How to win more clients using Loom and Dripify (Advice from a $885K biller)

Hey guys, welcome back to yet another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview top billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Catherine Gerald. Catherine managed to bill $885K in her first year of recruitment. She's now a member of the Pinnacle Society and a 5-time top recruiter across the FPC network. And just so you know, guys, in order to even qualify for the Pinnacle Society, which arguably has some of the top billers in the world, you have to be billing $500,000+ for 3 to 4 years in a row. Catherine has some epic business development tips that we're going to discuss on this podcast today. We're going to be talking about her drip-ify automated sequences that she uses to book more calls. She's going to be telling us how she uses custom GPTs to do research on companies before the call that saves her hours of time and allows her to go into these calls fully armed with a lot of information. We also talk about something that's not spoken enough, and that's when you're billing at a very high level, why your jobs and your clients are arguably one of the most important things you decide. And Catherine's going to be explaining how she uses Loom videos to connect with high-value prospects and start warmer conversations. Guys, today is going to be a fantastic episode. So much value, so much insight. We hope you enjoy it as much as Ben and I did. And as usual, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this, and let's get into it, shall we? Wait a second, guys. Quick question for you. If you could land a new client on LinkedIn in the next couple weeks, how much would that be worth to you? 20, 30, maybe 40K? Well, we have a pretty crazy offer on right now. If you are a recruitment business owner, then we will work with you for free and write you 2 posts at absolutely no cost. And here's the cool part: other recruiters that have come through this free trial have managed to win new clients. They've racked up hundreds of thousands of impressions and started conversations with top-tier candidates. It's completely risk-free, so you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you're interested, the link's in the description below. If not, no worries. We hope you enjoy the podcast. See you later.

Catherine, thank you so much for joining us today on Top Billers Toolkit. How are you doing?

Well, honored to be here.

Awesome. I've gotta tell people, cause I feel like this is, it was so funny. I would call you um, like the day before I was going to Taiwan to get engaged. And, um, we had a great conversation. And I've got to say congratulations to you, Catherine, as well, because you've just, um, been engaged. And we both recently— everyone's getting engaged nowadays.

Um, I am the jerk that Ben told me he was planning on proposing, and I said, Ben, what do you think she's gonna say? You think she'll say yes?

I didn't even consider that. I was like, wait a minute, really pumped you up there.

Yes.

Um, no, it was, um, it was a great experience and I'm so glad I got you on the podcast today, Catherine. So thank you so much for joining. And we're going to start off with the same question as always, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset, strategy, or software?

I'm gonna go with software.

Interesting.

Don't get many softwares.

No, we don't really.

I would think maybe I'm just the evangelist for tech tools. Um, I would've said Dripify 12 months ago.

Oh, interesting.

Today I'm gonna say MyGPT's in chat.

Interesting. Um, I'd love to start with Dripify actually first, if that's okay, Katherine, cuz we use quite a lot of Dripify. And so why, why Dripify 12 months ago?

Well, I'm, if I'm only picking one, so I use both of those very regularly.

Okay.

And we all know your best new client leads come from past clients, referrals. And so that's why we post on LinkedIn. But with Dripify, in terms of where our actual new clients, those referrals have come from, it's all been via the drips we've set up that way.

Hmm.

So that's why that historically has been our most powerful tool. But lately I've gotten into developing out our own company-wide GPTs in ChatGPT. And, uh, my friend Rebecca Hastings, shout out to her. She's not in my industry, but she did a wonderful kind of how-to class with Mark Whitby and kind of walks you through the power of it and it's just mind-blowing. So now within seconds, before a client call or whatnot, you punch in the URL. And because I've set it up the way I want it to, it spits out research and questions and talking points that would have taken a half hour plus to find anywhere else. So the power and the applications for those customized GPTs is really incredible.

Amazing. That's so cool. And so the the concept for— so Dripify is more of the kind of outreach process, and then the GPT is more for preparation and research before you're speaking to the clients, before you're jumping on a call. Is that correct, Catherine?

Well, that's one application, yes. Okay, supporting LinkedIn posts and responding to emails, uh, it's endless as well. But, um, that's one easy application where it can, you know, save you 30 minutes upfront.

Awesome. I'd love to go deeper into that. I'm going to jump back to Dripify just really quickly, if that's okay, Catherine, because I'd love to know what are your sequences? What are you saying? What are the things that are working for you right now?

Good question. What do you say once you get your right target into LinkedIn? And so, you know, you A/B test this stuff for years and you're always tweaking things as well. You know, the intro that keeps coming back is your name keeps coming up. We run in the same, for me, it's like RF, radio frequency slash radar circles, which is, it feels nichey, but that's why it works because everybody's like, hmm, not everybody reaches out to me with that. So, you know, diversifying it based on your niche and then just, you know, would love to connect. And then once you connect, you know, really, you know, rather than being positioned as a recruiter, you really want to position yourself more as a business advisor. So you need that social proof to get in the door. But to get that next conversation, you've got to dangle something of value, whether it's, hey, we work with these companies. You know, happy to support you depending on 2026 goals. Make sure that companies are lined up, you know, pretty closely in your market too.

