The Untold Culture of Silicon Valley & Starting Patreon | Lessons from Sam Yam

Yeah, everyone rejected us on Patreon when we first launched, but we're like, well, we still are excited about this idea.

You're the president and CTO of Patreon, overseeing platform's architecture, payment structure, user analytics, and product innovation.

We put a lot of hard work to get to where Patreon is today, right? We send over $2 billion a year to creators now. We have over 300,000 creators making money How did it feel?

Did it check those boxes for you, or it provided a different experience?

It just felt like Patreon was this opportunity to allow the accessibility of pursuing your passion and being an artist.

Everything was going well till the fires happened, and obviously it was a big shock to the community. I want to say nobody saw it coming.

I had already started establishing a life there, and I didn't suspect that, you know, this would be the outcome.

On this journey, have you ever felt Have you ever felt like giving up? Have you ever felt like really down where it was hard for you to pick yourself back up?

It's an excuse in the sense that, well, what are you going to do about it?

Or how are you recalibrating to where you're going next?

That sort of relentlessness in some sense, I think, is important. Otherwise, you just never get there to a place that could potentially work.

How come when you're talking about these failures and challenges, you're so easygoing and you're so graceful about it?

Yeah, this one's tricky.

Sam Yam, welcome.

Thank you. Yeah, it's great to be here.

Uh, we are so excited to have you. Um, I've been looking forward to this conversation, uh, given what you have accomplished, the company that you're part of, uh, and it's a platform that we personally use as well. And I just feel like we're going to cover very broad and different subjects, but I want to quickly give a little bit of an introduction on who you are. So you were born in Iowa City. Lived in Pittsburgh, moved to Stanford, and that's where you went to college. And there you founded a few companies, AdWorld being one of them. And then you met your, at the time, roommate, now your co-founder, Jack. And then you guys started Patreon in 2013.

That's right.

And you've been running it ever since. You're the president and CTO of Patreon, overseeing the platform's architecture, payment structure, user analytics, and product innovation. I know you're a very creative individual. You're like, That's a pretty impressive lineup. And you and I actually met in Los Angeles, so we've known each other for a couple of years, which we'll dive into later. But once again, so great to have you here.

Yeah, again, wonderful. It's been great connecting over the years, especially in Los Angeles when I first moved here. And it's great culminating in a conversation with you. Yeah.

Amazing. Amazing. So I would love to talk about your upbringing a little bit. So you were born in Iowa City and quickly you made your way to California. So can you briefly tell us about that journey?

Yeah, I mean, my parents were immigrants from Hong Kong, so I was, I guess, the first generation born here and grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which was, which was great as an experience. I think it felt mostly quiet there. And I was, yeah, I don't know. As a kid, I was very focused on doing music, piano. My parents put me through a lot of classical piano. I started when I was 5 and then eventually ended up in California.

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. And how was it growing up with immigrant parents?

Yeah, I mean, I think they were trying the best they could, which was great. I think I had a mentality of scarcity in many ways, because my dad, he, he was a restaurant entrepreneur. So he actually had studied a lot around computers at that era back in like the '80s. But he ended up deciding that he wanted to try building out his own businesses. And I just remember him spending a lot of hours alongside with my mom. They were working on it together, trying to make like the restaurant and food business work for them.

Got it. And I'm assuming that focus on computers has influenced you because, you know, based on our research, you've done a lot of coding. You've been, you know, you have a computer science degree from Stanford. Seems like that influence carried on with you.

Yeah. I think when I first moved out to California, and this would have been back in the early 2000s, I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to pursue yet. I think I had this mentality, seeing that my dad had ended up doing his own thing, like I wanted to eventually work on my own projects and my own ideas. But I didn't know if that path meant studying business, studying technology. And yeah, one of the nice things that I really appreciated, at least within Stanford, is that you're not hardcoded to a particular path when you, when you start your schooling there.

Got it. And what made you consider California or Stanford in particular?

Yeah, I think at the time I was just trying to expand out my perspective and the horizons. And in some sense, being in Pittsburgh, I was trying to get as far away from there as possible. And once I got here, I think I was less aware at that time of all the things around Silicon Valley. But once I got here, I think that was really appealing.

Yeah. So tell me about your Stanford years. Obviously, it's a very credible school. But beyond that, being in Stanford, being around Silicon Valley, a lot was happening during the times that you were studying there. So I would love to kind of understand those years, the culture that you were immersed in.

Sure. Yeah. I think one of the things, if you think about a lot of the companies that were well known even then. Uh, I mean, it was known as Silicon Valley because you had companies like Cisco and HP and, and obviously Google at that time, uh, had all started at Stanford. And now I think you have a lot more, um, very famous, even on the consumer side, companies. Actually, Nvidia is another good example that's, that's really famous now. Um, but also, uh, I think Jensen Huang went to Stanford, um, back in the day. Uh, but, but yeah, now you have like DoorDash, um, I worked across the table when Kevin was starting Instagram over in California. And I think there's just this energy that it's like a combination of like not needing permission to pursue the things that you believe are exciting and also knowing that there's a whole like community of people that have succeeded prior to you. And it gives you a lot of confidence to at least try your shot.

Absolutely. And I think it is so important to stress the impact an environment can make on someone. You know, like when I moved to L.A. roughly 6 years ago, I remember wanting to get an office or wanting to hang my license in Beverly Hills because I knew—

Yeah.

That's where all the best agents were located. And so, you know, with that analogy, as soon as I walked into the office, I was like, okay, I have no business being here. Like, these guys are so good at what they do. I have so much catching up to do. But if you have an ambitious personality and want to learn and pursue, you quickly catch up. Yeah. And I feel like it is a little bit the same in Silicon Valley as well. It is where we have, I would argue, the best talent in the world when it comes to tech innovation. And being around that environment, you constantly feel like you have to catch up or even make yourself better, which then pushes human capability in many ways.

Yeah, I, I think you're sort of describing a notion of imposter syndrome, which I think exists across like Every single industry. Sure. I think what allows you to build confidence over time is just like being exposed, and I don't know what the journey was for you, but like being exposed to enough folks in the industry that you're trying to pursue. Eventually, I think you do get a sense that like people are just people in so many ways. They have the same flaws. They have the same sort of desires amongst one another when you have conversations with them. They're they're Very human, at least at least that's what I've discovered. And so I think sort of not having like a wall of separation from you know people who are successful or not. I actually think a lot of attribution aside from the hard work and whatnot is coming down to luck and being in the right place at the right time with the the right circumstance and folks. And so just taking that stress and pressure off, I think, is also. Um, it's helpful when you have to do a lot of hard work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh no, I really appreciate that. Um, maybe just slight deviation now that we're on it.

Sure.

Do you feel like meeting these individuals, creatives, a lot of founders, or sitting across from them, you know, on a desk, at a desk, um, do you feel like, are there particular qualities that these individuals carried that really gave them The edge that they had to create whatever they have created.

Yeah, again, I think there's like a minimum threshold of like hard work ethics and I guess like willingness to pursue an opportunity that you see. Again, for me, and I I mentioned you know sitting across the table from Kevin Systrom when he was building Instagram. I think what there were a lot of folks like that that I knew before. They ended up creating their company and business. Also in the early 2000s, I was at a couple of conferences, WWDC being a big one, and I met Ben Silberman, who ended up founding Pinterest afterwards. And we were talking and meeting up a lot in Palo Alto, just engaging on different business ideas. And it was really cool seeing him then go out and just materialize that into like a massive platform. The first company I joined out of college was Sam Altman's company, a company, Looped. I was joining in as the first actual engineer apart from the founding team. And actually, Sam, I would say, is unique. He's like really capable of both pursuing like ideas that feel like moonshots and having the confidence to inspire others around him, but then also being able to like make any sort of partnership and deal happen. I think I did gain some inspiration in watching him work through that environment, like, because Loop was just a new company at that time, but he was able to pull together deals like we were a much larger organization. And so, yeah, I guess in that sense, that was interesting.

Amazing. What an environment. I mean, I'm curious, you know, now that you've been through that journey, you graduated from Stanford, looking back, I know a lot of people around the world, they're all looking at Silicon Valley. They're thinking, is this a place I should move to to get this experience? Would you recommend that to someone, or do you feel like you have to have certain qualities in place to really go there and make that journey count?

