EP047: Sales for Non-Selling Professionals with Jody Williamson

Welcome to the Perfect Practice podcast where we share the most innovative strategies to help you build a successful functional medicine business, attract your ideal patients, serve your community, and get paid what you're worth. Each episode is packed with practical steps that you can take to immediately grow your influence and serve more people. Our mission is to share golden nuggets from successful practitioners, technology experts and innovators from around the world. Your host, Sachin Patel, is a functional medicine and success coach, international speaker and best selling author. He's calling in all his favors to bring this information to you so you can create your perfect practice.

Welcome everyone to Perfect Practice. This is Sachin Patel and today I have a very special guest with me, a dear friend of mine and member of Genius Network, Jody Williamson. Jody has an extensive experience in sales and one of the things that he specializes in is helping people in the non selling profession. So this would include, you know, functional medicine practitioners? Certainly. He works for the Sandler Selling system organization, training organization. And this is a professional organization to help companies improve their sales and do it in a highly ethical way in a way that's comfortable for everybody involved. So Jodi's done a couple 10 minute talks at Genius Network and I really just love this energy more so than anything else and really gives off a very, very positive vibe. And he approaches this as a true professional. So I wanted to share him with my colleagues because we're in the type of business where when somebody makes a decision, lives change. And when somebody makes a decision and they go in a different direction than we want them to, then lives don't change. And in fact, lives typically get worse. So, Jodi, thank you for being here today and I honor you for sharing your time and expertise with us.

Yeah, well, thanks for having me. Where do you want to start?

Well, I want to start with. Let's just define selling. I think that's a good place to start because that's like a swear word in some people's minds and they have a negative association with it. So let's start there.

Yeah, well, the problem with selling is there's a stigma. And in my book, the Contrarian Salesperson, which I should have had a copy here to hold up. But in my book, one of the principles I talk about, and I wrote this book as a parable and I wrote it in the style of being able to read it in 90 minutes. But the purpose of the book was to show that the traditional image of a salesperson is not what we have to do. And contrarian selling is basically doing the opposite of what most cheesy kind of stereotypical salespeople do. And I work in a lot of different industries. I work in traditional businesses where they have salespeople, they have people cold calling and closing and all that kind of stuff that you'd think a salesperson would do in a combination of business, a lot of business to business, but business B2C also. But so the challenge is even for people like that who are salespeople, for them to sound like every other salesperson, that then they tend to get in their world, commoditized, stigmatized, treated a certain way that we don't want to be treated. But around half of our clients are not salespeople. They are professionals who have a specialty that's not selling. But the way the world has evolved is now they gotta sell. And they might not call it selling, they might call it marketing, they may call it meetings, they may call it whatever. But you know, I would view it as selling, not using the stereotypical way to describe that. So I own two of the Sandler offices in Chicago. So our client mix here is just. It's is all over the place. So I have worked with a lot of people in the medical profession, but also accountants and engineers and architects. And they're all the similar challenge. It's like, hey, I went to school for all these years. I'm like really super smart in something. But this selling stuff is mysterious to me. Plus it makes me feel kind of not ethical. It makes me feel kind of like I gotta go take a shower after. I feel like I sold someone and that's not what I want people to feel. And so going to your question on the definition is that selling is typically viewed as a taking activity and you think of the stereotypical salesperson. It's funny because in the book I have, what I did is I put a lot of principles in the book that just for the last 20 years and working as a coach and Sandler and I also just so the group knows I sell and I manage people. So I come from the perspective it's not just some ivory tower syllabus or something. But I've asked this question for years. In fact, I asked it, I think in the Genius network meeting we just had where I asked the group, I said, write down a couple words that describe the stereotypical salesperson. And in the 10 minute talk, it were like cheesy and high pressure and slimy and sleazy and all these are the words that people use to describe a salesperson. So then what happens is because that's kind of our. Our framework for what a salesperson is. Even though everyone on this call isn't a salesperson, the idea of selling still feels a bit slimy and sleazy. And so the stigma is that selling is a taking activity. I'm out to sell people and make a commission, and it's all about me closing the deal. But as you and I discussed, sales really, you know, there's. At the Genius Network, there's a. There's a thing on. There's a poster on the wall and says, life gives to the giver and takes from the taker. And that's really aligned with contributing and not just taking. And I kind of borrowed that phrase and just adapted it to sales. Gives to the giver and takes from the taker. And that in sales, if you really have something of value and someone needs it and you can change their life, and many people on this call can, like, save people's lives or increase their longevity, then I'm not taking anything. I'm clearly, I've got some value and I'm giving it to them. Sure, money's going to change hands, but ultimately I'm giving something of much greater value than they're paying me. So if I can get this on today's call, just to start thinking about sales is giving, not taking. Sales is not cheesy. Sales is just influencing people to make a decision that's best for them.

Yeah, and here's the thing, especially in healthcare, and I really appreciate that explanation, and I can see how passionate you are about this. I can see that you've had to, like, probably crack some people's heads open to really get this in there. Here's one thing that I'll say that I think can add a little bit of context here is that, you know, when we're helping somebody make a decision, we just have to realize that we're giving them so much more value in return for what they're paying us. And hopefully, if we can present ourselves in such a way they want. I mean, they should want to give us the money, because if they don't give us the money, they're going to have to give it to somebody that they don't want to give it to and somebody who may not add as much value. Like, you know, if somebody. If we can prevent somebody's chronic illnesses or reverse somebody's chronic illnesses, then there's so much more value that we're adding. And if we can present ourselves in such a light and honor these people in such a way, then they're going to want to give it to us, and they should want to give it to us because we're the ones that are going to make such a big impact in their quality of life for them. So, you know, thank you for sharing that one.

I think something that we all have to remember, too, is that I have one of my mantras and I just did I do these like weekly sales tips, right, and just send them out social media and clients and people just were engaged with and the topic was sell yourself first. And I came up with that topic a couple years ago and just did another video on it because I found that people quite often didn't have the confidence to. To sell and influence and get people to make decisions because they hadn't 100% sold themselves on the value proposition or they knew about it. But they get so in the weeds, they forget, like, what do they do? And, you know, this group is different than some groups. Some groups I'm talking to, they're selling, like, widgets, right? They're selling screws and fasteners and stuff like that. And it's really hard to make the connection that, wow, I'm changing someone's life by selling them a different bolt for their machine they're building. But salespeople sell everything, right? They're selling it. So I coach some of those people. So for me to make the connection for them to like, you're making a difference in the world is a bit of a stretch. Even though I can make the argument that they are. Because if that machine falls, like, I have someone who sells to jet engines, well, if the jet engine falls apart in the air, yeah, you killed somebody. But I think it's not much of a leap for this group to say, you know what? I clearly could save someone's life. I clearly can impact them to that level. So it really comes down to reminding ourselves, because I don't care what industry someone's in, we get so close to it, we forget to take a step back and say, wow, like, I, like, transform people. And, you know, in our world, it's like people come to us and they think they're buying sales training. You know, I want to get some sales coaching. But really what they're doing is they're just transforming their lives because we're talking about goals and asking questions and being more present and being more engaged. And really, people have become better parents as a result. They become a better spouse. And. And so I say this because in our world, I know in my heart of hearts we can make a Huge difference in someone's life. So whatever we're charging and whatever they're investing is a small percentage of what they're going to get in value. So I encourage everyone here to take that reflection and journal. If you journal, like, what do you do? One of my journal entries for many years and I still do it from I journal every day. And for many years my journal entry was, I give 10 times more than I look to receive. So I wrote that down like, I give 10 times more than I look to receive. I did, like for years. And I just came like I could say it right now because I said so many times. And I really do. I know in my heart of hearts if someone's writing us a check for $10,000 for one of our programs or something, they're going to get $100,000 return on it, easy if they apply to it. And I know that. So it comes through in my conviction, because when someone gets into wanting to negotiate or they want to think it over, or they say, wow, that's a lot of money and you get all that kind of nonsense, that's not the issue. It's never the money. It doesn't matter what someone's selling, it's never the money. They might not believe it's going to work is really the issue.

