The Watch Guru: Making Millions Collecting Watches & The Truth on Rolex - Tom Bolt

This is the game changer.

That's a million pound watch.

Look here, don't drop it, okay?

Okay. Ready? Yeah. I want to know why they call you the watch guru.

I love watches. This bad boy here, the only one that's ever been made. Wow. Patek are a different level of watch.

So what about an underrated watch? Hublot?

No, that's junk.

Is crime for watches as bad as you've ever seen it?

It's not watches, it's just the world we live in in London. A lot of it is a game.

They're making you buy three or four or five window watches and cars, and then you don't even get the one you want.

It is repugnant.

Which watch have you bought that's made the most money?

You're asking me questions that you already know the answer to.

What do you really think about Rolex? Is crime for watches as bad as you've ever seen it in London right now?

I'm always slightly skeptical about, you know, sort of like fake news, Right. However, I will say this, that it has stopped a lot of clients of mine now from buying watches that do look flashy. A lot. I've lost a lot of sales, a lot of money because people are now just. They say, where am I going to wear it?

But is that not good for you as a collector of this kind of stuff? Do they not want to buy something more understated?

What, so you mean the flashy stuff is cheaper?

I mean, if you're losing these clients who don't want to wear flashy stuff anymore. Because I remember the day where I said to myself, I'll wear an Amiga Swatch in London and I'll put the Nautilus in my laptop bag and I'll bring it out afterwards. And it's like, why am I fucking buying watches then?

Like, listen, I say to my clients, right, if you're not going to wear it, buy. Buy something that other people can enjoy rather than just a dark secure box, a lock on it. Do what I mean. So, yeah, no, absolutely.

But can you enjoy these anymore then? If you can't wear them in London, sure you can.

You can enjoy them, but you just got to be in London. Would I? Yes, I guess. But you got to be discreet. So the amount of times I sit sort of in a cafe somewhere and I see a guy sitting next to me, often foreigners, wearing a, you know, like a royal oak whatever, sitting outside in a T shirt, and I quite say to them, excuse me, but you would just don't wear that they're like, why not? Because you're a target, you know, so, you know, yes, you can wear this stuff, but you just got to be kind of aware of what you're wearing. It's like, you know, can a lady wear a nice diamond ring, her engagement ring in town? Not really. Turn it to the inside. It's not watches. It's just the world we live in in London. Yeah, but I think the day that we go, right, you know what, we're all going to wear flip flops and we're going to sort of, you know, just sort of not wear anything of any value. I mean, where we live in, you know what, what William for. Yeah, I just think you've got to be aware.

Yeah, I agree. And you know, can I quickly suggest you.

Okay. I made, I made a. A post right, on my Instagram about a woman that had been to sexy. The worst place to go with expensive.

Watch, by the way, that's Mayfair, isn't.

It sexy Just here, honestly, like, I mean, dealer sort of compatriots of mine going, don't talk about this stuff, you're gonna kill the business. But it is what it is, right? And I made this post, right, and it had a very pretty lady, blonde, with a huge black eye, and she'd be beaten up and they just attacked her and Mulda for a watch. And I made a post that said, you know, please don't be wearing expensive watches to posh restaurants because this is how it works, right? Oh my God. The whatsapps. The text I got from dealers saying, why are you doing this big? Because.

So are you saying it was her fault? Really?

Not at all.

No.

Can't be someone's fault for wearing a nice watch. What I'm saying is.

But we all now know, don't we?

She knows now, but you know, but unfortunately, if you spread awareness about it, people can just be discreet.

Yeah, I think it's good to be.

Wear your watch on the inside. Or, or. These people are trained, right? They are trained. Royal oak looks like this, Nautilus looks like this, Day turn looks like this, etc.

So surely you don't just wear the obvious. Well, that's red flag.

Look at me. Well, that's where I do. Okay. Because I try to guide people into the more discerning types of stuff that.

That you can wear in London.

Spotters, if you want to call them that. Don't really know what they're looking at, you know.

Well, look, we've got a massive collection here and I want to talk about that a bit later. But why don't you now pick one that you'd wear in the center of Mayfair in the dead of night on your own when you can see people lurking that wouldn't get recognized. But it's a lovely watch.

Okay, I'm gonna pick that.

I'm picking that.

No, you can't. That's the one I was gonna say. Okay, so take that, that. So this is a 1920s AP full calendar.

I just love that watch.

Elegant.

I agree that and it's tiny.

What's the size of it in the sort of twenties, you know. Well, if you include the articulated lugs in the 30s millimeters. But you know it's saying that in.

The 20s millimeters actual watch. So it's so small no one's going to be able to know what it is. They could confuse it for a 50 pound Timex.

And that's what I love about it. Oh, you know what's quite interesting and.

That'S how much you say that three.

Now around sort of 350ish.

Okay.

I'd say what's quite interesting actually is this here on a bump, the mic.

Yeah.

This is a 1950s stainless steel Patek Philippe chronograph with a huge amount of history. It's like the Paul Newman equivalent of a. Of a Patek. Yeah. In that it's stainless steel which makes it rare and more valuable. It has the rarest dial configuration being Breguet numbers. Etc. It's probably worth three quarters of a million quid. That looks like a market watch that, you know, for like 100 quid. So you know. Yeah.

And what would that Patek. That's three quarters of a million quid. What would that have been new if you were old enough to buy it?

I don't honestly know the answer to that question. I would have said. Late hundreds.

In the late hundreds of pounds.

Yeah, yeah.

And the AP.

Listen, I bought this watch, yeah, okay. In 1989 at Top Money for £17,000. And I wouldn't take a penny less than 750 for it today.

Yeah. Wow. Okay, so we're going to come back to all the, all these amazing watches. Is a Rolex better than saving your money in the bank?

I think you have to be more specific. I mean, are we talking about. I mean there's Rolex and there's Rolex. Right.

So answering. I mean this is your answer.

So. All right, I like it.

There's Rolex and there's Rolex. Yeah.

So, okay, so there's Rolex and there's Rolex. Right. Let's take the most basic undesirable Rolex, which is a Cellini. Okay. And I was thinking about this earlier. I was thinking, okay, so house prices as. House prices as opposed to watch prices. If you bought the most undesirable Rolex in, let's say, the early noughties, and an average house in the early noughties, the most undesirable Rolex has gone up way more than the most even undesirable house way more. Wow.

So a Rolex is better than a savings account because even the best savings account over history has been beaten by inflation. So it's gone down in value.

There you go.

Even if you bought it out of the shop window brand new.

Hang on, let me think about that. Probably not. No. I'm sorry. Great, Great spot.

Yeah.

I'm talking about real.

Listen, you're talking about buying it at.

Glossy magazines, advertisements, shop windows, Knightsbridge, whatever. Mean nothing to me.

No, it's a gutter. You'd never.

Never. About street values, dealer. Street, real values.

Yeah.

Okay, that's. That's where I'm coming from. Sorry, I should have clarified.

No, no, no. Well, you have now. Wow. All right, then. So you said there's Rolex and there's Rolex. So it sounds like there's some energy behind that. What do you mean by that phrase?

Let's go to the market value of a day date, which is that kind of flagship watch. Right. A day date.

From.

And the sort of street price for day date in. Let's go look at 1988. Right. If you bought the day date in 1988.

Steel.

Gold. They're all gold. Gold. Day three. The gold that is only made in precious metal. Yeah. Actually, I can just hear the kind of like, you know, the anoraks going. Actually, they did make three in stainless steel, but they've never actually been truly corroborated. So we'll take that with a pinch of salt. But on the whole, they're all gold. Okay. Or platinum. And in the late 80s, I think they were. They were like in between two and three grand. Yeah. In the late 80s. Okay. A gold day date. Roundabout. That kind of figure. Roundabout, street. Yeah. Kind of like, you know, prices I'm talking about. And that watch there is a Daytona. Okay. This watch here. This one. Yeah. So this watch here. Okay. Is a Rolex Daytona. Right.

I spotted that one quite early, didn't I?

You've got a good eye.

Yeah.

I'm glad you're not in my game. This is a 1988 Rolex Daytona. This is the game changer. This watch here is responsible for the whole collectible market today because it is the first premium wristwatch in history. Okay? So in 1988, this watch came out and it just changed the watch industry. Because these were £1,550 I have to buy them for. They were new. I send people, I have to scour the world looking for these things. Well, actually, a bit later, sort of 1989, I came into it, right, and they were £1,550, and straight away they were worth three and a half thousand quid. I could sell them to a dealer straight away with three and a half thousand quid. Now, I was working in a, in a warehouse at the time, doing night shifts, driving a forklift, cleaning houses, stacking videos for, for blockbusters at night shifts and stuff. I mean, so when I go into. I was like, well, that seems like easy money. Now, this watch here, so the day date that I was talking about before, sorry to kind of get a bit twisted up here, but the day that I was talking about before, let's say it was sort of mid twos, early threes today is, let's say tens to 12s. All right, better than a house as far as, you know, appreciation. This was 1,000, 550 quid. But let's take the street market value, three and a half thousand quid. This today is a hundred thousand quid.

Because that's a special Daytona because it's.

Just the first series of the Zenith Daytona. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a Daytona there for, you know, I turned down 3 million from Ambani for that one there. The Emerald.

Turned down 3 million quid for that.

For the emerald.

One gold Daytona. Can I touch it? You turned down 3 million quid?

Don't drop it, please.

Okay.

And you know what?

I should have taken the money.

Well, you know what? Funny you say that. I asked three and a half for it, right? And my thought process was, do you know what? I can't just drop my trousers for half a million. Yeah. Otherwise, because the guy was already killing me on prices as it was, right? So I thought, you know what? I, I'm gonna pass on that.

Yeah.

And, but hang on. So. But, and I kind of thought, you know what? Anyway, I didn't. And now the world record price for a Rolex without celebrity ownership history, the world record price is for a Zenith Daytona that went for five and a half million. That's not as rare as that. So guess What I was right.

And how much would that have been new?

Oh, I don't know because it would have been a sort of special.

Okay, fine. So it wouldn't have ever been sort of sold on the open market.

No, but it's a1of1 what we can say. Yeah, well it's the only one that we know of. Right, sorry, I should clarify that. It's the only emerald 16568 that we know of that has been confirmed by Rolex.

Wow. So again, let's keep going on this conversation but I want to get to this. There's Rolex and then there's Rolex.

Well, you've just done it, I mean.

