How to create a $200K recruitment side hustle (while fully employed)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Jeffrey Zabron. Jeff's story is pretty insane. He built his recruitment business while working a full-time SaaS sales job while also managing to hit President's Club. He hit $100K in his first year, $200K in his second year, $250K in his third year, and nearly $600K in his fourth year. In today's episode, Jeff is going to be breaking down his exact MPC strategy and and how he's used it to win countless clients. He's gonna be explaining the exact platforms he sees the most success, how to structure a really good MPC message. He's also going to be explaining his exact messaging follow-up process and why he wins most of his business at that stage. Jeff is also going to be explaining the one mindset shift that completely transformed his energy in sales. Finally, we're just gonna be speaking about Jeff's journey and how the hell he managed to run a business while working a full-time role. Guys, this is gonna be a great episode. We hope you enjoy it as much as Ben and I did. As usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine and let's get into it, shall we? Wait a second, guys, quick question for you. If you could land a new client on LinkedIn in the next couple weeks, how much would that be worth to you? 20, 30, maybe 40K? Well, we have a pretty crazy offer on right now. If you are a recruitment business owner, then we will work with you for free and write you 2 posts at absolutely no cost. And here's the cool part, other recruiters that have come through this free trial have managed to win new clients. They've racked up hundreds of thousands of impressions and started conversations with top-tier candidates. It's completely risk-free, so you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you're interested, the link's in the description below. If not, no worries. We hope you enjoy the podcast. See you later.

Jeff, thank you for joining us today, my friend. You literally told us off camera this is going to be your first podcast, so I am absolutely honored that you chose Top Billers Toolkit. How you doing, my friend?

Yeah, I'm doing great. How are you guys doing? Thanks for having me.

Yeah, really good, man. Really good. Really busy, just like crazy busy at the moment. You know what I'm hearing from recruiters as well a lot, because I'm getting on quite a lot of sales calls, and a lot of recruiters are just saying this is a good market right now, like they're super busy. So I feel like something's turning. I don't know what it is, but more people are just like in a good state, which is awesome. Sorry, completely random. Um, Jeff, let's start off with the first question, if you don't mind, my friend. Um, what's the number one tool in your toolkit whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Yeah, I love this question. I listen to your podcast all the time, so try to make it a little bit different. But I think that for me, the number one tool in my toolkit would be a sales skillset and a sales mindset. I think that when people think about recruiting, the obvious skillset would be to be a good recruiter, which is totally true. But I think that in recruiting, recruiting is sales, right? So to actually make money, to get clients, to find people, right? That's how you build a recruiting business, and those, you know, all require sales skills. So I would say—

I've— I know we had some questions later on around sales, but I feel like because that's your first one, Jeff, that I wasn't expecting, but I'll ask you another question around it now. But that's absolutely— so what, like, if there was some key things? Because, um, it definitely resonates that recruitment is very sales-led, and if you're a good salesperson, then I think you're going to be a more successful recruiter. Generally speaking, but what are the key principles? What are some really key things within that sales realm that you've learned that we can give to other recruiters, do you think?

Yeah, I think for me it was like, you know, really having and defining your skills, your sales skill set. So, you know, anything that you could do to make yourself better in sales. And, you know, I mentioned earlier about like how I think recruiting is sales, right? Like you reach out to people, at least in my opinion, almost in the same way that you would reach out to a candidate as a client, right? Like you're trying to get them to have an interest, like top of the funnel, in an opportunity. So when you're asking about like, you know, sales or sales skillset, I think really training yourself or, you know, using resources, books, podcasts, anything like that, or training classes to make sure that, you know, you can refine your skills as much as possible. And I think that comes down to like really two things in my opinion in recruiting. Number one is copywriting and how you write. Right? That's a lot of times in our day and age is like how you, you know, how you get those conversations started is through how you write and how you copyright. And number 2 is, you know, how you are on the phone, how you present yourself. Right? So I don't know if that one comes before the other. I would say like in a lot of, I think in this day and age, you know, maybe writing comes before, you know, your interpersonal skills or your phone skills or whatnot. But I think having, being able to, you know, make yourself as best as you can be in each of those scenarios, so on the phone or, you know, writing, are super important. And I think if you can combine both of them together and, you know, really hone both of those skill sets, you know, you can really be a phenomenal recruiter.

Love it. Absolutely love this. Um, Sam, were you going to say something? Because your mouth moves.

I was going to ask a question, but I don't want to go off course in case, uh, in case we're going down another rabbit hole. I was going to go straight into copywriting unless Ben, you had a—

No, I can ask a follow-up from that. Let's go. I, I— my brain's on copywriting as well because we haven't had very many recruiters that go down the copywriting writing route, which is interesting. Yeah, go ahead.

Sorry, Ben, you're passing over to me.

Okay, cool.

Now on that, on that copywriting piece, uh, Jeff, I think we already have a question lined up for that, but I'm just wondering how you learned copywriting.

Like, when, when was the first moment you were like, copywriting is important?

Because I think surprisingly, the amount of recruiters that use copywriting every single day in email messages but don't hone that skill is quite amazing. So I'm curious when you were like, oh shit, I need to get better at this and I'm gonna go do this to get better, if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense and that's a really good question. Um, so at least in recruiting for me, it was a lot of like guess and check, like does this work, right? Wasn't really necessarily working when I first started. I think it's like anything else, you try something, you know, if it works great, continue doing it. And if it doesn't, you know, change up what you're doing. And I think a lot of copywriting, um, is is that, is kind of seeing what works and what doesn't work. And I think like as a recruiter, right? Like you guys know this from, you know, LinkedIn and things like that. The better that your copywriting is or the better that you are as a writer, you know, really, I feel like attracts people to you, you know? 'Cause like here's an example I like to use and I'm sure you guys get emails all the time just like I do from, you know, people trying to pitch you things. Sometimes the copywriting is so bad that I don't even look at, you know, past like the subject line. Right? Or like, I don't even look past like the initial like subject line of a LinkedIn message. But sometimes the copywriting in the subject line or the first line is so good that it might even be automated, but like I will respond because there's a chance that it could be personalized, you know? So for me, it's like copywriting is so important for that top of funnel, just getting the conversation started, whether it's clients or recruiting. Because as much as people say that they want to cold call all day and, you know, that's great. If that works for you, that's phenomenal. But again, cold calls take a really like— again, everyone's different, but like cold calls can take just the same amount of time, if not more, right? Of like getting people on the phone and calling them and clients and all that. Where I see my, my most efficient, you know, practice or whatnot is in outreach through, through writing, whether it's, you know, LinkedIn or emails, cold emails.

