Unpacking the Beverage Industry with Gamer Packaging

Good morning everybody, and happy Saturday. We are live on Drink Up with myself and Sam Anderson, our guest for the day, Joey Gamer. Good morning, Joey.

Good morning, Adam. Good morning, Sam.

Good morning.

We talked about gaming earlier here, so, but go Adam.

We know this is gaming. We'll get through the housekeeping. So for those of you on podcast land, thank you to our sponsors, our guest from earlier this week, Jay Williams at Freebird. Sam, are you drinking your obligatory Freebird this morning? There it is.

I am.

Bam. So we got Jay Williams at Freebird. We got Alicia Vargo, Dev Assets. We got, as well as Sam, we got myself and Alias Advising. We got Ryan Halliman and Rocks Advisors. And I think that's the list, right?

Yeah, we got, uh, everybody soon to be, maybe Gamer Packaging is going to be a sponsor, I bet.

Nope.

I'll go talk to my boss right after that. See if we, uh, can send you over a check and get some notoriety.

No pressure, right? Like we're live, you know, you can tell us.

Well, Joey, we know who you are, but for, again, the folks who may not, you know, give us a rundown on not only yourself and you, you know, dealer's choice on where you want to start, but yourself, your family, personally, professionally, who you guys are, what you do, you know, what are we, what are we here to discuss this morning?

Well, I, uh, I appreciate you guys having me on and, you know, from listening to your other guests, you definitely have spoken to some cool brands out there. And I don't know, I think I bring just a little bit of a different angle for the listeners and you guys for the conversation of kind of a Component that a pretty significant component that goes into building a beverage brand or any brand for that matter is you know the packaging side of things. We're we're headquartered in Minneapolis. We're a family business. My grandfather started Gamer Packaging in 1987, and essentially we're a packaging supply firm. We focus on partnerships and anything from glass, aluminum, plastic, or different types of packaging that we provide in the food. Beverage, cosmetic, and pharmaceutical segments. Where we really come into play at the end of the day is, you know, people miss it, but it's not just the package we're providing. There's a lot of different services that have to come about in order to bring a project to full fruition. And over the close to 40 years that we've been in business, we've just been building up those different departments to provide a wholesome experience or a turnkey solution with regards to packaging in any of those segments at that point.

Yeah. Last time I looked, I think you can't bring a product to market without a package. Is that true?

Typically you can't. And it's amazing when people are walking through the grocery store there, most people are not thinking about the package. They may call out something that looks cool or anything. Hell, when I'm walking through the grocery store, it can take up to 2 hours because I'm looking at every nitty-gritty detail because there's a lot that, there's a lot that goes in. A lot that goes into it. And it doesn't sound very sexy, but hell, I can tell you it's really rewarding when a project that you've worked on for 2 years makes it all the way to your local grocery store, wherever you're at at that point.

That's amazing.

So I want to get right into it. And you said something there, and I make this comment all the time, so it'll be old news for the people that listen to us regularly. You know, I think speaking for myself, you just touched on it. You know, We go to the grocery store, we go to Amazon, we're so used to the purchase perspective. Oh, it's there. I bought it. It's mine. I'm done. It's very simple. It's very straightforward, right? We're very much used to that experience.

Yeah.

And so then, you know, new brands get into the space and they kind of have to flip that experience on its head. They come in with this preconceived notion, which is fair, of what's the same way. I just buy it, I use it, and it's good. It's over. It's done. It's really simple. Right. And you just touched on it. While yes, you do offer those commodity items to, to, you know, use a phrase, that's not the whole solution. That's not the entire picture. And so, you know, however you feel is best, maybe walk us through where the company started, because I'm assuming it didn't start with, we have all these support services. They probably grew over time and, you know, kind of, you know, maybe what some of those are, what some of those stickier pieces of the conversation are.

Yeah. I mean, when a brand's getting started, they kind of have to make the decision, well, what am I gonna do from a packaging standpoint? And then you gotta kind of tie into, well, what's gonna be my product? How does the packaging associate with that? Where am I gonna fill the product? And then ultimately in their wheelhouse, you know, how you're gonna distribute it at the end of the day. But no, when we got, when we got started, it was specifically in food glass that my grandfather really got involved with. And by food glass, I mean, Any pasta sauce that you're seeing out there and how that grew. It came from him putting a suit and tie on in the '80s, going down to his basement with a single employee all the way to now we're in our office in downtown Minneapolis and have, I believe, close to probably 75 employees throughout the country. And slowly but surely on the different deals that him and then my father and my mother worked on, you know, over the several decades, the areas of value that we built departments of, you know, kind of came naturally of what consumers were or what brand owners were needing at that point. There's a lot of different, you know, aspects of minimums when you're buying packaging. Are you going to go with a stock solution, more of a commodity item, as you mentioned, Adam, or are you going to look into something custom? So like for minimums, for example, well, Yeah, we may need, we may need to help assist our customers with a storage solution in order to maintain those minimums. So over the decades, you know, we built out a storage network of 30 different, 35 different warehouses throughout the country to provide that as a value to our customer. And then from a, you know, are you gonna go a stock packaging route or a custom packaging route? Well, for the customers that are looking to go to a custom packaging route, you know, looking at bringing on some engineers to build out a, you know, development of custom packaging department at that point, which believe it or not is as technical as it gets. And it's not necessarily my wheelhouse. I can certainly help you conceptualize a custom package, but there's a lot of different factors in terms of tip angles, a lot of things that you would never, never think of that has to go into actually designing or taking a cocktail napkin And concept all the way to fruition.

And then— Real quick, just real quick. I just, I'm just like, just this packaging thing. So I just gotta get myself centered here. Are you a co-packer too, or you just do the package? Are you everything?

