The Science Behind Beauty: Dr. Ebru's Insights

Good afternoon, everybody. We got myself, Sam, and Dr. Ebru Karpozolo. Ah, gold star. Here today on Drink Up, I'm in Chicago. As you can tell, my background is different. Sam and Dr. Ebru are both either dealing with getting over you know an illness based on children and all the things they carry this time of year or vaccines. So if you hear us coughing, sneezing, you know see me moving around, that's why. But welcome. We're happy to have you midweek. Let's see. Give a shout out to our sponsors and then we'll get into it. So obviously Sam and Alicia over at is it still Bev Assets or we is it a new name now?

No, that's Bev Assets. That's just our joint venture with Frontline Beverages.

Perfect. Okay. So yeah, for Frontline. So Sam and Alicia at Bev Assets and Frontline, myself and Alias Advising, Ryan Halliman and On the Rocks Advisors, Jay Williams and Freebird. I think that's everybody. And there's our obligatory Freebird shot. There we go.

Yeah. He just sponsored NASCAR today, man.

He did just sponsor NASCAR today. Yeah. Right. Congratulations, Jay. So Dr. Ebru, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me. It's fun. It's a lot of fun.

I got my COVID shot and my pneumonia shot so that I could get coached by Dr. Ebru today.

Yeah. Bring it on.

I'm like, I woke up with a cough in the middle of the night. I'm like, I think I gave myself COVID and she told me it's perfectly normal. So I feel much better. So by having this conversation, so thank you so much for joining us today. We're both, Adam and I are excited and getting into it. And again, how we roll is just raw, real, and natural. That's how we go.

Beautiful. Well, so Dr. Ebru, we were talking before we went live and it's as good a place to start as any about your, your, the, what am I trying to say? The inspiration for you getting into immunology, but share it, share it with folks now that we're live.

Sure. Well, we had a little chat before we got online, guys. So, uh, I roasted Adam a little bit about not knowing the movie of Outbreak from the '80s. And if Dustin Hoffman is listening, I really love him. He's amazing. But I was in undergrad and, you know, going through all the possibilities. Should I go into genetics? Should I go into this? And this movie came out and I just went and saw it. I was like, oh my God, this is what I want to do. I want to do immunology because it's so cool. Because it's the answer to everything when you think about it. When you get sick, it's your immune system that saves you from death, to be honest.

So that's why I have the cough right now.

And this is working, you know, your personal army trying to defeat whatever you're going through, but it's really our army. And the more I got into it, the more I loved it because it's so much fun. And every year during my PhD and still every year something new comes up and it's just fascinating. You know, it's, it's a result for like, it's the culprit. It's the behind autoimmune diseases. It regulates cancer. It's important. important in transplantation. It's important in everything, you know? So that's why I just loved it.

Great. Now you, so we were talking and it's been a while because we were scheduled and we had to cancel because I think something came up or an illness or something. I got flu.

I got flu again because thanks to my kid, she carries the plague from the school.

That's why, that's why I got my vaccines, by the way, because I got a 5-year-old. a 3-year-old grandchild and a new grandchild coming in and they just bring, like, they bring all kinds of stuff, unknown diseases inside our house.

Yeah. I mean, I was really bad. I got bronchitis and everything and I went and I did the test and the test for COVID, flu, any other bacteria came negative. So I'm like, great, my kid is mutating everything that is not in any of the tests. Awesome. You know?

That's unbelievable. So, so, um, tell us a little bit about your journey. Sure. You did a bit just now, but you have a product, a skincare product.

Yes. Yes.

Tell us a little bit about this. Get into that a little bit. And so from, is it, is it related to what you do or is it unrelated or kind of anything?

It's very related actually. Okay. So how I started was, is a personal journey because when I was doing my PhD, I was so stressed, overworked, you know, Some days I didn't even sleep, slept in the lab because of the experiments. And I was breaking out nonstop. And when you are a PhD student, you have a very tiny amount of money you can spend on skincare, you know? And still I went to town and got that minty green skincare, you know, Clinique. And that was the thing for acne and all that back then. And went there and I used it. And my husband was like, one day it's like, Uh, you should look at the mirror. And I'm like, what's going on? Your skin looks gray. I'm not kidding you. I looked gray, like grayish. And I was like freaking out. I called my mom, mom, my mom. Uh, she's a pathologist oncologist. My dad was a surgeon and I called them and we can't have video back, back then. This is like 2000s, but I'm freaking out. And she's like, what did you use? So She told me, yeah, she was like, what did you do? I was like, okay.