I think community adds a lot. I think Being in an environment where really interesting ideas and excitement are centralized allows you to like build yourself, like the internal excitement, the internal desire to explore around the area. I do think like in terms of building and working, that's certainly become very globalized. Talent is everywhere. But especially with what's happening around like AI right now, I think Being in an environment where you're able to engage with others who are just exclusively thinking about these topics really does help. I think that's why you see a lot of those companies popping up in similar areas and, and how that used to be the case in the past. I think it really does help at least motivate you internally.

Got it. And looking back, you studying at Stanford versus you being in that environment in Silicon Valley, what's the correlation there? Do you feel like your university education really helped make that overall experience count, or it was more so that you were in the right place in the right time with the right attitude to take it all in?

Yeah, uh, again, I certainly think there's a huge component of just luck, or, you know, uh, the environment and timing being right, uh, uh, to certain situations. I think if you don't, you know, capture that opportunity, then, then nothing's gonna happen. And I think, um, Stanford again, just seeing a lot of the other folks pursue and become successful on their businesses. And I sort of see that cascading and continuing to happen in even greater ways. Like after I attended, like seeing DoorDash come out from there, Snap, a bunch of these really interesting companies. where like I heard a lot of the discussions on campus at that time around ideas like this. I even tried to do my own food delivery service when I was on campus. And, and then seeing that materialize, I think is very exciting.

That is, that is amazing. Well, on that journey, you also met Jack.

Yeah.

And I'm really curious because I also found out that you guys were roommates.

That's right. Yeah. Freshman year roommates.

So tell me about that journey.

Um, yeah, well, they matched us because we were both, uh, I guess in our college applications we had written that we were musicians. And so I think the dorm in particular, uh, it was this Donner, uh, was the name of it, uh, freshman year. It was supposed to be like an artistic dorm at that time. Um, and so, uh, that's why they connected us. Uh, and I guess that's the other part of school, not Stanford uniquely, but, uh, just like getting to meet other people that you probably wouldn't have come across in life otherwise. And I certainly think I always had like an artistic desire or peace in my heart and soul. And seeing Jack, who even at that time as a freshman, he had pursued so many artistic endeavors, both like stop-motion animation, music, and he was so incredibly talented in that dimension. That I found it inspiring. And, um, yeah, ultimately we, we reconverged back in because I had pursued a career in tech and he had actually ended up pursuing, um, and making it quite big, uh, on the, uh, like arts and music and, and even YouTube scene, um, where it was a very sort of serendipitous encounter, I would say.

Yeah. And seems like his frustrations as a content creator kind of sparked the conversation. In regards to the birth of Patreon. So, uh, it was quite interesting to see him sharing, uh, some of his frustrations with you, which I'm assuming turned these deep conversations into, let's start something together.

Yeah, I— so I, I think, uh, it's interesting how we came together on, uh, the, the thinking here, because for sure I think Jack had this really, um, deep and clear insight around how there were these creators sort of commanding massive audiences and getting that level of engagement. But across many of these ad-first, attention-oriented platforms, they would end up getting a paycheck of like a few hundred dollars or something. And he felt like it wasn't commensurate with the value that they were providing. And then for me, like my whole pursuit around the artistic endeavors that I had like growing up was I mentioned I had done a lot of piano, like I had started studying and I studied at Carnegie Mellon for Like, you know, at that point it would have been over like 13 years of classical music. I played in Carnegie Hall in New York, and it was like really a thing that I think I pursued and cared about, but I could never see how I would translate that into making a living from my art or passion, especially given that I think the world of like classical piano, you either have to be like the absolute best. Um, and, and there's just very few roles, and you don't get to necessarily see that, uh, as a career option. Um, and I think this concept that began primarily with how the internet connects communities and people together, um, really seemed to create an opening where, like, you don't have to be the best in the world, but you do have to have something interesting to say to a particular community. It could be a niche community, it could be a a passionate community oriented around just one concept. Like for instance, when we first launched, we had this creator Smooth McGroove and he created a lot of music around like video games. And there's a massive audience that cares deeply about that and that level of connection. And so it just felt like Patreon was this opportunity to allow the threshold and the accessibility of pursuing your passion and being an artist, uh, to a larger amount of people. And that felt really exciting for me as someone who couldn't pursue that myself.

And seems like it also allowed your passion and your technical knowledge and your skill set to kind of come together and merge into one location where you can kind of pursue both in the— at the same time in some fashion.

For sure. Yeah, yeah. For me, that, that was the, uh, um, I guess the combination that made a lot of sense. But then this idea that If there were other people that had pursued their passions and creative endeavors and could see a path finally to keep doing that, I find that very exciting. I especially find that exciting now in the context of what's happening with AI. But we can obviously dive deeper into that later too.

Later too.

Yeah.

So you and Jack get together, have these conversations in 2013.

Yeah.

You found Patreon. So tell me, what was the next step after that? How did you get this platform to be heard by other creators? How did you get people on board? And I'm sure I'm sure just like any other startup, getting things going is arguably the hardest or most difficult part. So what was some of the starting days look like?

Yeah, everyone rejected us on Patreon when we first launched. I think Jack had a list of like 50 other, and these are creators that he knew too, right? And we had this pitch that, hey, we really think the audience is gonna pay you. And obviously there were other platforms like Kickstarter at the time where that was happening. But we felt like the idea of being able to build like a sustainable career and have recurring payments and subscriptions around a business, we felt that there is real energy around that. But, but no one agreed at that time. And so when we ended up launching in 2013, it was only Jack on our platform and his roommates actually, but it was only Jack pushing it. on the platform. And so everyone else rejected us. We're like, well, we still are excited about this idea. And then I think Jack released a YouTube video, to his credit, that I think really appealed in the sense that he had invested so much of his own personal money and energy on this music video. And he was hoping that this model would help make it work so that he could keep doing this in the future. I think he put himself in debt a significant amount during that time. And, and I think his audience, it resonated very strongly with him. And so one of the important things that we still carry through on Patreon, but at the time was required, was we just made it very transparent. We believe that this relationship with the creators and audience should be very clear. And so everyone saw how much money Jack was making per song that he was posting, and it was on the order of like several thousand at that time. And so I think others then saw on YouTube That there was this opportunity and it became very organic after that, that people were like, well, I want to try this too. And then I think that started a movement at that time around more sustainability in like, you know, paying creators and artists.

Amazing. I mean, that organic aspect is very important. That means the creators then got on board, really believed in it, or saw the potential truly rather than being pitched. Right. And I also believe that when founders truly believe in their product and invest in it, there's a level of trust that comes with that. So I have a feeling when Jack really believed in it and told the story and also backed his company by showcasing his work there, I think that kind of sealed the deal for everyone. And he's a very passionate individual. I watched a couple of his interviews and he really believes in what he pursues and he's very genuine about it.

Yeah.

And it comes across.

I think that authenticity is important on anything you pursue. Otherwise, there's like too many hurdles along the way that make it difficult to, to get past. I mean, that was just on the creative side. All the investors also rejected us initially. We ended up, um, fundraising from people that had had some more experience working with like the music and creative industry, uh, which was Freestyle Capital at the time.

Got it.

Um, but, uh, you know, we went to a lot of institutional traditional investors who Did not see like a massive opportunity with what we were doing.

Got it. And I'm curious, like at this point you graduated from Stanford, you already had a pretty darn successful track record. How did it feel to pursue this idea, put your heart and soul into it, go pitch it to other people and just get rejected one after another? In this case, not just by investors, seems like even consumers in the first place.

Yeah, I don't blame them. I get it. Like until a thing works out, If it was obvious, it would probably exist already. Um, and I think, uh, even though, like, in many ways we can sort of retroactively look and describe how obvious it was, I think we also, uh, Jack and I had our concerns and doubts around, like, hey, is this gonna resonate with the broader audience? Um, I think for me, like, uh, there were certain creators on YouTube at the time I've talked about in the past, like this one artist, Keena Grandis, where I was like, I would totally pay if there was a mechanism for me to support her. And so I did have some internal conviction around this. But you just never know because I've also— I think one of the commonalities actually going back to the original question that you had around like founders is maybe this notion that like you pursue many things and fail so many times over and over again. Where again, for me, there were many things that I felt I had strong internal conviction. I felt at one time I was like doing this for a lot of photography that, hey, it would be great to matchmake freelancer photographers with business. And maybe one day that'll be a massive business in its own way too. But like, I tried building that and it didn't have like any sort of real traction. There are other businesses that I built, and I think it's this idea that despite being either wrong or unable to execute on an idea over and over again, it doesn't dissuade you enough that you won't try once more.

