The Truth About Seven Figures w/ Dr. Lauryn B | The Arena Episode

What is up, Making Moves community? And welcome back to the arena where I help chiropractors make more money, reach more people, and change more lives. And today I have an awesome guest on the show that I'm excited to introduce. She's a chiropractor and 15-year clinic owner who built Blue Hills Chiropractic in rural Wisconsin into a 7-figure practice. She hit burnout at year 7, and she rebuilt her business to serve her life instead of consume it. Today she works about 10 hours a week, takes 12 weeks vacation a year, Hosts the She Slays the Day podcast and runs the brand new Rich Doc Lab coaching program and is on track to retire at 47. Gasp. With her husband and CFO Kirby. And she's the personal brand queen in healthcare. I believe I've been following her for a long time and self-proclaimed recovering alpha male. That'll take some explanation. Dr. Lauren Brunzlick, welcome to the show.

You nailed that, Claude nailed that. Did you ask Claude how to pronounce my last name too, or did you have to do that?

No, I knew, I knew how to pronounce your last name. I, I, uh, I joined one of your, one of your, uh, workshops, 4-day workshops. And so I heard you pronounce it the first time and it stuck. But I, you know, I actually edited some of that, so I have a little bit of credit. I had some influence. I'm impressed.

I'm officially impressed.

Thank you. I'm glad we got off, uh, on the right foot.

Yep. All accurate. All accurate information.

Cool. Very cool. Well, um, you know, I'd love to start with some of your story because this is a podcast for chiropractors, and I know that right now you do help, uh, a wide variety of healthcare practitioners. You're not just chiropractic exclusive, correct?

Correct.

Yeah.

I would say more clinic owners.

Clinic owners. Perfect.

Yeah.

Um, but you're a chiropractor and sounds like based on my Claude assessment of your website, uh, that you started practicing in 2010. Is that correct? Is that when you graduated? Yep.

Graduated in 2010 from Northwestern. Uh, do not hold that against me. I honestly, going into chiro school, you know, I'm from Wisconsin and I mean, nobody told me that there was all this like shit in chiropractic that you had to decide between. Like, I was like, okay, so you pick a school based on geography. And I had an option in Minneapolis and an option in Iowa and who in their right mind would go to Iowa over Minneapolis? And so that is how I ended up at Northwestern. And it wasn't until maybe 3 years after graduation that I started to realize that there, there's a lot of options and there's a lot that goes, that's supposed to go into your choice of school and what you want outta your career and all that. But yep, that's where I'm from.

That, that's better than me. I'm, I'm from Texas and I grew up in Texas. I left, I was in the military for a while, but I came back and when I went to chiropractic school, I went to Parker in Dallas and I didn't know that there were other chiropractic schools. I mean, obviously like I did, but it was like Parker was the only choice there was to make because it was in Dallas. So same boat. Um, decent school. Parker's decent, but I think things are changing pretty quickly. But, um, take me back to that. Take me back to that like 2010 version of you whenever you started practice. Um, what did you think that success was going to look like in practice at that point?

So I knew that I wanted to start my own practice. I knew that I would be a terrible associate because I, uh, I was 24 and I already knew everything. So, you know, uh, naturally I needed to start my own practice. And we were originally, my husband and I were going to originally build it in Minneapolis. He is in corporate background. He was gonna climb the corporate ladder and I was gonna start a practice. And then we, you know, said like, we'll, we'll live in Minneapolis and then maybe like in our 50s we'll retire early to like the small town type of thing and have that more like wholesome retirement.

Mm-hmm.

And I remember it was like 2 months before graduation and I'm at the Culver's like 3 blocks away from there. And my friend goes, now remind me again why you're not moving to his hometown? And I was like, well, I don't really know actually. And so I'm like walking to my car and I call him and I'm like, hey, so like, what if we just moved to your hometown? Now his hometown is 9,000 people.

Hmm.

And that is the big town. So it's not like 9,000 as like a suburb of like a town that's 300. Like, no, no, no, no, no. It's like all my small town folks will get, we are the town with the Walmart. Okay? So other towns, other smaller towns come to us. And so he was like, should we? And I'm like, let's do it. And so doing some research, there were no pediatric clinics. around, and I was really in love with this even tinier town of 2,500 people, and they had just the cutest little Main Street, and I'm like, that's where I'll start. And so, I started originally all insurance. I mean, not all, you know, probably like 80%. I was the type of doc where it was, if somebody, new patient called, and they're like, do you take this insurance? I'm like, not yet, but give me their number and a month, and I will join for you. And we just really steadily grew, really, really steadily grew. Heavy pediatric background, but we grew to about 300 a week in the first 3 years about. And, but that was, you asked like, what was success originally? I, it's really, I, my husband, you Kirby better remember this. He's like over here in my like editing suite, but like 24-year-old Lauren wanted to have babies.

Mm-hmm.

I just wanted babies and a clinic that saw like 100 people week and we were just gonna live this like great little life. But then as I was like, you know, $75,000, $90,000 a week, I'm like, well, $100,000 is definitely not enough. Like just for my ADHD and like style, not even necessarily from the money standpoint. So I was like, $250,000, $250,000, I'm good. I could never need to see more than $250,000. And then I got to $300,000 and I was like, listen, $600,000, final offer. That's my last. I do not want that.

Stretching the goalpost.

Yep. Yep. And then, like, to long story short, we got to 700 and I was like, I hate this. I hate this. And it was one of our least profitable years. That's the burnout part of, of things. And I was like, okay. And we just had to kind of rebuild from there a more profitable structure. But like, and somewhere along the lines, it was just like, I realized that was my personality. Like, I don't feel like I came into chiropractic being like, I'm going to go to 7 figures and then I'm going to start another business and do 7 figures and then I'm going to have a real real estate portfolio and I'm gonna do this all before 47. It was like, I have some kids. Yep. Rock a practice, live a life. And then I just got bored.

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Mm-hmm.

Um, well, so, Question, and then I wanna get into the, uh, I wanna get into the burnout stuff cuz I think that's, that's juicy. Um, but like you had, you hit $700,000 a week. Were you at 7 figures? Did you have a million-dollar practice?

Yep.

Okay.

So, it took about that. It took about that to get there.

Yeah. Cuz your OVA was so low, I'm sure, in a pediatric practice.

Yeah.

Oh, I know.

The, the burnout. Oh, I mean, 11 employees.

Yeah.

3 locations. Like, yeah, it, it, uh, Yeah, that's true. That was what you're supposed to do.

Yeah. And so, you know, I find it interesting now, and even a lot of like the chiropractic coaching groups and chiropractic coaches and, you know, um, chiro influencers, you know, they always use like the 7-figure hooks, um, in a lot of their content. It's like 7 figures for some reason seems to be like the top of the mountaintop. You know, it's like, that's the goal. Like if you can build a 7-figure practice in chiropractic, like you've made it, but you built a 7-figure practice.

Mm-hmm.

And I guess I just want you to, uh, kind of give some imagery on like what that seems to be like this huge accomplishment until you get there. And then you realize like all of the inner workings and maybe some of the stress and the chaos involved and the pressure involved. Like, what did it feel like on the inside of a 7-figure practice versus what you thought that would be in achieving it whenever you set out that aspirational goal?

Okay. So I wanna unpack quite a few things. So like, first of all, why do we have this obsession with 7 figures? That, that's, that's just a normal societal thing, right? Like if we go back to what $100,000 would've gotten you in like the '90s, it is exponentially more than $100,000 will get you now. So like, we just subconsciously know that 6 figures ain't gonna cut it.

Yeah.

And so we don't tend to do the nuance of like, okay, $100K is not enough. is like 400. Like, we don't do that. We're just like, 6 figures, not enough. 7 figures, 7 figures. And then you've got all these like alpha, like ads and being like, 7 figures, bro, like 10X it and things like that. So, it's just an easy thing. And where that number comes from, nobody ever like, you're like, well, tell me, how did you come up with 7 figures? Breaks it down. It's like, 'cause it's just a super clear base camp. Like, here I am. That will. And so, what you think is 7 figures is going to give you, or at least what I think, and I think a lot of people, when I start to dive dissect, like, why that number? It's, they think that that is where they're going to feel peace.

