Santigold

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Okay.

Ready? Take what you know and it's about.

A time and you get yourself in.

Wheel.

I wanna know something she said.

I think about everyone you need a holding in things are real now I have seen you wanting you hey.

Detour ratio okay though. Detour ratio okay though? That might be the best question I've ever been asked.

You's a phenomenal person. I mean legendary. I am a fan of you, my brother. If you aren't on social media pretending that your life is perfect all the time and you don't have this many followers, which in itself is a prison, can you imagine like you have achieved the dream, you're at the highest level but if you don't constantly put out stuff that fear that you're going to be irrelevant if you're not, you know, looking like everything's perfect. Oh, people aren't going to think that you. You really. And that's a prison. So artists, that's why you get all this mental burnout, you know, to keep the fake reality going is soul draining and it has nothing to do with speaking truth.

My old friend Santi Gold is back with a new album called Spirituals. I love her. I love her music. I love her take on the industry and on creativity. So I wanted to talk about what it was like to make this album, what it's like to be an artist at this point in her career and and in the world. It's really hard to be a recording artist and to make money at this. So I wanted to get into what it is to be a creative person and a creative business person. We talk about all that and more. It's my girl, Santi Gold on Toray show. So tell me about spirituals. The first thing is how do you think this album is different than what you've done before?

You know, I'm not really good at answering those types of questions because I don't really have enough distance from the music to really to say those things. I can tell you that the process of making this record was different because first of all, the circumstances of the world in my environment during the making of this record was unlike anything I've ever experienced. So in that alone, to be making art during that time was very different. Not being able to have any help with my numerous children and you know, at that time, two year old twins and a six year old and trying to find time to create anything was a new situation. And all that was taking place in the world as well was just like, I mean, it just seemed like in the end of the world at some moments, especially when the fires were raging and the clouds dark and you got riots down the street, I was like, wow, you know, so that was a different experience in making a record while all that was happening. And what it did was it helped me to make this record with no concern about what it was going to be as a product, only about what it was in the making for me. I needed to make this record. And that's all I was thinking about when I was making the record. I needed to say the things I was saying. I needed to release the things I was releasing and I needed to create beauty for myself. You know what I mean?

I mean, making art from a place of this is what I need to say. That sounds like the best possible place.

You know, that is so, so true. And it's something that I've really been wrestling with. Not in the creation of the music, but in what you do with it afterwards. The business of music is so removed from why we as artists make the art in the first place that it makes you question why am I doing this? Not why am I doing the music. I'll always do music. But I don't know about this, this business, you know, I don't know about the industry, the entertainment industry as a whole. It's like I feel like the way that entertainment entertainers are regarded, it's like, you know, once we make the art and we try to sustain ourselves as artists through the art, this is rough and it's pretty. It's becoming unsustainable because the commodification of it, particularly music, has become so far removed from what we're talking about. Like I had something to say and that's why I made the art. Well, if you have something to say, that's not what just sold the top, whatever record, the last three top records. Nobody wants to hear that. Well, actually not nobody. The people in charge of the industry don't think anybody wants to hear it. And so it's going to make it really, really hard for you to. To keep going because you kind of get like boxed out. And then if you aren't on social media pretending that your life is per all the time and you don't have this many followers, which in itself is a prison, can you imagine, like, you have achieved the dream, you're at the highest level, but if you don't constantly put out stuff, that fear that you're going to be irrelevant if you're not, you know, looking like everything's perfect. Oh, people aren't going to think that you. You really. And that's a prison. So artists, that's why you get all this mental burnout. You know, to keep the fake reality going is soul draining. And it has nothing to do with speaking truth.

Well, I want to dig into that with you because you, sonically are a pioneer. You're an original. You are clearly not following what everybody else is doing. Everybody else wants Dababy on the single that, like, that is not you. Everybody else wants, you know, like, there's different trends that people are following. If you do this, you'll get on top 40, you'll get streaming, blah, blah, blah. You are like, no. And for the first thing, how do you do that? Are you like, not listening to certain things so that you're not even aware and shaped by, like, what other people are? Cause it seems like a lot of recording artists are like, you know, doing something very similar, their own take on something similar. And then there's a small group of people like you who are like, no, no, no, I'm listening to here and I'm following this in here.

I'm just smiling at you, Torre, because I'm looking at you and I'm listening to your questions and I love that you're like an interesting person and you ask interesting questions. But I'm also looking at you and I just found pictures of us on my senior prom. And I'm like, aw, Torre.

That was such a nice day. It was such a nice day.

You came on my prom.

That was such a nice day.

Anyway, I just found that I gotta send it to you.

You asked me to take you on your.

I know, because I just didn't want the pressure. I just. No, I know. I wanted. I wanted. I wanted a friend to go with me because I just didn't want the pressure of it all, you know? And I was like, oh, that's Torre.

No, it was a super. It was. I still in April and everything. It was a Super nice day. It was a super nice day.

I know, I know. But anyway, it's just awesome that you're such a, you know, interesting and smart person asking me these questions. I like it anyway, so I do. I do. I don't listen to that much music, but not because. Not on purpose. It's just that it's really hard to find good music because there's so much every day, like, it's like, what is it, 30,000, 50,000 songs a day that are coming out now, and it's so much noise. And it's like you really have time. Have to have time to go through it all and find out what's good. So I don't do that much, but my husband, Trevor. Yeah, Trevor listens to a lot of music. So he. Luckily, he'll come and be like, did you hear this? Did you hear this? So I do actually somehow kind of know the things that I need to know that are out, which I think is important. You know, you got to have your ear to the streets. Like, you got, you know, you just got to have to know. You have to know what's going on. Even if you don't listen to it all the time. You have to know what's going on. Because I think it informs. It informs. Well, informs me, because I think it's cool. I think some of the stuff that's out is cool, and it's like, lets you know where the cultural consciousness is. And I think that's important if you're making art, because you don't want to be outside on, like, some. I mean, if you want people to hear it or connect with it at all, you want to be in the same place as them, you know, not exactly the same place, but in the same general field, you know, And I think that. That that's what's important, because it's not like I'm thinking when I'm making a song, oh, I want. I want people to like it. And I want. I mean, of course, anybody, anytime you make art, you want people to be impacted by it, you know, But I'm not like, I need this to be in the top radio, blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm never thinking that because I already know I don't make music like that because I don't follow the formula of whatever's happening. But I do think if I put myself in the field of what's going on by just being a part of it, by paying attention. So just how you read the news occasionally. I don't want to read the news Too much, because it brings me. It, like, paralyzes me almost. So you just take enough that you are still in the field. And that's what I do with music. And obviously, if I hear something great, I hear, you know, that doesn't happen as frequently as I want. And partially because I'm not searching deep enough. Because it's. A lot of times the stuff that's right in your face isn't the greatest. Yeah.

