Santigold is here!

Foreign.

Hello and welcome to another edition of Turned out of Podcast Punk. I'm your host Damian Abraham and once again I'm bringing you a conversation with someone who grew up listening to punk, may or may not still be involved with punk, but had the life changed by the genre in a major way. And today on the show, huge guests, someone I'm a big fan of, formerly of the group Stiffed way back when, but more famous of course, for her incredible solo career. Santi Gold is on the show today and this is a fantastic conversation. I'm really excited for you to hear it. More on that in one second. But first, if you want to get in touch with me, head over to the email address Turned Out a punk podcast@gmail.com that is run by my brother and show producer and guest booker extraordinaire Tristan Abraham. And he will get the message to me. You can find me on Twitter or Instagram @Left4Damien. If you want to support the show, support the show by telling all your friends about it. Let them all, letting them all know. We have this podcast and it's got like close to 500 episodes and blah, blah, like just tell them about it or you can subscribe to it or rate it on your platform of choice.

Or.

That'S the best way.

That's the best way to do it right now. Currently in the current situation, I also played a band. We are called up. We will be going on tour for our brand new album One Day on Merge Records. We're heading to the UK next week. So if you're in the uk, check your local tour dates. And when I say the uk, I don't think we're doing Northern Ireland, but I think we're doing everywhere else in the uk. Not the Isle of Way, but we're doing it. We're doing a bunch of stuff in the UK. Check your local listings or head over to FuckedUp CC and that's our webpage and you can find out tour dates and stuff because we're also going to the east coast in the United States and more stuff getting announced. It's going to be a busy summer for the tour thing, but so we're not gonna let you down over here. I turn into punk. Don't worry. It's like a symbiotic relationship. So head over to Fucked Up Dot CC to find out more in fo about the tour. All right, on to today's show. As I said off the top, a music legend on the show today, Santi Gold is here. Santi Gold of course has released incredible records going back to 2008. Before that she have played in the band Stiff. Incredible punk super group which has connections to Philadelphia DIY hardcore band Reveal to Philadelphia hardcore legends MC Rad with Chuck Treece. And anyway, we talk about it in.

This episode a little bit.

Anyway, Santi Gold has a brand new record that's fantastic called Spirituals. You can hear it anywhere and everywhere. Now this is, this is an artist I'm a huge fan of. So I'm really excited for you hear this conversation. I don't think there's anything more for me to babble on about. Check out Santigold.com for more information and fan club info whatnot. But before you run off and listen, I want to tell you something else I'm very excited about and that is the fact that Cream magazine is back. That's right. America's only rock and roll magazine is back. And I'm not just saying back in some website thing. I mean back in physical form. 128 gorgeous pages. This thing, this is like more like a book than, than just a magazine. But it is, it is, it is here, you know, in the same sort of spirit as the original. Incredible contributions from unbelievable photographers and writers and people just that just love music. This is a truly a music lovers magazine. If you like this podcast, you are going to love this magazine. They've got a brand new issue that just came out in February, the end of February. They were going to be putting out, as I say, four times a year. And you my friends, because you are listeners of turned out a punk should head over to cream with, with two E's for the people that, that don't know.com and check out not just the website, see what they have there. But they have made an offer to our listeners where you can get a discount of 15% off by using the promo code. Turned out a punk. And I know people make fun of my Canadian accent, so that is out a punk. And subscribe to this thing or join their fan club which gives you access to this unbelievable archive of just every issue they've ever done. And also gives you digital magazine as well. But you know, we're physical format people so you probably want to subscribe to the physical one and this gives you a discount on that as well As I say this thing is back and I'm very excited, you know, like there's. We live in a world with dwindling places to go for, for this kind of, you know, deep dive music research stuff. And yeah, I know I'm very happy they're back, and I'm very happy that they sponsored this podcast. Them believing in this thing is really cool because, you know, my. My Lauren, my wife's uncle, was an editor for Cream magazine in the UK for a while. And. And I, you know, back in the day, and, you know, I've read this thing, Lester Bangs were wrote, like, came with the first published usage of the word punk way back in, like, the late 60s. So, you know, this is.