I love that it's never the money. And that's, you know, that's such a difficult concept for healthcare providers to grasp because we're seeing people in their lowest state of function, right? We're seeing them. And of course, if somebody's had a chronic health challenge for seven years, they've probably developed a negative association with money because their money hasn't been working for them up to this point. So they put money into a machine and it gets lost in there. It's like putting money into a vending machine and the chips don't come out and you're like, you're starving. So that's how most people feel when they've put money into the vending machine before. They haven't received value in return. Whereas, you know, you're trying to convince them that, hey, when you put money into this vending machine, you are going to be able to get something out and you'll probably be able to get three or four bags of chips for the same price. Right? That's the other thing we got. We have to sell them on. We're selling them on the invisible. I think that came up is how do you help people overcome a deflated self value? Because one of the things That I would argue as well is that some people have a low self worth and so they're not used to investing in themselves. So they never had to think of it from that perspective. So how do you maybe you have some suggestions on how we help people shatter some of those paradigms and self worth issues?

Yeah. So you're saying that they don't see the importance of investing in their health because they kind of view themselves at whatever level it is.

Well, maybe they do see the importance, otherwise they probably wouldn't be engaging with us in any way whatsoever. But they may not. Like, how do you put a dollar value on something that's priceless? Right. Because people will say, oh you know, I know my health is invaluable, I know my health is priceless. But then they'll go on to say that, you know, $3,000 isn't worth it to fix it. Right. So what's going on there?

3,000 is a lot to them. But then they, you know, they did a weekend downtown and went to the theater and spent 2,500. So anytime it's never the money, it's always the priority. And part of selling is increasing the priority they give to whatever we're selling. So over our Sandler organization, because I have the two offices in Chicago, but we're in 30 countries, we have 275 offices all over and they're all individually owned. So like I said, I own these two. It's one of those things that it doesn't matter what industry we're selling into, if they don't see the value, they're not going to find the money. It's never about the money. So when I get a money objection. Oh, I don't have 3,000 or it's hard to find that. Or call, call me in six months. Oh, call me. Now's not a good time. But in a few months touch base with me because I think I'll have the 3000 then that is code for I don't see the reason to do this. So one of the things that my other 10 minute talk was on the concept of pain. And see, here's what I've seen just as an observer, as a total third party observer to medicine is that when people have pain they tend to find more money than if they think they're going to get gain. And if you look at kind of the psychology on this and there's, you know, if you ever took us, many people here probably as part of your education took psychology classes. One of the things that's taught is the concept of, like, what motivates people, what gets people to make a change? And the challenge can be. So I'll write these down. So this is the hierarchy of pain, fear, pleasure, pleasure, and curiosity. And what happens is. All the studies show the same thing, right? When someone has pain, they take quicker action. If someone has. And so pain. And we call pleasure, basically gain. And think about fear. Fear is a very strong motivator. People buy insurance for fear reasons. Most people buy insurance because it's not that they have pain now, but they're worried about the pain they could have in the future, which is basically fear. The challenge can be if we look at what gets people to take action. And pain's the most powerful. Curiosity is the lowest. If someone comes to someone on this call and they come to a workshop or some kind of event or whatever, and they don't get really to the pain level of, like, wow, this is, like, something I got to take action on now. Because if I don't, something bad's gonna happen. If it's positioned as, hey, you're good now, but you could maybe get better. People tend to stay in curiosity or pleasure mode. Yet here's the problem. When people are in curiosity mode, they are curious. So they seem like they might be someone who's gonna do something, but then they're the ones who give. You think it over. Say, let me think about it. Call me in six months. Call me in six. And they get that whole we. We get into chase mode. We'll call it. And when I get into chase mode and they say, I need six months, they don't need six months. They just haven't been sold on the importance of the pain to take action, because $3,000. See, here's the thing. The person who says, I don't want to spend 3,000 to get better and healthier and feel better about myself, if their kid had something that came in, the doctor said, hey, you need to write a check for 30,000 next week. They would find the $30,000 because it was that important to them. So we need to engage in a conversation and see, here's the thing I also want to convey is that selling is not telling. Selling is not talking. That's the stereotypical image. We call it showing up and throwing up. Right? Tell them everything you know. Right. And hope I hit a raw nerve. But really, selling is not any different than what a doctor does. And that is, hey, maybe you got a problem I can fix. Let's talk about this. Tell me a little bit More about that. Tell me what the impact is. Tell me what. And so we actually use that analogy that salespeople, whatever profession they're in, they're really like a doctor asking questions to diagnose. And then the prescription, if we have it in our product offering, then that's a prescription. And sometimes an ethical selling is all about if I have someone in front of me and I ask those questions and I have something, but it's not the answer for them. I, I should say, hey, I feel for you and I can refer someone to you, but what you're describing now is actually not what I fix. It would be wrong to sell someone who you actually could sell them because you kind of got them in a vulnerable place, but you knew in your heart of hearts, it's like, that's wrong. It's unethical. So I have two rules, and I have this ethical selling model I developed, right? Rule number one is it's unethical to sell someone something they don't need. So I'm in front of someone and I know just bottom line is this is not for them. They're not going to implement it. It's just not a good fit. Then I owe it to that person for however I do it to withdraw. But people don't because they have a scarcity mindset and they feel like they got to close the business, which then leads to a taking mindset. So part number one is it's unethical to sell someone something they don't need. But part two is it's unethical to not sell someone something when they do need it. So when I have someone in front of me and I clearly know through our conversation that I can help them, I could save their life or improve their quality of life or whatever it is, then I owe it to them to have the kind of conversation where I can get them to make a decision. I owe it to them when I'm in front of them to not accept the think it over. I owe it to them not to have them just kind of procrastinate. If I know that. See, it's almost like if I had the cure for a disease, right? And it was this disease that when you, when someone's diagnosed, they got 30 days and that's it. It's like every single time, it's like 30 days and then they die. But let's say I, as an entrepreneur, I developed this new cure. It's like this miracle drug, but it's new to the market, so people are skeptical. So someone meets with me, and we'll call that a sales call, right? Because they're the prospect, I'm the salesperson. And they come in and they say, hey, I got this condition. I got 30 days. And I say, well, let me tell you about my solution. I got this magic pill. It works 100% proven. But they say, you know, I'm a little skeptical. I'm not sure. Let me think about this. Give me a month. Call me back. It's like, what? Like. And so if I knew I could save someone's life, I mean, I think everyone on this call would probably be like, oh, timeout. You think it over, you're dead. You're not leaving. Now you can actually tell me no, and I respect that. I think it's the wrong decision, but tell me no, that's okay. I'll let you go. But you're not going to tell me to call you back, because that's just. That doesn't work. And so having the conviction when someone's in front of you. Now, I'm not saying to go obnoxious on them and then do the stereotypical salesperson, but the mindset should be, when I have someone in front of me who I can clearly help, who needs what I do, I owe it to them. I owe it to them to engage them in a process of making a decision that's best for them.