Mm-hmm.

That's where they're gonna feel financial security. That's where they're going to be able to take a breath and feel free. Like they can actually just go like, okay, I did it. Now, in addition to that, I think that's mo— the most common one. We do have another layer there where 7 figures equals success. And if you are a good doctor, you should be successful. So, like, I do think there's this second layer that's very tightly interwoven where what does 7 figures mean? It means I'm, I'm a good doctor. It means I'm good at this. And if I can't make money doing this, then I am—

Yeah.

bad, and what does that say about me as a chiropractor? Because we want to be good at our craft. And so, like, society has just said, like, well, if you're good at something, then people should pay you for it.

Yeah.

And so I think that that's what you think. That's what we think is going to arrive. We're going to get there and we're gonna be like, oh my gosh, I can redo my kitchen if I want to. I can take the kids to Disney. I can pay off my loans. I can go to Costco. I cannot worry about what the gas price is doing, I can be retired, I can be putting towards my retirement, and I'll feel good. Like, I'll be able to go to seminars and feel like I'm good at this, right? And so that's what you think is going to happen, but the reality— and now this is not everybody's reality because none of us have backgrounds in small businesses. That's kind of the nature is most of us were taking biology instead of— You know, business classes in our undergrad, but there are lots of different business models. So, there are some people who get to $1 million on a great business model. I was not one of them.

Mm-hmm.

You know, there are lots of ways, you know, essentially just to put some simple math to it, you can see a million people for a dollar or one person for a million, right? And then everything in between. And I think we were really going for that million people at a dollar apiece route. Not literally, but kinda, you know? And I think that that is actually glorified a lot more, or at least it was 10 years ago. I like to think that there's a lot of voices that are starting to change that narrative and stuff like that. But so when we got there, it was— we were the biggest. We were having the most impact in our community. We were touching and saving the most lives. And my doctors thought we were Uh, assholes who were not paying them enough. We were taking advantage of them. Our staff was turning over because they could make an extra $5 an hour somewhere else. They loved the, like, they were burnt out. Um, things where we weren't profitable. So we went like, okay. So up until this point, all I had done is double, right? So I wanted to see 100 people. That's not enough. Well, it's 200. Oh, $200,000 is not enough? Well, there's $400,000. And so up until this point, we had gotten to $1 million on just multiplying and not actually scaling. And so when I sat there and I was like, shit, I am not financially secure. I am exhausted. I'm not making as much money as I want to. I would love to make 2 to 3 times this. And all my head knew how to do was to 2 to 3x. what I was already doing.

Mm-hmm.

With 11 employees and 3 clinics and 700 people. And so I was like, so if I wanna make 3 times what I'm bringing home now, I need to have like 9 to 10 clinics and 25 to 30 employees. Fuck that. I do not like people that much. And so that was kind of the unraveling of like, Back to the drawing board. This is not gonna work. I am not gonna work this hard for this amount of money, and I'm not gonna keep this situation scaling. Um, why is it not showing the camera?

I think there's a lot there. I was trying to like, it's kind of hard. I was trying to like bookmark things in my brain that I wanted to expand on. But I would say first off, you were talking about like glorification of that like high volume practice model. Traditional state, straight chiropractic, super old school, high volume model, pinnacle model type thing. But I also see that glorified a lot more so in my circle, in the pediatric circle. And so I'm excited to dig into that.

You could definitely say that, but that's because you want to serve families, right? And so I think that's what happened is like, it's, you switch from, it's not just I want Emily to be able to afford care.

Yeah.

It's, I need Emily to be able to afford care for all 4 of her children. And Emily is a stay-at-home mom because she has 4 kids and she's homeschooling. Like, our ideal avatar is like this homeschooling mom that has all these kids and values health. And then we go, But I need her to be able to afford it. And I was like, well, you should pick an executive as your ideal partner.

Right? Yeah. A high-performing CEO.

Right.

Um, yeah, no, it's really hard because like you want to make it affordable, you want to make it accessible, but you also have to run a business and you have to run a profitable business. And like you said, like you have to be able to take care of your associates and your staff members. Um, so no, I think there's just a lot behind the curtain that most people, most clinic owners aren't willing to share. And so I'm I'm excited there's voices like you. I mean, there's a lot, especially I would say like female, so many like powerful female chiropractors now that are speaking out against that model and that are trying to reshape people's money model inside of their brain, you know, shining more light on that. And I think that, that especially the powerhouse females, you and a few others that both of us know really well, are starting to bring a lot of those pediatrics into their coaching group, like pediatric practices into their coaching group. And so I'm hoping that they're starting to, I don't know if like reform what it looks like to practice pediatric or nervous system-based chiropractic, but I'm hoping so because those people deserve to make more money than any chiropractor.

I agree. But like, I do think that part of what will need to happen is we need to remove a lot of the boxes.

Mm-hmm.

That are put around what it means to be a pediatric doc. So if we're saying like, you are in pediatrics, okay, so some of the boxes that we put around them, well, you have to be cash, right? Because, ugh, if you're— if you take insurance, like, are you really a pediatric, like, right? So we subconsciously are putting that to it. So it's not enough That I did a 7-figure clinic. It's that I did a 7-figure cash clinic. So I call these like Girl Scout badges within chiropractic, and boys get 'em too. So I think that like step one of being like, you know what, you can call yourself a pediatric practice and you can take insurance if you want to. Now, I don't, for different reasons, but like, I think we need to disassociate all of these cling-on things that are like, if you're going to call yourself a real pediatric practice, like not having therapies. And being like straight, like, are you, can we, are you allowed to call yourself a pediatric practice if you have laser? I mean, my 10-year-old jammed her finger really bad in softball, may or may not be broken, not sure. And I did laser on it yesterday.

Yeah.

And it was just this moment of like, yeah, look at that, me using a therapy on a child. Like, that's okay, you know? And so there's multiple different layers to this that It's not just about, yeah, you can make money and be a pediatric practitioner. It's like, you can make money, you can work as many hours as you want, but you can do it lots of different ways and not worry about being kicked out to the curb from some of the more cultish things within pediatric.

I love that. I love that. 'Cause I, yeah, I mean, a few people come to mind that are on my Instagram feed quite often and One of them and I fight all the time on Instagram.

I have people being like, sending me screenshots.

Probably the person that I'm thinking of.

I am here for the comments.

Oh yeah. I mean, it's, it's really challenging because like they even talk like they, they just are so condescending about adding modalities and adding different services.

We've been doing that for decades.

Layering care plans.

We've been doing that. That is not a brand new thing that anybody is like, that was learned behavior.

Yeah.

From before. And I do think that anytime— so first of all, chiropractic is not unique. You talk to dentists and they've got inner fighting. You talk to any— I mean, I was talking to an ophthalmologist and I said like, well, the weird thing about chiropractic, and he was like, oh no, we have that too. Like, no, we have that. And we're like, what? So we think we're special that like we've got this like weird war, but it's in PT, it's in all that. And it's not new. It's been— that type of thing has been spoken from stages for decades and decades.

Yeah.

It's just being able to, when you are finally given a stage, to look like the asshole that's going against the culture. Because I was on a— I was on the ICPA stage a couple months ago on a business and success panel. And there are questions, and there's the soundbite that you know the audience is used to getting, and they kind of need to know that. It's like the caveat answer of, how do you make sure that you're having an impact? And it's like, well, thinking about your community. It's like the very nice things that we say from stage.

Mm-hmm.

And I just would sit on that panel, and I was like, I mean, for me, impact, I think selfishly first of like, I need to stay in business, so I can't continue to have an impact if I'm not first thinking about, like, do I not get to have an impact on my financial life? What about my children? Like, can I think about my children's life before I worry about the impact that I'm having in community? What about my employees? And that they're— I'm responsible for putting food on their table.

Yeah.

