"I Billed nothing for 3 years, then did £360K Solo"

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Alicia Birch. Alicia built pretty much zero during her first 3 years of recruitment. Her best year was $20K. Then she changed her environment and everything clicked. She went on to build $240K in her first year at the new company, and then back to back she would consistently build $360K. Then she set up her own business, and in her year she billed $310K solo. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about those 3 years where Alicia billed absolutely nothing, what was stopping her from billing. She's then going to tell us what changed at that new environment that allowed her to bill the numbers that she did. She's going to be talking about her best BD strategies, and we're going to be talking about one of Alicia's greatest weapons, which is saying no to bad fit clients. Guys, this was a light-hearted fun episode. Alicia is absolutely a pleasure to speak to. Her story will be an inspiration for many, many recruiters. We hope you enjoy the episode as much as we did. As usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Wait a second, guys, quick question for you. If you could land a new client on LinkedIn in the next couple weeks, how much would that be worth to you? 20, 30, maybe 40k? Well, we have a pretty crazy offer on right now. If you are a recruitment business owner, then we will work with you for free and write you posts at absolutely no cost. And here's the cool part: other recruiters that have come through this free trial have managed to win new clients. They've racked up hundreds of thousands of impressions and started conversations with top-tier candidates. It's completely risk-free, so you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you're interested, the link's in the description below. If not, no worries. We hope you enjoy the podcast. See you later. Alicia, thank you so much for joining us today. How are you?

Really good, thanks. How are you guys?

Yeah, really, really good, thank you. Um, we tried to get this sorted like about a year ago, I can't remember when it was, but the stars weren't aligned and now we finally have you on and I'm so happy to have you. So thank you for joining us.

I think I was in America at the time when, when I was meant to do it last time, so I was probably having a bit too much fun out there. Yes, enjoying the sun.

Well, we're going to get into a bit of that today, which I'm very excited about, but we'll start off with the first question as always, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit whether it be a mindset strategy or software?

Um, I think for me the number one thing for me is authenticity in your relationships. I am massive on building relationships, making sure they're authentic, making sure they align to me. And I think that I see a lot of people, they're like, oh, you know, I've got to turn it on for work. I never turn it on for work because it never turns off. It's like the— how my clients get me is how my friends get me. And I think that's always served me really well because I've been so vocal about when things don't align, and I don't work with clients that I don't like, and I don't work with companies that don't have the cultures that I would want to represent. So I think being authentic in the relationships that I carry has been my biggest tool in my toolkit. That I've put— there's hundreds, isn't there, really? But that's one of the most important to me.

It's interesting. I don't think we've ever had that response and that's a question which is interesting. And so what, what can you elaborate a little bit? Like, what do you mean by that, and how has that aided you in in the business?

So I think I'd probably be taking it back to when I first started recruitment. I really didn't have a clue about recruitment, didn't know what it was about, and I was showing up as someone that I thought they wanted to see, which never brought me any success because the person I thought they wanted, it wasn't me and it wasn't sustainable. And as soon as I went into a business where I was able to be myself and I was able to build authentic, realistic relationships, those clients have never changed for me and I've still got them now. One thing that clients probably prefer me over other people is the fact that they do get that element of friendship alongside a working relationship. But that comes from me actually genuinely caring and genuinely being interested in what they're doing and knowing about their lives and knowing about their kids. It's not just transactional. It's— there's a level of care that I don't think a lot of other people have. And especially when it is my business as well, it's like it takes it that notch higher of it having to be an authentic relationship. And I think what I found was when I, when I struggled the most with recruitment was when I wasn't being myself and I was forcing something. So for me, authentic relationships is just the bit. I would rather someone thought of me as a good person than they did business with me. Like, you know, I get loads of, loads of experience where people go, I don't know why you're talking to them, they're not hiring. 3 years later, they're my biggest client because I've invested the time and invested the pace to actually build that. But it's come from coffee, dinners out, you know, birthday cards, like things like that that other people probably miss out on. But I know everything about everyone that I work with.

Mm-hmm. I love that. I love that. And what were some of the things, Alicia, you were doing that didn't feel authentic? I'm curious of like during that phase, what were you doing that just didn't feel right, but you thought the clients wanted that, that version of Alicia?

The biggest— I remember having a client meeting once when I started recruitment and I didn't have a fucking clue what I was talking about, but I made every— I convinced— I was like, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. And then I'd sit there in a pool of confusion because I was like, I don't know what they're talking— I don't know what they mean, I don't know what they're doing. But I thought they wanted me to show up knowing exactly what I was talking about, exactly what I was doing. Which, yeah, as I've gone through my career and actually know what these things mean, credibility is great. But as soon as I turn around to someone, went, can you just explain that? I don't actually know what that means. Like it was, and to be fair, like damsel in distress, like, help me. Did me really, really well because people appreciated that I didn't think I knew it all. I didn't think I was the best at everything. And, you know, I remember walking into a client meeting once. I'd kind of, I've done a couple, I've done a few years in recruitment and just never made any money. And I went into a client meeting after going, after going to a new business, and this guy's like, how long have you been in it? And I was like, been in it 3 years. I've never really made any money though, so this is like really a new start. I've technically been doing it 3, but I just made bit of a joke about it, and it was— and they loved it. They were like, oh, that's so funny, like, how did you not make any money? And I was like, it's very, very clear why I didn't make any money. And the thing is, one thing I did make was amazing relationships. And so as soon as I learned recruitment, those relationships just started becoming cash cows, and they were just paying, paying, paying. And that's how I went from technically zero to a really, really good high billing number and consistently high billing number. Love that.

That's amazing. You brought me back, Alicia. I just had this funny thought because I was in recruitment for a short period of time in my, uh, like, this was like 10 years ago, and I remember I was in the finance, um, sector, and I managed to get in into PwC for some— I don't know how the hell I managed to do it, and they invited me into a meeting, and I knew absolutely nothing about anything. And I just remember sitting in the meeting being like, what the fuck are they talking about? What am I doing here?

And the thing is as well though, it's like I had one, it was like these building regulations. Bear in mind, like I did not, I was in recruitment, I don't know building regulations, I'm not on site. This guy said they have to be qualified in this, this and this. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. It's not like genuinely. I literally got back to the office, I was like Googling it and we didn't have obviously have ChatGPT then, so I couldn't be like, hey ChatGPT, like what's this? And I was literally trawling Google having to like educate myself on these things. I met him a year later and I was like, oh, by the way, like when We sat down, we said, what did that mean? And he was like, you still don't know? And I was like, no, I'd love you to tell me.

It is insane how much easier it is to learn a market with ChatGPT now. Like, if you're a recruiter starting off and you've got ChatGPT at your disposal, like, that is so insane. It's like crazy to imagine not working with ChatGPT now.