Okay, I like that. I mean, that's so. I totally agree with that. And for those of you listening to this, it's really about selling yourself. Like, you have to be sold on yourself to have that type of conviction. And it's when you're not sold on yourself, that's where the challenges come in. Because if you're like, being sold on yourself is becoming, in our case, a product of our own product. Right? So we ourselves have to go through this healing journey, all of us do, including myself. And everyone that's on this call has gone through that process in some way. It's actually part of our mentorship program that the doctor has to become a patient so that they can be sold on the opportunity that they're leaving on the table every time by not optimizing their own health, but then understanding and feeling the benefits of that so that they can then sell that to somebody or at least vocalize that to somebody, because they're also invested in that process. One of the things that we recently did for our team members is we significantly upgraded our benefits package. And so our benefits package includes genetic testing, it includes stool testing and organic acid testing. Every Six months for our team members. Because if we're going to be. If we want to change and we want to have conviction around changing the healthcare model and employee benefits, well, we've got to do it first, right? We've got to become a product of our own product. And if we see amazing results with it, then we're going to be absolutely convinced. Convinced and rabid and passionate about putting this content or this new way of looking at things out there and helping people out there. And I guess another thing that people have to realize, at least from my perspective, is I just ask people to imagine that that person sitting in front of them is their brother or their sister or their mother or their father or their child. How much would you plead with that person if you had a solution for them? I mean, how often are you going to remind these people and in a loving way, let them know that you've got a solution for them? I think it's absolutely mandatory that we become a product of our own products so we could have this type of conviction.

Yep, I agree. And we talk about that as one of our rules. It's so funny. Use that word track at the very end. The words you said was become a product of the product. I say it all the time, become a product of the product. You can't effectively sell them unless you believe it. And your process of people have to become a client first or a patient first is spot on. Because what happens is. See what happens is there's something called buyer empathy. So when somebody says, wow, 3,000 is a lot of money. And I'm not sure I want to make those changes. Well, if I haven't written a check and I have not made some changes, the little voice in my head says, makes sense to me. I don't know if I do the same thing. There's some findings of research. One is called non supportive Buy Cycle. But basically what it says is this. And I do want to mention this today, that Buy Cycle is basically the way I buy things. So picture this. I'm going to go buy a big screen TV for my rec room and I want to get a cool one to watch games or movies and Netflix, all kind of stuff on. And so I decide, you know what, I'm finally going to get a new one. They got the 4G, they got all this cool stuff out, but I'm not sure which one to get. So I call a buddy and I say, hey Bob, you know, you got this really cool. I remember I was over at your house, what do you have? He Said, oh, I got a Samsung. Tell me about that one. And I call another friend that I had seen a game over at their house. And I'm like, so what do you got? Oh, I got a Panasonic. He's like, oh, tell me about that one. And so I'm thinking, okay, there's a few choices here. And then I go online and I find another make. I'm like, wow, Sony, that's kind of cool. I have good reviews on that. And then I go to Consumer Reports and I do some research there. And then when I go to buy the television, I shop around a bit. I go to this store and then I go to that store and I kind of play them off each other and I negotiate a price. I get the warranty thrown in. So I do all of that for the television. Here's the problem, and it can be a problem for some on this call, is that even though I have probably the best TV on the market for the best price, because I shop on price, because I comparison shop, because I think things over for a long time. When I have someone in front of me now and I'm in a sales capacity and they say they want to think it over, little voice in my head says, makes sense to me. I did the same thing. When I buy stuff, or they say, you know what, 3,000 is higher than what other people can charge. Well, if I buy stuff on sale, then a little voice says, makes sense to me. I kind of shop the same way. So there is a direct correlation between the way someone buys a product as a consumer and what happens to them in business when they're trying to get others to make a decision. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So it actually reminds me of this idea that being Indian, so full transparency here. Being Indian, I think we claim the throne of being the most price conscious people on the planet. So it's a nice way of saying sheep.

Cultural thing. Yep.

And I know some cultures are like that. So even when we went to India, you know, like my mother, my mother in law and my mom and my dad. So I'm not throwing, I'm throwing the entire country under the bus here. It's all about negotiating and wheeling and dealing with people. And you know, my mom's like, why don't you negotiate? Like, even when I buy a car, I don't really negotiate. I'll ask them to add some value, like some free oil changes and stuff like that, because I want to add value for people. So I basically become my ideal consumer because my mom's like, why aren't you bargaining with this person? Because you can. I'm like, well, just because I can, it doesn't mean I, I don't, I have to because I don't want to attract these type of people into my life. So it's, you know, who we are, is, is who we attract. And one of the things that I had to do, breaking this cycle for myself is I actually had to go into. There's a store here called Harry Rosen. It's a designer men's store. And I went in there and I told my wife, listen, I ha. I'm going to go in there and I'm going to buy whatever makes me feel amazing. So I'm going to buy a feeling, not a sport coat. And actually the outfit that I was wearing at Genius Network, that's the story I'm telling you. So I went in and I said, I'm not putting the price. I'm going to pick up whatever I like off the rack and I'm going to buy it. And that's what I did. And it was a very empowering exercise for me. I did have to raise my eyebrows a little bit at the end, but I bought it and I felt amazing, right? And now I have a story to tell. But this exercise, I think, is very important. I think all of us should go and become our. We should be our ideal consumer. We should be decisive. We should not try to haggle and negotiate. You know, we should look for, look for value. Of course, we should not get gouged. And we shouldn't be gouging others either. But, yeah, this, I love this. So, you know, if you're listening to this, go buy yourself a nice, nice outfit. Go buy yourself, you know, that shirt that you've always wanted and don't wait for it to go on clearance. You know, go in there, buy it, wear it, love it, enjoy it, and enjoy that feeling. And realize that you can provide that same feeling for other people, an even better feeling, especially if you're in healthcare.

And also to make quicker decisions, you know, if we think things over, if we have to process it yet we have someone in front of us and we know if they process it and think it over, they might get cold and then just go away and procrastinate and do nothing. And ultimately we haven't helped them that way, then we, once again, when they need to think it over, the voice in our head says, makes sense to me. I do the same thing. So it's not negotiating, it's making quicker decisions. We were On a cruise in April and we were in Colombia and we got off and there's all the hagglers out there trying to sell you stuff. And I want a straw hat. I forgot my hat. So I'm like, stunning. So I paid 20 bucks for this hat. And then we're with a walking tour and someone else has a hat later. I'm like, ah, he got it from the same guy for five bucks. Like five bucks. And he's like, yes. But he says, yeah, you know, he started at 20 and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, so that $15 extra I spent, I have 10,000x that back in my business because I don't negotiate. And it's just like, hey, the price is the price. If you don't want it, then that's my, that's, that's, that's another problem. But it's not about the price. And so I think there, there's a lot. I'm glad to hear you do that because that's really key. So I think someone, this call might have parts of their lives where they're like, I should really work on that because it will. Of all the weaknesses, of the 50 weaknesses that have been identified in salespeople, that's the most common of all weaknesses. That. And the second one is need for approval, which is wanting to be liked.

