Welcome to our live show!

I'm in Chicago. Sam had vertigo yesterday, so you will see what you'll get from us. We may be a little out of sorts, but welcome to Jeff Frosland of— is it just Dapper Barons? Is there a the in there? Is it just Dapper Barons?

Perfect. Just Dapper Barons.

Welcome, sir.

Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Oh, you're welcome. Of course.

Um, before we get into it, uh, we'll, uh, we'll shout out other sponsors. Uh, Sam and Alicia with, uh, Bev Assets and Frontline, and now, now my new friend Paul, and myself and Alias Advising, and Ryan Halliman and On the Rocks Advisors. And Sam, where's our obligatory Freebird shot?

Got it right here.

I was like, did Jay get you fresh water yet?

No, I've got a couple more left here, so—

He's slipping, man. He's gonna lose his sponsorship deal.

This one's, uh, fresh.

Perfect. Uh, well, uh, thank you everybody for joining us. Uh, you know, looking forward to comments, questions, whatever you got this morning. But, uh, Jeff, and I got your— where'd it go? Oh, come on. But basically, you've been doing this, uh, this lower sugar Spirits. I'm way oversimplifying it. I'll let you get into the weeds, but lower sugar spirits in the Twin Cities since 2021, right?

Yeah, that's about right. Yep.

Perfect. So what was the impetus behind, like, like, I mean this in the nicest way, but I ask it of every brand owner I talk to, like, why, why this? Why not like a clothing brand or real estate or like why this specifically?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, great, great question. Well, it, it really goes back about 10 years ago. So I had been a cocktail enthusiast for a long time, but 10 years ago I really started focusing on low-carb, kind of keto lifestyle. And from that, I started to pay a lot closer attention to all the sugars and carbs that were in all the food and beverages that I was consuming. So again, as someone who liked cocktails, I had a lot of different spirits in my house, uh, you know, a whole liquor cabinet. Um, but I, you know, as I researched the, the nutritional profiles, I was really shocked when I found out that, um, standard liqueurs are, are half a bottle of sugar, uh, and they're just densely sweetened.

Bring that back. I love the, I love the, uh, I love the showcase. That's— yeah, does that say half a candy bar or 2 candy bars?

Uh, actually it says 12 candy bars.

Wow, wow.

Yeah, so this is, um, we do a lot of cocktail classes, and actually I, I could go dig up— I, I bring 12 candy bars with me, um, to show, and that's what we always start off is kind of saying like, how much sugar do you think is in a traditional liqueur like, you know, Kahlúa, Disaronno, and A lot of those ones, you know, a lot of people think like, oh, maybe like 1, 2, you know, thinking that, you know, candy already is so much sugar. And it's like, no, you look at a whole bottle like that, that's a lot. So, you know, you go and you put some of this in your coffee in the morning. You actually, if you're pouring 2 ounces of this into coffee, that's the same as a Hershey's candy bar.

Jesus Christ.

And, you know, a lot of times people are doing that thinking like, oh, you know, I'll treat myself to a little bit in the morning. But if you were to changed that perspective and said, you know, would you really treat yourself to like a whole candy bar with a cup of coffee? It would probably feel a little bit overindulgent.

Right.

So, so yeah, just going back to the history though, you know, I started thinking about it. I really liked making these cocktails, and it's like, if I could just match the sweetness of these liqueurs but use other types of sweeteners that bring down the sugar content, the carb content, that would, That would allow me to, you know, really have drinks that fit my, my new diet and lifestyle better. So I started experimenting with all sorts of different sweeteners, really focusing on the natural ones. So a variety of sugar alcohols like erythritol, xylitol, allulose, and plant-based sweeteners like stevia and monk fruit. And eventually I landed on a blend where the sugar content of our product looks more like this.

Wow.

Which you just kind of see down here at the bottom. So it's over 90% less than what you see in these traditional liqueurs.

Sure.

So I— yeah. And so my thought was like— oh, go ahead. Yeah.

I'm sure for you it seemed like hearing you say that, right? I talked to people, and I know Sam does too, but In RTD or even in CPG every day, it's like for the last whatever, 15 years, for me anyway, like probably longer, people, oh, sugar, we're going to switch to sucralose, stevia, erythritol, whatever. And so the fact that like, in my experience anyway, and this is— I'm trying to give you a huge compliment— like the fact that you were the first person to be like, yeah, but also the bottles, like you've taken it out of all the food, but it's still getting into your system via the cocktail you're having. That's right.

Like, that's right.

That's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember talking to you when you started your journey, by the way. Do you remember?

Yeah, yeah. Sam and I, uh, we've crossed paths over the years now. It's fun to, you know, it's been like multiple different venues, whether it was when you're during your Breakthru days and then again with the Bev assets. And, uh, you know, we're crossed paths again here, and maybe one of these days we'll actually have a true business partnership. Still waiting for the time to be right there.

Well, I mean, we should definitely, since we're in the same town, we all should just grab lunch one day for sure.

Yeah.

And do that. But I still have my bottles, you know, the smaller ones or whatever, which is pretty amazing.

Yeah, those version 1.0 is what you have there. And there's still a few of those left in the wild. I actually was looking around my home. I don't have any more of them. So they're, they're just, I need to get some just to be in an antique showcase someday. But, uh, but yeah, that's, that's how things started was, was with these liqueurs. And, you know, really the, the key thing is like we didn't, we didn't have a business plan. This wasn't like a, um, you know, you think about like big companies, like they're probably looking around at like market data and kind of like looking at patterns of things, say where do I, where do I kind of like create something new there.

Sure.

And, and for me, I just, I I was looking to create something that really fit my lifestyle. And sure, it wasn't until I started telling friends and family about what I was doing, they're just like, oh, that's really cool, could I buy some from you? Like, I'm like, what are you talking about?

And can we go through a timeline? This is really interesting because I've known you for quite a while, believe it or not. We've crossed paths for a few different reasons. But, uh, so when— so have you been at this 10 years plus?