Right, so that, so is that Rolex or Rolex? So there's Rolex or this Rolex? Because I think people often get confused. I think I want to talk about the brand because I think you got some strong opinions, as have I. But the Daytona was my gateway into buying nice watches.

Was most people's.

Yeah. And that I believe that is a great watch.

Okay.

And we, we, we can discuss not. I'm not saying it's the best made watch, but it's the icon. Yeah, it's the icon. It's, it's the, the gateway in for sure.

But it only became the icon.

Well, weren't they unbeatable at first? They were trying to give, they were giving away free with other purchases I was told.

Okay, I'm not sure about that.

Okay, maybe I saw an ex.

But. Oh but, but they were certainly perhaps the only watch that a shopkeeper at the time, a Rolex agent would literally volunteer you a discount.

Yeah.

Pre the Zenith or the manual ones. Because you got to remember the manually one Daytonas, you know, came out in the sort of 60s. Yeah. And they ran until sort of like 88. Right. Well by that time I mean lower end brands like Breitling, Hoya, they were all making self winding automatic chronographs by then. And so it was like, well, if they're doing it, I mean how come Rolex can't we understand it if Patek can't? Because Patek are a different level of watch. They are the sort of the, the kind of, if you want to say the Ferrari of kind of watches. So it's acceptable for a, for a Patek to have a manually round movement because you can argue that, well, a true timekeeper can't have a big oscillating weight swinging around the back of it. So the finishing of their movement and the sort of quality of their Movements and they're discerning the nature as far as timekeeping means that it must be manual. So we can get with that. But on a mass produced watch, which Rolex are. It was unacceptable that they were still doing a manual watch. Right. So up until that time there were nothing.

Yeah.

But then when the zenith movement came out and they started going for premiums, suddenly people started to get more discerning, actually. Those manually wound ones that never. Those manually wound ones that never sold. Now the fact that they never sold makes them quite rare. You know what, we like them. Boom.

Okay, well, we're going to come back to that as well then. But I want to know why they call you the watch guru. I did, yeah. That is so honest. You had such. I set you up for a great story.

I don't need to bullshit.

Okay?

So I mean, I didn't.

What's your story?

I didn't say I wasn't a fucking guru.

Yeah.

I just said how come. My story. My story is that.

Listen, because I knew you as the watch guru before I knew your name.

Okay.

Way before. All right.

Yeah, yeah, well, okay, so I got into watches, as we now know, in sort of like, you know, the late 80s. And I think that a lot of it is circumstance. Listen, do I know quite a lot about watches? Yeah. Some might call me a jack of all trades, master of none. Because I know.

Because you have breadth of knowledge.

Exactly. But then you could say. But hang on a second, do you know what hands were on that particular watch? That someone might concentrate on submariners and know more about the world. 1953 submarines than me. Hands up.

Yeah, but you're not a mastermind. Oh, yeah. It's not you.

Okay. You know, is it original? Is it not stolen? Good, good. But I think circumstances is behind a lot of it in that I got into the watch business at a time when you could afford to learn. Right. Like, you know, I've got a. I've got a Rolex Oyster Moon phase, right. In stainless steel. It's worth. Well, I'm asking a million and a half for him. But I bought that watch in gonna say the early 90s for like 17 grand. 16 grand.

Okay, so when you say you could afford to learn, you mean what it.

Means that back then. Right.

Okay, so then it's not millions of pounds for.

No, it still would have hurt a lot.

Yeah.

I wasn't as wealthy as I am today. Yeah.

And inflation.

But it wouldn't have killed me. Yeah. Today. But yeah. No story. But what I mean is that for most people to get into watches. Okay. For most people that get into watches to try and learn about something, get it wrong. And that something is a million and a half quid that toast.

Yeah, but surely you can work up to that and trade up to that.

Sure, but what I mean though is that like I say, this whole watch guru thing comes from sort of like right timing, right place. I could learn about watches but then not lose my shirt.

Yeah.

Whereas now you don't. I mean, so it's a closed market because people are too scared. You know, people don't even know how to use an eyeglass today. And because there was no Internet back then, the only way you, you learn, which I believe is how you. The only way you can really learn about watches, but about real watches, not about, you know, you know, the sort of the fodder of today. You know, I call a fodder. I mean, like what's fodder? Like the sort of the hublot. No, that's junk.

That's even worse than fodder.

That's like.

Yeah, we'll come back to that. Yeah, I want to talk to you about that.

Okay.

Yeah.

You know, a middle range 330 movement 5711 today. Okay. The reason I call that Patek Philippe.

Yeah.

The reason I call that. Yeah, yeah. The reason I call that junk and I. Obviously it's not junk, but in the grand scheme of things is this. Look, a 5711 today is going to cost you what, 75, 80 grand. Right. It's a copy of the 3700, the original Gerald Gentle Nautilus from the 1970s. But you can buy a steel original 1970s Nautilus of which they made a fraction of the amount. That's thinner than the 5711, which is a pretender because it's got a case back on it anyway. With a Nautilus. Never had a case back. And yet they're only 90 to 100. Why are you buying a mass produced repro for 80 grand when you can buy the original for that?

I think people don't know. Sure. Because they're like, oh, nautilus. I mean, sure.

And remember. Yeah, it's much easier and there's a much quicker feel good in. Oh, I've got the one, the 5711. Right. If someone then says she. But did you know this? Suddenly your world wobbles. It's like, wait a minute, hang on, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I built my house on. You mean there's something else There's a whole other world. No, no, no. I don't want that world. So do you know. I mean, it's fear.

Yeah.

So fear is what stops people from learning. And also humility. You have to be humble to learn. Right. And a lot of people don't want to. Don't want the feelings associated with first accepting, you know what, perhaps I don't know. And second of like, okay, I'm going to learn. It's a big. It's a big. It's a big variable. Right?

Yeah. A lot of people who watch my show are into watches, but they don't have the knowledge you do. So definitely be good to come back to sort of, you know, some, some staple things you can do, sort of beginner level, whether it's price or type of watch, because I know these are all really special, but this Nautilus, like, you showed me this and I was.

Like, wow, you're smitten.

That looks.

So you've just gone to the strip club.

I know.

And you know, she's what bag? You've gone.

I know. Not only that I'm telling my friends that she loves me, but she does.

She just told you she died.

I love this watch, so I'm going to pass it back to you.

Okay.

And I'm. I am gentle with these things. So tell us about this Nautilus.

Okay, so this is a 3700 that I just told you about. And it's the original watch that Gerald Genta designed. Gerald Gentler, the sort of the now sadly late kind of master watch designer who I'm sure. You know, I know you know, she just told me that.

Yeah.

Designed the Royal Oak, then designed the Nautilus and then the IWC engineer and a lot of people don't know, but also the. I always feel like Michael Kma was. A lot of people don't notice, but the, the Pasture as well for Cartier, which. Another great watch. But what, what Patek did, which is the same thing that, that, um, that Royal Oak did, is they want to create a wafer thin sports watch. Because Rolex were like gaining momentum.

Right.

The Submariner, the Sea Dweller, they were killing it with these watches. Right. Big chunky sports watches. And they thought, how can we be different? We're gonna keep it slim. Now, the first Nautilus, unlike the 5711, never had a case back to keep the thinness down.

Yeah.

So the first series Nautilus is the, the 3700 never had a caseback. So they're very Thin. And they only made. They predominantly made them in. In ste. Then yellow gold, then stealing gold, rarer than gold or steel. And then they made 20 in white gold and a few in platinum. The reason this bad boy here is rare is not just because it's white gold. It's because it's the only one that's ever been made with an albino. My nickname, also my nickname for the albino Daytonas. I made up many nicknames that are used today. You know, the Beast for AP John Player Special. I put my feather out my hat now and. Yeah. And it's the only one that's ever been made with it with a silver dial and it's in virtually new world stock condition. It's just the holy grail of kind of sports watches, really. And I've had this for a long time. I got ill a while ago. I got ill due to my kind of skullduggery as a child. Panicked a bit and thought, shit, you know what? I don't want to expand to get everything. So I gave it to my son on his 18th birthday. And I wanted to show you today for the. For the. For this kind of podcast. You know what you said to me, the cheeky. He went, I don't know, dad. How do I know you're going to take care of it? Like, hold up. My son. Hang on. I mean, he's. All right, well, I'll bring it to you and I'll sit with it and I'll. So, yeah, so that's the Albino 3700. Yeah. And that's probably about. I'd say it's the most special. I think you'd have to really argue some to not say that that's not the most important nautilus that's ever been made. Yeah.

Right. And rough value of that.

So I'm scared of answering that in case my son watches this.

Yeah.

And he goes straight off down the auction house.

Didn't you say you'll disown him if he sells?

I did. You know, he might. You might go, you might live for 20 years that I'm old. I don't know, bud. Honestly, I don't know that if. If I still owned it, if I still owned would. I mean, it would have to start with a three if, you know, a three watt mil.

Wow.

Well, yeah, I mean, it's the most important nautilus that's been made. Right. And they make modern gem set ones that are like that sort of price now. It's like, why, you know, let's Say.

Someone'S watching this and they don't like the banks and inflation is getting up and they've already put some money in gold and silver because that's gone up and they're thinking about, do you know what? I would quite like to start investing in watches. What are a good two or three watches to start investing at a reasonable money level?

How risk, how risk averse you want to be? It's all about risk and reward, right? Same stocks and shares about anything, right? It's risk and reward. Okay? Do you want to buy something expensive or relatively expensive whereby the truth hasn't yet been realized and hope will be pretty sure that at some point it will, and when it does, it's going to go monster, or do you want to just buy safe and, you know, do it kind of.

Let's answer both. So buy safe.

I love watches, man. And in fact, my heart goes out more to something like this over here, which is a. A Breitling Chronomat. Right? Now that's a Breitling Chronomat from let's say the sort of, you know, 60s, whatever. It's half the price. It's basically, it's like a three and a half grand watch in like new all stock condition with box and papers. Right. Well, a Breitling Chronomat or a Breitling Navitime today, which is this is more similar to in Breitling than a monster, I think is like seven and a half thousand quid. So I mean, how can it be that this in your stock condition is that sort of money? That's the sort of stuff that I say, man, because the most basic level, just compare it to the current one. The current one is relative garbage compared to the artisan way in which this was made. So why wouldn't you buy that?

And they make a load more, I.

Guess, you know, so it's just that sort of thing. It's like, you know, if you want to be.

So that's a good start. So that's a what, a Breitling.

That's a rattling early Chronomat.

Okay, and then what else?

