspiration and doing well is a great thing. We should champion that. And we're starting to get there. But we need to basically have tax breaks to allow people to succeed. We need pots of money. You need to going back to preparing for government. I want to talk to private equity, I want to talk to VCs to understand actually what would help them. How do you unlock that? How do we help them to do that? Because that, as you know, know the biggest barrier to any young entrepreneur is access to cash and cash flow. And so to have people coming on board in some way with some scheme that actually empowers you but at the same time mitigates their tax bill has to be a good thing.

But if you think a flatter, a flat tax code.

I do think that could work, but I'm not an economist, so.

No, I think, I'm just asking you.

Well, these are the things that we look at. Because actually when you look at the Laffer curve, what it shows to me is that actually by flattening the tax brackets that you actually increase revenue. Yeah. So it seems nuts to me that if you are a middle earner, you're paying what, 50, 60% of your income disappears. So going back to you, and that's.

Just income, that's not capital gains, that's not all the other types of taxes.

And then let's look at inheritance. Yeah. Shall we? And all the rest of it. So then you start thinking on your deathbed, why did I bother, Father? You've already paid tax on your house. I would abolish inheritance tax. I think it's the most iniquitous tax ever, actually. But again, VAT on private schools is another one, which I would abolish tomorrow, because all that did is, it was people who are jealous. In the Labour Party, the people who suffered from the VAT imposition on private school fees are the parents who do two, three jobs to send their kids to private school, who don't have holiday. The multimillionaires didn't touch them.

No.

So what's happened? All the small independent schools are closing and now the state is paying for kids to go 50, 60 miles in the back of a cab to. To. To a state school. It's nonsense. Yeah, it's total nonsense. But again, you know, it's. I want. It needs to be a meritocracy, doesn't it? And again, it goes back to university entrance. It's swung the other way now, so we. I want the best and the brightest to be given those chances. But equally, what I want to see is more. More apprenticeships. I want to see, actually, when people say, well, have you. Have you met a poor plumber? Because I haven't. You know, they do very well and we need to encourage that. We need to encourage people to do well and set up businesses.

Yeah, we do. Who's your biggest threat? You're top of the opinion polls at the moment. Who's the biggest threat? Is it Labor? Is it Conservatives? Is it the Green Party?

It's not Labor. Is it the Conservative? I don't think it's any of them. I don't think it is, actually.

Is that hubris to say that?

I don't think any of them are the threat. I think the biggest threat could be our complacency. Maybe your inexperience could be just for.

The youth of the party not being disrespectful.

I think it's also being tripped over. I think the media plays a role in this because let's just look at our councillors. Labor and the conservatives have lost 400 councillors. Do you ever read about that? You hear about our ones, don't you? So, again, you know, you think there's.

Some targeted smear campaign?

Oh, there is, without a doubt. I mean, look at question time. It's absolutely appalling what they did. They brought over illegal migrants and stuck them in the. In the Question time, audience. And see, had a terrible time with them.

But, I mean, not everyone thought that. Some people thought he handled himself quite well, I think.

Well, he did, but it would. But it was an unfair playing field. I think he did very well. But. But the point I'm trying to make is actually, I think we. We are making these slow steps, but it's a long game and I can see that. And we're putting in all these processes and everything. You mentioned the Tories and the Labour Party being old in many ways. That's their. Their, Their forte because they come from heritage and stock. It's also their biggest liability because they think they have a divine right to rule. And I don't think they do.

Wow. And you look very serious when you say that. You're like, I'm coming for you.

We are coming. We are coming for them. Make no mistakes about it. I mean, if I. So it's very funny. I'm reading all the time at the moment. Oh, has reform reached its platter, though? They said that when we were at 12% and now they said it at 20%. They're now saying it at 33%. Ask people in the street, if this lot bothered to get out of Westminster and went round the country, as I do, they would be in no doubt how people are going to vote for. And there's another really interesting thing. When the opinion polls ask people how they're going to vote, we also have shy reformers, so they won't tell the pollster they're voting for us.

Is that because they're worried about being, oh, you're extremist, you're racist, you're far right.

Yes.

Right. But you think those people would come out with. In voting time?

I do. And I have a lot of people who come up to me who attack me and then whisper, by the way, I'm with you. It's really interesting.

That is interesting.

Yeah. But across the board. So this might be media or insensitive or the civil service. I was outside a hotel where I was staying and this lady came up to me and said, I want to thank you for what you're doing. I can't tell you this, but I'm a civil servant and I'm voting for you. Wow.

And how are you going to recover economic growth because it's so poor?

It is. But again, as I say, you know, if you actually reduce the burden of regulations on businesses, for example, if you slash tax, if you actually allow people to do what they do really well, then people will go out and thrive. Employee national insurance has to be reduced immediately. The threshold again moving to 5,000. Absolutely ridiculous. So all of that has to go. Yeah, and then I think you'll start to see people taking risks. SMEs take risks. And remember SMEs. Whilst we talk about the multinationals and all the rest of the pharmaceuticals, Gray. But they're not the ones that actually make up the bulk of the economy. It's the people who took a risk. People like me who took out 20 grand loan, set up a business. You know, that's a lot of money for people.