I know.

Um, and I think having developed that attitude before allowed us to get to at least the finish line, um, in trying to put this out in front of people, uh, and, and audiences. Um, and, and I think Jack had that same experience from the artist creator side. And so, um, that sort of relentlessness in some sense, I think, uh, is important. Otherwise, uh, you just never get there to a place that could potentially work out.

I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, when you start an idea or, you know, pursue an idea, you have this strong conviction which gives you the emotional bond, the strength that you need, the relentlessness to go pursue it. But along the way, you quickly realize when you analyze all these companies, these, these brands that we look up to, and you realize they had so many failures along the way, it was how quickly they maneuvered Didn't take it personal and use that as an opportunity to expand or try new ideas is what made them successful. And I particularly try to talk about this or try to get it out of people like yourself because it's really important running a business or starting a business and then facing failure can be it can be disappointing, but you have to really internalize and understand that not all of your ideas are going to work out and that's okay. Adjusting is okay. You know, transitioning and doing something new or from that. Failure, finding something new and going pursuing that is okay. And you realize Nikes of the world had went through dozens of turmoils and difficulties and challenges. And so many times they got close to bankruptcy, but then you look at it and you go, wow, that's Nike sitting right in front of me. What an iconic brand. And you realize a lot of these companies or ideas can come pretty close to failure or face devastating failure along the way.

Yeah, I think you nailed this important kernel of like, what is the takeaway you have from every failure? And so I think it like maybe that's what's interesting about the common path for many founders, if not most founders, in having failures is you end up— and this was true for me too— you end up building a foundation that you can keep building more off of later. And for me, it was— there's certainly many things around mentality and learnings, but there was also literally the codebase. that I had that I kept repurposing. I have a couple examples that you can see, like early versions of things that I'd built. Even on this, the photography site was the site right before Patreon. And I took a lot of components and like login systems and got to, you know, build out Patreon in a much more rapid manner than if I was starting from ground zero. And it turns out, incidentally, just in that case, it mattered because I think within a month or two after we launched, Patreon. Hank Green and his brother John, they launched their own subscription platform called Subbable, and they had a lot of large creators from the get-go on that. And I think if we didn't get that early lead, we ended up acquiring them, and we love Hank and John. But like, they probably could have been the de facto platform. There are a lot of interesting ideas that they had too that we hadn't quite thought of. at that time. Um, and so these things are sort of just like coincidence and, uh, again, largely due to timing and, and luck.

Luck and timing do play a huge role, and I've heard this over and over again from so many of my friends and founders. I'm curious, maybe this is more of a personal question. Um, it's really interesting to hear people talk about their failures, whether it's the way they talk about it Or how their body is chemically reacting to it as they talk about it. And you're talking about it very gracefully. You're, you're very much in peace with all these things. And I know you're selling yourself extremely short in regards to the challenges and difficulties you've been through. What you have created with Jack is quite monumental. It's a big accomplishment. How come when you're talking about these failures and challenges, you're so easygoing and you're so graceful about it?

Yeah, this one's tricky. So I think on some level, like, like having a set of things that have worked out make it easier, almost like there was a path that got you here and it, it involved the failures. Obviously, I think, yeah, there's probably a common path where you look at the people who have been successful and they've experienced a lot of failures, and that's one of the only ways you get there. But there's also a path for many people that ended up not as a failure as an individual, but like failing through all their businesses where it also involved a lot of failures. And I honestly think it would be really interesting talking to that set of folks too. Like maybe it's less interesting for the broader public, but I think just the notion of like how people get through hardships and the psychology behind that is always fascinating. But you asked like, why is it so easy for me to talk about it? I think ultimately, like, I find those experiences where I failed even before things worked out. I did still find them so interesting from the perspective of like, how was I so wrong? Like, how was I so sure that people at Stanford would want to pay like two three bucks more for for burgers? I went to I would literally drive to I had a website up and I would drive to In-N-Out and order like. Like 100 burgers from people that had ordered, and they'd just be sitting there waiting while they were making it. And those people were familiar with me. And so I thought there was this really exciting idea, and then eventually it still tapered out. I couldn't expand it. I couldn't get enough people to like repeat, be interested. I think the burgers were soggy after a while. I didn't deliver a great experience, but like going through an experience where you were so sure about something and seeing it not work out I think it's not necessarily purely on the humbling side. It's just on the fascinating side of like, okay, well, the next idea I'm so sure of, like, can I pressure test it a bit more? Like, where is it brittle? And I think that exercise was just really interesting for me to try to get like a clearer understanding of people, their psychology, and the world at large. And I just maybe I have like a curious mindset in general on these things. So I found that whole journey. Um, yeah, really fun in that process.

Well, you touched on something very important, and I think there's a correlation between being so sure about an idea and insecurity, right? Because I think you're sure about an idea and you really want it to work out, and I think it's beyond its metrics. It's also proving to yourself that you're worthy, you're good at what you do, versus once you get over that hump I think looking at it objectively becomes a little bit easier where you go, okay, I have this idea that I really like that I think can go somewhere. Let me go test it. Your your emotional attachment to it becomes much more healthier in in that sense because you know like like I said, I'm watching you. I'm hearing you speak about these things and you're so graceful about it. And I've been through a version of that journey myself where. You know, I can see myself getting really bummed out and disappointed versus we pursue some ideas and sometimes it doesn't work out and I'm pretty calm. And I think I've over time matured enough to detach myself and maybe not correlate my self-worth and my insecurities to that idea. It's like, I work really hard. I would like to think I'm a pretty smart guy, so I'm going to do my best. Or maybe I'll try a little bit. If it doesn't work out, that doesn't really determine who I am and what I'm capable of today. You know, it's just an idea, but it's easier said than done. I think you have to get there yourself.

I also think it's trickier as like you bring more people into the fold. I think it's very easy to fail on your own and it's still hard in its own way, but it's like easier to fail on your own and then be like, okay, well, you know, pick up the pieces, learn something and try again in a different way. It's harder when you feel like there are others that like bought into what you had pitched. Yeah. And then and you have to sell them on it and they're along with the journey and now everyone's sort of having to deal with potentially something that you push them to. And I think it's important then to develop— this is why I think, A, it's nice to work with people that you're really close to or that at least you've formed a very strong trust bond with.

Couldn't agree more.

Yeah. You guys can weather these sort of hardships together. But then I think also when you're working with larger and larger groups, if you can facilitate like a culture where it's okay to experiment, try, because, you know, you went through that yourself and like fail. And that's absolutely okay because that's just part of the journey. I think that becomes more and more important. Otherwise, people also lose faith in you when you push them towards journeys that don't work out. And that's just a given. Again, like you can have very strong conviction about things.

Yeah.

But due to like how the world changes, you know, what people desired when I was in college and what made a lot of sense for me no longer is applicable at all today, largely. And that's just how things are. So like also being like adaptable and not being stuck in a particular mentality where you're comfortable failing and learning from it, I think is all very important.

Of course. And like looking at Patreon and like being in the industry myself, it is so challenging to create a technology company, scale it up to a global level, and then be closely looking out to see how the world is changing and shifting and adapt a big massive infrastructure like that to facilitate that at all times. And not fail and be always ahead of the curve. That's easier said than done. You know, a lot of people can form an opinion very easily about a platform or somebody. Oh, they're not doing this right or wrong. Well, they're driving a massive ship. It's not like tomorrow they can just steer 90 degrees and shift. They have a corporate structure, they have employees, they have infrastructure, they have other customers that they're satisfying their needs. So along the way, keeping everything nimble, Operating, staying ahead of the curve. It can it can be very bearing.

Yeah, that's very kind. I always sense that you um uh and I love this like try to take on this perspective of like deep empathy to to try to understand like why uh you go online like people just spew hate like why is this happening? You're so stupid. I could do it a lot better. And maybe that's the case actually in a lot of times. I don't know, right? Like we all just pursue the path that we uh are are capable of uh for ourselves. Um, I do think on this note like. Uh, the, the other mentality, um, that I try to push for, at least myself, and again, like culturally I think is important, is there are always reasons that are pushing back on you and creating hardships and setbacks. And it— you don't want to take on the, the pure attitude that it's just excuses when you see that. But I do think like it's an excuse in the sense that, well, what are you going to do about it? And so I think if it feels like there's all this governance and slow things holding you back and too many problems at an organization that you started and created, well, I mean, you created all those things too. And so like, what is it different between your organization, other ones that are able to act more agilely and nimbly now? Is it the structure of how you set up your meetings? Is it inefficiency around that? Is it the structure around how you've put together Stakeholders and projects. I mean, there are always questions I think worth diving into, um, where you can look at it like, hey, things are not working out that well right now. Maybe this is the failure. And what is the takeaway that I, as an individual that probably caused this, uh, can now improve on this situation? Yeah.