Well, so I'd say as like a hobbyist, you know, it kind of goes back 10 years. It was 2020 was when I, you know, with the COVID shutdown, I was working full-time at 3M and we were actually forced to take vacations and furloughs. So I had a lot of extra time on my hands. I said, you know, why don't I really dig into this idea? And that's when I really like I have a— I still have my original lab notebook journal of all the different recipes, you know, hundreds of different combinations of things. And that's when I kind of nailed down something I thought was really good. And, um, and that's when I started to also do research of like, what would it take to bring something like this to market? So I called up other distilleries, and, you know, since everything was shut down, everyone was just sitting around and they had time to talk, which was You know, just really lucky timing. So, you know, I talked to the founder of Du Nord. He was one of the first people, had like an hour-long conversation like this, and he connected me to like 5 others. And I talked to them and they connected me with 5 others and, you know, got to know like what it would really take to bring spirits to market. Because again, I had no, no experience in the liquor industry.

So 2020, so when did you go first to market? When was your first product to market?

Yeah, yeah, and then, yeah, good, good point here. So 2020, you know, we're digging into all that, took about a year. It was 2021, it was September 2021 is when we officially got products on shelves, our first, you know, dozen sort of bottle shops around the Twin Cities.

Okay.

So it was about a year-long process to find the right partners to produce, get some licenses in place, you know, TTB registration.

So the entire year it took you, you got 12 bottle shops in one year?

Um, pretty much, yeah.

No, that's good. Hey, Jim, Jim, you know Jim Cook is from Boston Beer Company?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

You know, like, you mean how many accounts he got in Boston his first year?

Probably like one, or—

It was 30. It was 30. So I think your numbers are right on. We talked to so many founders, they come out You know, especially in our business up frontline. And they're like, yeah, we want to be in 1,000 stores this year. First of all, it's just not really— that's why I want, like, I want you to really be real with us, Jeff, because I know your product. Your product is great, right? So your first year you got to 12, right? Now you've been at it for what, 5+ years now?

Yeah.

Yep.

So you're going in year 6 really because you started like right out of COVID or whatever. How many, like, how many states are you in now? Take us through your journey, I guess. Like, if you don't mind, like, yeah, like year 1 to like year 2, like, can you like— accounts sold, markets opened up, mistakes? Yeah, I'd love to share that with us if you don't mind.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so, you know, year 1, like I say day 1, like September 1st, 2021, you know, we, we get into like 5 to 10 stores, and that I credit to our initial distributor we had at that point that, you know, made a lot of those connections. So You know, through that, through those next few months, we got up to maybe, you know, 20 or so. I'd say the next like 2 years there, about 2021 through 2023, it was just all like a learning process. So still, you know, got into a few more bottle shops here and there. We were still coming out of COVID so there wasn't even really a lot of marketing opportunities. A lot of stores weren't even doing tastings yet until like more like 2022, 2023.

So, you know, in a couple of years, were you in like 30, 40 accounts? Roughly.

I think that that's about what we got up to by about 2023. I'd say it was about like 30 to 40 accounts. Um, I was starting to research how to sell into other states, but really couldn't figure out how to do it at that point. Um, and we, uh, we went through a, you know, a difficult time. Our distributor then called us in 2023, like September. And they said, hey, we're cutting brands and you're cut.

Who were you with?

So it was called Libation Project.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, you're probably familiar with them. I mean, good people. We still cross paths all the time. And, you know, understand this stuff happens.

Jeff, the fact that you're here, sorry to interrupt, but the fact that you're here, you're successful because the failure rate, Year 1 is like 95%. So you beat the odds. So congratulations. Right. I mean, you have a great brand.

Yeah.

I mean, you're here and you're in the fight and you're building your business. That's why I want you to take people through the journey. So you're 23, you get this horrible news. Your supplier, your distributor lets you go, which is not unheard of. Distributors look at their dead and slow-moving inventory. No offense, but they look at the 365 and if it's not moving, They have to make that decision, right? Yeah, on your brand. So, so what'd you do? What, you had to pivot, it sounds like?

Yeah, so we had to pivot. Um, you know, we had a lot of things that I, I looked at as like fundamentals of like, okay, you know, maybe it doesn't work for them, but are— is our— is this idea like legit, or where's the problem here? And I, I think it really just wasn't a good fit with a lot of other priorities they had at the time, and that's, that's what I concluded. So We talked to other distributors, and that's the, you know, the difficult thing in the industry is that, you know, there's just not enough distributors for all the brands that are there. Liquor distributors don't grow on trees, and if we can't cut it with, with a small distributor like that, there's no way we're going to be talking to Breakthru and Johnson Brothers at that point. So we got to find another small distributor, and luckily we, we did. And we actually, we talked to our key accounts where where we were starting to get a lot of traction and starting to hear good things. And it was through those stores like Haskell's around here and Lund's.

I love it. So your customer, like the retailers, the accounts said, hey, I like this distributor. So they helped you. That's great.

Exactly. Yep. And they wanted to keep carrying our products and they're just like, hey, you know, I think the ones for what you're looking for, you should look at this place called Bourget Imports. And it was ironic because their offices are actually like a mile from my house. I just had never really put it all together. But I met with them and timing was great. The traditional like wine distributor wanted to get more into spirits, really loved having a local player, wanted to really partner and grow the business. So we quickly, as quickly as we could, you know, there was a gap of several months there and—

Yeah.

You know, I was thinking about it prior to the podcast. Like, unfortunately, we had worked up some really good on-prem accounts too that really liked our business, really liked our products, and I legally couldn't sell to them for a while. And there's just like nothing we could do about it. So just like kind of like evaporated a bunch of like basically all our on-prem business. But, you know, we got, we got going with Bourget and they really like took the con— took to the concept.

And who's running that over there nowadays? Who's the sales manager?

Yeah, so the owner is Annette Peters, sales manager is Vanessa Lasoskas. But yeah, the team is like Annette and Terry.

Okay.