I would say this kind of stuff, I would say that, you know, the early Rolex bubble backs, I mean, that's why these three watches here, this oyster, this bubble back and this prince is why Rolex are what they are today. Right? So they did these two here in the 1920s. First waterproof watch, although there wasn't really.

But what. But they owned that, the oyster.

They kind of, you know. Yeah, let's Give them that accolade. Okay. The first wrist chronometer. The first chronometer rated movement small enough to be worn the wrist was that. Kudos. They did that. And the first automatic watch here, well, they didn't really invent the automatic watch either because they kind of nicked it off John Harwood and then did a deal with them later, apparently.

Right.

You know, so. But we know Rolex has been the first automatic watch, so maybe I should. Yeah, maybe I might get sued at the ass for that. Not nicked. It took inspiration from John Harwood. What's interesting about this watch here? I'll come back to your question. What's interesting about this watch here, Right, Because. Yeah.

Yeah.

Is this the first automatic watch that had a rotor, that one round that winds the watch? Right. They're still used today by all the brands. Well, because they patented it. Nobody else could do this.

Wow.

And so this watch here, which is a particularly special one, is the 2526, which is the first Patek Philippe, the first Patek Philippe automatic watch ever in history. And the movement is a work of art.

And how much is the Patek?

Okay, so a 2526 today, a standard yellow gold 2526 will cost you from 35 grand up to a few hundred grand. This is a pink dial version. It's very rare. It's a pink gold watch. So this is more like kind of, you know, 150 grand.

Yeah. Okay. And then these three Rolexes you've got in your hand because I think they're affordable money, aren't they?

We're back to the. Exactly. So this is, I would say a top 1% bubble back condition rarity. It's got a Thunderbird bezel. It's incredible condition. Still like 20 grand.

Yeah.

The Oyster. Now here's one for you. 1920s Rolex Oyster, the first waterproof watch in history. Yeah. 100 years old. What do you reckon that is?

25 grand.

Okay, let's go with three and a half grand, maybe four on that. No, listen, the first.

That's nearly 100 years old, that watch.

The first wrist chronometer ever made in history. The first wrist chronometer ever made in history. Right. Which is this. Striped prints. Okay.

Yeah.

Although let me say again, the first wrist chronometer ever made in history, which is the Rolex Prince. This is the top version of it and it's called a striped Prince, where it has striped gold in the top. It's like the kind of the GTO version of your Ferrari, if you like. And yet that is like 15 grand, 14 grand. And the standard prints and steel. I've got a beautiful silver one now, original dial everything, six grand.

A silver one or a steel one? Silver. They don't make many watches in silver.

No, they didn't, but they did in the early days. It was before steel or stay bright was used.

And you could probably wear them in London and no one would know any different. That oyster. People are going to think that's.

But also. But see. Exactly. And it comes down to that thing, Rob, right? It's like, look, who are you wearing your watch for?

Yeah.

Are you wearing it so that people know, listen, I'm the daddy. I got the 5,000, 711. Yawn.

You've even got the lingo there. I'm the daddy.

Or are you wearing the watch for you? Because, you know.

Yeah, but surely, though, this is like the art question. Are you paying for you or you paying for someone looking at the art? I don't, but I'm gonna. This is the first time I'm going to challenge you since I've met you. We've gone great, but I'm going to.

Challenge you so far.

Yeah, exactly. I don't believe anyone wears a watch just for them and not for anyone else, including you.

Okay.

Because, like, I'll give you an example, you know, some people who say, oh, well, life's not about having possessions, it's about having no possessions. They're still bragging about the fact that they don't want any possessions.

Well, you know, it's a similar. Okay, do you see what I mean?

So you still want to be noticed but for knowing your watches.

So I wrote. There was an article once, right, written about me called the King of Bling. Right. And I kind of counteracted this article. It was quite a good article, but about the fact that we've gone through various stages throughout watch collecting, right. And we've had the sort of the stealth mode, right, which is when everyone wore stainless steel. And the kind of. The trick was if you were really in the. In the horological condition, if you really were like part of the top 1% collectors and you knew your stuff, the aim was to sort of wear something that was actually worth a fortune, but it looked like nothing on your wrist.

Right.

And yet at the dinner table, everybody used to wear them, but they couldn't wait.

Yeah.

Awesome about that and what it was worth.

This is my point.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Have you seen.

I agree with you on the whole.

Christian Bale film with the business Card.

Exactly.

It's that, isn't it? American Psycho.

Yes, but. But whilst I agree with your sentiment.

Yeah, you just think that's a little bit more elevated class.

That ain't me.

That's not you.

No, no, what I'm saying is that for me, I genuinely wear them. For me. Look, I've got nice cars, right?

Yeah.

Okay? I've got all kinds of sexy cars. However, I drive from home. I turn off the motorway, I drive straight into my underground car park, and that's it. I mean, if I drive my car down the street, okay, and there's a dude waiting at the bus stop to take the night bus home, I'm going to purposefully drive past him, before him, because I don't want the negative feelings of, like, feeling like I can't getting out of this thing that, you know, is worth more than probably he'll ever earn or. Or make him feel bad for the comparison thing, etc. I just want to feel good myself. And I genuinely drive this shit because of the way it makes me feel and not because the way I'm perceived.

Okay?

Hey, look, most people have seen me getting out my car. Honestly, the amount of times people go, oh, no big issues today, mate. Well, you come to wash the car. No, seriously. Do you know what I mean?

Really?

They say that because look at the way I'm fucking dressed, man. Like a tramp. I know that. That's all right. Do you know when I used to buy watches. Listen, right, When I used to buy.

I'm listening.

So you look like fucking Don Johnson compared to me, you know, so. So. So I've even got slight sort of beard, paranoia. Like, you know, yours is quite neat. And I'm thinking I look like you.

Had some chicken wings in it.

I bet you weren't gonna tell me. Like a homeless person. Anyway, so I used to get called in to see certain shops, right, that were taking in watches and part exchange reading, sometimes auction houses and stuff, right? And there was this joke that went around on text, right, look, if Tom Bolt comes, right, this is like back in the sort of late 90s, whatever, yeah, they say, just say to him, no, no, no, no big issues today, please. That was their sort of running joke.

All right, I'm going to stay on this lane, okay? Because I have a. I have some cars as well. And one of them that people love the most is I have an Aventador. And they love that the most. And it gives so much pleasure to a lot of people, especially when you drive, you know, past the School and all the kids are and all that. And I don't actually get that much negativity in my cars. Mostly it just. Yeah, I remember when I, I remember when I saw like Ferraris when I was younger in my town. I was like, yeah, that's going to be me one day. Is there not that element as well? Could it not be inspiring, you know.

Oh no, hang on, wait, wait. Okay. Yeah. By the way, I'm not saying that I've never been the guy that would drive sleigh down the road and give my feather a quick few rips. Do you know what I mean?

Of course, yeah.

Do you know what I mean? I was young, you know what I mean? But I think as, I think also as my recovery goes on, I work a kind of 12 step program in like AA and N A and stuff and which kind of teaches you to sort of look at yourself a lot.

Yeah.

And I think that now I have a lot of empathy for my fellow kind of mankind, if you like human beings. And so I'm constantly thinking, how would I feel? It's like business for me. I, I don't sit down and think, right, what can I get away with saying this watch for? I think, why would I not buy this watch if I was the guy sitting across the table that, I mean, because that's how good business is, right? You think about, well, where, why wouldn't I buy this watch if the tables were turned here and I was pitching myself so with the, with the whole, with the whole car thing whilst I drive it and stuff. Okay. And um, and I try to sort of like be as ambiguous as I can be in it. I mentioned earlier to you that I have this charity, right, called Steps to Recovery that integrates addicts from. I say I have this. I started this charity called Steps for Code that integrates addicts from prison and society and gives them free rehab. And I go there sometimes and I'll take all the kind of clients out for a kind of meeting or we go out for a meal or something. And I fucking love coming in the back of the, of the kind of roller or the. Whatever it is. I mean, sure, but that's different to.

Is that a 599 I saw you've got, is it 599?

Yeah, I've got a. Yeah, I've got a, a 599 GTO.

And I knew it wasn't just the.

599 and my baby and aperta, which is the sort of convertible of the kind of gto yeah, right.

Oh, so you've got two of them.

Yeah.

You, you like that model, do you?

I thought you're gonna start ripping me now. No, about, I'm not judgy, I'm not a judgy guy. I, I, I like this them. I like the 599 because I think it's aesthetically very pleasing. It's beautiful.

Yeah, but you like GTOs then obviously cars.

No, I'm just a spoiled cunt. Okay, so basically I, I always wanted, I, I saw once that Chris Evans had this incredible Ferrari and I'd never been into feathers and I saw this car and I thought, wow, what is that? I did some research. It's called a599 GTO and I just from that day focused, right. One day, if ever I can afford that, I'm gonna buy it. And on my 25 year cleaning anniversary, sober present to myself, I bought it off of Chris.

Oh wow.

Because I said to myself, you know what, I'm just not gonna have it. Like I said, I'm a sport clown. I'm not going to have a normal 599. I'm going to wait until I can buy the one I want. And I kind of, I got, that's nice. I got lucky and I did. Well, it is a bit, that's like, you know, it is a bit, I.

Think you're being a bit humble.

I don't, I think it's like I'm not gonna have one unless I can have the one I want. It's a little bit like that.

Yeah. But then you work hard for it and then you celebrate 25 years being clean, buying it.

Okay, all right, but do you think that, okay, but do you, do you genuinely think that I'm not trying to turn the tables here and do you.

Can if you want.

You want your show, but your show. Do you think that success is a meritocracy? Do you think that if you work.

Hard, you know, you said there's Rolex and there's Rolex. Yeah, I think with success, yeah, there's first world and developing world. So if you're in a developing, what they used to call third world country. Well, I can't even say that anymore. And you don't have Internet and you don't have running water, whatever. Success is not a meritocracy. You were bored with bad luck and you were born in a place where you're never going to be successful.

Okay.

If you're born in the UK with good Internet and AI and all the information We've got now on podcasts and everything. Success is a meritocracy. And if you want to be successful and you're not, it's kind of your fault.

But that's relative.

That's my belief.

But that's relative, though, in that format that you've just put, I think is relative. So that guy is probably not going to have the. Be able to get the 5 to 9 GTO.

Which guy? In Africa.

In Africa. But perhaps he could be the guy that does whatever is the equivalent of that in that country. What I'm saying is that. Yeah, okay, so I guess that's what I'm saying. So success is relative to the confines which we're in like the matrix. We've all been given to.