This.

This thing's got a deep connection to this podcast. Anyway, check out cream.com subscribe to this Thing and celebrate magazines, and that's it. Sit back, relax, and enjoy. Santi Gold on Turned out a Punk.

Santi, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Hey, thanks for having me on the show.

Well, as I was just telling you off air, you're someone I've wanted to talk to for, well, literally years at this point, because, you know, knowing where you've taken your career and you've gone, you know, and influenced music in. In such a huge way, but knowing that you came out of Philly hardcore, you're someone that I've always wanted to have this conversation with. So we're making it happen, finally.

Cool.

Well, I got to start this off, though. The way they all start off, which is, Santi, how'd you get in a punk? Do you remember the first time you ever came across it?

Yeah, I can't tell you. I never remember things, like, so concretely, usually when they're so big. You know what I mean? It was definitely, like, little bits here and there. But I'll tell you, the main thing that I remember is, is obviously my sister's music collection, because she was older than me, right? And that's why I learned about everything. So that's got to be one of the main places that I learned about punk, particularly about Bad Brains. Well, even before Bad Brain, she would be playing weird stuff in her room, like Suicidal Tendencies, right? And. And, you know, my sister listened to everything. It wasn't just punk. It was everything. But. But it would be like, mom, I just wanted a Pepsi, you know? And I was like, I can relate to that. I'm like eight, you know, I was like, I just wanted a Pepsi. And then it'd be like, you're the one that's crazy. It's a digitalized. And I was like, this is so fun, you know, as a little kid who doesn't want to hear music, people screaming at each other, you know? So then she started going to shows she must have been 15 by then, and I was 12. And she would go through Bad Brains and, you know, and Fishbone and stuff. I mean, because we were excited because these are black people doing this stuff. And also, for me, we had grown up listening to a lot of reggae in the house and stuff like that. And then here. Here comes Bad Brains talking about Rastafari and this and that. And so I didn't know all that at 12. Like, I kind of. I didn't think about it as deep, but I was just like, oh, these guys look like me. This is cool. Who are they? And so she went to the shows, and then she would come back soaking, dripping wet with her Timberlands on, you know, And I was just like, what is this? So that's kind of. It's from my sister, you know, just learning about all that stuff.

Have you ever asked her where she was hearing about this stuff? Because, like, you know, it is. Suicidal Tendencies, I guess, was getting a little bit of TV play and the Bad Brains were getting a little bit of TV play. But it certainly wasn't mainstream music. Way further from mainstream than it is now.

No, it wasn't from that. And there's, like, dead Milkmen I knew about from school because they were from. They were like, a local Philly jersey. And so I think it was like a combination of. There was some local people. She went to this magnet public school called Central, and I ended up going there for one year. But there was so many people from every single scene in the city at this school. And. And they were cool. Like, there were some really cool people there that knew all. You know, they knew everything that was going on in the city. And I'm sure that had a huge part of her being exposed to some of the stuff. But also, back then, your cool status fell very neatly into what music you were listening to and what music you knew about. So if you were cool, you better know about Bauhaus, you better know about, you know, Fun Boy three. And you better know about. I mean, even, like, you know, back then. Let me think. I mean, all the rap stuff that was coming out, like, there was so much good music. I even. I remember also one of the earliest punk bands I heard was Beastie Boys when I was in sixth grade at school, somebody was playing Cookie Puss. No. I was like, what's this? You know, so it just. I think if you're into music and, like, don't put a limit on, like, oh, I only like this kind of music, and you're kind of open to what's going on, then you find it. And if it just resonates with you, no matter what kind of music it is, you're like, this is exciting.

