This Recruiter has billed $750K+ for 30 years straight. (Master of Consistency)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is David Bradley. David has consistently billed $700,000 to $1.1 million every year for 30 years. Not only that, but he scaled a recruitment business to 55 people doing $16 to $20 million annually without any outside investment at all. In today's episode, David's going to be explaining his 10-5-2 formula when it comes to BD. He's going explaining to us some of his cold calling techniques that he uses to reach out to prospects and win new business. And finally, David's going to be talking to us about his mindset, the insane consistency that's required to build his numbers for 30 years straight while running a very successful business. Guys, David's energy is infectious. He is a lovely human being and absolutely dedicated to the craft of recruitment and sales. We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did. As usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this. And let's get into it, shall we? Wait a second, guys, quick question for you. If you could land a new client on LinkedIn in the next couple weeks, how much would that be worth to you? $20,000, $30,000, maybe $40,000? Well, we have a pretty crazy offer on right now. If you are a recruitment business owner, then we will work with you for free and write you 2 posts at absolutely no cost. And here's the cool part, other recruiters that have come through this free trial have managed to win new clients, They've racked up hundreds of thousands of impressions and started conversations with top-tier candidates. It's completely risk-free, so you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you're interested, the link's in the description below. If not, no worries. We hope you enjoy the podcast. See you later.

David, thank you so much for joining us today, my friend. How are you?

Very good. Very good, guys. Pleasure to join you guys after many years of listening to your, uh, your podcast. It's been great to be— finally be a guest.

Amazing, man. And, uh, I'm particularly excited about this episode, David, and very impressed the fact that you've built a pretty big business, roughly 55 recruiters doing a lot of annual revenue, and you are still billing yourself, which I think is pretty insane, and doing some very good numbers at that. So really excited to get into that. But before we jump into that, I'm going to ask you the same question as we do every guest, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit whether it'll be a mindset, strategy, or software?

Well, Ben, that's an easy one. It's, it's absolutely mindset. I think without the mindset, you, uh, you know, it's the foundation, right? It's, it's really planting your— the time and the focus and, uh, in the— into the business and, and giving it your all every day. That's absolutely by far and away the, uh, the biggest tool in my toolkit, for sure. Absolutely.

And I'm always fascinated in, in this question, David, where How did you cultivate your mindset? Because, you know, recruitment is a tough job and you've been doing it for many years very successfully. And I'm so— I'm just wondering, has it been a constant battle mindset? Are you naturally just a positive, hardworking person that doesn't need to work on mindset? I'm just curious how you would—

Yeah, it's sort of in my DNA, Sam. I, I grew up, you know, a mom that was a workhorse. She worked from, you know, dusk to dawn every day. I mean, it's every single day. And that was I learned the hard work and what that meant. And I had a— coming out of high school, I had a lawn care business, landscaping business. I built that. I learned how to work, sweat, and build something with my hands. And that it was taking all those work habits, I think, just naturally translated into recruiting and the hard work that's required. So, it's just—

Interesting.

Absolutely. It's in the DNA, I think. But there are struggles. There are ups and downs, right? There are good days and bad days. I think the focusing on the task and the focus, focus has really been the key to look at the bigger picture.

And, and, uh, for sure, so sounds like you, you were just exposed to work ethic from a very young age, David, and that has been instilled in you. And now working hard and continuing is just a—

it's—

there's not even a question that arises in your brain. You just continue and you work hard. Am I right in saying that?

I just take pride. I mean, I take pride in what I'm doing. And I, you know, I, I look at the business and I'm like, I've got You know, how many hours a week to, to do this business? And you can be, you can decide to be excellent and have the fruits of the fruits of your labor be double, triple, quadruple what the next person. So I just, it's about your time and energy and your focus. So if I'm gonna do this for 50 hours a week, 60 hours a week, I'm gonna make it count and I'm not gonna waste time. I'm gonna be very focused. So when I leave the, the doors of work, I can go and, and, and enjoy it too. So it's, it's, uh, yes, for sure. The focus aspect of it and, um, knowing everyone, we've all got the same amount of time each day. Right, 86,400 seconds a day.

I love that you know that, David, that's awesome.

Um, and that, I think that brings us nicely on to the next question. It's kind of written down, but it's, it's kind of, I've put two questions together here. You, you, you have roughly 55 recruiters doing between $60 and $20 million in annual, um, revenue, which is amazing, David. And you're still billing to this day, which I find amazing. And you're billing between $700K up to $1.1 million. Um, and I'm just like, how does David do that? I'm like, how the hell does David do that and manage a business? Must be pretty insane. So you probably have— you probably treat your hours, your 50 to 60 hours, slightly differently to the average person, David. What are those?

Um, the way with the division of labor within our partnership, there's 3 of us, and, um, Doug, our, um, managing partners, his, his role is to manage the business, manage the operation. He's an operations guru. He's got a very good, uh, That's his strength and ability to do that. Chris has got the— he works a desk. By the way, everyone's working a desk except for 2 of our employees. And he's got a blend of managing people and overseeing and mentoring and then billing. But he doesn't have as big a billing objective. And then for me, it's be the workhorse. I mean, we're all— all 3 of us are bringing new heads into the firm, new people that we believe are going to do this for the rest of their life. That's our belief that everyone we hire. So that's why I can, I think, focus so much, because I know that the other things are taken care of.

