Crafting Chocolate: A Family Tradition

Hello everyone, happy Thursday. It's just one day away from Friday and another day away from the weekend. Welcome to my friend, uh, Dan Abel. Is that Abel Jr.?

Yes.

Uh, and, uh, obviously co-host, uh, Adam Smith. We are here today to talk about chocolate. And it's funny, we've been trying to get this going for a couple months. And unfortunately I was explaining to Dan that I have the chocolate here. I have it all. The problem is I ate it all. It was really good. Especially by Bissinger's.

Yes.

Uh, is, uh, this is actually a cocktail. So they actually make, uh, actually put the spirit inside the candy. This went first, by the way, just to let you know. I think this lasted all of about maybe an hour. I'm not sure, but I was chocolate. I was, I was enjoying it. I was trying to save at least one piece of chocolate before we got going. Anyway, welcome, Dan.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah. Thanks for coming on. We really very much appreciate it. We love Uh, talking to, uh, founders and, uh, we love to, uh, learn about how, how the company was started, you know, kind of where you're currently sitting, where it's going, and, and learn about you. So, uh, tell us how the heck did we find each other and how the heck are you on DrinkUp?

I, uh, you know, we started, uh, the business just has such a wonderful story and it's 350 years old. So the brand started in 1668 Paris, uh, and My, my, I feel like one of my jobs and responsibilities is to tell the story. The story is so special and so powerful that if we stop telling it, then it goes away. And so part of my journey in storytelling is the medium of podcast. And I, I always joke that if I get in my car and I switch back to the radio, it's usually a Disney music channel because anytime I'm in my car by myself, I'm listening to a podcast. And anytime I listen to music, it's when my kids get in my car on the weekend. I'm always, I just am fascinated by it and I love, I love doing this and telling the story. And I think just that's how our path crossed of, you know, how can we continue to tell this, you know, and there's so much content. So I feel like every time I have the opportunity to be on a podcast, we look at a different chapter of Bissinger's and, and kind of, you know, hear it and tell it in a different way.

Well, we, we love it that you're coming on to Drink Up and telling your story every time we, uh, We do this with an individual, we learn something new, like in terms of like what your business is and is there an opportunity to tie into our business? So we both are in the, um, food and beverage side of the, uh, business. And, uh, so we'd love to learn more about the whole process. So this is your family, it's been in your family for over 300 years?

I wish. Uh, so my, my parents started a candy company in 1981 called Chocolate Chocolate Chocolate Company, and they named The company after their three kids, and I'm the second child. I have an older sister and younger brother. All of us work are involved in part of the ownership of the company now. Then that, and my dad started this company after he apprenticed as a candy maker for a while. So he really got his feet wet and learned it and loved it. Then in 19, so about six years ago, six almost six years to the day, it was June of 2019. Not that we're counting. We acquired Bissinger's, and so Bissinger's was a Great St. Louis company. They're coming up to 100 years in St. Louis, but a total time period of existence was 1668 is kind of the first date we can find. So they may have started a little bit before then, but I think 350+ years is a good enough time to call the founding of a, of a brand. And, uh, so my family's been in the business for over 40 years, Bissinger specifically for 6.

Interesting. So have you identified any, uh, business, your family members, anything? Have you searched for them?

So there are still family members that are customers. So this is my favorite story to tell. We were going through, we bought the company in 2019 and it was chaos, but I like chaos. So it was good for me, but 6 months of implementation, moving the facility to our facility, doing construction. moving equipment, everything you can think of under one roof. In January of 2020, we thought we could take a breath and breathe a little bit. We made it through our first Christmas. As we all know how this story goes, COVID hits and our world is thrown upside down. And then believe it or not, we had an epic Easter. And even though our retail stores were forced not to be closed, we still had the biggest Easter in history because online was crazy. So by like June of 2020, 12 months into this ownership, we finally stopped, paused, and finished unpacking because we had boxes and boxes. I mean, literally pallets of these artifacts from newspaper clippings to VHSs of old, you know, to every catalog since the 1970s. And so we really started going through it. And one of the things that I opened this box and I pulled out a piece of paper and I was just kind of sorting and we're making piles, but then I said, oh my gosh, this is Carl Bissinger's death certificate. And he was the last Bissinger to own the company, and he was the one that moved the company to St. Louis. So, you know, there was one family member that moved the company from Paris to the United States, and they went to Cincinnati, and then the son Carl went from Cincinnati to St. Louis. So he moves the company to St. Louis. He's the last one I look at his death certificate and I see that his doctor is listed on there along with his home address, occupation, everything else. His doctor happens to be my great-grandfather.

Wow.

And so as I'm going through this, I had this out-of-body experience where I said, how is Oliver Abel's signature on a Bissinger, like Abel and Bissinger overlap in the '40s? Almost 100 years later, 80-plus years later, and now it's happening again. And so I just, I felt that day, you know, we were on a mission. We were Chocolate, Chocolate, Chocolate Company was growing. It was successful, it was profitable. And, and Bissinger's was, was this passion project. We loved the brand and company, and when the opportunity came to buy it, we said, let's do it. And I felt like that day solidified that this is not, this is not just a company to us. This is a mission. And, um, I felt that that was the sign that told me that we are on the right path.

Wow. How many, like, is this a competitive category? There are a lot of chocolate companies in the country or?