Where can we find that list?

I can get you the top five. I'll shoot that too. And you get that over. Yeah, the top five are the real ones to look at. I'll get you like a description on each one. But yeah, need for approval is number two, which is wanting to be liked. And if I want to be liked, then I don't ask people tough questions. And I don't, I don't, you know, try to get them to make a decision. And I don't, you know, just all these kinds of things happen. If I really want people to like me.

Is there, is there a way that you could lay a disclaimer out there that says, hey, listen, you know, my job is to help you make a very important, life changing decision and I'm going to do, if, if I can help you, I'm going to do whatever it takes to help you and I'm going to say things that are necessary for me to be able to help you? And I mean, is that something that people can do? Just lay it all out there that this is how I'm going to be? I'm not going to stop until I do something to find a solution for you?

Yeah. In our selling system, which we haven't really gotten to, but in Sandler, there's these seven steps, and one is called the upfront contract. And the upfront contract is at the beginning of a meeting, for example, or at the beginning of a workshop or something, any place. You basically set the ground rules and you set expectations. And so it's very common for. I mean, what you just said is very similar to what all salespeople say. They'll say some form of hey, and I'll just do a demonstration. I'll say, hey, you know, in today's meeting, you know, you're probably gonna have some questions of me on what we do and some of the investment amounts and a little bit more specifics about what we do, but anything you want to make sure we cover. So we get their agenda, then we get our agenda. We say, hey, but for me to better help, tell you if I can help you, because I got to tell you, I'm not even sure we'd be the right fit for you. So out of rule, I would always put that we're not might not be the right fit so they can relax versus we're going to sell them. So we might not be the right fit. I need to ask you questions today, and I need to ask you a lot of questions. And it might appear like I'm probing, but really for me to determine if I can help you change your health and change your life, we got to talk about some kind of personal stuff. And if you're not okay talking about those things today, tell me now, because I'm not even sure it would make sense for us to meet. I'm giving you an abbreviated version. But what I do is whatever you're going to be doing in the meeting that might get a little pushback, just deal with it up front. One of our rules, if you're going to fight, fight up front, right? If they don't want to talk about. Think about it. They don't want to talk about their current health because it's a little personal. Well, then time. It's like me going to my doctor and he says, okay, why are you here? And I'm like, well, I don't really want to tell you. It's kind of embarrassing. He's like, well, how am I supposed to help you if you won't open up and tell me, right? But it really comes down to expectations. So if there's certain things. I coach some people in the financial world, right? Financial advisors, and so they'll meet with someone. Let's say they're meeting with you and say, hey, okay, so we do some small talk and I say, oh, okay, so tell me how much money you make a year and what do you got in savings? And you'd be like, what are you talking about? Like we just met, right? But if we met, we did some small talk and I said, hey, before we meet, I got to tell you, for me to tell you if we can even help you, I got to understand a little bit more about your current finances, your income, some of your goals, where your investments are now, and we got to talk about those things. But here's the problem. It's so personal. Not everyone wants to talk about it. So are you okay talking about those things? Because if we're going to have a valuable meeting and if I can even help you and determine what it is, I got to know what your issues are. But not everyone's. So we know that people don't like talking about money, for example. So when I coach financial advisors, if they don't have that conversation, then people shut down. So I'd say it's very similar. It's like if people, you know they're going to shut down, just deal with it up front and make it part of the called upfront contract. It's basically a verbal agreement.

Now some of us, including myself, we do like online applications. Are there any particular questions that you feel would be great to ask up front and you know, get them to say yes or no or give a response in writing prior to even meeting that because some of us are doing marketing where we might meet people. It's like a one way conversation. They might be following us online, they may have seen some of our Facebook posts and then they want to set up a time to speak with us. So we have an application that they fill out. Are there any specific questions that you think would be extremely relevant to add on there?

Well, in the application, what, what's included? Because I'm just going to look do a quick search here for something I was thinking of. What's asked. Is it more like, as I'd expect, their name and their birth date and. Well, how about I bring it up.

Since I have access to you at this very moment.

Okay.

If that's okay with you.

Yeah, yeah, it totally works. And I have something I just pulled up on my screen. I could share if it, if it makes sense.

Let me just, I'll just pull up our actual quiz so you can see it.

So you do have a quiz?

Well, it's a, it's A. It's more of an application. We call it an application.

Okay.

We used to call it a quiz, and then we upgraded the nomenclature for it.

Okay.

Okay. So you should be able to see my screen.

I do.

And so we asked them, of course, their demographic information, how to reach out to them. What is your top challenge and what would you like us to help you overcome? Why is this important to you? What's stopping you? If you were to wake up tomorrow without this challenge, how would your life be different? What are your top motivating factors to invest in solving this problem? Are you coachable? Do you have a supportive spouse? Have you experienced any trauma? And what are the characteristics you value most in a partnership? Who else have you worked with? What have you done? And considering your past treatments, what would you like to improve or do differently moving forward? Are you willing to do what's necessary? Can you make an investment of at least $3,000? And how did you hear about us? And then we have hundreds of applicants. Why do you feel you're a great fit?

So then what percentage of people, you know, a percentage that start this and then they bail out?

I don't know what the drop off rate is. No.

Okay. I'm just curious.

Yeah, that's a good question.

Overall, I like the idea. I just. What we do is slightly different. So if you scroll up, scroll up to that one, one of the early boxes says, why? What are you hoping to get? Or let's. What's your biggest challenge? I think is what you said. Yep. Yeah. What do you. What do you. What is stopping you? Okay, so. Yeah. What's the top challenge? So what I would suggest is that you give them the top challenges that you see. So if I, if I look, I'm going to see if I can. Can you, can you share. Can I share a screen with you? And I'll just show you one.

I'll stop mine.