So we're, we are a packaging distributor. So, uh, we do not, we do not co-pack anything.

But— So you, you, you're like, you get, like, if I need a can, you're gonna get that can and you're gonna—

Yeah.

Okay. Within, and then just one more question. Sorry, Adam.

That's fine.

Within the can, are you just the can or are you the label on the can too?

We're, um, we're everything to do with that can outside of filling it. So all empty packages. Oh, the decoration, you know, having a decoration.

Sorry, I'm a rookie at this.

No, please, dude. This is great.

Now, and I mean, yeah, and we can, I could, we could have a whole other podcast specifically about cans, but that market has been a really important one, especially in the beverage space for us in the past 10 years or so. I think we're going to be close to Moving over a billion cans next year, which you know sounds like a lot, but versus some of these brands out there, I believe the global market demand for beverage cans last year was around 100 over 100 billion at that point. So we're a we're a small we're a small player in the scheme of things, but at the same point, we can help bring someone from you know a few pallets of packaging products that they're requiring all the way up to hundreds of truckloads annually, and that's kind of the exciting thing to be. involved in this business is when you— they don't all work out, all the smaller customers that you're working with. But many times over the past several decades, yeah, the guy who was buying a pallet of glass, you know, who's going through hundreds of millions of packages, we got to see that throughout their entire, you know, company lifecycle at that point. And it's pretty special being a part of in those instances.

It's amazing.

Absolutely. So, so with that, and I want to give a few shoutouts because my LinkedIn's finally Playing nicely. It wasn't earlier this week. I don't. I hope I'm not going to butcher some of these names because I haven't said them before. So, Manir, welcome. Cogs is always good to see you. Alicia, Peter, if Jeff's listening along, or Captain, as I now know him to be referred. Thank you, everybody, for joining us this morning.

Yeah, and Yen Men Anderson, my sister from a different mother, is out there too. So she's out of the UK. She joined us. So she was on with us the other day.

I know she was super involved too. It was great. So, so Joey, I'm curious and you just touched on it mostly because we're all, I mean, if we're listening to the show, if we're on the show, we're all nerds to your point. Our spouses all hate walking through the grocery store with us because we're going to just geek out over new things we see, right? If you can—

Can't, no pun intended.

Well, right. Yeah. If, if you bottle, uh, no, if you're, if you're able to, you know, pick maybe not the coolest, but the coolest you're able to share kind of version of whatever you just said, right? Like somebody that started small either in your time or maybe in your grandfather's time and is still with the company and has grown. I, I think those stories are cool, right?

Yeah. Well, without naming names, I mean, there's different segments. I mean, the cool thing about the industry is you see these different segments come about, you know, I mean, a big boom for us was in the '90s when craft beer was really popular. So we really rode that wave. You know, I still love craft beer. The, the industry has kind of, flatlined on that side, on that side of things. But there's some still great customers in the craft beer segment that we work with. But, you know, if craft beer is flatlining, it's like, what are the different markets that are coming about? And, you know, a lot of them in the last, I'd say, 10 years or so has really been a push in the functional beverage side of things. So whether it's kombucha, a lot of different types of energy drinks, specialty waters, what have you. I mean, it's amazing walking through the grocery store in that beverage aisle now. It's almost overwhelming the amount of functional beverages out there. A cool instance, again, in this market where kombucha back in the day was, no one had heard of it. Very niche type of item that a lot of people would brew, you know, at home at that point. And what's unique about like kombucha is that they call it a SCOBY or the mother at that point, which is a bacteria that grows on top of the product. And that's what ultimately ferments it. I mean, you gotta stop the fermentation, but yeah, from a market that went, that was completely nonexistent. We have a couple customers, one in particular that quite literally was bottling their kombucha in, I believe it was their own garage or their family member's garage at that point. It wasn't from us at that, at that juncture, but was getting a pallet of glass delivered to their driveway.

Did you have to go up to the So you had to literally get it so the bathtub could fill.

I don't, I, you know, I don't know what processes this individual had to fill everything in the garage, but all the way to this, you know, this company being the one of the market leaders in the kombucha space at this point. And just to say, it's a very different operation these days. And again, finding different points of where to be of value. to that particular customer. Because when you're in the packaging distribution space, the question always is, my tube— when is a brand big enough where they wanna start buying directly from a manufacturer? That's the question I have to battle every single day. And as these customers grow, the value you provide for them shifts at that point. So it might've been just simply supplying packages at the beginning, but that's transitions to, well, I need to help them with a repacking solution because how the bottles are packed out from, from the manufacturer isn't in a particular packout that is gonna work for their facility. So identifying and building out a solution for a service there, all the way to different types of customization and assisting them in diversifying their supply chain. So we're not just working with a single manufacturer of glass or plastic at that point.

So here's a question coming in from COGS. This might Kind of tie into what you're saying. His question is, so can you receive brights, that's unlabeled cans, I guess, is the terminology, and run through the line to apply labels, pack into trays, and palletize for the forklift? Man, this is way beyond my skill level here, Adam.

Yeah. You're doing great, Sam.