You know, there's a lot, but, uh, there's a lot of categories, as funny as that sounds like there's, there's, um, there's luxury, there's premium, there's specialty, there's value, you know, and then in, in that there's, there's pan, there's gummies, there's chocolate bars, there's box chocolates. Well, we, we try to do the impossible. We, you know, we do everything handmade. Most of what we do goes back to that 1899 recipe book, really premium source ingredients. I mean, we'll spend any amount of money it takes for the best ingredients. And we're getting very much challenged with that right now because chocolate has tripled in price. So we're very, you know, we always say the finest ingredients, no matter what, and then chocolate triples in price and we're like, oh, interesting. But still use the same level of chocolate as we did, you know, 3 years ago. But well, you know, the whole world is a marketplace. I have purchased different ingredients in different currencies. And It's that important to me because we still have a lot of European connections for Bissinger's as a, you know, as a company out of 350 years, half of that was in Europe. And so for me, the finest ingredients with this really skilled team of artisan candy makers to craft it all together. Right. And then over the top elegant packaging.

So is your father the founder of Chocolate Chocolate Chocolate?

Yes.

And then the 3 kids were named after it as a herd. And then I'm gonna let Adam come in cuz I'm like hogging all the questions. Sorry, I'm just so excited because By the way, can I get another order of chocolate or just tell me where to go?

You absolutely can. In fact, I regret not emailing you like 2 days ago about this, but it's kind of good news. You ate all the chocolate in 45 minutes. I mean, that's a testament right there.

Well, you can see it in my face, obviously.

Don't threaten Sam with a good time.

My goodness. Um, but so your father wasn't a success overnight, right? So the journey of this, um, this business, uh, you, I saw you started as like VP of sales and then you've taken the helm. You're chief chocolate officer.

What's Chief Chocolate Officer. Well, when you print the business cards, you can create your own title. Right.

Does that mean you run the joint or is there like someone else running it? Are you guys like, you know, your sister?

It depends who you ask. If you ask me, I feel like absolutely. If you ask a sibling of mine, my parents are very much, you know, they come in for an hour or 2 here and there. So they, they will not raise their hand and say that they run the place anymore. But we always joke, you know, my, my siblings always say, we don't know what you do. And then I go on vacation and they realize. I always say like, I'm the composer. You know, there's a very talented group and I just keep the, I just keep the music playing. That's a lot of, that's a lot of work. But I did everything as, you know, from learned from our candy makers, running our lines, working in our warehouse. And sometimes we do all that on the same day at the holidays. But, uh, you know, the, the way, the reason the family business works well is we, we're pretty diverse in what we do. We have, uh, we have a manufacturing facility, we have retail stores, we have a wholesale division. So we make the product, we ship the product, we distribute it ourselves. We have our own, you know, so Each family member kind of has taken a flavor of that and we don't really butt heads at all. A lot of times, you know, most big decisions have 3 signatures on it minimum. And then sometimes we all just make unilateral decisions and hope it's the right one.

Well, and then you're located in St. Louis?

Yeah.

So Adam, we have a free place to stay and it's right in the factory and all the chocolate. It's like Willy Wonka's finest. Like we got the golden ticket. I was looking for the golden ticket, by the way, in here.

You didn't get the right box. You gotta keep searching.

Right. You gotta buy more, Sam.

You gotta keep buying.

Now we're, uh, the candy, the whole bit.

Where's the other one? I'm trying to look and see if I have one close by. There are, there's this gold insert with foil now in every new box. So it kind of is, it kind of is the golden ticket now.

Yeah. Oh, Adam, you've been, I know you're hungry. I know we're about dinner later tonight, but what, what do you get? What, uh, what do you, deep thinking here? Well, I think— And he talked about getting into the can business. We'll get to that, uh, shortly.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so like one of the, the, biggest questions I have for, for you as the person who, you know, whether it's chocolate or anything else, represents a company with some serious, you know, by American standards, with some serious, you know, experience under its belt, right? By American standards, a company that's 300 years old is—

Predates America.

Right, exactly. You know, it's funny, you know, you travel to Europe and they say, you know, it's 300 years old and the Americans go, oh my God. The Europeans are like, who cares? We got stuff way older than that. Right. But I'm, I'm, so with that in mind, right, I would love your feedback on, okay, you're, you're 300 years old, you're 100 years old. Like you have a substantial amount of, of history and a brand that you wanna stay true to, but you also wanna remain relevant in the current conversation. Even just as somebody who, who, you know, works in the, the RTD beverage space, like, thank God I do ops and I'm not a marketer because the thought of trying to balance those 2 things sounds like an insurmountable task to me. So how do you guys do it?

Well, I think that, I mean, I think, you know, in the last 6 years for Bissinger specifically, there's been a few chapters and, you know, some things we got right and some things we didn't. But I think that the best way for me to answer that is we really thought we had the opportunity of being a guest and a customer of this brand for longer than we've been an owner. Seeing both sides of the table is a very interesting perspective. And so Chocolate Chocolate Chocolate Company, our parent company, has always been this locally family-owned, you know, American handmade premium chocolate company that strives for really great ingredients and, you know, is very honest and there's very, you know, clean ingredients and we work with sustainable. And, but Bissinger's has been this luxury brand that has literally touched royalty and We've seen that as the consumer and the catalogs were always beautiful and the packaging was beautiful and the stores were off the charts beautiful. And so what I thought to myself was, as we come into Bissinger's, because over, there have been a few ownership changes in the last decade for different reasons, investors getting in and out. And every time there was a new person in the corner office, they had a different viewpoint. And I said, we don't want to be like, let's take chocolate out of the equation. Because it's hard to compare it to yourself. Let's say we're like a hotel chain. There's a really, think of like a really trendy niche boutique in Miami Beach hotel that's $900 a night, or the Ritz-Carlton that's also $900 a night.

Sure.