Yeah.

Be the worker being. And.

And also based on your definition of success and what you actually. Sure.

But all I'm saying is that it is my belief that it is very rare that hard work and success correlate percentage wise. Of course more people that work hard are going to be successful, but just because you work hard doesn't mean you're going to be successful.

I know, because people are down minds working hard. There's nurses working hard.

Sure, but even, but no, but hang on. But even artists, just that Rembrandt stuff, they were never that successful in their lifetime. It wasn't until they died that they were successful. So success is relative. And that's why I have such a fucking problem. Problem with anybody that treats someone differently because they are moneyed or because they have Athens. Because to me, people are people, man.

And also in my.

I don't think I deserve what I have, by the way. I just think that circumstances, etc. I work hard. I work hard because I'm a addict and my addictive nature went into, you know, sort of like staving off the feelings by doing deals and watches, you know, I mean, so it's all circumstance, man.

Yeah. Okay, so I don't agree. You don't deserve your success. Here's why. I believe that over a long enough period of time, you get what you deserve. Because we all get good breaks and bad breaks over a long enough.

Do you believe in afterlife?

I'll come to that part in a moment.

Because if you don't believe in afterlife, I have to strongly disagree with you. If you believe in afterlife and perhaps the success that we're owed in one life is paid forward, then I can go with that.

Robin Sharma is my friend and he said you. You know, karma goes across lifetimes. I'm probably not in which case, I agree I'm probably not going that deep.

Okay?

But I think it's somewhat false humility to say I don't really deserve any of my success. Because you know more about watches than pretty much anyone I know, and you've figured out how to.

But that's not because. But, mate, hang on. But that's not because I've studied. That's not.

That's because you've lived and sold and traded, hustled and breathed.

Okay, all right, but hang on, hang on. All right, okay, I get that. But at the same time, right, I've never been grown up, right. I'm in this situation, right, whereby my addictive nature that I put to the negative with drugs and all that when I was a kid has had to go somewhere, and it's gone into an obsession for wristwatches.

Yeah. And you're driving that.

But I'm not. It's a force, man. I don't believe it's a force.

Yeah, but you. You put it into drugs, and then you got it out of drugs, and then you put it into.

That I put it into drugs. Where. We're going down a rabbit hole here. But I put it into drugs because I felt tormented and unhappy as a kid. And so that's the thing that basically made me feel better. All I seem to do and have done in my life.

You still feel tormented?

Of course.

Yeah. Yeah, but.

Which is why I go to meetings.

Most entrepreneurial people, most successful people, they are carrying all the baggage.

But don't you think. But don't you think they're studying? But don't you think that studying for six years to be a doctor and then elevating and kind of like doing that whole kind of routine, that hard work to get somewhere that's real, like, kind of deserved success? I've just fucking winged it, man. And I love watches, and I'm quite good at it. But that's not because I've studied and put my head down. It's just been a force, a wave that I've been riding.

I just think it's a different definition. I bet you if you added the amount of hours that you have passionately learned about watches, I was like 16.

17 hours a day.

There you go.

Sure.

All right. So you haven't studied in books. But I'm learned on the field.

But never do I say, be disciplined, Tommy. Got to get on that WhatsApp. You gotta. It's just like.

Your own life force.

It's a drive. Exactly. But that life, anyone can be dictated to by things that happened to me in the past, I believe. Yeah. So therefore, do we ever really deserve this is all I'm saying. Listen, by the way, you want to paint me as the daddy, I'll be the daddy, all right, but all I'm saying is of watches, I mean, almost.

Metro section, the way you did that.

No. Can we do that again then, please?

Well, I mean, yeah, I, I suppose I am trying to give you your credit and I suppose I'm, I'm not saying it's false humility. I, I, you're driven, right? Yes.

Okay, but that's not something you have to try and be. You are driven, right, to do what you do to get the people you do to do your business, to do your houses, to do your finances. You're driven, man. Some people don't have that drive. So we're lucky.

No, but I, I, okay, not for what I do and not for what you do, but something that they do, that's their passion. I believe we all have a calling, a passion, a high sort of cluster of values, a plate, a purpose and a place in society. And look, most of the people who listen to my show, they're entrepreneurs or they're entrepreneurial. And I get it if you're in the public sector and you're a nurse because you just want to help people. If I ran the contract, pay nurses a lot more, by the way. But, you know, if you've in the first world and you've chosen, you want to follow your passion and you want to launch your own business, I believe if you work hard and work smart and keep going and stay in the game and learn on the job and pick something you enjoy over a long enough period of time, you're going to be successful.

Okay, I beg to differ. That's okay.

Why'd you differ then? What's, what's different? I mean, you just hold them and they go up. So of course you're going to be successful over the long term.

No, but listen, but listen. Just. All I'm saying is that just because you work hard, it doesn't mean, you.

Know, I said work hard and smart.

If I, if, Hang on. If I. Okay, so I guess the, and smart is, is the kind of, is the caveat there. But if I turn on the television today. Look, I come from a sort of a showbiz background, my parents and my son's an actor, etc. If I turn on the TV, and I'm not saying this, he's my son. Right. I'm saying it's because he just, you know, he's a good fucking actor. If I were him and I were turning on the TV and I were looking at eastenders, I would just be like, what the fuck, man? How are these people been getting this work when they literally. It's almost embarrassing to watch them, they're so bad. And that's all I'm saying. There are so many people that deserve far more than they get. And there are so many people that get more than they deserve. That's all I'm saying. Okay? And so I think that therefore the actual derivative of success, if we're calling success money and affluence and toys and whatever, I think we always have to be grateful and take the pinch of salt because no one really deserves anything if we look at the totality of what a meritocracy is. That's all.

Yeah, Yeah. I think I'm torn on this, okay. Because on. On the one hand, today, I don't think I deserve anything, okay? You know, I did what I did, and yesterday's yesterday.

Tomorrow you think you're the king of the world.

So I. I'm with you in that regard, in that just because I've done what I've done doesn't mean you can lose it all. Lockdown, you know, things like that. So in that regard, if you carry around this entitlement that you deserve, I'm with you.

I am of the opinion, though, right, that you can't not buy a lottery ticket and complain that you haven't won the lottery.

Yes. I mean, there's a lot of people out there, like.

Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. And by the way, I mean, like, absolutely. I'm not for a free lunch in any way whatsoever. I'm just saying that for people that do get the derivatives of the thing that they're striving for, just never really think that you deserve it because there are so many people that don't get it. That's all.

Yeah. And then I would just add at the end, though, because you said there's plenty of great actors or people out there. They're not there. Keep going there, for sure. Just because you will get a break.

If you keep going. Absolutely. Because also ultimately, right. It's about. Because that's that thing about how we feel as an individual. In other words, the only thing I want on my deathbed one day, right, is to.

There's a lot of watches.

It's to not feel like, man, I wish I'd done this. I wish I'd done that. I don't, I don't mind failing. I mind the fear of not trying or the, the associated feelings with not trying. So I wholeheartedly agree with you. I keep on trying until the end because it's all about how you feel when you go out, man.

Yeah. And all these things you've just said, there are what successful people say.

Okay.

Yeah. Right now we have a banking crisis, a potential global recession. If you'd like to learn how to cash in on the crash and not just survive, but thrive in challenging times, I invite you to join us at the Money Maker Summit Live. The link is robmore Live Money. I'm subsidizing a small number of tickets from my Rob Moore foundation or for a very small upgrade fee, you can get special VIP tickets where you meet me personally. You'll get your book signed. There's a VIP dinner with six multimillionaires and bonus money mindset sessions, as well as the special three days on getting your tax bill down, your income streams up. My eight stages of building wealth, my formula for riches and much more content at robmore Life Money. The agenda, the details, the dates and the speakers are all at the link. Robmore Live forward slash money. All right, then, let's have a bit of fun in this watch collection. Pick the watch in this collection that you think probably will go up the least or the least excites you, and then pick up the watch which you think will probably go up the most and most excites you. And then just tell us why for each one.

Ah, well, I mean, I know they're.

All rare, special watches.

They're not all, but are you talking percentage wise of its current value or are you talking about.

Yeah, I think that's a good way to do it because.

All right, so percentage wise of its current value, I mean, I have to take, take a group. I think that watches are still cheap for what they are. So I think that you can say that. Let's say you put that today at.

3, whatever that Nautilus is 3 million.

Yeah, yeah. I think that in. If you bear in mind that, right, that I bought this for like, I mean it was nothing, it was like a few thousand about 30 years ago. Right. And I think the watches haven't gone anywhere yet as far as their potential. I think that in, in 20 years time is 100 million pound watch. I think it's.

Wow.

Well, hang on, look, what are there for guys wealth is getting, is increasingly cars and watches.

What else is there for men?

Look at art. Look What? Art's done, so.

Yeah, but you can't take art with you anywhere, can you? The thing with a watch is you.

Sure, I get it. You mean you can smuggle it. You can roll a painting up or.

You'Re gonna go on a night out with a painting rolled under your arm.

You're not gonna go the night out of that. You get a bit pissed and go, come here dying. Yeah, but you know that I think that pro rata. I think that stuff like that Breitling.

You think pro rata, that'll go up.

Sure. Because the truth of it, it's just. It's.

You know when you say the truth of it, like the truth, you mean that is very cheap compared to the newer models. And that is about.

It's a beautiful watch. Yeah, it's a beautiful watch. Mechanically, it's just a beautiful watch. The great condition and the fact that you can buy it for the price of a new average TAG Heuer today. Just, you know, it should be a 25, 30,000 pound watch.

Right. And then you could. You could match it with a really nice strap that you like.

I know you're kicking me on the strap on that.

Well, yeah, I agree.

It's a terrible strap with the Breg It.

Was it the Breguet, you know, where you put that?

Yeah, sure. But it's all about. But again, it's that thing about style. Right. So. So when do fashions change? Let's say horological fashion. Horological fashions change when the horological fashions change. Hard to say that. I can't really speak. They change when someone stands up wearing something different. Right. So if you change it up when you take like a classically pipe and slipper dress watch like this, which is the Bregazer. Correct. Right. And then you change it up by putting a NATO military strap on it. Yeah, it looks great.

It does look cool.

Suddenly people go, oh, I might wear a vintage dressy watch that looks cool like that. It's all about that. It's about how you wear them and the confidence that you've got to wear them. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So, yeah, so I think that, you know that. I mean, yeah, they're not a bad. They're not a bad investment.

Okay, so you think that the Breitlings put as a percentage wise, could do good?