Well, uh, uh, I, I appreciate the question and I think where the question is coming from is especially when you're dealing with bright cans. These pallets of how cans are palletized out of a manufacturer are really tall. So I'm talking over 100 inches at this point. And each pallet contains anywhere from, you know, 7,500 to 9,000 cans in a single pallet at that point. And if you ever go to a can manufacturing plant, I mean, they, I mean, a lot of 'em are like spaceships. And as simple as it seems to say, well, could they just Shave off a couple layers when they're palletizing it. That's a lot harder at the manufacturing facility than it would see seen conceptually. So, in some instances, a lot of smaller customers you know they can't necessarily receive in a full height full height pallet like this, and we've had to you know undergo a down stacking program, for example. So that's a perfect scenario of something that we've done done and continue to do for particular instances where a customer is needing you know a customized palletization program that can't necessarily be done from a manufacturer. And to their other point then too, Sam, I mean, where I see just a ton of value for gamer packaging is I used the phrase turnkey at that point earlier on. And there's a lot of other packaging components that go along with cans outside just the aluminum can body. It's everything from the corrugate packaging or what we would consider the secondary packaging that cans are packed into, as well as, you know, the can ends at that point. So we try to tie all of that together where a company can easily deal with a single source for their packaging needs, and then from there focus on what's important, and that's getting their product out there and identifying those new distribution outlets to grow the brand.

All right, so I got another question coming in here. Sorry, Adam, I'll take the question so you can get back to it. Peter, I think The overwhelming, overwhelming vibe is where the brands with the strongest, smartest label designs win. Do you think the overly busy design labels have just oversaturated the market?

I hope I don't upset any customers, but I, I would have to, have to answer yes. And I mean, when you're going down those aisles and you're just absolutely overwhelmed with the amount of brands out there, You gotta kind of look out for what catches your eye at that point. And in many instances, that's what a consumer's going to end up gravitating towards. And from my standpoint, it's not for everyone, but the really clean labels, simple, that are also using vibrant colors at that point, that's typically kind of what I see as like I gravitate to, to investigate further at that point. Because yeah, you might be walking down an aisle, there's 100 different brands and With all the busyness going on with some of these artworks today, the technology has gotten fantastic. Getting back to your roots of ensuring that you've got a good product in the first place tied to a cohesive marketing strategy or a family of products at that point. And I always advocate for simple. It's easier to design, but that doesn't mean the product is any less desirable based on how many different colors they're utilizing on a particular package.

Interesting. You want to take the question, Adam?

I will. Yeah. Cause I'm going to reframe it a little bit. So, so Yan Min, as always, thanks for being here and your super thorough questions. So she, I'm going to, I'm going to reframe the end of it a little bit, but she said, interestingly, my 7-year-old student showed me how she made kombucha at her home 3 weeks ago. Kombucha is getting popular here in the UK. Her original question was, how did you decide the amount of kombucha that you produced at the beginning of? And I think maybe, and I'm trying to read between the lines here, there may be some confusion there. So you guys, and we know this, So this is clarity for Yanmin, that you guys aren't the kombucha brand and you're not filling the liquid. So I think maybe to reframe the question is you talk about these, these, I'll call them advisory services or turnkey services. How does the conversation look with some of these new brand owners where they might come in and say, you know, I don't know how much packaging I need for my kombucha, or I think I need, you know, 50,000 bottles. And you're like, you're going to sit on 50,000 bottles for a year and a half. Maybe that's Let's right-size this PO. So how do you navigate those conversations?

I always start the conversation, conversation with a smaller group like that, you know, kombucha or anything else for that matter, is what, what, what's the, the end goal here? Is this a, is this a kind of side project hobby that you're doing right now and you're looking for packages to, you know, distribute for free to your friends and family? Or is this something that you're serious about that eventually you'd like to build out into either a direct-to-consumer business online or all the way to a full retail setting at that point? And if the answer to that question is no, I'm looking at the latter, you know, I'm looking at this a little bit more seriously, well, then we got to kind of dive into, you know, what, what is that strategy for to enter into from a packaging standpoint? And, you know, it's going to be tough filling products out of your house and being able to have a marketable or scalable brand that in the instance you do walk into a grocery store and they really like your product, okay, are you going to be able to fulfill that potential order that you're going to get? So if someone's serious about it, I generally look through our Rolodex and we've got a massive network of different co-packers that we're working with that I, you know, I have all different minimums at this point from very small batch sizes all the way up to, you know, The batch size is so interesting.

Like I have, I have a brand that's a functional beverage and we were, I guess we're in the test it phase.

Yeah, sure.

Um, and Adam knows a little bit about it, but I should give you a call. Um, we do have a guy that used to run Pepsi North America knows co-packers, but I'd love to just like talk to you too, because it seems like what they think we need to raise, we're in kind of an argument or discussion. I'm like, can't we just do this? Can we, let me step back a little bit. Let me ask a question. What do you think it takes to actually launch a brand financially? That's a loaded question, but starting with that, how much money do you need to actually launch a brand? Adam probably knows the answer too, but—

I got a lot of friends. Okay. I went to, I went to college at Babson College out in Massachusetts, 45 minutes outside of Boston. And the whole realm of Babson is entrepreneurship. So there's a lot of different companies that are founded within that network. And what I think mistakenly is assumed is that, you know, sometimes like a beverage, for example, may seem like, oh, that's a pretty straightforward company, or that's a pretty straightforward concept that you have. And it's really not. It takes equal amount of dedication as any other business. So, I mean, the first thing I have to, I would answer that question is you need to be really committed at this point that there is going to be extremes, extreme ups and downs as you're launching a brand, especially a beverage brand, and a lot of struggles finding the right partners to work with. You got to go into it with the dedication that, and understanding that those ups and downs are going to take place. And in addition, understanding that it's not going to be a straightforward process. Like I can pro— I can promise you that. And there's going to be a lot of iteration that takes place. So the brands that for beverages that I see struggling, Sam, are where they have a concept in mind. And they are so set on it that they're, they're unwilling to move or to iterate as they go throughout the process. You know, I, I was speaking with a brand recently that they were just set on this particular type of plastic PET bullet-shaped bottle and they're also set on the exact product that they wanted to put in it. But what they didn't, you know, show any flexibility for at that point is The pasteurization or the filling method that is required for this type of product is not suitable for this package that you're looking for right now.