And you know, like in the Miami Beach one, like the walls are yellow and there's leopard print skin and it's a very unique niche. that the people that love it absolutely love it and think it's the coolest thing in the world. But the people that don't think it's the weirdest thing ever.

Sure.

Where the Ritz-Carlton is just the best experience of everything. The, the sheets are the best, the pillows are the softest, the mattress is amazing, the soap is great. So it, it, they just go 110% on every step of the way. And I, and I said to myself in 2019, we need to make sure Bissinger's is the best in every single thing. So, you know, white glove customer service, premium packaging, Keeping with the brand consistency of phenomenal ingredient sourcing, stay handmade, true to the brand, and then just tell it, then rinse and repeat, just keep doing it. And if we're going to come out with a new product, like we're launching this for Halloween coming up, and we've had, we just kind of teased it yesterday on LinkedIn, this new coffin gift box with 13 pieces and a blood orange caramel skull on top. And so, so what is it? It's the packaging is elevated to the extreme. The photography that was done is best in class. The chocolates, that caramel in there is a caramel from 1899 recipe book. So it, it is authentic Bisinger's. It uses Bisinger's chocolate and it's hand-packed. So for me, and of course we haven't sold it yet, we've sold a different version, but this is the new 2025 version. So we'll, you know, we'll see how it sells. But for me, I believe we exec— we, we took a new product, we innovated it, and we executed on every single one. And so I'd rather it—

by the way, if people come trick-or-treating this Halloween at Dan's house, they're gonna get one of those, by the way. So just—

That, that's possible. Depends on if, if they sell out or not. But, you know, I, I feel like if, whether it succeeds or fails, and I, and of course we very much hope it, it succeeds. I know that we went 110% on every single element of the product. So we did the brand service. And that's how I, how I look at it. So I just slice it, everything away. And so, you know, sometimes, sometimes if you're going, and a lot of times with creative, it's like if you're doing a 30-page catalog and you're doing shoots and layouts, the first 24 pages you put your heart into it and the last 6 you kind of phone it in because you're kind of getting tired. And so I feel like with Bissinger's, you can't phone it in every single item and product and package. I mean, the gift bags now, you should see the gift bags. They're They're gold with foil stamping logo in the, in their white, you know, handles that are tied in knots. And I feel like when you get it right at the gift bag level, everything else has to be perfect.

Wow.

Sure.

All right. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get into the drinks here a little bit. So we had talked, uh, it's been a while. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. And he's a little Wooford on the rocks. I believe that that's what you're having. Uh, I get my good friends at Brown-Forman. They, they don't even know they sponsor my show, but they do for free.

That's great. I like it.

Yeah.

It's a good sponsor.

Jack Daniel's is always behind me, so, uh, I always pay homage to Jack, paid a lot of bills over the many years. But anyway, you're exploring getting in the drinks business. You want to talk about that a little bit? Like how from a chocolate to the drinks business?

Yeah, absolutely. So in 2023, we were talking to the neighbors all the time. We were really getting tight on production space and we had in 2018 kind of the, you know, we got tight on production space then. So we bought the property down the street, doubled our square footage. Then 5 years later, we're just maxed out. So we were really kind of nervous because we're like, we'll see if the neighbors are interested in selling. And it was an older property that was kind of run down. So we're hoping that they were, but then we said, oh my gosh, if they don't, we're going to have to move. And we love the space we're in and we put a lot of money and effort into it. But so we finally convinced them to sell, which was really good. But then they kind of came back and said, oh, by the way, there's no deal to be had. This is what we want. Take it or leave it. So we paid a lot of money for an asbestos old building, but we ended up tearing it down. And as I At our conference room, my brother, sister, and I, we started writing down ideas of if we tear down the property and double the size of the facility and rebuild, what should we do other than chocolate? You know, because we're going to— most of this expansion is for more manufacturing, but other than chocolate, what should we do and what's important? And the theme of it was factory tours. And we do quite a bit of factory tours, more than we ever expected. At the pre-COVID days, we were bringing about 50,000 patrons through a year. And then it stopped for 18 months with COVID and then we've restricted it. And oftentimes we sell out because we restrict it so much. And part of it is with the Bissinger's acquisition, we have so many more people and so much more equipment in the factory since we closed for 18 months in COVID. There's just not enough room anymore to marshal people through as much. So I said, we can really, and given someone a factory tour and showing them how clean and beautiful the facility is and how we handcraft the process and how many steps it takes to make one of our confections, I think is the best marketing we can do. So I said, we need to do more of that. And everybody agreed. And the thought was, how do you make the experience better? How do we keep someone here for an hour and entertain them? So it was chapter 1 was let's add this little cafe, Starbucks-esque style coffee shop so you can come in as your new tourism welcome center. And if you're waiting for a tour for 20, 30 minutes, get a cup of coffee or cold brew or tea. And then it was, you know, okay, so coffee done. Tea done. What else? Uh, and they were just throwing ideas and we're like, what about wine and beer? That's fun. Let's do that. And then I called the, uh, a consultant who referred, or I called a restaurant owner friend of mine who referred me to a consultant about a liquor license. And we were all set for wine and beer and we're going to do this wine wall and craft beer. And, you know, so it's, you know, we were, we said like, we're going to be the beverage central. It's going to go from espresso machine to drip coffee, to iced tea, to Slurpees for the kids and slushie or Slurpee slushies. And then a wine wall for the different wine bottles and craft beer. So every beverage, craft beverage you could think of. And then when I asked the consultant, I said, by the way, to add liquor, what are we talking about? And they said, oh, it's only $200 a year more or some nominal number. I can't remember how much it was because I've heard stories in different cities, like of, you know, liquor license. Sometimes it's cheaper to buy the bar than obtain a new liquor license or if there's a moratorium on. So I just figured that full liquor was going to be an astronomically different number. And once I learned it wasn't, I got off the phone. I walked into my sister's office. I had called my brother and I said, we're building a bar. And everyone was like, that's awesome. Let's do it. No, there was no adult in the room. There should have been. So we, then we, we have like, it just kept transforming and morphing. We started drawing it out. We started sketching and now it's going to be, this hidden speakeasy on the property.