To be fair, I agree with you, and I totally think, yeah, it's made my life so much easier in so many different aspects. Aspects. However, I have never been in a situation more where people are like, this is AI, and I'm like, no, it's me, hi. Like, you know, people are convinced that people on the phone are AI, and that's where I'm saying that this relates— like, the biggest toolkit in my box, you could say, is authentic relationships, because I know that I can ring someone I've spoken to, said person at this business, and they've recommended me for me to speak to another person. There's my entry. Whereas now businesses are getting hounded and hounded and hounded by people, and a lot of them aren't real people, I'll be honest. And then, you know, you've got email spam outs, and it's just like relationships is what keeps people successful. And if you haven't invested in those relationships, it's very, very hard to become a recruiter these days, I think, and be successful.

Yeah, totally agree. Totally agree with that. Um, I love—

I love—

sorry, go ahead, Alicia. What were you saying?

I love ChatGPT.

I love it as well. Yeah, it's insane how good it is.

Well, guilty being like lazy ChatGPT user. Stop.

Um, I'd love to get on to the second question. Um, and I, I find this super inspiring, and I think other people should as well. Um, so correct if I'm wrong, but you build $20K, roughly $20K, maybe give or take, for, for 3 years.

Yeah.

And then you build $240K and then $360K back to back. Can I just confirm if that's accurate?

Yeah, yeah.

And then, okay, cool.

My first full year in my own business, I billed £310.

Amazing. It's funny because I did a post about this, Alicia, and I got— it like blew up. Like, because I think we had a chat, if you remember, for the previous— yeah, I think I did a post about it and then I got— this blew up. And generally it was really positive, but there were these absolute assholes who were just like, oh, that's not real, that didn't happen.

Yeah. It is going to be people because I mean, the thing is, I lived it and I was on £16,000 a year and I did like £20,000 in a year. Bear in mind the 2 years before then I'd done nothing, right? So £20,000 was my biggest year. Like, that was like me like, oh my God, I've done so well. Well, I had done placements, they dropped out, so I worked. So basically I got into recruitment. I'll give you like the backstory.

Sure.

Got into recruitment, um, after working in restaurants. And I'd worked in like restaurants, I'd worked in like gyms where they'd been like— it's like a posh gym, do you know, where you've got this— yeah, memberships and like orders and stuff like that. So worked in a gym like that, then worked in restaurants, and I did really, really well in restaurants. I was cash tips, like loved it. Um, and then I thought, oh, I need a proper job now because I was working every weekend. I was doing like 8 o'clock in the morning until 3 o'clock in the morning, going back to work the next day. Wow. And ended up getting into a business and found the housebuilding market. Now I'm guilty of sitting on Rightmove every night just looking at houses. I can't fault— I just love the building. I love construction. I love it. Yeah, it's just the best. So I found an industry that I loved. Now, when I joined this business, I was there 6 months. I did not take it seriously at all. I was out every night. I was coming in hungover. I was coming in pissed. Like, it was just one of them where it's like, I was like, oh, I don't really care. And I left that business because they wouldn't allow me to just run with my own desk. I've always been very, very aspirational. I'm like, I want to be in control of all my mistakes and all my achievements. They didn't let me have that freedom to run my desk. So I found a business that did. I mean, unfortunately for them, they hired me. Like, what a waste of money. But in that 3 years that I was with them, I was really, really driven on— I was on meetings every day, so I'd be out on meetings 5 days a week. Now, a build with them, but none of the placements stuck. I didn't actually know how to do recruitment, and I didn't have any training. I had a great manager, like, still love him now, like, he was great. But they— everyone knew me, which was why I think I kept my job with them for so long. Um, yeah, £20,000 was my biggest year, and I remember the names of the two candidates that I placed because that's all it was, two people. And it was It was the best thing I did being at that business because I wasn't gonna— I wasn't getting sacked. I knew everyone. They were like, the penny's gonna drop for her. It didn't. Um, well, not with them anyway. And then, um, and then obviously I went on to go and work at the company that I was most recently at for a long period of time. And to be fair, the one thing that I think was different with them was they had structured training, they had— the environment was different, everyone was high achieving. Like, it was I am such a sponge and I've always been a sponge that I am whenever I'm around other people that are making money or successful, I'm like, I need to be like that. So when I joined that business where I did end up doing the £240,000 my first full year with them, there was just something in the water. And I remember a trainer coming in. I'd never had training before, so I felt like it was like the most suffocating thing in the world. And I ended up having this major breakdown like, you're trying to change me, like you don't like what I'm doing. They were like, no, we're not. Like, we're just trying to help you to be better. And me and this trainer still laugh about it now because he's like, I said, I said I'm going to trademark breakdown to breakthrough because that's what it was. It was like I had a breakdown and all of a sudden the penny dropped and I just— money was just like boom, boom, boom. But it was just a bit of a moment of like, your clients aren't just your mates. You were spending too much time on clients that aren't good enough and actually benefiting you at all. Like people are taking advantage of you. Candidates don't take you seriously. Once I've looked at what I was doing wrong, and I'd realized that I didn't— I just didn't know where to put the candidate and the money and the job together. I just didn't know how to make that work. But I knew everyone, so I had the— the hardest thing was building the market, but I'd done that. So I basically was like, right now I need to learn recruitment properly. That would help.

Yeah, so pretty interesting. And like, was it, uh, was it 3 years at that other company billing 20K each year, did you say?

Sorry, no, no, no, I didn't make any money for the first—

oh, okay, cool. And then third, third year you made zero.

0.20.

Cool, cool, cool. So I'm curious, at that point on the third year, what was going through your head? Because a lot of people at that stage would have, would have possibly just gone and found a completely different industry if it wasn't working out. So what made you then go to the other company and believe that there was another road?