Absolutely.

Okay.

Interesting watch here. I think that. So Patek, right. So we talked about the Rolex day date being their flagship watch. The perpetual calendar chronograph is Patek's flagship complication they were the first perpetual calendar watch and this is a more recent one being the 5970 in yellow gold. Now they started making this watch in the sort of 40s really with the, with the 1460. Sorry, but the 1518. And they made more of the 1518 in yellow gold than they did of this or roughly the same amount, let's say. Okay. Is this, now this is a naughties, an early noughties rendition of that watch with a Lamania based movement. Probably the best looking, finest made example that they've manufactured, no longer made. And they made 300 pieces and yet it's around 170 grand. The platinum version, they made 600 pieces and yet they're at sort of quarter of a million. So I would say. Well from a rarity aspect, Right. And from a truth aspect and from a beauty aspect and what a watch. Right. I would buy as many of those as I could and just plant them away because I think they will be 5, 6, 700,000 pound watches. Wow. Because they also problem with vintage watches for a lot of people is they're small.

Yes.

And most fellas, Sorry. But predominantly, predominantly it's fellows that collect wristwatches. They're like a bigger watch today because you went to the whole 42, 44 mil thing. Going back down to a 34 mil is just for some people is too, just a bit too offended for how they feel.

Yeah.

So it's still got the size, but it's got the rarity. Plus I'm not making any more. I think it's an absolute, you know, no brainer. Yeah. So those, this, I mean the white girls. Okay, so interesting. So this is the equivalent of this.

Right.

We talked about the sort of three million pound noises. Right. This is a white gold ap, actually royal oak. Yeah. Roughly of the same era as the, as the, as the Nautilus.

Yeah.

This was at sort of around quarter of a million quid. It has a sort of tropical dull, which is when it turns sort of to a brown color. Yet this today is like around the sort of 150. Great value, great investment, great watch. Will be a million pound watch in my opinion because they made the perfect amount. They made around 120 of them, which is enough for the dealers to get behind them, to buy them, to put them away, to play the game, to hype the, the market and to turn them into the million pound watches. Right. So they can be. A watch can be too rare for its own good. Like this here. So this is a, this is a platinum Example of the aforementioned 59 centing yellow girl I told you about. It's got an emerald bezel in it, right? It's like sort of over a mil. But you know, really, I mean, they made. We don't know how many they made. Let's say they made a minimum of five for them. Good value, great value. But there's not enough of them for dealers to get behind and hype the price of, right? So take one of those 59 centuries and get a goal. There's 300. You know what? Leaders can play the game because it's all a game, right? It's like, oh, it's all, you know, not all a game, but a lot of it is a game.

What's the game?

Well, the game is that, you know that a lot of dealers will go, okay, Kingpin dealers will get together around the world and they'll go, do you know what? What's our next. What's our next move? Right? I don't get involved in this. And they'll go, okay, you know what? Let's all try and push. Recently there's been this thing, right? Unbelievable, right? The Asprey's aftermarket stuff. Oh, wow. So basically a lot of important watches like that Kanjar Daytona here, right. This watch here, okay, which has got the Sultan of Oman's green kanja. Right. I think you said you have a big red, right?

Yes.

Okay. Can I ask you what, what did you pay for your big red in.

In the early twenties?

When?

Ten years ago?

Ish. Okay, so is it silver dial or black dial?

Black dial.

Okay.

Pan. Is it panda?

Yeah, I think it's white dollar, but yeah, yeah, it's a black guy with black dial.

With the white.

Yes, it's black dot one. Okay. Yeah. So today, if it's nice, that's a sort of, what, let's call it a 70 gram watch. Okay? Right. This is exactly the same watch, but the Sultan of Oman ordered a few of these. And instead of the. The full script, they put a green emblem on the dial.

Yeah.

Which means that this is now a 1.2 million pound watch. And the standard one that you've got is a 60 gram watch. Okay. Got to also bear in mind, talk about investment and stuff, right? If only I knew now. What if I'm telling you I knew then what I knew now?

Yeah.

Honestly, in the early 90s, there are a few of these that came up. We used to take the Kanjong dials off and we used to bin them because who the fuck wanted an Arab flag on Their watch, man. Do me a favor. Do you mean try and find an original normal dial? Put it on. That's the only way you could sell it. You couldn't sell them, right? Okay, so, okay, I know great developer Twitch, but sort of get this nervous Inspector Cluzo twitch whenever I start thinking about those Antext. But in the back it's got Asprey's engraved because all these Sultan watches, the majority of them were ordered through Asprey's who then sold them to the Sultan of Oman. Now Asprey's for one reason, another I'm not going to go into had their Rolex franchise taken away from them. Okay, so what they're now doing what they're now doing. Dealers are gonna hate me. Oh my God. It's gonna be a contract out of my head. One of the reasons that I believe they had their franchise taken away was because it's a combination of things. I think it was dealing on the gray market, which you're not supposed to do as a retailer, I think.

And also as in selling secondhand watches.

Well, selling stuff through the. At a premium, whatever through. You should be saying that retail, I think. I don't know, I. Maybe I shouldn't say that because I'm not 100 sure. But that's the rumor. And they've also recently been customizing watches. Now what they're doing very cleverly is although they're no longer a Rolex agent, they're customizing Rolexes and putting Asprey's on the dial now. Because in the psyche of collectors, this Ashby's and Rolex or this sort of partnership, they're getting away with prices that are unbelievable at auctions to me, a customized watch. Unless it is the likes of Artisana Geneva who genuinely take a Rolex watch and kind of make it cooler and make it better.

But that still probably doesn't do long term value any good, does it?

I don't know, man. I think the artisan are kind of are a Lawrence. By the way, I'm not an artisan agent, so I've got nothing to push here. Yeah, I think I've got one one of their watches in stock. That's it. Right. But I think they do make them kind of cool them better mechanically. They do to them as pretty amazing, right?

But them as them aside, you don't like any aftermarket at all?

No, I didn't say that. I like them, but their value retainment is very subjective because they are in effect a bastardized Rolex. Right? Yeah. And by the way, I'm the first person to do it. I, I created the, the first people to do it with the Bamfords. Oh, they were like, lacking.

Yeah.

And I did it for them.

Oh, did you?

Yeah, I did it for them. And I used to make stamp the dials, etc.

Right.

They stopped that because Rolex didn't like it.

Also really threatened them.

Did. I don't know about that. I just know that Rose didn't like it.

But why would Bamford care?

Well, because maybe they do. I don't know. They do. I mean, and so they.

Because I remember that phase and there was quite a few of them.

Yeah, yeah. And you know what?

And they looked all right.

Thank you. Yeah. But you know what's really interesting is that they used to buy, then they used to buy the vintage plastic glass versions because they were cheaper than the modern sapphire glass versions. Can you believe that?

Right. Wow.

Now they're like over double. But then I was selling them loads of those that we could black and stamp because they were cheaper than the, than the sort of the, the, the. Than the modern versions. But anyway, so now what's happening is that there are all these aftermarket Asprey's watches being created, which again, for me are aftermarket watches.

Yeah.

And they're being hyped up in auctions and they're going for crazy money because the vibe, the sort of, the subliminal vibe, if you like, is that there's something to do with Rolex. Right.

Wow. Okay. So what do you reckon is the most overrated watch?

I. I think that's difficult. I think that probably I'm setting myself up to shoot every single brand down here, but I think probably. Listen, people say to me, what's your favorite watch? No such thing. A watch is about how it makes you feel. You feel different according to any day you wake up in the week. Right. So impossible question, but I think with a, with a, with, with watches. I think both cool watches and both overvalued watches depend on the model within each brand. I would say that, that, that with Patek, I think that their kind of previous now deleted. So, you know, 5711. I mean, I just don't get it.

Surely the Aquanaut's got to be one of the most overrated watch models. People are going mad for those.

Okay, well, hang on.

Okay, so now it's like a reject Nautilus.

Okay, well, I counted you with this. Right. I understand why you say that.

And men are wearing nearly, nearly women's watches.

The 5711. Okay, let's start with that.

Right, which is the Nautilus.

Yeah, yeah. That is a reinterpretation a, a, a copy if you want, of a prior original watch from the 70s.

Is it not just an evolved version of itself, I mean, still copying itself, is it, it's the latest model.

It's just fucking. It's exactly the same watch, but it's made in a cheaper way because it's got a three piece case rather than a two piece case and all right. It's got a second hand that goes around. I mean it's not much of an involvement if you ask me.

Okay.

But at least with the Equinor, at least it is an original watch. At least the Equinor was the first sort of like beach rubberized kind of sports watch that really Patek kind of made Nautilus excluded, you know, I mean. So the Aquanaut I guess I sort of have more sympathy with because it's a, it's a newer take, it's a more recent take of theirs. It's not a copy as such. It's a derivative of the Nautilus, but it's not a copy. It stands its own. It's got its own place in my opinion. So whilst I don't like the Equinox because they're just so trendy. Right. But, but. And you see all the kind of playboys on the beach with the green dial and the chrono yawn, you know, But I actually think that there are certain bowls of the Aquanaut like the sort of 36mil, 5066 in gold with the grenade dial and a bracelet killer watch. And they're like 70 grand killer watch, you know, and original. They never made anything like it before. So I think there are some akronauts actually that are. All right, sorry.

No, that's fine. Like we're here to discuss. And I'm not, I'm not going to get offended. This show is called Disruptors and. Okay, so what is the most overrated watch then? Whether it's a brand or a type of watch?

Well, I think a 5711 with Patek's pretty overrated.

Okay, yeah, I suppose that's quite a big statement, isn't it?

Because, because it's the, it's the icon.

Yeah. Okay, so what about an underrated watch?

Unrest watch? I think that Jaeger makes some pretty sexy stuff.

They do, and I like them, but they still drop.

Like why? I'm talking street values to remember.

No. Yeah, so you're talking Secondhand. Yeah, I agree with you.

I'm not interested in the price of a watch in the shop. No, it just doesn't interest.

So you want to buy it at the bottom of its depreciation?

No, I don't. No. I want to buy it for what it's worth. I know that I'm not going to lose my shirt and I can stock it and I haven't got to sell it. I like an egg that's going off before it plummets in value.

But no one seems to get Jager. No one talks about Jager. That I know.

No, because it's not. They haven't perhaps got the right icon to wear it because all people go by is who's wearing what and what's trending. But for value, for money. I'm not talking about, you know, trends. Value for money. I think Jager makes some great stuff.