It's amazing how much kind of musical innovation was coming out of Philadelphia too, in the early 80s, like schooly D with. With rap music. At the same time, you've got like. Like Dead Milkman and MC Rad and why Die and there's just sort of this. And it's really. Well, I guess because, you know, New York is such a much larger media market, but it's really under documented, I find.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that much. I mean, I've never been one to read a whole bunch about punk other than a couple of really cool books that have come out, you know, that go and talk to all those people, kind of the oral histories. But for me, much of what I know is through people like Chuck Trees, who are like these living legends who I just learned from. Like, even recently. I was just thinking about. Well, well, to quickly comment on what you said about people like Schooly D coming out of Philadelphia. I mean, there was such a correlation to me being someone who was exposed earlier on to like, every kind of black music and then growing up. And as. As hip hop was growing up, you know, from the beginning, from. It sounds like jam on it. I was on it, you know. So when people like Schooly D came out, I mean, there's nothing more punk than Schooly D. You know, that energy is. Is very much the same energy as punk rock. And so I think that's why it was very easy for me to relate and go back and forth between hip hop and punk rock, because it's really. It was just as raw, it was just as like aggressive and angstful. And it had all the same components. It was just different players at the time. But so then there's people like Chuck Trees. I didn't meet Chuck Trees until later. I met Chuck Trees at my prom.

Really.

I had. I was in charge of music and I invited this DJ that I knew from the city, and Chuck and him were really good friends. So he tagged along and Chuck was like, Damn, she's only 17 friends with Chuck after that. And then, I mean, led to years of musical collaboration. And he just. He introduced me to so many people and taught me about people. He. I mean, when I started my band, I was coming from doing songwriting and working in labels and had. I was not coming from the. Just the. The world. I hadn't even lived in Philadelphia in A long time at that point. And I moved back after having written this record for this artist named Reese on mca. Like, I worked in labels and I was coming from somewhere else, but then I wanted to. I had this music that was more rock based in my head, and I wanted to hear it the way that I heard it in my head. So I moved back to Philly with this idea of starting a band. And I told Chuck, though, I said, I just want to only make records. I never want to perform live. And he basically laughed. It was like, and you want to make funk? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, okay, Santi, let's just record first. So basically, I learned how to sing doing this band, you know, how to really use my voice. And we did the first show, and I literally had my head down the whole time and was, like, messing around with this effects machine, so you couldn't really hear my voice on stage. It's just a little. A little pedal. And then it was all my friends in this little bar. And I seriously had the best time ever, though. And from then on, I was like. He's like, see, it's fun. And I was like, oh, my God. So then we started this night called the Clap at this place called the Fire in Philly. And I actually partnered with the Roots manager at the time who also gave me this book. And he was like, learn all these bands, you know, because he. Rich Nichols, was an amazing person. He was in all kinds of music. He was such a visionary. And he actually signed my. My punk band to this label that they had for a minute. He was one of the first people who supported my punk band and had me coming into the studio at Larry Golds in Philly to record. And everybody in Philly was doing neo soul and looking at me like, what are you doing? Except for Rich. He was like, this is dope. You know, we had all kinds of bands come through, and then we would play. And I literally. That's where I learned how to sing. That's where I learned how to perform form. Yeah.

I think, like, if. If you had started now or Stiff had come out last few years, I think it would be a different story. I just don't think the world was ready for it. But, like, I was listening to it today, and it.

It's.

It's awesome how much it still still holds up.

Yeah, some of the songs.

I think the early 2000 is a different time.

Yeah. I mean, you know, you could see, I think, in that. That I was such a melodic thinker. Too. And I really liked the punk that was more melodic. I even liked the Descendants, you know, and, like, some of this stuff is just. You could. You could hear the melody. That's why I loved HR So much. HR Is one of my biggest influences because of the way he uses voice like an instrument. When people ask me, what are my vocal influences, I say HR And Nina Simone. And you couldn't get, you know, two broader, different styles. But they were so similar. They both had these really raw vocals. They did such unexpected things with their voices. And, I mean, HR could just switch from voice to voice to voice in, like, within one song. And that really was inspirational to me, like, how you can just use your voice, like all these different instruments within one song.

Yeah. I think that's why there's such a hard band to cover, the Bad Rants, and why there's just so many bands that just do these terrible versions of different songs. Because that vocal is impossible. Like, you're saying it's like, a true instrument and, like, a mastery of it.