People remortgage their houses to put it in their business.

So therefore they need to feel that actually the state isn't against them, which they currently do. So that is how you rebuild the economy, by saying, we are on your side, we will give you tax breaks and we will unveil all of this closer to the election. So we will come back. So in terms of preparing for government, the other thing we're doing is we have a website where people can give us ideas. So from the military, for example, farmers or whatever it is, and they submit ideas. This goes to Danny and to Zia.

And have you got the URL for that?

Yeah, Preparing for government dot com.

Oh, wow. I like.

I like that. Thank you. So that all goes there.

Very confident. Our reform.

You have to be, don't you? Yeah, of course. Yeah. But I mean, that's the other thing you see, which is that there are. We've got some. We have some brilliant people in this organization.

Yeah.

Some brilliant people who've got amazing experience. Every single one of us have. Has had real life experience. Experience. That's the difference. We didn't do PPE at Oxford and Cambridge. None of us did. You know, I'm a medic. Rich has run businesses. You know, Nigel was a trader. He's been in politics for. For as long as he, you know, we know. And Zia, you know, he's a tech bro, wasn't he? So everyone has come from a very different background and that's why we're different. Yeah.

So there was a couple of things that quite upset me.

Oh, I'm sorry.

You know, it wasn't you personally. And by the way, thank you. Thank you for doing this.

Oh, thank you.

So, you know, I've made known secret that I support reform.

Oh, I didn't know. But thank you.

I do and become friends with Nigel since I originally interviewed him on the podcast. Just so people know my biases and they can say what they want, but the first thing that saddened me was when Elon Musk kind of turned his back on Nigel and sort of like, Elon's very powerful, obviously, and obviously he's using his playground of X. And I felt like they were quite tight. And I really like the idea that Elon might be in some way involved in backing reform. And then out of nowhere, just, I think with the Tommy Robinson thing, which, let's be honest, Elon's not here, he doesn't really know a lot going on. Obviously, you're in the party. Did that affect you in any way? Were you a bit saddened by Elon?

I was very sad, actually, yeah. I mean. I mean, because obviously isn't as a startup company, you having big backers is great, isn't it?

And you've got to admire someone like Elon for his business.

Well, I mean, he's. He's a complete maverick and genius all at the same time, isn't he? And the fact is that the fact he has got teslas through to SpaceX, through to whatever else. Of course, it'd be much better to have him on board. I don't know what went on with the two of them, you know, did they have, you know, a couple of. Sherry's too much.

I can't imagine Elon drinks sherry.

It's a. You euphemism.

Yes, of course.

But, you know, Nigel, after a couple of gins, may have said something. He probably said something bad, you know, I don't know. I don't know. But I think when. Am I deeply worried about that? No, because I think he'll come back.

Elon. Well, when he. When he realizes that no one else is really a serious contender.

Well, I. Yes, I do think that. And obviously there are other players where people have said, oh, these particular people are really good, and wait till they form their own parties and it won't happen.

So that's the second thing I want to raise. I was disappointed when Rupert with the Rupert Lowe thing, because I like him and I think he's brave in what he says and he talks a lot of common sense and could you give us some insight into what happened there? Because surely reform were more powerful with him.

So. I serve with Rupert in the European Parliament. I know him very well. He's very bright. You're right. He says a lot of things that I totally agree with. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but obviously he and Nigel.

Are you giving me politically correct.

I don't. I don't honestly know. I don't honestly know the answer, but he and Nigel clearly fell out. But you can only have one leader.

Do you think Rupert wanted to be the leader then? He.

He sees things in his way. He's very dogmatic about that. And I think he thinks things are his way or the wrong way. And I might argue the same about Nigel in some ways. So you've got two very strong characters, but there can be one leader. Is the party stronger with people who can.

With Rupert?

Well, is the party stronger where you can have robust discussions and everything? Of course it is.

Yeah. Maybe I'm just, like, naive and nostalgic. Love Elon to come back into the fold.

Love Rupert to come back into the fold.

It, like, gives him. Surely these things give reform more of a chance. But you said this is the one chance in history maybe, for this to happen.

But I've got two options, right? I can sit there stirring my tea, thinking wistfully about Rupert.

No, you know what, you can build some bridges, can't you? You can schmooze them up.

Oh, I'm still in talking terms with.

Rupert and with others, but at the same tap, Elona.

But the same time. At the same time, I've got 400 branches to sort out and run and do action days and get the membership up and do all of that stuff and the media and all the rest of it. So, fine, all that can happen in the periphery. But I think, you know, Rupert talked about starting his own party. It's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen. And I know that because. Not because I don't believe he's capable, but also, it's just too expensive.

Yeah, yeah.