So yeah, great reputation, great people in the market. So we, yes, through them we got up, we're, I don't know exactly the timeline, but basically over those next 2 years, like 2023, Until now, you know, we doubled that footprint around here. So got up to about 100 stores around Minnesota.

Now you're, now you're cooking, man. 100 stores.

Now we're cooking. Yeah.

Yeah. And by the way, those are 100 stores that are reordering. So you're not getting ghost distribution. So you're— these are 100 accounts that know your brand on the menu and you're getting promoted.

Yeah, exactly. And that's, you know, I think that's an important thing, you know, that reorder. As a small brand like, like us, it's just like another one of those fundamentals that I look at. So like last year, if I looked at 2025, all of the sales, 88% of those bottles sold were reorders into new accounts.

So 88% of your sales were reorders into the existing accounts or new accounts?

Into existing accounts.

88% reorder rate. That's amazing.

Yep. Yeah. And, you know, we have a bunch of SKUs and it varies a little bit by SKU in terms of which ones move as fast. But, you know, the way I look at it is like when I look at all my sales, our accounts buying and/or like growing into our portfolio because they like what they're seeing. And then especially like on-prem, you know, to me, like if we sell a bottle into a bar and it's sitting in the back bar and it's not being used. I don't care about that. So that doesn't do anything to help the brand. What I care about is getting on the menus. Is it in cocktails that are taste— they taste good, so people order more of those and they're keeping it on the menu? And that's exactly what we've seen.

Right.

So like, that's, that's why like I know that people like our product. They're coming in and we're doing a lot now to generate that pull-through. So we do tons of events and I'm happy to— we'll dive into that aspect as well. But Like, I think a lot of these brands, you know, big brands, unfortunately, it's almost like a pyramid scheme where, you know, you can spend a lot of money up front, you, you get a lot of, uh, placements, but if you don't have that pull-through, like, eventually it gets moved to clearance, it gets dumped. And—

Well, people would, people would arrive at Breakthru talking to me, and a lot of suppliers are like, what's your universe of accounts that you call on? Was the first question a supplier will ask us.

Yeah.

Okay. Who, who, how many Tito's accounts do you sell to? That's the second question they ask us. And then the statement they make, they want to be in 80% of Tito's accounts. And we'd look at them and go, why?

Yeah.

You can't afford to be in 80% of Tito's accounts.

Right.

But oftentimes a distributor will have done the disservice, will say, okay, we'll do it. This is what it's going to cost you to do it. We need incentives, we need dealer loaders, we need to do some price discounting. And then we'll talk to someone like you, Jeff, and they're like, holy cow, I don't have that kind of money to support that. I'm like, exactly. So now how many accounts do you really want to be in and how many accounts can you support?

Right?

Yeah, right.

Guys, real quick, I got to jump in with— James asked a question. He said— James Warren, which again, thank you for joining us this morning, James. He said, I'd be curious from Jeff's point of view. What's the lesson he learned back then that is still paying dividends now? How did they get through that difficult experience of the distribution setback? So you answered a little bit already, but I'd be curious, like, there's a lesson you learned then that's still, you know, that kind of stays top of mind now that helps you get through situations like that?

Yeah. Well, you know, I think the number one thing is fit, you know, with your distributor. Is it the right fit?

Mm-hmm.

You know, when the first distributor severed things, it was a time of reflection of like, what's really going on with our brand. But it was very motivating to talk to people, 'cause we just started to kind of figure things out. We were just starting to do more events. And that's where, you know, this like Haskell's has been a good partner to us here. they're like, you know, this, this isn't the end for you guys. Like, we just got to get you with another distributor and, you know, we'll help you connect the dots. And they, you know, they, they were a great, um, referral, you know. So having that on our side with the resume to say, like, you know, we're, we're in a, you know, baseline of places, you know, 30, 40 places or so.

Yep.

And we have an account like Haskell's who's like vouching for us and saying, hey, these guys are actually out there. We're doing tastings. People like our products. We like our product, you know, the Dapper Baron's products. That was, that was a big thing. So, you know, it was fit. And then, you know, Bourget was a great fit for us as well for where we were at. And we actually just moved again. We had a very, very difficult conversation with Bourget. In case they're listening or hear this at some point, want them to know this is, you know, we appreciate everything that they've done for us, but we recently moved again to Maverick. another distributor here in the area. And it's one that we just feel like from a fit perspective of what we're going for and where they're at and, you know, where Borge is at now, this is just a fit conversation.

So Johnson didn't buy Maverick in Minnesota, I guess, so they still exist here?

Correct.

Okay, got it.

Correct. Yeah, and Illinois, actually. So, um, so that's where we see some upside as well, is that working with Who's running the Maverick operations here? You might know the name. His name is Mike Steffel.

Okay.

He's been in the industry for about 25 years or so. He worked in Minnesota, I believe it was at Johnson Brothers, for quite some time, but then he moved to California. He was representing some wine groups out there and then came back to to lead the Minnesota branch of Maverick.

What I love about Maverick is, by the way, just to call them out, I worked with them with Altamar Brands before they got bought in Texas, and they had the best on-premise people. I mean, hands down. And Texas is a really hard market. I don't know if you know. I know we have to tell you what markets you're in, but Texas is Class B. But these guys had the radar on to how to get it once the restaurant said yes to go to the Class B to get that order filled. They were really good and they had this total respect when they'd walk in. These guys would do like the beverage list, you know, appointments. I mean, very professional. I think it's one of the best craft operations for a distributor in North America, to let you know. So.

Well, yeah. Well, so glad they have good operations going there. And yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, well, we're excited for what's ahead there and Yeah, and again, it all just kind of goes back to the question from our listener there, is just finding who's the right fit at the right time. And maybe that's a good segue too to some of the other states that we've looked at.

Yeah, where are you at now currently? So where's your footprint?