It's my favorite band to cover. And I'm not saying. I'm not trying to claim anything, but I find it, like, the most challenging and fun thing ever. And I remember when there was these shows. There was these, like. There were used to be these Bad Brains cover shows in New York at the Delancey Afro Punk, when they were just starting out, would do them. And I just, you know, I didn't really know what that whole scene was at first, but that was like, what Bad Brains come show. Okay. And I remember I did Right Brigade and, oh, it was so amazing. But I lost my voice for the first time after I stepped off stage because I went so hard. When he's like, right, you know, Yeah, I did it. And then I walked off and I didn't have a voice. And I was. It had never happened before. I had many, many years of always losing my voice after that on tour and everything. But I remember being like. Like, my voice doesn't work, you know, and just like, just the fact that people could. Could use their voices like that over and over every night and just have such control and command.

When you watch footage of him, too, and, like, you add on top of that that he's doing all that stuff live with it. But also backflip.

Yeah.

It's like, how can any vocalist hope to compete where there's a Someone literally doing backflips while doing vocal backflips.

No. Yeah, you're right. Nobody's ever compete. It's like Trying to compete with Prince.

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's. And that's the thing about that band is they just, you know, continue to be this sort of influence because no one's ever going to really be able to catch up.

Well, and also, whether they catch up or not, it's the idea of doing something that was so novel in the moment that it arrived. You know, it was the blueprint. And not just for any black musician, but for, like, hardcore. Like, I remember talking to Daryl about it and him being like, oh, you know, it was just gospel. You just fed up the drums. I was like, what?

Well, like, when Daryl was on the show, I found, like, just sort of the. The sense of place that he has for the Bad Brains, like, very humble, but at the same time just sort of like this sort of understanding that the Bad Brains serve this sort of greater purpose. And like, you know, ultimately the Bad Rains got terrible record deals and had sort of this terrible run throughout the music industry. But he was saying, like, that for me, was kind of necessary to get our message out there. And, like, the idea is, like, it was bigger than trying to build a scene for us. It was like trying to. Trying to be out there as much as possible and trying to just, you know, change music.

Well, see, that's the thing about. About punk, I think, not just even as a music, but as a, like, belief system, you know. And, yeah, I know there's so many different belief systems within punk, but just in general, we're just talking about what is punk. And it's just like the courage to go against the system, to go against what exists and to really follow what you believe in. Right. And I think that that is the most important thing to take out of being a musician and actually standing for what you. What you are standing for what you believe in and being what you believe in, you know, And I think that that is such a missing value these days in music. And so many punk musicians never really made that made it to that much success. And if you look at where they are now in life, they just live regular lives. And it was because that's not what it was about to them. And, you know, it kind of sucks that our country doesn't value people who change music and therefore change the world forever. You know, I've been talking about a lot lately because we're in a really horrible place for a lot of musicians. And I just think that, you know, it sucks that values don't align with people who actually are doing the right thing.

Yeah, you're right. Like there's sort of this, you know, like back to what you're saying about Schooly D having this sort of like punk attitude. If you're looking at the way that at a time he was making this music, no one was making music that hardcore in, in rap music at that point.

And like they were calling it gangster rap.

Yeah. And he's self releasing, you know, and like you believe in what you do and you get it out there and then, you know, and if it's true, the world's going to catch up. Like not maybe not to be able to copy you, but at least to get what you were trying to do. Like, I think it's. It's amazing now that all this information is out there that people are able to kind of pick up on these great stories because like you're saying these people didn't necessarily do it for the fame. They did it just because, like, it was like almost like a religious servitude to this genre of music.

Yeah, I mean, I think that many artists, we do music because we don't have a choice. You know what I mean? It's like it's a need to fulfill something deep in your spirit that you just have to do it. And it's like at this point, whether you choose to make a career at it or not, you make music, you know, because. Because that's what it's for. And I think back then I think it was easier to make a living in general. Not just. Not from music, but in general. And so people could afford to do music because they loved music and maybe have a little job on the side or whatever. But it's just gotten so hard to make a living in general for everyone that I feel like we're losing so many of the artists who actually would be thinkers and would be geniuses because they're like, I need to make a living. So they're either not doing music for real or they're doing really commercial music because they don't feel like they have a choice, you know, and inside being like, I wish I didn't have to make music like this, you know.