Got it, okay, that makes a lot of sense. And so, what are the things that you're mainly investing your time in? So let's say, let's go into an average week for you then, David. What are the main things you're focusing on on a weekly basis, if you were to whittle it down to like 2 to 3 main things?

Yeah, I'm a sort of nuts and bolts guy. I mean, I call it old school. I mean, the phone is the, is still the tool of choice. And I'm one of these guys that has to have a list every day, a very focused list of what I need to do. So, it's a planned call list of at least 50 calls that I know it's like, you know, it's going to happen the minute I get in. So, there's a cadence to starting the day strong and having a good plan that night before. I'm a big believer in marketing and, you know, a lot of organic marketing. We do Zoom info blasts and engage you know, all kinds of tools we use to identify new clients. But a lot of my successes come from just the add-on questions and asking those questions. So that's part of, it's almost like if you have the 50 calls planned, you know, everything else kind of flows from there. So that's been a big plus.

[Speaker] Interesting. So you have this list of 50 people ready at your desk, you know, to call every morning. Am I right in saying that, David?

[Speaker] That's correct. Yep. Those are based on, you know, searches we've, searches we already have in the door that we have to work on, Or they could be new candidates I need to reach out to for other people's searches. Or it could be some of those are marketing calls too, where I'm marketing outbound. I've got 3 or 4 clients I'm trying to target with a candidate, an NPC candidate. So it's sort of a blend of all 3, but it's having that plan every morning, having those 50 calls planned. And then if I have that plan, then, you know, The crazy distractions you have in this business that take you a million different directions are going to— it's all— it's— it— that's going to happen by osmosis, all those extra calls. But it's going to be having— having the plan is key.

Interesting. And do you do that plan the night before, or do you do that a week ahead? Like, when do you actually do that planning, uh, David?

Yeah, I, you know, I'm a 7-day guy. I like to on the weekend kind of go through and look at the bigger picture of what I'm working on the next week, what clients I want to target. So So I've got a master sort of idea what I want to do, but then on a daily basis, I'm having those 50 planned. I may not have everything written down, but I know where to access those 50 names. So I've got a— and I'm a writer. I like to have things. I like to have a pad in front of me, kind of old school, and I'll translate stuff into our CRM and stuff like that. But it's a lot of just old school, grind it out, having the calls, having those connections.

Love that. And—

but it's done the night— that's done the night before. The daily is done the night before as best I can. It's not a perfect world, so some days it stretches into the morning, but yeah.

Yeah, cool. Love that. So sounds like you're doing 50 calls every day, David, pretty consistently.

Uh, try to.

Yeah.

One thing—

what, sorry, David, I just wanted to ask this. The one— because I was fascinated by the lists, and if there's anything me and Ben have learned about BD is that the lists are basically the fundamentals to good BD. If you have a good list, you can make BD like 50 times easier. If you have a bad list, you're basically chasing, chasing your tail. So I'm curious, what if you were to prepare a list and sit down and call, who would be the first people that you would be like, yes, I know if I contact these people, the chances that I'm gonna get a call booked is pretty high. Are there any key things you look out for in terms of building good lists?

I would say two-thirds of that list are recruiting calls. So there'll be, there'll be, I'm working on a search and we tend to be engineering manufacturing focused, although we do, we have, we're in a lot of verticals with the, a team of 55, we've got, you know, a slew of different verticals we're working in, but they tend to be technical engineering, manufacturing, sales. So those are recruitment calls. A lot of those are recruitment calls. And then I look at every recruitment call as an opportunity for BD. So I mean, I'm asking add-on questions to every candidate I talk to, you know, where are they, where do they, uh, if they're an active candidate looking for, looking for, you know, to make a move, I'm, uh, I'm asking them a ton of good questions like Where else have they interviewed? I'm asking them, like diving into, you know, tell me about your company. Why are you looking to leave? What, you know, I'm asking them who else in their company is also looking. I mean, it's a constant, it's 2, 3 questions deep once you build that rapport. And then, so from that spews another follow-up questions. And those are calls I'll make in the future, but just not to get too, yeah, deviate, but that's sort of the, the foundation, uh, of the calls. But then there's BD calls too, where I've got, you know, I've got from LinkedIn, I'm working with, you know, various CEOs or to various HR directors. And I know that there's companies I want to target where I know I've got a candidate I can market in.

Um, love that.

That's really cool.

If I was an almost brand new recruiter listening to this, David, and I was like, wow, um, David's managing to turn recruitment calls into possible BD calls, can you just run through what the most important things are You mentioned some questions there, like what are you looking for in order to get to the point where you're like, oh yes, this is a good lead? Like what are the kind of signals that you're looking for? Let's assume you're jumping into a recruitment call and you're asking these, these questions.

Yeah, I look for someone that's receptive, where there's just a good, a good rapport being built. I feel like the stronger the rapport, the more I'm going to be able to just go into the headwind. And sometimes it's a two-call thing. It's, it's not going to all happen on one call if this person's at work and they're busy and they can't talk, that kind of thing. But It's really sensing the rapport, sensing that that person's open to talking. And then, and I, it's, it's, I frame it around the person, right? It's not, this is not about me, it's about them. So how can I, you know, as an example, where else are you interviewing is more a function of, hey, where, where, where do I need to stay away from if I've come to you?