Yeah, so we're mainly in Minnesota, Michigan, and if you were to dig hard enough, You can find us in some places in Wisconsin, California, and Florida. I'd say those, those bottom 3 have been a little bit more like test sites, although we have done more activity in Wisconsin than the others. But it, like, we've been actively working on Michigan quite a bit. And that's, that's a unique one. I'm sure, Sam, in your experience with it being a control state, like, you probably know the ins and outs. Um, you mentioned Texas. So I have an older brother that lives in Texas. Um, so I, I did, um, he connected me with some people there, had some conversations. Just as you said, a complicated market, and I didn't even know the name for it. I guess maybe Class B. I'm guessing that's the fact that like the bars technically have to buy—

Yeah, Class B. Yeah, yeah. So the, the, the packaged liquor stores, they sell, they have a Class B license to sell to the bars. So there's distributors down for spirits. Now for Yeah, for beer and wine they can for sure, but exactly.

Yeah, yeah, spirits in particular is tough. And then I, I believe to get an out-of-state shipping license there too, I think it's closer to like $2,000. So it's— you have to kind of know what you're doing if you're gonna go in there. But, um, yeah, you know, California and Florida are unique ones. That was, uh, just kind of opportunistic areas where it's, it's very easy to get a low-cost out-of-state shipping permit. So you can, you can send products in. And dating back to around like that 2023 timeframe, uh, just for fun, I tried like applying our products at Total Wine and, and we were approved at like a handful of Total Wines in both of those states. So, Yeah. We were able to get some product out there, but, but, um, you know, when you're not out there supporting it, Uh, it's, it's hard to get any good velocity. So again, it was just—

Well, you're talking about that, right? And that's one of the questions I posted last night is the realities of distribution and route to market. So you're talking about your route, right? And you talked about how you began.

Yeah.

Here in Minnesota, you know, from Libations to Beaujolais, and now you're with Maverick. Like, that's in a matter of like 5 years, right? Kind of-ish.

Yeah.

Timing.

Yeah.

So your journey, and then you're like, hey, I'm, I'm over in Michigan. Uh, you know, you can find us in spots in Wisconsin. So core is Minnesota. Now you're starting to put some spots up on the map. Are you doing that through DTC by chance, direct-to-consumer? Like, how are you getting those spots? Are you just getting a small little distributor to get them to play with it? Like, what's your— like, how are you going to market to activate in those, like, Michigan, Wisconsin, those, those other markets?

Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, you know, the Florida and California, actually it did start with DTC. See opportunities. We, we actually signed up with a company called Reserve Bar, and you can still find our products on there. And the way that works, uh, for listeners who might not be familiar, it feels like you're on Amazon for liquor and just buying stuff online, but what's really happening is that your order is being funneled to a store of some sort, and a liquor store is fulfilling that order. So that's happening behind the scenes, and they—

Mm-hmm.

work with stores that are strategically in California and Florida because it's very easy for suppliers to ship their products into those stores and then have them ship out.

So has that been your path though to get into Michigan? Is that how you're creating your path through DTC? Well, not—

so that kind of got us into some stores in California and Florida. DTC, I'd say overall, like it helped fulfill some orders because early on when we started, we worked with some influencers and we got a lot of questions like, where can I get your product? You know, in all sorts of different states. So we wanted some way to ship. So that's why we went with Reserve Bar. Michigan is very unique. So I'm actually from Michigan originally. My business partner, also from Michigan originally. Grew up there, you know, lived there for the first, you know, 22, 25 years of our lives. So we still have networks there, friends and family. And from that, we thought, okay, maybe there's a way we can have a little bit more demand there than usual. And with it being a control state, you basically have no barriers to entry. So it's sort of like the opposite problem of what you have in a state like Minnesota, you know. So, and I was saying before that distributor dropped me, now I can't sell. Well, in Michigan, once you're registered in the state, which basically anyone can register, it only takes, you know, like 30 days or so for approval, any store can just buy your product, and that's, that's all there is to it. Like, there, there's no friction with distribution. There's no loyalties. It's not like, oh, you know, I only buy from this distributor, and because I like Jimmy, you know, he comes in every week. So I—

That does happen in markets, by the way, just to be transparent.

Yes, exactly, exactly. We know all about it here. So, um, so it's like, okay, as long as product is there, you have to— it's kind of complex. You have to ship product first. You don't get paid until it actually sells. But anyone can go into any liquor store and say, I want to request a product. But we— it's been a learning process with that because although you have zero friction and zero barriers to entry, you don't get any propulsion from your distributor either. So here, you know, as I said, like even when we started with Libation, you know, they had you know, some key accounts, and they just kind of like got our initial placements like that. And then Bourget going to them, they had their favorite accounts that just like all of a sudden we landed in a bunch more places. You get zero of that in Michigan. You are driving 100% of it because you don't have distributor sales reps out there. Or you can get a brokerage firm and you pay an arm and a leg to like spend anything that you're potentially going to make in profit to just go towards their incentives. And it, it's a—

what's it like? So like, what's the, what's the cost for like— is it like a Southern has a brokerage there, RNDC has a brokerage? Basically you pay like a percent per case. What is it, like a couple bucks a case or something?

Yeah, yeah. So, um, it's actually all like state mandated. So there's only 3 distributors and the distributors only do logistics. So actually RNDC is our distributor, but again, that's only like logistics. And then you have these brokerage firms. So we work with the brokerage called Benchmark, very nice people. You have to have like a brokerage aligned with the distributor to kind of get the certification to get in there. So you pair up like that, but for brokerages, you know, there's not really a whole lot of incentives to say no to a supplier.

Yeah.

Because, all right, well, hey, if you're a supplier, you want to sell in here, like It's up to you. Like, you ship a bunch of product in, and if it's here, like, sure, we'll just go tell people about it. And their, their cut is all state mandated. So they have a spreadsheet, actually, the state gives you that says, like, figure out what do you want to sell at, what do you want your shelf price to be. Shelf prices are all controlled by the state. You know, there's a minimum shelf price that everything can sell at. Stores can make it higher if they want. But you kind of base it on that. And then all the bars buy at the state price as well.

Wow.