Well, yeah, I think you're right because the intention you're going in with it is like everything you have to do now has to be done. Like, is this in service of a greater career? Because, you know, like, you used to be able to buy a house for like $50,000.

My mom about it. Yeah, a big house for $60,000, like.

To raise a family in.

And like, you know, you got private schools, you got Everything, you know what I mean?

It's definitely changed the way artists don't even like locations. Like, you know, like we, I lived around the corner from like sort of the big practice space in Toronto where all sorts of music was practiced there and people did music at every level out of this place and now it's gone and it's like there's nowhere to, to set up a practice base in Toronto. It's like a very unaffordable city. Maybe not quite New York or la, but close.

Yeah, I just went to a conference at Georgetown University and it was about, it was like the, about the music ecosystem sustainability for artists, for venues and it had all kinds of people there discussing these very issues. And one of the main things that people were talking about is practice spaces. How do you create communities where musicians. Because what happens is you have all these artists who come into these cities or parts of cities and we build them up, right. So we make them cool and then all the real estate and all the rich people come in and then they buy it all up and then the artists have nowhere to go. So the artists continuously do the work to make an area livable and cool. Everybody want to be there and. And then they can't afford it. And so we're talking about the need to create communities for artists, like whether it's like, you know, obviously affordable housing, but then also affordable practice spaces and venues to play at. You know, and the thing is there's so many creative ways to go about it. You could build an affordable housing building for artists and then in the bottom you could have practice rooms. You could. But it has to be an agenda that people are on board with and that means that people need to recognize the need to support artists especially. I mean, I know Canada has lots more like government support for artists, but in the States it's just like, it's just not valued.

Yeah. And it's interesting talking to people from Sweden that have come on the show and how much, you know, and obviously Canada, we do benefit from government support on, in the arts and. But even compared to like Sweden, we don't. Because in Sweden they used to have government funded practice spaces and recording studios for young bands. And you think back to that sort of like international Swedish music explosion with like the Cardigans and Refuse and Entombed and all these bands that kind of came out of this system that provided these places for them to kind of explore themselves and just sort of when that went away, you don't see that sort of same sort of flourishing scene Anymore. And it's just. It's really easy to see how we'd all benefit from having these sorts of things.

No, we'd all benefit from having artists continue to be able to make thoughtful and progressive art. I mean, it's hugely important, especially in times right now, like right now when, you know, all the systems are falling apart and people are feeling desperate and distraught and hopeless. And music. What does music do but, like, make everything feel better or give you hope and give you inspiration and get you through hard times and. And also inspire you to change and to evolve. And we need music, but it's at the same time where. I mean, where we're at with the. The way that our values are in society. It's just like we care more about, you know, these corporations than we care about school and having music programs or art programs or even, even. I was reading an article the other day about supporting the different ways that people learn. Right? Because like, how many artists are ADD or ADHD or whatever? I mean, our brains work differently. And if you don't even build a school system that supports that, then you're also doing a disservice to all these people who think differently. And if you think different, you come up with solutions differently, you build things differently, and that's how society progresses. So I don't know. The people I know that are in a punk are usually the most interesting people that I know. And. And yet people end up kind of disenfranchised, you know, because they think differently and they don't buy into this stuff. And I think. I think it's a. It's. It's a. It's a failure in culture to recognize these. The value and these different ways of thinking and valuing the world and experience and creation.

It's interesting. You talk about that neurodivergency that exists in a lot of musicians. I found that on people that have come on the show, in particular, people that wind up being the lead singers of bands. Like, there's. You don't want to. I don't want to say there's like a pre. Chemical disposition that leads you to that job, but it just seems to find a lot of people that do struggle with ADHD or do struggle with depression or anxiety. And it's fascinating when you also then look at how that leads to addiction on the road and how many of these people wind up getting lost, like you're saying, getting alienated from society or just kind of like caught up in addiction, trying to cope with what they have going on. In their head. And it's almost like it's a system that benefits from these people's mental health, suffering, for lack of a better term, I guess. But like, it's also a system that doesn't help people cope with it.

