EP087: Giftology with John Ruhlin and Sachin Patel

Welcome to the Perfect Practice podcast where we share the most innovative strategies to help you build a successful functional medicine business, attract your ideal patients, serve your community, and get paid what you're worth. Each episode is packed with practical steps that you can take to immediately grow your influence and serve more people. Our mission is to share golden nuggets from successful practitioners, technology experts and innovators from around the world. Your host, Sachin Patel is a functional medicine and success coach, international speaker and best selling author. He's calling in all his favors to bring this information to you so you can create your perfect practice.

A really good friend of mine has joined us, John Rulin. Welcome, John, thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. It's such a gift to have you here. No pun intended. So I'll give a little bit of context on how John and I met is actually through another John, John Vroman, who runs an organization called Front Row Dads. And I had the honor of being invited to speak there in Austin. I guess it was. Was it last year? I can't even keep track of the year. Yeah, it was last year. And it was an extraordinary group of men who were there, who were all there not to necessarily talk about business. Many of us have businesses. Have businesses, but we were there to talk about being fathers. And so it was a really high integrity group of people that were there. And everyone showed up as a dad. Right. And checked our egos at the door, checked our businesses at the door and came as we were as fathers. So it's just an amazing growth opportunity for me personally. And when I came home a few weeks later, I got this amazing box in the mail. And it was from John, who wrote the book Giftology. And his book showed up in a box like this. And then the book is amazing, but the packaging is out of this world. So it comes in this leatherette bag and then you take it out of the bag and. And there's the book. Okay. There's also an audio version. So I've kind of kept this in my. Like this is the only book I have in my personal closet. All my other books are on the shelf, but this book is in my personal closet. Okay. So fantastic book. And you know, John travels the world, speaks to Fortune 500 companies, CEOs, executives in front of large audiences. And. And so we're so grateful to have you here, John, to share some of your knowledge and wisdom and share about gifting.

Right.

That's such a huge part of what you do. It's a huge part of what I'VE learned to do thanks to you. And there's another thing that showed up on the day of our call. We had a call together. We were just chatting, and it was this knife. And it was this knife. So you gifted these to me. And these knives have been the topic of, like, so many conversations in my house. And it's amazing how something like this can be so impactful and make you a subject of my conversations with people who you may never even meet but are now aware of you in some way, shape, or form. So thank you for that. Thank you for the amazing gifting skills that you have. And that's one of the things that it's so timely right now, especially with everything that's going on in the world. Gifts can be a beautiful way for us to express ourselves. So with that being said, with giving you all some context, I'd love to welcome you to the stage. John. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Sachin. It was fun to hang out in Austin. Ironically enough, I'm in Austin right now for a couple months with my wife and four little girls. And we decided since it was a weird year and people were acting crazy, why not go check out a city that we've talked about moving to. So just so I have some context, do you want me to dive into kind of the giftology roadmap, or do you want to make this more of a fireside chat? I can take it either direction.

Let's do a little bit of both. How's that?

That sounds.

Tell us all a little bit more about you. How did you get into this? How do you end up writing a book about gifting?

Yeah. Well, what I'll open with is if you're thinking about, like, clicking out or hitting mute and like zoning out to email, nobody wakes up at 4am doing their miracle morning, says, man, if I had a gifting strategy, my practice, my firm, my company would 10x or 100x. Nobody cares about gifts. I don't care about gifts. You probably don't care about gifts. But in business, really, in life, everybody cares about relationships. It's like relationships cause us to either thrive in business and flourish in business and in our relationships at home, it's all relationship driven. And how we show up for people, either powerfully or pulling back, determines whether or not somebody really feels like they matter to us. And that could be a physical gift. It could be the presence of our time. It could be a handwritten note like, nobody cares about gifts, but we all care about people. And most people think they're a 7 out of 10 when it comes to gratitude and gifting and generosity. And really, they're negative 3. And what they don't realize is, and I've kind of found out from an original mentor of mine 20 years ago, but most people don't ever give honest feedback. When you get a bottle of wine and you don't drink internally, you're thinking, this person doesn't know me. Like, they don't. I'm just a number. They just check the box at Christmas or at the holidays, or somebody gives you a sweatshirt and it has their logo on it. Nobody's, like, moved internally in their heart saying, oh, my gosh, you're so generous. You're thinking you're trying to manipulate me to go be an advertisement for your business. That's not a gift. That's a promotional item. So I grew up a farm kid in Ohio in the middle of Nowhereville, in a town of 417 people wanting to get out of Dodge. And I was going to go be a DO or a chiropractor because my mom was into health and wellness. On the farm, we had 47 acres. I milked goats every morning. And so I was going to go to med school. My life changed because out of desperation to pay for med school, I started interning with a company called Cutco. The knife company. The same knives that show of hands. If you guys are familiar with what Cutco is, some people know it is. Some people have never heard of it. So Cutco, I didn't realize what it was. I was 20 years old. It's like the Rolex of cutlery. They're handmade in New York. And so I was like, I'll go sell these knives. I'll interim with the company. And I go and I pitch my girlfriend's dad my fourth appointment. And my girlfriend's dad was this law firm owner, but he was, like, the most generous person I'd ever met. And he was like the guy that would, like, find a deal on noodles. And everybody at church the next Sunday would walk away with like 200 cases of noodles, like a year supply. And I'm like, paul, you're nuts. Why would you do that? Like, that was like 40 grand. And he just got this smile on his face. He was just this super chill guy. He was like 60 at the time. And he's like, john, I just love to be generous with people. That's just who I am. So I work up the courage. If you've never pitched your girlfriend's dad knives, it's like One of the more awkward conversations you could ever have. So I pitched him the idea. I'm like, paul, all of your clients are these dudes of like financial advisor firms, insurance companies, home builders, lumberyards. It's Ohio, so they're into hunting and fishing. And Cutco made a pocket knife that was like 120 bucks a piece. So like a handmade high end knife. And I'm like, would you consider buying this for your top hundred relationships? And he changed my life forever. He's like, john, I don't want to order pocket knives. Could I order paring knives? I'm like, paul, you want to give a bunch of dudes of like million and billion dollar companies like a kitchen tool? I'm like, that's weird. Why? And he said, John, in 40 years in business, the reason I have more referrals, the reason I have more access, deal flow, the reason I'm the most liked, trusted, and top of mind person in the community is I found out that if you take care of the entire family in business, everything else seems to work itself out. So as a 20 year old, I'm like, holy crap. Paul's. I want to be Paul when I'm 60. And Paul understands it's not about the stupid knife, it's about the emotion that's connected to it. If you look at Sachin's knife, it doesn't have anything about giftology or John Rulin on it. It's customized with his name and his wife's name and his, like, what he values. And so I started to mimic what I saw Paul doing this attorney. And I would find out, like a CEO of a $200 million company, insurance company I'd want to get a meeting with. And instead of buying beer in college, I would invest like three $400 in a cutcoat carving set. I'd engrave the CEO's name, his wife's name, family name, and I'd put a little handwritten note inside in my dorm room. I'm packaging this up. It said, carve out five minutes for me. I promise it'll be worth your time. So I mail it off. Two weeks later, I get a phone call from the assistant. She's like, Mr. Smith was super impressed. He wants to meet with you. I go in wearing the one suit I have on, and I'm talking to Mr. Smith in this mahogany boardroom. And he's like, man, are you the John Rulin that sent me the knife set? I said, yes, sir. He said, I thought you'd be like some seasoned Sales executive in their 50s. I'm really confused. Are you here to sell me knives? I said, no, sir. I'm actually here to help you and your thousand sales reps do exactly what I did to you to your top 10,000 relationships. And his jaw hit the ground. He's like, you're really good. And I said, thank you. And an hour later, I walked out of that meeting with an order for a thousand knife sets. I thought Cutco was going to pat me on the back. I get a phone call from the cfo and they think I stole a credit card to order these knife sets to sell them on ebay. And they're like, interrogating me, like, what are you doing with these knife sets? I'm like, I sold them to a company. Like, why would a company buy a thousand knife sets? I'm like, you're not in the knife business. You're really like, we're using gratitude and generosity to help people drive referrals and retention and access. And they're like, what are you talking about? Like, we make knives. So they fought me for a couple years, but by the time I was a senior in college, I had started this get done for you gifting agency. And out of 1.5 million sales reps that Cutco's worked with over 70 years, we became their number one in the history of the company. So when people read the book or they hear me hear about the concept, they're like, oh, gifting, that's woo woo. That's warm and fuzzy. Like, who cares? I'm like, you're right. It doesn't matter. But if you get really good at showing up very boldly and very thoughtfully with your relationships, that's where you get people to want to reciprocate and open doors and refer business and go out of their way to advocate for you. So for 20 years, this, you know, goat milk and farm boy has been gaining access and teaching from solopreneur practitioners all the way up to Google and the Chicago Cubs and some of the biggest companies in the world. On saying, like, if you send out all your most important relationships, you send a bunch of peanut brittle and brownies. That's your way of showing gratitude. That's not gratitude. That's just to check the box. You should be thinking about how to show up powerfully for your relationships, how to send them something that's a practical luxury, how to include their family and their spouse. If you say you're the Ritz Carlton of whether it's dentistry or whether it's widget manufacturing. What you send to somebody either communicates that you value them and you're congruent in your values, or I just wanted to get something off of my list and I felt like I had to send you something because it was Christmas. So a lot of what I'm teaching to this day and what our agency is doing to this day is I learned 20 years ago from this small country attorney in Ohio.