I want to take a quick break and tell you about our brand, Noir. We created Noir to take the creativity and learning from our YouTube journey and express it in a new way. You see, video making can feel limiting. That's where Noir became our creative outlet to share that experience with you in a more tangible form. And our first candle is Tangerine Vetiver. It opens with the lively brightness of tangerine, softened by orange blossom. Oud adds depth, while vetiver brings that earthy floral layer. So you end up with a candle that's very fresh, soothing, and lightly sweet. Just the right amount. All of our candles are made with natural ingredients with no chemicals added. So if you want to check it out, please visit us at noirhome.com. Your support means a lot to us. I love that. I want to talk about some of the Patreon numbers and all that in a second, but I'm curious, along that journey, looking back, it's almost a 13-year journey.

Yep.

Do you have any key moments, things that have happened that was quite challenging for you to overcome? Or challenges that you guys have managed to figure out, but really left a big impact on you?

Yeah, I think a lot of them. There's like different categories of challenges. So I think a lot of the very acutely painful ones were at the beginning of the organization because like no one was the idea wasn't resonating with everyone because everyone gets so many different ideas, right? And so when we were trying to pitch that, obviously. That was a struggle for investors. It was a struggle, and when things worked out, we got a little bit of momentum. So that was exciting. I think the second nature of struggles now is—I don't know if the the way I would describe it is like envy—but like there was a moment where when we were growing, it was really exciting, and it felt like even relative to our peers, we were we were crushing it in in our own way. Uh, and now I think you can look around, whether it's in the industry of AI, but even prior to that, um, you can see other companies— like, we got started at the same time DoorDash did, and then they IPO'd, and they're like a massive, uh, consumer brand doing really interesting things. Um, and I think there's, uh— you just asked about hardships. I think there's a way to like shine light on ourselves and, and ask the question of like, um, why Have we not been more influential, especially with such a strong mission where we want to get creators paid, where we want to lower this threshold of people having access to pursue their passions and make a career out of it? It's such a great, strong movement. Like, how come we haven't been able to execute to make that a larger dream for many people and even for the organization? And I think there are many different reasons for that, that like, again, shining light on ourselves are related to how we execute on the company, related to in some ways how the world has shaped up. But I think that's a thing that it's sort of spread over a longer period and it's a little heavier in many ways that we try to deal with, especially because we care so much as a company, as you know, all the different teammates there and as founders about what we're trying to do.

Yeah. No, I mean, there are many great points that you touched. Number one, I would say in regards to a lot of those earlier painful moments in the earlier stages of the company, well, you have a lot of challenges, but even more importantly, you don't have a ton of resources. So you're really nickel and diming and making things work and grinding your way out. But once you get a little bit of momentum, things become much easier. The second thing that I've experienced, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, With our company, I've been working this hard the last 6 years, right? It has evolved. I'm much more efficient, much more sophisticated in regards to how I, how I work, how we use our resources. We are much more resourceful. But one of the important things that I found personally about being able to push through difficulties is when you have momentum, when you have results coming in, Challenges, difficulties, those late hours become much easier to bear. But as you're grinding and things are just not working out, or even if it's for a certain period of time, the pain feels much stronger. Even though you can subjectively pull yourself out of your shoes and look and go, you're doing great things. You're making so much progress here and here and here. But when the world and the universe is just not giving you the results that maybe you're hoping for, Or maybe your expectations are a little bit high. It tends to be a little bit more painful, or at least that's what I have experienced. And I'm curious.

Yeah, yeah, there's a platitude, I think many in Silicon Valley. One of them is like growth solves all problems. And in that sense, like it is true. I think you can have a lot of issues, but if everyone feels that they're winning in the organization, it becomes a great motivating, unifying factor. I think also. And and like what we've tried to do, and I think it's just over time it it means less and less. Like we we certainly feel very blessed and fortunate, and that we put a lot of hard work to get to where Patreon is today, right? And we can look at numbers and say like we send over two billion a year to creators now, and so that feels that's incredible in in many ways, right? And it's certainly a thing that we can be proud of in some sense. But then similarly. We look at like paths that we have to choose in the organization. And in some sense, I'll use OnlyFans as an example. Like they have some public numbers that where they exceed $6, $7 billion in total funds sent out to, to their set of creators at one point. And there's a lot of different ways to look at this. I think we certainly in many ways are okay with the fact that the nature of the platform we wanted to build there were certain things that we knew we wanted to exclude from it. And it's not even from a moral or sort of righteous perspective. It's just that we wanted to focus on like the notion of creators and artists. And so we knew that we wouldn't have necessarily pornography, even though there can be ways that that has like artistic merit in its own way. We don't want to be full arbiters of what art is, but we just know that the nature of those platforms oftentimes become consuming for a platform. But nonetheless, I think it's still disappointing to see that like, you know, a business that you build out and this notion of subscription can get outsized and just sort of quickly— it's not dominated because they're like different segments, but at least like shadowed in size due to another company. And it makes you just wonder, okay, well, we believe that the market opportunity is so significant and substantial and how do we actually get this in front so that we're providing that value? Um, to a larger audience. So it does become a challenge, I think, for us.

Um, I could totally understand. And I think there's still, at least with my experience, uh, launching our Patreon, I want to say almost a year ago, and seeing how our audience reacts, or seeing just reactions of others, it's— there's still a little bit of, uh, people not knowing this part of the industry. And I was a little bit surprised by that. Or I would ask people to like follow updates on Patreon. They're like, well, what's Patreon? And I agree that it can come across a little bit— I don't want to say the word disappointing, but challenging for you to see another platform that is really relatively providing the same service in some capacity being in the forefront. And I think that ties back to negativity or controversial things being easier to market.

Yeah. And I think for us then taking that, whether it's like disappointment or whatnot, for us it's like channeling that into the arc of where we believe the next phase is gonna go. I think traditionally, you know, Patreon is, and it will continue to be our mission to get money and support and direct funding to creators. But what we've discovered along the way that, you know, many other platforms facilitate too, is that we wanna differentiate on is this facilitation of like human connection.

Yeah.

And again, I think in the context of AI, that's particularly important. But it's this notion that like people are just hardwired to care about other people. And so the idea that, you know, when, when you're giving money to someone especially, it shows like a real level of care and dedication and deep interest in that particular creator. And so we want to build out more and more of that sort of value generation, whether it's in things that'd be interesting for you, like helping facilitate real-time events where humans can come together and, and being able to build out more ways for, again, authentic interactions even online.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, it's funny, I'm going to give you a really interesting piece of feedback in regards to my journey on Patreon and like what I've experienced so far or some of the things that, that really impacted me. And one of them is, you know, We've never pursued a platform like Patreon prior to starting with you guys. And it was interesting. It was a learning curve. You know, what can we offer? What kind of value can we give? We have a really interesting business to begin with. Like, we're known to give access to some of the most exclusive assets and provide these cinematic— and I would like to call it immersive experiences through our videos. And, you know, we provided some behind-the-scenes videos, engaged the community, but more so we've done a couple in-person events. It's the approach of like, you take what you have in your life for granted and You know, I gave access to some of the designer and developer friends of mine and did in-person events. And I could not believe the impact that has made on people. The amount of messages I've gotten back from a 20-people event, and it's not even like I had hundreds of people saying how incredible it was to tour a home and then talk to the person and see them answer questions openly, vividly in front of them about the product that they have produced. I was like, oh wow, there's a— there's an insane need for people lack these immersive tactile experiences. They want to show up at a site. They want to— they want to feel it, you know, which is why I've told Andy, our CEO, I'm like, Andy, I know we're busy. I know we're trying to make 40 videos, now a podcast channel amongst many other things, but we got to carve out time and open up our resources in person. And it's not that we're holding that back. As you know, in person becomes a little bit more challenging.

Yeah.

You know, Next thing that I'm pretty sure Andy ran by you, the idea of like, we have this. In fact, I have the suit right behind me. We traveled from Spain to New York on a container ship over 11 days.