So you can do the math pretty well there. The problem is that since everyone has the same, uh, you know, the, the brokers are all getting that same cut from everything, and distributors are getting the same cut. If you want your broker to give you more attention, you, you need to pay them on top of that. And that's kind of where the market is of like Like, okay, you know, my incentive to push a bottle of Dapper Barons versus pushing a bottle of Kahlua, what's gonna incentivize me? It's like, I'm gonna have to pay on top of whatever the state mandated, uh, you know, margins are.

And how many brands do these brokers have in Michigan, by the way? I'm just curious. They have like—

I mean, just like hundreds and thousands, and I mean, of SKUs at least. Uh, You know, so I took another trip to Michigan just earlier this year in February, and it's been a long time since I've been there. And certainly when I was living there, I just hadn't paid as close of attention to the way spirits work. And it's just fascinating. So on top of all this, there are zero volumes. So any sort of levers there can't work that. And with all those state-run distributors, there's zero delivery fees. So Think about this now. If I'm a liquor store owner and I never pay delivery fees, I have zero incentive to buy any sort of volume. I buy one bottle at a time, and I put that one bottle on my shelf, and when that sells, I buy another bottle, and it just shows up a few days later. So you think about that now. It's like, if I— so I went around to all these stores, I talked to the store, they're like, okay, you know, this is cool. And I you know, show them, this is what our stuff looks like now, by the way. Like, here's our espresso martini, zero sugar, super unique. And they're like, oh yeah, you know, espresso martinis are really popular. Oh, okay, I'll get a bottle. Put a bottle on the shelf. And they have these shelves of thousands of products as well with just one bottle, like, all throughout there. And then it's just the, the culture, because again, like, the incentive is so low to to have any sort of volume, and, or like multiples of anything. So yeah, and like if one of the neighbor— if the neighboring bottle shop only has 100 products, but the one next to that has 500, and it's everything in the spirits book, people would be like, well, I'll just go to the one that has 500 because I can find it all there. And that's it. So you think about All those visits, you're going place by place. Your upside potential is that you get a sale of one bottle onto that shelf. So it takes a long time to really get any sort of scale and volume. And if you want them to get more of your products, they're only going to do that if it's like, well, I mean, unless you're selling multiple bottles a day, why, why am I going to bring in more than this? So very, very challenging from that angle.

Amazing. That's the reality, though. Um, talk about like, um, like what's the best way? So you've done this journey, like how do you activate? Like how do you go to market for your brand? How do— like in Minnesota, you've had great success. You have, you know, Maverick's a great distributor as well as Beaujolais and Libations. You've worked with these great partners. Um, how do you go to market here today? Like what's— like you're doing well, you're getting accounts, you get the 88% reorder What's your market?

Yeah, so we're gaining momentum, and what's really helping us punch outside our weight class is our liquids-to-lips engagement. That's like, I've talked to many people in the industry, maybe Sam, you were one of the ones that told me this too, I don't remember now, but there's just nothing better than liquid to lips. Like, it's the most important thing you can do. And when we started, you know, we tried different like digital ads and stuff, and just none of that, none of that gives you the ROI. So I've worked really hard. I share this with any other distributor or like distillery around here. I have a very curated list of all the different possible sampling events that happen in Minnesota each year.

Oh wow.

And this is everything from like Taste of Maple Grove, Taste of White Bear Lake, You know, Shriners fundraiser here, community fundraiser there. Like, there's all these things, and it's difficult because there's not a list like this out there. You can try ChatGPT, it won't find them either. It's just from like hearing about this for, for a few years and then finding who the organizers are, reaching out early enough to get a table. But, you know, the nice thing is that most of these are free, and that's what I tell my peers. It's like, you should be at all these things. Like, but— They're free and you get to talk to consumers about your product.

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, some of the really big ones, there's table fees and stuff, but most of them are free. They're huge opportunities. And I've, I've used those opportunities to establish closer partnerships with liquor stores that are nearby wherever that event is being held. And I'll talk to that liquor store and say, hey, I'm going to be at this event, you know, on Saturday. would you be interested in carrying some products? Because I think this is going to generate interest right in your immediate area. Usually that, you know, that works there. And if they say, you know what, no, I don't know, maybe you'll generate interest, maybe not. I'm like, how about we do this? Could I print out a piece of paper and ask people to sign up and say, I will buy this product from this store, and I will give you those papers afterwards? Would you then carry products? And it's like, okay, sure. Yeah. I mean, if you want to do it that way, it's fine.

So at your tasting, let me make sure I'm just following. So you go to this tasting event, you get the piece of paper, you talk to the people, hey, you like this? Can you give me an email that you're interested in this product? And then you took that piece of paper, went to the store and said, I just talked to 30 consumers that want the product that'll come to your store.

Yep, exactly. That's exactly right.

And has that been— and, and what's your, what's your conversion rate on that with the store? Pretty high?

Pretty, pretty high. Pretty high. I know, of course, some people overcommit and everything, but, um, I'd say it's at least 80%. And, and so we call it pre-ordering, the pre-order process. So I say you can pre-order, um, and actually the stores love it. Um, the stores that have done this, they've, they've said, yeah, like After they see the results, they're like, are you doing any more events? And like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do a lot more events. Like, okay, well, just, just let them know that they can work with you.

You found the secret formula, path to market. I'll go to this event, the event's free. I'll talk to consumers, get them to sign up for it and go back to the gatekeeper and say, look, I got 30 consumers or 100 consumers that just tasted it, are ready to buy right now. Here's their email.

Yeah. Exactly. So then the stores call them up. So the stores bring in the product, then they call them up and say, hey, I got your order ready, come on and pick it up. So they go—

By the way, ChatGPT didn't do that for them. That was actually human-to-human combat. Just for everybody.

That was all, that was all human-to-human combat. So it's, it's great. And, you know, I actually have talked to the stores. So after we did a few of those, I said, hey, what if you offer a discount as well? And I'll tell them, hey, sign up now. and preorder and commit with your email, your phone, and you'll get a discount as well. And, and that's, that's helped incentivize people to do that. And the stores are, again, they're all for it. It's just like immediate sales. And you know what I've kind of said to this?