Wow. So some things never change. Or this is like priceless wisdom and timeless wisdom.

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, if you look at like the Old Testament, you know, in like the Bible and old scripture and old, like scrolls, like Proverbs 18:16, which was written, you know, 5,000 years ago, a gift ushers you before kings. So people are like, john, you've revolutionized this whole thing. This is all your idea. I'm like, no. Like, I'm just putting a spotlight on these old world truths that have been around for thousands or tens of thousands of years. Like, like, if you do something boldly and kindly and generously for somebody, guess what? Whether you believe in a God or the universe, like, we're wired to want to reciprocate. We're wired to be tribal. We're wired when somebody does something not manipulative, when they actually pour into us, we want to do nice things back. Like, that's just how we're wired. So, yeah, I mean, it started 20 years ago, but really, as I've read other things and evolved, like, I've realized, like, yes, we're the ones that kind of put a system with it and kind of put a nice shiny bow on it. But really, like, the idea of being radically generous with your relationships and showing up for people powerfully. And if, if a relationship is valuable, like, if you look over into like China or Taiwan or Japan, like, even how you hand somebody a business card matters because they realize that that is a sign of respect. And over there they would might give a gift for, you know, they might buy a million dollar watch for one of their relationships because that's the value of that relationship. In Western culture, we're very, like, we say we're relationship driven, but really the only times we give gifts are at transactional times. You gave me a check, here's your gift. You gave me a referral. Here's your gift. It's Christmas. Out of obligation, I got to give you a gift. The timing of the gift matters just as much as what you're giving. And so many people only do things out of obligatory or expected times. I'm like, if you show up for people, you know, for your spouse only at anniversaries, birthdays, and Christmas, those are like, table stakes. You start showing up for your spouse on random Tuesdays, the relationship flourishes because you're doing it because you want to, not because you had to. So a lot of what I'm teaching isn't rocket science, but the recipe, the system. Like, it works whether in Idaho or Canada or Africa because it's tied to humanity. It's very simple truths. But most cut corners, and they leave things out, and they don't realize that what they're doing is basically communicating that the other person doesn't matter. They're actually spending money to communicate that the other person doesn't matter. That's not a good investment as a business owner, as a leader. And so it's not rocket science. But a lot of the things that I'm talking about, yeah, they've been around for not just 20 years, they've been around for thousands of years.

I love that. So, you know the questions popping up for me. What is the best gift you've ever received? And what is the worst gift you've ever received?