Well, do you know what it was? It was— no, I tell a lie, it was, it was 0.20, and then obviously it was COVID, so I didn't really do that much that year. So the 20 was in between. Now what happened was with this business was the fact that I just wanted more. Like, for me, I always want more. I'm never satisfied, which is the worst and the best thing about me. It's never enough. And I think that what I wanted was to go to a business where other people aligned with my way of thinking. And the business that I was at, yes, it was great, but I just didn't feel like it was pushing me out of a comfort zone. I'd got away with not making really any money for a few years, so I was like, I don't I wasn't really that money motivated. Then I think after COVID, a few things happened, and you'll probably get this speaking to other recruiters, that businesses didn't really know how to adapt to COVID. And so they were asking us to do things that I wasn't really comfortable with, and I was just like, hang on a bit, like, I'm not really here for this. So then I actually got a message from a rec to rec, and he'd messaged me a couple of months before, and I'd been like, no, not interested. And then I went, is that job still available? I like gone back to him and I actually met up with him for a coffee the other day and we were laughing about it. But yeah, it's, it was, I just had this thing in me that was like, I can't see myself being here. And I think as I'd looking around and seeing what other people are putting out there in the market and the industry of like, oh, I've done this placement, I've done that placement, I was like, I've not done any. Like, surely, like, I know, I know I'm good at relationships, I know I'm good at communication. Like, why is it that I can't make this work? So I'd gone to this other business and I'd got the training, I've got the structure, I've got the support, and that was what was missing out of what I needed. And yeah, I think the hardest thing is, and I've seen so many people do it where they're like, oh, I don't need training, but I still have a trainer now and I own a recruitment business that does very well. Like, I still need that support, and sometimes it's sharpening your edges a little bit. No one is ever perfect at anything, and I'm the first person to say that, but I thought I was really good at relationships, but I wasn't good enough where I understood how to monetize those relationships. And that's what I learned I love that.

And if you were to go back now to Alicia in the, in the third year where, where you maybe just hit 20K but there was so much more potential and you had like one biggest needle mover piece of advice to give her in order for her to make more money, what would you tell her?

Oh, that's a real— I love that question. Um, I would probably say your top 3 clients aren't your top 3 clients. Move on.

Okay, interesting.

Move on. Like, I really was— I don't know what— I'm still guilty of it now. I put all my eggs in one basket with people because I am like all or nothing. And I think that the thing that I thought— the clients that were coming back to me the quickest and they were engaging in conversation, that doesn't mean they're a good client. It means you've got a good relationship with them. A good client is someone who actually wants to see you win. Like, when I set the business up, I had like clients that like I thought I had this long list of clients that would like pull me out of the shit. I've set a business up. They've all been encouraging for me to do it. It was like crickets when I set this business up. It was like, okay, so guys, I've done it. And there was probably— I can probably count it on one hand how many clients actually showed up for me in that moment. But they were the people that I wouldn't have even spoken to in that period. So it's like It's crazy because you think, and me when I made that 20 grand, it was purely because I'd kind of just mentioned it in conversation to someone that I had someone. It wasn't like I was working on a job and this is, this is a candidate and I've submitted the CVs and there was a process. I just said, oh, I've spoke to this person. Oh yeah, I've heard he's really good. Yeah, he is. Well, do you think he'd be interested in a chat? That wasn't even really, it was like just that sort of recruitment. So I think I would have probably said to me, move on to other people. Like, if you're not making money out of these people and these people aren't investing in you, move on.

So to summarize that, it sounds like you were just spending all your time on the wrong clients. That was the biggest problem. And if you spent time on the right clients, the— that sounds like that was the biggest needle mover.

Yeah, 100%. And even like, even clients that like, I, I don't want to work with them, they're my biggest client now.

That's so funny. Yeah, I wish I'd—

do you know what I wish I'd done? I wish I hadn't waited 3 years to make move. I wish I'd moved sooner. That would have been another thing that I'd have said to myself about— just go and get a new job, like, somewhere you'll, you'll flourish in the right environment. But I'm not a quitter. I hate giving up on things. And I think that I was— I believed as much as they believed that the penny was going to drop there. Then I moved and it dropped, and then someone else got the wealth of my experience.

It is amazing what can happen if you change environments and you just, like, literally go from one place to another with some structured training. Like, it's just incredible what— where your journey was and where it is now. It's just insane.

I agree that your environment— I mean, we, we're in a bit of a transition period at the moment with the business. We're making some changes and we're moving offices because I was like, there's a new chapter coming, we need to shake things up, move the environment, change the, change the vibe. And, and I think that even running your own business, you've still got to carry— even though I can't go and move jobs And trust me, there's been times last year that I was like, right, who wants to hire me? And it has, it has been tough, but it's— I'm in the same thing of my environment needs to change. And, you know, I go to America for a few months if I feel uninspired, and, and there's ways that you can still change your environment by not physically moving jobs. But I wish I'd changed my environment sooner because going, being around people that were making money, oh my God, it's just the bit— going around people that are better than you will always make you better.

Yeah, yes, 100%, totally agree with that. Really interesting. Yeah, I miss that. Um, I feel like I miss— because I've been, um, I think that's— I'm not sure if you miss that now, Alicia, but when you're self-employed, you don't get that same opportunity to be surrounded by like top performers all the time, like physically, which is interesting.

I saw a girl recently who ran her own business and she's gone back to work to agency, and I actually really respect it because there is nothing harder than having a bad day in recruitment and staring at the screen and just being like Well, that was shit. And then before you know it, that bad day turns into a bad week, that bad week turns into a bad month, and you end up getting yourself in this whole bear of mine. I've been in it quite a lot of last year in a bit of a period of like, didn't want to get out of bed. No one was telling me to get out of bed. Didn't really want to ring any clients. No one was telling me to ring any clients. You know, you have these periods, but I've invested really heavily in a business coach and he's like a non-exec for me now. He has been the biggest game changer. Like, he is just— he's like my boss, which I need. I'm not very good at being on my own. Like, I don't have any discipline, really. But I don't want to go—

it's interesting that you're just honest about it and you spotted it, and so you can— you fixed it by hiring someone or working with someone.

I'm not good at anything. Oh, I'm not good at anything. I'm not good at everything. So if I can pay someone to do it, yeah, I will. Like, you know, I'm That's social media. I'm terrible at it, you know. I've spoken to you guys about this before, but because I look at the stuff that you do and, and it's great, and I don't have that same level of like creativity, which I think—

I love your content actually, Elisha. I think you're quite hard on yourself. I think it's really good.

This is the thing, I'm like, post stuff that I want, and then I'm like, what does everyone else actually want to see? And then I'm like, that doesn't really matter. But I've started posting on my business page now because I did hire someone to do the business content. That's not really worked out, but I know that I need to pay someone to do that, and they aren't my strong points. So me having a business coach and having a therapist and having a PT, like, I have all these people around me because I'm shit at doing it myself. You need it. And you, if you identify that you can't do something, there is someone out there that can do it better than you. So you're better off just paying someone to do it and saving yourself all the time, and then behind the scenes learning how to do those things yourself in the— and take time. But if you want quick results, someone else that can do it in a week rather than the 6 months that it's going to take me.

Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like— I'm not sure if you agree with this, Lisa, and I'm not digging UK, uh, recruiters, but I'm just— it's more of an observation. I feel like US recruiters are much more open to that investment, kind of like if I put this amount of money in, I could potentially get tenfold out. Whereas I feel like UK recruiters are quite— they're not quite the same with investment for some reason. I've noticed it's not— this is not across the board. We still work with a lot of UK people, but I'm not sure if you've noticed that. Maybe that's just my motivation.