Yeah, agree that.

I think that. I think that early Hoyas are cool as hell, man.

Right?

Not a big fan of Tag Heuer? No, I think the early Hoyas are cool. I think that. Listen, you can pick a brand and that. There'll be a model in there that I think that's cool. Okay.

Pick a good hubler.

Okay. So the original series, right? So the original series of Hublot, right? Interesting watch. Because in the 80s you're not talking.

About the Big Bang, are you?

No, fuck Big Bangs. A copy of a fucking Royal Oak, man. Yeah, Genius. If you're talking about numbers. If you're talking about numbers and profit at the cost of soul and the cost of integrity, etc, Hubert's the greatest brand out there. What a brand.

That's not a brand, though.

Sure is the. You tell that to Mr. Hublot that's not rocking around his super yacht.

Are they. Are they like. Do they have any. They make.

Can I tell you a story?

Yes.

So I. I bought a watch from JT Once, right? John Terry and I took a Hublot, number 26, which he bought in an auction, by the way. Can I just give a shout out to JT because he gets a lot of bad press. He gave me a hublot I didn't give me. I took it in the deal from him, right? I'll tell you a funny story about playing table tennis for him with him in a minute and losing on a big. I did a deal with the Rolls Royce and something else with him and.

And you played for it over table 10.

And I lost. I didn't play for the car. But I'll tell you a story about it. Yeah. My son loved it because he loves it when I. Because he's quite sporty, my son. He stays away from sports that I can play and I can play table tennis. But JT got inside my head and did me. But anyway, he gave me in part exchange a Hublot number 26. I said, I'll take it with this. We had a bit of a. Bit of a kind of haggle and I took it. I got home and I started looking at it and I thought, this has got to be fake. I was like, I called him up and I was like, jt, I don't seem like I can't hear, but where'd you get this watch from? He goes, I bought it in auction. It's number 26. Etc. You know, it's like a hublot thing with Viva. And I was like, okay, cool, all right. He goes, why so. Just so badly finished, mate. I just, to be honest with you, I'm wondering if it's real. He goes, what? He's all, let me know and I will, will. And it was so badly finished, right, that I thought, it can't be really. And I sent my son down to hublot. I said, just go and show this. I think his name is Derek or someone at hublot. Give this once over, right? And I think that's a bit of a joke about the fact that watch guru was sending his boy in to see whether hublot is fucking real or not. He's like, yeah, yeah, no, they are like that, mate. You know they are. He's right. I was just like, wow.

Right?

I mean the finishing on it was just like.

How did they get away though, with being such a bad reputation?

Most dealers don't know what end to look out of with an eyeglass today. What chance is a private client of knowing what. What do you know? I mean, yeah, it's all about the, you know, the, the look, baby. And they're genius. They are a cost effective offshore out of my pique for, you know, a third of the money. I mean, it's clever, but you asked me, the brand was only big in Spain in the 80s, right. Most of them were caught. Most of them are caught. But there's an automatic version, early porthole, the early porthole hublots from the 80s. Magical looking things really. Yeah. And cheap. Now, great watches. How much watches you buy steel ones a day for a couple of grand.

Wow.

Two and a half grand. Buy gold one for four. Great watches, man.

And do you think that they could go up?

Sure.

And what do you think of rolex as a brand.

What do I think of the brand? I think that. Okay, first of all, I heard something that Oscar said from official, whereby he, I think, equated Rolex to be like Ferrari. I kind of disagree with that. In fact, I did a program called Time Machines years ago, went out on CNBC where I did a whole thing about Ferrari being like Patek and Rolex being like Porsche. Because to me, Porsche are. I mean, like, they're a cost effective car compared to a Ferrari, but they're still pretty incredible. And design wise, you look at them, you look at the kind of Speedster and you look at the 911 today, it's the same car, all right, it's got some bigger bulges and some fins and whatever, but it's the same car, right? That's because if something ain't broke, you don't fix it. And I think that Rolex created the Oyster. And if you look at this watch here, you know, and you look at a. Sadly got one but like a day date or something like that, I mean, it's the same watch, it's got a bigger case, you know what I mean? And that's. And that's why they've been genius. And they were also genius because when the Court's evolution revolution came out in the sort of 60s, 70s, the Quartz Revolution, when battery powered watches came in, everybody fucking panicked. Amiga, oh my God. And Amiga, who were always battling out with Rolex for supremacy as far as which was the watch to have, etcetera, Panicked and thought the watch business is going to end and they started creating watches for everyday man. Diluted their brand. Diluted their brand. And they've never recovered since, really, as far as their kudos. And they're now a tear underneath Rolex, in my opinion, as a result of, of, of that Rolex.

I just want to jump in. We'll come back to the relic story. Do you think, do you think they went another level down by collabing with Swatch? No, I think they did.

Do you?

Well, because it pushes. If it pulls Swatch up, which he does, therefore got to pull Amiga down.

Listen, do you really think that modern Amiga has kudos?

No.

There you go.

So you think it's already in the gutter, the brand.

Ah, gutter Strong.

Well, you. You said it couldn't come down anymore.

No, I didn't. I said, do you think that modern Amiga in the sphere of watches that we're talking about, has kudos? I don't think it does have kudos. I think it's a. In the same way that compared to this stuff, I think it's on a level with Tag Heuer. It's on a level, this kind of stuff, in my opinion.

Yeah, but then Swatch is a quartz cheap watch.

Hey, listen, you know, I think Swatch.

Did better out of that, okay?

But Swatch own Amiga, so.

Oh, then that says it all, doesn't it? There you go.

There you go.

That, that sort of thing pisses me off, actually.

Oh, I don't mind that.

I mean, I get it.

If you got it Flex man, why not? I mean, if you can make that work, why not?

It's like, oh, yeah, we'll do the URUS and we'll do the rs.

Do you know why? Do you know why I think it works so well?

What? The Swatch collab.

Yeah, you know why I think you.

Think it works well.

Oh, genius. Look here, don't drop it, okay?

Okay.

Ready?

Yeah.

Million quid. Don't drop me.

A million pound watch. So that is lighter than an A Swatch.

But let me ask you a question, right?

That's a million pound watch.

Look at the smile on your face, man. That takes you back, right, that you.

Don'T know what this smile means.

Well, listen, but doesn't it take you back to being under the Christmas tree as a kid when you're unwrapping your present and you get. It's like a plastic fucking toy, right? So to me, I get that what, what, what Richard Mille have done, okay? And I'll come back to Swatch, right? But what.

And then we'll go back to Rolex.

But what Richard Mille have done, okay.

That'S a million pounds.

They've revolutionized wristwatches because here, this is the most complicated watch ever made in history, right? It's an IWC grand complication. Literally, at the time, it was the most complicated watch ever made in history. One piece made for the, for the. The Sultan of, of Brunei, right? The problem with this, right, is that even when I'm putting this down, right, it's so heavy.

Yeah.

And so the complications in there, all these levers and wheels etc, are so fragile, you knock them, it's broken. Grand. 15 grand service, right? That is a fucking tourbillon. The most fragile complication in the world. And yet you can throw it, you can toss it, whatever is genius. What Richard Mille did is when. You know what? I'm going to make complications that are not only durable, but Raphael Nadal is going to fucking wear one when he's bludgeoning his backhands down the line. Genius. So he revolutionized watchmaking with that watch. Now, when I first bought one of those watches, right, I bought out the Italian retailer in about 18 years ago, he called me up, he said, tom, he goes, I've tried these Richard Mills out here in Italy. They just don't want to know. They're too boring. They want Patek complications, they want Daytona. They just don't give a. And I bought him out of all his watches. Yeah. So I took all his rms, spent a fortune with them.

Yeah.

And it's the first time they'd only just come out. Okay. They only just come out. And I took one of them often and it came to me, it got sent to me and I went to the. To the shippers and basically I laughed. When I opened it up and I held it in my hand, I just laughed because I thought, this is insane. And at the time, it was 175 grand. I paid for it, right. I was like, like, what the. It's like a plastic toy that I get out of a cracker. And that says it all. Watches. But then when you look at the truth behind it, it's incredible. The watch is a mechanical marvel, right? And so that's what it's about. Watches are about the way that they make you feel, man. Now, by contrast, that watch revolutionized high end complications today, right? It's the ultimate watch today. The most expensive. What, Richard Miller, etc. Right? By contrast, right? This thing here in the 1980s.

You're not going to throw that at me.

In the 1980s, right?

Million quid for this piece of plastic.

Yeah.

I wish people watching and listening could feel how light that is.

I did a post once where I tossed it into a pool and it kind of floated for a bit.

Yeah.

So. So basically. But let's stay on that for a minute. So I don't. I'm too stupid to kind of be able to correlate it. All these thoughts.

Sorry. I'll guide us back.

Thanks. And then let's go back to Swatch now. Okay, so listen, so the reason why I think, okay, so that is a plastic watch being worth. People are perverse, right?

Yeah.

Everybody, I believe, are perverse. Porn, whatever it is. Okay. Everybody's got their secret they don't really want people to know about, right now with that perversion of a plastic watch being worth a fortune of money. And it's light. Whereas I always thought the expensive watch had jewels and was platinum, was heavy.

Okay.

Amiga have tapped into that beautifully because they've gone, you know what, we're gonna collaborate with Swatch because they're both only shows we know, and we're gonna make some plastic Speedmasters. Genius and that to any collector. So I've seen loads of RM owners, Right. Love rocking a Amiga spoon watch because it kind of crosses over. Yeah. To that vibe of plastic watch being worth money. It's genius.

Yeah, I. I thought I did. I didn't know Swatch owned Amiga and I just thought it was a punching up for Swatch and down for Amiga, but. But yeah, they've got everyone paying 250 pound for a piece of plastic and then 300.

They were more than that.

Well, yeah, I remember I bought the Neptune, paid 1500 quid.

There you go. Can I ask you a question? Having said that statement, how do you feel?

Rob, we all make mistakes. Failure is a part of success. I will take you.

I will take you to safety deposit boxes. Thanks.

Yeah, yeah. So, no, I'm not. I'm not really bothered. I actually keep it. I like it, you know, I like the look of it. So, yeah, that. What was that AP you picked up?

Okay, so. For the same reason as that.

Okay, so you like. You like the Swatch Amiga collab.

I do.

They must be making loads of money out of it, surely. I'm sure they are, because I guess they're going to make millions of those watches.

Yeah, I guess.

And I guess they're gonna just keep churning out new variations. There's like 20 variations already.