So their cost of goods are going way up because the—

Well, their cost of goods, but they're limiting their scope of the partners that they're able to identify and work with at that point. So if there was a little flexibility saying, hey, okay, I learned something new there, you know, I'm going to have to pivot a little bit from what my original concept was. Having that type of flexibility is really gonna open the options for people to more rapidly scale their brand and find their identity as they're building this out.

Got it. That's interesting.

And you need a little capital. You know, I know that sounds silly, but you know, you do need a little capital. You need to be prepared that when you're a small brand, there's gonna be instances where you're gonna be needing to pay upfront for things. So you're gonna be needing to pay upfront for sometimes the packaging unless you're working with me and I work a deal with you because the family business, I got a little bit of flexibility when it comes to that, but also paying upfront for line time from a manufacturing facility, you know, so you got to have a little bit of money in the bank and then go-forward strategy of what distribution outlet you're going to target first. Is it direct to consumer? Or are you going to be knocking on retailers' doors right off the bat?

So is half a million the number?

Half a million, you could certainly get there from the packaging side of things. You certainly could get through a first full production run, I'd say with a stock package, enough quantity or enough inventory where you can actually capitalize on opportunities you have. Probably pretty quickly though after that for subsequent production runs, you know, maybe you can get through 2 at that point. But if your product is good and it's beginning to scale and you're growing a customer base, production runs cost a lot of money and you'll Quickly blow through, uh, half a million once you get to maybe 3rd or 4th production run at that point.

Yeah.

Good. This is good and important conversation. Adam, you wanna grab some of these questions and comments?

Yeah.

Uh, so Coke said, great info on those crazy high pallets of empty cans, brights, and labeled. Wondering if you could receive a truckload of filled brights, provide the shrink sleeves, apply them to the cans, get them into the trays, and then get the finished product on the pallets delivered to the DSDs. Good, good question.

That would fall slightly Out of our scope, but in many instances I have done deals like that, and there are partners out there that with filled products will be able to label them post-filling. I would say typically for decoration methods and typically for labels specifically, you typically apply a label immediately after filling or inline at that point. An inline seamer is what they or an inline labeler is what they would refer it to. And outside of that, I mean, what I would recommend to this individual too is there's a lot of opportunities to purchase in smaller quantities, pre-decorated can bodies. So either pre-sleeved can bodies or pre-digitally printed can bodies, you're going to be looking at probably minimums between around a single pallet at that point, you know, so I'm talking the 8 or the 6,000 to 9,000 units, and that's going to be your minimum for a pre-decorated product. But if that's too much for you, and what this person is saying, like, hey, this is too much, they're probably going to have to look at looking at a half-stacked pallet, cut that quantity in half, maybe 4,000 units or so, either hand-apply labels, or yeah, I do know off the top of my head 2 companies that I'd be able to introduce them to, to post-sleeve a can. And that's really where, again, I come into play is I look at really myself as a matchmaker and everyone that works here at Gamer Packaging as matchmakers. Anything that, any introductions I can provide to a potential customer to better position them to scale their brand and ultimately on my side of things, purchase more packaging. I look at, I look at that as a win. And even if I'm providing an introduction and a packaging sale doesn't take place, you're at least making the right connection and you're putting, you're, you're opening a dialogue with someone that eventually when the time is right, you know, there may be an opportunity down the road, which Happens more often than not.

Do you have access to early-stage investors?

Yes. And in some cases we have actually been early-stage investors ourselves. So, okay.

I'll be giving you a call later on today.

Yes. I probably shouldn't. I'm probably shooting myself in the foot on that one, but that's kind of the— where there's several, there's several different packaging distributors out there that do, that do what Gamer Packaging does. When my grandfather founded this, many of the Kind of competitors we see today were also founded in that period. And where I see Gamer as being unique these days is that we were fully, we've remained over this close to 40 years at this point, fully 100% family owned. And that's an overused phrase, you know, family business or what have you. But as our company has grown as well as our competitors, competitors have often taken, you know, investment, which I don't blame them for, you know, private equity investment, have sold the company or what have you. Which I think impacts the team from a cultural standpoint, but also limits the flexibility that you can provide for someone, Sam. So that's, that's why, yeah, we're in a unique position that, hey, if there's a deal that looks good for us, you know, and that in exchange for packaging we can make an investment into, that's something we're always willing to explore all the way down to if someone needs a change part for a particular line that would help grow their efficiencies and meet their demands, you know, we'll participate in purchasing that piece of equipment for them. So it's, it's an overused phrase again, this one, but we're looking for partners at the end of the day. I try to avoid very transactional pieces of business, but I'm really seeking out the ones that are looking for a holistic partner on the packaging side of things. And what the ones that are successful and the ones that have seen our value understand that there's a lot more that we can advise on than simply just the packaging, which is just a single component of a lot of different things that gotta come together for a beverage, a food product.

There's a lot of use cases which you just described. I'm just thinking out loud, won't say names, but like particular, I know a particular co-packer distillery, you know, throughout the country, but they, they do, they do regular cans, but they need to do slim cans, but the cost to do that part's expensive. Right. But if they could get that part, that's a win for you because they start buying slim cans from you.

That's 100% accurate.

Uh, Adam, you get what I'm thinking here or whatever?

We've already talked about it. We won't name names, but the gamer group and I have Mark and team. We've already discussed who you're talking about for that exact reason.