Well, I would say I'm very fortunate to receive a lot of amazing gifts. And I think that, you know, my wife will tell you I'm the most difficult person to send a gift to because it's hard for me not to be dissecting something that's coming through. But if somebody sends something or does something for me, that's amazing. A lot of the best gifts that I do for people now or that our agency does have come from somebody gifting it to me. One of the ones that comes up for me is I used to make fun of coffee mugs as being the worst corporate gift on the planet. Like, people think they're cute because they put Hershey Kisses inside a corporate coffee mug from China with their logo on it. Like, it's the most unthoughtful thing on the planet. Same with water bottles. Like, you can only drink out of one water bottle at a time. And people think, oh, I gave water bottles. Like, the amount of people that have their cupboards just filled with, like, crap. We don't need more crap. We don't need more stuff. So the long story short is this artist reached out to me, sent me an email, said, I want to give you a gift to bless your wife. Will you answer these seven questions? And I'm like, he's using my playbook against me. All right. I look him Up. He looks like he's 16 online. I'm like, all right, I'll play. So I answer the questions, emails me back. He's like, john, the gift's done. I want to hand deliver it to you. I'm like, he wants FaceTime. All right, I'll play. So I set up for a public place in case he's like a stalker. And in walks this kid carrying, like this Tupperware container. I'm thinking there's like claw marks on the side. I'm like, is there an animal inside? This is getting weird. And. And he's like. He tells me he's from Georgia. He's just got married, just graduated from art school a couple years ago, is expecting his first kid. His wife's a senior in college, works at Chick Fil A. They're just like this salt of the earth, country bumpkin kid. And so he opens up this thing and pulls out $2,000 mugs. And the reason our thousand dollars is carved into them is my whole life story. Core values, faith, family, tragedy overcome. It's like a lifetime achievement award in this functional piece of art. And the same for my wife. It's like her on the farm with her dad who passed away cancer, 14 years ago. And like, instantly, I'm crying over a stupid mug. And so then he pulls out two vases. One is every Bible verse, old and New Testament that talks about generosity, gifting or giving handwritten into this, like, $2,500 vase. And another one that's my wife and I's whole life story together, like, over the last 10 years. I'm like, dude, who are you? Like, I was just like. Just melted my face off. And he was like, you know, I feel like God's called me to be a gift maker. I make these pieces. You can't order them for yourself. You can only order them as a gift. And when I read giftology and listen to all your interviews, I felt like God was telling me I need to partner with you. I'm like, dude, you're crazy. But you're crazy. Like I'm crazy. So we leave there, he driven nine and a half hours, by the way, for a five minute meeting, which is something I would do. And I go home, I show my wife, she cries. She's like, where's this guy staying at? And I said, I'm getting him hotel. And she's like, is he crazy? And I'm like, he's crazy. Like I'm crazy. And my wife's super private. We got four daughters, and she's like, well, he has to stay with us. So he comes. I have my. I call him like, hey, do you want to stay at our house? He's like, that makes the story even better. I'm like, it sure does. So he comes over. We talked like two in the morning. And so these crazy artifact mugs and vases and jars we've now gifted to billionaires and had billionaires cry receiving them, not because they couldn't afford it. It's because we all crave acknowledgement. We all crave to have a legacy. We all crave for our lives to have mattered. And when you give something to somebody that makes them feel seen, I don't care if they're a janitor or CEO. When I got it, I was like, wow, this is like what I've been building for a long time. My life's legacy put into a piece that I can drink coffee or tea out of every single day. So, like, I've had mentors that. I've made it for that. You know, I've given out 135 of these over the last two years, just personally. And then clients are giving them out or whatever else. And most of the time, people cry. And like, mentors of mine are like, john, this is more valuable than my $50,000 watch. I can replace my watch. This is irreplaceable. This is like. This encapsulates all. Everything I'm about. So it's not about outspending people. It's about being like. People will use the lame excuse of, oh, John, it's the thought that counts. I'm like, no, that's bs. Like, it's the thoughtful thought that counts. Most people, when they say, this is a token of my appreciation, it's an excuse to give a lame gift. Because you would never call that relationship a token relationship. You'd say, it's a valuable relationship, an important relationship, a VIP relationship. But token. I hate the word token. It's like a swear word in our company. Like you would. It's such a horrible way to gift somebody and say, it's a token. It basically means, I gave you a sucky gift. And so. But you give somebody an artifact of the relationship, an artifact of appreciation. An artifact signifies story and usefulness and meaning and thought put into it. Like, we don't need more stuff. But I will never get rid of that mug. And neither will anybody that's received one because of the story. The usefulness, the thoughtfulness, the meaning that's put into the piece. So that's One of my favorite gifts that I've ever received by far, and it's been also one of my favorite things to give.

I love that it's such a. I mean, it's one of those things that nobody. Nobody, under any circumstances would throw that away. It's like, almost like their wedding. Wedding band, right?

It is, yeah. It's like. It's not about the cost of the metal. You know, anybody can afford a gold. You know, a gold ring or whatever. It's like. It's the meaning. It's the story. It's the. It's the thoughts that are attached to that trigger. That's where people don't understand. Like, you know, they'll gift food and they'll gift all these things. I'm like, there's nothing wrong with food. But you get one impression. If I give something like the mug or the knife or the whatever that gets used every day, every time they use it subconsciously, they're triggering the memory of who gave it to them, the relationship. There's power in that subconsciously to be able to have anchors that remind people that there's somebody that cares about them and that becomes, like, to your cheer point. People like the New York Times will say, john, what's the hot, new sexy gift? I'm like, the stupid knives and this mug and this. They're like, knives. I'm like, you don't understand. We have relationships, and our clients have relationships all over the world that every day they're using this artifact. And you want get. You want to get more referrals. You need to be liked, trusted, and top of mind. Most people don't have anchors and artifacts that are triggering memories and thoughts within these relationships that are important to them, whether it's a patient, whether it's the center of influence, whether it's a family member. And so there's so much that people are like, oh, I'm top of mind because I gave a flashlight with a logo on it. Like, flashlight isn't evoking emotion. It might have. Like, maybe it's in their drawer somewhere. But you give something to somebody that they're using every single day that's tied to a story and meaning and thoughtfulness and. And all of those sorts of things. That person is, even subconsciously is remembering who they are, you know, day in and day out and over, over the course of a decade. If somebody thinks of you one time a day, that's 3,600 thoughts. That's 3,600 times that they were top of mind with their Inner circle, breaking bread and having food. And so it sounds silly. Like really gifting and giftology. Like I'm like, it's not about that. It's about the relationship. It's about the referrals. It's about, you know, if you want to grow, you need people and you need to be able to connect with people at that heart level. Which sounds woo woo, but it's real. In business, we all know if we like at a gut level somebody or not, if we trust somebody, if we feel good about somebody. And that gut feeling controls everything in relationships. It controls everything in companies. Does that person have my back or not and care about me or are they just out for themselves? And so simple concept, but most people don't have a system and a thought process and a plan of how they're going to execute on this sort of simple idea.