Love it. Um, so dangling something of value, I'm glad you said that. I think the number one kind of, um, trigger for recruiters you've spoken to has always been NPCs. So are you using companies? Are you using candidates as well, Catherine? Are you kind of dancing between both, or do you mainly use companies?

So, I personally will do more of like patterns and insights in terms of the carrot I'm dangling. It's a harder one to do. And really, you know, my firm, my market, we're focused on targeting business unit, you know, COOs, ops leaders in that $50 million to $2 billion range, you know, in a very, you know, defense electronics subsegment as well. And with that, they're concerned about EBITDA, margin, and execution. And so those are the three things. And with the help of my customized GPT, I don't have to be a copywriter to come up with that as well. So that's what I'm focusing on because of my market. But I would say for anybody starting out NPCs, the way to go.

Love it. Interesting. And sorry, just to clarify, why aren't you using NPCs, Catherine? Is it just because what you're doing is more effective, or is it because— is it for another reason why you're not going through the NPC route?

Well, it's a good question. If you're truly positioning yourself as a business advisor, you're not pitching anything. You're peeling back the onion in terms of where's the problem and you're hitting the pain point. And so it's a more strategic, less transactional approach. Again, if you're just starting out, you're not gonna have the social proof and street cred. So the MPC is definitely the way to go in terms of those quick, easy wins. But when you're transitioning into, let's say, you know, a buildout, which is really what we're best known for, how to get the company ready to sell with the right leadership team, or we're doing a turnaround because we just got bought and the PE firm is expecting double-digit growth over the next 5 years, those kind of things. And then the conversation becomes more of the, what type of leadership bench is really going to get you to that goal? So, it's a bit more strategic in that regards.

Interesting. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Um, yeah, that's really interesting. And are you going— are you doing— when— because I know in Dripify you can put in, um, you can obviously put in the leads that you're going to be targeting. Are you doing like 10 people at a time? Are you doing 500? Are you doing 20? Like, how big are your campaigns? Are you doing like lots of little campaigns? You're doing one campaign? Like, how does that look behind the scenes, if you don't mind me asking?

Oh, certainly. We've usually got a dozen rolling. So a lot is the point. And we're maxing out our daily outbounds, whatever LinkedIn jail says is the top. So not everyone is going to feel terribly customized. But what I found when I was A/B testing it, because at first I was like, oh, my response is going to go way up if I say RF and to tailor it specifically to that need, but it actually went down. So like, if I do under the defense electronics umbrella and then really know my buyer, which isn't necessarily my hiring manager, my buyer is the one that's gonna jump through HR hurdles for me and connect me with the hiring manager and really only targeting those buyers for conversations because the whole point of any LinkedIn outreach is to book a call, right? And have it not be a candidate call, but really a call about a business need as well. So we've got, you know, at least a dozen rolling.

Love it.

Even if they, you know, are podcast fans of somebody we had on a guest as well, you say, oh, hey, just recorded. 'Oh, I thought you'd be interested in this.' So they aren't all salesy. It's just really about making that connection.

Interesting. And have you found where you get the best responses? Is it on like the first message after you connect, Katherine, or is it on like the fifth? Or do you— have you noticed where you get the best uptick in kind of responses?

That was the first or second.

Yeah, first or second. Yeah, interesting.

I've pulled away from doing the long 5-touch cycles, namely because you've only got a certain amount of outbound messages a day with LinkedIn. And we just did not see people that we pinged 4 or 5 times get back to us. And then also it is kind of embarrassing too when you have that monster call or that pitch that you're going through and you look through your messages to see if you've connected or talked and it's 5 comments and just crickets on the other side.

Yeah, interesting. It's a funny one, isn't it? Because I'm— me and Sam are having this debate, um, recently about like diminishing returns with following up too much, um, and like, and then me listening to another top biller and being like how key timing is. And it's kind of like, it's that perfect balance between understanding that not like very few a very small portion of people are going to have a need. And so it's like it's doing enough volume that you're catching the right people at the right time. So this is an interesting kind of balance, isn't it? Obviously you still want to follow up, but I completely agree, like 5, 6, 7 follow-ups. I don't know, some top billers swear by it, but I don't know, I'm, I'm not 100% convinced of that many follow-ups. But it sounds like you're not either, Catherine.

It's really just about you've got a limited amount of outbound messages and resources, where do you want to spend them?

Yeah, interesting.

If you've got endless, yeah, why not? I mean, not a whole lot to lose. You don't want to pester somebody, but what's the harm? It just seems of greater value to cast a wider net with fewer messages.