Yeah.

Like I've got this company that I think would be at this role I'm working on that I'm representing that could be a great fit for you, but let's not just stop there. Let's, let's look at the bigger picture. So I'll, I'll dive into that with them. And, um, ultimately, you know, they're gonna take one job and then let's say in the next 30 days, 60 days, they're taking getting a job. Well, there's 6 other companies they told me that are— they interviewed at. Yeah, so those are just really warm leads. I won't chase those until, until the dust settles and that, that person's accepted a role. But so it's, it's really— I think the rapport is the big thing. And, um, and people, I think people generally want to help you if you, if you, if you approach it the right way. But it's, it's got to be what's— it's got to be what's in it for them. So love that.

That's really, really interesting. And it's like, yeah, as you said, like you can get 6, 5 to 6 new leads just finding out where else they're interviewing, which is really interesting. Um, and then I'm guessing you take a note of that and put that on your BD list for a later date. Yeah, for sure.

Have you, um, sorry, David, me and Ben have this, uh, tendency to pepper guests with questions one after the other.

Once we're in, we're like, oh yeah, without even breathing. So, uh, thank you for dealing with us.

Um, I was gonna say, David, out of all the questions you ask candidates in order to get leads, is there one that keeps on giving more leads than others? Like, where are you interviewing, or is there Is there one particular question that tends to get you the best results out of interest?

I, I think where they're interviewing, because that gives me a good snapshot of the marketplace and what's happening. Then I'll ask them, hey, was it through a recruiter on your own? It's a natural next question. So I want to know that, and that tells me, hey, is this, this company using recruiters right now? So, um, that's probably the best one. But, you know, and if all else fails, I'll just ask them, how, how, tell me, my favorite question of all time is, how's business? It's just how's business? And people generally want it, you know, how they answer that question is another back to you, Ben, in, you know, what's that one question that gives you the most leverage? Maybe that's the one. How's business? Because it's open-ended. They can talk. They'll start sharing with me more about their company and what's going on in those four walls. And, you know, who else is looking? How many vacancies are going to be there in the next 3 months because of all these candidates that are folks that are looking? So, It's, um, it's a very organic and it's a fun way to do the business, I find, because you're just— you're having natural conversations, you're building rapport. Um, for sure.

I love that. So funny how simple it sounds. It's like, how's business? And then they just end up going off on like some massive tangent and telling you everything. I can imagine.

We've got, you know, about our 55 recruiters, we're working in a lot of different spaces. And I'll, I'll throw, you know, just— I'll ask, ask for names, you know. If they're in, they're in quality, let's say, and I've got a quality director job and I'm there, a quality engineer, I'll ask them, hey, you know what, gosh, we're working on this quality. You wouldn't happen to know who's the quality director at your company? Because I know that could be a prospect for this job. I'm like, hey, then they'll tell you a lot of times. You're not asking who you know, because when you ask who you know, that gets challenging because people get defensive. They don't want to give those names up. But when you just go right into the headwind, who is the quality director at 'Who is that?' And I'll even sometimes I'll go as far as, 'Hey, it's not so-and-so, is it?' And you're not knowing that that name is not, but just kind of going into the headwind of you sound like you're, you know, and they'll, they'll, they're very kind to share that with you.

Yeah, interesting. Um, this is a question I just thought of, David, so forgive me, it's not on the list, but it's, it is relevant, or at least, uh, closely related. I'm thinking now that you're in a unique position where you've got like 55 recruiters, or, you know, a lot of recruiters that you're observing you can look at the data, you can see how active they are, you can see how many calls they're making. And let's assume that you only work with good recruiters, so we're going to put that out there, only good recruiters. But I'm sure that even in your business you've got recruiters that are performing like at the top of their game, and people that are maybe, you know, the higher, the higher performers of the group. I'm really curious to know, what are they doing differently? Like the people that are constantly hitting the top of the leaderboard What are those recruiters doing differently from the other recruiters in the business?

Yeah, that's a good question. We've had to cover this in our meeting yesterday, our staff meeting. I— every one of our top billers, for the most part, have clients. They have jobs to work. And, um, we use the analogy, it's like real estate, right? If you, you have a— you have your, your, uh, your post in the ground and you're the person listing that house, you're going to win no matter what, right? People are coming in to buy the house. So kind of like recruiting, if you don't have job orders you're at the mercy of working other people's job orders, which is great. We need that support and we want recruiters here that are headhunters that are 360, that are, you know, building their desk with clients and then also having that recruiting arm. So it's, that's a big part of it, right? Having clients, having clients, and then it's, this has always been and always will be an activity-driven business. So the ones with the most activity tend to, tend to do well. So I don't know how to more nuts and bolts that, that, uh, no, that's a good starter, uh, David.

And so now what I'm thinking is like, let's, if we can go a little bit deeper, if you have the data on it anyway, um, these top billers, let's go into the activity. Are they doing like twice as many calls? Are they doing emails and calls? Like, I, I want to try and give the person listening to this the best insight into what a top biller is doing so they can possibly replicate it. So what are these top billers doing like tangibly that's different from the other people, if you see what I mean? So they're getting jobs, they're more activity. Are there any kind of more specific things you can go into?