No, it definitely doesn't. And also our culture enjoys watching the demise and watching the show. I think it's interesting because, yes, artists tend to be people who are more sensitive, right? So we feel things more. We, we have anxiety and we have stuff like that because we feel things more and, and don't necessarily know how to. We don't have the tools. Most humans don't have the tools that we need to be healthy, evolved beings. Most humans on this planet at this time. You know what I mean? Like, maybe or else. But it's hard to know how to navigate all that stuff. And then when you do this, almost like these superhuman feats of, of opening yourself up on that level of vulnerability to all these strangers and then pouring every ounce of energy you have to these roomfuls of people and then also taking back all that crazy energy that people are giving you back. That's hard to do and it's hard to sustain and it's hard to maintain. It's hard to navigate. Right. So, yeah, then you get to the drug addiction, depression, all stuff like that. And then you're right, there's no support. But also. Forget what I was going to say. I had like three more things to.

Say about what you think It'll probably come up because, like, I, you know, just kind of continue on with this, that it, it is this thing where, like, it's this incredible ride, right? Like they, that, you know, can foist you up to a place that, where you have a career. Like, I'm, I'm someone who plays music for a living and it's unbelievable. I'm. I'm truly grateful for it. But at the same time, I wonder. It's been the best thing for my family to have me kind of constantly because it's. And I heard you talk about this on a podcast too, where it's just, it's very different headspaces to be an artist, especially an artist creating and then to be a parent. Like I've got three kids and it's, it's like a hard break to put on, you know, where you're thinking very, not selfishly, but you have to internal think internally and do a lot of navel gazing to create, or at least I find I do. And then to then all of a sudden have to Throw a break on that and be like, okay, now I'm. Now I'm going to be the parent. Like, I find that has also been something I've struggled with.

It's really hard. It's really, really hard. And I've been struggling with it a lot. And also, I think as a mother, it's very different, too, because there's so many things that are placed on that role that are built into patriarchy and a sort of misogyny culture.

Absolutely.

That we don't know because we've internalized it all. So instead of being like, this isn't really fair, and this isn't what I set up to. To, you know, whatever, we're like, oh, as a mother, I'm supposed to do this and do this and do this and do this and do this. But as an artist, I'm supposed to be this. And as a career person, I'm supposed to be. This is actually impossible to balance it all. But there's no real. There's not that many conversations about the impossibility of it. There was. There was the conversation decades ago about, like, we want equal, you know, and so now everyone's like, here, take it. Take your equal, you know, and it's not equal. How can be equal? I recently read something that Zoe Saldana had. Had said, and this was from years ago, but I just came across it. I was doing research for my podcast, actually, and she had said something like, as an actress, this was a while back, but the men were getting, like, private jets and all these perks on their contracts, and they wouldn't give her extra money for the nanny. And they're like, we don't pay for nannies. And it's like, well, you need to start. I don't know if I can curse on your show.

Yeah, I play in a bank called up. You can definitely curse.

That's like, well, where. In what world does that make sense? Like, you need to pay for whatever your people need, and if you don't have enough women that you haven't come across this, you need to make a note that that's a real thing. Like, if I'm going to be away from my kids all that time, you know, I'm going to need some extra help paying for that, because it costs money. It doesn't just cost money. Is a huge sacrifice to be away from your children that much. And it's also. It's a huge sacrifice to be with your children that much, because you need space as an artist. You need space to think, to create. And to be. You need to really be able to be in yourself and figure out what you have to offer. And, yeah, being a parent just really eats up at that space. And it's a really hard thing to navigate because it's so much. And anyway, say you have three hours in a day, and you're like, oh, I can get art done in this three hours. It doesn't really work like that. It takes three hours to wind down into that place.

Sometimes, you know, well, yeah, like, or you stay up all night because you're on. You're. You're in a creative hot streak and you work on something, and then it's like, oh, school lunch. I gotta go make school lunch.

Right?

Comes. Comes quick.

And then repeat. And then repeat. It doesn't stop. You know, there's no time where you're like, okay, like, if I could only get through this one night, then I have a break. No, you don't.