But like within healthcare, it's always like, oh, patient first. And again, this is in all forms of healthcare, like, We just suffer with this martyrdom thing. And anybody who starts to speak against it, it can be considered really tacky. And so not to dog on anybody who, uh, has continued to, to say some of the more safe stuff that's been like said and said and said, uh, the soundbites from stage, because it does take a very like, actually hold the record. I'm gonna say something real different. And I might get, I might get canceled here. I might get canceled, but I'm selfish and I wanna make money. I'm gonna say something.

Yeah. I mean, I always think about like, you're a nervous system-based chiropractor. What about your nervous system? Like, one thing that Dr. Steven Franson always says is like, people don't lie awake at night worried about their practice. They lie awake at night worried about their business. And I can tell you that I've— I'm about to ask you about burnout. I've experienced very close to an extreme amount of burnout and emotional and mental crisis. And the reason why was because I didn't know how I was going to put food on the table or pay my rent or pay my employees the next month. It wasn't because I was only seeing, you know, 167 people a week and I wanted to see 300. I wanted to make a larger impact on my community and I wasn't quite there yet. It was like I didn't have the financial resources to know whether or not I was going to be in business next month, much less 5 years from now. That's good.

Burnout is actually one of my favorite new topics to talk about recently because—

Let's talk about that. So let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question first, 'cause I kind of want it to be specific. Um, okay. So like, based on what I read, you, you said that you kind of got to this point where you were resenting the, the very thing that you'd worked so hard to build, which was your practice. And so can you tell me of, first off, we'll, we'll get into like the general topic of burnout, but like, Can you tell me of like the epiphany moment or the, like the realization moment that you hit where you were finally like, something has to change? Like what, what was that? And what did that feel like?

Well, that was the multiplying. That was the multiplying, right? Where it was that moment. And again, like that, this is very like stage memory of like, and then I cried in my car. I, there wasn't, I can't remember the exact moment, but like it was realizing shit. So if I wanna make more, I have to double or triple what I'm already doing. And I was like, I cannot. I cannot, I don't have it, right? It's like when you're on the 11th mile of a half marathon and you're looking at your watch and you're like, so if I wanna make my time record, I need to run the last 2 miles at 4 minutes. Not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. And so that was the thing. Now, Hmm. I interviewed someone like 2 years ago on a burnout expert, right? And she said that one of the emotions that starts to show up for burnout is resentment and cynicism.

Hmm.

And that really, really hit. And the resentment is the piece. Like, when I look back, so like, I call it, I call it, I've always called it burnout because like we as a general, but like, I'm starting to try and elaborate language more as a coach. I'm starting to feel a little more responsibility around like, was it burnout? Or was it exhaustion and resentment? Because like, we have used this phrase burnout as a marketing, like really that, like, let's just call a spade a spade. A lot of us coaches have been like, build a practice without burnout. And then like, we can be from stage, like, I was burnt out and now I'm not. Trust me. I know. Like, and it's like, is that real? Like, I don't actually think it's realistic.

Yeah.

I think that a lot of us, we wouldn't be to the level of success we were if we wouldn't have hustled our asses off. And so looking now, it's like, all right, for the last 5, we'll say like heavy the last 5 years, burnout, burnout, burnout, burnout, burnout, right? Well, now we see Gen Z coming in and they have just watched us millennials. Bitch and moan about being burnt out. And I'm not saying we're not exhausted. I'm not saying that we are not broke as hell and that this is not sustainable, but we've all been using this like word and made it like this really, really terrible thing that you should avoid at all costs. But you know where some of my biggest energy to make huge pivots and change in my practice have come from? My lows, which you could call burnout moments. Like otherwise, without being in a place of waking up at 3 in the morning and being like, this isn't working, I need to do something different. Human beings are very comfortable at staying comfortable. So if you're not, if you're sleeping through the night, you are not likely gonna be like, you know what? I think I should fuck shit up in my clinic. Let's go outta network. Let's do it just for fun. Everything's totally fine, but let's make this big change anyways. That wouldn't happen.

Yeah.

And so we see Gen Z now in general observing like we did to the previous generation, right? We were like, I'm not missing my kids' like dinner every night. Like I'm gonna build a practice that allows me to also be a good parent. And so they're watching us and all we've done is talk about burnout and they're like, okay, so you worked really hard and you burnt out. That's, I don't wanna do that. And so as a coach, I'm going like, shit. No, you have to work hard. Otherwise, you're just gonna burn out from a different reason because you will burn out if you're not making money. Like you said, like, that's also stressful. That's extremely stressful. So you either work hard and attempt to make money, or you just say, I'm not playing the game at all. And then you're guaranteed not to make money. And guess what? You're gonna burn out there too. And so I just think that we really, I don't have necessarily a solution, but I've just seen like.

Yeah.

We got to be careful in our messaging because the kids are watching, the children are watching. And like, we have made this like, no, you can create this life without working your ass off and avoid burnout altogether. And it's like, I don't think you can.

Yeah. I mean, I, I get hit with that a lot because I would say that I'm certainly more of like alpha male MO, you know, like I talk a lot about grinding. I talk a lot about hard work. I talk a lot about determination. Um, and you know, I get hit with a lot of like anti-hustle culture, uh, where people just like push up against that. They're like, no, we can live a life that means—

So that's the thing is I have become in the last 6 months anti-anti-hustle culture.

Oh, that's good. Me too. That's, that's me.

Yeah. So that's where it's like, for a while we were just like, oh, anti-hustle. Like, you know, it was like the, um, anti- male thing, you know, where it's just like that pendulum swings. And so it's like, that's bad. So then, and so now it's just kind of like, you know what? I think we kind of threw hustle out with the baby in the bathwater.

Yes, exactly.

Maybe we pick what, how to like turn it into a more 2026 conversation.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I built all of my success brick by brick from zero, you know? And the only way that I was able to do that was through hard work. And every person that I know that is where they wanna be, has done it through hard work. And so it's funny because like, I feel like the people who are anti-hustle culture typically—

They're selling something.

They're selling. Yeah, absolutely. They're selling something 100%. But then you get—

I mean, aren't we all?

Then you get them in their like authentic storytelling place where they're like talking about the entire journey of entrepreneurship. And the only thing that they talk about is how hard that they actually worked and all the scars that they have that they now wear like medals. You know, and it's like, well, you're selling something different over here, but you're saying something different over here. And it's always been incongruent for me. So I'm like, I'm just going to stay authentic and just try to keep the frame that like, you know, hard work is what built this for sure.

Yeah.

One thing that I have noticed though in chiropractic is that a lot, and I would see, I see it a lot as clinic owners who like hang it up, close down the office. And I find it interesting that you said resentment because now, That does put kind of a label onto something that I had been observing, but like people do start to feel a lot of resentment towards chiropractic and towards like this profession in general.

It did us dirty.

Did us dirty. Yeah.

I mean, healthcare in general is doing, again, this is not a chiropractic specific thing.

Phenomena.

Healthcare of all kinds did a lot of people dirty, you know? And so it is that like this, Isn't what I thought I signed up for.

Exactly. But a lot of people are hanging it up and they're becoming real estate agents or, you know, Yep.

Real estate agents. Damn, there is good money in real estate.

Yeah, it's so true. Like, but it's like they, they, they hit that wall of like resentment and cynicism and instead of deciding to push, they decide to pivot. And it's just like, you know what? Chiropractic did me dirty. Like there, there's no opportunity here for me to make it out. There's no opportunity for, for me to build like, legacy or long-term freedom or optionality for my family. So like, I just need to go do that thing because the pasture's always greener. And so like, why are we running up against that? And the fact that we are now, like, how do we instill a little bit more like discipline or a little bit more, maybe disclose or reveal some better opportunity for them to maybe not like do a full 180-degree pivot, but like a slight pivot in trajectory, which is what you did.

Like, oh, you are hitting on like, literally. So I was on a podcast a couple months ago and they asked, if you could eradicate one thing from the world, what would it be? Assuming like poverty and all that stuff is already taken care of. And I said, regret of going into healthcare.

Hmm.