Yeah. So you're kind of aware. I mean, I guess this could be sort of any artist. Like, you're kind of aware of what's going on, of what streaming wants, of what the people want. But you, More than most, 99% of artists, chart your own course. And it's sort of.

I do because. Yeah. Cause, I mean, I can't tell you I'm aware of what the people want. I actually am not. I don't really get it most of the time, but I am aware of what's getting played, and I'm aware. And I don't think that necessarily is what the people want, necessarily. Or, like, I think it's like, you know, if you grew up eating McDonald's every day, you think you want McDonald's. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's just. You don't know anything else. So that's what you say you want. You're like, food. Okay, I'll just take a big Mac or McDonald's.

Yeah.

Yes. Okay. But I think if people were exposed to different kinds of music and actually were exposed to music that serve different purposes, like showing us that there are other options, you know, there's other realities, there's other systems that we could be a part of, then they would actually start to want those other things. And so that's what I think is a disservice about commodification and industry. Controlling art in this way is. It's actually doing probably what it intends to do, is limit people's minds, limit people's creativity, limit people's view of how much power they hold. And I think that's dangerous. And as far as, like, trying to get people on my record, I do. I do know that every single record has. Is full of features now.

Yeah.

And there was a moment.

Features.

I need features on this record. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, just. You just need them. You have no chance. And there was a moment I was like, I need features. And I started reaching out to people, and then I was like, this sucks.

Wait, what sucks? And I don't even want what sucks about that.

Well, first of all, you know, just trying to even get in touch with people sometimes it's like you got managers, you know, it's just like, whatever. People that you know, you know, if you talk to, whatever. But then the manager's like, oh, yeah, yeah, whatever. And you're just like, I can't. I can't even do this. And also thinking about my song, I don't actually in my heart want anybody on the song. And so I had to go back to that. And that's. And that's the thing. It's like, you know, people. People try to help me. They're like, what do you. What about this person? I was like, they not going to say nothing to what I'm talking about with this song. You know what I mean? And I'm like, I just can't roll my songs. And so eventually I. I stopped and I was. And better for it, I was like, thank you. Like, stay in line with yourself and what you know you really are doing and don't get tempted by what everybody's saying or what. And that's a constant fight. Like, I'm not going to act like that's not something that I deal with, but I, I luckily keep pulling myself back in line with my heart. And that's the key.

But that is a constant fight for a serious original artist again in any genre. And part of the fight, I imagine, is that there is a sort of punishment almost for not following the trends and those sort of things.

Oh, yeah, right.

And like the gatekeepers of streaming, of video, of radio are like, not gonna check for you. Even though clearly the serious artists, people who seriously care about music are put you on a high level. Right. But like you're saying, oh yeah, like there is, there is a punishment for not falling in line.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, it's very real to be a black artist. That's outside the box of what black music is allowed to be.

Right.

And that has not really changed people, like, oh yeah, you know, you're a pioneer. And like. And ever since, you know, you came out, there's so many more people allowed to exist outside of genres. And like, yes, yes, that's true. And they, there are. But are those people ever winning Grammys? Are those people played on the radio? Are those people. Are the gates open? No, not at all. Are the black women who are at the top of the charts still, you know, mostly like, over sexualized? Yes. Like, it hasn't really changed, but what's changed is like the Internet. So, yes, you can put Music out, you can find an audience, whatever, but you're not being let in past a certain level if you're not doing what black people are supposed to be doing, which is talking about, you know, money, drugs, bitches and singing R and B and hip hop. Yeah. And that's just a fact. You know, white people, like, look what Lil Nas X comes out, breaks open the country scene and they're like protesting him being at the Country Music Awards or whatever. Until Billy Ray's Eyes is like, okay, you know, I'll sanction this, you know, but let any white rapper is gonna be one of the hugest white rappers, you know, if they're good, if they're any good at all.

Doesn't even have to be good.

They don't face the same. No. Ever since, like, ever since, you know, the Rolling Stones or like Janis Joplin or anybody, they've been borrowing from, I mean, Elvis, they've been borrowing from, taking from black artists from the beginning. And it's wow, they're so, you know, they're so interesting and they're so creative and they're doing all these amazing things. But we try it and they're like, they're not black enough. They're weird. That will never work. They'll never be an audience for that. Nobody wants to hear a black person doing that. And it's like, you know, so we, so we see still, we still face these things. Like, you know, Taylor Swift can go from country music to pop to trying to rap on her songs. It's all good. But she's still, you know, while I'm still over here, you know, critically acclaimed, Woo Hoo, you know, but can barely pay my bills sometimes, you know what I'm saying? Especially after Pandemic and it's. Meanwhile you have those artists. I mean, that's white privilege. That's what it is. You know, it's just like, you know, still black artists are still not allowed to be the full range of who we are and white artists are. And then you have situations just like Elvis taking people's music or whoever and them not getting credit, whatever. I'm not saying, I don't know specifics of Elvis. I know this movie came out, I don't know. But forever, forever in music this has been going on. And I just had a situation with Taylor Swift where her song London Boy blatantly takes disparate youth and was not cleared. You know, tell me what happened there. What happened there was the song came out, I got hit up by everybody on social media. Like, Taylor Swift just used disparate Youth, you know, on your. And so I. So I'm like, hmm. I listen to the song. I'm like, oh, yeah, obviously. So I hit up, you know, my publisher, and they're like, oh, we had a conflict there. We didn't hear that. But we actually represented the other person on the same song that she had to clear with. So I guess they didn't want to clear. I don't know if she's taking a melody from one other artist and a music from another artist. So creative. But then she, you know, she didn't feel like she wanted to clear too many things, so she just consulted every musicologist. Cause when I reached out to musicologists, everybody had a conflict of interest. So they had all been, you know, reached out to. And so was told to change, like, the one note that puts it in the gray area, the safe, gray area that nobody really wants to spend enough money challenging. And so basically I was just, like, locked out. And it's. That's that privilege. Like, she can do that to people.