I love that. So I have a feeling that some of the skills that you learn— well, I don't know, I feel I'm almost certain, Jeff, that some of the skills you learn in copywriting sales were in your sales job, your SaaS job. And I feel like we need to get into this because this is super fascinating, that you built a business while working a full-time job in SaaS software sales, and you made President's Club 2 years in a row whilst building a business on the side in recruitment. Um, and that's mad. Like, I thought when you first told me that, I was like, that's insane. Like, to be able to get to President's Club and perform at that level in software sales, which isn't easy. I know it's not easy. And but then to build a recruitment company on the side and hit some decent numbers as well is, is amazing. Um, why did you decide to do it in that order? Like, why didn't you just— I'm now, I'm kind of curious, why didn't you just stay in software sales? You made President's Club a couple times, you're obviously really good at it. What was that motivation to start building a business on the side?

Yeah, um, you know, just like personally, like, I'm very— I feel like I'm very entrepreneurial. Um, like, my dad has his own business, my grandpa has their own bit, has his— had his own business. So I, I I just feel like there was always something in me and I hear this a lot on your podcast as well as like you get that itch to want to do something on your own, like selling something for someone else, great experience. I learned so much, I wouldn't trade it for the world, but at the same time, like, man, I'm grinding and doing all these activities and all that for really to build someone else's business. And so in my head I'm like, man, what can I do to like build my own business? I don't really have any skills other than sales, I think at least. I'm like, I'm not very talented in anything else. I'm like, you know what, I could probably build a recruiting business. I started my career at a really large staffing agency, which is, it is recruiting. It's a little bit different, of course, temp staffing compared to permanent direct hire recruiting. But in my head I was always like, man, that is something I think I could do on my own. So yeah, I was in software sales. I was there for almost 8 years, pretty much hit President's Club every year. But you asked how to do both. I think the big thing, and I think this is recruiting in general, but for sure in sales, it's just like efficiency is so important. And I think being able to find practices or ways to make yourself more efficient without taking shortcuts is probably the most important, one of the most important things skill sets that you can have in recruiting. Like figuring out ways to do things in maybe like 2 to 4 hours that usually would take someone 6 to 8 hours is so important. But there's a fine line with that because you don't wanna do things in 2 to 4 hours that is all automated where people can't, where people don't feel your authenticity, right? So for me, that was kind of the struggle at first is like, figuring out how to automate things, but also wanting to make my copywriting look like it and act like it actually is coming from myself, right? Like I'm actually doing the research. So efficiency was just really big for me. And I figured out in my software sales job how to be efficient where I can get things done relatively efficiently and still work on my recruiting business after hours and on the weekends and take client calls after hours or recruiting calls on the weekends. So I think like when anyone else starts a business, you work your day job and then, you know, on the after hours you try to build your business or whatnot. And, you know, eventually I was just like, man, my recruiting business is kind of taking off and started making more money in my recruiting business. And I was like, you know, I don't know if I need to do the software sales anymore, but it was definitely— I still feel like it was a leap of faith at the time. I was definitely nervous about it, but, you know, great decision. You know, I'm very happy that I did it at the time that I did it. So.

Awesome.

Were you working like every hour God sent, uh, Jeff? I'm just curious, like, because as a business owner, this business consumes all my life, like, it's insane. And so I'm just, I'm just like, how the hell did Jeff build a business and have a full-time job? Were you just working like every hour? I'm just, I'm curious how you manage your time.

Kind of, but like not really. Like, I honestly started during COVID um, so everyone was at home, so that was kind of, you know, I was bored. Um, yeah, I like to like work out, play basketball. Like I like to be very active and a lot of those things I couldn't really do. So I was like, what can I do to like take up my time? And I was like, I've always wanted to build a business. So I started just kind of reaching out to people like, hey, like, and I'm sure you guys remember this, like after COVID, the market was just crazy. Everyone was hiring, right? They couldn't find enough people. And I'm like, if there's ever a time to do this, you know, this would be the time. And then I just started doing research on like what the hot markets were. So I started just reaching out to people and you know, using my sales skill set that I used in software sales. And I was like, hey, could you use some help here? Like, you know, I could have a candidate. Here's a candidate, or I could help you find people. So yeah, I wouldn't say that I was like working like crazy. Like, I definitely don't work like 12-hour days or, you know, whatever, 10-hour days. Like, I'm very efficient. A lot of days I'll start at like 8:30 and I'll end at like 3:00, you know.

And wow, amazing.

I definitely don't, you know, I'm not crazy about that. Being said, like, I will take calls on weekends if I need to, or like 6, 7:30 if someone needs to jump on a call or whatnot.

So, and that— is that a normal working day for you, Jeff? Like 8 till 3 at the moment?

Yeah, I'd say so.

Yeah, that's pretty good.

Wow.

And just for the audience, just to kind of put that into perspective, um, I'm just going to quickly tell them the numbers that you share with me, Jeff, if that's okay. Yeah. 2021, whilst you're working full-time, $100K. Year 2, 2022, $200K. Second year, that's still in your job, so that's pretty mad.

Yeah.

Um, year 3, $250,000 first year on your own, and then year 4, 2025, $539K.

Um, yeah, I just looked at my— I had 2 invoices out to try to hit $600K but didn't get it.

But, um, still, man, that's epic. Really great numbers.

And yeah, yeah, and it was, it was funny because like I figured when I quit my job, or, you know, I, I was at $200K, I was like, man, first year I could, you know, if I could do this kind of like part-time, I could double it, you know, I could do $400K. And I actually didn't end up doing that. And it was like, at the end of the year, I was like, I was kind of distraught by it. I was like, man, only $50K more. And I'm doing this like my, you know, full time. Like I was really kind of upset by it. And, you know, that was kind of like a hurdle I had to get over. And then, you know, I was like, man, this year I'm going to double, you know, I'm definitely going to do it. I had it on my desk, you know, I'm like, looked at it every day. I'm like, I'm going to do $500K. I know that's what I'm going to do.