That's value to the store. So many people walk in and say, hey, I'm Bobby, the, the beer manager. Will you buy my product? I got like this. But you're like, hey, I have 30 consumers that are ready to buy the product. I just need you to carry it.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then they see like, hey, you know, I've got, you know, because we've got a lot of products. I've got an espresso martini, we've got, you know, amaretto. They might say, all right, well, I got like one order for an amaretto, but I had like 10 people get espresso martini. Okay, you know what, let's fulfill that 10, and why don't I get an extra case and I'll just put that on the shelves because now I can see that's actually, you know, good with my market here.

Wow.

So you get like the sales from the event, You now get a, you know, often a new placement or additional placements. And that's, that's the type of thing like going back to what we said earlier on, like the pull-through, the organic interest. Like, I know that it's there in this product. Like, this is—

Well, that's why you have an 88% reorder rate though, because you're working the consumer and you're making sure that you're getting them, driving them into the account. And then I'm assuming, how do you reward the account to support you? Is that the reward? Hey, I got 30 consumers. Is that a reward or do you do anything Anything else to reward the account to get behind you?

No, it's, uh, I kind of look at it as, as me choosing that account versus the one down the street to do that pre-order program with. Like, I, I actually think the more we do this, it's, it's good. It's a privilege to be part of our pre-order program.

Yeah.

So we have, we have a sign and we say, well, here's the, you know, different accounts that are part of our pre-order program today. Um, and, you know, if you want your favorite liquor store to be part of it, have them talk to us. Yeah, it's a, it's a really good—

Hey, where do you, where, what, who's your, who's your customer you prefer to buy the product at?

Yeah, yeah, that's what, well, that's what we, so we've had, you know, some of the one names on the list like Haskell's, like all the Haskell's ones, um, Lund's, and I talked to the category manager. He said, yep, you can put all the sites on here and, you know, I'll talk to the managers that if someone wants to get it from a Lund's site there. That's fine. And, and then, you know, just a variety of other independent ones. So I try to cover the entire metro. So at some of these bigger events, um, you know, like when we do like Food and Wine and Grill Fest where we're getting, you know, thousands of people all around the metro, I can say, well, where do you live? Let's find a store that's convenient to you from the list. Okay, here's your order form for Haskell's White Bear Lake. Oh, you're in—

You know what's amazing about this is you have a full-time job and you, you've built this brand.

Oh, well, thank you.

How many hours a week do you put into this brand? Like, honestly, like, are you doing 40 hours a week? Like, like, what are you doing to build this brand?

Depends if my Medtronic, uh, folks are listening or who knows. But, uh, but I, I'd say it like, it, it's just, it, you know, it kind of depends week to week. But yeah, I would say at least 20 hours. Um, and it, it actually dovetails really nicely with the full-time job because My, my day job is pretty heavy like Monday through Wednesday, and then as you see it, the Thursday and Friday, it, you know, tapers down a little bit. And then all this other stuff though, when it comes to all these events, uh, that all tapers up starting Thursday through the weekend.

So, so I mean, I love the math, right? There's 162 hours in a week. You give your employer 40 to 60 of that 162. There's still a lot more hours on the table for you to go build your dream, right? You know?

Yeah.

Which is fantastic. I wish I would have done what you did because when I went in and I was working for the man, I was like working 80 to 120 hours a week for the man and barely sleeping and, uh, and going all in. So that's what you just shared is you can have a business, still be loyal to your employer and deliver on your promises. And bring something to market like Baron's, which leads me to my next question, kind of change the subjects, but I'm assuming for Better For You, you showed that half bottle with sugar and then you showed your bottle is— and I think you answered this earlier, actually I'm answering my own question— is you, you wanted to find something good for yourself because of your lifestyle.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, that's what it all started with, is like something that I would enjoy. And I actually still get questions when we do all these events. People are like, well, what's your favorite product? And it's like, well, I created them all so they tasted delicious to me. So I really can't choose a favorite. They're, to me, they're all perfect.

But it—

It's something that, again, like, this wasn't a business plan idea. It started with really a passion and love for cocktails and wanting to have this better-for-you profile. And I think that everything is moving in this direction though, and it's really a positive time, you know, with all the negativity around the alcohol industry, and you just see so much consumption go down. I think that what people are looking for are just better options that fit the more modern lifestyle. And it's all age groups. I actually feel like we do both. They're the ones that are more familiar with liqueurs and a lot of these classic cocktails. And they're ones that are really conscious of their sugar for a variety of health reasons. We have—

Yeah.

Unfortunately, diabetes epidemics. And I have all sorts of stats on our website if you're interested.

Yeah. Well, how do people, how do people find you actually?

You know, that's, that's definitely an important category, but even the younger folks too. I mean, younger. Yeah. Like the way when I was growing up more in the '80s and '90s, you know, the health guidance from the FDA was the food pyramid and at the base was carbs and grains and rice. And it said, you know, have 12 servings of this a day. And now earlier this year, the FDA flipped that around. And now the guidance is it's all about meats, vegetables, have a very small amount of carbohydrates and especially processed foods or anything like that. So I think people are really shifting their consumer preferences. A stat that really shocks me is that now 60% of beverages on the market are sugar-free. So sugar-free used to be the alternative for the health nuts. Sugar-free is now the norm. That is what people want.

Well, that's—

that—

so that brings me to a question, and, and I have to make a comment first. So months ago, I had a, a non-alc functional brand who was trying to get into gyms, and he said, he said, these gyms will come in and let me do tastings there with their members, but they don't want to carry my product. Like, they won't place an order yet. Okay. And he's asking me, he's like, how do I, how do I, you know, get around that? I'm like, dude, I'm the ops guy. Like, I don't fucking know. He goes, well, I can't afford to bring anybody else on and I still need your help for ops. So like, help me, right? Just come up with an idea.