I get so much junk, stuff like that. And it makes me want to. I can already think of a few people, we'll talk about this afterwards. But a few groups that I think would really benefit from this knowledge. Because you might pay 20, $30,000 to be part of a group and you get a whole bunch of junk. Then you're just like, what do I do with this? I think all of us probably have that cabinet full of water bottles that you get it and you're like, what's the environmentally correct thing to do? Because I only need one water bottle, I don't need a thousand of them. And then you feel guilty about throwing it away because how could this just end up in the garbage? So yeah, I can totally relate to that. And it's really interesting. You talk about the transactional piece of things. We do send our clients what I think is a very thoughtful welcome package. And one thing I noticed that in a group that I belong to, when I joined the group, I got, I got a kind of a cheesy like welcome package. And that kind of triggered me to think like, oh my God, I spent all this. I would have rather not receive something from them than what I got. And then when I didn't rejoin the group, I actually got a better gift for not joining as part of their kind of a way to bring me back in. So that was kind of interesting just from my own personal experiences.

Yeah, well, people do. People invest way more in prospects and in people that tell them no than the people. Like it's, it's, it's bass ackwards. It doesn't make zero sense. You should be. Everybody gets excited about sending their whale prospects and all these other people a gift. I'm like, if you would just go love on the relationships that you don't have to send a gift to, but you chose to and wanted to, you would inspire them to go out and advocate. And five words from them is more than 5,000 words from you. But so many people want to invest in people outside their boat. I'm like, don't start there. Take 80% of your biz dev and HR and marketing dollars and take care of the people that already there's a little fire there burning and make that a big fire. Like that's like our biggest. Like we got paid back in February. I was begging to be on stage seven years ago and because of a relationship I invested 20 grand in over a decade. Last February in Australia, we got paid 85 grand for a 60 minute keynote that included books and travel and whatever else. The reason we landed it wasn't because of my sales pitch. It was because somebody else went out and advocated for me to that client. And so many people miss out on inspiring their warm network to go. Be not just like retained client is fine, but I would much rather have one active loyalist than 100 people that sit on their hands. Most people have people that are patients or clients that will stick around. But one person who's an active loyalist is going out of their way to have active, you know, even sometimes awkward conversations on behalf of whoever the relationship and to get people. I mean Tim Ferriss calls it true fans. He would rather have 100 true fans than a million followers. Million followers, a million, whatever, who cares? But you get somebody that's like bought in as a loyalist that I call it active loyalty that will run through walls for you. That's powerful because you got somebody that's really like my relationship with Cameron Herald. He's from Canada, he's written five or six books. He's in genius and probably some of the same groups that we run in some of the same circles. Sachin and I couldn't hire him for $2 million to be a sales rep. He wouldn't do it. But I invested 20 grand in him over 10 years and because of that, like my first gift to him was I found out he loved Brooks Brothers and when I invited him to dinner and a ballgame, he could give two rips about the dinner and the ball game because it's the same thing everybody does. I outfitted his hotel room when he came to Cleveland with $7,000 in Brooks Brothers clothes that were all in his size. When he went up to his room. He came back down to the lobby, and he's like, john, whatever you want to talk about for as long as you want to talk about it, I'm all yours. The reason that we've been able to land the stages and the influence that we have is guys like Cameron will go out and sell on my behalf off of my payroll, but they go out and close their clients. They go out and close when they're. When Cameron's double booked. My first $20,000 speaking engagement came from Cameron because they said, you know, Cameron's like, just book this John Rulin guy. And they're like, who's John Rulin? And I didn't have a book. I didn't have any of that. But because Cameron became an active loyalist, he's done. I did the math the other day. It's multi seven figures that he's referred to us. And so you do the math. 20 grand sounds like a lot over a decade. That's two grand a year. But 20 grand to get seven figures in business, I'm not a math genius, but that's a 50x return on relationship. You're not going to get that from Facebook ads. You're not going to get that from tchotchkes and sponsoring things. There's nothing wrong with the traditional marketing. But to me, if you can go inspire people to be sales reps on your behalf, that's like the ROI and the ROR start to get to be where it's 100x, 1000x. It's crazy. If you're willing to play the long game. Most people's long game is days, not decades. And so it's fun and sexy to talk about the long game. But most people, it's like, I want to send a gift, and then I want something back next month. That's not a gift. That was a manipulation. And so, so many people will challenge me and be like, john, I did giftology. It didn't work. And I'm like, did you follow the recipe? And they're like, well, I did giftology. Ish. I'm like, it's like baking bread. You could make it. You could bake bread 10,000 times in a row, but if you don't put yeast in, guess what you don't get? You don't get bread. And so the little things in relationships are what either make somebody say, wow, I got to. I gotta go be. I want to be in this person's corner, or most people are lukewarm. Yeah, I like the product. Yeah, I kind of like the Service. Yeah, I kind of like the treatment. But you get somebody that's like, I want to see that person succeed. I will not rest until I get them 10 clients. Those like, that doesn't happen on accident. And you can't give amazing gifts and be generous and have sucky service or sucky practice or sucky product. You have to have the Ritz Carlton level. Like, you have to be great at what you do. And then when you add the little, like, sprinkles on top the sundae, people are like, holy crap, they did this. They already wowed me. And then they did this, this, and this. That's where they'll talk about the little things. Even more so than the practice, because you've delivered at this level over here where they kind of expected it. They expect, if you're a doctor, that you're going to help them or if you have a product that's going to be good or that if you have a service that's going to be good, like, there's an expectation there. It's when you do the things that are unexpected that somebody's like, oh, my gosh, like Cameron taking him out to dinner in a ball game expected. That's table stakes for business. You show up with the Brooks Brothers in his size. I didn't give him a gift card for 200 bucks and say, go buy your own shirt. I took all of the guesswork out and created an experience. And then he got to keep the clothes that he picked out. That's how you get somebody that 20 years from now, still can't stop talking about you. From stages and on podcasts and platforms. It doesn't happen on accident. It happens because you're intentional with it and you are willing to reinvest. For us, it's 10 to 15% of net profits back into relationships. It's a math equation. It's I get to keep 80 or 90%, but I'm going to reinvest 10% back into my relationships. It's not, I'm going to keep everything and I'm going to have a marketing budget. No, you put a dollar in. If you do that over time, over years and decades, and pour into people that way, that's where like, it starts to come back. 10x20x50x100x. But it doesn't happen on accident.