Like, it is my, like, when I sit and I go, all right, let's pretend that God gave me a very, very specific purpose. What do I think it is? It is to keep Healthcare providers in healthcare. I think we have a whole issue coming down the road. We're already seeing it in like school enrollment and all of that. But there is a way, you're right, people feel like they either need to double down, but they're exhausted usually by the time they're having this internal dialogue. And you do, you look at like some of these other businesses and you're like, you're paying what an hour? And you're like calculating and you're like, that's not bad. You know? So I think that— One of— that is like my number one mission is to help people figure out how to stay in healthcare. But we have to realize that it's going to look very, very different. And you have to be okay with not being able to be put into a box. You may not be the person that everybody thinks of when you're the pediatric chiropractor or you're the this chiropractor or whatever. But none of it really matters. You know, so for me— Starting a personal brand. So that I had no intention of starting a personal brand. It wasn't like in 2019, I was like, I'm gonna do this. Uh, I was bored. And so that's another thing is I think a lot of people who feel like they're burning out, a lot of us are not designed— if you're a good entrepreneur, you are not going to be good at monotony. So it's this like double-edged sword where if you're not a good entrepreneur, You're probably not building a great practice. Maybe you are, but if you are a great entrepreneur and you're building a great practice, it's also unfulfilling because you're like, well, I'm bored. Like I figured it out. Like I type of thing. Yeah.

I need problems to solve.

You're damned if you're good, damned if you're bad.

Mm-hmm.

And so for me it was like, this is kind of boring and I needed a release of just like my creativity. And so I started the podcast with Just for pediatric chiros to talk about the problems and solutions of running a practice and trying to like, just kind of trying to find that happy life. And then it kind of just took off from there. And so then as I, this kind of coincides, so that was 2019.

Mm-hmm.

2021 was when like the big epiphany of like, this is not working, we need to rescratch it. And so these timelines were really overlapping with each other. We're in real time on the podcast. You know, I'm talking about like, this isn't sustainable. I don't, you know, and interviewing people and being like, yeah, but what about this? Um, and like, how do I solve this? And like taking these, all these coaches off their, their like talking points. And I'd be like, yeah, but, but what about real life type thing? And so once we kind of got on the other side, once we got the systems, once we got the profitability and the podcast was still there, the personal brand was still there. And I was able to go like, I'm gonna work. 3 shifts a week.

Mm-hmm.

I love my 3 shifts a week. I love it. I love seeing patients again. I love my clinic and I love my team. And so, to be from where I was and to know I have the skills that I could have exited and gone and done anything. You know, personal brand makes 3 to 4 times what the clinic does because of the profit margin, you know? So, it's like, yes, there are easier ways to make money, right? But I really love seeing patients. Like, that's still a part of me. And I'm so thankful for being able to analyze, like, take kind of that bird's-eye view of the situation and make those changes to make a clinic that made me happy. You know, we, like, we put this like on pillows and all sorts of stuff of like, create a clinic that supports you versus the other way around. And you're like, what does that actually mean? It's like, oh, I can tell you what it means. I lived that.

Yeah, no, that's, that's good. So like, just to get tactical here, whenever we draw the line between like trading time for money and building leveraged income, right? Buzzword, buzzword, buzz phrase, buzz phrase.

Yeah.

But like, how do we actually, how do we actually put language to that? And then how do we actually put like action steps to that for a provider who has been conditioned and programmed to only know and believe like the see patients get paid model? You know, how do we, how do we help communicate to them that there are other Um, additional opportunities for you to actually diversify your income so that you can be fulfilled in both ways? Like, how are you helping people bridge that gap now?

So there's 3 very core steps to this. Step 1 is creating more cash flow from your clinic. Now, this doesn't mean that you need to make more money. Like, there are lots of ways in which you can create more cash flow, but because I am a chiropractor and I've come a long way, for those that don't understand what I mean, cash flow is the money that's left in the account after you've paid yourself, you've paid taxes, you've paid everything. And some people are like, what is this money left in the account you speak of? Like, that is cash flow. Okay. So step one—

You do not know that of what you speak of.

What is this word? So step one is Having cash flow. Your clinic is the number, like the easiest lever that you can do. I'll have people come and they're like, I need to make more money. I wanna start a personal brand. I need, I wanna monetize online. I'm like, do you know how hard it is to make $20K online? Like, it is so much easier to make an extra $20K in your clinic. So like, step 1, have cash flow. Now step 2. Is don't spend all your cash flow. You have to be intentional about what you're doing with it. And this doesn't mean, uh, you know, my husband would be a lot more intentional with our cash flow than I am. Like, you know, this means figuring out the difference between investing later and living now. And for every single person, that's gonna be extremely different.

Mm-hmm.

But you need to have a conversation about it. Interesting thing about working with doctors is how much ego we carry in this like chip on our shoulder. And so, the second we start making money, we are spending it, we are upgrading, we're doing this. And, you know, that's— I'm not saying that you shouldn't spend it.

For status?

Status. Yeah. Right? Like, it's that affirming that we made a good choice.

Yeah.

Like, because that's the, that's the unsaid promise back when we were talking to our like high school careers counselor or getting adjusted by our hometown chiropractor. That was the unsaid promise in healthcare. Devote your life to serving people, and you'll be taken care of.

Yeah.

Okay? And like, everybody loves their doctor. Like, there's honor around, like, oh, you know, so we all have, we tend to have it, some of us a lot more than others, but like, in some form. And so, once you have the cash flow, then being incredibly intentional Around what you're doing with it. Now, some people can stop at step 2. I found that that was stressful. All of my eggs were in the basket, right? At this point, my husband had left corporate. He was helping run HR and marketing and finance and all of that for the clinic. And if we had a down quarter, I was waking up at night, right?

Mm-hmm.

You'd be amazed at how many people are living paycheck to paycheck and they're still bringing home $300K. Like, you can live paycheck to paycheck that way for sure. Like, you can, and a lot do. And so, all, so that's where we then started to get even more intentional around like diversifying. Now, the type of people that I work with, we talk a lot about diversifying in real estate.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but the other, Big way that we talk about diversifying is in having an impact online. That's just because a lot of the people we want to have, we don't want to like leave healthcare altogether. We don't want to work 10 hours a week and then sit on our butts the other 30 and do nothing. We want to have options and freedom, and we want to still have an impact. And so like, a lot of those things when you put 'em together, it's like, okay, so you want to be able to go to Costa Rica with your kids and like, but still be making money while you're there if you want to. And you wanna still be putting your impact, even when you're not in the clinic at 9:00 AM on Monday, you wanna have an impact with your knowledge and expertise. And they're like, yeah. I'm like, all right, well, it's a personal brand. That, that's what you want. Now, not everybody, some people are like, no, I want to diversify by going heavily into this one investment route. Cool. Good for them. Like, we definitely build a real estate portfolio because I think you'd be crazy not to. Um, but that's kind of specifically who I work with is like, all right, cash flow, investing, get your state in order. And now how do we diversify? How do we create extra streams? Because when you have those extra streams of revenue, then all of a sudden, guess what? You have a bad quarter and you're not right back there resenting your clinic. It's like, ah, Mm-hmm. Shucks.

Yeah.

Bummer. We didn't meet our new patient goal. That's okay. Like, I am not waking up at 3:00 AM because I'm worried about it. Do I have to lay someone off? Like, it'll be fine. And that's a really peaceful way to run a clinic of like ups, downs, it's fine.

And you become a better leader that way as well. Um, one question I have. So one of the things that I've seen Again, I'm, I am a coach in the chiropractic space, very niche down just for meta ads. But it seems like because people are, that is starting to become more in vogue, it's becoming more popular, right? Diversifying through online or internet money. But what I see is that all these chiropractors are coming outta the woodworks and because they have a microphone in front of their face, they're automatically a coach or a consultant, you know, for other chiropractors.

Mm-hmm.

And their clinic's doing 40, $50,000 a month with very low profit margins. So how do you see practitioners make money online and still make an impact in healthcare without becoming one of the other chiropractic coaches that are inundating people's Instagram feeds?

I don't know. I think I like a free market. I think like, bring them on. They won't last. If you don't Like, give everybody a microphone. Let's go. Like, let's do it. I know how, you know how hard it is to coach.

It's hard. Yeah. Like really freaking hard.