We send a questionnaire out and I just pulled it up while we're here. So this is completely irrelevant in many ways to those on this call as to what you would do. But the point is that when we have somebody that wants to talk to us, we say before our meeting to make our time most productive and for us to have a more efficient conversation and not waste your time, because the last thing we want to do is spend a lot of time talking about things that aren't relevant to you. We have a quick questionnaire to look through that will identify some of those areas that you might be struggling with that we might be able to help you fix. And some, some that we help people fix might not be relevant to you. So if you can indicate those ones on there that really jump out at you, then we can make that part of our conversation. So in our world, this is, like I said, it's completely not transferable to what we're talking about here. But we do show these are the kinds of pains that like a business owner has when it comes to salespeople. This is one of our questions. We have a few different versions. And so not getting in front of the right decision maker, not getting in front of enough new prospects, not selling enough new business. We know through our experience that those are all pains that businesses have when it comes to selling. So, you know, not overcoming price objections, doing unpaid consulting. I mean, some of these actually probably are relevant. But when you look at this, what happens is, see, if I ask the open ended question, what are your biggest sales challenges? What do you want to, what are you working on? I get kind of a half answer. They're not sure what they're like, well, we want to make sales better, but we don't get any real specifics. And so what happens is when we send the questionnaire out, they start the conversation on the phone, possibly before the questionnaire is like, hey, I'm looking to improve sales. Okay, well fill the questionnaire. So we go through the word track and talk about that. Then what happens is they get this and they're like, oh, I got this issue and I didn't think, oh yeah, that's a concern. And oh, wow, this one here, I didn't think of that. So what happens is it prompts them to think about things that they should be thinking about or they've thought about what they have forgotten. So a really good way to work it into some application process is not this lengthy, but you could have, you know, 10 different little things there say, you could say, what's your biggest challenge? We've listed some of the common issues that people are struggling with, may or may not be relevant to you. And I can pretty much guarantee you that instead of getting one thing in that box, you're going to get four or five things you're going to check off because it's going to prompt them. See, if I just generically say at the beginning of a meeting, what do you want to accomplish in today's meeting? I get blank. Look, they're not exactly sure because they haven't really diagnosed it yet. And I think, especially what you do, I think there's probably people who are like they were not really sure. So what's the biggest challenge? Well, I want to lose weight or I want to have more energy. Okay. But if you prompt them with common issues are not enough energy. Better sleep, you know, more vitality. I don't know what they are, you know, but, but all of a sudden it's like instead of one, I've got like six. And then what happens is now the pain level goes up and the motivation to make a change goes up. It goes back to this whole hierarchy is that when, when we meet with people without some kind of pain prompting, we typically deal with people in curiosity who aren't motivated to make changes. And if we can, as the doctor, get them from curiosity to pain and now they take action, that's good for them. We've actually done them a favor.

I like that. I really like that. Is there, is there an ideal number of questions? I know you said 10. Is that kind of what we should be shooting for, for ours?

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. I would say if you want to shoot me over when you're working on it, I'll look at it.

But yeah.

And you know, what we do is, I think you and I talked about this. We. When we do like a two hour overview, which we do once a month in our business, one of my trainers does it. We invite new prospects basically, and they come in the room and they're with others and for two hours they're there. I know it's similar to part of your process. And we used to ask the question, what are you hoping to get better at in sales? It was an open ended question, which we're all taught ask open ended questions. But we get people that, they kind of gave us a blank look and they say things like, well, improve my sales. Something very generic. That really wasn't, it was just kind of curiosity stuff. But then there's. Many years ago we started saying, okay, what do you want to accomplish? What do you want to get out of today? And we have a handout here. We've listed. I think there's maybe, I think there's maybe 12 on ours, maybe two columns of six next to each other. We've listed some of the common ones. Just look through that and check off which one jumps out at you, which ones jump out at you? And then so just take a moment to do that. So they look through it and instead of having one, they're like, oh, shoot, I got that. Yep, I got this one. Wow. I didn't think I got that one. And then we Say okay, just before we talk about it as a group with a neighbor there, just share what your biggest challenges are. And then they start verbalizing it out loud and they get emotionally more involved. So now when we begin our workshop, they're more engaged. So whether it's a live event or it's just an application process, the more we get that, get the emotion going, the more likely they are to go to the next step and not procrastinate or blow us off or whatever, whatever that would look like.

Okay. I like scaling it like I like saying it looks like you have five columns of five or six columns there. So I like having that ability for them to gauge where they are on these things because sometimes it's a yes or no. And for them to say yes to something requires extreme challenge. Right. Because it's such a, such a binary thing. So I love the fact that it's not just a one checkbox, it's more of a. You're scaling it out for them.

Yeah, no, and I think there's going back to the application. I think there's an area, there's a couple areas in there where you could have many checklists that seemed like it was a very open ended question, which, you know, the question makes sense. But I think if you were to ask that question and say here's some common issues that might be able to relate to. And I think there was two or three boxes or as you went through, I thought, well that's a place you could have checklist and that's the place you can checklist and checklists just like. And you hit it. Is that when we give people kind of the open box, it just requires for many people just too much thinking and they're not really sure how to answer it, whereas this just prompts them. And I'll tell you that after probably 15 years of using that form I was sharing, it completely changes our meetings. It's like a completely different meeting because people come in already thinking about what their challenges are. So they're ready to engage versus without that they kind of, hey, just curious, you know, what do you do and how can you help me? And it's just this whole superficial conversation that doesn't really usually lead to anything.

No, that makes a lot of sense. And I think the other thing too, I just realized as I was thinking about this as you were sharing this is that if you have checkboxes then versus text, you can actually track data. But if you just leave it to open ended text, then there's no way to Track data at the end of 100 applications, you don't really know where the challenges are for people. So I do like that. Thank you for sharing that.

Well, and then the data you could use there is. You could weave that into the workshops you do or the conversations, because if you know that there's three or four key panes that resonate with everybody, then you can just use that with some kind of introduction. We do that. So, for example, our introduction would be, hey, we work with companies based on some specific issues. Some, some are, you know, we work with people that work with some specific issues. Some are, are frustrated that they meet with people, but the people don't make a decision. And they're trying to figure out how to get people to make decision. Other people we work with is that they, they give a price, but then they get this price. Objection. They're not sure how to sell value. And a third area are people that when they first meet with people, they have a hard time connecting with different personality types and they're wondering, how do I better connect with different kinds of people? So out of role. It's just, we know that if I do three of those in kind of a conversation, that people will almost always lean forward and want to engage in at least one of those three. So what that data could do is for you is you could do a really cool. We call it a 30 second commercial. Just the word can kind of turn people's stomachs, like, oh, commercial. But it really is kind of an elevator talk or whatever you'd call it. But it is a really good way to engage people quickly by giving their pains versus the gains.

Yeah, and one other thing too is like, if you prompt people, they might see something on there that they might not have a problem with, but they might know someone else who does. So you're almost telling people, indirectly telling people, here's the things that we help people with. So it might even prompt them to think of somebody else that, that you can help.

Yeah, totally, totally makes sense.

All right, so there was. I do want to make sure we save some time for questions, but you gave this at Genius Network, this Sandler selling system dashboard, and I love it. It's like it's got some really, really cool facts. Is there anything that jumps out at you that you wanted to share in here? I mean, I could hold this up.