It's just it eats money to do that. I mean, look at that. We were a tiny operation and look, now we're on in this rather splendid, shiny building and we are taking on more staff all the time. So we're growing all the time. And you mentioned donations at the beginning. Without donations. And actually, the. The most important donations are the £10 and £20 that come from members, because.

That shows my T shirt. I've got my football top.

Good. Oh, you bought. I've got my blue one. Just the blue one.

You had a picture in the black one.

You need to upgrade. We've still got a few left.

Oh, yeah. They're limited edition, are they?

They are, yes, they are. I think you should buy one before they all go. No.

You sure? You've got. In sales.

I'll give you a chairman's discount.

All right.

Of £1 good, I'm glad you got that.

So.

A lot of this stuff is. There's. I don't know that I think as things. We're coming through what has been quite a turbulent time, but it's clear that we're doing the galley and I think Danny called it, didn't he, the pirate ship. The pirate ship Reform, which I thought was quite a good analogy, that we, you know, have been battling weather and we got our cutlasses out. We're starting to turn into a galleon. That's how I see it. And so those people that want to be on board are welcome to be.

On board and that's that.

That. Well, I think it is that, isn't it? And Elon come back.

Surely you could schmooze him up.

Well, when I next see him, you know. Yeah, when we're having a gin. Yeah, I'll let him know. Yeah.

Okay, so final question, then. And then we have a board meeting. The state of London and how's Sadiq Khan done? What is the state of London?

He needs to be deported. He's really. No, he's done a terrible job. Look, I. I've been in London since I was 18. It was a great city. It is a terrible place to live. He has destroyed London and actually probably the most iconic image of that is seeing tube trains with graffiti on them. Haven't seen that since I was 18.

Yeah.

And the one way systems and just. I watched him in the Assembly. Alex Wilson, who's there for us, he's so obnoxious. He will not be held to account. And actually the mayor should be there for the whole of London and I don't get the sense he is. And we need a new mayor desperately and I think we should have a reform UK mayor.

Who would it be then?

Well, Alex Wilson would be quite up there, wouldn't he? He's doing a great job in the London Assembly. You never know, we might have a few. Few up our sleeve, people who might want to go into it.

Well, that. Middleton's having a good go, isn't he? Well, I say having a good go. It's early days, but.

Well, it's early days for lots of people, so that's a very political answer.

Would you rate his chances?

I don't know enough about him, to be honest. But what I do think you want someone who loves the city, who can see what the city can bring. I mean, let's just look at, for example, the way they've cut down the nightlife in this great city, for example, the regulations, the drinking laws, all the rest of it, all the rest of it, they've just made life very difficult to live in London. The congestion charge, the low emission zone, all of that, the idea, the congestion charge, by the way, electric vehicles were free. Not from next year, they're not. So why switch there? Yeah, so it was never about that, was it? It's about revenue. But Sadiq Khan doesn't care. Sadiq Khan cares about Sadiq Khan.

So if people. Where should people go if they want to look into the reform policies?

Okay, so. So you can go to reformparty.uk yeah. And that has our website. And also there'll be a part of that which will be able to show you the direction of travel, of policies, and as and when those policies are unveiled, failed, and we're going to start rolling those out from the beginning of January next year, then they'll all be there.

And then where are you most like? Where do you share a lot of your expression online? Where do you mostly use.

I do a lot on Twitter. Dr. David Bull, Dr. Dave. And I'm across all socials @DrDavidBull.

Right. And then mostly having a rant on.

X. I like to have constructive conversations on X, particularly after a last cocktail.

Is it possible to have a constructive conversation on X?

No, no, absolutely not. No, but. And it's changed dramatically. And then I write for those people who want to join the party, become a member. I then write to the members every Sunday.

Yes, I receive that.

Oh, good. And so that takes some considerable time, as you know.

Yeah.

But what I'm trying to do is involve everyone and say that they understand the journey that we're doing. And actually, the lovely thing is people say to me all the time, you must be very tired. Just. Okay, well, I am, because of course, that's all I'm doing is traveling around the country. But, you know, it's great to meet.

People actually, just quickly, because probably, Nick, one more minute day in the life of the chairman of the Reform Party, the busy man. What do you do from 6am when.

You start, get up, read the papers like crazy? I have this kind of exam fair every morning. This goes back to being a medic, where I actually have to see what's in the newspapers and then assimilate the. The information of the day. Then I'll do calls with the team, then there may be media bids that come in, depending on the days. I'm currently on Monday and Tuesday, I'm here in the office, then I'm on the road I travel around the country and give speeches and lunches and fundraisers and all the rest of it. And then the other sadness for me is I've been in hotels for nearly 12 months. Over 12 months now. There is only. It sounds very glamorous, but they're not very glamorous. And so at the end of the day, pack up my suitcase and head to the next destination.

And I know you have to do that now, David, I've really appreciated this.

Not at all. It's been great fun. Thank you.

Thank you.

Sam.