So, and that's, and again, that's a, that's something, for example, great callout. That's something that someone who's just starting a brand and building it up, this is the flexibility that I'm talking about here. You know, they may have set in their head that I want this exact type of slim can. Okay. And what you just described there, Sam, is a slim can requires a 200 diameter can end that goes on top of it versus a 202 diameter can end that goes on your regular 12-ounce Coke can, beer can, 16-ounce can, what have you. And there's not as many co-packers that have the capabilities to fill or seam the smaller 200 diameter can end. And the machinery to the change parts and the machinery required to do that, you're talking tens of thousands of dollars, if not more at that point. So that's the flexibility that I'm talking about. Brands need to consider as they're getting started up that, hey, maybe down the road you can consider a slim can, but if you're really looking for a co-packer that can fill in this part of the country with the capabilities to fill your particular type of product, you might need to explore at your current scale going into a more standardized can format as, as you get your brand out there, allowing yourself in the future to explore something a little bit more unique when you've got some scale under you to justify that.

I was just thinking from a standpoint, it's like this particular operator was shipping off that business. I'm like, well, yeah, like, bring it in-house.

And, and on that point too, I mean, a big trend that we've seen in the last 10 years is a lot of brands, you know, take craft brewers, for example, you know, there's a lot, there's some great breweries here in Minneapolis, you know, that built out these expensive production lines. Okay. And they had the intention of producing, filling, seaming, doing everything in-house of their, of their end product at that point. What has come about though is with these huge lines, these huge filling lines, a lot of them have some excess capacity on them. So a lot of brewers are not just filling their own product, they're doing a lot of private label filling. So in that instance, Sam, it's like, yeah, based on where they're at in the country and their capabilities, if it opens up a large door of potential business that they have in front of them by purchasing this seaming equipment for a 200 slim, a slim can, that's, that's, that's a win for us that, uh, 'cause I then have a new co-packer that I can refer business to at that point. And then in addition, I probably got a good partner in that co-packer that might need to be stocking some bright or standardized packages for, you know, smaller customers that they may be filling for. Yeah.

I mean, I want to go back to something you said a second ago. I, again, I think it's, it's a simple phrase, but, but it's, I'm going to steal it and repeat it to people is not that you're, you know, not that you're in the business of turning away business, but that you are Less interested. I'll put it that way to put some words in your mouth, less interested in transactional business. If that's what the need is and we've had a conversation, sure. Right. Like businesses need to make money. If we've got, you know, if we're selling what you're looking to buy, great. But, you know, it's refreshing to hear is what I'm getting at. There's no question here. It's just a comment of like, you know, as somebody who doesn't have a widget, a can, a bottle to broker and is purely a service provider, That's very much true for me, but even for, you know, to hear from somebody like yourself who's deeply ingrained in an almost 40-year business to say the same thing, I think, you know, is highly impactful and something for a lot of smaller brands to remember because they do. I think they come with this expectation of like, oh, I'm just going to do this transaction, then everything will be fine. Well, A, probably not. And B, if your partners are telling you, oh, you're going to just do this transaction, everything will be fine. Like if they're repeating that back to you, Maybe find another partner, right?

Well, yeah, and I appreciate you saying that. And like you said, like, I don't like turning away business by any means. And, you know, where I kind of see that coming out is, you know, someone who's requesting quotes for a very standardized package from 16 different companies at that point. And I'm happy, and I'm one of them, you know, I'm happy to provide you pricing at that point, but am I going to always going to be the lowest price on the block? Absolutely, absolutely not. And I'm very upfront with people when I say that, but what I would call out to those individuals that are just solely looking for the lowest price is consider that the people you're working with, what type of partner are you looking at when something goes wrong? Okay. And there's not a single good partnership that is formed with everything going right at that point. And some of the strongest relationships I have out there are some of our longest-term business have had a lot of problems over the years. But why they've stuck with us is because we've always showed up to support them when things go wrong at that point. And further, like we've built out an entire quality department, but we don't, we never, we never leave anyone hanging, whether it's on the supplier end of things or a customer side of things. So that's what I would just advise people for consideration who's looking for the absolute lowest price. I'll tell you, we'll certainly be competitive, but even what you're paying for in terms of a premium is someone that's gonna be showing up for you. And it's my job at the end of the day to do my best and demonstrate that to a brand during an initial conversation in order for them to, uh, jump on the boat and, you know, take a ride, take a ride with us at that point.

Sure. No, I, I think, you know, even for myself, and it sounds like you probably do this too, you know, when I'm, when I'm talking to somebody new, either about myself or I just did this yesterday with a, a co-packing partner that I wanted to refer a brand to, I start with stories of things going wrong. I, I start with, hey, you know, we did X, Y, and Z to try and prevent it. And, Shit happens, equipment goes down, you know, what have you. But here was how, you know, me, the partner, whoever it was addressed it. And for that reason, I continue to bring them business. And you just watch people go, really? Yes. Right. These people exist. They are out there. They do care. So to switch gears a little bit, you touched on something that, that I would be remiss if I didn't pick your brain on right now, because you are far more tuned into this world than I am. Aluminum pricing. Let's, let's, I'll try and frame this as simply as possible. Oh, we've all heard tariffs and domestic stock and international stock and And I don't wanna totally spin you out, so let's keep it simple. If we're talking about a, an offset printed, you know, half truck, full truck, 12-ounce sleek can, standard 202 diameter end, right? For the can itself, just the can, not the end. Ballpark it for me. Not, I'm, this is not me asking for a quote that I can take to the bank, but—

Who's saying the end? Is that the top? Is the end, is the end the top, by the way? Just for me. So that's minus, it's just the end. Okay. Got it.