Yeah.

Okay. So just in the interest of getting creative, I was like, look, take— I literally told him what you just said. I was like, take a signup sheet. It's a gym. Like, just ask people, hey, if this product was carrying here, would you buy one on your way out of the gym? You know, and not even the way you did it of like pre-ordering it, but just to like show interest to the gym. Like, hey, these 50 people at least said on paper that they would buy it, right?

Exactly.

And so it's validating for me to hear that, you know, obviously you took it a step further with the pre-order and, and, you know, I didn't have that idea, but it's validating to hear that even just the impetus or the start of that thought process holds weight. Right.

Um, yeah, so that's—

yeah, super cool, and I'm definitely going to continue to tell that story. I think the question I have is like, when you get pushback from people— I mean, to what you just said, I've been thinking about this the whole time we've been talking. So sugar-free is the norm, you know, the functionals, the health-forward beverages are more and more and more prevalent. Like, when you get pushback from people saying like, yeah, I don't want to carry it. Why? Like, what's the— because, yeah, I have to assume if I'm that person, like, oh, a healthier, like, much less sugar spirit, how could it not sell? You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know it's, it's something that still, uh, still gets frustrating. And I, I think that, you know, I reflect on it in a few ways. Like, when it comes to these cocktails that are like zero sugar, I do feel like there's so much in the value there. Like, how can you say no? I think one of the things is that people are skeptical about the flavor and the taste.

Sure.

So when they see zero sugar, what comes to mind is like Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi. And with those products, you're sacrificing something in taste or whatever that, you know, people just don't really like the difference of not being normal. So I think there's a lot of skepticism, but that can be overcome pretty quickly if you're like, okay, just try it. Like, if you— once you try it, you'll see this tastes really good. And we've also submitted these to all sorts of spirits competitions. We've won medals for all of them. So like, that's a big thing. But, you know, I think the other aspect that I still haven't figured out, and it's kind of as the, you know, the newbie to the market, is just the market dynamics of a store wanting to see brands do like all sorts of support with, you know, are you going to have like signage? Are you going to— what type of deals are you going to give me?

Sure.

And like all of that stuff is very distracting. And if you're like, I'm just trying to like sell you a product, normally.

Right.

As cool as it sounds, they have a lot of other things that sound cool. Their attention just goes to the things of like, well, I can do all these like specials with these other brands. And then I think the last thing is just like the first mover disadvantage here of like with it being so new.

Yeah.

What people usually say is like, well, I've never seen a product like this. And that's because when people start drinking, they don't care about their sugar. And, you know, although I know that's not true for all sorts of personal data and research I've done, plus, you know, market stats that are to the contrary, I think that with it being new, that it just introduces a new level of skepticism that despite how good it tastes, despite the competitive price, despite all that, they're just like, well, because it's not out there already, it's because people don't want this.

Right.

And that's not true.

That's true, yeah.

So kind of overcoming that inertia is the challenge. Sure.

No, it's a very real answer. I just, I had to ask. I'm like, I mean, when I tasted it at the Pitch Slam, I was like, you know, if I was going to get— not that I carry a ton of like Baileys, but when I do go get something, it's usually Baileys.

Yeah.

You know, when it comes to a liqueur or something, like, why would I not? You know, like if that was on the shelf and I saw that right next to or close enough to the Baileys, you know, maybe I don't walk in knowing that that's what I'm looking for, but like, oh, I'm going to get Baileys. And I realized, oh, huh, because I do the same shit at the grocery store with ketchup or whatever other thing, or, you know, barbecue sauce.

Absolutely.

I love barbecue sauce. I don't need there to— like, I like it unsweetened, so, you know what I mean? Or like less sugar, you know?

So yeah, yeah, you don't want it. I don't think anyone likes overly cloyingly sweet things. Like, that's the thing is that sugar is basically free in this country or in this world. Like, it's so, so cheap. So the more of that that you can pack into products, it's just like filler that's free. So that's where everyone kind of goes. And that's why, you know, the more sugar and water that you can pack into a bottle, you're just getting more margin out of that. And yeah, it's difficult. I think that the, you know, going back to what you were saying, just like the the skepticism about around this and like, like, why would, why would you not just buy this? You know, we've had a chance to talk for like 50 minutes here. If I had that same opportunity to talk to any of these restaurant PR, whether it's a restaurant or like a category manager, I'm sure that if they sat down and really thought about it, they'd be like, wow, this does just make so much sense and it's a craft product. But when you have like 30 seconds to get in front of someone and be like, hey, I've got an espresso martini, it's really good and it's zero sugar.

Sure.

It's like, okay, well, what are you gonna do for me again? Like, how many— what's the sale price? And, you know, that's what's my kickback gonna be?

And I think even just that, whether you intended it this way or not, I think that's a really— it's a story I'll end up sharing as well. It's a really interesting point of like, you know, because Sam and I beat this horse to death constantly with people of like, hey, it's going to take several touch points You know, follow-up is the name of the game, right? Like consistency is key, all these things. And we beat that horse to death and we're such broken records about it. But the way you just framed it is really useful in like, hey, if I had a single hour of somebody's time and could, you know, lock them in a room and walk them through all the benefits of my product and the this and that and the data I've got and so on, I could probably convince them in one shot. But nobody's got an hour to give to anybody anymore. So I've gotta get an hour's worth of—

Right.

time in 30 to 60 second increments and do the math on how many visits that's got to be based on that. Right.

That's a great way of thinking about it. Yeah.

You know, well, you gave it to me, so thank you. Right. Like, but that's, it's, it's really simple math of like, yes, you know, to Sam's earlier point, he and I lament on this all the time. Brand's going, well, you know, how many people have you talked to? How many accounts have you closed? It's like, Yeah, once I've talked to them for a cumulative 60 minutes, 90 minutes, 120 minutes, then you can start getting up my ass about, hey, why hasn't the sale closed? But when I've only talked to them once for 3 minutes, we've not hit that threshold where we've had a deep enough conversation. So it's going to take multiple instances, right?