Oh, wow.

And we documented the entire journey and we put together a 2-hour documentary that I can confidently say our best work yet. And in fact, recently in Turkey with the company that we shot the video with, we did a premiere and I literally had the C-suite of the company sitting right next to me. 50, 60-year-old man crying at the end of the video. And everybody's like, this was such a lovely event. It was so interesting to watch your video in this big screen and be there, hear what you— why you created a video like this with your team. And I'm like, we gotta do a version of it in LA.

Yeah.

It is so not profitable. It is so not financially feasible. But I was like, you know what? Kind of like where Patreon started this journey. It's like we started this thing believing that people deserve access. People should have access to these things. We should be the advocate that opens these doors. I'm like, even if we got to lose money, let's do an event. Let's get a dope venue. Let's get people excited about making videos again, especially in a town like LA. And let's share that experience with people. Let's set an intentionality of like we post a video on YouTube and in a way and sorry I'm getting on a tangent on the subject matter, but I was like. let's give, let's give people a chance to understand and value video making, right? It's not just like we want to do a premiere. Let's get people to get a chance to sit in a movie theater together and be like, oh my God, if they came here to watch this, they might— we might have like— maybe people will meet each other, which they do now. My Patreon members go to open houses together on Sundays.

Yeah.

Because I And it dawned on me. I'm like, of course, if they're coming to meet developers, these people love houses. These people love talking about houses. Of course, down now they met each other. But long story short, I couldn't agree more that people want to meet. And unfortunately, the world we live, the screens are owning us. All of our attention, all of our engagement is going there. And I'm like, we got to break this pattern. We got to make people realize that they're humans. They like touching. Smelling things. And we as content creators have the power to engage that notion.

Yeah, well, and I think communities like to come together around like a unique concept because then that, uh, even expresses like, like their personal individuality through like, hey, we uniquely like this together. And I think you and your product offers like a very premium, uh, view into these things that most people don't have access to. Even myself personally, when you invited me to that one open house where— was it Ardy's house? Yes, exactly. It was so beautiful. And then, first of all, even getting access to like look through a home like that right after its construction. But then on top of that, being able to meet, like you said, like the creator and architect of that and getting that perspective, that's not an experience I've ever been able to have before. And so being able to be connected to you and others through experiences like that, I think, are very memorable moments. Do feel very like a lot of value in there.

Absolutely. It's very powerful. And to expand on what Sam just said, we had a movie premiere for the video that we've done for Ardis Development property. And we really enjoyed making that video. We put a lot of time and effort into it and we did like a shorter version of it to be showcased on the outdoor screen at the property. We invited our friends and family. It was like a lovely event of like 100 people roughly, give or take. And that was also like the spark of these, like, we should do more movie premieres. And it's not to glorify us, it's to celebrate what we do with others and for the things that we're working on. It's like, you know, again, getting on that container and traveling from Spain to New York, I thought these people are moving the world. It's such a monumental thing that they do. No one talks about them. When I looked up on YouTube, I couldn't believe that there wasn't one documentary of someone showing what's like to travel and cross the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean.

Like, because people don't want to do that. No one wants to sit and document a whole thing, and they don't have access to that. So that's what's great about being able to have this sort of like overlap and connection. Exactly. Be able to provide that. Yeah.

And like, I feel like in many ways, like, the conclusion that I came to— the immersiveness, the fan interaction, so to speak— made me realize, I'm like, oh, Patreon has an opportunity to maybe make it easier or give platform to creators to engage more in-person events. And that could be the next front, I feel like, because that's what I want to use Patreon for. You know, maybe it's just a digital platform that we communicate this message through, but maybe there's an opportunity. And it's not to say I have this idea, but I can see Patreon helping creators engage more in-person interactions.

Yeah, I think the core of our company has actually always been around this idea of like authentic human connection. That's why people were initially supporting creators and artists. I think it's why going forward, even as there's more and more content on the internet, even if a lot of this content ends up being like AI generated, people still care about the narratives and the stories about other real human beings. There's just something very inherently personal and human about caring about other humans. And so whether that's having communities come together or creators facilitating ways for people to interact authentically. I think that's where we're trying to lean in on. It feels these days like there are things that you've heard about, like the loneliness epidemic, where people are just by themselves consuming content and doom scrolling and all of that. And now even you see things where like people talk about how algorithmically you could be following and telling a platform or company that you care about these individuals, but they're instead going to decide for you what you're going to have more engagement and interest in. There, it's like more and more we're just removed from like other human connections. And I think there are real health, mental wellness consequences to these sort of things. So I think part of our journey as an organization is like, what does it mean to have healthy follows, healthy human connections? Um, and how can we help facilitate that in a future that seems to be pushing more and more away from it?

Amazing. Maybe this is slightly reversed, but, you know, I would love to know where Patreon is at today. Uh, how many consumers, how many content creators there are on the platform. Can you give us some numbers so we can understand the scale?

Sure. Yeah, I mentioned, uh, how we're sending over $2 billion annually to creators. We have about 300,000— we have over 300,000 creators making money on a monthly basis and are active today. And then we also have a pretty large— again, I mentioned like trying to facilitate human connections. We have over 15 million monthly active folks coming through and engaging with our platform in some manner. But we want to obviously expand that and make it more interesting and value generating as an organization. And so those are where we stand today. I think What we hope to do is facilitate more and more. We launched a product around free memberships recently where like you can get to know a creator, you can get to start interacting with them on Patreon. We want to offer more ways to discover, uh, creators.

Which we utilize as well.

Great. Yeah, yeah. And, and we want to be able to— so like the next time you do facilitate an event or a live event, uh, and you want to like sell tickets or just make others aware of that, to have that be discovered out to those You know, 15, 17 million people that come through the site monthly, and and I think that's the direction that we'll be pushing towards.

Amazing. Maybe this is out of my personal curiosity, but you know, obviously big companies like like yours, they're a lot of times formed or supported through multiple rounds of fundraising, and I know Patreon went through its own journey. So I don't know how much you can share, but I'm just really curious. And again, this is more so to. shed a light on beyond creators pursuing this massive idea, how creators or founders like yourself bring in resources to these journeys. So I would love to hear Patreon's story on fundraising.

Sure. Yeah, I think ultimately it comes down to like alignment of incentives, uh, in terms of like whether it's impactful in a good or bad way for an organization. Um, when you ask about fundraising, uh, we've gone through multiple rounds. We raised over $100 million. And in some sense, that's— that was necessary for us because we want to build out a team and be able to provide for them and their salaries as we were building out towards the future that we sort of envisioned as an organization. But even if we didn't fundraise, I think you end up with the same issue where if you pull in a group of people towards this mission, Like ultimately, you still have to find a way to make sure that everyone can live their own lives, that they're fairly compensated, that you know there is some sort of ability to have even things like liquidity, right? Getting into those topics, like these are important things for people, whether or not you have institutional investors or not. And I would say, like one of the things we've been trying to balance again on aligning incentives is that the investors and the people that we bring on. Do care about this mission of, you know, facilitating access for creators and people who want to pursue their passions and make a living from it. And yeah, I think when you have that alignment, that helps a bit. So no one's pushing you to have to like IPO or grow faster. That's something we all want to do anyway because we want to make more impact. Of course. And so finding people that are aligned with that, I think, helps a lot.

We're excited to partner with Lazzoni, a brand that truly values craftsmanship and quality. A Turkish company whose heritage, design precision, and service align with our vision and values, making them a standout choice for us and those who appreciate well-made pieces. For the price point, their furniture pieces offer some of the best value in the industry. We've known Lazzoni for years, and every client, friend, or colleague we've sent their way has had a great experience, whether it's in-store or online due to their customer service. That's why we felt confident choosing them to furnish our podcast studio, and we can't thank them enough for their support. If you were to give advice to someone who's starting out their company and trying to decide whether to bootstrap it, grind it out, and take the hard way versus maybe consider raising money, From get-go to propel the existing momentum in place. What advice would you give them, or how would you determine whether they are qualified to raise versus they should go on that journey on their own?