You know, I think they're bringing it every day. They're, they're making the calls. And I find even within the group, um, there's, there's ones that are very, very good at account managing, and we've got a few that are, you know, finding their way to half a million to $700,000 to $800,000 as billers, and they're doing it from pure clients where the other people are filling their jobs. They're just very good at harnessing the internal building internal equity within our team to bring people onto their desk. And then there's some that are more, they've got that recruiting muscle. They're probably more on that heavier on that side where they're filling, they're just, their heads are on a swivel. They're helping, you know, they're filling jobs all over the country in different aspects. And they might be filling one of our recruiters in Sarasota their job, and then they're filling one with our group in Grand Rapids. And then they're filling, they're just, they're very, very focused on the recruiting side. But I would say the, yeah, in terms of if there's one thing, there tend to be, high phone, they have high phone volume, high email volume, high cadence. They're, they're bringing it every day. They're, they're consistent.

Interesting. Um, go ahead, Sam.

No, I was just going to pivot slightly to, um, the MPC approach, David, because if there's one strategy me and Ben have heard the most on this podcast from the top billers, you know, people billing $1 million, $2 million, and $500K plus, it's the MPC, um, method. And I'm just curious when you are MPCing, so to speak, is there— what is the best practices that you use in order to make sure that you're going to give you the best possible chances to get a win? Are there a few things that you like to tick off?

Yeah, I mean, the more I can know about— and I don't need to go into, you know, a deep research project on the company, but the more I know, have, you know, with all the AI tools we have out there, to be able to do a quick query about a company or about a role or about a culture so you can sell or pitch directly to that company to what their pain points might be. But the more of that, and then it's really doing that homework and then it's having the goods. I mean, when you have the right candidate, most companies are going to want to hear about it, hear about that candidate. Now, when somebody's— we get into those large Fortune 500 companies, which tends not to be our focus, it's more of that mid-cap, mid-small-cap, I'd say, where you can get to decision makers and there's more receptivity to, hey, you've got a candidate, this is the job. Yeah. It's really, it's, I would say it's, I don't know if I answered your question, Sam.

I think you did. Yeah. And I'm curious what would make the, so you said, you know, one of the main things is pitching the right candidate, which makes sense. If you've got a candidate that's in demand, you put it in front of the right people, the chances of magic happening are probably quite high. What is the right candidate in your world, David? If you were to look at a candidate and be like, okay, this guy or this gal, if I pitch them, the chance of them getting a job is very high. What does that look like in your world out of interest?

Yeah, well, first and foremost, they're motivated. I mean, they've got a specific, specific, they're not, they're probably running away from something. That's something, right? And then also maybe running to something, but there's a strong motivation and we can articulate the motivation. What is it that you're looking to do? So they're not, hopefully not a counteroffer risk or anything like that. So they're highly motivated, they're reasonable on salary. They're not looking for a 25% increase. I mean, there's reason in there. And they're probably mid-career where they've got a lot of runway left in their career, you know, and/or they're very niche. There's a niche element to their background. They've got that product or process or a win or results that this new company wants, whether it's a salesperson, they've got, you know, proven track record of winning business in that space, or they're an engineer that's got that exact product and process. They're niched that way. And they're probably, if it's a relocation scenario, they're easy relos. They're not necessarily, you know, have a large family and kids and, you know, in busy years of life where it's going to be hard to unplug them. So, but there's no rhyme or reason. That's probably, those are probably, and they're going to work our way. They're going to return calls. They're going to be cooperative. They're going to understand that our, they're going to value our role in the process. So, I'll take candidates and I'll bear hug them and I'll say, okay, that's where the, if you know, you want to work with me, this is a team approach. This is what we're going to do. This is what it, this is This is what it means to take me off my desk to focus on you as a candidate.

I just had this image, David, of you giving a candidate a bear hug.

That was good. I'm like, I want them all. I don't want them— well, and I tell them, like, I don't need an exclusive. I don't need, you know, you can, you know, you can talk to— I don't want you to hold you from talking to other recruiters or companies, but I really want, I want me to be your focus. And I want, you know, if you hear about a job, I don't want you applying direct to stuff. I want you sending that job description to me or a job posting and let me see if I can help you first. If I can't, you know, and I don't own you as a candidate, but I, I, if we're going to put time and energy into this, I need, I need your cooperation. I need you to value what I'm doing for sure.

Interesting.

And then one, sorry, one last follow-on question from that, David. I've heard two of your most successful BD tactics at the moment, which is speaking to candidates and getting information from them to get hot leads. An NPC, which one is more successful? If you had to choose one and, and someone was like, hey David, you can only choose one for the rest of the year, choose one, which one would you choose in order to get more business?

I think it's the subtle, just add, add-on questions and asking questions and finding out where people are interviewing and being kind of being that, getting market, market intel that's free. And you're getting it, you're getting it real time, and you're finding out that this candidate just turned a job down at ABC Company a week ago. Because the location wasn't right or the salary wasn't right or some reason. And now that's gold, right? Because I can go out and I've got, I do have the right candidate for that role. So I can target. So I think that's just such a natural byproduct of every phone call. So every phone call has value. It's not, you don't have to necessarily take your foot off the recruiting pedal and all of a sudden I'm over here with a different list of names doing business development. It's all integrated where every call has value because getting someone on the phone is half the challenge sometimes, having the opportunity to pitch or to— right.