So yeah, it's the end when you bite. When, when you buy a can, it's, it's a two, it's 2 pieces. Ultimately you get the can body and it comes completely open. That whole end that you're talking about there isn't on there. Product is filled into it and it goes through a process of, yep, correct. The whole, the whole top part goes through what's called chucks and rollers where very precisely after the product is filled within the can, that end is put on and seamed very uniformly as much as possible on top of that can. But from a ballpark standpoint, for a 12-ounce sleek, I'd say anywhere between, for a direct offset, and that would be a full minimum truckload. And here you're putting me on the spot. So that's 202,400 cans per truckload for a 12-ounce sleek. I might have that confused with a standard, but we'll check myself after that.

Yep.

Anywhere between 10 to 13 cents per unit FOB at the, at the manufacturing site. 3 years ago, Pre-tariffs, everything. And after COVID, so not during COVID but this period, you know, after COVID, but before tariffs. I mean, for a sleek, you'd be on the much lower end of that scale, somewhere between sometimes as low as maybe even $8.50 or $85 per thousand, which is 8 cents per unit. So I'd say 8 to 11. These days with the aluminum tariffs, which are, are making a significant impact on the market. And anyone who purchases cans knows that that's not just me trying to protect myself, demonstrating that the prices are going to be higher. It's just a known fact. And again, that's a full 3-hour podcast that we could get into because I live and breathe the aluminum market hedging every day.

Is the top something that comes along with the cans? You ship the top end or does that come from someone else?

That's a separate line item price.

So let's just call it, Sam, the can body, let's just, for a 12-ounce sleek, 11 cents per unit for a direct offset print. The can end at that point is gonna be an additional 3.5 cents per unit. So you're looking at somewhere for the full package under 15 cents per unit, and that's fully pre-decorated. And when we're saying direct offset print, that printing actually takes place at the site of where the can is manufactured. It's all built in at these, uh, can manufacturers that portion of the process. But with that, that's where the higher minimums come into play. So you got a couple different decoration methods. Let's just call it there's pre-sleeved cans, okay, which is done at an offsite third party that takes bright cans, like you said, Sam, that are undecorated. They put a sleeve on it, shrink it, ship it to the customer versus the direct offset that we're talking about here where it's printed directly at the site where the can is manufactured. Direct offset, higher minimums, much, much, much lower price. Then you've got the pre-sleeved option, which is much lower minimums. I'm talking as low as a single pallet versus the 200,000 I talked about for the direct offset, significantly higher price. I'd say almost double at that point.

Wow.

But those are the considerations that, that's probably the biggest conversation I have upfront with new brands in cans. So which direction do they want to go with this? And that's why they call it craft, by the way.

All the craft people are going to probably be mad at me. It's crap.

And it's small. And it's, and it's, it's really hard, you know, for a customer that is from the industry, has the right distribution outlets, has a good co-packer, and has the money. They may be in a situation where, hey, they can go immediately into a direct offset, offset printed can. But what do you have to take into account if there's any artwork changes that need to take place? Say you get some consumer feedback on the product and you need to alter the formula and need to change the ingredients panel, you're stuck with 200,000 cans at that point that cannot be redecorated. So in many instances, for a first run, it's highly beneficial that even though it's a significantly higher price, that pay the higher price for the lower minimum so you can test out if this is what you're gonna be working with long-term. And the biggest industry that's struggling with that is Of course, the cannabis market or the THC beverages because first of all, if you're selling multi-states at this point, every state has a different. There's just a patchwork of laws and different regulations that take place. So again, you may need to have different decoration method based on which state you're selling into. And then things change all the time with this industry right now. It's still very new. It definitely has money behind it versus where it was ten years ago in the beverage segment. And I'm talking kind of outside of the Colorado, California markets that have, you know, the established recreational markets that, you know, there's just a lot that changes on a monthly basis, if not day to day.

Yeah, I got a supplier that we represent and, uh, basically the Minnesota laws are the strictest, so they're making their can to fit those laws and then they believe that actually meets the requirements of the other states. So that's what we're going with on that instance. But you're right, it seems to be a moving target nowadays in that piece, but we'll be ready to go and I guess February we'll roll out. Minnesota, even though the bill changed everything. We'll see where things land.

You're a smart guy, Sam, because that's that. If I had a THC beverage, which is the growing trend, again, you know, you just look at the macro statistics and the next generation here, alcohol sales are going down. But what is absolutely blowing up are these functional beverages as well as these THC brands that, you know, the younger generation is looking to versus, you know, standard alcohol, which like I, I I certainly was an alcohol guy in college. Okay. But I just know if I went back to college, it would be a little bit different these days, but yeah, go this, go the safest route, you know, even though if it's more money, go with the strictest regulations, because that may put you in the position to run more efficiently actually at that point and probably save your, save your money long-term if you're going the strictest route that is allowable for a larger market, different states at that. Yeah.

Forecasting gets tough on this whole thing too, because we're like, okay, like a founder's asked me, okay, so you can open up Georgia for me, right?

Yeah.

Okay. Yep. We can open up Georgia. Well, how many cases are you going to sell in Georgia? He goes, you can open me up Florida. Yep. How many cases can you sell? And he's thinking he has to make production. He's going back, he's working like a demand planner. He's like, okay, I gotta, I got there somewhere. How many do I need to produce? Because there's like minimums that he has to hit. But there's timing, I guess, that he has to figure out, and he wants to make enough to actually meet the demand in the marketplace. And what happened to him, just to be transparent, with the Bonamus is, you know, he made a big bet and the big bet didn't pay off. And now we have product that we're trying to move out, right? So I'm like, okay, we're going to do BOGOs, buy one, get one, get in the market as a launch, you know, to think. So all this stuff is real because every can nowadays, it seems like to have a best-by date on the cans. The whole bit, which is, which is a hard, hard world to live in when, especially when you're launching a brand, uh, the whole bit. And you said something really I wanna go back to, 'cause I lived this with a brand here in Minnesota. Um, they were nationwide with, uh, you'll know who I'm talking about in a minute, um, Adam, but they were nationwide with BevMo and Total.