That's interesting. So what, What was the biggest needle mover from $250K to $500K? 'Cause that's, you're right, you did literally, you doubled that in one year, which is insane actually. That's pretty insane growth. What were the most important things that you did that got you to $500K plus, do you think?

Yeah, I think it's two things, and this might be oversimplifying it, but honestly, the longer that you stay, that I've noticed at least, the longer that you stay in your niche and the longer that you are the guy to go to for, you know, anything in regards to your niche. So like if someone has a job that they need filled and they come to you, or if someone is looking for a job, they come to you. It has just got— I hate to say this, but it's gotten easier as the years go on. So I think that first like 2 to 3 years, you know, are kind of tough because you're still trying to make a name for yourself. You know, people don't really know you or, you know, you've never talked to this person before. But, you know, now if a client comes to me like, hey, I need a project manager, like in my head I have like 10, 15 project managers, right, that I know that I could reach out to. So when I talked about efficiency earlier, it's really figuring out like how to be efficient and really being able to do things in like, you know, 5 hours and compared to 10 hours a day. And that comes, I think, largely in, in, within being in a niche and really knowing your niche really well, which I know I hear a lot of your guests in your podcast say all the time.

So, um, Interesting. So do you think that the biggest needle mover for the fourth year was just momentum build from the network at that point? Do you think, Jeff, was it like, oh, now I've got more clients, more candidates, now it's just about more volume? Or like, is that— am I accurate there, or am I missing something?

I would say that's not— that's definitely like one of them. I would say that. So momentum, like you were saying, is probably, you know, one of the aspects of it. Another aspect of it is I really, you know, this past year I really upped my sales, you know, like outreach. So, you know, before I was, you know, I was working with a lot of the same clients. I thought that I could just be like, oh, I could just work with these clients. And I was doing some, you know, new business outreach. But the past year or so, like, I really amped it up. And, you know, that was, you know, I like branded my LinkedIn, you know, I did all the things that like, because when I worked in my software sales job, I didn't have it on my LinkedIn because I didn't want my company knowing that I was doing both at the time, you know? So that first year I really had to like make a name for myself. And, you know, I was, Ben, we talked, it's like, I don't post on LinkedIn. I know that's a big marketing tool for a lot of people. And that's something that, that's a lever that I want to pull like eventually. And I want to, I want to be able to do that because I think it's a great marketing tool. But I think that, you know, upping my sales outreach and like, you know, my, my really kind of just my, my activity was huge. Because the year before that I really, I had like 5, 6, 7, like good clients that would give me repetitive, you know, new good business, but going out there and forming these new relationships and, you know, reaching out to people and using like the sales skills, you know, that I've, I've learned for so many years has really helped me this past year. And, you know, this year I think as well. So awesome.

Sorry, Sam, just one more question because I feel like it's so relevant. And so more outreach is fascinating for me because it's very kind of— it's a simple kind of tangible thing that other people can take away from this. So what was, what was the difference between the outreach? Maybe not exactly down to the number, but like roughly were you doing like 2 outreaches a day and then the following year to get to 500 you did 10? Like what was the difference between outreach in terms of like volume or hours or some sort of metric?

Yeah, um, I would say like my goal was in my head, and I didn't always hit this, but was like 10 new business, you know, activities every single day.

Cool, interesting.

That was like, you know, 50 a week. It was either like reaching out to people on LinkedIn through emails and, you know, just my— everybody has a different process, right? So like my process might not work for everyone and someone else's process might not work for me. That's what I love about recruiting. I think it's very much an art. Like everybody could do things differently and have different outcomes. Like there could be a million-dollar biller that only cold calls, right? And that's great. But for me, I feel like it's much more about, you know, cold outreach, through emails and LinkedIn. So yeah, for me it was just like finding people within my niche that are hiring, hiring managers, owner, business owner, right? Anything within my ICP, my ideal prospect, and reaching out to them and just like letting them know. And it's one thing about finding those people, but it's another thing about bringing those people value where they'll potentially, if they don't wanna work with you today, like, if they do, great, but if they don't, maybe they want to work with you a year from now or 2 years from now, right? So that's why that the niche is also so important.

Amazing.

Interesting.

I'm, I'm curious, Jeff, if someone said to you right now, hey Jeff, go start another business, you've already chosen your niche, what method would you use to win clients? What, what if someone said you have to choose one and do that straight away? Where, where's your brain gravitating towards?

You're talking about like one, like outreach source or like—

Yeah, if there was one method that you had to use to grow a business from scratch, what would it be?

Yeah, it's a great question. So I would say, man, it's obviously between email and LinkedIn for me, but I would say there's— I would say probably email just because, you know, not everybody's on LinkedIn. And I think like when you get— my end goal is always to kind of bring it back to email. So like if I reach out to someone on LinkedIn and we have a good conversation, I'm like, hey, can I shoot— You know, can I shoot you over an email or like, you know, do you think it makes sense for a phone call? Um, really to get out of LinkedIn because it's just, you know, million messages. It's tough to kind of, you know, um, sort through, but I would say probably to your question is email, you know, really, I think cold email in sales is like, if not the best skill set, it's one of the best skill sets to have. It's just, it's so important to be able to, to write well and to articulate. Um, and you know, be sufficient, right? Like, I guess efficient, not, not having like a 700-word email, but being able to say what you want to say in like 300 words or less, you know?

Yeah, that's really helpful, dude. And so you would choose email and talk me through, because if someone just said, hey Jeff, here's a, here's an email domain and a laptop, how would you go about then winning business? Like, do you go to candidates first? You go straight to clients? Can you talk me through your process of what you would do like right now to win a new client?

Yeah.

Well, so right now in my business, if I wanted to like find— are you talking about like finding a new client in my business right now? Or like if I were to start a new one?

If you were to start a new one, like just because I'm sure now you've got a network, you've got referrals, like it's just a different game now, isn't it? I'm thinking like brand new, what would you do?