Yeah. I mean, for the context of today's conversation, I would say the page on upfront contracts, which you might kind of do a screenshot and share it with folks. That's Not a problem. And just share as an after the fact on this. And I'd say that the pain chapter in there really gets into like, what is pain? There's a lot there. It's kind of like, wow, it's overwhelming to look at the whole thing without some kind of. Kind of walking through it. But it is a nice Cliff Notes with infographic kind of stuff. But overall, I don't want to see when I'm dealing with folks that are not. We'll call like the term from before, non selling professionals. I don't want to overcomplicate it because if there's too many steps that become. People just shut down. They're like, you know, this is not my primary thing. I just need this to get better at influencing people. But this is like 5% of my time. I got 95% delivering value. And so I try not to get too in the weeds with stuff like that. Even though it's there for today. I just wanted that concept of giving versus taking, ethical selling, getting people to realize their pain versus keep them in curiosity. The importance of listening and not talking. If we can just get those concepts down, then the words will come. It starts with, our whole model is based on this success triangle, which is basically sales. Success is attitude, it's behavior and it's technique. So behavior is goals and having a plan and reviewing technique is. What do you say when you're in front of someone? Like, what are the words? Like that upfront contract I described. I mean, we could practice, okay, what's a good upfront contract? But it all starts with the attitude. It all starts with mindset. And people typically when they come to us, say, okay, I want to sell better. What do I say? What's the technique? Basically is what they ask us. And we got a lot of techniques. We got hundreds of hours of technique kind of training that we do. But the problem is we can teach someone technique training, but if they're still not okay with the idea of selling, they're still not comfortable with. They don't want to be this traditional, stereotypical, cheesy, slick, slimy salesperson. If they're not okay with that, it doesn't matter the technique that they learn. So if we just work on this, you don't need some killer techniques. Sure. I could make the point that in Sandler, you know, there are all kinds of slight edge things you can learn, which you could. But until you work on the mindset towards the idea of selling, it's really, it's kind of irrelevant. And we help People with that too. But just for today, I want everyone to think like, how, how can I do selling differently so that when I have someone in front of me, I can truly help. I don't back off because I back off because I think I don't want to be too salesy. And you don't have to be. You don't have to sound like salesy to sell yet. That's the image that people have.

Yeah, these are all excellent, excellent points. So with your permission, I'll take those screenshots and I'll share them in the group. So thanks.

Yeah, I asked the group not to, like, you know, recopy them and print them out and stuff. It's really just, you know, just, just to check it out.

Okay. Yeah, we'll. We'll make sure that everyone commits to.

That copyright on each one just so you'll see it. So they know that.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. I'd like to open this up for questions. If anyone has any questions. We've got some great positive feedback. And, you know, I'd also, in the chat, chat, love to hear what people's biggest takeaway was or what their biggest aha moment was. Because this is really important. Like, nobody's life changes the way we want it to until they take some sort of action and buy a service that we're offering them. And if we can't do that, if we don't get good at that, then there's no point in us getting really good at clinical stuff unless we really know how to get people to engage in our services and our products and get them to take action. Because you could be an amazing clinician, but if you don't have people in front of you to work on, you know, none, all of that kind of goes to waste. So, you know, it's. It's sad because there's so many practitioners that have so much value to offer, and even for us, like, we're still a work in progress. Right? I think sales is a. Is a work in progress because people are changing, times are changing, the messaging is changing, priorities are changing, and, you know, technology is changing, so there's new things that are constantly coming out. But, you know, this is the thing that we need to get really, really good at as professionals. And it's almost like we were. For whatever reason, health care providers have just this really negative connotation towards getting people to take action, which is what we want them to do, because that's how we're going to get them better.

Yeah, I agree. Totally agree.

Does Anyone have any questions? I'll leave this. We'll have an open mic for the next few minutes. If anyone's got any questions or even if you've got some feedback if you found this helpful. I'm sure Jodi would appreciate that.

Look at some of the chats here. These are all really good comments.

Aaron says we have to be our ideal customer. Yes, absolutely. Practice being decisive. Yes. And it's never really all about the money. Right. It's never. It's. You know, I mean, sometimes it can be right, depending on the price point that people are dealing with, and it depends on what they're purchasing. So I believe that when people invest in a program like Jody's, that's an investment. Right. There's a positive ROI that's going to come from it versus somebody buying a car. That's a whole different story. Because somebody might have a certain budget that they need to follow, but when they're making a decision like health, which is a highly emotionally driven decision, and even business development, those are emotionally driven decisions and also, in some cases, also financially driven. But there's. It's really important for us to understand that it's never about the money. It's about priorities.

Well, and one of our rules is people buy emotionally. They justify things intellectually. So. And as much as any industry that I've coached, it's this industry, Right. Like I said, the screws and the fasteners is a little harder to get the emotion going. But here it's. You know, here's the thing with people who I work with who are in manufacturing. They would love to have something like this to sell because there's emotion, like, baked into it. And when they're selling, you know, screws and bolts, it's like, wow, Jodi. Like, because one of our things is pain is personal and emotional. Right. So not as it. It's not just an intellectual pain. There's an emotion attached to it. And they're like, okay, I got it. But how am I getting emotion out of selling fasteners? Like, what? Like, what is that going to. But. And like I said, we can actually get them there if they see what the fastener end result can be. But they would love to have something with this kind of emotion. Like, well, hell, half the sale is made already, is what they'd say. But they would be wrong on that, too. Well, thanks, Tracy.

Yeah. This is very, very powerful information, and I loved how you shared it. I could tell you're super passionate about it. And it's, you know, it's one of those things that's very refreshing because, you know, the association people have with sales sometimes can be negative. And I love how you bring such a, you know, positive vibe to it and help us overcome that stigma. Any. Any words of wisdoms that you want to share with us? I mean, you shared so many, but is there any big takeaways?

I just see one last question here. It says, should you probe to find the pain? And yes, you should. And in the, in that document, there's something called the pain funnel, which is basically asking the kinds of questions that get to the level of what the personal pain is. So if someone gives you the first indicator that they have a problem, here's the challenge. What's something someone could say, I'm trying to work on what? Let's say I'm meeting with you and I'm selling what you sell. And they say, well, the reason I'm interested is because I'm worried about what might they sell.

Say, my digestive issues.

My digestive issues. Okay, so what many, many, many people do when they think of selling is when. When you say digestive issues, many people just automatically jump and say, well, let me tell you how I can help you, because we've got a program that we can totally customize for your digestive issues. We can work on exercise and diet and supplements. And. And I go into my pitch basically, versus. Our approach is when you say I have digestive issues, I say, well, tell me more about that. And can you be a little more specific? Can you give me an example? And that's in the painful, right there. It said, tell me more, be more. Give me an example. How long has this been a problem? What have you done to try to fix it? So a series of questions that gets them down into. Now there's a question in there that says, what's it costing you dollars and cents? That's the question that really has to be tweaked for what you do, because it really is many times hard to get a quantifiable number attached to health, even though I think you can if you really dig. But it's more important to get them to be aware that the digestive issue is really a lot of other things they should be concerned about. And going back to the question that I think is scrolled past now, which is probing for pain. Yes. People rarely come up and say, here's my pain, here's the consequence, here's how it's impacting me. They typically need to discover to our questions what the issues are it's very much like. It's very much like a psychiatrist. If I was a therapist and you came to me and you said, here's my problem. First of all, I know the problem you bring me is never the real problem. There's always something else that's driving it. Because if you knew the problem, you wouldn't be able to see me. Right? Plus, I know that the problem you're articulating must not be powerful enough for you to change, otherwise you would have changed it before you came to see me. So my job as a psychiatrist, I got to ask enough questions to hopefully you have a light bulb. Go on to say, wow, like, now I get it. It's not this issue. It's this issue. And if I don't fix it, I'm like, really bad stuff's gonna happen. So pain is really about hearing that first thing and engaging in a conversation. And we use, for all the salespeople we work with, we use a doctor patient analogy. I have a graphic that says you were the doctor diagnosing before you prescribed. It's just ethically what you should do. You should just sell people. And so it totally fits in the philosophy. So going back to the question. Yes, you should probe and you should get to the point of. Because going back to the therapist example, if I tell you what your problem is, let's say five minutes into it, I say, okay, timeout. I've heard this a thousand times. Here's your problem, here's how you fix it. Even if I'm right, you're not going to listen to me. You're going to go into denial, automatic denial. You say, no, you don't understand. That's not my problem. We found something else. You're wrong. But if I ask you questions and you discover the same solution that I gave you, now, you buy into it. So when people have their pain, it's not enough for us to hear it and say, I can fix you. Or here's what the problem is. We need to engage them in a process of discovery versus convincing to get them to have an awareness that they're going to take action. On.