She's super rich and she comes from a lot of money. So wait, so she takes.

But why? But why? That's not the only reason, Torre. She's also a white woman doing this music. She's one of the biggest people in the world because it's easy, you know, to be. You know what I mean?

She takes disparate youth. Was it the bass line or the melody line?

Listen to the song. It's literally the music.

But she changed one note. She's supposed to.

I can't even hear. It's like the littlest. Yeah, she's supposed to click whatever she was supposed to change to put it in the gray area.

She's supposed to clear it with you, which would mean you would get a piece of the song. Yes, but, like, I don't want to give another piece of the song away. We talk about, like, 5%, 10%, like, I don't know.

I don't know. It actually depends. For that song, it should have been, like, a substantial amount of song because it really made up the basis of the music. So my point is that, like, where we are today is not that much different from where we started out in terms of people controlling what gates are open to us and what can be done to us as artists, as black artists, as black female artists is still really fucked up.

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Available only at Circle K. When you're feeling the heat, Circle K makes your day. You just alluded to the pandemic and it was hard for you because you couldn't tour for a while. And that in that in the modern world where, you know, record sales are not what they used to be, that is the core of where you're going to make your money. So if you can't tour for like two years or.

Yeah, that's a misconception as well.

Tell me.

It, it is part of it. It, it is part of it. Touring is a way to make money. Yes. But the misconception is that that then makes up for the fact that you spend a lot of money making records and then you give them away for free, it actually doesn't make up for it. And what you're seeing now is like, like, yeah, you can go out and make some money, but unless you're doing like, see, there's so many different levels of artists. If you're like top level, like the highest paid artist, yes, you can make money touring. You're also making money on like insane amounts of merch and all kinds of other stuff. But then if you're like, at my level, you got on touring. Yeah, like, I can, I can pay some bills touring. Unless I'm doing All festivals, that's a better. Festivals pay more. But, like, your own shows, they pay. But what happens is there's all these. There's all these middle, you know, handlers. So. So, like, if you're gonna buy tickets, I price my tickets and I try to make them affordable because people don't have money. Like, it's a real thing. Especially at the Pandemic, people don't have money. And you want your fans to be able to. To support you and come out and see what they, you know, get your music. So then it goes through, like, the Ticketmasters and whatever, and they mark up, markup, markup, and they, you know, you don't get the money, the fans, and then all of a sudden, you know, none of the money's coming to you. And then by the time you get out there now, specifically, post Pandemic, which is where you're going, there is. Gas prices are six times higher. You know, the. The buses are more expensive because everybody's out. Because everybody's out. You can't get the venues. You need to book your full tour to support, you know, as many days as you're out on the road, because everybody's trying to get the same venues in the same time. Hotels and flights are crazy. And so actually, like, right now, post Pandemic, this is unprecedented. Touring is a mess and unsustainable. I'm gonna say that. Like, and then the other problem is, even if you are touring at the highest level, I mean, those. Those things are affected people at all levels, honestly. Like, people aren't being able to make profit touring, but also to not be able to make that much money touring or even if you can make some money touring but say that's like, your only means of making an income as an artist, well, there's the burnout, which is. I mean, I just saw this article come out the Guardian, like, yesterday or something about why are so many musicians canceling tours? And, you know, no matter what level they're at, they're canceling their tours. They're saying mental health. They're saying this. I mean, really, if you think about how people like the rate of consumption and even at the, you know, the highest levels of successful, what we see, what we have deemed success to be, right, is basically you being on social media all the time and being accessible all the time and having to pretend that you're perfect all the time and your life is perfect and you're doing so well all the time, and then you go out of your house, you got people following you around like that's a prison in itself. Right? But then to have to be churning out product constantly for fear that you will not be relevant if you don't, that's insane. If somebody said to me, oh, somebody hasn't put out a record in forever since 2018, and I was like, it was a pandemic that's.

You're being pressured to release annually.

People. Everybody is. I mean, I. Yes. In fact, I mean, I've kind of shot myself in the foot by not doing that. I don't know about that actually, because there's like this whole. I didn't, I mean, I did from a, from a marketing standpoint and maybe like my social media sucks, which means I'm not getting money from brands and whatever, whatever. But I've stayed in line with my integrity, which ultimately means I'm in a better place than, than so many of these people out there who are, who are just kind of in their own prison that they created who we think are the most successful people, but they're draining their souls every day trying to live up to other people's expectations of what they should be doing. And I mean, that's why you see people quitting like left and right. And we're not going to be able to continue this. I mean, it's unsustainable financially for musicians right now, but it's also going to be unsustainable from a health, a mental health standpoint, from a physical health standpoint, from an emotional health standpoint. It's actually this rate of consumption and what we are expecting from these people that we say are our heroes and then, you know, judge and you know, scrutinize whatever. It's actually, it's not, it's not healthy. I know you're talking for culture, because.

I know you're talking about the world, but you're also about yourself. Are you saying you are, it's. Are you saying that in some you might quit making music or being a professional recording artist? Is that possible?

Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna ever quit making music. But as far as being a professional recording artist, if that means that my well being is gonna be depending on entering this insanely unsustainable system that doesn't respect the artist on which it's built, then yes. I'm not going to continue to do that now. Not until it changes or I'm going to do something else.

So are you saying this might be your last album?

No, I'm not saying that at all. Because that's the thing, like I Know, I'm going to make records no matter what, because that's what I do. And that's where we started the conversation is what I do because I need to and because I want to, and I will. But I'm at this point where I'm like, I'd love to find something else to do that takes better care of me as a career.

Like what?

Cause this career doesn't take care of its. What are we. What are artists to the art industry?

Mm.

Mm. Exactly.

So what?

Pawns.

Pawns. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what else would you do?