Yeah. Is there anything you may— we may have covered it all, but is there anything else we've got a, a new recruiter, or not even new recruiter, a recruiter listening to this right now, and they're like, Catherine, I really want to replicate what you're doing and get as much success as possible through this outbound process. Is there anything that we haven't mentioned that might be useful to them in terms of increasing their chances of getting that call with a client, you think?

I think paying a ton of attention to the keywords and what you show on LinkedIn, your LinkedIn profile is huge because you message somebody, they view your profile, you can see that, awesome. They're determining whether you're of value to them and what level you're at. Obviously a COO is not going to be like pumped about talking to a 90-day-out recruiter as well. So how do you create that value add on your LinkedIn profile. And really, you know, if you don't have a ton to work with, you got to be 10 times better in terms of the content that you're putting up. And there's videos, there's documents, you know, you can start posting those kind of things. But somehow you've got to frame it in a way where you're up here.

Mm, I love that. We haven't had— in fact, I don't think there's been any recruiters that have said going back to your profile, but it's such a good point. Like, virtually every conversation you have, people are going to go back to your profile and have a look at your brand. And then probably go to your website or something. Um, and so what would— I'm guessing it's, it's, it's, it's branding, it's the key, it's the words you're using, it's the— it's how much when they read your headline in your about section, do— does this person understand my niche and do they understand what I'm going through? Um, anything else that I've missed from that in terms of like main elements with the profile?

Yeah, I mean, make sure your niche is small enough where you can say something that speaks to them because they're going to decide, is there a job they're leading that would be interesting to me? So the type of jobs that you recruit for is really important. And then if it's your dream target, which is a client, are they going to be plugged into my space enough that they can help me build a team? The answer to that's probably no if you're fresh out. So the question is, how do we get creative and use other people on the team, use their content, post a picture with me and my really well-connected boss? You know, how do we leverage the internal team content to create that?

Interesting. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Um, love that. Sam, I know I've been kind of taking the floor with questions here. Are you cool with me Carry on, but you have anything?

I just had a, a couple questions, or one. Am I right in saying that with the Dripify, um, campaign, Katherine, you don't go directly for the hiring managers? You said you go for the buyers and then they introduce you to the hiring managers. Did I hear that correctly, or?

Yes.

Cool.

So I did an exercise where I looked at over the last 12 placements, who is the buyer, who is the hiring manager, their titles, and how I got introduced in, in all cases, the buyer in my space was a COO or a business unit manager, GM, even a CEO of a smaller firm. And essentially that role does the same thing in my world. 5 different titles, you know, could be VP of Ops as well. But it was that position that either gave me the job directly and became my hiring manager or introduced me to somebody on their team, you know, even lower level as well that became my hiring manager. So it was that profile exclusively that made it happen.

Interesting. So you kind of widened your net of the people you can go after within the organization. Knowing that eventually you'll get to the hiring manager in essence. Am I right in saying that or?

Well, you narrow your focus really. And so before that, I was looking at, you know, 5 different titles. We'd have, you know, CHR, CEO, VP of Engineering, you know, CFO. You're just looking for decision makers. But after doing that process, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Nobody except the COO, VP of Ops, this role has actually driven revenue for my company except this title. So it allows you to be much more focused.

And it might be an obvious question, Catherine, but why was that title the one who was more successful? Why, why did you get a better response rate from that title as opposed to, like, say, the CEO?

A lot of it has to do with the roles we're recruiting for. Um, so I would put the COO in that bucket as well. So in my niche, you know, type of roles that we fill, the COO or the GM, the VP of Ops is going to have the most oversight and also the most pressure in terms of that P&L ownership. And so they're going to be the most highly motivated to either upgrade, you know, talent if it's struggling, or also fill that bench if there's some urgent hiring as well. And they're also willing, much more willing to go head-to-head with HR if there's vendor lists and hoopla as well, depending on the size of the organization. So you really need somebody driving you forward as an advocate. And that's why for me, it's going to be different depending on everybody's industry. That was the title. That became very apparent that it was my target. So I'd encourage everybody to just walk through their last 12 placements and see, you know, if there's patterns in that buyer and think about it as a different role than the hiring manager.

Yeah, I love that. And it sounds so simple, but it's like, it makes so much sense focusing on like who's under the most amount of pressure, who's got the most skin in the game, who who, who's, who's impacted most by these hires and like go after them, speak to them, because it makes sense that if you can vocalize the pain in the right way and demonstrate enough credibility, they're going to at least have a conversation with you. So really, really good tips. Um, I might be imagining this, Catherine, but I remember when we spoke, I was in my car, I think we was— I think we were speaking on WhatsApp, and you— I think you said something about a video follow-up process. Are you using video? Am I imagining this? Were you using any kind of video process for prospecting?

Your memory is spot on.

Well, amazing.