If you, like, you need a hell of a lot more than a slogan and a microphone. So, I mean, I've seen multiple people take a stab at it and the, to be seen, to create the personal brand around it, to deliver the goods, to answer the questions, to really create that community. And consistently be there, that's, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And so I would say, I don't know, let's free market this. Give every single person who wants to, to say they're a coach, a coach. And I also think there's enough struggling people out there that like, you know, the classic, like your oncologist doesn't need to have cancer. Like, all right, so hopefully somebody running 5% profit margins isn't like hanging their entire shingle On like, I am great at profit margins, let me fix yours. But I don't know, who knows profit margins the best is somebody who's like sucked, looked at it and been like, well, that's wrong. You know, like you can still give really good advice. I think the thing is, is my metric isn't all only, are you good at—

Achievement.

Achievement. How good are you at constantly learning, taking principles, Applying them in real time, pivoting, and being able to communicate, to be able to talk to somebody and assess. Like, you might be incredible at diagnosing somebody else's problem, and it's a do as I say, not as I do. Like, I mean, we've got a lot of healthcare providers out there, like, what, you can't be a chiropractor if you're fat? Like, you can't be a chiropractor if you have back pain? And so, it's like, I agree, I get the sentiment, I get the sentiment that, like, I don't want a bunch of losers pretending pretending they're awesome. Um, but I think we're all losers in some way. Like, there are, I'm sure, I'm sure God is like looking at my coaching program being like, really? Like, imposter syndrome shows up in all of us in some way.

Sure.

So, I would say like, um, I think that I would give everybody a microphone and then I would spend an hour with everybody trying to help them find their unique niche where they are successful. And how they can have an impact in coaching.

Yeah. And I guess my question, I totally understand their perspective and I have to check myself on that all the time because I see somebody else show up and I, I roll. I'm like, ah, here we go. You know, cuz I know already this.

And they might be picking the wrong niche cuz that's all they've seen is like, I help practice grow.

They're just emulating. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So yeah, my, my question was more so like, you know, let's say they're, um, not equipped with the skillset to go B2B. And so like, how do you encourage practitioners who want to diversify their income by branching into online that maybe you're more equipped to go B2C? Like, how do you see that? How do you see that working? Like, what does that look like?

Well, so I think everybody's gotta find their niche. Okay. So like, this is the thing is you're what I think to kind of like take what you're saying and what I was saying. is like, all right, they see there's money to be made online and they're emulating all the chiropractors I see that are making money online are coaching because duh, that's how Meta ads work, right? Like, I'm a struggling chiropractor. And so, all they see are chiropractors making money coaching.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I can run through a couple different examples of just chiros that I have done a niche conversation with. They're looking to monetize online. Um, one of, and they all come like, I'm gonna help. They all come with the same, the same niche. And I go, that's boring. That, I hate it. And so it's figuring out like what's unique in their story. So like one chiro, we're working on her monetization path to help break down the data from wearables, specifically the Oura Ring, to women. Mm-hmm. Right? She's a chiropractor and she knows HRV. And it's like, and so, you know, originally that wasn't the thing, but then when we would like work and find like, no, no, no, let's find that very specific thing that you are not gonna live every day with imposter syndrome. Because that's why I say like, yeah, give 'em all because you can only, if you are inauthentically coaching, you know that, and you can only live with that imposter syndrome for so long before you just stop showing up. And so it's like everybody's got something.

Hmm.

That is magic about their story and their expertise. You just have to find it. I have another one, another chiro who has built a whole continuing education course around body positivity, like just how we can remove fat bias as chiropractors and like give larger bodies proper doctoring without always going to. And so, she's like getting continuing ed credit or like applying for continuing ed, and she's monetizing. She's getting asked to speak on stages. And so, like, that's really cool. She didn't go like, hey, I'm this. Like, she found that one thing. And so, there's this light bulb that clicks when I'm working with someone because—

Yeah.

That they're just like, I don't know, this is what I want to do. And I was like, that's, that's not lighting you up. Because that's the important part is if you're burnt out in practice, and you're just kind of copy and pasting online, you're gonna burn out online too. Like you have to find the passion piece online or else you won't make it there either.

That's so good. First off, this right here shows the value of experience in coaching because that's incredible. Like your ability to, um, be able to see the spectrum of deliverables? Because for me, in my experience, it's like, I don't have, I don't have that. I don't have that like filtration process to be able to take in information like that and be able to like, that, that's it. That's it. That's your thing. That's your thing. Go do that because that's what you're passionate about. That's where your expertise is, and this is how you can monetize it. So first off, that just speaks to your experience in working with practitioners to help them do this. So that's really freaking cool. And also, you know, I think that, that first off, anybody who's looking for any type of diversification of income online should absolutely go to, what's the program called?

Rich Doc Lab.

Rich Doc Lab. drlaurenb.com.

Yep. On drlaurenb.com.

Presale. Okay. So I'll put the, yeah, I'll put the link in the show notes so that people can go check that out. Because that was valuable for me just to like be able to understand how you process information and then you're able to apply it. And I think that's the difference between like really great coaches and people who are using Claude for confirmation bias that they have a product to sell. Because where I see a lot of this and the reason why I eye roll, to be candid, is that I know how hard it is to get clients results.

Mm-hmm.

And so from my standpoint, I'm like, okay, you have these people that are coming in that have gotten very mediocre, average to mediocre results in their own clinic, and then they put it all into AI and it formulates this thing that's really pretty and they put a bow on it and they call it a marketing system or whatever it is, and they put it out in the marketplace, and then some struggling chiropractor sees it and thinks that that's actually going to be the lever that they need to pull on. And then they come in, they buy this thing that's really pretty, that's wrapped really nicely, and it's not what they thought it was going to be. So they wasted money and they didn't get the results. And then that leads to— I understand it's a flash in the pan, so I understand the free market, and I understand that, like, let them give them— let them, let them have a shot, you know. But I just feel like it's kind of like how chiropractic is right now where we're in the crosshairs.

We've got a ton of broke, amazing chiropractors. That's the other thing though, is like, you can be a very mediocre chiropractor and have a waiting list and have no money problems. And you can be flying across the country and teaching your technique and struggling too. So, I mean, that's, that's the really hard part. And I am going to, You've worked with a lot of people. I guarantee you, you have somebody that you, that comes to mind that did your program and was like, meh, didn't get results. And you're like, listen, you didn't do the work. You didn't show up to the calls. You. And so that's what's hard too, is like, it, I've seen some mediocre programs meet amazing people and they're like, oh, I got so much results. And I'm like, you liked that program, huh?

Cool.

And they're like, oh yeah, I got the— and then I've had people bash talk and I was like, really? I've heard amazing things about that. And that's the thing is we put a lot of pressure on the coach. So I'm just, I'm just saying.

No, that's, this is a conversation, you know, it's, it's go— it's going both directions for sure. Yeah. So we can move on from the chiropractic coaching topic. Um, but I, that's good. I, I love, I love that, um, you know, you, you have The, the option. You have so much optionality of like what you can actually package. And that's what it all comes down to, you know, is like being able to package something and then being able to take it to market and then just letting the market decide. Which as a healthcare practitioner, like, you're right, like they've got a lot of education and nervous system. So help people interpret their wearables, which is like the most common thing on the marketplace right now, you know?

And I told her, I said like, go with— are you comfortable with just doing Oura Ring? Because I think Oura Ring will get way better SEO than wearables. And she's like, yeah. So like we even went like further.

Again, next level. That's super smart. Super smart. All right. So I gotta ask you this question. Okay. Um, 'cause I know it's your MO now and I've heard you laugh about it.

Am I making you mad as a guest?

I'm really sorry, Travis. No, you're not making me mad.

What?

I'm like going against like, yeah, but No, I, I, I love, that's why I, this is why I started the podcast. This is why I started this. You know, I, I started this to have conversations with people. Mm-hmm. Um, and when I started, when I, yeah, exactly. Real conversations. And when I started, I was like Switzerland, you know, I was like, I'm just gonna be neutral and like, you know, let the guest, uh, I don't know. I just, now I'm like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask different questions. And if they say things that, you know, are potentially controversial, like we're gonna dig into that. And I think that's interesting.