I love the intentionality behind it. I think that's the most important part, is the thoughtful, thoughtful gift. Right. So I know I'd like to save time for some questions. And I know the question that's coming up for me. Just if you could perhaps make some suggestions. And I know that it's going to be individualized for each person and each relationship, but what's coming up for me are what are some thoughtful gifts like in the 10 to $50 range, in the $50 to $100 range. Because some of us might be starting up in business or we might just be new to this concept or maybe our deals aren't going to be $85,000 speaking engagements. Right. They might be $1000 clients or $1500 clients. So maybe you could make some suggestions for us, things that we can start looking at that might be valuable, gifts that we can give our clients that are thoughtful.

Yeah. What I would say is that the timing of the gift makes it as thoughtful as anything. Like a sucky gift given at a thoughtful time can actually have more impact than an amazing gift given at an expected time. And what I mean by that is if you do things, you know, the same way everybody else does in your industry, I don't care what your industry is. We all have kind of like, this is what things should do and feel like and whatever else. And even a hand, like, we won't allow gifts to go out of our agency when somebody hires us to do all their gifting for them. One of the things that has to go with every single gift is a handwritten note. And people are like, ah, can't we just automate this on Amazon? And I'm like, do you think relationships are automated? Like, you want to inspire somebody with automation? That's not how it works. Like, yes, you can do heavy lifting and have plans and be proactive, but the handwritten note provides context. It provides meaning. It provides. It's from one human to another human. And so to the point where we do. I send out a couple thousand handwritten notes every year that are on a sheet of steel. It's literally a sheet of steel. If you've seen the metal business cards, it's like that blown up. It cost us nine bucks. It's $3 for the shipping, so 12 bucks. But when somebody gets a handwritten note anymore, it's rare. If it's really thoughtful handwritten note, it's super rare. And if it's on a material or a medium that they've never seen before, now all of a sudden it's a piece of art. I've seen people frame these metal handwritten notes they pass around the office and it costs nine bucks. The reason it works is Seth Godin's concept of the purple cow. Most people, a handwritten note's rare. And the idea of a purple cow is like, it's still a cow. It's just because it's purple, it's remarkable. It's a story worth telling. So I would look in every practice or every firm or every company and say, where are all the areas that everybody's having, like a pissing match of like, oh, my Facebook ad budgets $200 more than yours? Or you go to a conference or trade show and my sign's a little bit bigger. Most people are doing incremental changes and having the same, like, my thing is better than your thing, and it's 1 or 2% better, which is negligible. It's noise. Whereas if you can take an area like a handwritten note. Most people don't do a handwritten note. And if they do, it's on like 2 cent letterhead and you put it on something that's 10,000% better. Now all of a sudden, it's a story worth telling and you only spent nine bucks. Like, in our industry, people are like, john, I want your catalog. I'm like, we don't have a catalog. Our giftologist picked a gift for you. We're a concierge service. And so most people would have a catalog that cost 20, 30, $40. I'll spend $9 on a handwritten note that melts people's faces off, and I'll save $30 per relationship by not having a catalog. I'll invest it in an area that. So we recommend directing dollars towards things where most people do it at a cheap level or not at all, versus having this pissing match over here where it's like trying to compete. It's like the red ocean concept. I'd rather be in the blue ocean versus the red ocean. And so it's not really so much about the what. That's where people get hung up. Like, John, I want the what. And I'm like, the what is like the seventh step. Like, the who is way more important than the what. And so when we're walking people through what we call a relationship plan, whether it's a solopreneur or whether it's the Cubs, we take them through the same planning process. We charge thousands of dollars to identify and segment who are they gifting to? Do you know their spouse's name? Do you know their kids names? Do you know their pets names? No. Then you need. You got a lot of homework to do. Because the who is more important than the what. And that goes for clients, it goes for employees, it goes for centers of influence. Why? Because they're all just humans and all humans have inner circles and all humans have certain things that are common amongst being a human. And we don't know the data, we don't know their spouse's name, we don't know their pets names. Well, if you don't have that data on the who, then the what is not going to land well. So if you guys want to go download what we charge tens of thousands to go walk through companies through, you go to giftology system.com you can download our entire blueprint, our playbook, how to think about the who. And then you start to get to how much should we invest? And then you get to why are we sending this gift? And then you get to what's the frequency? How many times per year should we touch this person? And eventually we give you some ideas on what the what. But the what will not, will never. Like, people try to duplicate the knives and they come back and like the knife didn't work. I'm like, you didn't do all the homework and the heavy lifting on the front end to make it land well. You tried to copy the tactic, the widget. It doesn't work unless you have the emotion, the intention, the data, the spouse's name, the handwritten note. Like you can't copy. It's not a tactical thing. This is like a, if you're a giver, you have the right heart set, the right mindset, you want to build relationships, you have the right practice, then you have to follow the system, you have to follow the recipe. If you try to short circuit it and just say, I want the what without the who, then you're never going to get the results that you're looking for because you tried to cut corners and relationships take some, some heavy lifting, they take some intentionality, they take some time. And so the knives are still to this day one of our most popular gifts by far. And in 2020, Cutco, which is a $300 million company, they can't make knives fast enough. And the reason is people are spending more time at home cooking, whether they want to or not. Like the home has become even more crucial. I've been preaching the home for all you know for a long time. Don't send bourbon and golf stuff. Take care of the home. Take care of the people at the home. Take care of the inner circle, take care of the family. That's where you can be unique and memorable and spend less money to have 100 times more impact. So our messaging hasn't changed for 20 years, but in 2020, because of the insanity of how people are responding to this, which I don't know how you guys feel, but I think it's nuts. But it's actually helped our business because the things that we've been preaching all along of take care of the family, take care of the inner circle, take care of the home. Give something. If you're. If you're into health and wellness and you give somebody something with a bunch of sugar in it, that's not congruent. Like, how about you give them a best in class tool that they can Give them a Vitamix. Give them something that they can use with their family that is going to actually promote wellness and health. Don't give them, like, some tchotchke piece of crap from China with your logo on it that's not congruent with who you say you are. And so I see so many people, they don't realize that. They think, oh, I just got to do this marketing thing. I'm like, no. Like, that's not what it's about. Like, it's about how do I stand out with this relationship and show them that what I say out of my mouth and what I talk about is actually congruent with what I'm giving. And if it ends up in Goodwill or in a landfill, that's not very green, and that's not very world class, and that's not very different. You know, it's hard. You give somebody, you know, a handwritten note on a $9 piece of steel. Like, now there's like, that's worth keeping. That's worth talking about because it's unique and special, and it took intentionality. So I'm not trying to shortchange the question and say, you know, like, there's no gifts between $10 and $50. But I think until people do the heavy lifting on the front end. The what? The delivery vehicle of the knives, even, or the mug. Like, I see people try to shortchange the mug, and they give these generic answers. The clay itself is worth 14 bucks. The reason it's worth $1,000 is because of the thoughtfulness and the meaning and the story and the depth. It's the 5% that most people don't know about somebody. That's what makes it meaningful. Like, the mug itself is like. I mean, it's just a piece of clay. So I don't know if that provides a little bit of framework and kind of understanding of, like, how to think about this strategically, but it's not a, you know, it's not check the box and it's not just go pick something cool. It has nothing to do with that.