So yeah, really interesting.

Thank you, David. That's, that's really valuable.

Um, I'd love to go back to the ChatGPT bit because we haven't— I mean, of course, um, AI, we've talked about AI in the pod a few times, but I haven't actually talked about, uh, in detail about researching a company before you approach them. I'm wondering if you've got any insight, David. Do you just type in the company and say, like, in my mind might be a bit simple, but in my mind I'd be like, um, hey, I'm looking at this company, and I'd literally go into ChatGPT and be like, hey, I've spotted this company in X, Y, and Z, what can you tell me about it? What are they struggling with? What are their finances look like? And I would let ChatGPT run and just tell me as much as I can. Is that similar to what you would do, David?

Absolutely, yeah. And I consider myself a novice when it comes to technology, but that's something that I'm embracing full on. I feel like that's just a natural strength, why not have it at our disposal at all, all the time? So I, yeah, I'm doing a lot of that where I'm finding out, you know, I've even taken a candidate and going to market and saying, hey, do some chat to, to look at what the marketplace looks like for that candidate. What, how should this, what company should this candidate be targeting? And, um, and then, and then when, once I get the companies I wanna target, let me tell me a lot more about those companies. You know, what kind of hiring are they doing? Are they likely to use recruiters? Are they, you know, I can ask a million questions. I'm working on some GPTs right now that'll help me in that endeavor, but it's, it's, it's, it's not going anywhere. It's here to stay. And I think the recruiters that use, uh, are able to use AI in effective way are going to be the ones that win in the next 5, 10 years. Yeah, win even next year because it's coming strong and fast.

Yeah.

What I found ChatGPT to be, and just AI in general, to be incredibly helpful for— and I've only kind of, um, I felt this, uh, like definitely in a stronger way since me and Tom have been developing our product in the last few weeks and few months. But it's basically helping you to like critically think about what you're doing and, and what you're— what you should be doing to solve difficult problems. And I'm not vocalizing it very well, but it's just— I feel like just having a conversation with ChatGPT for me and really asking it tough questions helped me to get to the truth a lot faster. And it's just really interesting because we just live a really— we're in a really fascinating time in, I think, in history where we have that ability to have a conversation with something that's incredibly smart, that has data available in almost every corner of the globe that we can use to our advantage to get to the— to our goals faster. And this thing's amazing. Like, it's been so helpful for me in the last few weeks especially. Um, and I think as you say, Dev, if more recruiters can use it, they, they should be able to speak to people, uh, come up with better strategies and figure out information faster, which is, um, really cool.

Yeah, there's so many hacks that you can do to be— if you want to, if you're looking to study a niche, you want to get deeper into your niche and understand who all the players are, and, or, you know, your LinkedIn pages— goes on and on, right, what you can do with it. And it's, uh, it's, it's a really good That's such a good point.

It's like if a recruiter is not a niche expert yet and they want to get— and they want to become an expert a lot faster, there should be a process around ChatGPT to do that like 10 times faster. Obviously, you know, niche experience comes with doing the work and actually being in the trenches, but I feel like the beginning stages could be used— ChatGPT could be used for that as well, which is interesting. Sorry, I'm going down a rabbit hole now, guys, but I've got a question just on the ChatGPT, David.

I know you said you're a novice with technology. But I'm just wondering if there was one— I'm a big fan of this question. So I ask it a lot, David, if there was one piece of data that you could gather, or that you are gathering from ChatGPT in order to give you a better lead or a better chance to get hold of the client, what would it be? What's the thing you're typing in that seems to be the most valuable?

I would say I'm, you know, I look— well, It's what companies to target. I would say like if I have a good candidate and I'm marketing them in a certain geography and they're all a little asked chat, you know, where should I target this company? Where's this candidate the best fit at? And then, you know, I'll get deeper with the prompt. But yeah, and I'll streamline the prompt. But yeah, absolutely go to the headwind with that. And then how should I pitch this candidate? Now help me with the write-up and help me. How do I want to— what makes this candidate excellent for these companies? Why are they a good fit for this job? And then have chat help you build the write-up. Not necessarily, you know, plug and play, but yeah, it does help a lot to, uh—

that's awesome.

Time and time and, uh, time and efficiency, right?

For us, haven't actually heard of it, heard a recruiter, uh, word it in that way, like putting a candidate in and saying, hey, what companies would, would, you know, what companies is this candidate right for? Um, I think that's really— that's, uh, simple. But I'm And have you found when you're going to market from what ChatGPT has advised, have you found that those have actually worked, David? Obviously not all of them, but like, have you found that they've worked in terms of like the response rate and actually getting conversations?

Yeah, it does. It's, I've only been doing this for about probably 3 to 6 months of just really using, trying to use chat for that aspect. But yeah, I think it does help. It gives you, it arms you with way more information. About the companies and the players and what, and what some, some, you know, trends that they're going through and stuff like that for sure. And then, and then it can help once you get, if you're able to get interviews or get traction as to, you know, how this candidate should market themselves. What are some things that this candidate, what are some pitfalls? What are some shortfalls that this candidate might not have that they're looking for? What, so you just, there's so many different angles to play it. You know, the key is for this tool, which is awesome, not to distract from your next phone call, right? Because that's at the end of the day, it's a numbers game and it's, It's easy to get down, like you said, rabbit holes earlier where you're— next thing you know, you're researching something that's completely unrelated. Then it's a productivity drag, right?