Yeah, yeah. No, it's a really good question. And I think what I would do is I would probably find a really good candidate, right? Like I know people talk about NPC approach all the time. I have two different approaches when it comes to sales, right? And if I were to start a new business right now, obviously your focus would be trying to find clients, right? That's who pays you. That's who you work with. You know, that's at the end of the day, that's how you grow your business. So I think I would— I have a two-pronged approach in my sales technique, and this is kind of how I would do it if I were to start a new business. I would take, you know, an NPC, right? So I would say find the most placeable candidate and really take that person and market them to my niche, right? So let's say if I was doing like manufacturing in Chicago, which I know nothing about, but if I did, I would find, you know, a really high, like a long-tenured candidate that's open to new opportunities in whatever way, you know, that is LinkedIn, email calls, whatever it is, find that person and then, you know, market them to the manufacturing industry in Chicago. And again, find your ideal client or candidate or ideal client profile, you know, on LinkedIn, find their contact info, email them, cold email them, LinkedIn message them, really just try to put a name, you know, like a name to a face or whatnot. So they know you're legitimate, right, in your LinkedIn profile. And then, you know, come up with some type of copy and cold email to get them to ideally respond to you. So I would say I would definitely use cold email and then that in the NPC approach. And then, you know, the second approach that I have is more like, It's more like finding job openings, right? Like people posting them and then pitching candidates. So I think there's two ways you can find an NPC and market them essentially their skillset. Like, hey, don't know if you have a need right now, but I have a candidate that I'm working with. Thought he might be a good fit. You know, think there'd be any interest in taking a look at him. Like, not sure if you have any, but think there'd be any interest taking a look at him. Or the other approach is, hey, saw your post looking for, you know, a manufacturing project manager in Chicago. You know, I'm working with this candidate, 10 years of experience, here's a skill set, think they're being like, not sure if you're still looking, but think they're gonna be interested in taking a look at this candidate. So that's kind of the two-pronged approach I take. One of them is an NPC and the other one's more like a general, like, marketing. They might not have a need, but they might in like 6 months from now.

Nice, man.

Love it. Um, and what would you say is more successful for you? Is it the job ad route or is it the normal kind of NPC route where you're just kind of being broader?

Yeah, I— so the NPC route where I'm marketing a candidate that, you know, they have that I know that they have a job opening for, I have a much higher response rate.

Yeah.

Where it's like there's a job posting, right? Because like that, that means they have a need for sure, right? Like essentially they have a need for sure, whether it's filled or not. Yeah, they had a need. So my response rate is much higher. And I was telling you, Ben, I think so my response rate, my first email is about 7%. My second email is a little over 7%, like 7 or 8%. So my response rate is pretty good on those, I think, relative to like maybe most cold emails. And when I'm marketing a candidate that there isn't necessarily a job posting for, just like a, you know, this skill set might align with your company or what you do, it's a little bit lower. It's more like 5 to 6%. But in both scenarios, it's not like every single email back response is like, hey, we want to talk to this guy. A lot of times it's like, hey, thanks for the email. You know, we filled this role, or we don't use recruiters, or we're not using recruiters right now, but we'll keep you in mind. Or like, you know, sometimes like, let's reach back out in 6 months, right? So it's definitely not all like, let's get on a call and talk about this candidate. But regardless, if you're in a niche, that's something that you wanna know, right? So like, that is a good person to just make contact with 'cause now they know you. Now the next time you reach out, you're like, hey, I saw you post another job for a project manager. We talked 6 months ago, it wasn't a good time. Do you think, do you think now would be a good time to talk about this candidate? So, you know, we were talking about niches earlier and starting a business. Like, it's just the long game and delayed gratification in recruiting that I found is just so important.

Really interesting. I'd love to just go into— because when we spoke as well, uh, Jeff, you said that I was quite surprised by the volume of emails that you sent. It was— you said you sent 300 cold emails last year. Um, and correct if I'm wrong, that you got a big chunk of business from those 300 emails. And I was quite surprised because over the year that's not a lot at all. Like, some recruiters send that in a day. I mean, that's excessive, don't get me wrong, but like, or in a week at least, you know, or maybe even a month. But they'll send way more in the whole year. So what are you doing differently, and why are you only sending 300? How are you making it work with 300 is probably a better question.

Yeah. Um, so here's the thing. I think when I got into recruiting, I saw a bunch of YouTube videos, right? I was like doing research and everybody kind of like researches before they start a business. And on YouTube I saw people that are like, send out 10,000 cold emails a month. And in my head I'm like, man, how could anybody do that? Like how could anyone receive an email from those 10,000 and be like, I'm gonna respond to this, right? So like, I was like, I gotta figure out a better way to do this. That is kind of when I was like, I need to figure out my approach and how I'm going to do this. And, you know, a lot of like my sales thinking is like, you know, zig when other people zag, right? Like everybody's using AI, everybody's using Clay. You know, I'm sure you guys get all these automated emails just like I do. And I ignore, you know, if it's not custom to me, I will respond to every customized email that I get. If I know that someone is reaching out to me and it's like personal, I will reach out. I will respond. But if it's an AI email or if I know it's like clay or spam or whatever, like I'll never respond. I always delete them. So my 300 cold emails like this past year were all super personalized and that, I think that's why my response rate was so high. So it's like, would you rather send out 10,000 cold emails a year and get a 0.5 response rate? Or would you rather send out 300, your name's behind it, your brand, your company, where the client knows you're legitimate, right? And it's a legitimate email because you read maybe their job description or their company and what they do and you personalize your email or your outreach to what they do. Like, you know, show me you know me. I've heard that phrase before. I really like it. Like, show me you know who I am. Show me you know what I do. And that response rate is just so much higher. So yeah, I think, you know, knowing your niche has a lot to do with that, right? Like you can speak their language if you know their niche. I'm in construction, like I can talk about project types and different types of construction where I think if a generalist probably reached out with 300 emails, probably wouldn't be able to speak that language. So I think that's a big part of it. But yeah, I would say that is super important, like what is in the message, right? And how you deliver it. And so to that point, like how you deliver your message and what you're asking for or what you're reaching out about is so important. You know, I'm sure you get these emails too. It's like, hey, you know, I'm gonna sell you this software. Is tomorrow at 3:00 PM a good time to talk? And it's like, no, it's not a good time to talk. It's like, you didn't bring me any value about talking to you at 3:00 PM. Like, what are we gonna talk about? I don't need your soft, I don't need your ATS, you know? So like, no, it's not a good time to talk at 3:00 PM. But if someone came up to me and they're like, and I'm just using this as an example, you know, I don't, but if I'm a software person selling like an ATS, like, you know, some people are having this issue. I don't know if you're having this issue, but, you know, do you think it would make sense to talk about this issue? And like putting the ball in my court, right? So lead by asking, asking if it's a good fit and if they think it's worth their time instead of assuming, right? Because like when you assume, you would never go up to someone and see someone on the street and be like, hey, can we talk tomorrow at 3 PM about this issue that I'm having? It's like, no, I don't need to do that with you. Like, that's not important to me, you know? But it's like, Hey, do you think this would be worth talking about tomorrow at 3 PM? Right? And they're like, yeah, maybe it would be. Right? So like really kind of, and it's not about what you ask about, how you ask it.