I think that, like, I've noticed that definitely. I mean, for me, so I've had therapists before in the past, and you know, this job, you are pouring from an empty cup, being totally honest. You know, if you have a bad day, a candidate rings you, they're not exactly on the phone to give you a therapy session. So you have to be like, oh my God, hi, like, how is everything? You gotta be excited about it. There's some days where I wake up, I'm like, I don't even want to answer the phone. The thing is, for me, I've invested massively in a therapist to regulate some feelings that I have about the job and my personal life and stuff like that. But I tell people I've got therapists in the UK and they're like, what? Yeah, but then I— but then when you're in America, everyone's got therapists.

Yeah, everyone's got one.

Even therapists. Just, I just want to speak to my therapist about this. And it's like, you know, we spend— me and my partner spend— he spends a lot more time there, but I spend a few months a year there. And it's so normalized to invest in yourself and really, and it's personal and professionally, but then I'm a bit of a— I'm not really a risk taker at all. Like, I hate, I hate risk. And then since having the business, like, I've become a little bit more of a risk taker because I've had to. But I remember when I, I made my first couple of hires, I had like £6,000 in the bank and I thought, yeah, okay, I'll make it work. And I managed to make it work for the time that they were in the business. But having them coming in motivated me to make more money. But I thought I know that it's going to come back at some point. And then a few months later, I did like 78 grand in a month, and I was like— and that was just myself— and I was like, oh my God, like, me investing in these people around me to push me forward has paid off in that individual, you know, it pays off in tenfold. Yeah, I agree with you that the UK is so much more hesitant, and they're a lot more like, oh, I don't know, am I going to get it back? Whereas I'm like, you know what, if it doesn't work out, I'll pivot and do something else.

Yeah, yeah, really interesting. Um, I'd love to go into your roundtable events, because I just found that really fascinating and it's quite a different way of BD. Um, can you talk us through, for people that have no idea how to do these roundtable events, what are they, how are you doing them? Maybe we could, uh, learn.

Yeah, yeah, they're so good, they're such a buzz. So basically, the roundtable events are, um, getting together leaders in the sector that I work in. So I specialize in residential new build housing And it's basically getting all the MDs of businesses that we work with, don't work with together for a round. It's called Round the Table, like my little play on words that I made up. And they basically just get together and everyone submits a question anonymously. We sit down, have some dinner. I pay for everything. They don't have to put up the hand in the pocket for anything. Food and drinks on me. And we ask the questions as like a table talking point, really, of like what, um, so I ask the question, I say, right, someone asked this, and then we go around and everyone answers their thing. Now it's been great for me for BD because off the back of my last roundtable I got loads of business, but it was also a great opening for things. So I had loads of people confirmed, so I filled it in a week. But I also use it as BD for people I've never spoke to before. I'm doing this roundtable event, this is who's coming, I'd love you to come as like a guest, and this, this, and this. And then If they say, oh, I'm not free on that day, I'm like, look, let's just get something in the diary just so we can get acquainted and I'll make sure I invite you to the next one. Get those meetings in. And it is basically just a way to get everyone together. But I find out so much stuff in those and it is a bit of a private, like no one talks about what happens there afterwards. Like it's just a very safe space. Everyone can get as drunk as they want, say what they want. No HR. We're all having a good time. Wine's flowing and they are really, really good. But it's an opportunity for people to just be a little bit more honest about how their business is doing without it being in an environment like an awards ceremony or where you've got to pretend like everything's great. Like, we had a couple of people that's going, well, this year's been shit. Yeah, everyone else was like, yeah, yeah, me too, me too. But then on LinkedIn you look and they go, best year, yeah. And it's like, come on, like, professional authenticity. But yeah, it's It's been really, really good for me because straight after that first one that I ever did, because when I set the business up, that was one of the key things I was like, I need to get a roundtable. And like, I love getting my clients together. After that first roundtable we did, I think we got a retainer which was £15,000. The total fees were worth £60,000, and then we did £120,000 in our first full year with one client that came to that roundtable that we'd never— that I'd never billed with before. Wow.

Interesting.

Wild if you think about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an ROI.

Big amount of money, that.

Yes, it's epic. And, and what I'd love, because these guys are business owners, they're incredibly busy, uh, how do you get them in a room? Like, what are you— what's the hook? I'm sure the free drink and wine help, but is there anything else you're doing to get them into the room? Because it's a mixture— correct me if I'm wrong, Alicia— it's a mixture between current clients and other people that you're not necessarily—

yeah, it's so— it's— I try and do a 50/50 split. Yeah. Um, sometimes it's 80/20, like what is it, doesn't really matter what the split is because the first one I did I leaned on people I knew and that were there for me and that then allowed me to then have conversations with people saying, oh, this person's coming, like I think you know them, oh yeah, that sounds really good. So yes, they are busy, but there it's also a very, very good way of introducing people that haven't met each other before. Like the one that we're doing, we had one that was meant to be this week but I've had to move it because half of them have got that plague that's been flying around. So we've moved it to next month. But one of the MDs that's coming to that is, is new to the region. So he— I said, look, it could be a great opportunity for you to meet some other MDs that you don't know, and you are new to the region, and it's a great introduction. He was like, yeah, that's a great idea. And I just think it's an opportunity for people to get together to— it's not a bragging contest, like it's more of a like therapy session for everyone rather than like, and everyone parading around saying how great the businesses are. But the hook that I do is that, you know, it's an exclusive event, it's a private dining thing, it's intimate, it's small, there's only 12 people coming. Like, it's— there's something about that intimacy. But a lot of them, they'll know each other. So if I say, oh, this person's coming, they go, oh yeah, I want to come then. And also they know that I love a drink.

I love a drink.

It's a great time.

It's like that exclusivity, VIP intimacy, name dropping. So it's kind of like, yeah, the, the the— I can see why people will want to come. Um, plus I guess these guys are like in super high stress environments, and it's like, it would be nice to do something different and actually just let the hair down.

I think it is, it is different, but it's also— I mean, everyone that came to the last one was like, that was amazing, right? Because everyone got on dead well, you know. I sat people that knew each other next to people that didn't know each other, and there was so much thought that went into it. But it was also— I mean, it was funny because everyone was chatting, and you kind of say like, look, let's keep one conversation going so everyone can be involved, and You know, me being the gobby person, I'm like, shut up, shut up. But it's like, you know, I'm 27, like, these are all 45, 50-year-old men who are listening to me talking about the industry, and then they ask me questions about recruitment, and they ask me questions about recruitment trends. But being credible and knowing your shit is what gets these people to the table, because I have spent years building these relationships. I've never done a roundtable before, and they trusted the fact that this would be a good event because I'm throwing it. So it was— a lot was riding on the fact that it had to be good. But it was a great, great, great day. I love stuff like that. But it's also a nice environment for me because I have— I invite 12 people, that's 12 hours of my life I'll get back because I'm not sitting with those people individually. Yeah, I'm sitting on everyone together and everyone's having a nice time. And it takes you out of that recruiter part that people get themselves stuck in. Because if you're just a recruiter, you're— you ring someone they're going to go, oh, can't bother with that recruitment. Whereas they don't know what they're going to get with me because I do so many different things. I could be— I'm keeping everyone on their toes.