Oh, are you kidding me? I'm an artist. You know, I'm a creator. I already got, like, 50 things that I'm working on. The problem is it takes so much time and energy to, like, try to keep up and, like, keep the momentum and blah, blah, blah, blah. And you realize, like, I could be doing all this other stuff that I really care about that I've actually already started. So I would love to shift focus and to finish some of these other projects and hopefully be able to, you know, find a different pace and in constant enjoyment. No, no, I know nothing is constantly enjoyable, and that's not what I need. But I need something that feels, like, healthy.

Are you. Are you mean, like, balance? You mean, like, I'm gonna become a painter or a writer or, like, do something?

There's all kinds of things there. There's all kinds of things. I mean, I've been talking about some of these things in press already, but I don't want to go too into them. But I'm working on a book idea, I'm working on a film idea. I'm working on other projects. I don't want to because every time I mention something, then it ends up. Everybody asks me in the interviews, and it's really not time, but. Well, it's just not time for me to go in depth about them. But, like, yeah, all the other things that I love to do all of them. Would you.

Would it be easier or harder for you if you were in a band and you had other people to carry the emotional load?

Oh, I don't think that's easier at all. You know, I have so many friends that are in bands because then everybody's reaching existential crises at different times and in different ways and want to do different things about it. And so you've got the external pressures and you've got the internal pressures because it's too much pressure anyway.

I wonder about the pressure you feel while you're creating. Do you think about Like, I mean, like, you're. You know, you're. The choices you make have to resonate with, you know, thousands and thousands of people. Right. Hopefully a million people. Like, do you feel a certain pressure of, like, how do I. How do I get this song to be liked by, you know, hundred thousand, a million people? Yeah.

Yeah. I don't think about that at all, actually. What I really believe, and I'm not saying I never have, but where I finally arrived, I don't, because it never was ever helping to do anything but get in the way. And so I don't do that anymore, because what I believe now is from where I'm coming from. And the people that do value me and have continuously supported me are the people who respect that I have integrity.

Absolutely.

And that I'm honest, and that's all I need to do to serve the people that are interested in me is to continue to do that. So I really feel that we lead by example. And if music is meant to help push culture forward and help us all evolve, then I have to evolve, which means that I have to learn to stay in my truth. And so that's what I'm. That's what. That's. The only pressure in making music for me is to stay in line with that.

I have resisted on this show, and it's not been hard, but I just had a sort of rule for myself to not ask women artists about the challenge of being a mother and an artist. But, like, I know your kids. I love your kids.

Why not?

I have a lot of kids. Well, no, but I don't want to be like everybody else. Right. Because you don't think to ask men that question. But, you know.

Well, because the challenge is different. The challenge is different.

Absolutely.

That's why you don't ask them.

Absolutely. The challenge is definitely different for moms. And as much as the dad wants to be there, the mom is going to do at least 60% of the work. And when the kid is really upset, they're like, I'm.

In some households, it's. It's not always the case. But from. In. Almost. In, like, so many cases, I can tell you a couple houses where it's not like that, but in most of the people I know, you're right. That is.

And when the kid.

And that's because of these gender roles.

Well, yeah, but, you know. And when the kid is really upset, they want mom, which is a lot of. But you alluded to this earlier, and I wanted to dig into it about the challenge of creating while You. While you also have these small children all around who are amazing, and you need them, and they need you. And that work is draining emotion. It's emotionally and mentally draining. And then to try to, like, focus on a creative project in the midst of the roller coaster of little kids is really hard. So how do you do that?

Yeah, it's funny. I just, you know, I'm not very good at social media, but I just release these photos that I did with kind of a theme in mind. And I called the photos Mom Life. And the one. The first photo that I posted was a picture of me standing by the pool dressed way too much up to be, you know, at home with my kids. But it's just like wishing you were somewhere else. You dress for something else, right? Standing at the pool, holding a drink in hand while the kids jump in the pool and I'm on fire, you know, and. And somebody. I think it was a young person with no children, but they were like, seems like you really don't like being a mother. And I'm like, I love being a mother. I love being my kids. My kids are the best. They're hilarious. They're just. They're kind. They're wonderful. But that doesn't mean that I can just be in that mode all the time without being able to step away and be myself and be an artist, be a creator, and just be myself, an autonomous being, you know, which you kind of. You lose as a mother. And you have to find ways to just create space to be at least in spaces. And as an artist, that's extremely important, because just like you can lose yourself in fame, you can lose yourself in motherhood, you can lose yourself in anything where you're not allowing yourself to be all of who you are. And so it's really important to have that balance. To be a good mother, for me means to be able to step away from this so that I can bring my best self to the table as a mother.

Yes, yes, yes. The time to step away from your children is so valuable to you. Then really appreciating them when you come back to them.

Right? And then also, I was gonna say, and also for them to see go for them to see you guard your autonomy and your creative space like that is modeling for them what they should do. And to see you shine in your creative glory is modeling for them what they should go after. Like, live your truth.

Wait, your oldest is how old?

Eight, Eight and a half.

Does he have really an idea of, like, what you do and who you are?

He's really intelligent emotionally and in every way. So, yes, he does. He does. He. You know, and it's not because, you know, we were in lockdown for a while, and he was only six going into that. He went on tour with me when he was 2. He doesn't remember that. Barely at all. I'm sure it's like, in his. You know. But he doesn't remember going from city to city. Country, country. What he does know is he loves tour buses and he loves hotels and he loves room service. He remembers that.

Right, right, right.

He's like, I don't know how I know this, but I love this. But he. So it wasn't from him seeing it so much as him knowing that when we were in the middle of the woods in Canada, I left every day. Cause we went during the pandemic, during. We went for five months to Canada, like, really remotely. And I still rented a cabin away. And I would go every day for about eight hours. This is when I was deep into, like, finishing the production on the album. He knows mom goes to work, you know, and then he's also interested. When he. When he finally did come to a festival recently, he was like, wow. Like, how are people responding to you? Is interesting. You know, that's what's interesting. And then I'm very vocal about the struggle and the reality of it. So he's interested in that, too. So he. I think on some level he understands. Of course he doesn't understand the.

I wonder if I. If I asked him, what does Mommy do for a living, would he say she's a rock star?