Question about pricing, do you recommend advertising pricing on your website? If you've got, like, fixed programs, do you recommend that or do you suggest not discussing pricing? That's a sensitive topic. How would you handle that?

Yeah, I mean, I hate to be like a politician, but it depends. And so there are times where pricing on there is a good pre qualifier. And if 3,000 scare someone to get their health better, then there could be an argument made, like, I don't even want to talk to them if they can't even get their head around 3,000. But I also know that the way the psychology works is our process is basically we, you know, typical meetings, we build rapport. We, you know, make a little small talk, connect with someone. We set that upfront contract agenda for our conversation. We get permission to ask questions, all that stuff. Then we talk about their pains. And then before we talk about our solution, we talk about the budget. So ideally, because think about it. No one's going to find more money to solve a problem than that moment where they're emotionally in pain and they got to fix it. It's kind of like someone. It's like you hear your car's making a weird noise and you're in a bad neighborhood, and you're like, just get me out of here. Get me out of here. I would pay anything to have someone just fix my car right now. But then the sound goes away for whatever reason. And then the next day you're like, I should really get that checked out. But you know what? I'm just going to the office. That's a pretty safe drive. I don't have to worry about. So what they do is that in the moment of the pain, they typically would be like, I pay anything to get out of this neighborhood, because this could be bad if my car breaks down, right? But once they're out of the pain, then you could call them the next day and say, hey, I want your car fixed, and it's gonna be $1,500. Like, you know, I don't have that budget right now. They would have found the budget yesterday in that neighborhood. But now it's like, you know what? I don't really have that budget. But you know what? Cars I think is okay. I mean, I can get through it a little bit longer. Call me in six months and ask me how the car's doing. I mean, it's the same thing, right? So when people are in pain, they will never find more money to invest in the solution than at that emotional, personal involvement. So my point is that going back to your question, should you advertise that if you put it on the site, you can't take advantage of that emotion. Now, I would say that if you. I'm looking at my screen, at a questionnaire. If you have the questionnaire and the prompts, it might get more pain. So then when they get a little farther and they see 2995, that it's like, okay, well, based on all these things I just kind of read and identified, you know, 60 seconds ago, that I should be concerned about. It doesn't seem like a lot, but I think if you take this to the extreme and say, okay, we got a program that's three grand and there's no context of pain, people, dude, that's a lot of money. I just don't have that.

So it's like pain price solution.

Exactly. Pain price solution. But a lot of people do pain solution price. And because they do price at the end, they don't help better qualify should they even present to them. Plus, they don't help manage the person's expectation. Because one thing I would do is we call it the seat belt, which is basically someone says, okay, let's say I get pain. We're talking about it, and I'm getting ready to tell you it's 2995. And I say, okay, based on digestive issues, based on your current fatigue, based on your family history, we can definitely help you with this. But we should probably talk about what the investment is going to be. And before I tell you, I just got to tell you right now, it's way more than you thought it was going to be. Like, way more than you thought it was going to be. That's what it is. In fact, the chair you're in, I hope there's a seatbelt, because when I tell you the price, you're going to fly out of your seat. And they're like, okay, how much? I say, okay, whatever you're thinking now, triple it. And they're like, okay, I'll say, here you go. It's 2995. 3000. And I will tell you, just by that one thing alone, you will completely change people's reaction to $3,000. Because if I don't say that, I say, how much is it? Three grand. Oh, wow, that's high. But if I do that whole thing, it's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. And I say it's 3,000. A large percentage of people will have a reaction, okay, well, it's not cheap, but I thought it was going to be more. So now, see, the 3,000 didn't change. It's the way I introduced it in the conversation that changed. We can help shape people's expectations to money just based on the way we bring it into a conversation. So I'd suggest you build up a little. You don't to do seatbelt if you don't want. Because some people are like, okay, but you can certainly say, hey, we need to talk about this before we talk about the whole program. And I got to tell you right now, it's going to be more than you thought it was going to be, probably a lot more. So you're ready. I'm going to tell you, but just be ready because it's like whatever you're thinking, it's probably triple. OK, here it is. It's $3,000. If you just do that alone, it helps people. And once again, you can read this and say, well, that's manipulative. And okay, well, a therapist is manipulating the patient. Really. They're asking them questions to get them to discover, like, oh, my gosh, I gotta fix this. So we can view that as a bad thing, or we can say, you know, what if I have someone in front of me with pain and I can fix them, but I know 3,000 might scare them away, but by saying a couple things that might not scare them away, then I'm doing it. It's just, it's ethically what I need to do.

And so pain is the tip of the iceberg. Right. Like in our case, it's like, yeah, you're uncomfortable, but it's the last thing that showed up. And probably the first thing that's going to go away. And we're just, you know, that cup is full. We're just taking a little bit of water out of it. Now, where you really need to be is this cup needs to be empty.

Yeah.

And so that's the nice thing about the body is pain shows up a little bit later and goes away first. But it's also the bad thing about the body, because sometimes we could be engaging in negative behaviors for many, many decades before the problem actually manifests itself, where we're in enough pain to actually do something about it. And, you know, as much as people want to buy prevention, I mean, very few people, I mean, people who are smart like us, that are on this call right now and listening to this, like, we get it, like, we see the value, but we've seen that value because we've become a problem product of the value that we offer people. And we have to remember that our patients or prospective patients don't have that liberty. In fact, everything that they've tried up to this point hasn't worked for them. So they're going to come in with a potentially skeptical mindset. And, you know, one of the things that we have to make sure that we're good at is overcoming some of that skepticism, building rapport with Them, engaging with them, asking the right questions, having that upfront contract, which I love that. And I actually do that sometimes. I wasn't doing it consciously. I wasn't calling it that. But I love. I love just kind of like smoking out the objections from the very beginning. And then that way you can have, like, the guards are down, you can have a very direct conversation with people, because let's face it, you're either going to have to have a hard conversation now in the beginning, or you're going to have to have even more challenging conversations down the road when the expectations weren't laid out properly for people. So I really love this conversation. And, you know, we can see here there's some. Some more questions coming in. If you've got a few minutes, I'd love to. I'd love to address them and then we can definitely honor your time and wrap things up.