Right.

So we stopped everything. But that was the time when I really got mad because we have all this research. Even back then we had this research and it was, it is still publicly available on PubMed. Anybody can go there and read any of the scientific publications. And when it comes to this and these big companies, beauty companies, Spending all this, like making us spend all this money for a crappy, crappy product. I got mad. I really got mad. And that was, I was like, I can sequence DNA. I can do this so I can learn cosmetic chemistry. So I started learning cosmetic chemistry, how ingredients work together. Some of them work against each other, how you can pack a lot of ingredients in one product without destroying the stability. So I started learning that and started creating that. And during that time, my dad got cancer and he wanted a cream. You know, when you're a cancer patient, your skin goes really dry and, you know, fragile. So you have to use creams and whatnot. So he asked me to get Eucerin. So I took it back. He put it on and boy, did he turn red and he's yelling at me. And he was a surgeon. He passed away 5 years ago. If you know anything about surgeons, they're hard. They are hard, hard people. They don't like anything. They're very, they're very detailed. I love them. So he was mad at me. He's like, you wrote me the wrong thing. And I'm looking at the ingredients. It's the exact same thing. However, when big companies, they get a lot of ingredients and they don't have to look at the purity of each ingredient that comes in because they have to produce everything really fast, or how, if it's really the same lot. So I gave my dad my own cream and an hour later he called me and he showed me his arm and all that redness was gone. And then he said, what are you doing? You know, sit down and tell me that. And I told him the science. I told him what I was up to and all that. And he was like, so you were doing PhD and doing this at the same time? I was like, yeah. And he went, he done, he went like this. You know what, kid? You're doing something good here. You need to share the science. It's bringing the science from the lab to the people. That's it. So that's how we founded Avicenna. Completely bootstrapped, no VC money because I didn't want it because VC, when a VC comes in, they can, before it's established, a company established, they can say, oh, let's do everything pink. The cream's in pink. Because it's going to sell better. Science gets diluted. So that was the journey from, you know, hardcore immunology lab to the beauty world.

And do you have a picture you can share of the product?

I can. Yeah.

I don't have it here.

Well, you can, but we have it on the website.

You want to share your, you can actually share the screen. I can on the bottom. Yeah. So it says, you said leave. It says there's a share button. I was gonna say if, uh, I've tried this before when we go live, we always, I always confuse people when I try to do it.

Okay. Uh, let me, let me see. So how do I share here?

Well, right, Jesse, where it says the—

I tell you what, Sam, I'll do it cuz I've got it pulled up. I've got the website pulled up. Yeah, that would be great. So I'll, I'll, I'll drive and then you, you tell me where to click.

Okay. I can put, do we have a chat here? I can put it in the chat.

Gimme one second. So I'm gonna split this off into another window.

While he's going through that, um, I'm gonna, a couple questions while we bring it up.

Sure.

So. I'll go through the questions we talked about. So we talked about this journey, right, that you're on. You know, and what's the moment in your journey that most people don't see but shaped everything that came after? I can kind of answer that question because it sounds like your dad played an impact in that.

He was, he was, he was amazing. You would, you would love him. He was, I don't know how to put it. He's from that Frank Sinatra era. Where they saw everything.

That's amazing.

They had to go through everything. And being a surgeon, he didn't round up words and he would tell you if I was BSing. And when he said, this looks like you're doing something good, kid, you know, that's the word. You're doing something good here, kid. Go do it. And, you know, that, that was the main point. I was like, huh, he gave me his blessing. You know, because both of them being MDs and researcher MDs.

Yeah.

They're my harshest color critic up to today.

Yeah.

You know, like every time, I mean, every experiment he would go, did you do this? Did you think about this? I'm like, Dad, come on.