Cool. I have been playing with video content for at least 4 years now and tried to interview. I use Loom to help me create them. I find it to be extremely low cost, very effective, and I'm making, you know, 1, 1.5 minute videos too. So For example, one of our client outreach campaigns is like a great to connect. And so if they connect with me, so often you get busy doing something else and there's no follow-up after they connect. It's just like crickets, or you get some standard drip going and that's fine. 'Cause so often there's people that you're like, oh, I don't really know why we put them in here. But if they're a high value target and they just connected with you, Then we send them just a video intro, which is super easy. Hey, Katherine Gerald, El Rey Search. You speak to a pain point, just the normal introducing yourself that's 1 minute long. And then no response, we send them into an email campaign as well.

Interesting. And so that video is not tailored per person, it's just a generic But I'm still very effective kind of video that you'll send to connections in the drip campaign. Am I right in saying that, Catherine?

Yeah, so I've played with doing customized video. And if you really commit to it, you'll be like, oh my God, I have cracked the code on BD. This is working. But if you're like most recruiters I know, particularly if you own your own firm too, it is really hard to keep that discipline in your day when you've got deals to close, you know, money to make, and the tail feels so long. So I experiment with customized. I was blown away by the results, but I was the bottleneck. So that's why I've modified that to a more standardized version that we can send to anybody in our avatar.

Interesting. So, so you were getting better results with the customized version, but—

oh, absolutely. But you can't hit the volume.

Yeah, no, interesting.

Um, it's just time consuming. So I mean, if you got the time, that's cool. Uh, all you're doing is client dev and you have no clients, by all means go for it. But, um, my problem with doing that was really around execution and the time in my day.

Yeah, no, of course, I completely get it. Um, and just to clarify, what was the difference in personalization between the personalized and the drip? Is it just name? Are you going into a lot more detail about their company? Like, how, how big is the gap for the personalization here from, from both methods?

Yeah, so in terms of the content, I think that's what you're asking, what's different. Yeah, so on a customized Great to Connect video, I don't spend— like, try to spend as little time as possible because otherwise you can't hit volume. So I simply show their LinkedIn profile and your camera pops up and you say, hey John, great to connect. Looks like we know a lot of the same people, 65 interns. All you're doing is trying to tell them you're not a bot. You've got social proof and then you need to dangle some other carrot. Hey, we work with firms like XYZ. I see you've worked there as well. You know, we're seeing some patterns lately in clients that are winning new contracts. You know, so add something of value. I'm happy to share that with you, you know, just ping me back and let me know. Good time. Love that.

I, I just want to, just want to, for people that don't know, some savvy outbound people might know this, but when you start the Loom video on their LinkedIn profile, the thumbnail comes up with their LinkedIn profile. I'm like, Catherine. And so a random, like, if you, if you go into your DMs, they're going to see their own profile in the DMs. So they're going to know that it's either a very, very sophisticated software— or sophisticated software, should I say— or it's personalized. So it's just a much better way to pull people in, isn't it, with, with some sort of either their website or their LinkedIn or a piece of content, something like that? Is that what happened in your case, Catherine? You were using it as a thumbnail, am I right?

Yes, and just in their LinkedIn too. Yeah, so your conversion rate, it was through the roof.

Um, awesome. That's a really great little tip there. It's funny, I haven't— I've done that method via email for some reason. I haven't done it on LinkedIn. I don't know why I haven't tried that on LinkedIn, but it's interesting.

I like LinkedIn a lot better in my world, but keep in mind I'm all defense electronics because nobody, you know, everybody's been terrified of cyber security and we've got all these federal regs, and so nobody in my world is clicking on links and it's not going through to their work account. So with that Loom and LinkedIn, they can see that it's personalized and it's not something wacky.

No, I agree. I think back in the day, Loom links via email, maybe 3 years ago, were a lot easier to get people to click. Nowadays it's so much harder, not just because of cybersecurity but because of deliverability as well. It's just like, yeah, I think it's about— I would be skeptical if like some random dude or dudess kind of came into my my, uh, my email and just said, hey, click this link, I would be really nervous. So it's interesting how people's perception of links has completely changed over time. Um, really interesting. Um, I've got to mention this, Catherine, because this is pretty impressive. You were a 5-time top recruiter across the entire FPC network. Um, and so for people that don't know what the FPC network is, can you explain what that is? And then How did you become a 5-time top recruiter across that network? Because that sounds like a pretty impressive accolade.

Well, thank you. So FPC stands for Fortune Personnel Consultants. It's a franchise network, probably most similar to MRI in terms of how it functions. You got a lot of small offices across the nation as well. And so I grew up in that world. I was second gen. When I was like 14 years old, probably even 12, to be quite honest. My dad knocked on my door and was like, hey, Katherine, let's take your daughter to Workday. I was like, Dad, that was last week. Nope, it's today. You're getting out of school. So I came in to set up the office computers on his day one. And so I've grown up in that franchise recruiting environment as well. So in response, I had an early education. And so that was one of the reasons I think I hit success, you know, right right out of the gates at, you know, 23 years old as well. And then, so there's a lot of expectation, you know, for you and for others when you grow up in that world. And truly, I think I wanted it more than my competitors. And I've got a good friend that played, you know, pro basketball. And he said, the one thing after all those games, I realized the only difference really was between who won and lost was who wanted it more.