Yeah, I think directionally what's happened with companies is actually sort of similar to what's happened in the creative space, which is you need less and less resources over time because the tooling sort of has scaled out. I even remember like when I, when I was first working for Sam Altman, we had to create like a colo and you actually had to like as a startup go and get like the hardware boxes in this facility to have servers. And now, you know, everything's in the cloud and you can just spin up an instance on like Amazon. But similarly with creators, I think a lot of technology has allowed it so that you need less people to be able to like create content and share it. to the world. So to your question of like, does someone immediately fundraise and get money or in order to pay people, or can they bootstrap it to a sense? I do think the hurdle of getting to success is higher in some ways, meaning like you have to show more momentum and metrics before people nowadays feels that like you're onto something. In that sense, I think it's important to sort of vet ideas and things on your own or with, you know, your trusted group and your co-founders before just immediately trying to fundraise. Now, that's interesting in the context of what's actually happening today, which you see people raising even, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars for AI before that company has started. And I think there's something going on around talent and belief around how big that opportunity is going to be in the future. But I think ultimately, even in a model like that, part of the reason people need to fundraise is similar to the old days where it's just very expensive right now to do all the things that you need to in that space. You know, if that's a requirement, then yeah, you probably do need to fundraise. But otherwise, I think a lot of other businesses right now, you can bet on your own before, you know, going out and raising capital.

Got it. Good advice. I'm on the journey myself a little bit, and it's interesting, you know, coming from— I was born and raised in Turkey. My parents are immigrants. I mean, I wasn't born here, but I actually retired them and moved them to L.A. almost 2 years ago. And I don't come from a wealthy family, so I had to kind of, just like my parents, kind of earn everything that I've got in life and got in this habitual pattern of like you start everything from zero and you build yourself up. But once you get to this level of success and see how the world around you moves and how the culture here operates, you quickly realize, okay, am I going to go to another battle or do I raise money and actually really build up my arsenal, so to speak, and really go play at a level that others are playing at, right? And it's, it's an interesting one. You can kind of go either way and justify it. And it's not about justification, it's more so how you want to get there, I think, is maybe a better question. Uh, at least that's how I'm looking at it. Um, and also, you know, maybe at some point you look at yourself and go, okay, I don't need to prove myself one more time. I have proven it. Uh, and this time I just need to go ask for some help early on so I can really go do the big thing? Because just like you said, we all want to make a big impact. I think we all want our message to be shared with as many people as possible. Yeah, I'm on that journey myself, trying to figure out while I'm like having these conversations with investors and all that. And I was just kind of curious because I feel like in many ways how you look at life and how I look at life from a cultural and Emotional perspective is somewhat similar. So I was kind of curious, like, your perspective on that.

Yeah, I think anything to help, like, one's mental health and, like, ability to not be too distracted is nice too. So, like, if the concern is not necessarily for you, but, like, for an individual that, hey, I'm worried that I can't make the next day work out if I don't have the fundraise. to pursue this business, then maybe that's what you need for that particular, you know, chapter in your life.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good advice. And I think it's like, for me, I'm fortunate enough that, like, you know, we've launched our candle brand, which is literally burning here as we speak. That's what we have in the studio on our own. And we don't come from that level of like fear or not being able to make the next payment. I think there's a beauty And there's this mystical element of knowing that this idea has to work. And it gives you this level of conviction and power and determination to go make this happen. And I would say, looking back, that was the journey of the YouTube channel. There wasn't any other option. It wasn't like I was going to be homeless, but this had to work and I didn't have the money, so I had to grind it out. And here we are today, 14 employees across the globe. We have multiple channels, businesses that we're launching and all these things that we're doing. But this time, I don't think I need that pressure in a sense over my shoulder. And I'm already extremely committed to my idea. Anybody that knows me in person, my friend joked the other day, he's like, the last thing you need is commitment. He's like, you got it more than anybody I know. But it's more so you need now a little bit more resources so you can actually go pursue this a little bit quicker.

Well, I would say like, The next day after all the money comes in from the bank, you still have to do all the same problems.

Work.

Yeah, and everything. So in that sense, it's like for many and most companies, like it doesn't change how necessary it is to make things happen and to solve the problem and to ultimately provide value to the world in order for a thing to work out. That's why there are many companies that raise so much money, but they end up going nowhere still, right? Because the money doesn't necessarily change the fact of like you still have to figure out what that thing— now it might give you a longer timeline, it might give you access to some more resources. Yeah. To pursue that. But generally, I think what's more important than all that is just the— again, going back to like even the grit that we talked about, like the powering through to make things happen.

Yeah. No, couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. I want to talk about L.A. for a second. Great. Yeah. Uh, your journey of moving to the city. Let's actually start there because it takes a very interesting route after that, and it's kind of the reason how we met.

Yeah, actually we just talked about this beforehand.

I don't, I don't think you knew, and I didn't know this, so please, if you don't mind sharing.

Yeah, I, I moved to LA because I was, um, I moved to LA right in the middle during COVID Uh, it was in, uh, 2021. Um, and so, uh, I was looking at, uh, places, you know, like COVID was scary, at least for me up in the Bay Area. It was also a place where you felt like very much trapped at home in order to try to be safe. And so I was looking around and seeing like, where can I move to? And I had seen at that time this tour of a beautiful home that you had done down here in Los Angeles. It was, it was this home in Bel Air. And I ended up going there and looking at that home and Making an offer that was way too lowball, and and didn't get it. But like that got me started, and and connected ultimately to builder Ray Romting, who then after like chatting with him, he had mentioned that you had also reached out to him a couple of times. I was like, yeah, you should definitely connect with Ennis and and do some tours because that's how I even came down here to begin with to look at homes. And I ended up. Purchasing a home from him, and I saw that you had ended up later on doing a bunch of tours of his properties too. So it's just we all connected in our own random way coming down here, and that was that. I mean, yeah, that was really great.

No, it's funny. I mean, it's like humbling to hear that how what you produce can make such impact on people's lives, and it's not to glorify what we do, but it's the fact that. That video inspired you to say, you know what? I'm going to make a trip to LA, which then kind of warmed you up to the idea, to the city, which then led you to buying a significant home in Pacific Palisades. And it's funny enough, that was around the time I met Ray. You're right. Yeah. Prior to touring your home, which I'm going to get to in a second, I've actually toured another one of Ray's properties, and that was the first property tour I've done with him. And it was kind of somewhat my official. meet with him and we hit it off right off the bat. Obviously, he's very passionate. He's doing many projects and we were in the same circle. So it was, it was pretty quick for him and I to kind of bond and have a lot of mutual respect to each other, which then, funny enough, he mentioned me about this property in Pacific Palisades and he said, look at us, this property has sold, but the owner is okay with you doing a tour. Just keep it private. Maybe not mention the address and kind of respect the boundaries. Sure. Yeah. Which then led me to meeting you, which which was so I would love to hear your side of the story because I didn't know who you were prior to that. Yeah, and he's like, "Yes, Sam is the owner," which then I later found out that you were the co-founder of Sam and like you know all this stuff.

Yeah, well like I said, I think even before you toured Ray's because I looked at that home too, the one in Brentwood, I think is the one you're talking about with Ray. Yeah, because that was part of the process around like, hey, this is what the home will look like. Because when I bought Ray's home in the Palisades, it wasn't finished yet. So I had to sort of visualize it. And then that Brentwood home really sort of like helped with that too. But that's one where it was like, you know, I'm talking to this guy Ennis and like, should I do these like videos? I don't typically open that up. I'm like, you absolutely should. And so ultimately, I also felt really great when he was like, yeah, I should tour and check out your place too. Like, once you get it into a more finished state. And I was like, oh yeah, of course. That's the reason why I moved down here to begin with. And so, yeah, it was really exciting meeting you again, just as I expected. It was like very respectful. It was cool. You brought a kid over, I think, at that time too. And so even the messaging was really solid. Yeah. At that time.

No, I appreciate it. And We'll like put up some of the shots of the video, but the video is still live. It's on our second channel. But we had this kid that— well, we met this kid's dad on one of the flights that we were on, and he's like telling us how big of a fan his kid was and all that. And Mikey, at the time, he was like, dude, we should invite them to one of our shoots.

Yeah.

And sure enough, around that time, your property tour was happening. And again, you were very kind to say, look, it's not for sale anymore, but please go ahead and tour it. And we were like, maybe we should invite him. And I believe we ran it by you and Ray. Both of you were like, oh, please. Like, that's a great cause or great idea. Long story short, we ended up touring the home and that's how I met you. And you were clearly very passionate about the home. I can tell, you know, I get a chance to meet a lot of homeowners, a lot of individuals, and people acquire such significant assets for various reasons, right? Some people just see it as like another thing that they need to have in their life. Some people just have like an impulsive thought and they bought these extravagant homes, or some people really devote or like really cherish this investment. And I feel like you were one of those individuals that really cherished the property. And again, after shooting the home, meeting you, I constantly see you posting from the house. You were really sharing it with your friends and family. So tell me a little bit about that experience.