No, he would say she's a singer.

She's a singer. Okay. Okay. Same father. Okay. Okay.

So wait, so no, because Rockstar is really based on the, like, sort of, like, reception of you.

True.

And singer is based on what you. I mean, I know singer is not an artist, but it's based on what you do.

Yeah.

You know, what is the skill?

Yeah, yeah. Yes, that. No, that's totally fair. It would be great if someday he understands not only that mom goes somewhere to another cabin and sings, but also, like, lots of people really like it. Like, really, like, want her music and, like, look up to her musically.

He understands a little bit. Like, he's like, how come you have followers and I don't have followers? You know what I mean? He's, like, really excited. I mean, he's eight, like I said, and he's eight, and he knows social media better than I do. He's like, of course he does. I told Him, I was doing a podcast and he's like, mom, you know, you should do like different seasons of one. Like, you shouldn't just do one season. And I was like, thank you, 8 year old. Like, you're right. You know, he's like. I'm like, radek, how you do this on the computer? Like, he really.

Oh, my God.

He knows. Oh, my God.

My son's my IT guy. So wait, so the first thing that I was trying to talk about was spirituals. The album, the title.

I derailed you.

You did, but it was a beautiful. It was a beautiful road that we derailed onto. So that title, you're talking about the relationship, right, of your music to Negro spirituals, Is that what you're doing?

I'm talking about the relationship of my process and what this music did for me to Negro spirituals. So it's not really about the songs and the music itself, where it's like, these songs are my interpretation of Negro spirituals. It's actually saying in making this record, these songs did for me what Negro spirituals did for the slaves who were not free, who were not in joyous environments, but were able to transcend through the music, to experience freedom, enjoy in the music, in the singing, in the act of making this music. And for me, the making of this record did that for me. It was. It let me, you know, go inward and upward and. And transcend the confines of my environment to create beauty and light in a time where it was lacking. Yeah, to allow me to feel free and also to allow me to release a lot. A lot of emotions that in survival mode, particularly at that time, I wasn't allowing myself to access.

Wait, what emotions are you talking about?

I mean, like. Well, there was so much going on. I mean, there was the pandemic, which at that point nobody knew what. What this thing was and what was gonna happen. So there's like fear of that. There was. California was literally on fire. The world was on fire. Australia had been on fire, like, everywhere. And the climate stu. Terrifying. Then you've got all the brutality going on towards black people and the police, you know, just killing person after person, which has been going on. But it was just right in your face. And then George, Floyd, I mean, everybody. And so there's. There's anger, there's. There's. There's fear, there's anger. Fear for your kids, fear for you, feel for, you know, but there's anger and there's sadness, immense sadness. And I'm talking about generational trauma now. That's Being triggered. Triggered. You know, this is stuff that we have been experiencing since the beginning of us being here in this country and that our ancestors have gone through and told us about. And that's now in our bodies. Our reaction to that stuff runs so deep, so in survival mode because of what was going on around us in that moment, but also in survival mode because black women are always in survival mode, and black people are always in survival mode because our bodies are constantly telling us that we're in danger, because in many ways, we are. It was interesting, you know, especially when all that stuff was going down. I had to only take in a little bit, you know, because otherwise you just get, like I said, paralyzed, just shut down. It was too much. So I would only check, you know, social media every now and then just to see what's happening. But my. My body had gone into, like, don't let that stuff out right now, because you still have to take care of your family, and you have to get up and you have to bite butts and you have to cook and you have to scrub the shower, and. You know what I mean? And, like, you can't really fall apart right now. You can't afford to fall apart right now. And it wasn't until I went to my back house and my own space and started writing songs like nothing, which is about invisibility, about being told that you're valueless, what it's like to live under that veil of invisibility and what that does to a body, you know, that I started to be able to sort through some of these feelings and write it down. Just to name things is freeing and powerful. Just to be able to write something down and put it a feeling in words. And that's why music is so important to people who don't make music. Because sometimes it's just somebody else speaking your truth for you so that you can hear it. And you're like, that's it. You know? And that is why music is so important and so powerful and helps us all evolve. Because in the act of my release, I'm allowing other people to release with me.

I imagine that as this notion of this is like spirituals for me, and what you're talking about, the process is unlocking you, that that's something that you realize as you're going through it is that sort of. Did it come to you, like, as you're working through these songs of, like, hey, this is like that for me?

Yeah, it did. And in fact, the title spirituals just popped. That's how it Works with me, with art sometimes. Sometimes I just have to make space for something else to come through and just get my thinking self out of the way just to receive. And that's how I get a lot of things. So spirituals, Boom. Spirituals popped in my head, and I'm like, what's that? And then over time, somebody said, hey, what are you gonna call your album? And it just came out spirituals. And then I had to think, like, what? You know, And I made the connection. And that's how a lot of things come. That's how lyrics come. That's how melodies come. But I did know. I've always said that, you know, I need to create and blah, blah, but I didn't really see how intense of a need it was until this whole. This record was really a strong message for me about the power of creation for me. And it literally. Making this record was literally like weaving myself a lifeline to take hold of.

Wait, so you still love making music?

Yes, that's why I'm telling you. I'm like, this is. I'll definitely keep making music just sitting.

I mean, like, if just sitting alone in a room and just. Just like, that is your joy place.