He, he shaped the, he shaped you in that decision to come out with this, uh, yes, several products, or is it a product?

Well, we have several products. We have 6. skincare products. And we also came up with a very cutting-edge LED light device that has also radio frequency, ultrasound, and, um, EMS. And you can use it on the face and the body because I love multitasking products. They save you money and it's easier. So with the 6 products, we Focus on keeping it less is more, but when less is more, your less should be more, which means it should be a multitasking product because today nobody has the time to put 5 different creams for 5 different problems. So that's why, that's how I formulated these products to be multitasking, you know? And you can use it during the day. You can use it at night. You can use, you know, mails.

Do you order your products direct or do you go through Amazon or all of the above?

We were at Amazon. However, we focused to stay on the website. We still have a, you know, placeholder on Amazon. We were in Saks. We were in Neiman Marcus, but I don't know if you heard, Saks have claimed Chapter 11. Today. Yeah. So we, we got out before and we were one of the lucky few who was also got paid. So, man, there's 10,000 vendors waiting to be paid.

All right. So let's, let's, so I'm gonna kind of pivot here a little bit. Uh, so I'm gonna get personal because you're a founder, right? Um, do you, do you do this full-time, your company? Are you still practicing? Um, Medicine or a combination of both?

Well, I'm a researcher, so I still research and I am in control of full control of the company. Okay. Because of the scientific narrative, because I wanna keep it pure. And anything you see on the website, there is a site that called Dr. Notes. I write also scientific articles there with scientific references.

Can you drill on that, Adam? The, the, the notes are like of the, the 3 bars. To the right there, probably where they're at.

Yeah. If you go there, meet Dr. Ebru, go under there and it should be there. Yeah. Dr. Notes.

Interesting. So if you're looking for— Yeah.

If you click on the salmon sperm, that's the latest article I wrote. So you can see all the figures and everything and references.

Really? For real? Salmon sperm? Like it's for real? Like it's—

Well, this is Aquarium Beauty. Ingredient, and it is good when the dermatologists use it in office for injections. However, now Korean beauty is putting it into creams, but it won't work because it's huge. It's 150 kilodaltons, and there's a level, like anything above 50 daltons, nothing can get into the skin. So it's too big. It sits on the cell. On the skin. So, right, started writing this, it turned into a huge article. So anytime you have a question, shoot an email, you'll get an article like this.

So, so looking at your website and you can probably just click off now, Adam. So we need to go back on the screen, but like you didn't just arrive one day with products. Like what was your journey? Was this hard to get where you're at? Like, it wasn't hard to take you to, like, you have this like Like, you're, you're direct-to-consumer business, I'm assuming. How many years did it take you to get where you're at?

Well, since we were bootstrapping, it took a long time because here's the thing. So, uh, if you do not know what you're doing, you will lose a lot of money, right? This is same in science. This is same in business. So you end up bootstrapping and learning a lot of stuff. So I, I learned cosmetic chemistry. I know how to make creams and serums and everything. I just need to see it and, you know, you just tell me the texture and tell me what you want and I can make it. Not a problem. But that doesn't finish with that, you know, like then there is a website, then there is packaging, then there is pictures, and then there is claims and text. And I had to learn it all. Like that website you saw, I coded it from start to finish.

Wow.

Yeah. And the videos and everything and pictures, all that. Because I got mad. There, I was looking for web designers and they were giving all these, oh, for $50,000 I can do this. And I'm like drawing the pictures, like I'm showing the pictures, right? I was like, I want this and they don't understand it. And then I started doing it on Photoshop and Illustrator. I was like, look, I want this. I want this. I want this. I want this.

You know, it's a really important message you're sharing here. If I hear what you're saying.

Yeah. So I had to learn.

I learned everything. You have to be a jack of all trades. Some people just like show up and they think it's magically going to happen for them. Right. And what you're saying, which I hear you saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that in order to get it done, you had to lean in and you had to be the sweeper, the website developer. You know, you have to do a jack of all trades.

You got to know what's going behind. You can't be a pretty lady and have a skincare brand from a, you know, from a lab, you know, contract manufacturer. If you don't know what is in there and something goes wrong with a customer, how are you going to answer it? You know, or your web designer, God forbid, dies, your IT person dies and you're stuck with a website. What are you going to do about it?