Yeah, it's an interesting way to frame it. I think what I cared about a lot Was this idea of like, and that's why I picked at the time the Palisades because it was shared with me as like a family neighborhood. And so I think what excited me a lot about home, and it's obviously different for different people, is this notion of like setting up a future where you know I would imagine many other things that I've deeply wanted just in my life around like a family, a neighborhood where you would. you know, have kids and sort of raise them. And what I quickly found also after moving to LA was there's just very strong desire to form communities. This is true in many cities, but I think in Los Angeles in particular, there's so much diversity of what people are doing that there's this just deep interest and desire to connect together and meet others. And so I ended up getting quickly plugged into various communities and then found out that it was sort of fun to host events too. And so I think that's where I ended up meeting people. And then L.A. also has this interesting slant of like a lot of people being very public or influencers or whatever, where they like share a lot of content. And so I think there was that component that I don't know if I necessarily loved as much because I think I'm more of a private person in many ways. You are, yeah. Um, but, uh, but it all came hand in hand with like the community and, um, again, uh, this idea that I was just very happy like being able to think about the future that I was going to plan out in that neighborhood.

After buying the home and having all these thoughts and ideas and maybe dreams about how this property can serve you and nurture the next phase of your life, I'm just curious, like, how did it feel Did it hit those? Did it check those boxes for you? Or it provided a different experience, especially it's not just a home, right? Like you're in Los Angeles. You're absolutely right about Pacific Palisades being more on the family-oriented side of this town. Yeah. But you still had a very modern, very architectural and view property where it's a house to entertain. So I'm really curious how it facilitated your life on that aspect.

I didn't think originally like the intent and it never ultimately was. like was around entertainment. And if you get like very specific into the, the way the home's set up, I think, uh, I've been to— I mean, LA has so many beautiful properties. I've been to properties like set up where you come in and then there's like a large outdoor space where people can host and, and have like large gatherings. And, uh, the way it was set up, like you come into the main floor of my home and there isn't that space necessarily. Like, I think it's more set up for like intimate experiences is sort of the way I thought about it. And it turns out that there's such a large community that you just end up cramming people in and you still have a great time, right? Yeah. But yeah, that was what I was excited for. I was excited to, yeah, again, develop a future where I could have close friends and family gather and Ultimately, I think that's what a home is about. It's about those connections and and people that you you care about being able to have a space where you can gather and share moments and memories.

Yeah, and then everything was going well till the fires happened. Sure, yeah, this year. And obviously, it was a big shock to the community. Everybody, I want to say nobody saw it coming.

Yeah, going on the internet, you can really lose your mind because you say it was a big shock to the community, and then there'll be people saying. everyone should have known. And, uh, you know, like, why would anyone build a home near, uh, brush and all these things? And, and, you know, whatever. I think everyone has their fair point, and that's fine. Uh, I think there's a time and place for certain types of comments, but whatever, it's the internet.

Yeah.

So it's Wild West when it comes to that. But, uh, I, I will say, just purely personal experience, and I think amongst many neighbors of mine, You really didn't expect. Maybe no one does, right? Ultimately, but like you really didn't just walking through those streets and like the the feel of that neighborhood. I mentioned family oriented, but also feeling just very safe and almost like dreamlike in many ways. You would just imagine that even if there were things like fires or whatnot, that it would just be okay and that it would be taken care of.

And I mean, you you explained it perfectly in a sense that. First off, that side of the town is so matured into the landscape, right? It's like, it feels like one with the nature. It's like all these homes, those neighborhoods, especially Pacific Palisades, in many ways it feels like it has been there for ages. And I think given that it's Los Angeles, given that it's this dreamy progressive city, in your mind there's just a safe notion of like, even if were to be a fire, somehow it will get resolved. Maybe a few homes, but then.

Yeah.

it will quietly get under control. And I don't think nobody expected for this fire to go that wild and have such significant impact on the community.

Yeah, I don't know about the extreme of nobody or whatnot. Like, certainly I think there are people very prepared for it. I'm just saying personally, like, and, and you could argue, like, I— there were signals for me too. So I bought the home, and this is actually the first, like, uh, like, like family homes that I ever purchased. And I just assume you'll figure things out along the way. But one of the things that happened after I purchased home was I could not get home insurance on it. I had a couple of people like looking for it for me. And then I also myself was trying to find it. And, and like, that should have been a signal. I mean, it was a signal in some sense that like at least insurance companies were noticing something there. But I figured maybe eventually it would work itself out or maybe insurance companies would maybe mature into a place where then there would be an offering.

And you couldn't get fire insurance or other insurance?

You couldn't get any insurance. I think it's the same thing, at least when we were looking for property insurance on it. But, you know, then— but then at that point, right, you either say that you should have figured all this out before you bought the home, or at that point after you bought it and you can't, you go, okay, well, I could sell it. I mean, I could certainly have sold my home, but then I had already Started establishing a life there, and I really liked that. And so I think you end up in these situations that again for me, I didn't suspect that you know this would be the outcome. But but it's also I again like we talked about failures early in life. I look this was hard, but I I try to look at a situation and be like well it's not just looking for silver linings, but what is going to happen next? Like You can just live in the past on these things, or you can look and say, well, now I get to spend more time with family. And now, you know, I've moved in with my mom over in Nevada. And there are many things that you still have a lot of autonomy and choice over in life. Actually, everything that you choose is by definition something you have choice over. And so I focus on that and try to figure out, you know, how I can still continue pursuing the things that are important to me.

When you walk into a truly remarkable space, there's something you feel before you notice the details. It's the art. That's what Puff Fine Art delivers. They partner with world-renowned galleries to source blue-chip works from the most celebrated artists. But Puff Fine Art is more than just acquisition. They're a full-service fine art staging company, curating one-of-a-kind collections to elevate luxury properties around the world. Whether it's a penthouse in New York, a villa in Miami, they do it all. And we know this firsthand. When we set out to design our podcast studio, we wanted to reflect the same level of artistry and storytelling that inspires our work. Just like the George Condo piece behind me that they have provided us. Puff Fine Art graciously stepped in, selecting incredible pieces that don't just decorate the room, they bring it to life. So if you wanna find out more information, visit pufffineart.com.

Puff Fine Art.

Amazing. I mean, I don't want to dig too deep into it, but it's such a significant experience. If you don't mind me asking, I want to ask you a couple more questions about it. Um, I, I like this.

I— it's even cathartic in some ways for me. I've done this before, like, in terms of, like, therapy with talking about Friends for it, so it's fine.

I mean, I figured it's like— it's been really weird for me because it's like it has affected so many people around me, and I don't even know how to go about it. A couple of my friends totally lost their home. Couple are going through the process of repairing it. Like, their home survived but had significant damage. Um, can you talk to me about that night where you're leaving the home, it's getting serious? How was that overall experience, and how quickly it got out of hand where basically your home caught on fire and burned?

Yeah, I have— I've— I can send you some of the video footage because I was watching the fire in the morning and it was far that way, and it looked like the winds were blowing like down towards the Malibu side, which ultimately it did too, where I was like, oh, that's really bad and unfortunate, but it doesn't look like at all like it's coming towards this direction, uh, where I was up like past the village, right, um, in the Palisades. And, um, I, I actually left early just out of precaution and safety. I think a lot of people in the neighborhood did, thinking that, you know, uh, maybe they'll block off some roads for a day and then I'll come back. So I, I didn't pack anything either. I Yeah, um, but, uh, I didn't— I never imagined actually, um, that, uh, that I— it would come over and, and it would take, uh, my home. Even then, even after watching it for a few hours, um, on that side, uh, where it started. Um, so yeah, ultimately, uh, I think me and a couple of neighbors, we were watching the footage on our security cameras because They kept that going until like 5 p.m., even though I had probably left by like 1:30 or 2. And we just saw the fires coming closer and closer until I think they eventually— either the power went out or the fires took over that area. And so around like, like later that evening, all of us didn't see, but we sort of knew at that point. And then actually, okay, so we sort of knew, but we also didn't. And so like I didn't know whether— it looked like it had taken my home, but I didn't ultimately know. And you would like try to find on news footage or things like, like what really happened, right? Because they wouldn't let you back onto the property afterwards. And ultimately it was— For me, I remember this moment because I was just sitting in bed, like looking around the news. Like everyone was, I think, very interested to see what was happening in the Palisades, especially if you live there. And my neighbor across the street, who was Spencer Pratt and his wife Heidi, there was an article about how they lost their home. And in that overhead shot, I saw that my whole home was gone too. And that was the first time I actually knew. And then, yeah, it was obviously tough at that point to see that.