Yep. Okay. Thanks, Daniel, for that. So, tracy. Yeah, so three. Three is the case fee. Another two, another 2,000 on top for supplements. I mean, my nature is to talk about the whole thing up front, but I don't know enough to say that that's the case. But I mean, right now, if you said, okay, you got to make a decision, I'd say, you know, I talk about the 5,000. But you might make the argument that, you know, just 3,000 gets them in and then the 2,000 is optional or whatever. But if it's really five, then I would. I would build that up. It's like way more way, way, way, way, way more. And I know that, you know, 5,000 isn't a lot for someone's health. It's just we can get so into this whole, you know, because what happens is we can negotiate with ourselves. We can say, wow, you know, 6,000 sounds like. I'd say, I would imagine there's someone out there selling the same thing or something. Not the same thing, but something similar for like 6,000 instead of 3,000. There's probably someone out there selling it for 10,000 for some kind of whatever they do. So it's really just what we believe in it and having the confidence to be able to do it. So, Tracy, I would err. I would tend to say the whole thing up front, but I could be persuaded based on some nuances. I don't know about the sale that you want to do three plus two. But the important thing is not waiting too long, not waiting until later in the process, and then we haven't shaped the expectation. Plus we might have wasted their time and our time I mean, if I was selling a Mercedes S class to people, but they didn't know Mercedes that well. So I took them out in the $120,000 s class, and at the end of it, then maybe they thought it was like an E class. It was like a $40,000 car, but it's like 120,000. But I didn't tell them up front and I took them out for a test drive and they fell in love with it. And then I said, oh, it's 120. They'd be like, why don't you tell me it's 120 up front? Because I don't know if I want to spend that much money. So it's not really fair. If we clearly know that money, they're going to object to take them for a test drive in something that they're maybe not willing to invest in. I'd rather tell them up front, okay, the car is 120. Let's pretend you love it. Do you want to take a test drive or not? If you don't see yourself investing that, we should probably not look at the S, we should probably look at something else. Or maybe we shouldn't look at anything at all. Maybe you shouldn't even be looking at Mercedes, which is fine.

Yeah, I love that. And just to be clear, on our survey for Tracy, it does say a minimum of 29, 99. And when we do present the program to them, we let them know that testing and supplementation will be extra, but it'll be customized so that based on their laboratory initial findings and lab testing that we run. And then from the lab results, we'll then customize a supplement solution for them. But we also tell them as well that we're going to do whatever it takes to minimize your supplement burden. So you can also throw in there how you're going to help minimize the additional cost for them. And if they're committed to making lifestyle changes, then they're going to see results faster, they're going to get much better results as well, and they're going to save money on supplementation. So you could pass some of that ownership onto them, that there's opportunities for them to save money and that you're looking out for them in that regard as well. One of the things that I say is that I will spend your money the same way I would spend my money, and I don't like to waste my money, but I do like to make sure that where I invest my money, I am getting some sort of return on investment. And sometimes that return of investment is going to be peace of mind. Peace of mind is extremely valuable, especially if you have all these thoughts in your head that something's going on wrong with you and it isn't. I mean, I would rather have a negative cancer diagnosis than a positive cancer diagnosis and have that peace of mind. And so we're going to help you invest in some peace of mind by doing the right testing for you, and then we're also going to give you peace of mind by knowing you're taking the right products, by doing the right testing. So our job is to, you know, utilize the resources that you have the same way that we would utilize our resources. And that way they understand that you've got the. You know, they understand your financial core values as well. You're not just going to waste their money. You're going to be very conscientious about that. Yep.

Makes sense. Makes sense.

Awesome. Well, Jody, this has been very, very exciting. I'm certain that I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours.

Yeah, I enjoy the conversation, you know, and every time you and I talked off these, I always enjoy our conversation. So I appreciate you inviting me today.

Yeah, absolutely. I know you don't really have anything to sell us, per se, but where can people learn more about you? Where can people find, you know, find some of these tips that you're offering? Are there any tools that you have that we can download? Because I know that this is very much in alignment with, you know, all of our. All of our practitioners, and there's tons and tons of great ethical value that you've provided us. And what I would like to do before you answer that is also let everyone know, whoever is tuning in live, I'll have a. I want to buy them a copy of your book. So we'll figure out offline how to make that happen. I'd like to buy everyone a copy of your book.

Yeah, And I'll tell everyone. Now, you know, there's a couple ways you could read it. As for what you all do, you could read it and say, okay, this doesn't apply because they're talking about salespeople, but just put that aside and just say, okay, what does apply? Because most of the things. Most of the principles in there, you just need to tweak them and massage them a little bit, but they'll apply. And so, yes, that's a good idea. And there's some principles in there that kind of add on to what we talked about today.

Okay, beautiful. So where can people learn More about you.

Let's see. They can go to jw.sandler.com is our website, which has some stuff on there. And if anyone here wants. And I'll just have them reach out to you and then we'll have it registered here. I do a weekly sales tip. It's like two, three minute videos, and each week it's a different one. Comes out once a week. I think Thursday is when we send it out. But it's just, you know, it's a thinking thing. It's like, okay, two or three minutes and get you to think. Okay, does that apply? And once again, just like the book. I would tell everyone who would. Who wants it. I just. We'll just put you into them. But some of them might be more relevant than others. One might be like, okay, that really doesn't fit. But it's like three minutes. So it's not like you've invested a whole book or something. But I think you'll see most of them if you kind of tweak them a little bit. There is an application.

Okay. Beautiful, my friend.

Excellent. Good seeing you.

I appreciate you. And hopefully I'll see you at the next Genius network meeting. Do you know when you're going? Do you have.

Yeah, mine. I just did my two regular ones for the year. The last one I was at with you, so next time is at the annual event. So.

Okay, well, I'll see you at the annual event.

You can certainly talk sooner if you want, so just reach out.

Okay, we'll do. We'll do. And I'll be in contact with you about the books.

Excellent.

Cheers, my man.

Bye, everybody.

Hi, everyone. I'm still here. Thanks for tuning in, everyone. I've got a meeting with Fabio right now, so I'm going to have everyone jump off in just a few moments. But I'd love to hear your biggest takeaway. Did you guys find this helpful? Was it valuable? Was there an aha moment that you wanted to share? I know that I had several. So I'm going to apply some of these things immediately. But it's always good to kind of share collectively what your biggest takeaway was. I'll start with mine. Mine was the upfront contract. I really like that because you can de. Dickify yourself. I don't know if that's the right word. So you can give yourself permission to be a little bit more aggressive because you actually care about themselves. You actually are passionate about them. And you might even say that up front. Listen, I'm really passionate about what I do, and If I help you, if I can help you, I'm going to do. I'm going to make sure that I do whatever it takes to make sure you take some sort of action. That's my responsibility to you. And if you can be upfront about that, then you don't have to, like, hold back. Because I know that each and every one of you is super passionate. Sometimes you want to shake people into making a decision. So if you can get a little. Go a little bit deeper with their pain, if you can get a little bit more personal with their problems and you can just upfront let people know that you're super passionate and you're going to do whatever it takes to help them, then it gives you a little bit more permission not to be a jerk, right? But it gives you permission to be a little bit more aggressive. Because I know that you guys are right there. So many times you're right there in getting people and moving people to make a decision. And it just could be one more question that you ask them that tips the scales really in their favor as well, right? Not necessarily just in your favor, but in everyone's favor, right? Your practice wins, you win. And of course, most importantly, the. The patient wins.