Okay. I love that. Great answer. And that's, you know, being in the functional medicine world, this is like functional gifting. Right. It's unique to the person, unique to the relationship, unique to the circumstances. And I love the idea of not making it so seasonal, like, so predictable as well, because people are expecting something and that doesn't mean that you don't do something nice for them and put a lot of thought into it and effort into it. But doing it throughout the year when they're least expecting it, I think is, is a great strategy as well. And Gabriel's writing this is a holistic approach to gifting. Yeah, I mean, you know, John and I really hit it off and I'm so excited that he's here and sharing this wisdom with us and you can tell how passionate he is about this. I do have a question, and you don't have to answer this, but what are you getting your wife this holiday season? Because I'm still like hunting for something and I know that I'm not going to get her the same thing that you're going to get your wife. I'm just curious, like, what's the thought process process that goes into that? Maybe you can walk me through that so that we can all become more thoughtful gifters.

Yeah. So what I'd say is that I'm difficult to buy a gift for my wife. Being married to the giftologist is even more difficult. She knows all of my strategies, my principles. There's no like, oh, just because you're the gift. Like, she's the most difficult person, way more difficult than any of our clients because she knows all of my flaws, all of my, like, it's, you know, it's like any other spouse. Like, she knows behind the curtain, like my go tos and whatever else. What else I'll share. I'm still working, you know, it's a year round process, not just for Christmas, but for like, you know, showing up as a surprise. So what I'll share is what I did for her birthday, which is in July, because I think this will help. So my wife and I both grew up on farms. She grew up in Illinois on 4,000 acres, corn and soybean, blah, blah, blah. And one of her favorite things was to go to the state fair and state fair in Illinois. Like, there's certain things that were just like iconic. And the fair Got canceled this year, so we couldn't go travel, we couldn't do these different things. And so I'm like, she loves the fair. What can I do that would make this a really, really meaningful birthday for her? Because we just had our fourth little one. And so I'm like, you know what? I'm going to recreate the fair and I'm going to involve my three of my four little girls in the fair creation process. So one of the things for the fair is like, they take £1,000 of butter and carve it into what's called a butter cow. If you're not from the Midwest and whatever else, that seems really weird, but they actually create art out of butter. And it's like literally a thousand pounds in a glass case that's refrigerated. And it's pretty cool. And she loved growing up, that was a big deal to go to the fair once a year and see this and get a certain treat and all those other things. So I got 10 pounds of butter, and each of my three of my four girls carve mini butter cows that did, without her knowing about it, hit them in the freezer, all this kind of stuff in the deep freeze. And then she liked a certain kind of taffy from the fair. I tracked down what the taffy was, had that shipped in, had that ready. The tractor pools were a big deal. So we had one of the little tractors. We had our own little tractor pool with our daughter. So I recreated the fair experience for her. And then the last thing I did that took it over the top had nothing to do with the fair. A lot of times we gift and we give gifts the way we like to receive them. So if somebody wants a gift that we think is dumb because we would never want it, we tend to hold back and not do that for our spouse or really our clients. Because if we like steak, we give steaks. If we like wine, we give wine. If we're vegetarian, we give vegetarian gifts. Because we shop with our own eyes. A gift by its nature is recipient focused. It's not us. And so my girls and my wife, I don't have a TikTok account, but they think it's fun to recreate these dances on TikTok. And my wife, eight months ago in passing is like, I would love it if you would do a TikTok video with the girls. And in particular, at the time, it was a Justin Bieber one. So without her knowing about it, I got a TikTok account and had it private and started. And I get up at 5am to do sauna and all these different things. I started practicing this Justin Bieber dance TikTok. And so the exclamation point, after we recreated the fair, I said, I got one more gift for you. And I pulled it out and showed it to not only my wife, but my daughters. They just melted down. They freaked out. They're like, oh, my gosh. And it was me with the hoodie and the little beanie cap down in our, like, workout room recreating the Justin Bieber TikTok, which is still to this day, nobody has seen outside of my family because I'm not a dancer. But she. I mean, it melted her. So that's an over the top. You know, you don't have to go to that necessarily that level every single time. There's some times where I give the gift and Lindsay's like, you missed the mark. You know, I didn't like that or whatever. The other thing that I did a few years ago that was a home run was similar to the Cameron Herald story with the Brooks Brothers. I'm like, my wife wants to go shopping and she's got kids always pulling at her. She's always rushed, even when she's by herself. And she never can really just enjoy. Like, she's a person who, like, the surroundings are important to her and like, being able to be relaxed as you shop for her is a big deal and be in a good environment and not be rushed to get back home. So I went to Lululemon in Athleta, two of her favorite stores, and I got probably three grand worth of clothing in her size from the places and outfit. Our guest bedroom had a bottle of wine, said, hey, you can try on as much and keep as much or get no attachment. You can get it, send it all back, keep it all, I don't care. Enjoy a bottle of wine. I'm taking the girls out of the house and we will not be back for hours. And that was a huge thing. Not just because of, I mean, the clothing, but it was the thought of, like, I see and understand that this is a struggle for you and there's times, right, like, in my head that much for Lululemon doesn't make sense. Or it doesn't make sense. Like, I can shop and like, I don't care if the kids are around. Like, that doesn't feel like pressure to me. It doesn't. But for her it does. And so rather than saying that doesn't make sense, you can choose to see the other person and what's important to them. And when you can build out the experience around all about what they would want, not about what you think is rational or reasonable or understandable, like, that will make whatever the item is or whatever it is, like, worth a thousand times. Because, you know, it's like the five love languages. We tend to give gifts the way we like to receive them and give love the way we like to receive love. And oftentimes we marry the opposite. And there's a disconnect there because we're trying to force the way that we like it for them. And that's never going to work.

I love that my wife is actually on this call, so I can't. I've got to really step it up here.