Excuse me for coughing. Have you woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat? Going, what's going to happen next? Have you woke up worried? Like, oh my gosh, what's going on? What's next? Like, what's up? Like, it's not like all perfect, right?

Yeah, it's not all perfect. But instead of freaking out, what you do is sit down, go through the panicking mode, and that panic mode is not good, by the way. You go like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And then you sit down and say, okay, this is a, this is not a problem. This is a challenge. We can tackle this. What is next? And you learn from it and then you move on to the next challenge and the next challenge. You know, everything is a challenge. When you package it to your ego that way, then it becomes less scary.

Yeah.

And then when I completely freak out, I tell my husband, you need to come down here and calm me down because I'm freaking out. You're just going to come here and tell me it's going to be fine, honey, but you can't do that too condescending. Or gimme ice cream. No.

Yeah. That's amazing. So, but what keeps you going? Me. You.

I keep me going and that's the thing. So if as a founder, or even if when you're doing your PhD and you know, if anybody's hearing this, you should not, if there is anything I learned from this industry and in academia, you should not compare yourself to anybody. Everybody walks a different path. Everybody—

Everybody's on LinkedIn. Like they're winning big every day in LinkedIn. It's like, oh God, I gotta go win.

I know.

Did I stop looking? I'm like, seriously? And I know some of them, I'm like—

I just did $100 million, my 6th company. I 10x'd it.

That's the thing, right? You go on Facebook, everybody's like expert and everybody's earning 8 figures. And I'm like, well, your t-shirt doesn't say 8 figures, hon. You know, your background. But that's the thing. You keep yourself going. You are your only competitor to do better. And some days you just sit down and do nothing. That's it.

So you obviously are very well thought out in what you do. Like what, what are the, what is the habit? What is it that you do every day that makes a difference in what you do? Like that, that habit that is just, you're very consistent. Your message is very clear. This is the 3rd time I've talked to you. So I'm very clear what you're doing. So What is that habit? What is it?

Well, first you start with coffee, lots of coffee, you know, but what it is, is, you know, I sound like I'm all there, right? I'm like, I know it all. No, no, I don't know it all. I try, I try every day. I fail every day. I fail. Like my successes are less than my failures. I fail a lot.

Oh, you got to my other question. Let's get into it. What's the difference between success and failure?

The only way I do all day to get something done, and I go into the lazy mode, I don't want to do anything. Like I have this voice inside of me and it says, get up and do it. Just get up and do it today. Otherwise it's going to be tomorrow. So you got to do it today. Get up. You can do it. And there is that voice. I don't know if that may, I made that voice, you know, but it works. It pushes me.

Yeah. I mean, we use the word manifesting in our company, you know, and it's funny. You'll have like one call will be, it'll roll really suck. And then 2 hours later you get the great call and it's really, really good. So it's just, you don't know, like, you know, I don't wanna sound like Forrest Gump, but it's like a box of chocolate. You don't know what you're gonna get each day and the whole bit. But I, I, I love that. Adam, you, I know you have to come across with some questions here.

You're muted. Hey, thank you both for letting me step away. As I said, I'm at production. So this is, you know, the mystery liquid that shall remain nameless tastes and looks wonderful and is in spec, but that's what I just had to step away for. No, I mean, I think, hey, just in general, right? Like, There's not a question that comes with this, just a comment. I talked to a lot of brand owners as, you know, we all do, or people that are looking to do something, but I loved your comment about, you know, I had to learn how to do this and I had to learn how to do that because nothing, few things drive me up a wall more than when I talk to somebody and they ask me a question and I'm like, all right, like I'm going to give you the answer, but also I want to educate you on the why of how that answer came to be. And it doesn't happen very often, but every now and again, I'll get somebody going, no, no, no, I don't want the education. I just want the answer. That floors me constantly. Cause I'm like, well, all right. Like what happens if I'm not here tomorrow? You're screwed. Right. But no, I, yeah, I love the points you're making. I think it's brilliant. So the question that comes of that is what's maybe, you know, as you're teaching yourself these new things and learning to do things and You know, getting knocked down and getting back up. Like what's something that maybe you thought to be true previously that then, you know, you maybe failed or you learned something and now you're like, oh, I was so incredibly wrong before. Does that make sense?