Mm-hmm.

And BevMo and Total came to order the product. They couldn't fill the order because they didn't have enough money to produce it.

Yep.

But they were nationwide. They'd operate and they couldn't make the product to fill the order. And guess what happened? They got discontinued and the product's out of business now.

It's the most frustrating word, forecasting. But even though it's frustrating, it's so important. And you just really are looking to find that middle ground, you know, where you're not overleveraging yourself with inventories of packaging items or build inventory, but at the same point, you have enough stock on hand to capitalize on those opportunities as they come about. And, you know, money comes into play, the right partner comes into play. And for everything that we can do at our— on our end at Gamer, we try to support that. So through the warehousing network that I had mentioned to you, when I'm saying warehousing, that what usually comes along with it is financing as well. So that's good.

That's good to know. Couple questions coming in because we're running out of time. You want to take the question from Yanmen? And as well as Robert Adam, there were 2. It was after Joshua's comment.

Let me refresh my LinkedIn while that's happening. I mean, yeah, no, I got it.

Give me one second.

The, I think that, you know, to extrapolate on Joey's point about the body and the end cost, right? If you extrapolate that out to the overall cash purchase for that truckload, you're looking at about $30,000, right? And I think that, Right. Talk about forecasting is incredibly difficult, but I tell brands all the time, and I'm sure Joey does too. And Sam, I know you do. I would much rather hear, even as the consultant, I would much rather hear somebody tell me, hey, my per unit cost of goods may not be so attractive right now, but I have a clear plan for how to improve that while being cost conservative, as opposed to I just blew $100,000 on 3 SKUs for a truckload each of cans. My cost of goods is amazing, but now I have no money to market it. pay my sales team and so on. Like, those are 2 very different worlds, right? So anyway, questions are up here now. So Yanmin said, how do you assess consumer feedback and act on it? When you have mixed feedback, what do you do? And it's kind of similar vein. Cogs asked, how do you see the non-alc growth curve? So first, just consumer feedback in general. I think that came from the question of like shifting artwork and how to address that. And then Cogs's question on the non-alc growth curve.

All right. I think the first one is, it's right in the vein of what we're talking, right, of finding the right inventory level in order to not overextend yourself, but still allow yourself the flexibility to pivot once that consumer feedback comes in. Something that comes to mind when I hear a question like that too, is it always makes me nervous, especially for a brand new brand, if they come to me and say, I have 7 SKUs that I'm looking to launch off the bat here. That's a lot. That's 7, 7 different problems that come about where I would like to hear, hey, I, uh, I have 2 SKUs that I want to launch with. I'm going to learn what, uh, the consumer feedback is on that, do some focus groups, what have you, and ease into growing your family of, uh, products. So yeah, it's finding that, it's finding that perfect honey hole to receive consumer feedback, pivot, adjust. take more action at that point and wait to get more feedback that comes in. And then what was the other one, Adam?

So Cogues asked, and, and a little bit of background. So Cogues is, is always here with us. We've had him on the show. He's up in Canada.

Okay.

You know, even though he's our tri-host, right?

Okay.

Even, uh, even though what we've been going over a little bit, you know, he said that, that labeling adjustment is super common for Canada for obvious reasons, right? Language requirements, that kind of thing. So that's where a lot of his questions have come from. But he asked, how do you see the non-alc growth curve? Okay.

Right now I'm seeing it. I'd say it's not a hockey stick anymore, but it's still increasing. I'm speaking to probably 5 different— I could easily speak to 5 different brands a week of a new concept that's coming out. That's anything in the coffee or milk-based industries, the water-based industries, energy, of course, And then what you're seeing, you know, just a lot of functional sodas out there as well. What I always just keep in mind, and I'm not being a pessimist at all in saying this, I'm just trying to be a realist at the same point, having been around or have with our company, having been around and seeing a lot of different trends that have taken place. Again, going back to the craft beer boom in the '90s, a lot of those brewers are out of business at this point because it came, it became very, very Oversaturated, so I'm we're always kind of keeping an eye on that, and that's when I'm walking down those aisles and you're seeing more and more kind of interesting new brands that are you know unique to a market. Something I'm keeping my eye out that again that I don't want to see the industry flatline by by any means, but it's probably growing at a less pace than maybe it was when there was the boom happening kind of. pre-COVID years. But no, it's still down and dirty. A lot of, a lot of innovation taking place. So it's not slowing down, but it's something— oversaturation is always something that I'm looking at in the marketplace just for consideration.

Yeah. And then price will start to compress 100% because as people get bigger, they can compress the price because they're trying to maintain market share. And then the guys trying to come in, they're like, well, I'm going to be at this price. I'm like, well, you're not even going to get on the shelf because you're not at the right price. I mean, I've just, I said at Walmart and they told me point blank, your price is too high for this product. And what makes you think that you can command that price? And I tried to tell them the story of why and they weren't buying.

Yep. Yeah. That's why I always start, I always start, Sam, like, is the product good? You know, I know that sounds basic and a lot of people say, no, the product doesn't have to be good. It has to, the marketing has to be good. Both can, in my opinion, can be true at the same time. Where a consumer is going to pay the extra 50 cents at the store shelf is if they actually like your product. So that's what, especially in an oversaturated market, you can't just, in my opinion, rely solely on the market.

You should go listen to our first episode. You should go listen to this first episode of Drink Up. Sorry to interrupt. That's what I basically talk about. Price Worth the Goods Charged by Jack Daniel's is the title of the So you should listen to it. Um, anyway, I came in a little hot there to interrupt purposely because we're at 10:24.

That's fine.