And do you— is the— so I know you won the 120K worth of business. Did that just happen organically? Did you have like a follow-up process after? I can't remember if you had like a trigger.

After I spoke to you about it, I realized it was £137,000 was the full amount.

But the—

I mean, the hard thing was this was a client that we'd been like tickling with a little bit. Like I wanted to get in with them, saw they were growing, had a few bits here and there with them, but nothing confirmed. And then a client that came to the Roundtable event joined their business as an MD, and it was someone that I trusted a lot. And he's a really, really good client of mine now, but we hadn't worked together before. When it came to the roundtable event, we discussed a couple of things in terms of leadership changes. Like, we discussed these on the phone a couple of times. He was, I'm thinking about it. And I was like, look, let me send you the proposal. We'll put a plan together. After that roundtable event, he signed off the proposal. So that roundtable event was like the nail in the coffin for that, really, because he was like, I had such a great time. Thank you so much. Like, I've sent that to HR. We're going to get it signed off. And then eventually after that, I placed two directors within their team underneath them, placed senior people, and then underneath them placed all their team. So it was really, it was like I'd put the right people in there to then get everything else underneath. I'd got myself in the right conversations with HR directors from the credibility that this MD had given me. So then I placed their head of HR. So it was more of a case that that roundtable event was, it changed a perception for me in someone else where they went, she knows what she's doing. And that's when I then got all this business and all these things.

Interesting.

Like, yeah, really, really grateful because it wouldn't have been if it wasn't for him. I wouldn't have got it. But then at the same time, it was just what I needed. It was like a confidence boost having set the business up and been my first, like, year where I'd started. I think it was May I'd started the business. It was shit, I'm not gonna lie. I was like, oh, I couldn't— felt like I couldn't do recruitment anymore. Then I'd met this client, done all these things, and I was like, yeah, I've still got it. And then, then it was like, right, that on steroids. And then I was just— you couldn't stop me last year. I like there and everywhere. But the difference was I worked with less clients last year, but just better clients.

Yeah, wow, that's interesting. I was going to ask something, but it's literally just gone from my head. So annoying.

You'll get it like 3 o'clock in the morning.

Um, I'd love to go to how you're using the phone at the moment, Alicia. I know you're still a big lover of the phone. Correct if I'm wrong. And you call it non-invasive recruitment. Um, so can you maybe explain how are you using the phone at the moment? What, in terms of the context that it comes into your BD and/or relationship building, how does it work?

So for me, WhatsApp's massive. Like, I do everything on WhatsApp. Like, oh, interesting. I, I know when, when I first started in recruiting, I'll pick the phone up, you've got to do 5 hours on the phone. I'm like, oh no, I I used to do 5 hours on the phone, but it was more to prove a point to someone. Whereas having now, since having the business, like, 2 years, like, having the business nearly 2 years, everything for me is on WhatsApp. If I'm, you know, and I don't have working hours, I'll work any hours you need me to, you know. I'll work Saturdays and I bring people on a Saturday. I'm really not bothered. But I think I set that boundary with people straight away that, like, I am available to you whenever you need me. I kind of expect that back a little bit. And if someone doesn't so I'm not going to be like hounding them. But my non-invasive recruitment is just the case of that it's just very warm all the time. I never put myself in a position where I'm like cold calling someone because honestly, I absolutely hate it. Obviously, I'm growing the American market and I will have to cold call some people, but trust me, I'll find a way to make it warm somehow. And it's just, it's just a way because I know like there's recruiters that go, hi, it's this person, like I'm calling from this company. I never tell anyone where I'm calling from. I'm just like, hi, it's Alicia. We spoke on LinkedIn, I spoke to this person that told me to ring you, I've done this, I've done that. I'll let— I'll— I don't like the riding on the business thing because I think for me I've ridden on relationships. And I will always ask my clients, who do you know? I'll always ask for references off people. So I'm not going in there being like, oh, another recruiter. I don't like cold calling. I hate the fact that people do it to me and I'm like, oh, go away. Like, and I've got respect for it because because I've done it and I've been there. But now it's like I get clients that text me saying, I've got this job, can you do it? Have you got anyone for it? I'm like, yeah, no. Like this morning I woke up and I had a client message me like, oh, I need 5 candidates for these positions. I was like, yeah, fine. And I don't need to qualify them because I know what they do and I know what the salaries are and I know the businesses well enough to do it.

Yeah.

But it just feels a lot lighter for me, and I prefer it, if I'm honest.

So Oh, oh, go ahead, Sam. Um, when you say you use WhatsApp, is it once you've established like a basic relationship you move them on to WhatsApp, or you just like instantly? You can't—

straight onto WhatsApp.

Oh really? Interesting.

Someone's number, I will go straight onto WhatsApp and I'll either voice note them, I will text saying, oh, like, I've been speaking to this person, like, can I have a chat with you? And they'll be like, yeah.

Cool.

And now as well, because obviously I've got quite a big personal brand, people do know me. I've been in it, I've been doing the same market in the same area for 9 years. Like, they have to have known me by now. Um, it's a lot easier because people already know me and know what I'm about. So I don't have to do the whole, hi, it's Alicia from Fortify, I run a recruitment business. I don't have to do that. I'm just like, hi, it's Alicia, like, I was speaking to this person, are you free? And they'll be like, yeah, yeah, ring me at this time. Cool.

Okay, so Brand new client, never spoken before technically, WhatsApp number, audio note, but you're doing some kind of warm introduction like, hey, I spoke to Paul, Paul mentioned this, just thought I'd get in touch because of XYZ, maybe something like that.

Yeah. And even if they ignore me, I will ring them, but I'll be like, oh, I left you a voice note and I know you read it. I know you heard me.

Don't lie to me. I do cold calls, but they're not cold.

I've already done something. And the thing for me, I think you've got to touch people a few times before you get any engagement off them. And it's like I'm very— I'm like such a detective. I will ring someone that I know for someone's number to then get that. I'm like, I'll find any loophole of a person and be like, right, I know that I can get to them and I know I can get the details and I know I'll speak to them. But once I've got my eyes on you, I will not stop. I'm like relentless, but I'll do it in a way where you won't realize I've been doing this for 2 weeks. You'll just get me and I'll be like, oh my God, hi, like as if it's like a random— I randomly came across. No, this has been an MI6 mission to get you. I love it.