We use the pits out. Yeah, I'm sure. And also, by the way, Swatch also own Blancpain. And Blancpain did the 50 fathoms again, a very cool watch. Plastic.

Yes. They did the collab there.

Yeah, yeah. So that. Okay. Altered my senses, completely smashed my perception of what a watch was.

Yeah.

And for me, that's important because it doesn't get. You know, it takes something pretty perverted to get me turning my head like a puzzle dog. Right.

Yeah.

For the same reason. In 19. In the 1980s, watches were about slimness, they were about a small size, 34 mil. Etc, lightness, etc, you know, and suddenly, right, so you got this watch here, which is the sort of the wafer thin kind of, you know, the AP. Yeah, AP. Royal Oak 5402. First reference of a. Of a Royal Oak ever. And suddenly AP go, in 1993, they go, y', all, man. And they bring out this absolute beh. And I remember now, this is white gold. Okay. This is rarer than fuck. They probably made less than 20 pieces. It's number one. It's a. It's a. It's a holy grail of watches, right?

Yeah.

But even in steel, which I don't have right here, today was a beast. I remember looking at it and just laughing and putting it on my chicken wrist and going. But I loved it again. So the two most important watches that revolutionized the whole watch game, I think, were three minutes Daytona we talked about. Yeah. The. The RM and the sort of. But then this. This beast in white gold.

That is just weighs a ton.

But imagine. Imagine if this was what you were used to as far as, like, that was a big watch, and you were thinking, could I really get away with wearing that? And suddenly someone puts that in your hand, and you're like, what the fuck is this? Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that almost feels like it's platinum.

It does. Almost agree.

Wow. And how much is this watch?

Okay, but that was. See, what's happened now is because this whole crash in. In modern watches. Right?

Yeah, but there was a massive bubble post Covid.

Sure. Of course. I'm saying a crash, as according to a crash to me is anything that comes rapidly down. Right. Regardless of where it was before. Right. It went up. Yeah. But that's some of the price you could have cashed out, right?

Yeah.

And basically to come down. So. Okay, let's not use the word crash. Let's use the word the big dip.

Yeah.

Like it. Let's drop that.

Okay.

So as far as the correction after Covid, when watches as far as the correction after Covid when watches came back down in coming back down. And by the way, it deserved to come back down because the prices were fucking insane for what. I think there's a lot of fodder in the first place anyway. Right. That never should have gone up in the first place. It took with it a lot of truth. Now, that watch there, I think I now own that a client of mine turned down, I think, 200,000 for that watch. Wow. And I think I took it in a deal from him for like, you know, 100 grand or something, you know, so.

Right.

Although that's a lot of money I need in a historical timepiece.

Yeah.

Number one of a truly historical timepiece. Number one of a historical timepiece of an apex version of that timepiece. It's for no money, and I think it'd be worth a million quid, you know, so.

Wow. All right, so now let's go back to Rolex. What do you really think about Rolex?

Okay, so we Talked about the. Oh, such a long question for me to answer. Listen, they are. They're almost responsible for the turnaround of my life. Right. Because they basically. Thank you. They, you know, they are the thing that inspired me to turn. Let's turn my life around because I was already clean and sober. But they were the thing that focused my energies upon something that could give me the life that I have today. Right. So I love them for that and I'll be eternally grateful to them for that. Along with the fact that my dad, you know, that watch that. That's the most important watch I have right there, that one, you know.

Yeah.

And, you know, so I love them for that. But if you're asking me, you know, what do I think of them as far as should they have the standing that they have today in Watch World? Absolutely not.

Why not?

I think that they are an example of someone or a company that has absolutely maximized their past, which is now, in my opinion. The last sexy thing they did was in the 1930s with the automatic watch, although I might give them the 1950s with the day date. But apart from that, not much going, not much else going on. And I think that it just shows what the glossy magazines, what the, the advertisements, what the hype can create and can build if you throw enough mud at the wall. I really do. I think that they are massive. I think that most watchmakers will tell you that the movement quality of a Rolex today just isn't the same that it was even in the sort of like the late 90s. I think that in the noughties and onwards, I think that the quality wise and meritocracy wise, I think they're definitely on the. On the decrease, I think. Wow. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. Rolex, I love you, but hey, I'm.

Gonna defend you again here. I think you answered that in a balanced way. And I think we need more balance in the world. I think the ability to say, I love Rolex because. And I don't love Rolex because.

True.

I love X because. And I don't love X because. And I try and be like that. And it's not very popular for social media.

I will say one.

So I don't think you slag Rolex.

Okay. But I will say.

I think you could have said more.

You know what I will say about Rolex as well, which is again, probably a negative. Well, that's not probably. It is a negative, is it? Look, when I got into Watch World, okay, they were so helpful. They were so respectful. Like they had A fucking lost and stolen number that if you were buying a pre owned watch, you could call them up and they would call you back within select 20 minutes and tell you whether the watch was registered as lost or stolen for no cost.

Yeah, yeah.

How amazing is that? Yeah. How respectful of okay people is that you could. I knew the MD of Rolex UK and Henry Hudson who passed away sadly, bless him. And if I had any queries I could email him, call him. And they kind of knew as well that, you know, that listen, that selling expensive vintage relics is good for the brand as well. Right. It's like, you know, so, you know, so. So I guess that was good. And then if he couldn't answer questions, I could even call Geneva. Now you can't. It's like trying to get blood out of the stone. They don't want to get involved. They don't want to. Whatever, fine. Okay. You know what? Stay in your lane. I get it. It's kind of sad because it's not hugely respectful of people that have in a way unwittingly helped build your brand because they have. Listen, when you see watches, when you see Rolex is going for 5 million quid, 6 million quid, 14 million quid brand, right? So and now they've recently got involved with the whole pre owned market and they've bought Booker, the sort of the, the, the watch retailer and they've launched their CP of their certified pre owned program. Right.

So they're selling them new and then they're selling them again pre owned right now.

But here's the thing, right? As far as the actual. As far as the. Can I put this, the sharp end of the whole Rolex collectible industry, they don't really know too much about it, man. Okay. So they're now given opinions and servicing watches that perhaps aren't worthy of service and perhaps they shouldn't be selling because the dial's been changed or whatever, etc. Now that in conjunction with.

So they're selling Frankenstein's. That's what you mean?

Well, if we. Hang on, if we're saying Frankenstein as a, A dial, a face that doesn't belong in a watch, then yes, because basically we have to accept. Right, look, we just talked about a Daytona there with a can jar in it, right? It's 1.2 million quid. Same watch without a can jar, 70 grand, right? So a dial is important in a watch. I got a steel moon phase. I wish I bought it today for you. That what, a million and a half quid for it? I just sold one then he made around 100 of them. I got a steel one with a restored face in it that I just saw for 150 grand. So a face is important. So when you're selling stuff that has little replacement based faces and you're not divulging that and saying, this watch, it's a problem. Right, right. So, you know, I just think that they're messing up the market a bit. That coupled with the fact that they're not giving any help unless you really kind of like smash down the door, whatever, it's a bad combo, man. And I think it's disrespectful to the public as well. I think it's disrespectful. I think it's disrespectful to the people that have helped build their brand in the past with vintage stuff, going for the money that it has.

Is this a cultural thing or is this just individual brands? But there's been something that's been pissing me off for quite a few years now and I'll put it out there so, you know, you can stand behind me and I'll take the bullets for you. But I bought a lot of aps and they treated me really well and.

I love them as a company.

Well, I used to.

I will say one thing, I love AP Geneva as a company. Not crazy about them in the uk.

Yeah.

All right.

So ap, I'd bought say four or five aps and not all of them from AP on, on the used market. And they would take me to the Watch show every year. They'd have private dinners unveiling their new collections and they'd invite me, Jamie Redknapp, all of that lot. Yeah, yeah, they do all that. And they'd make you feel really special and they'd show you the watches before anyone else and you'd get an opportunity to get a limited edition when they were limited edition before anyone else. And that. That's all gone down. They don't give a. They don't care anymore.

They don't need to.

Is it just that?

I. I think sadly, I mean, it must be right.

I. I've not bought enough. You did this with your tongue. So I've not bought enough watch to go up the highest because, you know.

When they whine, they die. And they were giving everybody a blood because they're just being nice to you. They want you to buy their shit, man. Yeah, okay. But now they realize actually we don't need to wine and dine these mofos because guess what, we got a fucking waiting list anyway. And we ain't got to buy the expensive wine.

I love it when. I love it. How you go so street when you say things like that.

No, I'm not giving that black accent. I'm just saying they don't need to. Right.

So maybe I'm just sour then that they used to treat me nice and now they don't. No, because also, what's happening?

Too personal?

Yeah, maybe, maybe. But maybe they made it personal.

The fact. The fact that they've not been respectful to you is wrong.

Well, I'm not saying, like the last three, I've now got my third person looking after me who isn't looking after me. They want to know all the watches I've got in my collection, clearly, to judge me. Why do I have to give them all the watches I've got in my collection? Yeah. And they want all that. And then I guess.

Ferrari. Right? It's just.

Well, I was going to say that. Ferrari, Rolex, you know, and they're making you buy three or four or five, you know, window watches and cars, and then you don't even get the one you want.

It is repugnant.

Thank you. Hallelujah. I got told I I could have the blue one. I really love the look of that blue ceramic ap. And I got nowhere near it, and I got nowhere near anybody. Just buy more. And then they invite you in. Oh, sorry, we haven't looked after you. We'll look after you now. Here's your new manager. And then they bring out a load of shit watches that they can't.

I get. But here's the thing, all right. The battle for them is. And I think the battle in life, right, is that the whole thing's a contradiction in turn. The whole thing's a kind of a contradiction.

Right. Look, a paradox.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you. I was looking for the word, really. It's about how do you tread the line of mass production with the most diligence.

You go over the creativity as well.

And you start giving everybody blue ceramics. Suddenly the blue ceramics ain't worth that much money.

No.

So it's all a game. Yeah, it's all a game. So it's not about. I'm obvious.

You have challenged me, though. You've challenged me to think, is my ego getting in the way here? But then.

But haven't. But I think you're still.

Because I just feel the fact that they. Once it was like they cared and now they don't.

It's the same thing. With Rolex, it's the same deal, man, is that they once needed you. But. Yeah, and the thing is, though, right, and that everybody. It's like you once scratched their back, right, because you were the punter that was buying their watches when other people weren't.

And I was even load.