I just want to give the listeners context. So you got, you sent 300 emails and you got, you're getting a 15 to 20% response rate, which is pretty insane. So you're getting between, out of those 300, if my math is correct, about 45 to 60 responses, which is pretty insane. That's like, that's a really good ratio. If you think about it, like that many responses. I know not all of them are going to be like, yes, let's work together, but still, like, that is 45 people that have come back that you can start a conversation with. Yeah, you know, warm and nurture. Um, I'd love to, um, get into like the email structure or just as much information as we can. You've already kind of given some insight, Jeff. Um, yeah, share what you feel comfortable sharing, but yeah, I kind of want to be a fly on the wall. I'm like, I want to look at your campaign behind the scenes.

What is Jeff typing?

What is he saying?

How is he getting responses? What are the core things that are allowing this to work, do you think?

For sure. So I have a couple, like, I'm happy to share as much as, you know, you guys want to hear about it. And I think that, you know, what it comes down to at the end of the day is just being authentic, right? Like really understanding what, you know, what you're reaching out about, right? So first, I would say some like little things that I do that might be a little bit different from what other people do is, My headlines are always lowercase. Might not seem like a big deal, but works for me all the time. I never type in uppercase letters. I never use capital letters. I'm sorry. And I do this for a couple of reasons. Number one, no AI machine or bot is going to use lowercase letters, right? So they know that it's coming from me if I use lowercase letters. I will say in the past, like 3 or 4 years I've been doing this, I don't have the numbers on like my response rate. But this is the candidates. I do use like proper punctuation to clients because I just think it's more professional. But to candidate, for candidate outreach, always lowercase. I had one time in the past 3 or 4 years where I had someone respond to me and say I was unprofessional for not using capital letters. And I thought it was kind of funny. But I would say my, even to clients, my headline, my subject is always lowercase, right? Because they get so many emails and it's always either one or two words. Right? It's always something like, saw your post or PM or, you know, whatever it is, it's something related to my copy, right? In the email.

PM standing for project manager.

Project manager, right? Yeah. Or like, you know, like if it's like a restaurant project, like Chicago restaurant project, right? Like something that they know in the subject line that I read, right? That I read maybe their job description or something that applies to them, right? Because then they're going to open it, right? Because if you send in all caps, like a very proper punctuation with a semicolon, to, you know, a prospect, they're going to think it's just an automated email, right? Because 90% chance these days that it is, right? So something that I have a lot of success with, you know, other people might think it's crazy or might not like it, but I see a lot of success with that.

Awesome. And then what's the body look like, Jeff? Again, you have to give us word for word, but like, what are you just saying? Hey, I've got this candidate. I think we had an example of one yesterday from a top biller. It was super similar. It was like, hey, I've got this candidate or the sales director, here are the 3 things. And then he said like 3 biggest things, um, the 3 tangible things that were selling that candidate. And then it was like, are you interested in meeting him?

Are you interested?

It was super simple. Yeah, like any more complicated, or if they're similar to that, or—

yeah, no, that's solid. Um, so yeah, I, I was talking earlier, like I try to keep everything I write under like 300 characters. I just find that's like a sweet spot. If you go anything more than 300 characters, like You're, in my opinion, like if someone's reading it on their phone, they're not going to scroll and like read it. So, um, I try to keep everything 300 characters. I space out all of my lines, right? Like paragraphs. I never have more than like one sentence in every paragraph, which I think is just like for reading is just like very quick. Um, but in terms of like the copy that I actually use for my outreach for potential clients, it's always something along the lines of like, hey, saw your post looking for this skillset, let's say a project manager's like, hey, saw your post looking for a project manager. Like, not sure if you're still looking, but working with a candidate who has this skillset. And then, you know, briefly talk about his skillset at a very high level. Sometimes they even mention the company that he's at or she's at. And like, not sure if you're still looking, but if you are, think there'd be any interest in taking a look, question mark, right? And then they get back to you and be like, no thanks, we already found someone or, you know, we're not looking anymore. Or they get back to like, we would love to see this person, you know, let's jump on a call. A lot of times, honestly, a lot of times people will just pick up the phone and call me and be like, hey, you sent me this email about this candidate, like, let's talk about them. So like, I don't even have to cold call someone, you know?

So, and how are you selecting? Because this is really interesting. Again, we asked this yesterday, so it just came to my head. Jeff, how are you selecting? Let's maybe, let's go with project managers because you mentioned a few times. What's the difference between a good project manager to MPC and like an average project manager to MPC? How are you selecting the project manager and how do you know he's going to be or she's going to be good, do you think?

Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think that's kind of tough. I think that's about knowing your niche, right? So like knowing what clients want, right? So that, you know, I work in construction, so I guess I can really kind of relate it back to, you know, engineering and construction is like people, excuse me, want candidates that are tenured, right? That have been in the role for a while, that have done, you know, projects that are similar to the ones that they work on either in scope or, you know, dollar amount. Maybe have like a good reference or two that they've connected you with that they can speak for them. So I think really kind of evaluating like what clients want and knowing what clients want is super important. And again, that all comes with experience. If you're just starting in recruiting, like you're never, you're really not gonna know what clients want until you talk to clients, right? So you have to be willing to like put yourself out there and it's much, much easier said than done, but you really kind of have to like be willing to put yourself out there and like be curious. Like you didn't mention the fact like, Hey, I did this a lot when I first started recruiting. Like, hey, I really haven't been doing this for that long. Like, what does a good project manager look like to you? Like, you know, what kind of project manager do you typically hire? And like, they love when people are curious because those are questions that people don't really ask them, right? Like, they usually just send them a resume and be like, when's a good time to talk about this candidate? It's like, never. Like, he's not a good candidate. I don't want to talk to you about him, right? Like, I'm not going to talk to you. And then you lose credibility. So, you know, having those conversations, just like asking, like acknowledging the fact that you might not be, you know, the most experienced person or necessarily know what a good project manager would look like. And not all the time, but a lot of times clients, you know, love telling you what their perfect candidate looks like. Awesome.