Um, and I'm curious, is— because did the WhatsApp method work as well, as equally well in the US? I'm wondering.

Uh, to be fair, I did a lot more— what I would do on WhatsApp, I did on LinkedIn. I've not really tried the WhatsApp method for America. Now that's just me being really honest because I haven't— I, I've obviously touched into America. I've got all my markets mapped out. God, I need to learn how to speak. Got all my markets mapped out, but I did a lot of that voice note thing on LinkedIn for the American stuff, and every single one was like, oh my God, no one's ever sent me a voice note before.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, we still get that quite a lot with voice notes. It's, uh, yeah, yeah, awesome. I mean, you can just, you can just, you can just portray so much more emotion and passion and like expertise. And yeah, it's crazy that more people aren't doing them.

It's that they are busy people, as we are. They are so much more transactional than UK. They do not give two shits what I do on the weekend. So it's not like, oh my God, hi, how are you? I'm like, hi, this is what I've come across, your details. This is what I do, this is who I am. It's very, very direct, which for me is different because I'm having to adapt my whole style to work around them. But My main thing in America is like candidates love me. Like, I got— I've got great relationships with some candidates. I've not done America for nearly 2 years now, and I still speak to them. I still speak to some of the American project managers because they are so funny. But they love— they love the fact that I'm not transactional. They're like, oh my God, I love the fact that you're asking how, you know, it's my birthday and I message you happy birthday. I care. So they're like shocked to the core. So I've still got that little bit of involvement, but they're like, oh yeah, I'll introduce you to this person, I'll do this, I'll do that. And The candidates are really what's going to grow my business when I pull the trigger on America again. But the directors and presidents and stuff like that, they're like, I'm like, hi. They're like, oh yeah, I've never had a voice note before. And then I'm like, oh, well, would you be free for a chat? And it's like, radio silence. I will get you.

Oh, my question, my question came back. It just, it literally just came back now. I was going to ask regarding the roundtables, kind of going back there, how many are you planning to do every year or every month, Alicia? And is this going to become a common tactic?

Yeah, yeah. So we did one a year, we've done one a year up to now. We're gonna probably do two a year in terms of like one at one point in the year, one towards the back end of the year, and then eventually I want to do it quarterly. But I want to involve— I want one to be like land-focused, um, construction-focused, commercial-focused, and go through the different disciplines and do them. Because I can't tell you how different the conversation is. It's bizarre. It's like nothing to do with— it's nothing to do with recruitment, but they love that, the fact that they're going to something that a recruitment person's putting on that isn't talking about recruitment. Because anyone else be like perfect breeding ground for sales. And it's like, no, it's a trusted circle.

We don't talk about sales.

We just get them out. We just hound them afterwards like, I paid for your dinner.

Um, cool. I've got, um, I'm debating whether to do question 5 or 6. Um, either the Excel spreadsheet about market mapping or the 90-minute sprints. Which one would you prefer, Alicia?

Um, to be fair, I think I can probably merge them into one, to be honest.

Awesome. Okay, cool.

Two birds, one stone. So I obviously map my markets out using Excel. Now the way I do it is so simple, and it actually does tie into these 90-minute sprints because I will use that spreadsheet to pick a discipline and ring through all those people on a certain day. Circulating those people. So the way I've done it is like, so you've got companies on one side and then you've got the, um, titles across the top, sorry, up to chief exec level. Um, so I work across commercial, technical, ops, sales, land, and exec across house building in the Northwest. So you've got like 6 disciplines there that you get people from. As soon as I've got one person on that spreadsheet from that business, I will ring that person and I will map the rest of the company out based off that phone call. So I use clients to map the markets out for me, and then I pick one person in that business to get really, really, really pally with, and then they start giving me leads, you know, information about other people, people moving. Like, I speak to those people really regularly, and they do become your friends eventually. Like, I've got— when I get married, I'll probably invite some clients to my wedding. Like, I love them, that, you know, the people I've worked with for years now. But for me, with the market mapping, when we built America, it was a case of finding all the businesses. And the hard thing is it's finding the companies. But your companies come from your candidates, because if you go on any candidate who works at a business that you want to work with, look at their CV, they probably worked at some other places that you want to work with as well. So it's a little bit messy to begin with. So I love building a new market, and I wish— a part of me really does wish that, like, I had a role in the business where it was like I built markets, passed them on, build markets, pass them on, but I'm too emotionally invested now, so it's like I can't do that. But yeah, it's basically you just list all your companies, try and find someone in that business, or get someone to introduce you to someone in the business, grow the relationship and get them to map that market out for you.

I love that. Really interesting. Can we dig a little bit deeper? So, um, does the person that you're building the relationship Does it completely vary, or are you trying to get hold of one particular person, like a certain seniority level?

To be fair, I mean, I think because we'd covered this, didn't we, of like, I know I used to go from bottom to top. So I'd speak to candidates, they'd introduce me to their managers, then they'd introduce me to their managers, and then I shifted from top to bottom. So I'd go in straight at the top and then be like passed down by other people. Now, even if someone, even if I rang a chief exec and they told me to fuck off, I've spoke to them, they've said a word to me on the phone, so I'll ring someone in their team and go, I was actually speaking to John the other day, like 'Oh, they don't know that. They're not going to go to Johnny and go, is this girl?' He's going to be like, 'Oh yeah, you know, I did speak to her,' but like, he can say whatever he wants. I don't know, that wouldn't really happen and never has happened. Uh, so yeah, so that's how I normally do it, is I sort of work my way down with clients now, because at the end of the day, I spent 3 years not making any money for a reason. It was because I was invested in candidates and I was invested in those relationships, but I wasn't progressing them any higher. Whereas now I go in straight at the top and work my way down because I'll eventually get down to the candidates. But obviously my main thing, my main thing is I want to make some money. Yeah, the hiring managers. And before you know it, if you do it from the bottom up, you spend 6 months like not speaking to a hiring manager. It's about building the trust. And I mean, don't get wrong, I do get rejected now and again. Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not the BD machine where everyone says yes to me, but it happens a lot less than it used to.

Yeah. Can we imagine— sorry, Ben, I just want this one question— can we imagine that you have called, um, you know, the right client or the right prospect at the top? What are the key things that you would like to extract in terms of information that you can deem a successful call, Alicia?