Well, doing it alone is not that fun. I'm not that type of person. I'm not Prince. Like, I don't know. I don't know anything about how Prince made music, but I know Prince could play everything and whatever. Like, that's not me. I suck at playing instruments, but I'm good at writing, and so I need community. That's what makes it fun. People ask me, why do you always do so many collaborations? Because to me, music is a communal thing. It's meant to be made often, like, the writing that's personal. I like writing in a room by myself. I don't really like to do that in a group. But making the music, to me, is a time to share energy and share like it's a collective process. And so this was actually a strange one because I was in a room by myself the whole time. But I actually had. Luckily, I had been in a room with a couple people beforehand. Like, I had started, like, four of the tracks with Doc McKinney, who I've been writing with since the beginning of me ever writing songs. So, like, he and I wrote together on Reese's record in 98. I mean, it came out in, like, 2001, but we started writing together in probably 98. And those are first. First songs I ever wrote. Really, like, the first professional songs I ever wrote. I Was working with Documentary, and then he's written with me on Stiffed, My punk band, and he's written me. So it was like I actually got with him only four months after I'd had the twins. And it was like one of those moments where I was like, get me out of motherhood, you know, just for a couple minutes. Like, I'm still breastfeeding. Like, I love it. But, like, you know, he was like, come right with me. I was like, I got four hours. Four hours a day for a couple days. So we went in and we came up with these four demos, which ended up being my horror fall. First, Nothing. And then he introduced me to Ill Angela, who came in on those sessions. And then he and I did Ain't Ready. So it was big songs that we started, but that was like a couple years before, in, I think, 2018. So then 2019, I was just doing a couple writing sessions with new people that I'd never worked with. And it wasn't even for my record. I was like, I don't know if I'm making record. Let's just write some music and see what we do with it and just give it to other people, whatever. So I met Lido, I met Simon. And then right before lockdown in 2020, probably, if I'm right, it must have been January, February of 2020, or the very end of 2019. I met Subtract and I met P2J. So I had luckily just got in a room enough to get a vibe, you know, skeletal tracks. And then when I decided to actually start a record, I just started going through and pulling this stuff together. And so then by that time, nobody was getting together anymore. And thank God for technology, because, like, I did record, I wrote all the lyrics alone in a room in my studio, and I and my engineer recorded me from afar using my equipment, because technology's insane. So he recorded me like he was in the room with me, but he wasn't using my mic, my stuff, you know, all my, you know, board equipment and stuff. And so then as far as the production is, like, we were not anywhere near the production. I'm talking skeletal ideas. So to finish the production, that part took place largely when I was in Canada and I was in the middle of, like, the mossy forest with only a woodpecker there with me, you know, and some chickens. And I got to hang out all day with, like, Boys Noise, who was actually. He lived in Berlin, but he was in Portugal, because everybody's somewhere weird, you know, or Rock or Simon or you know, all these people. And it was great. Cause I hadn't had a friend near me in so long. But I got to sit all day long and hang out with these people. So it was just like. It was such a communal experience. And that's fun for me. If I was by myself in a room, I would have been really sad. I was by myself in a room. But if I felt by myself in a room, it would have been very different.

So help me understand your process. As you are saying, I'm a great writer of lyrics and of songs, right. Of the music for the song. But you don't like your playing. But you're.

Oh, I'm a terrible player.

But you're a really good producer. Is that right?

Yeah. I mean, yes, I'm a really good producer. Because usually the outcome of the song is only because of how I see it, you know, so there's some tracks where somebody gives me a track and I'm like, this is crazy. It doesn't need anything. And that happens. But a lot of times I have some idea that doesn't exist where I'm like, I want to take this piece of this and this piece of this and make it like this. And that's my skill as a producer. It's like envisioning it and getting it exactly right. The sounds have to be exactly right. This has to be exactly right. The textures, the mix. That's my skill. But I need partners because I'm not sitting at the machines producing all the sounds. Like, you know, the way that Doc and I write from scratch, for example, is. Doc's know me forever, so he knows I care mostly about the vibe in the writing stage. I don't really care how built out the beat is. If you give me a shitty guitar sound. I love shitty guitar sounds. And. And put some. Some crazy. Some really good effect on it, then I can write the whole song. I don't need anything else, you know, just maybe a drum beat. And he knows I'm so picky. I hate everything. So if we want to go fast, he's like, you do it. You come up with a bass line. Gives me the bass, I play the bass. And then I'm like, loop it. Because I only got like one. One measure right. So, like, loop that part that I played well. And then he goes, go ahead, you know, choose the sound on the keyboard. And I choose the sound of the keyboard. I play that. And so if we want to move fast, it's quicker if I write it, because I know I'm a Like it, you know. But not to say there's so many people that I go to like, people like Rostam, people like Doc, people like Nick Zenner, who I know they're gonna come with. They're. They're like, like minded. I. They have taste that I. I love. Their sounds are gonna be right, their parts are gonna be right. And I love working with people like that because then it does take the pressure off. These people are brilliant. Like, all the people that worked on this record, I chose them because, like, I knew boys noise could make, you know, beats that sound like they could be in a hip hop song with 808s and subs, but he could do it outside of that context in a way that felt really real but really creative. And that's why I chose him. And I knew, I knew Doc could bring punk rock in a way that like nobody else was gonna do. And I knew that Rossam then could take that same. We started this fall first with Doc, but then Rossum came with all these crazy, like, moving like, shoegazer sounds and this kind of sound and this kind of sound. And then what I do is I'm like, this song's amazing. Let me fuck it up. Let me put this background vocal right in the front and let me do, you know, and let me put this crazy, you know, and just so it's envisioning. How do I then make this unexpected?

Can you sit at the board and make it or are you just like. I hear it in my head and let me work on it.

If I'm sitting at the board, we're usually doing everybody a disservice. It's slow, it's dysfunctional. I'm not good at it. So that's not where I'm best. Now in this, this particular instance, you know, I'm in a cabin in Canada. I had to record myself sometimes. I had to, like. There are times where I do like, play bass on a song or I definitely play keys on a song and I. I'll play parts on a song, but that's when it's a pretty basic part and, and, and I want it to sound kind of how I play it, which is extra like. I call it punk rock up. Really. It's like sometimes people play too good. Like I'll play guitar if I think somebody's playing it too good. And I don't want it to sound like that. But often I come out with parts that are too hard for me to play. Like. Like for instance, on the baseline, on nothing. And I was like, okay, Doc, I have this bass line, and so I play it, but it's, like, clunky and not even and whatever. I'm like, here, can you play it? He's like, yep. So that's how I do it. I'm like, here's my idea. Can you fix it or can you do this? But then I'm like, sometimes, which is great. This is the best part, where all the pressure is not on you, and you're like, I want it to feel like this. You know, like for High Priestess, for example, that was a song that I did start with Ray Brady, and, you know, we got it pretty far. But then I was like, I want it to be punk mixed with, like, this rap feel. But then, you know, we can't. We tried adding guitar and, like, a live drum, and it was just so Limp Bizkit, like, not. Not what I was trying to do. And so what I. What I. I asked Simon who. I was like, simon, I want this to feel punk. I wanted to have the angst and the energy and the push and pull. And he took it somewhere totally different. And him and Ryan Olsen brought this. This punk energy that was in any way what we have thought of as being punk sounds. But it was so punk. And so that's what's cool about working with collaborators who, you know are also brilliant creatives is that sometimes they have the better ideas. And you're like, let's. This is where I want to go. What can you bring? And they bring it. We see you getting after your fitness goals, but what about those money goals? You can count on credit Karma for.