Interesting. What the guest we had yesterday said, that only 20% of all his MPC campaigns get responses where the client says, hey, would love to have a chat about this candidate. But majority of them are like, hey, this is a good candidate, don't need this candidate, but I need someone like this. I'm curious, what's your main response? Because that's how it opens the door for most conversations. It's not that candidate, it's actually someone else. I'm just curious if you experience the same thing.

Totally. Yeah, I was actually going to mention that a lot of times it's a conversation starter. So it's like, hey, you reach out to us about this candidate, you know, we're not looking for a project manager, but we need, you know, a superintendent, or we need an estimator. Or we need an engineer, right? Like we need a civil engineer, not a mechanical engineer. Can you help us with that? So maybe they see your email, they look at your LinkedIn, they go to your website like, oh, this guy's legit. He works in our niche. He lives in Chicago. We work in Chicago. This is a good guy to talk to about another opportunity we have. So for sure that happened. I don't have the numbers in terms of like what the percentage is of those types of conversations, but it definitely happens all the time. And it's great. And the other thing I'll say about that is like, and I know people do this, but I never reach out to people with NPCs that I don't actually like have or talk to. Like I just could never reach out to someone with a candidate that I'm, you know, that I'm like making up, I guess, because if they ask to see the resume or they ask like talk about 'em, like what are you gonna do? You know, like you lose all credibility. So I would say like really finding someone legitimately and not like just, you know, faking it, um, from— in my opinion, is super important because like you want to have a sword to fall on if you actually have to present that candidate, you know?

Yeah, so funny. We've had quite a few billers on the, uh, pod, Jeff, and there's definitely a category of recruiters that are okay making up the candidate.

Yeah.

And then there's a category that are like very stern, like, no, don't do it. So it's just fascinating.

Totally.

Um, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

In my opinion, like, I, I definitely think that there are people that probably get away with that and can do that, but Honestly, and this is funny, I didn't mean to say it, but I think honesty is just such a big part of recruiting. You want to be honest and transparent and it separates you from 95% of people in the recruiting industry. And I'm generalizing, but I just feel like so many people are like, you know, will maybe tell a white lie to get in front of a client or even a candidate, like talk about a client that they're working with that isn't necessarily correct or truthful 100%. And you lose credibility, right? Because like that client's never going to want to work with you again. That candidate's never going to want to work with you again. And it might not be a good fit right now, but 6 months from now, that client will be like, oh, he was honest. You know, like he didn't, he didn't lie about the candidate he was working with. I've had a million recruiters reach out about candidates they're working with just to get a conversation started. So it's my opinion, right? Other people could do things the other way and it could work for them. So I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer, but I feel most comfortable presenting, you know, legitimate candidates.

Yeah, and I completely get that, man, and I understand the, the thought process behind that. Um, Ben, is there any more questions you have on MPC? I had kind of a different question.

Is it still BD focused?

Uh, kind— not really, no.

Okay, cool. I've got a BD-focused question, Jeff, because, um, correct if I'm wrong, you've got a follow-up process and you also use LinkedIn as well in combination with email, which I find interesting. Can we talk a little bit about that? What are you doing like with follow-ups and/or LinkedIn? Like, how are you 'Cause I've got here, and forgive me, your follow-up emails outperform your first emails. Am I right in saying you get more responses from your follow-ups than you do from your initial emails? Is that correct?

Yeah, for sure.

Interesting.

Yeah, my follow-up emails are like really simple, honestly. It's always like coming from a place of curiosity. It's always something like, you know, it's the start of the new year, right? So like a lot of my clients are really busy. So like my follow-up email right now is like, Hey, I know it's the start of the year and you're probably super busy. I hate to even ask this question. Would you have any interest in taking a look at this candidate if you're looking? Right? And then they're like—

Pretty disarming.

Yeah, exactly.

It's quite disarming the way you said that. It's like, oh, interesting.

Exactly. And they're like, oh, like, so sorry I didn't respond to your first email. Like, I am super busy. Like, you nailed it. And now is not a good time, but like, reach back on in 6 months, you know, something like that. Or like, We're not looking right now, but we might be soon. So like, let's stay in touch. Or sometimes they don't respond and that's totally fair too. But really kind of coming at it from like a place of curiosity instead of a place of assuming like I deserve to talk to you is just so important. I always try to think about like, how would you want to be reached out to? I really don't like when people, number one, cold call me and I'm busy doing something. Again, this is a hot take. It's just not my thing.

I agree, man.

Yeah. I would rather get like a LinkedIn message or an email and like decide whether I want to meet with that person. Um, so it's really, again, it's like about how you, how you say it and not what you say, you know.

I'm still amazed that, um, because I mean cold calling still works, but I still hate receiving cold calls. And yeah, there's definitely a portion of the market that like, that still like receiving cold calls, obviously, because it still works, I think. And, uh, yeah, but, um, yeah, it just brings me back to today. I had like 5 people try and call me. I was getting so annoyed. I was like, I'm not picking up the phone. You need to email me or me.

Totally. Yeah, exactly. And then if you can like read about it, right, you're like, hey, like this might be of interest to me, like I, I could take the call, right? But if someone calls you and like you feel like they're trying to pressure you into selling you something, and again, this is all my opinion, like people could disagree with this, but I'm like, it pushes me further away from wanting to meet with them, you know? They're like, hey, they pitch, they do their pitch on the phone and I listen to it and I'm always like, hey, I appreciate— like whenever I get them, like, hey, I appreciate the hustle, like, you know, it's probably not. And then they come back with like a you know, like a response, like to try to trick me into meeting with them. And then I'm like, all right, now I'm like pushing away a little bit, you know? So.

Yeah, it's funny.

Yeah. It's an art, you know?

I'm sorry, just to clarify on the follow-up, Jeff, how many follow-ups are you sending? So it sounds like they're fairly simple. It's more about timing. How many are you sending and at what points in the sequence?

I usually just send one, to be honest with you.

Oh really? Okay, interesting.