Totally. Okay.

Um, the retire by 47 thing.

Yeah.

We gotta talk about that. Okay. So I know I, I heard you talk about like, you just kind of like threw that out there one day and then you'd be like—

It wasn't out of nowhere. We're empty nesters at 47.

Okay.

So, okay.

Got it. Got it.

Got it.

Yeah.

So remember the story where I was in Culver's and I was like, should we move to your hometown? And that girl just wanted to like live this cute little like life. And then I realized that I'm actually pretty bougie. Uh-huh.

You like nice things.

So that kind of comes full circle to this. Good job. So we are gonna be empty nesters at 47.

Hmm.

And I do not regret raising my children. I wouldn't go back on any decision. They are growing up around both sets of grandparents. It is like small town life is pretty damn cool. Like it is really, really nice. It is making good humans. But I don't wanna live here forever. And once my kids are gone, so like right now it's fine that I'm required to be in my clinic 10 hours a week because my kids are required. We waited too long on the homeschool thing. Like we've got a freshman now and like, I was like, how do you feel about homeschooling? She's like, no, my friends. So anyway, so like, they're, they have to be September through June. They're 8 to 3 in a, you know, and then they've got summer jobs and all these sports. So my clinic's not the thing that is geographically confining me the most. It is my lovely, lovely children.

Children.

And so once they're gone, I'm like, well, fuck the clinic then. I don't need you. They're going off somewhere. And so that's why 47 is like—

Cool.

The last one's gone. And I've been asked before, like, retire, retire? And I was like, oh my God, I won't retire in heaven even. I'm gonna be like working on SOPs and things like that. But I don't want to be required to be seeing patients at a specific time in a specific location. And so, I'm retiring from healthcare. I don't really want to own my clinic anymore, to be honest. Like, I really want to— sell it and move on to a different stage of life. We're also working backwards as far as passive income.

Yeah.

Basically looking at like what we, like that actual, actual retirement and working backwards of like, okay, so how much passive income do we want at that stage? And like doing the math backwards and knowing like, all right, how many properties do we need to be buying and How much do we need to be investing and what kind of return do we need there?

Are these long-term rentals or are these short-term rentals?

All. Also, so commercial, long-term and short-term. And then next thing we're looking at is midterm actually, like more like for the hospital, for the doctors and nurses.

Yeah.

I'd really, really want to get in on a trailer park like so bad. If you need investing on a Park, please reach out to me. Or just like a multi-door unit. My ego wants to be a hotelier, but my, my like finance guy over there, he does not think I'm gonna like the profitability or the active requirements of being a hotelier. But I just wanted to add that.

Yeah.

So, so yeah, that's, that's the 47 thing is like, it's not out of nowhere. It's a very real, It's a very real date where it's like, okay, talk, clock's ticking.

Yeah. Next question.

Um, whenever you talk about— I'm 40 in 2 months. Oh.

You're what? How old are you? No, that wasn't my question, but thank you. So you're about to be 40?

Yep.

Okay. So you got 7 years.

Oh, I got so much time.

Plenty of time.

I know, a way to like call my shot a little far in advance, but who knew that it was gonna turn out to be like one of my iconic things that fi— people find really interesting? I'm like, I don't know why it's that interesting.

That's the only reason, only reason that I brought it up is because I heard you say that.

Yeah.

You're like, people ask me about this. So I was like, well, naturally I have to ask.

Yeah.

Because you said everybody asks.

They're curious.

I had to be one of everybody. Uh, but my question, um, I'm interested because I have thoughts about this. Whenever you decide to sell your practice, actually without giving any context on like what I think, um, how do you see that going?

Miserably. I mean, it's, I foresee it being painful. I foresee, so first of all, just like the process of finding the right person that you trust.

That's mainly what I think.

That happens to want to buy your clinic.

Yeah.

Like stars aligned.

Yeah.

Like when we, I don't, like when we look at selling the practice, We are just like, I'm gonna get this much. And most of us have not, like, we was like, where'd you pull that number from? Oh, your ass. Okay, great. Good, good, good, good.

You just come up, it's like a 7-figure thing, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

I want a 7-figure exit. It's like, well, do you know how much EBITDA you have to have and how much operationalized up, how it has to be operationalized in order for you to get multiples on the EBITDA?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it's like when we think about selling the practice, it's like, Like, somebody's going to come in who pays the amount we want. It's going to give us the— what's the opposite of launchpad? The decompression time, like the ramp down. Like, so for whatever person, like maybe that's, you know, a year for you, maybe it's 3 years, maybe it's 5 years. And then they're going to give you a check. Your patients are going to love them. They're going to take over your legacy. They're actually not even going to change the name of the clinic. It's still Smith Chiropractic because you were such a great chiropractor, right? And you get to ride off into the sunset. And I just go like, that's not gonna happen. There's no way I'm gonna get the right buyer at the wrong time. I'm gonna get the wrong buyer at the right time. I'm gonna get the right buyer at the right time for the wrong price. I have called myself cynical. I, uh, like to say I'm just pragmatic of just like, ugh, this is— Business is business. Like, how many times have you done business with someone and at the end you're both actually happy? Somebody feels like they got the short end of the stick. Like, I hope it's great. I'm, I'm, I've got 7 years to make it happen. Um, but I say that, but if the perfect person comes and offers me an amazing price a week from now, What am I supposed to do with that?

You're gonna take it.

Like, you know, right person, right price, wrong time. And so I just know, I just have a feeling that it's gonna be, and I've talked to a ton of docs who have sold their clinic and it's like, it's good, it's great, but it's really exhausting and mentally tiring. So I don't know. Yeah.

I hear Cody Sanchez talk about that a lot. And it's like in these scenarios, it's like my price, your terms, or my terms, your price.

Yeah.

It's kind of how it, what it comes down to. So my, it's interesting, you went a different direction than I think about it, but that's because I think you've thought about it maybe more than I have. But I'm thinking like private equity versus like passing the torch to the associates or the people that have like, because I just, I have a soft spot for the people that are loyal or that buy into helping me build my vision. I believe that Like, you know, in order to like truly scale something, you have to be a vi— you have to have a vision so large that like your associates or your team members' vision can fit inside of it. And so we have a lot of really loyal people that have been with us for a long time that have helped us.

Are you convinced private equity wouldn't take care of 'em?

You know, I'm not convinced 'cause I don't have enough experience with that, but I would love to just give the opportunity to the next generation, you know, As long as they were well equipped and they had the business acumen to be able to run the practice successfully and had the growth opportunity there, I'd love to be able to hand the torch to them. You know, even if I had to like owner finance or maybe I had to budge on the price a little bit just to make it doable.

Can I ask you a question?

Sure.

Okay, so let's say you have 2 buyers, private equity, it's giving you, we're just gonna call it $1 million. It's a fair evaluation and you've This cute little husband wife fresh out of school. They're going to give you a million dollars too. Private equity, the way they operate matches your SOPs. Very little change name. They're being able to like yep guarantee your people jobs. Da da da da da. These people have no idea, and they come in shadow. And the more you experience them, they've got a lot of heart. But boy, are they dumb! And they are going to. They are just like pies. the sky. Like they have no, and you can see it as an entrepreneur of like, you're gonna be great doctors, but I really worry if this clinic's gonna be open in 3 years.

Yep. Understood. All right. I see the dichotomy.

I don't know what I would do. I don't know what I would do. I'd probably go with, because what matters more, the opportunity giving somebody the opportunity to fail or the hundreds of patients? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I get that. I get that. So I guess that, that hasn't ever been in my awareness. My awareness was I have an associate that's been with me for 7+ years and, you know, they've exhibited all of the qualities of someone who can actually, you know, be organized enough and growth-minded enough and expansive enough, uh, to continue growing and running the practice successfully. Um, you know, whether I'd be willing to take a massive price cut To sell to that person and maybe like, you know, payout terms being slightly different versus private equity, which private equity is not sunshine and rainbows. A lot of times they have like a 5-year, like you said, off-ramp, which is where like—

You're working for them and you're an associate for 5 years. You better keep— oh yeah, you thought you were stressed about clinic numbers before? Ooh, you're gonna be stressed now because they expect you to maintain or improve. Yeah, no, I think the associate thing is a different, um, aspect where it is like, I think I'd rather lose a couple hundo and give it to an associate.