Interesting. That's such a good— it's such an interesting point. It's like, but you can't like— wanting it more is— it's so internal, isn't it? You cannot like You can't just want it more randomly, can you? It's like you either have this kind of experience from childhood— I don't know, I'm not a psychologist, so I can't go deep into the reasons behind this deep drive to succeed. But you obviously had this, Catherine, right? I don't know, I don't know how it was, uh, ingrained into you, but you said the pressure partly. I just find it fascinating because it, it's probably quite rare, right? Otherwise everyone would be successful. Everyone would be super successful if they had that. Deep drive to succeed and to be the best. I don't know, there's not really a question around this. I'm kind of just speaking my mind about something that I've always found quite fascinating.

Well, and in Pinnacle Society, which I joined 3 years ago, you get, you know, your top billers in the world, really, because we've got some international as well now. So it's only 80 people. So it's a fun study when you're looking around the room because we all know each other and you're trying to backward engineer success, right? And, um, you know, the minimum threshold to get in is like consistent, and, you know, I think well over $600,000 annual billings for like 5 years, and that's just to get invited. Um, and then some of the top billers are easily doing, you know, $2 million a year kind of things, like monster numbers. And so you look around and you're like, how— what is the commonality here? And I think again, it's the, this group wanted it more. And so what that means from an external standpoint is I assumed everybody before they started was reading up on the books on how to brush up their LinkedIn profile, was playing podcasts on their runs. Like to me, that's just what you do if you want to win. Like in your off hours, there's, you know, you're educating yourself and really, you know, running through the is to learn those skills as quickly as you can. Um, I think that's probably truly what separates that and, uh, you know, good head of resiliency in terms of who's successful and who's not.

So interesting. Um, so you obviously wanted it more to win. So there's two things I got from the answer from that, from that question about being a 5-time top recruiter. You were brought up, um, in the recruitment world from a very young age, so you learn a lot faster than the average person, which is great, and then you just wanted it more. Was there anything that you were doing as a result of wanting it more? Was it like, were you just making more calls? Were you, were you going the extra mile to meet clients? Were you staying later? Like, were there any specific things that you could, you could tangibly say, Catherine, like got you ahead of the pack, if that makes sense?

So everybody comes on podcasts and say, oh, we're grinding it. Everybody's doing 100 phone calls a day. And this is like back in the day when I started, keep that in mind, like 20 years ago. Then, and I'll say it has changed now, we can convert it to outbounds. I truly did. And I worked remotely a long time too. Every morning when I got in the office, I had my call sheet from the day before and I made my 50 outbounds of client dev calls. Calls. It only takes you 90 minutes because nobody picks up. Like, you can probably get it done in 45 when nobody picks up. And it's a painful exercise, but you have done more than 90% of recruiters by— I always start at 7, so 8:30, you're done with the hard part of your day. Now everything else is just recruiting. So that was one, just discipline that I actually did. And even with my team today, 3 days a week, we all get on Teams, we stare at each other, mute up, and do the same thing. And it seems a little masochistic when you make 50 calls and nobody picks up. I think it's twofold, though. It's the exercise of just getting on the phone and having— developing those phone skills in an early age. But just putting in the reps too. So, I think that was like the one tactic that probably set me apart. But the mindset that I got, I think it's more of a fear of failure than a drive for success, to be quite honest, which doesn't paint me in the best light, but either way, you know, the outcome's the same. And I would look at my job board because this is in the days of 360 recruiting, which I know most people do not do anymore. And I think it is the biggest, The biggest sin that we're doing to our new recruiters is not throwing them into a 360 desk. Yes, they'll stay longer. They can learn it. It's nicer, but they don't become monster billers without some of these hard truths as well. And so when you are tasked with $0, unless it's what you bring in and make it yourself, all of a sudden your job board takes on a different flavor. And I would look at my job board with a very pessimistic mind. And I think new recruiters are so optimistic and you don't want to crush their spirit entirely, but they have a call. They're like, great, he picked up. Oh, okay. Well, tell me about it. I had a job intake. Okay. They're hiring next quarter. Like, that's not a job intake. There's no urgency. Well, how many other recruiters are on it? Like, that is not something you should work. That is terrible. But they're so excited, you know, because they developed their phone skills that they run off and try to fill this search. Surge. So really, you know, the biggest differentiator between somebody that bills a lot and doesn't is the quality of jobs and the quality of clients they're able to bring in. And until you're able to bring in those great clients, you gotta do a lot in terms of volume. So not spending my time on dead-end clients, dead-end surges, and really taking that lens of I am never going to close another deal in my life. All of these jobs suck and I have nothing on my board. That is kind of what I went into the day with. And it propels you forward. And so I think we— it's helpful to take a pessimistic look at your job board and think, okay, all this can explode. What do we really have? And it may be nothing. Usually it is nothing.

Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, such a great It's such a great mindset.

I'm Debbie Downer for the moment here, but like—

No, I don't— I mean, I think I've heard so many successful people who are driven by the fear of failure. Then, then, I mean, I think it's more of a motivator apparently. I don't know, I think it's more of a push. Um, but regardless, I guess it doesn't really matter as long as it works for you and it gets you to your goal. It doesn't really make a difference. But I, I'm probably similar to you, Katherine, where I have a pessimistic view on things like, like you are. I'll always assume the worst. And so that makes me go a little bit further and, and try that little bit harder. So I think— I'm sure a lot of people probably have— maybe not a lot, but I'm sure there's a lot of— there's some people out there that have a similar mindset. Um, that kind of brings me nicely on to the next question, which you talked about the quality of clients. Um, and you said that the money is on the client side. Um, and in another podcast— sorry, not not in this podcast, but you said the money is on the client side. Um, how do you identify the right accounts to go after? Um, and what does breaking into a new one actually look like for you?

So we talked a little bit about GPTs early on. That's the easiest way. Um, so you've got to have a defined niche. There's no way you can be a general recruiter today. I've seen it work in locations. That's the only place I've seen it work where you're only working, let's say Nashville, et cetera. Um, so you define your niche, then we all know, get the right clients. In terms of where you're gonna add the most value and get the biggest fees, if you know the name of the company or like your kid does or somebody next to you does, it's not a good target. They've got a robust talent acquisition team. They do not need you. So really focus on those teams that either are early days or just starting to grow and you need more than one job. So you need some kind of growth story happening. Obviously the PE world, we know they're going to dump cash in, expand out the team, do changeovers. So those are always things we're watching. Anytime a company gets bought as well. So you want to look for high-growth players that are not mature in terms of that talent acquisition piece. And then in terms of just the messaging, again, this is where GPT can be very helpful and your LinkedIn as well. Create campaigns that are actually going to hit their pain point. And whether it's, you know, dropping names of past client work. If you don't have those, use other people's from your team as well. If you tell anybody, hey, I couldn't help but notice you just finished your pro— or you just posted on your product line manager. I just filled this search for, you name their competitor. I've got the top 5 candidates. We should talk.

Yeah. It's like, how can you say no to that?

It's not even an NPC, but it's like—

it's interesting. Yeah, that's a really good point.

You could kind of do it at scale too, even if you don't know if they've got it. You just, you know, same story. Just take out the part about I saw you were looking for.

Yeah.

Name the competitor, the search you came off of, and, you know, we should talk because I've got everybody in the market if you're looking to upgrade. Who wouldn't want to upgrade?

Yeah, that's such a good point. I feel like that's, that's such a strong route naming competitors. And exactly what you said, like that line, people could just take from this podcast, I figure they could take that exact line and use it in their outbound.

You don't have to customize it, no work needed.

Um, interesting. And the, the GPT part, um, what are you using it for exactly? Is it for the messaging? What are you typing in, or what are you commanding it to do in the research phase? Just out of curiosity, Catherine, are you saying like look for all of the companies in this state that have just had funding, or like is it helping with any of the targeting at all, or are you doing all the targeting in another software or in another way?

Nope, you essentially just load your ideal candidate profile, tell them what you're looking for Tell them what format you want to spit it back in. Tell me the revenue. I always want to know the top leaders because then I can hand that to my assistant. She can double-check they're on LinkedIn. She can ping them right then. Um, and then, you know, using those lists, you create the campaigns as well. Like for the actual how-to build my GPT and make it look like this, uh, I am not paid by any means. But Rebecca Hastings, uh, who's also a coach with Mark Whitby on Recruitment Coach, has the videos, the playbook as well. So she walks you through exactly step by step how to do it.

And just to clarify, the— you're uploading candidates into, into GPT, a candidate list, right? And you're saying, hey, ChatGPT— obviously the prompt's going to be more sophisticated, but you're saying in simple terms, hey, ChatGPT, I've got these 5 candidates can you, can you locate the top 10 companies that these candidates would be suitable for? Is that what you're doing, or am I getting this wrong?

That's one way.

Okay, well, what is the way that you do it? I might have misunderstood, uh, Catherine.

What's the way you can do it that way? But see, for me personally, I'm going to get companies outside my ideal candidate profile. So I've got— and most people do, you know, you build out your avatar of what your ideal candidate client profile looks like and define exactly. They've got to be in defense electronics. I want only VP of Ops. I want this revenue size and I want them growth or PE-backed or revenue of X percentage kind of thing. And it'll spit you back 10. Okay, give me 20. Map out the leadership teams from there. And so I'm much more concerned with the company and what stage they're at than who I'm pitching, if that makes sense.

Yes, interesting.