So, well, nothing's finer than a Bissinger's chocolate martini in a can that we can—

I agree.

I think it's, and we actually just finished a deal with an amazing winemaker in Napa Valley. So Bissinger's is going to have its own branded Cabernet from Napa, and then we'll be selling that by the bottle and by the glass. And so we just think like, What else can we do? What else can we do? And it is just, it's, it's a passion. Like I love to drink, you know, responsibly, but I, it's, I love bourbon. I love gin, you know, and I don't, I love craft gin. I love craft bourbon, you know, and it kind of like craft chocolate, you know, and it, to me, this part of the journey has been so much fun. I love learning new things. I've been in chocolate since I've been 5 years old. And so I love doing new innovation with chocolate. But it really pushed us. It hasn't opened yet, so I can't say we're gonna be, we're experts, but the bar cafe side of things has really pushed us to learn and forced us to learn and innovate really quickly.

But you've answered one of my questions is like you're collaborating with a winery.

Yes.

You have the Bissinger's, uh, Cabernet. Are you collaborating, collaborating with a distillery right now? Are you look— working with a distillery?

We haven't, but we've got some good friends. So we do, we just started this collaboration with Castle and Key Distillery where we have 3 products that we do, Castle and Key by Bissinger's collection. So we We do for their 3 spirits, their vodka, their gin, and their bourbon. So we do this bourbon caramel gift box. Uh, we do a chocolate bar. It's the gin and tonic chocolate bar with their gin. And then we just launched a little 5-piece flight, which is the espresso martini, little 5-piece flight. And Castling Key has this really unique bottle top. So the chocolate mold we had designed is actually represented. It looks exactly like their bottle top and it's been, it's launched very well. So we would love to do more. So, and, and I went down with my wife to the distillery in late February, like weeks before the flooding. And I went to, we stopped by Buffalo Trace and then we stopped by Castle and Key and I got to see, it's a beautiful distillery. So we love having friends in the bourbon industry. We want to do more in the bourbon industry. And so I think that if we do something, the short term, we'll talk to Castle and Key, but we have other friends in the bourbon industry as well that we could do some collaborations with. I'd love to do a barrel pick. Um, at least, at least start with the barrel pick and see the success of it. And then maybe do something with the, with the brand.

Adam, is it possible to do a chocolate martini in a can, 100 ml? Is that pretty complicated?

Yes. To both those questions.

Is it shelf stable? I guess it is. Yeah.

Cause it, uh, lest I run us down a rabbit hole and eat up the rest of the time, um, you can make it shelf stable. You have to understand some, some considerations of, of Microbiology and thermodynamics. And, you know, it depends on your ABV and your pH and all sorts of factors, but it's doable.

Those are big words.

Yeah.

I mean, I could have another drink here.

I could, right, exactly. I could, I could run you down the rabbit hole, but instead I'll just say there's lots of complex things to consider, but Sam and I know some fairly smart people and it could definitely be done.

Yeah. I mean, that's, I would love to off this is actually you should talk to Adam a little bit more in detail because—

I'd love to. Oh, and the good news is like, you know, Vodka is like a medicine. So if all that, the above, you just, you know, vodka and sugar kind of solve everything.

So, well, yeah, it certainly, as you know, it solved it for me. So kind of where, where, like currently, where are you at on your journey at this, at this point? Actually, we have a question coming in. Dave, thanks for the question. The alcohol help with shelf time similar to cream, I'd imagine. I don't know what he's saying there.

He's so Dave's, so it gets into a little bit of the question you just asked, Sam. So, so I'll, I'll go a little bit down the rabbit hole. So when you think about a shelf-stable product in any packaging type, but you know, a can or bottle, right?

Yeah.

If it's under, I think it's like it's under 8% or 12%, there's a, there's a threshold where if it's under that percentage, you're going to need an additional treatment of heat or preservatives or something. But if it's over that percentage, the alcohol is doing a lot of the heavy lifting for, because alcohol kills bacteria generally speaking.

Well, that's kind of what I was Yeah. Gently joking at that, you know, alcohol is gonna be our friend in that process.

Well, I'm thinking there's a different branding cuz actually Dave has, uh, Dave, remind me of your, your product that you have up there. I know you were up around, uh, Yada that's coming out of, uh, Puerto Rico, which have some cream ba— cream based, but we could have a chocolate based. Oh, Woody's, Woody's Bourbon Cream and, and Yada. It says we have 2 cream things, but it'd be interesting to do something, you know, Dan, in terms of—

Well, and like going down that route, my brother, we, we're putting in a cold brew machine and we, we got the machine early. So in just our office, yeah, I've been making everybody cold brew, nitro cold brew every day, which is, you know, I feel like we all work faster when you're just nitro cold brewed up. But my, my brother the other day did a 2-ounce pour of bourbon cream and, and then filled the glass up with nitro cold brew. And that is just amazing.

Yeah.