Yeah.

Than, than that in that scenario.

Yeah. Yeah. I just wonder if that's like, you know, predicament that a lot of chiropractors are in, but you have these PE firms, you do. Gosh, so much money now, especially with these roll-ups. Terms aren't great, but you know, you can make some pretty good money on the exit. So it's going to be interesting over the next several years.

Interesting. It's going to be really interesting.

Yeah. But all the more reason to create, I mean, something that I think has really served us well in both businesses has been to like begin with the end in mind and to build something that is scalable and sellable, you know, so that you have optionality. Like I have a choice here. Do I want to continue to scale and expand because I can, or do I want to sell Because I can. And I think in order to do both, it takes like the same fundamental asset organization. Like you have to have your SOPs dialed. You've got to have your marketing dialed. Typically it's in-house marketing where you're not dependent on some type of external variable in order to generate new patients for you. You have to have a great sales system. You have to have a great money model and profitability has to be there.

And so many docs wait. I mean, that's a lot of work like that you just talked about to get The the price that you want, not even the price, just to have somebody who even wants to buy it. Seventeen percent of chiropractic clinics sell. So like not screw your price. Like even anybody who's willing to give you the money.

83 percent of clinics don't. Yeah, right.

So that is a lot of energy, and by the time people are ready to sell, they're exhausted. And if you're like, okay, so here are the five top recommendations that I would do to your clinic so you can like increase prices, increase your profitability, and like. Create an SOP for this. And they're like, no, I'm tired. That's why I'm selling. If I had that kind of energy to improve my clinic, then I wouldn't be selling. And so it really is 5 years out, you got— I think you have to be thinking about— You're booking out. Even 5 to 10 years out, be thinking about the end in mind. And so many are just like, I'm not thinking about the end in mind until it's in my mind. Yeah.

I mean, that's really good. I, again, this isn't about me. This is about you. It's your podcast episode. But I think that is something also, like just my lens. Fortunately, I ran across Hormozi when he was the Gym Launch guy, you know, like right when I opened the practice. I don't even know, somebody that I knew that was in fitness, because I was a personal trainer and I was in fitness for before I came into chiropractic. And like one of my old fitness buddies, like he was like, have you seen this guy? And I was like, who is this bearded dude? And so I just dissected all of his stuff.

The nasal strip.

Yeah. At the time he wasn't really, that wasn't his brand. He just had a beard. But, you know, he just started to teach me that like regardless of what type of business you're building, you should build it through the lens of it's a business. And so I think in chiropractic, Unfortunately, most commonly it's like I'm building a practice and the business is secondary.

It feels greedy to think about it like a business. It feels greedy.

It does, but it's also what's going to help you—

It shouldn't. It shouldn't.

Stay open plus 3 years.

Yeah. Society has made healthcare an honorable thing, and thinking about money does not equate being honorable.

Yeah. But like you said, the practice has to sustain. The business has to sustain in order for you to make an impact on your community.

You have to sustain.

That's true.

You have to sustain. True.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting. And you're not that— I was going to say you're a female and I'm a male. That's pretty obvious. But I do find it interesting. I just feel like there's a lot of male doctors that I'm connected to just simply because I'm a male. So naturally I have more male friends, But, just seeing the amount of weight and pressure that they have for— I think us chiropractors, we have a specific set of values and we love autonomy, we love freedom, we love sovereignty. I think a lot of times we are countercultural. And so, just like with you talking about the homeschooling thing, a lot of my chiropractic buddies, their dream would be to retire their wife and have their wife stay at home and not have to have an income and definitely not have to have an income to just then turn around and give that to daycare. Or whatever, childcare. And, you know, they do want to build a legacy and they do want to have these things that we're speaking about now that are really awesome and liberating to achieve. But like, they just don't see that opportunity ahead of them as a chiropractor, specifically if they're associates. So like, our mission in our practice is to change that. Like, we want our associates to be like the highest paid associates in the world. And we want to— we want them to be able to make that type of money, all the while reducing the amount of stress that they have in their life so that they can have work-life balance. Because not everybody's entrepreneurs, like you said. A lot of them are, but a lot of them aren't. And so like, how can we turn this profession around by having key figures that are willing to take on the risk and responsibility of being a business owner and be able to shoulder all of the weight and pressure that comes with that? But be able to download all the acumen and be equipped with all the skills to actually build something that is scalable so that you don't have to eat your young, you know, so that you do have the margins and the resources to be able to provide the people that are bought into your vision and your mission with the same or similar, at least, lifestyle that you want to live, you know? Because I think I heard a stat the other day that said— I know we're going over here, but I heard a stat that said that once Like the threshold for like happiness is like $250,000 a year. And once you pass that threshold of $250,000 a year, the next threshold that adds any additional happiness to your life is $750,000 a year.

Wow.

And so the gap, that's a $500,000 gap. And so realistically, like if you can get them to $250,000, like that's, I know that's far-fetched.

That's, you know, but like, I mean, you gotta, so, I mean, there was kind of a question in there of like, how do we fix this?

That's kind of where I'm going.

Yeah. Is like, you're right. What we need is we need people who are meant to be associates to feel like they can be taken care of as associates. Yeah. But that requires that we are so profitable that we can afford to do that. And so, I mean, this is, again, this is in hospitals, this is across all healthcare. This isn't how do we fix chiropractic? This is how do you fix healthcare? Because you've got people that are, you know, getting paid $13 an hour as surgeons, essentially, when they break it down. And so it's like, all right, well, we have to be highly profitable. You cannot. And it's one of the number one things when I'm talking to a doc who has a team and, you know, I'll say like, you know, what's your revenue goal that you want to get to? And they always have a number. And I go, why? What, when you think of that number, what does that provide for you? And they're like, I can take, I can give my team raises. I can, like, it's always just this. And it's true, right? Like we cannot, we can't have, we can't put a listing out that says I'm hiring an associate for $125,000. Like, oh, do you know how good that would feel?

Yeah.

To put an associate listing out saying $125K starting. Like, I would love that. We would love to be able to take care of people like that. You gotta ballin' in your profit margins to be able to do that. And so often we're just not willing to do that first step, those first steps to increase your profitability so much that you can afford. And so we continue to put associates in a situation with our own brokenness where they have to be extra martyrs. to take the job and keep the job. We put them in fight or flight where they are like, okay, I do not see a way that I can make more. So therefore I have to become an entrepreneur, even though they don't really even want to be or things like that. But we have to have a safe place.

They're forced into it. Interesting.

School too. You have to, we have to stop glorifying when I graduated in 2010, and I'd be really curious To anybody who's like newly graduated, there were, in our class of 110 people, there were like 5 people who planned on being a career associate. Everybody was like, because it kind of, like I said, like there's all these things. Can you be the true pediatric chiropractor that you want to be if you take insurance and you're an associate, right? Like those boxes that I said, like we have to be able to be willing to like cut of like, oh, and you're also not the clinic Like, can you feel super empowered in your career choice that you are as much of a chiropractor as anybody else as an associate? And I would say that all of us, if we were like asked privately, like that guy owns a clinic, that person associates, are they like equal? Like we'd be like, no. Like, right? Like we, we have that. And so we have to figure out how to go like, okay, being a chiropractor is being a chiropractor.

Period.

And that's good enough.