Two, I send one email, my initial email about the NPC. I've experimented with sending 3. The 3rd one, like, does really poorly. The 2nd one has been, you know, usually the best performer.

Yeah, interesting.

I had that when I was doing heavy email as well. I used to send a Loom video and then the 2nd video, the 2nd email was always really good and then diminishing returns from 3rd onwards for some reason.

Totally, yeah.

So Yeah, that's interesting.

And I think that, I think that for me, at least, like, again, I'm all speaking from my experience. Like, I think that for me, I sent 2 emails, you know, if they respond, great. If they don't respond, then I also have the ability to reach back out to them in 6 months or 7 months or 8 months. Right. But if you send 5 emails to someone in a 3-month span, and then, you know, 4 months later you send another 5, you're emailing that person or reaching out to that person 15 times in 1 year. It's like. That's kind of crazy to me, right? But like, if you send 2 and they, they're like, oh, I've seen this guy's emails before. Like, I know he's legit. I know he works in my niche. And, you know, I know he's a recruiter. Like they've seen me, like they can put a name to a face, right? Like they know who I am. So that when I reach out again, whether it's 6 months, a year, 2 years from now, whatever it is, like they know who I am. So that's, that's what works for me. I think that like overwhelming someone to the point where like they see your email and they shrug and they're like, oh, this guy again. Like, I don't want to be that guy. That guy, you know.

Yeah, yeah, interesting. Um, and sorry, just one more question around the B2B, Sam.

Sorry, that's okay.

Um, the craft— I might be thinking someone else, Jeff, so forgive me if I'm getting this wrong, but do you get a lot of your responses via LinkedIn from this process, or is it mainly via email? Like, what— where do you get the highest response rate, do you think? Is it directly via email, or is it via LinkedIn after you followed up on LinkedIn, or was it a mixture of both?

Probably a mixture of both. I don't know like the exact metrics for LinkedIn because it's kind of hard to track. I don't use any like LinkedIn automation. I know a lot of people do that. I'm just like too nervous about them like banning my account.

That's not a good idea.

Yeah, I don't use any of the automation tools, but I get a ton of my LinkedIn messages. I get tons of responses, tons. And, you know, I don't know what the response rate is, but I would say it's probably similar, if not a little bit better, to my emails. Just because it's easier for people to respond on LinkedIn, right? Like they accept. And the other thing that I do, um, that I think is really helpful is like I use LinkedIn Sales Navigator. I don't use LinkedIn Recruiter. Um, so I use Sales Navigator, and in Sales Navigator you can send a note. Um, I don't know if you guys have used this at all, or used a note. No.

Is it similar to it? It's not the same principle as an InMail? Is it different?

So yeah, this is, this is awesome.

I don't know if, uh, We use Sales Navigator a lot, but we've never heard of the note thing. We don't really send messages on, um, Sales Navigator just because notoriously in-mails have always had such a horrible response rate, Jeff. But you obviously know something we haven't heard of before.

What's this note thing?

Yeah, this is awesome. So if you go to LinkedIn and you go to connect, and you— if you have Sales Navigator, you could send a note and you can put 300 characters in a note. So every single one of my LinkedIn connection requests to the candidates and clients have a note. And it's the same exact thing that we've been talking about. It's like my messages in my emails are almost exactly the same. It's a little bit different because I don't want them to think I'm just like copy and pasting it from email to LinkedIn. But all of my LinkedIn messages are like to a candidate, for example, it's like, hey, you know, first name, great to connect. You know, working on a PM role that might be a good fit with your experience here. Like, here's your experience. You know, not sure if you're looking, but any interest in a combo about it? Really good, really good response rate. Interesting. Same thing with clients. I read you doing this.

Sorry, Jeff, just to clarify, because my brain's getting— are you doing this via Sales Navigator, this note, this note function?

Uh, yeah, but if you have Sales Navigator, you can just send a note in your connection request.

Sorry, I'm being slow here. So what you mean is you're sending, you're sending a connection request, but yeah, you're sending a written connection request instead of just a random connection request with Correct. Random. But yeah, cool. I'm with you now. Got it.

Yeah. Because then the message, the message goes to their, their messages, right?

So yeah, of course. That's a really good point actually. So as long as you can make it— is it below 300 characters or below 300 characters? Yeah. Interesting.

So that's why copywriting is so important. You have to be able to like explain what you're reaching out to about in 300 characters.

That's a really good point. If you can keep it below 300, it's guaranteed to get in front of their face. Like they're, they're guaranteed to read it if you can get that message below 300 characters. So sorry, what, what are you saying in that 300? Um, roughly speaking, what are you saying in that 300? Connection message?

Pretty much the same thing I'm sending in my emails, like, hey, you know, and I, again, I use all lowercase, like when I send these, these connection notes to people, and I send them myself, like I don't automate them, right? Like, I'm like, hey, saw your experience at, you know, this company, you know, not sure if you're looking or in the market, but I have a project manager, like a PM opportunity. You know, here's a little bit more about the job, like any interest in taking a look at it, or think it's worth a conversation about. And you know, the, the response rate's really high and I do the same thing on the client side every time. I actually reach out on LinkedIn with a note to a potential client before I send them a cold email.

Interesting.

So, so LinkedIn is your first—

sorry, go ahead, Tom.

Sorry, LinkedIn is your first port of call to send that NPC pitch and it will be through a connection message? Correct.

Yeah, cuz then they see— so like I'll do it like one day I'll just like go on LinkedIn, I'll find like all my, you know, ICPs, I'll send them all link, whatever note I'm sending out to them, whether it's like an NPC or like, you know, candidate that I'm working with that I thought might be a good fit. I'll message them, I'll send them a connection request and a note on LinkedIn. And, you know, ideally they see it, they accept it, you know, sometimes they'll respond to it. But that email that I send to them, usually like the next day, sometimes I do it the same day. You know, it's like a warm email, right? Cause they've seen my LinkedIn. They're like, oh, this guy's a recruiter. He's in Chicago. He works in construction engineering. Like he's legit and maybe they saw your LinkedIn request, but like, you know, people don't use LinkedIn as much as maybe we do, but they're always in their email, right? So like it gives myself a little bit more credibility than to respond back to me.

Mm. Yeah. Really interesting, man. Really interesting.

So simple, but it's not— it's not something that we've heard of much, like used in that order, which is interesting.