Sorry, Sorry, Sasha.

That's totally all right. She totally deserves it. Like, one thing I will say, and then we'll open it up for questions, is like, speaking of love languages, for somebody whose love language may not be. I mean, you know, obviously that's 1 in 20 chance, right? But, like, if I buy. If I'm. The worst thing I guess I do is I probably ask her what she wants, right? That's like. That's probably like giftology rule. Like, no, no, number one, right? Don't ask people what they want.

No. Well, I think that if you know somebody well and you. I mean, it's one thing for a client. The reason that we focus on business gifting is that the bar is super low. Even if somebody's not a tangible gift giver or receiver or that's not their love language. But you take words of affirmation, which is the handwritten note, combine it with a gift, include their inner circle. Like, all of a sudden you start overlapping them. And the bar is like, most people are, like I said, a negative three. They think they're a seven. They're negative three. So if you just get to, like, to be a 3 out of 10, you're better than 99.9% of people in the corporate world. But in your personal world, like, you better be striving to be a 10, because, like, you're spending time with one human. And people will be like, john, like, you know, like, how do you. Can you help me with my 50th anniversary gift? I'm like, no, you're screwed. Like, you should have been listening the last 50 years. Like, this isn't like you can't outsource your interpersonal gifting. You might be able to outsource some of your business gifting because there are certain. Because the bar is low. And there's certain principles, but ironically enough, like, my love language isn't gifts. Mine is words of affirmation. But I'm also an introvert. And when I send somebody a gift or give somebody a gift, guess what I get back? Words of affirmation. And because I'm an introvert, now, they're motivated to go find me out and engage in the conversation. So early on in my business, I used gifts as a way to get around the fact that I was an introvert and that I wasn't the life of the party or the event or the networking circles or the whatever. And I'm a farm kid, so I'm like, you know, like, I'm already insecure that I don't even really deserve to be here because, like, I was milking goats a few years ago. So I use gifting as kind of like my way to like, it was my purple cow. So what I'd say is that, you know, for interpersonal gifting, you should be thinking about it year round and making notes just on your phone, just the notes app or whatever of what they're complaining about, what they love, what they're passionate about, and doing a little like Pink Panther sleuthing. You might have to reach out to the person's best friend or some people around them in case, or go check out their Facebook or their Instagram or their Pinterest or whatever. But if you're paying attention and listening and watching what lights them up or what pisses them off or what frustrates them and then start to understand which. Which of their love languages is it? Is it acts of service? Because I do think that you can combine, like for my wife's, hers is quality time. That's her love language. So it doesn't mean that she, you know, I got people like, oh, my. My love language is acts of service. That means I'm off the hook from buying gifts. No, it just means that you might need to combine an element of one with the other. And it doesn't mean that we don't care about the other four. It just means that we have a primary, but yet we're all kind of wired to. And if you get creative and thoughtful and how you blend them or how you do them, and then showing up on random Tuesdays versus just anniversaries, birthdays, Valentine's Day and Christmas, then you start to like, see, like, oh man, if I, if I did the love language, but I also did as a surprise at this point in time, that's where things Start to get, you know, like exponential. We're like, oh my gosh, like, you understand what, what I care about. You understand that I love surprises or my wife hates surprises. So a lot of the stuff that I do is like, hey, next Tuesday we're going to be doing this thing. And here's the like. Because she doesn't like surprises. I tried to do, you know, it's in the book, but I tried to create this crazy engagement for her thinking. And when I realized, I almost died during it, by the way. So it was like her worst nightmare come to life. Like, I tried to recreate a movie like the movie the Notebook. And I realized I did the entire experience because I love surprises. And I made the gift about myself even in the engagement and almost ruined it by dying trying to recreate this movie. And, you know, like, the gift by its very nature has to be about all about them, not about you. And most people, especially guys, are the worst at this. We want to look cool. We have ego tied into it. We have our identity tied into it. We shop with our own eyes. Like, guys are the worst at it by far. Just based upon, I think, how we're naturally wired and about, you know, society, whatever else. Like, we get so myopic in things and very linear. We want to check a box and move on to the next thing. And that's not how relationships work.

Thank you. That's so great. Does anyone have questions? Gabriel was kind enough to write everything, take some notes and share them in the chat. Thank you for that, Gabriel. I appreciate that. Krista says, brilliant. I think we've all picked up at least one, two, maybe five things that allow us to up level some of our relationships and thoughtfulness in our relationships. Any questions? Anyone want to unmute themselves and ask John a question? This is a great opportunity.