Maybe Adam could wrap up. We have a very important question that Adam's going to ask. We ask everybody that comes on the podcast this very question. And then, um, Adam, then you can just wrap up things as well from there.

Yeah, no, I mean, first and foremost, and we'll say it a few times, I mean, appreciate the time, Joey. To your point, we could sit here for hours and do this because you're, you and your team are a wealth of information. Super happy to have been, have been kind of reconnected with you guys recently. So the question is this, what's the difference between success and failure by your estimate?

The difference between success and failure out of the gut of what I would say is the ability to, the ability for someone to take the blows and be able to get back up on their feet. And that, that goes to what I was saying earlier, that you're, you're gonna have a lot of adversity, whether it's a beverage brand, a food brand, or a technology brand that doesn't utilize a package. Your ability to take constructive criticism and pivot further, take action, I think is what differentiates success and failure. You always have to continue taking action. If you're not taking action, I think you're dying at that point, but you have to take smart action. So after each step you take, evaluating how that step went, allowing you to, you know, take a more educated future step. I think that's the pathway to success and that in order to do that properly, you have to be able to handle the adversity that comes along with it. Hope that was a good answer.

Adam, I love it. I mean, from a, from a gentleman whose family started a 40-year business in a garage, you know, hawking pasta sauce glass. I mean, it's a solid answer for sure.

Yeah.

So the, the follow-up kind of open-ended question that we always like to end with, and Sam and I know the answer to this, but for the world, for the world listening, where can folks find Gamer? How do they get in touch with you all? What are maybe some other things we haven't talked about that you want to leave people with?

Anyone can get us on our website at gamerpackaging.com. You can also directly reach out to me at my email, which is my first initial, last name at gamerpackaging.com. So jgamer@gamerpackaging.com. And tip, and I started out at Gamer in new business development. So I worked with a lot of early brands. I still do do a lot of new business development today, but we have a new business development department now. So if I can't help you directly, I've got team members that do this day in and day out. And what I, and what I did encourage you is every conversation I have, I want to learn about your business. What makes us different at the end of the day is I'm never just going to simply offer you a stock list of options for you and say, take it or leave it. This is what we can offer. Over the 40 years that we've been in business, what has allowed us to be successful is getting creative with solutions. And in order to understand how we need to be creative, I want to hear out your entire story at that point, whether it's a financing situation, whether it's handling minimums, whether it's you going into a custom glass or a custom type package that you want to design, reach out to us and we'll have those conversations. And the one thing I can always commit is that if we aren't a good fit for a particular project, I'm always going to be upfront with that and do my best to point you in the direction of someone who might be a better fit. But in order to determine that, you got to have the conversation in the first place. And that's our job at the end of the day. Love it.

Wonderful. Thank you. A, again, B, Sam, Turn it over to you. Closing thoughts for this episode?

Yeah. So first of all, thanks for the education on the cans. I always thought that the whole thing was shipped in, you know, the lid and all. I didn't know there was some 2 costs to that. To have a follow-up on the top of this can in terms of just getting some more education. I got a couple people I work with that are trying to do some unique things with that. And then Jeff, we do see your, your question. So we'll get, uh, we'll answer it in the, um, the chat after the podcast. Unless we want to grab it really quick here, Adam, if you want to read it, we can do that as well.

I think he's just saying it from a, from a, uh, um, feedback standpoint. He said, we hear that. So Jeff and Peter, our friends over at Brandartica, so kind of an advertising and, you know, marketing design agency said, uh, great point, Adam. We hear that all the time from customers, meaning we don't have budget for marketing because we need to buy a machine. If you have a new machine, that's great, but why will you need it if you aren't selling your product? Right? So why will you need a super low COGS if you don't have money to move product? Which is a phenomenal point. I mean, again, I think as service providers or growth partners in the industry, it's something we all— it's a conversation we all try to have. Coke made a final comment. He said, Josh might not say it, but he has some experience with rapid growth curves and crazy verticals in the functional beverage sector, which could be Coke. I'm not sure which Josh you're referring to, but I have a couple in mind. And then Yen Min said, Wi-Fi keeps dropping out, might have to leave suddenly, but I'm thankful to you and Adam and Joey for the insights. Well, Yen Min, if you can hear us, we're appreciative of you for joining us. Yeah.

Yeah. So happy you found us, Ian. And love to have a conversation. We can get you on the podcast with us at some point.

Hell yes.

Cool.

Well, yeah, Sam, any other closing thoughts beyond the ends? Otherwise I'll wrap us up.

And I just, again, thank you so much, Joe. We need to break bread. We're in the same town for heaven's sake. So let's find the time to do that. Love to see your facility. And, you know, I think when you said 40 years, I'm like, I'm your grandpa, by the way. That's when I started in 1987. I graduated from college and started with the Jicella Winery. So you and grandpa and I can hang out together. Sure.

Sure.

Well, and I mean it in earnest, guys, this is, it's been a joy to be on with you. And I love that we have kind of live questions coming in because these are real questions that we get on a day-to-day basis. And there wasn't one of them that I heard today that seemed off base, But I just like talking about this stuff. We're passionate about it here. Clearly you guys are as well. So just, I appreciate you guys taking the time to have me on today as well.

Beautiful. Well, thank you everybody. I'll leave you with, with just that is, you know, as everything Joey said, you know, have a conversation, let somebody understand your story, be willing to be, you know, open and flexible to their feedback. 'Cause especially for, for the packaging conversation we had today, there's few people who, uh, or few groups who know or have done as much as the gamer folks. So, you know, So if you're able to get a conversation going with them, make sure you pay attention. With that, I'll leave it and let everybody get back to their Saturday and we can close it out. But enjoy your weekend.

See everybody. Bye-bye.

Bye, guys.