Well, because this is a human business, right? You deal with a lot of humans and they, I'm a little naive about that. I love teaching people, you know, like if you wanna learn something, like if you come tomorrow and say, teach me immunology, I'll be like, Okay, here's the book. We're starting. I would love to share because this knowledge doesn't belong to me. It belongs to everybody. And if I can teach it to someone, right, it's great. However, people always surprise me because you think that everything is going great. You have a good human in front of you and that human can change. So I was naive before. I'm still naive, I think sometimes, but that was the thing that I have to learn every time. Every time. And I don't wanna be jaded. I'm trying not to be jaded, you know?

Sure.

But it's hard. It's hard, you know, like trying to be like, okay, what if this person doesn't see? Because you can come across with a person who looks like Grinch, you know, with the bitch face. I think they call it the bitch face, right? But it could be the best person. But then you can come across with another person who looks like the angel herself, but she could be evil. You don't know.

Totally.

So you learn not to get your guard too much down, But if you get disappointed by a human, you can wallow for a day and think, hmm, and then let it go.

Let it go.

I think that was one of the things I learned in this business. If something worries you today, ask yourself this question: is it gonna piss me off, or am I gonna be sad about this or worried about this in 3 years or 5 years?

Yeah.

And if the answer is no, throw it out the window.

I love it. I love it. I mean, I was going through a Deal yesterday, client was upset. I'm not going to say it. And they're like, we're not going to pay you. I'm like sitting there typing things on my keyboard. And then I just stepped back and said, you know what? I'm just going to just walk away from this and just go do some deep thinking. And then I went to my phone and called a friend of mine that was involved with the client. And we just talked it through and today came and we were able to resolve it.

Yeah.

And we got on with the client. We got on the same page and we reset. And it was, it was great. It was oftentimes we let people upset us. I've had people make comments and it's like, like this, throw it out with the trash because it doesn't matter. You know, so that's really powerful what you shared. I mean, it really resonates with me.

Well, and I think the, the, you know, again, the, the commentary I'll add is, and I'm sure this happens to both of you too, is it's something I have to remind myself of, of, for example, working in beverage, I'll talk to people who maybe work in food, right? So, so still experts in their own field and, or highly experienced people in their own field, but, you know, they might come in and, and say something like, um, a HACCP protocol or an SQF certification, or they'll use terminology like that that would indicate, it's indicative to me like, oh, okay, like, you know a little bit, right? But then I might say something like dissolved oxygen or the can liner or whatever weird little nugget of information that they've never heard of before, right? And so to your point, it's A, how people look. It's also how they sound because somebody might say something to me that makes me think, oh, okay, they know everything I know, we're good. And I need to remind myself to dig a little deeper. Right. He's talking about me, by the way. Right.

Because I try to come across like an expert in operations.

Exactly. Right. Or, you know, they might ask a question that seems incredibly naive or amateur. And then I realize like, oh, they do know a lot. They're truly just trying to be creative in terms of solutions and problems and that kind of thing. So, um, no, I think it's a phenomenal point. Um, so within the framework of your business now, right? Like you've got, I mean, we just added up, right? Like you've got these, these blog posts and all this research that you're sharing with people. You've got products, you've got equipment. Right. What's the thing that, that makes a day difficult now? Is it supply chain problems? Is it research problems? I mean, what's the, the hard part of your day now?

Research is not hard. I mean, that's the thing I love. It's the supply and the uncertainties of today. And of course that affects us getting the stuff we want to get at the level we want to get at the price we want to get.

Yeah.

Uh, impacts the end product, you know, the COGS and everything. Um, we haven't changed the prices since 2020, by the way, and I'm trying to keep it that way. Um, because we're using very high-end, very effective ingredients and there's a cost to it. However, there's really, really cheap products out there, very cheap products, and people are drawn to it because of economical reasons. I completely get that. So I think that is the part. You know, when you are fighting against the big bosses and the big bucks where they're offering literally crap, where you are offering the science and the ingredients, but you don't have those marketing dollars. I think that's just 2 hard things, you know?