With your MPC pitching, David, are you always picking up the phone to people and pitching the MPC on the phone, or are you doing it via email out of interest?

A lot of times I'll start with an email. I'll start with an engage, and we use ZoomInfo, so we'll do a blast that way first. And then try to get traction. And then it's, then it's a phone call to those companies.

Cool.

So it's a follow-up, and then it may be another reach out, another second email. Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's one, two, or three reach outs before the phone, you know, before we engage with a phone call. But we'll tell them, hey, we're going to be calling you in the next 48 hours to talk about this candidate. So then they're ready, they're curious about it.

Love that. That's such a similar strategy to other top billers we've had, which is like send an email, leave a voicemail is a very common one as well, David. So send an email, leave a voicemail telling them about the email and then following up with multiple emails and definitely a call as well. So the voicemail one has been really useful for a lot of people.

Absolutely.

But that's super, super useful.

Ben, I've got another— I'm going to go off track, but is there any question you have on the BD side?

You go ahead, man. I think there's a— well, maybe just one. David, is there anything— and we may have covered all the topics that Again, assuming that there's a newbie recruiter listening to us right now, um, is there everything— is there anything that you want to add on the BD perspective that might be helpful for other people? If there's not, it's fine. I just like asking that question.

Yeah, big thing I think is get out of your comfort zone. I mean, it's— I remember when I got in the business, someone finally told me, you know, I, I had not written any jobs in the first, let's say, 6-9 months. This goes back a long— a lot of years. But when a person was mentoring me asked me why I didn't have job orders, I didn't have a good answer for him. Like, why? Well, I think it's a comfort zone thing. You get comfortable recruiting, you're comfortable on that side of the desk, and It's the one thing that's going to recession-proof your business is to have your own accounts. So you got to get after it and you got to do it and you got to get uncomfortable and you got to make mistakes. And, you know, I'd rather see the phone calls, the sloppiest, worst phone calls and, you know, someone make all these mistakes. But then, you know, we forget that gets quickly forgotten once they land the business or they want to, that company wants to see that candidate. So it's, It's, it's a good trick.

I love that.

Yeah, absolutely love that response. And it's really interesting you say that because it's like, if there was— I, I'd bet you, or maybe not for everyone, but the people that are really struggling for clients at the moment, an interesting question would be like, how uncomfortable are you on a daily basis at the moment at work? And I bet you a lot of them are fairly comfortable and they're not really pushing themselves. And I mean, this is a generalized statement, but because I speak to so many recruiters who are struggling for business, and then I dig down to like what they're actually doing activity-wise. A lot of them aren't doing a lot of activity. So, you know, that, that's a direct correlation with, you know, that, that's an indicator that they're not really stretching themselves and they're not trying to be uncomfortable. So I think that, well, that's really simple. I think it's really important to like just observe, like, any recruiter listening to this, how many clients you have, how uncomfortable are you on a daily basis, are you really pushing yourself to get clients, or are you just staying in your comfort zone? Because I think that's It's really important.

Yeah. And the one thing, if you're coming to this, you don't have clients and you're working on it, we believe we've got the, I guess, the benefit because we've got 55 recruiters and we've got, you know, we've got all these different tentacles of business. We're writing jobs every day. There's deals getting boarded every week. So there's a lot of different— there's a lot of choice the recruiter has to go down different paths because we don't necessarily micromanage them. We do in the beginning to get them up to speed. But once they get their legs underneath them and they're billing, we, we kind of, this is an entrepreneurial, you know, adult environment. People, we let them give, give them enough, uh, freedom to, to go different directions. But it's, if you're working a job, get be, you know, and it's a certain product or process, get in that, get in that business and help recruit on that job with the mindset that you want to, uh, develop business in that account. So don't, don't work a job where you don't want to get job orders in that space. So it's just, it's, uh, everything you go, every vertical you go down, you can, you, you have that mindset of how to how to go after, go after business. It's not just, you never, you're never just in a recruit, pure recruiting play.

So you're encouraging your recruiters to go after account, go after businesses where you can land and expand? And is that what you mean, uh, David? Like actually expand within the business and, and get multiple roles from one client?

Yeah. Or if you're, let's say I'm working on someone else's account and I'm helping, uh, fill another person's job in our company and it's a safety director. Well, go, go in with the mindset that you want to get another safety director job order. With a new client. Because, you know, if that, if there's one company and that's that geography looking for a safety director, the chances are there's someone else looking for a safety director or maybe a safety manager or maybe a safety, um, I use that analogy, but it's, yeah. So you're going in with the mindset to ask those add-on questions where you're gonna, the candidates you recruit, you're gonna get, you're gonna ask add-ons for those candidates. And next thing you know, you're gonna hopefully know other companies in that space looking for the same person.

So sorry, Sam, one more question before we, uh, divert from the BD. I just want to—

I'm not diverting, I want to just, um, sorry, I'll let you go, Mengun.