Yeah, I think that's how we solve it. I think I agree. I think that we have to, because to me, whenever you send somebody out on their own that isn't equipped and maybe is not the archetype to be able to bear the weight of entrepreneurship, then we're setting them up for success. I mean, we're setting them up for failure simply because, you know, there, look, there's fluctuating values that I've seen. 87% of businesses don't make it through the first 3 years. 50% of businesses, or 50% of business in the first 3 years, 87% in the first 5 years. Sometimes it says 87% in the first 3 years, depends on where you're looking. But regardless, most chiropractic practices don't make it within the first 3 to 5 years. And so like, I think what that means is first off, the school is failing us. We're not getting any business education. We don't know how to market and generate new patients. We don't know actually how to sell our services. We don't know how to package them profitably. And then there is that ego in place. So how do we stop this like weird assignment that like we need to go out and do this on our own or we are not good enough and we're not going to receive the external validation from our friends, families, and colleagues and actually start to build these really highly successful practices where you can fit your vision inside, make really great money, take care of your family, intentionally invest your money into other additional, you know, I mean, if they can start investing into real estate, like that would be incredible. Like in, if you can just look at short-term rentals, like they're just looking at, they're not even really looking at your debt-to-income ratio. They're just looking at the pro forma to see, is that going to cash flow? You know? So like, I think there's other ways where they can start to build real wealth and take care of themselves long-term.

I wish that associates, instead of thinking, I'm not making enough money, I'm gonna go start my own practice. Travis, what would you do if you had an associate come to you and say, hey Travis, I, I'm not making enough money. Will you pay me less of a base?

To work more.

But give me a more aggressive commission based on new patient leads. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go out, we're gonna figure out a system. Where we know that I brought that patient in and I'm going to get a higher percentage. Da da da da da. Like as an entrepreneur, I'd be like, "Oh, let's talk. We need to figure out details." But yes, exactly. And so like that's the thing is like do that instead, associates. Like you want they want autonomy.

They want to know that their work—it's a meritocracy—is going to result in more money.

Generates more money. Yes, yes. And so like that they think that their only option. is to start their own. And it's like, no, gimme a deal. Let's talk. You wanna like, all right, sounds good.

So that's what we do. So we have a really, I would say generous base salary, $7,000 a month base salary. And then on top of that, they make a 5% commission up to $30,000. When they cross $30,000, they get 8% commission of all monies collected, not contracted, but collected for that month minus any refunds, that are processed. And then on top of that, we have team-based performance bonuses. So our associates this month are making $12,000 take-home this month. And like, I want them to make more, but like, that to me is good money for an associate because they're, they work 3 hours.

A lot of the clinic owners that aren't making that.

No, most aren't. I think I looked at the stats the other day. Median, median clinic take-home was $129,000 a year, which is crazy to me. And then median, median associate income was $59,000 a year from what I saw from Chiropractic Economics. I've seen numbers quoted from 59 to 79, but regardless, let's put, say, 69 in the middle. Like, you can't survive on that anymore, especially if you're the head of household. But you're right. What we did is we created an incentive structure, and like, that incentive structure was based on merit. It was based on effort. Like, if you wanna earn more, then you earn more.

You earn more.

You know, you add more value to the practice and you earn more money. But I do think that, you know, chiropractors need to be willing to set up associate structures like that if we do actually want to change the landscape. Because you're right, chiropractic is going downhill. The enrollment numbers are down. The success rate of chiropractic offices are down. People are leaving chiropractic to go take on other positions with $200,000+ in student loan debt that they're defaulting on. It's kind of a shit show right now.

Mm-hmm.

And, it sucks because I talk to people like you and like all these other chiropractors that are freaking crushing it, you know, like it's relative, right? You know, it's relative, but like that are doing really well. And I'm like, high five, like good for you. Like you, you figured it out, you know? And how do I, how do I start to like share a message out to these associate doctors and/or clinic owners and be like, look, there is a better way to do things.

Mm-hmm.

You just have to be willing to Um, you have to, you have to be willing to have a paradigm shift, you know, but it's there.

100%. 100%. And then the associates just need to start a little LLC so they can like get some of that tax savings from being an owner. And then you're good.

Yeah, exactly. Start a little LLC, start to run some of your personal expenses through there.

Run a little personal brand and then there you go. Now you get the write-offs and you have no need to start a clinic.

Your entertainment, your internet, cell phone, whatever. Yeah. All right. Well, um, I mean, we kind of just like riffed on stuff here. I got through about 7 questions of the 35 that I had, but it's all good. So I guess let me just like leave you with this because, um, you know, you, you are, I would say like pretty well known in the space for personal brand. So, you know, there's a lot of people out there, let's say burnt out providers. Um, you know, there's a lot of people out there who are listening that are convinced that like, this type of freedom or access to these types of opportunities are not available to them. So like, what would you leave those people with? I'll leave it at that.

Oh, so the question is, these are people who don't think it's possible for them?

Yeah. Or just like, say whatever you want to say. Like, what are you talking about?

Oh, okay. Just like, what are you talking about? What is your mic drop?

Yeah. What's your mic drop moment? Like, what do you What do you want to share with an audience that I would say like most of these people haven't heard you speak before? Like, you know, how do you help people and what do you think is one thing that you could give them today that would help them change the way that they're either thinking about money, they're thinking about income, they're thinking about their time, their systems, their freedom, so on and so forth?

I would say one of the worst things you can do is sit in shame and not be willing to do the work to get out of it. That sounds like pure hell, absolutely pure hell. And so unfortunately, you're already in shame and they are afraid to look at the actual math of what it's gonna take to get out of it. And so they avoid it because they think that's just gonna be more pain and they're already in pain and they're afraid of what that knowledge about their situation is gonna tell 'em. But there is no way to get out of pain without looking at where are you at? It's okay. The number of times I'm talking to someone and I ask these questions and they're like, I'm afraid to tell you. And I'm like, you're about to give me money to be your coach. You have to tell me. Like, it's so— like, we have to remove the shame from our numbers. And then it's just math. Then like, it really— I'm not a hype person. I'm not going to be like, you just don't believe in yourself enough. That might be true. That might be true. But once we have, I mean, you were a personal trainer, right? Once you understand like all of these certain stats about someone, then you can create a program.

You got a starting point.

Like, it's not, it's not rocket science, macros and how much you're burning and all this. It's really not that complicated. And so from where you are at, everybody thinks this is a Hormozi quote, that they're a special little snowflake, that they're bad. They're extra worse than everybody else who's failing. They're extra incapable. I'm not special. You can get out of the situation you are in, but you cannot do it without pain, your version of pain, whether that's hard work, facing the numbers. But if you're too afraid to move, then I cannot help you.

That's freaking good. That's good. That's your mic drop moment. Yeah. I mean, I remember that moment. I remember that moment for my wife and I, we were sitting at the bar in our condo and I remember we had that moment where I was like, I'm tired of ignoring things. And if you ignore it, it doesn't go away. And you know how I know that? Because I ignored shit for a long time and it never went away. And so we finally did exactly that. We took a full, like, it was financial. I think a lot of times it typically is full financial snapshot. And it was like we had this poster board that was vertical and we had it full of credit card debt. And it was like every line of credit or credit card that we had. And then the amount of money that we had in our bank account. And we put that up on the board. And I still I remember this day. Am I going to make me tear up a little bit?

Oh, it's so great.

I remember crossing them off one by one. And when we finally crossed that last one off, we celebrated. And it was those moments, like you said, it was that moment that gave me the fuel to build something special. So, you too, as long as you're willing to do the full and honest analysis and assessment to see where you're at, then and only then can you create a path forward to get where you want to go. That was really good, Lauren.

100%. Well, thanks, Travis. This was fun.

It was fun. Thanks for coming on. Um, why don't you, uh, let the listeners know where to find you? You have the Rich Doc Lab coming up. It's— when is it? Is it free?

Okay, so I have a free gift. If you liked this conversation, you can go to drlaurenb.com/masterclass.

And that's L-A-U-R-Y-N.

Yep. Yep. That's, that's it. That's a special spelling there. I should own Dr. Lauren with an E as well. That would be good. That would just be smart. And then just redirect. I'm gonna send my team a message right now to actually do that. But anyway, so drlaurenbee.com/masterclass, you can download my free 45-minute training, Rich Doc Rising, on some of the 7 essential steps to framework to building this. Otherwise, my favorite place to hang out is on Instagram. @DrLaurenB. If you send me a message, you're gonna get a response. Like, I'm very, very active with my community and I have the most fun over there.

I can attest to that. I sent her a message and she responded. That's why she's here today.

I did. I did.

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for taking your, your time out of your schedule, an hour and 26 minutes. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Lauren.