Sure.

And I think the 3rd hard part is, um, explaining the science, how science of immunology Can be in skincare because before me, nobody talked about this. Nearly nobody.

Sure.

And after me, a couple years later, now there's 3, 4 companies trying to get on the inflammaging thing. And I'm like, none of you are immunologists. You don't know what you're talking about.

Well, so, so how do people find you? I don't know. Adam, do you wanna type it in or I can type it in?

Sure.

How do they find you?

I'll type it in. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They can find us from Avisina Instagram. Usually I'm there answering people and on our website.

We're on YouTube. What's your URL for your website?

Huh?

What's your URL? We're going to flash it on the screen.

I got it, Sam.

He's got it.

I'll put it in the chat. I'll put it in the chat and the studio chat. So there we go.

It's in the studio chat.

Yeah, avisina.com. So you can email from there or just send a DM from Instagram. It comes to me or drops to Nina and I love answering questions, any question, you know, because I don't want people to spend their money on crappy products. Nobody's, nobody is rich enough to buy cheap products and bad products, you know? So yeah.

Yeah. I mean, again, I think it's one of those where like, and Sam and I go through this both in stuff as straightforward as, as, you know, spirits, you know, where it's, it's kind of one product in one bottle to stuff like food or, you know, protein beverages or functional beverages that maybe have a little bit more to them where I tell brand owners all the time, Right? Like the, the burden of proof. Oh, you're good, Sam. On, you know, if you've got, uh, uh, you know, energy drink A and energy drink B and they're, you know, either the same price or one's a little bit more or a little bit less than the other, trying to inform a customer, A, just what the differences are and why they matter.

Mm-hmm.

But then B, you know, and I'm sure you struggle with this when it's something that's complex like immunology or like Uh, you know, the way your body responds to certain supplements, you run the risk of getting to a certain point where people go, I think you're making that up. Right. Just because they don't understand you. Right. I'm sure you deal with that. Yeah.

Yeah. That's why I started making more videos, you know, like, sure, I can explain it like snippets of 2 minutes to a minute. Yeah. Because there is no other way. And I mean, nobody's gonna read a 12-pager, you know, or a blog post. Videos are easy. Even I go for videos sometimes. But even in the drink world, you know, I've been seeing people talking about anti-inflammation, which is wrong. They can't say anti-inflammation. You can't shut off inflammation. If you shut off inflammation, you'll die.

Sounds like you and Dr. Ebru need to have a conversation, Adam.

We can have a conversation.

I love you, lady. I love you.

Thanks for coming on the show.

Here's the thing. Wellness industry is going to be from inside out. And it is growing, guys. I mean, I think it's going to—

Functional beverages is like the hottest thing going right now.

Definitely.

Yeah. Yeah.

It can be done, but it needs to be done very carefully. And here's why. Although, oh, that looks good. Ma— Mushroom De-Stress. Okay, cool. Yeah. Adaptogenic stuff. Yeah.

And then have all the mushrooms on the back.

Yeah. It's, it's getting blurry, but yeah.

I see them. So anyway, there is one thing about supplements and all that. You know, some of the supplements are, some of the vitamins, And supplements, they are dissolved in oil, and some of them are dissolved in water. So there is this rising problem among the people who take a lot of oil-based, oil-soluble supplements with their kidneys. So now, the other day, I read a study about how if you're go if you're gonna go like sorry liver, so they're having problems with liver. I'm thinking about kidney. I read a study about kidneys before, but there is also a study about liver transplantations, and they're telling people to stop any supplements before the transplantation that's going to happen, and don't take any supplements after the liver transplantation because they go like, I need the vitamin D and vitamin K. And like, they're like, no, no, no, no, no, you're putting too much pressure on your liver.

Right.

So when it comes to the drinks, although they're all water-based, that is one of the key things. It's good to supplement But it's good to use supplements that are water soluble that could be processed and the extra can be thrown out, not kept.

Yeah. It's a new, a new product you're gonna be working on.

I'm not working on a new product. I just gave you an idea.