Sorry, just one more. Um, David, in terms of like how you're presenting the— let's say you get someone on the phone and you've got this standout candidate, um, and you've got them, they've picked up and said, hey, this is John speaking, whatever. What are you saying in those first kind of 10 seconds to get people to actually listen to you? Or like, what is the hook, or what are the— what's the thing that you're saying, if you don't mind me asking?

You know, I'll try to— I mean, my first thing is always to build rapport and to try to get them off— take them off their guard a little bit. So, you know, just maybe some small talk, or if I, you know, talk about, you know, whether it's the weather or whatever, I can kind of steer. But it's really just getting that, and then I get right into the pitch, right into the candidate. And I don't misrepresent who I am. I'm a headhunter, I've got this candidate, I've, you know, we just had some success, we filled another role, try to relate it to another position we just filled in your space. So there's, there's a credibility. And then I go right into the headwind. I don't waste a lot of time.

So it's, it's interesting because it sounds like the beginning stages aren't just like— because there's a lot of recruiters have like the, the typical line which is, hey, uh, this is a cold call, will you give me 30 seconds, yes or no? I can't remember exactly what the line is, but it sounds like you're actually just trying to build rapport instead of like a typical like sales pitch. Am I right in saying that, David?

Yeah, yeah, I, I, you try, you try not to sell at the beginning. Yes, you're, you're trying to build that, get, catch them off their guard a little bit for sure. Sure. Where it's not, it's not just a typical cold call, it's kind of that rapport and then boom, right into the, right into the candidate.

Because I might be, um, I, I, this isn't, this is me being a little bit cynical, uh, David, so forgive me, but if I'm like a cold prospect and, and a random person's trying to build rapport with me, I'll just be like I'll just put the phone down. I'll be like, what, who's— who is this? So how are you getting that, like, how are you getting the, the rapport building from a, from a cold prospect?

Well, I'll try to relate it to something I'm working on. Maybe there's a— hopefully a, a generated lead that I've kind of come in there. It's— I've been made aware of this, and I try to build credibility that way, that there's knowledge I have that I can share that for sure.

Got it. Because so you're going in with some context initially. All right, yeah.

For sure. Yeah, cool.

Um, I just want to go back to that, um, moment, uh, David, when you said you were— you didn't have any job orders. And I think you said your manager came up and said, hey, why haven't you got any job orders? And you came to the conclusion that it was your comfort zone. I'm just curious what you did after that. Like, you obviously got job orders and you're very successful now, but in that moment when you were like, oh, I need to get out of my comfort zone, what did you do? Was it just picking up the phones? Was it going for runs? Was it cold showers? I love a cold shower.

It was, it was really as a frame of mind reference check to say, hey, you know what, I, why can't I do this? I, I saw big billers is up, you know, way up here. And I was just a new guy kind of learning the business. Number one, believe you can do it. And then it was just, yeah, going out there and, and, and doing it and then stumbling a bit. And what I found after filling a couple jobs, I'm like, this is, this is a lot more, it's easier, it's fun. And it's like, what was I, what was I worried about? So it's just, it's going to the headwind and being afraid to fail or not afraid to fail. So I think a lot of it's fear of failure, your fear that just these things get in your head. So yeah, I mean, first company was just going out there and then marketing and marketing a candidate. And I remember it was a diesel engine company. We market and I got the job order, got the fill, and it was in the Detroit area. But anyway, long time ago, but it was just that it's getting over that fear of failure and just going after it.

Yeah, love that. And it's Funny though, if you are on that constant trajectory of success and you want to grow personally, when you get to the next stage, you realize that it's all about shattering belief systems. Like, you get to the next stage, you're like, whoa, I can do this, and this is easier than I thought. And then you get to the next stage. And then I just find it fascinating how if you're on that growth trajectory, you are shattering belief systems like one at a time. And I find that process amazing that you can, you know, something that has been ingrained in you for many years, you can shatter it and get to the next level. Sounds like you were doing something similar.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Then, you know, that's the hard part. Once you get in the account, and that's what we, we pride ourselves— once we get in the business and we fill a couple roles, we have some success, we build that, and then we've had clients we work with for 20 years now who trust us. We've built, we've built a, a great business. So it's not, it's not all pure, you know, business development every day. It's, it's, you know, that you're always putting new clients in the funnel, but you've got just a great plethora of clients that continue to work with you. So love that.

Um, I have, uh, got one more question my end, and it's more of a, it's a kind of a selfish question, David. I'm sure it's going to help a lot of people, but I'm just curious from someone that's, uh, scaled a business, you've got 55-odd employees now, what has been the most challenging part of, of scaling your business? Were there particular moments when you had, um, the most growth or the most beliefs that you needed to shatter? Were there any? What comes to mind when I say that?

Yeah, I look at it, it's interesting over the years, we, you know, we were founded in 2010 and it's not been a complete upward trajectory. I feel it's almost like a stepladder where we call it draft classes each year where we've brought in new people and you, we usually shouldn't have to say goodbye to anyone. And if we didn't have to say goodbye to anyone, the ladder would be climbing a lot quicker. But this business isn't for everybody. So you get into it and you have the best intentions. We don't hire anybody who we don't believe that could be in this business for the rest of their life, right? But that's probably not going to happen with everyone. So each year it's a step, step. Probably the toughest challenge has been seeing great people, saying goodbye to great people. You bring great people in this business and they're not cut out for this type of work. Or when you— the other tough thing is when you want it more than they want it, and that's a challenge. So I'd say that again, I don't know if that answers directly, but that's probably the toughest thing. Yeah. And there's no perfect template of a hire. I mean, it's one of those things, if I had this perfect template, I could sell it and make millions. But there's so many different walks of life that can do this business and do it well. And I look at the group we have, They're all very unique and they all have a different approach. But, um, interesting.