So I would probably say for me, like, when you're speaking to the people at the higher level, they're not asked about the nitty-gritty. They don't care. They're senior people. They've got busy lives. Like, they just want to really understand what you can do for them. So whenever I'm speaking to a high-level chief exec or MD or someone like that, I'll talk about salary surveys, business consultancy, I'll talk about reputational stuff. I'll never talk about recruitment. Once I've had a bit of a convo with them about, you know, where's the business going, like what exciting things have you got, all I want to know is what things— I'll start with 3 things, let's do that then. What they've got going on, what they had, what their biggest challenge was last year and what they've got coming up this year. Um, never talk about recruitment. You're not a recruiter. I never introduced myself as a recruiter as well.

Never.

I don't ever tell anyone I'm a recruiter because I do so much. I'm like, I don't ever want to put myself in that box, but also it puts people off straight away.

Yeah, yeah.

Why am I talking to you? Why? I don't need to, especially at that director level as well. Also, I do sometimes talk about non-exec opportunities with those because it's a non— that's a not a conflict of interest for them. You know, if I'm in the right— you know, I work with a lot of chief execs. Like, if there's an opportunity for a non-exec role, like, would you be interested? Yeah, yeah, of course. Automatically that client becomes a candidate. And having the balance of those relationships will ensure that you can have more open conversations with them. Yes.

Yeah, that makes sense. I've never— I've never heard of the non-exec approach actually for senior, senior people. That's quite interesting.

It's great as well because, I mean, the thing is, being totally honest with you guys, like, I probably have like one non-exec opportunity come across my desk ever. But I also have built some of the most successful relationships with people because they have been treated— I never treat clients and candidates differently, everyone gets treated the same. But I think the thing is, I never used to speak to MDs because I was too scared, because I thought they were better than me, and I put them on this pedestal, and I was like, oh God, I could never. But now they are my biggest sort of like— I speak to one a day. I don't have that fear anymore, but I do think that's a change in my personal mindset, not necessarily the business or anything like that. It's a change of like, we all go home, put our pyjamas on and go to bed. Do you know what I mean?

That's a good way of saying it, I like that.

Yeah, like it's just like, you know, they're no different to you and that was the biggest thing that changed for me when I joined my old business and I started, you know, I built £2.4 million in my first year was, they're no different. Like I put these clients on a pedestal and I was like, oh my God, MDs are amazing and chief execs, I'd never speak to them. And now they're like, I, you know, I get phone calls off them all the time. It's like, oh, how are you? Like, how's it been? How's your week been? And, you know, got one that rings me like 6 o'clock in the morning to get me out of bed for some reason.

Like, get up. And so just to go back to the— there was 3 things. I'm not sure if maybe I didn't hear all of them, but it was what's your biggest challenge last year?

Yeah, what's your biggest challenge last year? Not exec opportunities.

Yeah.

And, um, what was the third one?

Uh, it was never speak about recruitment. I think that was one of them.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. Okay, interesting. Have you ever had someone like ask you what do you do and then you just avoid it? Like, how, how do you dodge that question?

To be fair, I— it's a bit of a cheat really, because I'm— because the calls are warm or the conversations are warm, I don't really have to explain what I do. I work with I'm like, I work with them doing, you know, I've helped build— I word it in a way that is recruitment, but I'm like, oh, I've helped Paul build his team and we've invested really heavily in terms of salary surveys. You know, I keep them in the loop with salaries and— Yeah.

So it's more like a consultant kind of framing as opposed to like—

Yeah, we've done a reputational analysis, which was great for their business. So I've got a meeting in a few weeks with a client where I'm not doing— I don't work with them. I'm not on a PSL with them, but they want salary surveys and reputational analysis for both their new regions.

I charge for that.

Like, that's— it's a— I mean, I charge a lot for it, but it's worth it because that sort of information internally as a business, you don't have time to do that. I do, because it's— I'm speaking to candidates I'm going to place in jobs, and all I have to do is ask them, what do you think of this business? Yeah, you can upsell everything, but you can also really broaden your offering if you actually use it in the right way.

I think— I didn't know you did that. I think that's an awesome offering. I think if more recruiters could have these valuable lower ticket, um, I mean, maybe you're charging equal, I'm, I'm the same amount, but I just feel like they're really good valuable offerings that, that kind of get you in, in bed with people, or not in bed, get the conversation started at least.

Yeah, so you said that one of my clients says, you really get in bed with people, and I was like As soon as I said that out loud, I was like, no, wrong thing. I do enjoy stuff like that as well though, because I think that if someone rang, if I had a business, doesn't matter what it is, and I wanted to know what people were saying about it without me having to do the work, I would pay someone to ring around, ask what they— it's like, ring around, oh, do you know Alicia? What do you think of her? She's all right. Yeah, yeah. Have you heard anything negative about her? It's just gossip that I'm charging for basically, but it is so good when a business is opening a new region or they've absorbed a bit. So mergers, if you've merged into a business, some companies that have taken over that business will onboard me to basically say, can you find out what the reputation was in that region for this other business to see what we need to work on when we go in there?

Interesting.

Which is great. And I think that it shows a lot about a business and the culture when they want to know that information. Yeah.

And because I've never heard the reputational one before, Alicia, what What are some of the things that you hear that would then change what the company does, if you know what I mean? Like in terms of reputation.

So we would ask, it literally is that simple. It's like, have you heard of this business? Yeah, yeah, I've heard of them. What have you heard about them? Well, I've heard the technical director is not very good when it comes to the staff. You know, they've got high turnover, people leaving. He's not very nice to them or she's not very nice to them. We've heard that, or someone that's worked in the business before. Why did you leave? Oh, well, this person was bullying me. We find, we find out so much stuff. We then provide it to the company. They go, we had no idea about this because it's been hidden. So the reason why a lot of people want to do it is just to understand what the perception. And to be fair, it's when a business has been through a period of change, 6 months later, they're like, we want to know what people are saying about us now. Now we've made the changes. Now the dust has settled, but has it changed? So I've got one that I do every year. So I've got a client that every year they'll be like, can you do it? Because they want to know how the business is changing and how the reputation's changing. But we also work with them as a client for the recruitment side. Yeah. But then we put it into a big document. So we ask lower level staff that would be employed by them as well as high level staff like MDs and stuff like that, what their thoughts are, because their opinions are so different. And also, I mean, people leave businesses for a reason. They're always going to have— not always going to have good things to say. So you've got to take stuff like that with a pinch of salt, but you've got to give it enough. You've got to speak to enough people to give it credibility that there's a trend. And we will then pull that information together, extract that information, and give them some averages of what people think. And it's such a simple conversation, but it's so effective. I love doing them because it's interesting because I will then be like, right, well, I'll decide whether I want to work with the business after that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Super valuable information, actually. I love that. It's a really great exercise. Have you ever stopped working with a client after reputational? Yeah. Wow, that's insane.

Um, it was about 3 years ago. I was doing a retain project for them, and I did the reputational analysis, and I pulled out the retainer, gave them the money back, and didn't work.