But you can do it either way. I mean, it'll do whatever you tell it to, just build the—

yeah, I know. I guess it's better to go with what you're doing because it works, it's working for you. And so, you know, I know what it's like with AI, it's like you can— the quality of the output varies quite, quite a lot depending on the prompt in the process.

If the output sucks, it's because you didn't spend the time to do it right. It's not the bot.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Um, and I might be being slow, Katherine, but where are you actually building your lists?

What's—

what software are you using to, to hunt down your target customers?

So we've got the ZoomInfo subscription. We honestly use chat for a lot of that too. It knows my ideal candidate profile. It's pulling from a million different websites. That's usually my starting place.

So you are literally— sorry, sorry.

So no, just so you're literally building your target companies starting from ChatGPT?

Yeah, I mean, if you're— somebody's listening right now and you're in front of your screen, it's going to be stupid because you haven't built your chat, but just try out the prompt. Here's my market, my ideal client profile. Who should I target? And then you can define it down there too. And it'll give you maybe 10. And then you start— that's how you kind of start talking to it and it starts learning what you want. And then once you get kind of that piece and you're blown away by, oh my gosh, I didn't think of this. And even, you know, oh, this is the leaders there. Then it'll inspire you to build your own GPT, which gets smarter.

And again, I might be being slow, but how do you get their details? So they might tell you the company, the decision makers, but how are you getting the Do you just go and search them up on LinkedIn and then manually grab the profiles? Is it giving you numbers? Like, how are you getting the actual details to send the messages, if you see what I mean?

So LinkedIn and chat don't talk well together. So that's a very good point. So in terms of getting the contact info, it's laborious like it always has been. And so you either need to have an assistant, which is a great job if you've got an assistant, take their profile, cross-check it with LinkedIn, which is going to be the most, the quickest. Grab their profile, and if you're putting in your ATS like we do, you know, follow your process for finding regular contact info that way. I mean, we supplement with Zoom once that happens.

Awesome, awesome. That makes a lot of sense.

It's amazing how sophisticated AI is getting now, like, so you can actually identify companies, you know, to a granular level and, you know, have it being an important part of the BD process. I just find it fascinating. In like a year's, two years' time, it's going to be incredible. Like, it's— I know it's already incredible, but it's just quite exciting.

I think it'll solve this laborious process because most people I know, we've got, you know, five different software things we use on the hour that don't talk. Yeah. And I would love my chatbot, the one I create to do exactly what you said, which is spit me back my LinkedIn profiles and be able to just click on that phone number, click on that text in one spot.

Yeah.

And another quick question, Katherine, how is— because I'm guessing the reason you're continuing to use it must mean it's bringing you back reliable data. But when you're searching for ideal companies and it's saying, hey, yes, this is a good company with these profiles, Is it typically pretty accurate? Is it bringing back pretty accurate information like most of the time, or do you need to ask it more questions and tweak it, or what's going on there?

That's a good point. In the beginning, when you start the journey, you're gonna be like, what? This isn't true. Keep in mind it's a bot, it's learning from you, and you need to tell it stuff like, you know, related to recency. And I mean, the inter— in terms of the how-to, again, And Rebecca's piece is just wonderful. She gives you all the prompts and everything for how to, you know, specifically do that. Yeah, the data is going to be as good as you make it.

Cool. Okay, so if I was just putting in a basic prompt, it's not going to bring me back very accurate information, but if you put—

hit or miss, you know.

Yeah, okay, see what you get. Yeah, okay. And so how long did you have to prompt your chat um, until you were like, cool, this is accurate? Was it like a month of using, or was it a couple of weeks? Was it 3 months, 6 months? What— how long did it take you until you were like, okay, this is actually bringing back my ideal, my ICP now?

It's less about the time and more about how you set it up. So if you've got a killer document, you know, that shows your ideal client profile down to a T, your data is going to be great overnight.

Yeah. Yeah.

Most of us are clunky and do this in spurts. So that's why it took me a long time until I settled down, was like, okay, I'm going to learn how to do this for me, create the documents, tell it exactly what I want. And now it's great.

Amazing. It's like, not surprisingly, the more you understand about your niche and the more data you have up front to give it, the faster it will learn and the better the results. Um, really interesting. Very cool. Very, very cool. Definitely something I'm going to research more into after this call, Katherine, because, uh, yeah, not many recruiters have mentioned that as part of the process. Um, so it's definitely something, something interesting. Um, we don't have long left, Katherine. It's just been an amazing podcast so far. So thank you so much for your knowledge and your wisdom. I'd love to try and end on the question of you flip recruiting calls into BD conversations. I'm sure people might be interested in hearing how you do that.

Would you mind walking us through that process, please, or give us the network and flip?

Yes.