That's a great answer, David. I'm just— one last follow-on question from that, because I'm sure every recruitment business owner's probably got the same problem and thinking the same thing. I know you haven't got a formula. Is there one or two things that you've— like, if when you're interviewing a new person coming into your business, is there one or two things you're looking out for that gives you a better chance of success, maybe qualifying or disqualifying, whichever one you think is Is this valuable?

Yeah, I think one big thing is perseverance. And I want to know about some struggles they've had. I want to know how they've persevered through something. I want to know they've been successful at something. Have you had— it could be in something totally different, but you've fought through resilience, right? And you've bruised your knees a few times and gotten back up and gotten going again. I think that's a big one for sure. And so fighting— the evidence of fighting through that grind. For sure. I think it's probably the number one thing.

It's mindset, isn't it, really? It's like if they start with the mindset, everything else is kind of easier from there, isn't it? So I'm guessing you're assessing their mindset the most, David, if they can handle it.

Oh, absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. So we want to get to know them more than anything else. We go through the— comb through the resume. We want to know what, you know, what moves they made and why. We want to know all about them. So for sure, because this— coming into this business, it's you own your own business under the Movement umbrella. I mean, you're an entrepreneur. So it's— that's, that's critical.

Love that.

And Ben, I don't know if you have any more questions, but I'm curious, David, just as a fellow business owner to a fellow business owner, what is your next goal? Like, what's the biggest thing you're aiming for next? For me and Ben, I can say we're developing a new product at the moment that we are so excited to release next year, and it's going to absolutely transform the recruitment industry. But I'm curious, have you got a thing in your brain where you're like, this is what I'm most excited about for the next year, 2 years, 5 years?

That's great. So, I'm going to bore you a little bit because our mission has been so simple and straightforward and it's really hiring great people one at a time. And we don't have some master strategy. It's, we don't, you know, we're here, we are with 6 offices now around the country. We're a brick and mortar. We've got offices in, you know, Michigan, we got Royal Oak, we're down the road about 20 miles down the road, Clarkston. We got an office in the west side of Michigan, Grand Rapids, Carolinas, Florida. They all happened organically with one great hire at a time and someone who's willing to put an office on their back because they were a great builder and they had more in the tank to build something. So it's not— there's no grandiose strategy, but the strategy of one good person at a time who's dedicated themselves to this business, that's kind of what our strategy has been and it's kind of worked. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it's got us where we are today. But we want to continue to do it and we want to continue to take advantage of market opportunities. I mean, our biggest growth year was 2022. And, you know, well, that was a big year for everyone. But post-COVID, we were, we were bullish. I mean, we were out hiring. We were, we were, you know, very confident that things were going to turn eventually. We just— it was a scary time. A lot of our competitors were cutting, cutting back and closing offices, and we were going the opposite direction. We had a big hiring boom that year. Wow. And then saw the results, I think, in '22 where just things were— everything came back. And our headcount was up and stuff like that. So it's really, um, it's— that's the strategy.

So love that, love that.

But I love hearing about new products, so, you know, that's, that's, uh, to me that's kind of cool too.

So thanks, David.

This is kind of a, a, just a, a question that I thought of as well, uh, David. How many sectors do you recruit in at the moment?

Yeah, predominantly, um, it's— I would say automotive has been a big one. I mean, it's kind of our legacy, I would say. We've sort of And once 2008, 2009, the recession hit, we got out of— we were, you know, probably a good chunk, maybe 30%, 40% was automotive, but we're into packaging, paper, aerospace, the food industry, defense, you name it. And that's what's kind of fun about our model is that our great people take us in these different directions, right? So, we have a guy that's doing kitchen cabinets. All he does is kitchen cabinets.

That's his niche.

Right. So it's—

yeah, that's brilliant.

Yeah.

I thought you might say that, David. And my next question was, what are you seeing? Because I'm wondering how other people can learn from what you're seeing in terms of where there's more demand at the moment. Because again, you have quite a good viewpoint seeing all these different sectors and niches. Where is— where is there— have you noticed there's more demand in certain sectors? And if so, where and what? Maybe you can help us understand that.

We've seen a big uptick in auto, like in manufacturing, engineering. And certainly, and you get into the skilled trades and that level, there's just a ton of, it's one of those things that there's such a shortfall of talent and it's a dying industry in some respects. A lot of the legacy talent are retiring or they're, you know, moving on. So there's just tremendous demand. And then with the US manufacturing, you're kind of in a takeoff mode with, we're seeing a lot of rebound there for sure.

So interesting.

And I don't think it's going to slow down anytime soon.

Cool. Really, really interesting. David, thank you so much for joining on, joining us on the pod today, my friend. This has been a great podcast. Really interesting to get to know you. I'm sure there's stuff we've missed out, so we would love to invite you into a round 2 if you're interested in the future.

Of course.

But thank you so much for joining us today, my friend, and just really appreciate your time.

Thanks for having me, guys.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.