Wow. So it was that bad? You were like, oh my God, I can't work with them?

The thing with me is that, like, it's— money is, money is important to me, but I would much rather save by— if I know something's not going to work and I know someone's not going to stay, I'll pull them out myself. I'm just like, and I'm never going to force something and force something to happen for the sake of money. Last year we walked away. We've turned down more work than we filled. Wow. But that's with different clients, that's with on different roles. If I can't give you the best service, I'm probably not going to do it. That's me being totally honest. But I am very, very careful about where I attach my name to because I— it's not only them now, it's me as well. I work myself, and if I'm known for putting people in businesses and they don't stay, it's like, well, she's not very good at what she does, is she? Like, I'm so protective of myself now, and I'm building a team, and I've got, you know, I've got these things going on that I don't really want to associate myself with businesses that are known for— like, I had a situation the other day, a candidate that I placed in a job rang me and said that there was a few issues in the business, and I've rang the director and I've been like, that is absolutely unacceptable. Unacceptable. Like, I'm really disappointed. And he was like, oh, I didn't know that it was happening. I was like, we'll get to know. Like, that's what I'm here for, and I will stand up for people that are in situations that I don't agree with because that's not the type of business that I'm selling. Like, I'm working with you and working with your business because I believe in it. And if someone goes into that company and doesn't have the experience that I've sold, I look like an idiot. So I don't put up with, like, anyone treating people badly or, like, businesses I don't want to work with or cultures not being right. And if, if I find that a business isn't like that they've sold it to me, I have got no qualms about taking that person out of that business and finding them something better because everyone deserves to be happy at work. Like, that's why I do the job. I love it. I love people ringing me and going, oh my God, this is the best thing you've ever done putting me here. Like, love it. But if someone's not having that experience, I feel responsible, and it is my responsibility because they're my people that I'm representing.

Yeah, I love that. I can tell that. Yeah, that's really, it's really cool. Alicia, I can tell you love what you do and you care about what you do, which is refreshing because a lot of recruiters don't speak about that side. Funny enough, they speak about the billings and the money, but not the caring.

If I'm honest, like, I've had 3 years without making any money. I mean, I think it's though, for me, it's like I, I don't— I would rather make less money and do things.

Yeah.

Then, and you know, in turn, I do make loads of money because I do things right, but I've got no problem saying no to things. I've got no problem away. I've got no problem losing out, giving fees back, stuff like— if it just does not align, if it doesn't feel right to me, I don't really— don't care. It's got to feel right for everyone involved.

Yeah, love it. I can't believe the hour has already come up, Alicia. Is there anything else that we haven't spoken about that you would like to share on the pod, or do you think we've covered every, every nook and cranny?

I think we've covered it. I mean, is there anything else that you guys want to— is there anything else that you guys wanted to speak about? Or—

good reversal, I like it. Very good. I haven't got any questions. Ben, is there any final questions you have? Um, I don't— I think I'm going to finish off with, let's imagine we can do this together as a team. Let's imagine someone's listening to this podcast and they're like, they want to squeeze as much value out of your head as possible, Alicia. Um, maybe we can go back to like some of the difficult periods. Maybe it's starting your business, maybe it's back to when you were working at the company. Maybe just a really important lesson, like the working with better clients. If there was one more golden nugget you could leave from some of the toughest lessons you've had, what kind of golden nugget could we leave with the audience, do you think?

Um, I think one thing I would probably say, because it's probably more applicable because I've recently set a business up— so, well, not recently, but like, you know, I'm still in the early stages of it— is build a business for you, not the business that you think people want to see. Because I was very, very quick to hire, thought, oh my God, it's gonna look great on paper, like people joining the business and working for me. I wasn't personally ready for that, like, and I acted in a way that probably I'm not not proud of, but I wasn't ready for people to join me and to come on this journey with me. And in turn, they didn't have very great experiences working for the business. And I think that as much as you, you want to have these things because you think it looks great on paper and you think people are going to be more impressed and your business looks more credible. I have done more being on my own than I would have done with a team. And, you know, and now I am ready to hire and I'm ready to grow. And that's the journey that I'm on at the moment. But I think the thing is, do things for yourself. And exact same thing as we've been talking about throughout this podcast, like doing things that align with you rather than how it looks to other people and working with clients that love you and you love instead of working with the clients that look the busiest. Like I've got clients in my market that make— people are making £100,000, £150,000 with a year. I refuse to work with them because I don't like them as a business. And that's a choice that I make, but I feel good about that because I know the companies that I do work with value me and appreciate me. And another thing I would say, don't lower your— everyone needs to stop lowering the prices. Everyone needs to stop knocking percentages off. Like, have your fee, have your structure, hold your value, work with people that appreciate you. Don't do things for other people and stop like doing it for the look. Do it for yourself. Like, I work less hours with less clients, but I do more money.

Yeah, that's it. I love it. Great way to end. I feel like being picky with clients as well is such a key— I mean, I guess it's just like a lot of recruiters don't have the luxury. I think it's like, it's like a kind of chicken and the egg scenario because it's like you want to be picky with clients, but then they also don't have any very, you know, they're not doing BD or they don't have any marketing strategies or systems. So it's kind of like, I feel like you need to be, you need to be more proactive and get really good systems in place so that you can afford to be pickier with clients, if you know what I mean.

Now, one thing I would say though, because I mean, I've worked in these businesses before where you go in there like, right, here's a list, smash the phones. If you don't love what you do and love who you're speaking to and you've not got a market that you align with, like no matter how many people you ring, you're going to fucking hate coming to work every day. You're not going to enjoy it. So I think the one thing that I would probably say to people is like being picky with your market, your clients, like we were just saying then, like having that standard of yourself and other people they have to live up to as well. Because it's not just all about you, like If people— you might have a standard for yourself, but if people don't have that respect for you, then you're never going to get anywhere with it. But I think that really loving what you do and really caring about what you do and who you're engaging with and caring about how you're perceived in the market, you know, like reputation, you want to see what goes on there. But I do think that being me, like now in this position that I'm in, working with the clients that I've worked with last year, I can hand on heart say I had a great experience with every single one of them. Whereas when I worked in a recruitment business with people, it was like 5 hours on the phone. You need to speak to this many clients, you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this. The amount of time I spent wasted on people that I just thought, oh God, I just never want to speak to them anymore because they weren't my kind of people. But for stats and to make it look good, I did it. But then now I make more money and I do less because I'm like, well, I work with people that respect me and I work with people that value my time. And that to me is the most important thing.

Yeah. Love that. Great way to end the pod. Thank you. Yeah, really great way. Alicia, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been so lovely to have you on.

Really, really enjoyed it.

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