But I'm saying, let's do, let's do the Ben& Jerry's chocolate with vodka. Like it's almost like the naming across an alcohol line and cans. that we bring and bring to life, or maybe it's in a bottle or whatever, but there's a market. Um, Dave, um, Dave, you, Dave bought this brand called Woody's and he can explain it, but, uh, he does, uh, work with one of our partners up in the New Jersey area in the Northeast. But, uh, it's just really interesting to explore that, but not to take you down the rabbit hole. Obviously that's not your, your core business. But it's always, I'm always curious if we can get there.

Yeah. But if we have this, you know, if we have this customer coming in for a glass of wine and I mean, we're going to have it. You know, retail stores and we're going to be able to sell in the store. So I think that we can get there if, you know, if they're buying the wine and they're buying the other things like the coffee that we created, we worked with this local coffee roaster and created our own blend and we did this really detailed cupping. So we're selling the visitor's branded coffee as well. And so I like this, you know, the packaged consumables on these items, if there's a market for it.

Yeah.

So like, see this product right here?

I love that size too. Yeah.

Yeah. So this is, uh, Poor Richard's. Actually, they've rebranded it to Tiger Jane. But see, this is a, this is a coffee brew, coffee liqueur, contains vodka. But how about like Bissinger's by Tiger Jane with the Bissinger's chocolate cold brew?

Well, and that's the thing too. Like we, we know that we know who we are and we know who we're not. So when we're working with a spirit company, I love the co-branded because we'll never be the experts. And alcohol, you know, we just, we can bring in our version, you know. So I love, I love co-branding and collaborating on things like that. Even the winery that we're working with. Yeah. As a custom crush facility, they usually don't put their name on it. I said, no, I want you to, you know, you, you put a heart into this.

Well, as I'm thinking, I'd love to explore it. Like, so, so like you and your candies, like, um, like, uh, we're actually going out to dinner tonight with the founders of a brand called R-Rep. Uh, but Art Rev, it'd be interesting to see all the different brands that are involved in, in the different chocolates. Like, take it a step further than just being the chocolate with the thing. It's actually being your brand and a thing. Like, because people, like, for like LaCourse, people like search out LaCourse and it's like, I got the, it's like, you know, I want saffron, but now I want Ben& Jerry's chocolate.

Coffee. And I think that You know, one of the things that we're doing, Bissinger's has been very strong in certain channels, like the direct-to-consumer world. Bissinger's has a really strong loyal customer base in our online business. It's the online catalog business has been going on since the '70s in our, some of our local retail boutiques, but then there's a whole world that we haven't touched yet. So what we're going to do is I had this, one of the questions you asked earlier that I never answered is what's next and what are you thinking? I either had the smartest idea in the world or the worst idea in the world. And we're in the middle of it right now. So I don't know which way the, the leaves are gonna turn on this one, that I wanted to open more new, really high-end luxury brick-and-mortar stores outta state. And we're doing it.

Wow.

And we're, we're about to announce something and about a big launch coming through, but it will be a very defining moment for the brand because if it works, We're going to go full steam ahead and you'll be able to see, feel, and experience, you know, get into a brick and mortar store and a Bissinger's in a lot of places. If it doesn't work, then we'll just have a couple of new stores in a certain location.

Can you open up the Mall of America? If you're going to open up anywhere, open up at the Mall of America because I got to feed my, my, my chocolate habit. I might be like, apply for a job there, Dan, and I might be working.

Honestly, if you said you'd apply for a job, that's all I need. I'd open a store. If anyone says I'll run the store, You know, I can, I can build it and I can supply the product. I just need people to run 'em. But, um, the good news is that Bissinger's is in every Barnes Noble nationwide that has a cafe in it, which is like 90% of 'em. So, cool. You know, there, there's almost over 600 of 'em. So it's easy to kind of go find Bissinger's these days or easier.

I know where one's in Burnsville. I'm heading there right now after this.

Uh, full fixture, full rack. And we're, we're turning the inventory. We're delivering it fresh. Um, every week deliveries leave our distribution center. So it's a very, It's a well-oiled program.

So, Dan, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, hey, uh, not that you need my praise or applause, but I'm going to give them to you. I think, you know, the, the, what I hear in what you're talking about is like, there's almost a tipping point or like a growth pattern as a brand of, you know, it's, it's one thing to be known for a product, but then when, you know, you do that well enough for long enough, and then you just become known for doing things well. And so if even if that product changes, right. The reputation remains, the song remains the same, right? The story of white glove service, dedication to quality, those things transfer across any industry, right? And so the question that comes from that, and that's, that's the compliment, because I think that's incredibly insightful. And I think it's probably what a lot of brands, if you asked them to think about it, would say they wanted to read. How do you, knowing then that this is where your company's at, I mean, what made you decide to, you mean, you just said it, it's either the best or the worst idea. What made you decide to move forward with brick and mortar stores as opposed to any other idea?

One of the reasons is that if I were to, if you said to me, man, I want to come and experience, like, what's the best asset Bissinger's has? And I don't care the cost or the time, bring me to it. And it would be our flagship retail store.

Okay.

It is, it is, it's iconic. It's, it's been there for 40-something years. And I say, and it's, it's, it's, it's about the perfect chocolate store on the planet. And I can say that Because I didn't create it. I just, you know, I, and it was there before me. We just have made it better.

Sure. But it, cool.

It was truly, it wasn't, and, and I absolutely love it. It's, it is, and it's our flagship retail store at Plaza Frontenac Mall, which is in a beautiful mall. So it's 2 bookends. You've got a Neiman Marcus on one side, a Saks on the other side, and in the middle you've got Tiffany, Louis, Gucci.

Wow.

You know?

Sure.