So I have a question. So I have a question. So, and the answer can absolutely be no. In fact, I expect it to be no.

Okay.

To Sam's point, I work with a lot of functional beverage brands. Doesn't happen super often, but every now and again, because people know me and they know that I only have so much patience for stuff, but every now and again, somebody will come to me and say, hey, you know, I want to make this product and it's going to do this. And I know very little about actual chemistry or immunology or efficacy rates or things like that, but I do know a little. And every now and again, somebody will come to me and go, yeah, it's going to have this in it and it's going to do this. And I will go, bullshit. Right? And they'll look at me and go, well, no, because I read online or so-and-so told me. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a chemist, but I have smart friends. Bullshit. Right? So my question to you is very selfishly in those moments, and they're very infrequent, but when I get somebody who just wants to fight me on something, can I call you and have you agree with me that it's bullshit?

Sure. I love saying bullshit.

Beautiful.

I say bullshit plus bullshit thousand, you know?

Well, so look, as we kind of wrap up here, it's getting late on the hour. But I wanted to give an opportunity to go around the room with you, Dr. Ebru. Is there anything that we didn't cover today that you want us to cover? Or any parting messages to everybody that's watching us today?

I think, you know, in the immunology world, I want to stress a couple of things. When somebody says inflammation is bad, don't believe that. There are kinds of inflammation. You need acute inflammations to stay alive.

That's what I'm having right now, man. I'm having inflammation.

Well, you need that. Otherwise you're, you're going to be unhappy. But unwanted inflammation is the inflammaging, which is a chronic microinflammation that causes aging. And the higher level of inflammation, chronic inflammation, like that happens in autoimmune patients. So we need to make that differentiation very well. Also, your brain, you know how we say, oh, energy changes everything. It is true. It affects your body. It affects your immune system, how it functions. Because you get stressed and cortisol goes up, and then your body says, oh my God, I need to preserve energy, and it starts taking stuff down, you know? And then even immune system can be suppressed. So if you're going through a very, very stressful day, and if you're getting stressed, like sick very quickly, that's why. So give yourself a break. You know, you're not, you're not supposed to be Superwoman or Superman. And we're all human. We can make mistakes. Just let it go.

I love the message. You're all human. We all make mistakes. Let it go is a great message. Well, Adam, any closing thoughts to you?

Oh God. I'm, uh, I'm punch drunk from traveling for the last 2 weeks, but, but no, I mean, I'll echo some of the stuff that Dr. Ebru said, right? You know, take the time to learn about what you're doing, even if you're not trying to become the world's foremost expert in website development. Let's take time, take time to learn. You know, I think that one, you know, if it's, if it's not something you're going to be stressed about in 3 years, let it go, calm down. Right. It's not worth those gray hairs. And then, yeah, I mean, even for me this week, right? Like it's, it's production week. So it's a good reminder for me. I mean, I'm up at 5 or 6 in the morning and I'm going to bed at between 10 and midnight every night. And that's just kind of the nature of the beast. And I love it. I love what I do, but it's a good reminder to take a break as needed. So I'll leave you with that.

That's great. Well, thank you both. For me, as for a founder, and we love having Adam and I have founders on our show. So thank you, A, for coming. But B, thanks for just being honest because so many people, you know, I see it on LinkedIn. I'm just to pick on the people. They don't talk about the hard times. They just talk about the good times and they project that they did, they won $100 million or they did the 8-figure salary and it's just not true.

No, it's not.

And, you know, and You know, and have, you know, your passion is what's going to keep you going. And also the resilience of learning how to build a website because no one else would do it. That's, that's amazing to me.

Oh yeah. I drive my husband crazy because I go like, I did this.

And he's like, another business you can create.

I need to make a little note here. He's a supercomputing guru. I mean, he worked with the Noble team and everything. So whatever I do, I can't impress him. He's very He's very impressed with the food I make, so it's okay.

That's good. Well, thank you so, thank you so much for joining us. I'll ask you to remain on the line. Those of you that did join us on Wednesday the 14th of January, 2026, thank you. And, and, uh, and we wish everybody a great evening and a week to come.

Thanks everybody.

Take care.