So it is a whole lot easier to gain a conversation if you've got a job in hand. Rather than trying to pitch a candidate, a solution, anything else. So you've got to go after your target buyer, which means you have to have a job high enough that they could be interested in either giving you a referral or usually it's most like interested for themselves. So like you call up a VP of Ops, they're not going to care about your senior accountant in Huntsville. So go into it with the right level, but it could be anybody on the team. It doesn't have to be your job either. You go into it to gain the conversation. Most senior level people will find a referral, even if they're like, no. And you say, well, hey, appreciate you doing me a solid by taking this call and having a chat. I'm mapping out. Out your entire market, tell them exactly what that is, defense, electronics, RF, space, talking to every ops manager. What type of profile do you want to see when it comes across my desk? They all tell you and then they're like, oh, it's probably 3 months out. So, it's like, okay, that's not a real job, but come back in 3 months. Or, oh, what I think HR is really looking for, and they may Pass it on. Oh, no. So that's how you gain that piece.

Cool.

But also the way, like, if somebody gives you a referral, in some ways your head's like, okay, they just gave me something, so I can't ask for more.

Yeah.

Even like, they took my call. I can't ask for more. Oh no. That is when you do and you frame it as the, oh, you just did me a solid. I'd like to do you one. What type of role do you want me to call you about when I see this profile?

Hmm, interesting. It's funny how valuable a good job is because it's like— and a good client— because it's like not only are they probably going to make you more money, easier to fill, but you can also, if you leverage it properly like you're saying, Catherine, you can win a lot more business from it as well, can't you? Because it's like you're dangling this really valuable carrot in front of people that that will allow you to start conversations. Um, is that a big part? What percentage would you say is that of your BD process? Is it quite a big part? Is it a small sliver? Is it— what's the— how useful is it?

That is extremely— it's good for new clients, it's good for refreshing existing clients. I think most of us will say all of our real business comes from past clients, myself included. But the question is How do you stay in front of those past clients? How do you be their first call when they've got 3 other firms, you know, they can work with? And so it's an excuse to have a conversation as well. If you're just starting out, you don't have past clients, you need to spend all your time doing this stuff.

Yeah, interesting. And one final question, because this is close to mine and Sam's heart, which is content. I know you mentioned content quite a lot, and I'm just curious how useful it's been and/or what impact you've seen it making in the kind of overall cycle and journey with prospects. Um, do you mind me asking about that, Catherine?

Yes, so I do a podcast, I post 3 times on LinkedIn, and those are the 2 primary content drivers we have.

Awesome. I, I, I'm embarrassed to say, Catherine, I didn't know that you had a podcast, which is amazing.

So that's why I've got a cool mic. If you're watching, you can see it.

You sound, you sound like a radio host, Catherine. You've got the voice of a radio host. That's very cool. And not just from the mic, but because of the way that you speak as well. Um, and so I'm guessing the podcast must have been quite useful for, for just connecting with, with valuable people in your sector?

It's great for social proof. If you need revenue in the door tomorrow and cash is a crunch, I would not go down that route. Like, it's a long tail.

Yeah.

LinkedIn can be a much quicker tail if you're new at posting content. First thing to do is just do a poll, do a thoughtful poll. And if you've built your GPT— is another plug for this— GPT will make one for you that's 10 times better than what you would've thought. So just do a stinking poll, see who responds, make it totally relevant to your market. And then everybody that likes it or votes, you can, if they're in your ideal client profile, it's a good excuse to reach out. Hey, thanks for voting in this. Thought you'd be interested in the results. Curious how X is, you know, doing Y, that kind of thing.

Love that. Keep forgetting about polls. They're such simple but brilliant tools, aren't they? I haven't seen a poll in ages. I feel like everyone's just stopped doing them now. Yeah, um, like I literally haven't seen a poll in months. Maybe it's just my feed because I, I haven't been interacting with them. Um, are you guys seeing polls on, on LinkedIn? I don't see them.

I think people rinse them for a while and then stop doing them, but they're fantastic, uh, BD tools, as Catherine said, because you can see everyone that's interacted with them.

This year I've noticed 2026, the content has to be so stinking good to pop off. I feel like last year you could get away with like mediocre stuff. Yeah. This year, the only thing I'm seeing really pop in terms of, you know, our impressions and views, personal stuff. So how do you tie your personal stuff into your industry and then really good content for your ideal client.

Hmm. Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah, we've definitely found text-only stuff is what we're seeing as the number one.

Yeah, us too. Definitely. Like generally across all our clients, text-only seems to be more effective.

So just throwing out content ain't going to do it and you'll be very disappointed. Like use your GPTs because it's got to be stinking good to pop. Or at a minimum, post a picture of a dog and then that might start you on your journey because those always fly.

I love it. And if you don't have a dog, go buy a dog and use that for your—

buy your neighbors.

Catherine, um, I know you've got a hard stop today, so I think we're going to wrap it up there. But I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Genuinely, I absolutely loved it. I know it was mainly me speaking today as opposed to Sam, which is quite rare, but I, I absolutely loved taking the floor today and, and having you as a guest. So thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.

Pleasure, Ben and Sam. Thank you for what you're doing for our community.

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.