No, I, and some of their friends. And so, This, this store, it does, it's very, it does very well. It's always very busy. And, and so to me, yeah, it's because people know me forever as Chocolate, Chocolate, Chocolate. But as people know me now as Bissinger's too, they talk about Plaza Frontenac.

Yeah.

I had a, I've heard stories where I've had some customers, like really big customers that have come in to meet with me and then they leave and go to Plaza Frontenac without me. Like they don't even tell me that. And there, there was this one customer telling me one time. That he kind of did a little secret shopping and walked in there and he's kind of looking around and someone says, another customer, he says, oh, have you ever been? Is this your first time at Bissinger's? And the guy lied. He goes, oh yeah, I just kind of walked in. I've never heard of it before. He goes, everything is on me today. And he goes, oh no, no, no, I couldn't do that to you. He goes, no, I want to be responsible for giving you your first taste of Bissinger's. And he calls me to tell me the story and I'm like, Oh my, oh my God. Like, I couldn't even pay for that level of, like, I could, you couldn't pay an actor to make it that good of a story.

Right.

But, but, and so, and so I was, I really thinking about this and like the catalog, we put so much love and heart into the catalog and that would almost be the second best thing in my opinion. But, you know, a website, I, which I love our website and it, it functions really well, but it's not, you know, the best thing is this store. And we have other, another location that, you know, we really love too, but But in my heart of hearts, I said, we need to do more of these because this is, this is the brand and everything about it. We need to be in that same type of location. We need to, you know, the, the manager and assistant manager and team there is phenomenal. We need to spread their charisma to the new staff that will be coming on board and wearing that Bissinger's apron.

Yeah.

We needed to merchandise that way. And there's some unique attributes about how it merchandises and the type of candy case that are different from a typical chocolate store, but I, but I just felt that. And, and because of that, direct-to-consumer and wholesale grows because of that, is brand awareness. And so that to me is the— and I say this because I, I studied the brand and I go to our stores and it's, and like I said, you know, this is personal for me. It's a big— And so that, and that really is the— so it's not like a financial thing. It's not a business thing. I mean, that store does very well, but Could we do, you know, is there lower hanging fruit that can be better? Sure. But to me, it's, I mean, we always say we do the hard thing first and brick and mortar growth out of state is hard. So I feel like if it's difficult and people say it's a bad idea, we should 100% do it. Always run in the opposite direction.

No, that's great advice. That's going to be a little, uh, that's going to be the 60-second, uh, little clip that we're going to post is always run the opposite direction. If they say don't do it, do it, which is brilliant in a lot of ways. Well, look, we always ask every founder, every family member, person running the business, as the chocolate head chocolatier, chocolate chief chocolate officer, what's the difference between success and failure? We're curious. We ask everybody this question.

That's a great question. We've had a lot of failures that have made us much stronger and better at what we do. I think, I think a level of failure is when we disappoint people, when we go off, when we go off course, it's sometimes good to go off course to Find a different channel. But when we go off course and lose trust and lose our basis, to me, that's failure. You know, we've lost, you know, you lose customers. Business is business. You lose customers, you gain customers. But when you lose customers because of your own doing intentionally, that, that to me hurts. And I mean, I, I go to the extent where, and if you leave a review on our website, I read it. I mean, I go, you know, I, I try to look at data as a, as the best source of knowledge. And so I go through every one of those things and like, for example, this, this new Gold Box collection that I showed you is about to launch and we've spent a lot of time and I love this. There's going to be someone that does not like it because they just don't like the color gold. I don't know.

Yeah.

There's going to be people that do like it because I think it, you know, it's a beautiful box and the way it presents. And, and what we need to do is is take that, because this is going to be a pretty major change in our packaging coming soon. We need to take the data and see if the, whatever, whatever the majority rule is, is going to be the right answer.

Well, so I need a chocolate identifier. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like, it's like, you know, it's like something, life is like a box of chocolate.

That's kind of what I was mentioning earlier, this little gold insert, when you open it up, actually is the product key now. So it's Okay. That will be in there. You know, that's like our biggest complaint because like human error, like, you know, every 1 in 500 boxes or 1 in 1,000, just the person forgets to put it in. And then like that person calls like, I need a product key. And we're like, we just apologize, you know? But no, it's—

Well, I don't want the coconut and I always get the coconut.

You know, interesting thing. So coconut just got delisted as a tree nut allergen. So it did. Coconut was always listed as a tree nut allergy and it just happened about, I don't know, 6 weeks ago. So it kind of, it's coconut is a polarizing flavor. Mint is a polarizing flavor. Maple is a polarizing flavor. Those 3 are the kind of the 3 that I can think of. They're polarizing so much as that, like black licorice is another polarizing flavor. You are either pro coconut and you don't want anything else, or you say just what you said, like, don't do that to me ever again. There's really no middle coconut fan and, oh, it's the same with mint black licorice. And so we've been pulling coconut out over the years, but, um, but it's funny now it's easier to pack a box with coconut cuz of the allergy.

Which is funny cuz as you say that, I'm like, you can ship Sam's unwanted coconut to me cuz I love that.

Exactly. Exactly. And the same with maple, but like, but strawberry, it may not be your favorite flavor, but if we do it well, you'll enjoy it. And if we do it poorly, you won't enjoy it, but it will be that, that opinion will become How, how, you know, how quality is that strawberry confection? But like, if you don't like maple, you're gonna just hate it no matter what. But if you love maple, you're gonna praise us as the finest maple purveyors on the planet.

You hit the, you hit the nail on the head with the, uh, the black licorice too. I have, I have buddies that, you know, will buy, I mean, my dad's one of 'em. He'll buy bags of it at a time and I'm like, that's disgusting. Don't put that in your face. Yeah.