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So some creators in the studio are searching for the right sound the right thing, and they find it. And some people are like, knowing I hear it in my head. I'm trying to get this to sound like what's in my head. I know what I want. Are you more that knower? Are you searching at times? Are you like, I know what I want. I just need it to sound like it sounds in my head.

I think that changes from song to song. There's songs where there's zero thought about it at all. Like the song Shake, it just came, boom, done. You know, I never would have imagined that I would ever have a song that sounds like that. I wouldn't even imagine that Subtract would have made a track that sounded like that, you know, So I did not know this is what I want a song to sound like. I heard it and I was like, hmm, this is interesting. I like this. And then the melody literally came out exactly the way it was. And the lyric shake came out exactly as I opened my mouth. So that's a song that just made itself as far as I'm concerned, and that happens. And then there's also a song like. Like. Like I just described in High Priestess, where I'm like, I did have something in mind. Starting it. I want a song that does this and this. So that was that different experience that you're talking about. But then there's a song like no, paradise, where it was kind of a challenge the whole time, because I was. I started out with a track, you know, writing session with P2J, where he had a track that was basically the. The basis of that song. And he was like. I was like, I like this track. And he's like, okay, you want to go try to sing something to it? I said, yeah. So I go in the booth, nothing. I couldn't think of anything. And I came out and I said, I like this track, but I can't. I can't hear anything on it because everything I kept hearing sounded so, like, typical Afrobeats, you know, because this track was really very Afrobeats. And I was like, I like it, but I just keep coming up with really typical ideas. I said, do you hear anything on it? Which I don't often do. And he said, yes. I said, go in there you go. Sing what you hear. And he did, and he killed it. And I was like, wow, okay, okay. That's a whole different approach to what I was hearing. So then I was like, okay, let me go back in. So then I went back in and I scored. People suffering, they Suffer Rent. Done it. Keep up and he's like, whoa. And I was like, but it wouldn't have happened if he didn't come in first with a different approach. And. And so from there, I took it from there. And then I was trying to figure out where else to take it. And I definitely wanted to bring in other elements. So I was listening to these ladies called the Leisure Du Sisters. These twins from Nigeria in the 70s. They're so good. And I love group vocals. I love women. Like, black women. Sort of traditional African nasal singing style. It's in Jamaican music, too. It's like when black women sing in a group, and it's, like, very nasal, and that's how they are. And I was like, I want, like, vocals kind of like that. And, like, weird harmonies that sit kind of awkward on the track. And so I came up with the chorus like that. But it was. And then just even cute. I was like, man, it needs some, like, tom Tom club. And it needs some, like, all these elements that don't necessarily go with afrobeats. I was like, it needs this. Because I didn't. I wanted to do something interesting. I wanted to push it, you know, so that when I was searching in the studio.

So wait, you hear the words in the song. Like they're playing your beat, your music, and then you're hearing. Oh. Like, you see it in the music and pull it out?

Sometimes, yeah. Mostly. I don't usually write lyrics ahead of time, and my process is kind of strange. Like, I know a lot of people do melody first, and I do melody first. So I get a vibe, and then I quickly. Doc calls it blacking out. Cause it's like. I'm like, that's it, that's it. And I need the mic instantly. I need it right then. Or else I'm gonna forget the whole vibe. And if you ask me what I had in my mind five minutes later, I have no idea what I sang. That's why he says, you blacked out. He's like, oh, I like when you did this. I'm like, what did I do? I have no idea. So I have to record it. And so I just go. And I just go with my melody, and I sing gibberish. Like, I sing phonetic sounds. I sing, you know, the rhythms, the exactly how I want it. And then this is where it gets weird. Then I write down exactly what it sounds like I said. Words that don't make any sense together or words that aren't even words. And I write it down, the whole song. And then it's like a puzzle. Sometimes There'll be a word like shake or suffering. Suffering, whatever. Sometimes there's nothing since that you can make sense of. And from there, it's like a puzzle. I start to piece in words that make sense in that literally start with the same letter and, you know, the same consonants and like, you know, and because I like so much what I've got that I want to keep it. And I know that if you get a word that's too loose, that doesn't fit, then it doesn't sound the same. It changes the feel. So it's like a real hard puzzle. And in that process, the lyrics actually come. So it might be one word that makes me think of this. And anyway, whatever's on my heart's gonna come out. So, you know, they'll come out, like, around themes or whatever. But sometimes it's triggered by a word that I have on the page.

So it's not.

That is just out of context.

It sounds like you're really primarily writing on the mic rather than with a pen.

No, no. Yes and no. I am allowing. The mic is where the inspiration comes through. Right. But then it's crafted with the pen.

Interesting.

So they're both super necessary. If you asked me to sing lyrics while I was on the mic, it would be the worst lyrics. Like, embarrassing. You know, some people do that. Some people can write great lyrics right there on the mic. That is not me. I'm somebody who has say to sit and think and change words and. And really craft it over time. And really, sometimes it might flow out in like, 10 minutes, which is rare. That's like shake. But other times, like Disparate Youth, for example, that song took me three months just to write the lyrics. That was long. Usually it's more like a day or two. Sometimes if it's not working, I'm gonna have to just sit with it for a little bit. But the pen part is really important because that's where. That's where the writer part of me gets to flex. Like, where I'm like, really? I want to say it exactly. Like, I want to say it, but sticking with what I came up with on the mic. The spontaneity that came through on the mic is the essence. But now I got to make it exactly right with the pen.

And what else?

That's it.

Are you.

What do you mean?

That was a lame follow up. So wait, are you. So are you? Are you? Are you. Verses first or choruses first?

It depends. It changes, you know? Yeah, it changes.