I'm curious, how was it walking the grounds for the first time, going back there and seeing it?

Yeah, I think at that point I had processed many different things. I've had a lot of time to sort of reflect around like what this meant for me and my neighbors to a really large extent. What I mean by that is like, I think it's hard to— everyone's circumstances were so unique. I was reading this post even recently on Nextdoor about a neighbor that had had their home Um, burned down in— you'll see where this is going— in Malibu. And so they were going through a very bureaucratic rebuilding process where I think they mentioned they had spent so much money and couldn't even really get started on the rebuild over several years, ultimately decided that it wasn't worth it to try to finally finish their property in Malibu. And so they took all the money that they could to buy the best home they could afford nearby in the Palisades in, uh, they mentioned that they closed in September, I believe, of 2024, which then meant 3 months prior to the fire, and lost it all again. And they were super disheartened. But like, the point of all this is I think it's hard to really know individually what everyone is experiencing, what their story is.

Yeah.

And so it's not that like I'm trying to get everyone to understand how I feel or other people. Feel. But I think there's this notion of like in certain experiences around grief that there is this overlap of like this feeling of grief that can be shared that allows you to develop empathy. And again, just even going back to the theme of human connection, allows you to connect with people in ways that prior to that, yeah, maybe harder to understand fully. And again, I don't think you can fully understand a prison situation. I'll give you one more story around this, which was, I think, and I shared this with another neighbor and he had the same experience. I think one of the most jarring things was shortly after the fires. I think it was about a week or two. So I had been to my property and known that we lost everything. Like, you're still living in this moment of like, I don't know where I'm going to next. I lost like everything for me that I had spent like 4 years collecting, like all these important things that just sort of represented the life I had lived, like, were sort of gone. And that felt very heavy. But then— and this is totally to be expected— I, you know, LA, there was a moment of tragedy where everyone felt really— it was very visibly clear that they felt a lot of compassion around this. But then, you know, within like a week or 2 weeks, I think you would be wandering around outside And everyone would, of course, as they should be, like people should be trying to be happy. They were like happily living their lives and like at, you know, restaurants and events and you saw that and, and it's like there's no, like, of course you should be doing that. I would do that in the same space, but it feels so jarring that like that's so close and yet so different from the experience that I'm having now where like I feel so heavy with the fact that I haven't figured out like where my next phase of life is going to be.

Yeah.

And I think there are a lot of people that went through the experience and then I saw this. So again, that was my experience. But then like you start noticing that there are many other tragedies happening in the world that are probably the most important moment in that person's life. And then the next week they have to be subjected to the fact that other people are just living happy, regular lives or not being able to understand at all. that experience from you. And you start realizing that, like, the world, it's beautiful in its own complex way, but, like, you should never just assume, like, you know what the footsteps of another person are, uh, walking through an experience. So that was just very powerful for me, I think.

No, I mean, you, you've expressed it beautifully. And I think it's like, even though we may not seek this empathy But it feels good at that point of grief and sadness and the things you're going through to be at least maybe heard, or someone to be there to at least share the pain a little bit. And it is, it is quite difficult to swallow the fact that life is going to go on and you have to cope with this pain or the suffering that you're going through. And it almost puts you in a worse spot to expect to see that empathy from others.

Well, I don't need anyone to feel bad about my— and I'm blessed in many ways. So again, even uniquely for me, like, there's no desire for that sense.

Yeah.

What I guess I'm trying to call out is like, I think it's important to put the effort to try to get to know someone and empathize and just sort of try to understand them more. And we see less and less of that in today's world through the interactions that we're able to have, especially online. And so that's again why I think it connects very well to this idea of human connection. How do we be authentic as humans? And and I I just think it's so important given that people have such vastly different experiences of life together. Couldn't agree more.

Um, and I can tell this event has truly impacted you beyond the grief, the suffering you went through. I can tell it has shifted or made you— I don't even want to say reconsider, but change the idea of what a home is or where you're going next. How did it impact your— I would like to at least believe that life happens for us, not against us.

Sure.

But it's in moments like this where it feels very difficult to accept that. It's so painful. I'm curious, what are you taking out of it or how are you recalibrating to where you're going next?

Yeah, I actually similarly share a perspective that life is purposeful. I know that's not— not everyone has to agree to that. That's fine. But I think for me, I shared many of the takeaways I had. But one of them certainly, I think, has to do with like the permanence of things. I think there's a— especially when you're younger, which is no longer true for me, but like there's this desire That things that you establish or that you collect, like they're going to exist forever. You even, even though that doesn't make any sense rationally, like will exist forever in the things you do. Like everyone's sort of the main character in their own life in some ways. And I think here, for better or for worse, like I, I've taken on a perspective that the things I thought would at least last through my lifetime that I could always reflect back on. can go away, you know, due to whatever reason. And even memories go away over time, even for myself. And I think, you know, there are many cliché things to take out of it, but I still think the focus on them, even if they are cliché, is very impactful, important. And so it's this idea of just like appreciating the moment and pursuing and living In like, again, platitudes, I have a— I want to be like hesitant and cautious around, but I do think living in the present is more. And obviously planning and things also matter. But I certainly feel now like there are things that I had saved for a moment that never came right. I had gifts of like these beautiful wines that friends and family gave that I had held that made it even more valuable over 10 years. And I was waiting for a moment that I never knew what that moment would be to open it. And then I'm never going to have that moment, right? And I think more and more the mentality I have is to just appreciate and— Change. And have that moment. Yeah. In the present and not wait around for things, especially with friends, family, loved ones that may not be there forever. And my family and my parents are fortunately here right now still. I think I've been able to spend a lot more time, um, and, and energy with them, and I found that so fulfilling because I maybe similarly had an attitude that they would be around forever.

Couldn't agree more. And I think it's so important to be present and making the moment count and really giving your best to that moment is extremely important. And I think we live a life, and I think— I don't want to say social media is to blame, but social media constantly makes us put things to perspective or compare. It's more so— I think it's so important to be grateful and live the moment and honor it and cherish it and know that it will never exist again. So the best thing you can do is really live it. But that said, I was thinking about it because I share your pain losing your home. I've been in it, I shot it, and there's a beautiful video that will hopefully live forever so people can cherish it. Yeah. And I also asked our team to go to our server, okay, and pull all the footage from your home.

So I really appreciate that.

You at least have some visuals of it. You know, maybe one day you want to show it to someone. It has every single clip of your home that we shot. Oh, that's so kind.

That is. I really—I was actually gonna say, like you weren't just there to tour it after it was finished and furnished. You actually, I think, had some shots like as it was like mid-build. And in the early stages too. And so there was like a lot of memorialization about the whole process that I thought was really nice. Thank you so much.

Of course. Of course. I mean, it's the least we can do. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, thank you again for even at the time letting us in during the tour. I guess the beauty of the video is it can to some degree give permanence to something beautiful. Yeah. Any final thoughts?

No, no, that was a good one just there to end on. Yeah, but I really appreciate that. This is such a thoughtful gift. It was absolute surprise. I don't think I could have thought of a better one myself, so I really appreciate it.

Well, I mean, thank you for coming. Thank you for sharing your story. I really appreciate everything you've done for us, for the world. What you guys have created is amazing, giving opportunity to people to express themselves and and give people a chance to pursue their goals and dreams. It's really exciting. It's a— it's an incredible mission that you guys are after. I also want to gift you— I told you I have 2 gifts.

Oh, okay.

This is our candle that we're— at this point, I think by the time this video is out, we will be launching it. Our company is called Noir. It means the new you. It's made with all natural ingredients, so there's no chemicals. It's a candle that, you know, I cannot clinically prove, but it's good for you.

Okay.

It has no chemicals, no, uh, oil-based products. It's all essential oils and, uh, natural products. So I hope you enjoy it.

Appreciate it so much.

Uh, and once again, thank you so much for coming.

Yeah, and thank you for letting me share a lot of my thoughts and stories. I appreciate it so much. Thank you.

Amazing. Thank you.