It's, it's not, uh, you know, I'm not a fan. There used to be a, when we bought the company, we were going through and trying to like, what's, you know, what are we missing? What are we doing wrong?

What, what can we fix right away?

and really make people happy. And there was this old French black licorice that Bissinger's used to make, and it was not an easy product to manufacture, never made money on it. And so they discontinued a long time ago and it takes like weeks to make it. Like it has to sit there and age for weeks. And so we had a lot of requests for this, the French black licorice. And I was like, and I had it a long time ago, but I didn't think it was special then. So I was like, really? So I said, well, how about this?

Let's compromise.

And make a black licorice caramel, which I did a test batch a long time ago and covered in chocolate. And so we made it and we sold out the first batch in weeks. And then I made the second batch and I couldn't give it away. You know, it was just one of those things. So I was, but people would ask me like, is there anything you don't like that you make? And I would always be like, oh yeah, I hate the black licorice caramel. But now that we have discontinued it, there's not a single product that we make that I don't like.

I think that's the fun in chocolate. You know, Dan, just to wrap up in the last remaining minutes. I want to give you the opportunity, maybe some things that you didn't talk about that you would like to share with the audience today about your company, about you, about chocolates people should consider. Really just kind of open up to things that you might want to convey to everybody. And then I'll hand it over to Adam and he has some closing thoughts and we'll wrap it up for the day.

That's a, yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the things I was, I was thinking about the other day really hard about, you know, chocolate and what I do and what do I like to do? You know, as you, as you grow and grow and grow, you know, we thought that about 5 or 6 years ago, it was right before Visagers, that we should get into, you know, automation's coming big and we should get into some higher volume production. And, and with that, and this, like a production line that runs slow to an automated one, it's not double the cost, it's about 5 times the cost.

Wow.

So some of these leaps are very expensive. And so we had some opportunities in the contract manufacturing and co-packing world to to get into this. And so we, we did it. We put the, the line, the line, the new line came in. Um, it was the 3rd line that we bought from Europe and it was instead of half a million dollars, it was $2 million. And we, we had some big co-packing jobs that came on board, you know, at the same time. And there, there were days we were running 60, 70, 80, 100,000 pieces a shift, um, with very few human beings. And, uh, on paper you would think, wow, All of, you know, decades of working hard and, you know, grinding and handmaking chocolates, they finally got into the real automated money-making. Like they, they went to the next chapter and it, and, and, you know, and everything's gonna pay off. And it was the only time I, in the business, I was unhappy.

Huh.

Weird. And so I was talking to some of the, you know, longtime standing employees of the, and they were kind of getting a little bit more frustrated, more frustrated with the morale was a little bit suffering. And I, I kind of took a step back and I said like, why are, why do we hate this? You know? And so, and then, but then you couldn't, you know, I had to pay for this machine.

So I couldn't, yeah, you just laid out $2 million.

So, but you know, we, we did it for a few years and we were able to fast-track, you know, we had a 5-year loan on it. We were able to fast-track in 3 and pay it off because we didn't just take extra profits. We just, anything that went into it, we You know, and we own it, you know, free and clear. And then COVID happened and some of these, you know, big contract partners paused for a while and then slowed down. And so then we said, you know what, we're just gonna completely dissolve that division of the company. We're gonna not go contract anymore. We're gonna stop. And, and we still own the line and we use it if we want to go run a flow-wrapped peanut butter bar.

So you went back to hand-making chocolate?

We went back to hand— yeah, we went back to the style that I learned at 12 years old. And my friends in the industry were like, what are you, an idiot? Like, they looked at me like you had the sun and you, you know, poured cold water on yourself. Like, you—

You know what though? I think I would equate you to a Swiss watch.

Yes. Well, I am a, I have a very unhealthy addiction to Swiss watches. So I'm like, yeah, I think if I have one, it's not for classic cars. It's not, it's, it's, it's, I'm a very un— I'm actually restoring my, my grandfather's 1960 Omega watch right now. And I, I cannot wait.

Are you, you have a 1960 Omega? I got it.

Yeah.

Send me a text, that to me, Dan. I will. So I'm a, I, I like watches too. So I have a, I have a Rolex from, uh, the early '80s. It's a Submariner.

I just got a 2000. Oh, I love Submariners. I just got a, uh, a Yacht-Master from, it was a 2004, which is the year I graduated high school. And the thing just runs like it's brand new.

Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. We have to, so, so, but speaking like, I, I'm equating, I've been thinking the whole time Rolex.

Yeah.

And then what you just described is like when you're eating this piece of candy, it's handmade.

It takes a lot to make it. It's a team of sometimes 20 people.

To make a piece of candy?

One piece of candy. And, and so people are like, that's crazy. Well, there's 2 candy makers in the kitchen. So let's just go on the journey of a caramel. 2 candy makers in the kitchen pouring the ingredients in, lifting that copper kettle, Pouring it onto the table, 2 people cutting the caramel. So running it through a cutting machine, that part we automated because cutting caramel is a pain.

Right.