They still take care of you. Yeah. Okay, so let's defend the watch companies for a second if we can. Okay. All right. There's only one of you, right? I'm not hugely knowledgeable about all your business affairs, Rob, but I think predominantly you're like a. A property guy. Is that right? As far as your. Okay, right. So if you have regular people that you sell to, let's say. Right, okay. And suddenly blackrock come in and say, rob, we want you to buy us properties, man. Right? And we need to. We need to buy properties. Whatever. Maybe I'm choosing a Naji. I don't know.

Right, nice you', analogy, BlackRock. I'd tell them to go themselves.

All right, so that's what they did, right?

Because they'd own me then.

Okay, so. But basically, listen, maybe they don't want to own you, but they want you to buy properties for them.

Okay?

And it's taken every working hour that you've got to fulfill their needs, but, wow, you're getting fat from it. Would you genuinely still give the same amount of time to the buyers that you got right now that feed you the same amount of time?

Your heart says you. You'd like to think you would, but your head says you probably wouldn't be able to.

There you go.

Yeah, yeah. And I get that. And it's business.

But you know what they should have done, though?

They might have lost me as a client, and they'd have. They've probably made packets since lockdown, but. Okay, so why do they care?

So here's, here's. Here's another analogy, right, Which I think is kind of cool.

So I don't want 4 million followers on social media, so maybe that's not a smart move.

No, exactly. It's not a smart move for them, I agree. But at the same time, right, I think what they could have done is written you a letter or written clients, a generic letter even, that said, listen, we thank you so much for the support you're giving us in the brand. However, because demand now is just so crazy for us and because we can't really fulfill the need, please take this as a sort of. As a. As an appreciation of our esteem for the help you've given us, and please don't take insult or offense. They could have just done something whereby they're acknowledging the people in the past or something. I think they could have. For example, right, as I told you, when I was a kid, right, I was naughty. Drugs, all that kind of stuff. Teenager. And I got sent to a mom when I was a kid first of robbing coots. If you're gonna do a bank, may as well do coots, right? Okay.

You robbed coots.

Yeah, not with a gun, but I like ripped him off.

Okay.

I was terrible as a kid. I. I meet people now, right. I. I gave an article this. To this, right. This is madness, right? I gave.

You didn't nick watches off of, did you? That would have been.

I. I gave an article about this charity that I'm kind of. That I started the Telegraph and. And I should not say it, it and the guy, the editor before we sat down, the. The journalist, we sat and says, Tom, there is something I must tell you before we start is that I know something, you know. And I'm like, all right, who's that? She goes, well, yeah, yeah, it's a woman called Joe. And I'm like okay. He says, yeah. She said you carjacked her in the West End of London to the bus. And I was like, oh, okay, right. And basically I sort of like said, well, can I have her number pleasing. Such as try and make amends or whatever, you know. So I did some pretty crazy. But the reason that sort of diverse there but. But the reason that I brought this up is because Coots basically blacklisted me. I went to Roman, came out, couldn't open a bank account. Five years. I had to go to a loan shark to borrow one and a half thousand pounds at 10% a month to start my watch business.

10Amonth.

I couldn't open a bank.

But you paid that back, did you?

Paid it back?

Well, you'd have been dead if you.

Didn'T back after four months. He saw how well I'd done those four months and then later became my business partner which soon got dissolved. Don't worry.

Right.

But basically, yeah, now. So after a while I managed to open up a bank and I think it took seven years where I was allowed to open a bank out somewhere else. It's not worth whatever. And then Coots talk about this thing about apart acknowledging. Coots wrote me a letter that I've still got. He said, Dear Mr. Bolt, we know that we've had our differences in the past and sent me down, right? But we couldn't Help but notice that your business has gone from strength to strength and wondered if you'd now like to join us.

So you conned them. Did you go to prison for that?

I went to Vermont, yeah.

Oh, wow. And then they wrote you that letter, and now they'd write to you saying, sorry, you've been debanked.

Don't say that. Oh, wow.

That's, that's really good. Right. Which watch have you bought that's made the most money? And it can be in percentage terms of growth or just you or you bought really cheap and it went really high or just it's gone nuts.

Oh. Do you know what? I think I'm probably going to plead the fifth on that.

No.

I think so.

You know. Are you.

So I know I got your juice stuff in the strip club. Sorry you can't come home.

I didn't think we had that kind of relationship.

What?

What? Is it because you don't want to name the watch or is it because it's a lot of money?

It's, it's a fair amount of money.

Okay. Because I, I, I wouldn't be doing my job.

Yeah.

If I didn't chase you.

That's fine. We'll see. Okay, here. We'll see. Okay. About, about 24 years ago. I make, I, I'm quite lucky. Okay. You can call it a gift or whatever, but I kind of seem to be able to see what's coming next in, in watch world. Okay. So I kind of spot trends, I guess not because I'm actually looking. I just, I feel it. It's like, you know when a 328 Ferrari. Right. one point that was just a, has been kind of slightly ugly car that was out of date. Right. And then when this space of a month, suddenly you thought, wait a minute, that thing looks cool now. Right. It's that kind of spotting that a bit earlier. Right. So I was always into vintage diamond watches, so much so that people have written articles about me as being before I said sort of king of bling on this sort of shot, which I didn't really like because it makes me seem a bit kind of like, no offense to Dubai dwellers, but Dubai. And I'm not. And I basically bought a 6270, which is a, it's similar to your 6263, the kanji or whatever it is.

Okay. So Rolex Daytona.

Yeah. In gold with a baguette bezel.

Yeah.

And a pave diamond doll. Okay. Right. And I was into diamond stuff when people just were not okay. And everyone was like, why are you buying this kind of diamond stuff? I just felt it. I just loved it. Right. Because it was disruptive. People were wanting stainless steel stealth watches. And I was like, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And I paid. It had a bit of damage to the bezel and I took it in the deal for like, I don't know, gonna say like 30 grand or something like that. Okay. And suddenly diamond stuff started to get kind of like really big, I mean, etc, you know, by the way, I was diving off boats in the ocean wearing this thing. Right. There's nothing like, like diving into the ocean or a pool wearing a kind of vintage gold sports watch. To me, it's nirvana. I just don't know what it is. It just turns me on. Right. So. And I basically traded out of that watch about a clapman. Really wanted it, really wants it, really wanted it. So I took a bunch of his stuff in a swap that I quite liked as well. And I guess that was around just shy of a couple of million quid.

Wow.

And there's one coming up. There's one coming up in auction estimated at Sotheby's between two and four million dollars. Now. Now the stuff that. So one of the parts of the trade, by the way, was this here.

The emerald Daytona, which is now 3 million plus.

So I think I've done all right.

Yeah, baby. So you said you can usually spot trends. What do you think's an upcoming trend that hasn't been seen yet?

I think that everything now has become so trendy with the small, discreet Cartier tanks, etc, that I think it wouldn't surprise. And by the way, I haven't got any here, but integral watches. Right. What's that? Integral watches, which are like brace watches that have a bracelet attached to them.

Okay.

Rather than having lugs. I haven't got one here.

Right.

But basically it's where the bracelet is soldered directly to the. To the watch. And it doesn't have lugs that stick out to hold the strap.

Yeah.

They have become quite hot lately. And I have. I did well on those. I got literally two bags, four of them sort of thing. So those done well, but I think they're gonna kind of like start to dip. I actually think, believe it or not, I think that big watches will come back in again soon because everything's gone so small, so discreet that I'm not so sure that like, you know, the original Offshores and like, that might not start to kind of like. So I think you've got to Kind of in a. To be. To kind of buck the trend today, I think, in a way, you got to kind of wear big. But this, the trick is, is to wear discerning big. So you don't look like the kind of Russian gangster that just hasn't ever caught up with times yet, you know? Yeah.

Do watches have capital gains tax?

No. If you're, if you're not a watch.

Trader, if you're a collector.

No, There's a very murky line there.

Is there? I mean, if you just own watches personally and it's not for a business, no tax, no capital gains tax.

But of course, what the tax don't do is give you a finite limit of how many you're allowed to own and then sell before you become a trader. Oh.

So if you're a private collector, but you turn around a lot of watches, they might call you a trader.

Sure, of course I would. Wouldn't you?

Well, no, I mean, even if I bought and sold 100 watches a year, I'll never be a trader. I'll always be a collector. I'm a property investor. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a podcast.

Listen, I'm with you, baby.

Oh, yeah. No, no, this is my job.

Yeah. But I think that, you know, if I were the tax office, I'd be going. Well, hang on. Okay. Not really.

Could you then. Is it about amount of watches or a value of watches?

It's about persuading the tax, I guess. I don't know, there's. I don't think there's any finite limit.

Right. Yeah. Because, you know, you can definitely wear 12 different types of watches for 12 different types of occasions, for sure.

And then you might get bored of it and.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Ah, okay. No capital gains tax. Can you buy a watch as a company asset?

I think, yeah. If you buy it as a collectible. Sure. If you buy it as a. I think you can as an investment. But I think. I think there's a. A murky rule there with regards to if you get use out of it.

Again, I think it's called benefit and kind.

There you go.

And duality of purpose.

You're asking. You're trying to trick me. You're asking me questions that you already know the answer to.

Yeah, that's what the police do. And my business partner does that to me as well. I'm not trying to trick you. You. You know more about this than try you.

I'm joking.

I know you are, but. Yeah, I think it's good that you made that point because I, I didn't know if I didn't know anything different. But yeah, as I understand if you, but you can buy it as a company asset like you might buy gold or silver or the stock market with your money but you can't wear it.

Correct.

Because then you've got benefit in kind.

Correct.

And then they want the, the, the income tax etc. Okay, great, great. Tom, I've really enjoyed this. Thanks for giving us all your time.

No problem.

Thanks for the chicken burger and the chicken wings. That was great. Thanks for showing us all the watches. I know you don't want me to say but everyone just take my word for it. There's millions of pounds of the watches here. Some real rare watches. So yeah, really appreciate one quick message. Yeah, sure.

Andrew.

Oh yes. Yeah.

Andrew, do me a favor, right. Stop worrying that after set shite buy something proper off me. Right.

Well I took a video for him. So this, this AP here, yeah. Is not aftermarket. It's not got. I'm iced out. It's. It's actually the original watch that is.

An original set Royal oak set with the most amount of stones any royal oak has ever been set with a signed letter from me then the then CEO of ap. But it's not just the quantity of stones, it's the artisan way in which they're cut and they're set it because it's vintage. Just stunning.

That, I mean that's Andrew's watch, isn't it?

I didn't fly it out.

You man, Tom. Thank you very much.

Take care, Sam.