Yeah.

And pitching the NPC in the connection message is where I'm going to experiment with that.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, isn't it?

Yeah, it does make a lot of sense, especially if the message is good, Jeff, and you put the emphasis on like a good piece of copy. It and you've got the, you know, a good candidate to the right client, that it makes perfect sense that it would at least say accept and be semi-interested, correct?

Yeah, because you're doing the same thing when you connect with them, aren't you? Pretty much. If you've got an NPC, the first message is going to be an NPC, so you might as well get— do it in the, in the connection.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And the other thing about that too is like, you know, they could accept your— this happens all the time— they can accept your LinkedIn connection requests, not respond to the message that you sent them, right? Like, that happens all the time. But now you have this person in your network, right? And now they're seeing everything that you're posting or commenting on LinkedIn. They're seeing the people that you're connected with on LinkedIn. So they know that you have a vast network of people in their niche, right? So, you know, it's again, if it's not for right now, maybe you're not going to work with them, but it could be 6 months, a year from now. You know, I've had people reach out to me a year later being like, hey, I know I didn't respond to this message, but like, you know, we're now looking for a project manager and we thought you'd be a good fit to help us. Sell.

Love it. Awesome. Um, oh, Ben, no, you go ahead, Sam.

No, I'm just going to say that I've, uh, I've actually got a client call in about 10 minutes, so I don't know what other— I've got one question in my head. Ben, did you have a—

No, I, I was going to ask the same question as I always do, but I'll, I'll save that for the very, very end, Sam. So you ask your question.

Yeah, I'm just curious, um, if you were to go back, Jeff, to those first couple of days, you know, Jeff, who just started his business and knowing everything you do now and you were to have a conversation with yourself, is there anything you would say to new Jeff who just started his business to make sure he would get to his goals faster?

Yeah. Yeah, I like that question. I mean, Ben and I talked about this like a week or two ago that I think is super helpful in terms of like sales methodologies, right? Like there's a guy that I follow, his name is Josh Braun. I don't know if You know, Sam, you're familiar with him, but he's—

I haven't heard of him, no.

You know, he's a LinkedIn influencer and he's got like a really good sales strategy and a really good sales technique. And I discovered him, you know, maybe like 5, 6 years ago. So I was just leaving my software sales job, just getting into recruiting. And I think his tactics and the way that he goes about like something he says a lot is like detaching from the outcome. So it's really like, you know, detaching whether that someone wants to talk to you or not, like don't take it personally. Right. And it's so easy to get caught up with that in recruiting is like, you know, if someone says no to you, you're like, oh man, like whoever you are, like sometimes it just, it doesn't feel good. You know, hearing no doesn't feel good to anyone, but really like understanding that you have to detach from whether or not someone wants to talk to you or not and not to take it personally. Right. Like they're not, they're not saying no to you because they don't like you. They're saying no because maybe the timing isn't right. Maybe they just got a promotion in their job. Right. Maybe they just moved, they just accepted a new job. There's so many variables that happen in this industry. And his, Josh Braun's big, like one of his big principles is like detaching from outcomes. Like, you know, don't pressure someone to accept a job that isn't gonna be a good fit for them, right? Because that's not gonna be good for you. It's not gonna be good for the client. It's not gonna be good for the candidate. So really detaching, letting people make decisions that are best for themselves is something that I wish I probably learned sooner. Um, but knowing that, like, knowing what I know now, like, I keep, uh, I keep a Post-it note on my desk like every day. It says detach. Like, I just, I always look at it and I'm like, okay, like, that sucked. Like, I thought I had this guy, but like, you know, he, there's obviously a reason he's not doing this. Or like, there's obviously a reason this client doesn't want to work with me. Maybe they work with someone else, right? So like, detaching from outcomes is just number one, helps your mindset so much, like, mentally. Um, and you don't waste your time, you know? Like, you're, you're not going to convince someone to take a job that that they don't want to take. And even if you do, it's probably not going to be— it's not probably not going to work out for anyone in that scenario, you know.

Yeah, I've got a— I don't know why I've got to mention this, Jeff, but, um, yeah, I remember when I was watching Josh Braun— I love his content, by the way, I think he's awesome— yeah, I remember like for some reason he drifted out my algorithm, then he popped up like a— like load— like consistently popping up in my feed. And it was, it was when there was a period of— have you heard, have you heard of Justin Michael by any chance?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Justin Michael was like trolling his content. Yes, you remember that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was just so funny. Justin Michael was like, I don't know, just like being really weird about it and just like kind of trying to prod him and like kind of annoyed and like, I don't know, like belittle him. It was, it was so weird. But, um, I don't know, I just wanted to know if you, if you were like observing that as well. It was so strange.

Of course, yeah, I, I follow everything he posts and newsletters and videos. Like, I read everything. I think being like, I've done all the sales trainings and methodologies and like software sales, nothing has hit for me at least quite like, like Josh Braun. And I, you know, I just think personally that in recruiting, like, there's so many high-pressure sales tactics. Like, I learned them in my first agency. Like, you know, all these cold calls, trying to force people on calls or meetings with you. Like, it just doesn't work. Like, at the end of the day, like, you're gonna spend so much of your sales calories on trying to convince people when really it should be making sure that it's gonna be a good fit, you know? So that's what he preaches and like, that's for my personality, it works really well. I think that a lot of people in recruiting go about it the opposite way and when someone hears from you, where they're like detached from the outcome, you know, it kind of settles people a little bit like, okay, like this guy, you know, he's not pressuring me to take this job or jump on a call or, you know, and it makes people feel a little bit better.

I know we're wrapping up in a second, but definitely the biggest, the biggest lesson I learned in sales was just almost like being willing to push people away. Um, and not push people purposely to sell them back, but just to be, as you say, detaching from the outcome is the best way to frame it, for sure. Because then they can see you're being completely honest and just wanting to help them, and you've got no other agenda.

Totally.

I think people can fish that and smell that, you know, very, very quickly and easily. Absolutely. Justin. Sorry, not Justin. You're not Justin. Justin Michaels in my head now. I'm thinking about him. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today, mate. I really enjoyed this podcast. You gave some absolute golden nuggets today. So thank you so much, mate. Really appreciate your time and thank you for coming on.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was great talking to you both.

Thanks, Jeff.

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