Aaron, go ahead. Hey John, this is Aaron and I had a question about how you discover this information. Because it's one thing to know what the different love languages are, but how do you, like, you just say, hey, what's your love language? I mean, there's ways to investigate, but what are some more casual ways to figure that out? Or it's just a matter of asking, are you talking about for a spouse or significant other or a client? I think, well, a spouse I feel like we could figure out, but with the client it might be a little harder if you don't have that type of intimacy. Yeah, well, I think that, you know, finding out from the people around them. So a lot of times I build relationship with spouses or assistants. Not just because I think it's important to honor those people who aren't typically included, but you can ask in a roundabout way and find out from that person what makes them tick and what their love language is or what they really value. What I would say is on the client side is that like I said before, the bar is really low. And what we found is that on the corporate side, if I combine a handwritten note with a world class artifact, include somebody's spouse, I can do that to 10,000 people and have 95% of the people be like, this is the most thoughtful thing anybody's ever. I did the knives for Google for 20 executive or 20 people at Google, one knife, it's like $150 gift. The feedback I got back was in eight years in working for Google, this is the nicest gift I've ever received. And as I dove down into it, it was like, well, it didn't have the Google logo on it. There was a handwritten note. It was something useful. They had their name on it. It was personal to them and it was useful. And it wasn't corporate speak. It wasn't, didn't feel. So I think that it's one thing, I think sometimes people, especially on the corporate side, they'll get hung up on I don't know the love language or I don't know this. And then that really shuts them down from ever. Like starting the process of saying, well, let's start with 10 relationships or 2 relationships or 100 relationships or whatever. And let's take these principles that we do know. We do know that everybody loves to get a handwritten note for the most part. We do know that everybody loves their name. We do know that everybody wants to include and honor their significant other or spouse or family. So there are certain things that are universal amongst humanity at least nine out of ten times. And that's really what we're trying to do. Things that it'd be great if you could personalize every single gift for every single client, but that's not possible. So the goal is, what's the recipe that we can follow so we can scale thoughtfulness so it's not the trinkets and swag, but it's also not the $7,000 Brooks Brothers experience for every single person because that's not doable. We don't do that either. My gifting budget this year personally will be about 600 grand. I send out $450,000 in knives, which sounds insane, but I'm personalizing That to every single person. So, like, a client reached out to us wanting to do a gift for Tony Robbins and Sage. And I said, we're going to do knives. And they're like, really? We're going to do knives? I said, it's not about the knives. This $6,000 knife set, the big, huge one. All we're going to take 64 quotes of Tony's most impactful quotes of wisdom, and we're going to engrave all of the blades with his wisdom, and then we're going to put it inside this crazy strong box. It's made out of walnut wood, has a custom video screen built in. So we're going to send them an $8,000 package, and you're going to say you're going to put on video why? Tony's life is what it's meant to you and your business, your family. And that got sent off. And Tony's wife, Sage, called the client, my client, and said, this was the most thoughtful gift anybody's ever sent us. This was like, you know, like his kid. Like an instant heirloom our kids and grandkids are going to fight over. Not because we couldn't go buy the knives. It was the meaning behind it. So, Aaron, what I would say is, yes, it's great to know love languages and whatever else, but I think if you take the different parts of the system and the recipe and apply it consistently to relationships, and you can get 80% of the people to be like, wow, this is one of the most thoughtful things anybody's ever done. For me, you may have a few that miss the mark, but I remind people, like, nobody's dying. Puppies didn't get killed. Nobody went to jail. If you give out a thousand gifts and 800 of them land and 200 of them are just, okay, that's okay. Most people aren't even getting 2% of their things to land. And so for us, there is a hybrid between being the most thoughtful person on the planet but also getting to the point where you actually do something that has some impact versus trying to make it perfect. I think a lot of times people are like, I don't want to do it until it's perfect. I'm like, I get that feeling. I'm that same way, too. But we have to start taking actions towards that. And there are certain things that if you start to combine them, you're gonna just rise above. So far, anybody else that's in your industry, because so many people are not even attempting or trying. They're just checking A box.

Cool.

Appreciate it. Think 80, 20. Right? That's the lesson. 100%. Yep, I agree.

All right, is there. We'll take one more if anyone's got one. I want to honor John's time as well.

Yes, I would have one.

Okay, go ahead, Jay.

Hi, John. What would you talk about? Gifting versus your own values? I know you said that we really have to get into consideration the receiver. But for instance, we as functional medicine practitioner, we kind of value health. So I'm kind of in a hinge when someone's really value receiving things seen as unhealthy. So I have some top of mind people that I can think of that really like to receive like unhealthy things or food or things like that. Would you still go with that kind of gift or try to find a way around and respect your values when gifting? Yeah, so I would say that it should, it needs to land with them, but it also has to be congruent with what you're teaching. So I would try to find the overlap. And it might be small where it lands, but it also is. And so maybe it's, if it's, you know, they love alcohol, maybe it's finding the non alcoholic, healthy version of something that's their favorite, you know, whiskey or whatever, but it's a non alcoholic version of it or a, you know, if it's whatever, it's the, you know, it's the bitters that could be mixed with a drink that, you know, you could make a version that's way more healthy that if somebody's going to consume it occasionally that it's, it's in alignment with what you would teach because it's like anything else like that. Obviously in a perfect world we would never consume, you know, ever consume alcohol, never consume this, this, that. Like there's so many things that are bad for us, but if we do 95% of the things right and occasionally do something that's different than. So I do think that there's, you know, there's a gray area there and I do think that there's ways that you could tie into something that they're maybe passionate about and still direct them towards a better choice or a better option or a better way of thinking and show that you understand what's valuable to them and show them that there's a way that they could partake in certain things and still be, you know, become a better version of themselves. So I do think that there's probably an overlap if you get creative enough, if the relationship's important to you or you say, you know what, I have this 5% that are just kind of pain in the butt. I'm going to go focus on the 95% that are in alignment and they're the most ideal client because they are trying to become a better version of themselves. And I'm not going to invest my gifting resources towards the people that I'm going to basically cast my pearls before swine. Like, I'm not going to focus on those people and I'm going to focus on the ones that are ideal clients that I really want to work with, that are really going to appreciate what I'm bringing to the table. All right, thanks so much. Yeah, great question.

You want to do like a 30 to 60 second recap of the resource that you provided us so we know how to best use it.

Can I ask a quick question session?

Sure, Dominique, go ahead.

Just a quick question. I'm a little confused, John, because you're talking about not shopping with your eyes and recognizing what the person likes. So why wouldn't you give them something that's important to them regardless of whether or not it's something that you teach? Because if you're teaching somebody about health and wellness and then you send them because they have a sugar addiction, you send them a case of nerds and smarties that wouldn't be. That's not in alignment with being a functional medicine person. So the idea of like we've had chiropractors say, hey, we want to give out apple pies and I'm like, a bunch of white flour and sugar as your way of showing gratitude to somebody when you're teaching them not to inflame their body. Probably not a wise congruent thing to send out to your clients. Just basically look for something that's important to them, that's not on the sugar side or something that's going to hinder their health. Right. If your life's work and legacy is helping people become the best version, healthiest version of themselves and you're, you know, it'd be like somebody that's a distraction specialist sending out a bunch of technology or the person who's, you know, did the social dilemma, sending out iPads to everybody, probably not in alignment. So I do think it's possible to make the gift all about them, but also. And it's something that they would love and want, but also congruent with your core values as well. It's not one or the other, it's both and. Okay, thank you. Yeah.

All right, so yeah. Walk us through the resource real quick and then we'll let you get back to your day. Beautiful day in Austin, looks like.

Yeah, absolutely. So really, you know, if you have a marketing plan, a finance plan, a health plan, you should have a relationship plan. You should identify who you're sending things to or who's it most valuable to your practice or to your company or to your organization. And you should have a plan on how many times, how frequent, what the value those relationships are. That's really if you go download giftology system, it's just a fancy Excel spreadsheet that walks people through the blueprint of like, here's how to think about the who, here's how to think about how much, here's how to think about how frequent. And really, it's our 20 years of our playbook of saying here. If you, if relationships matter to you and you want to show up for them powerfully, then you need to lay out a proactive, not reactive, not transactional plan of how you're going to show up for for those relationships. And our entire recipe is in that download.

Thank you.