So we're at 4 right now, covering it in chocolate, minimum of 3. So now it brings us up to 7, minimum of a quality supervisor, 8. So now we have to get it into a box. The boxing time, 2 or 3 people, you know, in the packing department, then the packing department, that box, all those boxes you got were shrink-wrapped. That's a team of 3. So I was at 8, then I added 2, 10, I'm at 13. But 13 people deep and we haven't even got it to you. You know, we have to get it to our distribution center. It has to go on a truck with our truck drivers. It has to pack into a box, the warehouse. The warehouse guy then gives it to the team that loads it onto the UPS trucks. So that's 14, that's 16 people. So I was close when I said 16 people to make a caramel. Now that assortment that you, that takes multiple lines and multiple days and multiple teams. And so that could be— It could be 50. And to us, it's the— oh, black licorice jelly beans. Yeah, I do love the jelly beans. But, uh, um, it, it, to me, I, I love— if you come on a factory tour, I could show you every step of the way, and I know every single person's name that's doing it and decorating it and striping it and drizzling it.

Wow.

And it's just, to me, it's the coolest thing in the world. People usually, as I go through the whole tour, their head's spinning at the end because it's You know, the product goes from there to there, to there, to there. And it's just normal for me.

I'm so glad that we got to this part of the story because Adam knows this about myself and Alicia Vargo is our 2 whys is to put people to work and do right by brands. And what you just described is you, you actually went the opposite way, which you described earlier too, than what everybody tells you to do. Everybody's going to say automate your business. Adam's going to tell you to automate your business, you know, the whole bit. Sorry, Adam.

But, uh, you're not wrong.

But the point is, is that you're making it work for you and your business. You know, I don't know how scalable that is because you're gonna just have to hire more people, which is, uh, great.

Hire people. I, and, and, you know, I was really starting to get nervous about like, is this the right track? And I listened, you know, my obsession with podcasts. I listened to a podcast on Hermès and they are the same way. They won't automate anything. And so they have a school to teach their, you know, craftspeople now. And I feel like, Well, if they could pull it off, I could do it. And they're a billion-dollar company. I'm bazillion years away from that. So I felt like if someone else can do it, there's someone else out there that is as crazy as me. And I felt a little bit reprieve in that. But like that blue box that you saw, we hand stamp a wax seal. There's no one in the industry that thinks that's a smart idea, but the consumer thinks it's the most beautiful thing. I mean, you could see there was hot gold wax poured on that box, and then we stamp, we stamped it. And that, you know, the experience that you probably had opening and cutting that, you probably remember that.

Well, yeah, we, we, I didn't even know what it was. I was, I forgot that you were sending me to Chaka and Susan's like, you know what I thought it was? I thought it was a gift for her. Right. It was her birthday.

That's around—

Another Amazon box showed up at the house.

It was around March. Right. So I thought, I thought it was like a birthday gift. I'm like, oh yeah, my partner sent it to you or whatever. Then I kind of open up, I'm like, oh no, that's my friend Dan. The whole bit. This is just really high quality, Dan. Everything about this, this is so awesome. Um, you know, I wanna, you know, maybe just give it to— I'll, I'll say my little— I'll say my comments and then I'll give it over to you, Adam. But everything that we talked about today is just so awesome. I, I mean, I, again, I might— the experience of the 3 boxes that you sent, where was this? It was just like this, it was like this whole experience that I went through. In 45 minutes, might I add, but, uh, it was, it was pretty awesome. And Susan enjoyed a couple pieces. I shared a couple with my wife, but—

How kind of you.

I very much appreciate you sharing your journey. More importantly, our friendship. I would love to, you know, continue that on.

Same.

I'm sorry it took so long. I know I got sick. I think you got sick.

Yeah.

But we finally pulled this off.

Well, it makes it extra special. I mean, I feel like, you know, I was talking to Dana today. I said, you know, we're having this podcast today. It's so exciting. So I know, I think it, Adds, adds to it.

Yeah. And I'll, I'll hand it over to Adam and maybe you have a closing thought and we'll just wrap up. I'll ask the two of you to remain on the line for a few minutes and then we'll end.

Yeah.

Adam.

Um, I mean, to echo Sam's point, Dan, uh, pleasure to meet you. Really enjoyed the conversation. Love the insights. I mean, I think, you know, the, Sam called it out, some of the soundbites of like, you know, as a new brand thinking, you know, what you said about the retail stores, thinking through like, what's the best way to, to Make people understand what we're all about and, and doubling down on whatever that thing is.

Right.

I think, I think so many brands forget to ask themselves that question or they just don't know to ask it in the early days. Right. Maybe they're new at this. Um, so I think it's a highly impactful question to, to let kind of be your North Star. I also think, you know, for as much as Sam's right, like I am typically the, the, uh, how can we drive efficiency? And usually that is through automation, whether it's softwares or equipment or whatever. I have said on this podcast to other people, I don't care how you do it, but if you're going to take longer and it's going to be more manual, you damn well better tell a phenomenal story. And I think you have echoed that point as well, that you guys are staying true to telling that story and making people feel the connection to everything that you're doing with such intent and focus. It's just, it's fun to hear. It's super fun to hear about.

Dr. Abel was on the certificate of the last founder of Business Juris. It was meant to be.

I'm not one to like, I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but this one was the out-of-body experience That shocked me. I was just, I felt that that day, like if there was a reason to do this, we figured it out. And it was my dad's grandfather, it was my great-grandma. He knew the person. I mean, just, it was crazy. But I will say, Adam, you had mentioned one thing is even though the plant is extremely handmade and artisanal and the product runs slow on purpose, our tech stack is amazing.

Okay.

So my team is using the latest and greatest enterprise ERP system, e-commerce system. And because of that, we are able to look at data in real time. And so I'm with you on that. And that is something I truly believe in.

That's awesome. Oh, Dan, thank you very much. Adam, thank you very much. Remain on the line. Thanks everybody for joining us on this Thirsty Thursday. Sorry, Jesse, I stole your name, but it's still yours if you happen to watch this podcast. But thanks everybody for joining us and have a beautiful week.