Oh yeah. I mean, how many— what's the average account touches that you would do to get them to say yes, Jeff?

Well, I've thought about this. When it comes to like on-prem where you're really trying to like convince them of the flavor and all the benefits and you're like waiting at the timing of menu changes. I mean, most of our on-prem accounts, I've been talking to them for like a year before they buy and it's probably like 3 to 10 interactions. It's just that sales cycle is so long.

So 3 to 10 interactions, a year to buy, timing of menu. There's a lot of factors that people don't consider. They just say, think, hey, I'm just gonna go out and, and, uh, you know, the place here in Prior Lake, you know, Charlie's or whatever on the lake, which is a great place.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

On the menu, right? I mean, they'll talk to you, but it's like, well, yeah, but my menu doesn't change for another 4 months, whatever.

Yeah, yes, yeah. Between all those things, it's, it's a long sales cycle with them and a lot of like repeat interaction. And, and that's You know, that's the challenge. You know, that's where your distributors kind of get involved, and because they're the ones that are probably talking to them every week at least to, um, you know, get reorders and all that. So it's a, uh, that, that's a, that's a challenging one as like a brand owner like this. I can only be so many places, and it's, uh, it's difficult. The stores, you know, that's where, uh, it started like that as well. It could take a lot of touch points, but really for the stores, They're just looking for a convincing argument of why is this going to sell. And I've almost kind of like pivoted the conversations that although I love the integrity of the product and everything about it, they are much more eager to hear a story of like, I'm going to do an event down the street next week, and it's going to get all this interest. And you kind of go down that direction, then it's like, I don't care if you're selling zero sugar espresso martinis or— Full sugar pickle juice, watermelon spritz, like whatever. If you think it's going to sell and you're going to do all that hard work for me and all I have to do is just take orders, then fine, I'll do it. So like that's, that's kind of the dynamic I see between the, you know, on and off.

Amazing. You want to take the ask?

You want to ask our—

you're good.

Yeah, I was like, you take it.

Yeah. So as we wrap up, a couple of things, Jeff, we got an important question and then we'll ask you if there's anything else we need to cover off with our audience today. So first of all, thanks for joining us. Yeah, we ask everybody that comes on Drink Up this question. What's the difference between success and failure?

Oh yeah, good. Good question. I mean, I think success, for me, I'd say success is meeting the expectations that you set for yourself. Failure, I feel like you only fail if you stop learning and like you just kind of like put that on yourself. Like, I feel like anytime I felt like I've failed at something, as long as you've learned and you move on from it, it's really not failure. It's just all a learning experience. So that's how I would, I would look at it.

What keeps you going?

I'd say when it, when it comes to the drinks business like this, it's all those events and the reactions of people, and particularly like the eye-popping reactions when they see this. Um, you know, I love cocktail classes, are my favorite thing to do. Um, you know, going back to our conversation earlier, when I can get, you know, a solid half hour in front of people, tell the story, show the visuals, the reactions are often like, I'm never gonna buy anything else again other than Dapper Barons. Like, why, why would I?

Yeah.

And it's like, okay, I've created something that really people just fall in love with and go crazy about. Like, I, I just, I, I think The sky's the limit. I'm really excited to see what's next. And that's what keeps me going is like, I just— there's good things in the future coming here and I want to be there to see it.

Well, I love your website. It says you have a purpose and your purpose is to get sugar out of people's bodies and actually drink better for you, a product that you came and you developed. Is there anything— so as we go around the table, is there anything that we did not cover today, Jeff, that you would like to convey to our audience? Before we wrap up?

Yeah, I think we covered all the big ones of, you know, just understanding your purpose and mission behind the product when it comes to the liquor industry, the unique differences from state to state, control states versus free market states. And then I'd say that just the biggest thing is like distribution and like that side of the market. They can control of that, the influence of distributors like that. You just can't underestimate that. And if anyone's ever new to the industry, I think anyone who's new to the industry underestimates that until they really live through it on their own. And then the market activations, like, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about all the strategies we have there.

They've been— it's been a masterclass, actually, about how successful those have been. Yeah, it's been a masterclass exactly in terms of how you go to market. So I very much appreciate you sharing and learning with everybody. Um, so thanks, Jeff. Thanks for joining us. Uh, just going around the room, Adam, any closing thoughts from you?

I mean, I think Jeff just hit the nail on the head, as did you, right? Like, this is— these are the kind of— not that I don't enjoy every conversation we have, but these are the kind of conversations that I want to just take and force, you know, like, like middle school, you know, film day when the teacher's got to hang up Right? Like, just force my clients to watch it on like, yeah, when I tell you, go talk to people, you, someone you like, when I tell you make a list, like, I'm not bullshitting you. This is how it works, right? This is a prime example of how it's successful, the numbers to it, slow and steady shit that's gonna happen. Distributors are gonna break up with you. That's okay. You know, like, it's, yeah, it's just Your insights have been very useful, so thank you.

Yeah, very, very, very thoughtful, very open. We're wishing you great success. For me, you know, your mission— when you have a mission and a purpose, that really resonated with me. And I've talked to you a few times, obviously, over the years, which is great to see you still, you know, living the dream, man. And anything that I can do personally to help you, just let me know. Happy to do that anytime, Jeff.

Thank you.

So thank you so much for coming on. I'm so glad that you, you joined us today because it truly is a masterclass in how to go to market. And as Adam said, is if you're patient and you're persistent and you show up, you can be successful. And you're gonna, you're gonna have distributors fire you, you're gonna have customers delete you, but you stayed in the game and you stayed in the fight. And I, I think it's just, it's just awesome that you shared what the realities are and how to go to market. And we wish you great success. With that, we'll wrap up today. Jeff and Adam, please remain on the line and we'll call it a Saturday. And until next week, Adam and I will be back. And Jeff, you're forever alumni, so you're always welcome back.

Thank you. Appreciate it, guys.

Thanks, everybody.

Take care.

Have a good Saturday.