So when. So tell me. Tell me about Almost about the Beyonce song when you hear it, and she's, like, named you in this big remix in her big roll call of, like, the greatest women artists in the last hundred years. What does that feel like?

I mean, it felt really good just because. To know that anybody was thinking of me in that context, because I know that I am in the context of. I know I'm not like, oh, yeah, I know I'm Nina Simone and Grace Jones. Like, I'm definitely not thinking of myself like that. But I know historically what I've done is relevant, and I know that I have pioneered and open doors for the way that people think about what's possible for themselves as artists, as black artists, as black female artists, as female artists. I know that I've changed some things, and it's nice for somebody to say, I see you. I see what you're doing, because it doesn't actually get said a lot, whether I know it or not. So it was nice to have somebody say it. But really, even more importantly, in a song like that, where she's referencing Vogue, which lists all white Hollywood stars, it was amazing for her to then flip it and mention all these black women who, like, I said, some of whom never got their recognition or their accolades. Like, I don't think Rosetta Tharpe or Bessie Smith or, you know, some of these other people. I guarantee you, a lot of people were like, who's that? You know? And I think it was important to use her platform in that way. So I thought that was great.

I mean, I was thrilled to hear you. You are the first contemporary artist she mentions, and it just seemed really exciting. Like, I mean, I remember where I was when I was listening to you, and I was like, wait a minute. What did she just say, Santi?

Like, what?

Oh, my God.

It's, like, so fucking cool. Yeah. I mean, I think that other people might have been, like, more excited about, like, oh, my God, Beyonce just mentioned my name. You know what I mean? Like, I. It's not like. I mean, I know Beyonce. I don't. You know, I'm not saying I. Like, she's my best buddy, but, like, I've known Beyonce for a while, and. And Beyonce's been a supporter of me, and she's come to my shows, and she's like, you know, I know that I'm on her radar, and I've been on her radar. So I wasn't like, I don't know. It resonated with me for the reasons that I said, you know, I mean.

Like, what you're saying that makes sense. You have gotten a lot of critic. And when I think about, like, heads, people who really care about music are like, of course, Santi. Right. But it's never been the masses. It's never been the huge commercial thing, which was never what you set out to be. So to get a recognition like that just reminds people, like, people who know music are, like, thinking about her.

Well, see, that's the thing. I just hope that for some reason, our culture needs, like, the most pop people to say things for it to be fact. That's so strange. But that's how it is. So I'm like, cool. Well, maybe now that she said it, somebody will act like it's the truth. You know, that's where I'm at. I'm not like. I mean, is her saying my name gonna help me make my career more sustainable? I don't know. You know? But, like, maybe somebody would be like, well, actually, that's. That's true. Cause Beyonce said it, you know?

What does. The COVID image.

The COVID image. I think I picked it for the COVID because it summed up the whole idea. It looked like somebody was transcending or ascending in a moment. It looked like somebody was moving through dualities and multi dimensions in a moment. It looked like somebody was many things at once. And I think that's what my album is about. So that's why I chose those pictures.

Or that picture about being many things at once. Okay. You're really great at adding the visual element to each product and a very unique visual statement with each project. And not everybody can do that. Most people can't do that.

Yeah, it's. It's a lot of pressure sometimes, but I actually really like it. The pressure comes with how much it costs to do it. It's hard. And that's what I'm telling you. Like, the things that people expect now and the actual means to do it is so challenging. So for me to come up with those visuals that I put out, I came up with so many video ideas that cost so much money. And everybody kept saying, yeah, no, no. I'm like, but this. I dumbed it down so much. No, I mean, I literally had to make it the smallest version of the idea, which actually is. It's a skill, but I don't really normally have that skill. So it was really hard for me to keep at it until the ideas got small enough. And then. Then I was like, this is actually great. Like, I actually don't even have to do whole videos. I can do little Video vignettes. Because first of all, people's attention spans aren't that long. But second of all, if I'm talking about jumping from dimension to dimension, right? And each of these songs almost being a dimension of their own, isn't it a great idea for you to just be in it just quick enough to feel what it's like there and then be tossed to the next one, you know, so that they're just these moments. It's just a feeling that the videos are communicating. So it's breaking out of the. The regulated record company version of where your song has to be 3 minutes, 30 seconds to go on radio, and the video has to be the same. Like, no rules here. It's like, I want people to watch this until they feel it, and then they can go.

I love that. I mean, you know, I could talk to you all day, you know, So, I mean, I'm like, this is so always awesome talking to you. You know, One of the things about you that I love, that I admire you, like, hold on to friends. The last time I saw you, you're with your friend from first grade, right? And, like, that's, like, constantly, like. Like. Like, once you become Santi's friend, like, it's. It's locked in. And, like, yeah, this is my friend from fifth grade. This is my friend from college. This is my friend from first grade, from kindergarten. Whatever. Like, prom, whatever. Like. Like, it's. It's. That's. That's amazing. That's a skill.

Well, I think, you know, what it comes down to is, like, when you find. I think that spirits find each other, first of all. And, you know, I've always been. Well, I used to be really social, but I'm always meeting a lot of people. And so there's a lot of people that you meet. You're not gonna be friends with all those people. But I do believe the spirits actually find tribe, right? So, like, the people that come to you sometimes are meant to be with you here on this whole journey. And so if you're as. Even as you evolve, because people evolve at different. When you meet somebody in first grade, obviously you're not the same person you are, you know, 40 years later or whatever. But sometimes these spirits stay because you evolve together and you're teaching each other, you're supporting each other. And I think that's what I really believe. Like, when you find members of your tribe, you keep those people close because we need those people through this journey. And then you got to really know who's not in that tribe that's around you because when, when you got the wrong people around you, it's a disaster, you know? So you, if you know where to draw the lines, then like you, you need those good ones around you.

That's our show. Thanks for listening. Torre's show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. And maybe this show can help. You can find me on Twitter ore and on Instagram, orayshow. Torre Show's written by me, Torre and produced by Jennifer Brown. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our photographers are Chuck Marcus and Shanta Covington and Nick Carbon. Our booker is Claudia Jean. And we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back on Wednesday with more amazing guests because the man can't shut us down.