No, no. And exactly. And you're right. There is a, you know, acknowledging. There's a complete double standard, you know, that exists. And as hard as it is for me, if it was my wife in my position, I could only imagine how much more demanding it would be on her than it is on me and just how much more judgment there is. Right. Like, you're judged if you take time off from your career and you're judged if you focus on your career. Like, there's this sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't, kind of like reaction from people. And you, like said earlier, people love watching the crash and burn. Now people revel in it.

Yeah. I mean, they do. There's a. There's a word for it in German. I forget.

Oh, yeah. Fr. Something. I failed German.

I like that.

Yeah.

Yeah. At least you took it. But, yeah, it's interesting. It's like, people love to watch this show. It's like we like to build people up and then we love to tear them down. You know, even, like. I don't even know if I should bring this up, but I'm just going to like, what? All the stuff that just went down with Kanye. I'm not. I'm not gonna speak on anything that Kanye said or did. Like, whatever. I don't know what the he was talking about, to be honest. Like, obviously. But my point is he's mentally ill. Clearly he's having a breakdown. Clearly. Why does he keep getting invited onto people's shows to have a platform to witness his psycho breakdown? You see what I'm saying? Like, there. There's something wrong in culture where people are taking advantage of people's illness for. For attention, for. For, you know, people to. To watch them. Like, I actually went on tour with HR early. Early in my stiff band, and I. And, you know, and he struggles with mental illness, and I. I remember watching him. It was over. I mean, I was actually with him on 911 in 2001.

Wow.

It was crazy. We were in the middle of somewhere in some desert place, and we went into Wendy's and they were like, you know, two planes just crashed into the world trade. And we were like, what? We thought they were kidding.

Yeah.

And they're like, no, no, no, we're serious. And we try to call everybody. But anyway, that's a side note. My point is, watching him over the first three days, I. I just watched him go up, up, up, like to this highest plane of. Never seen a better performance in my life. By the third night, it was like he was just right on the border of going into somewhere beyond, you know, and the next day he was waving and talking to angels. Yeah, literally. And, you know, and it was like, you witnessed the ascent. You know, people would say it was a descent into, you know, whatever the illness is, but it was actually. It looked like an ascent. And I was even reading something about how some indigenous cultures viewed, like, schizophrenics, and they viewed it as, like, them having greater insight. It's just so interesting how other cultures have respect for people's challenges, differences and value, but we just tear people apart, help them and blow up. Anyway, sorry, back to Bad Brains. But I just remember them trying to continuously book shows when he was ill. And it was such a challenge because they needed to tour, they needed to make money for their families. But he was ill, and so it was like they were torn. You know, what do you do?

Well, I've got friends too, that, like, we're very clearly suffering, but there's this sort of machine where the people around them, be it people in the band with them or booking agents, like, everyone has realities that they're trying to maintain for themselves, that there's not necessarily someone being like, yeah, we need to stop this. Like, this is not going to end well.

Well, there's the other problem of. Of the way that this system is built is that everybody eats off the artist. So they're not gonna. They're not gonna stop you, you know, and if. And then we have. I mean, even now, look, there's these artists that are massive, huge stars, and internally, they're, like, just falling apart. But maintaining this facade and social media doesn't help. You know, in fact, it really hurts. But they're just trying to keep the vision alive. But inside it's undoable. It's so much pressure, it's so much stress to continue to keep up with the rate of consumption, just in general. Like, to put out that many records and tour that much and make that much content, like, nobody can keep up with that. And it's just. It's brutal, the toll that it takes on. On people. But then at that level, you know how many people's lives you're carrying. So then you have that pressure too. I mean, it's just. It's just very. It's not healthy and it's not a good system.

Well, like you were saying, it comes at any level too, because I just. I don't think we, as this species are meant to be concerned about what other people are thinking about us. But that's what it becomes like, even if you're not worried about social media stuff, but even like, will people buy this record? Will people enjoy the art that I'm creating? Because if they don't, I won't be able to support myself in the way that I am currently doing. Or, you know, like, it just becomes like all these things you don't need to worry about. Like in basic sort of survival, finding happiness for yourself. These are not necessarily the things that we should be concerned about.

No. And it's hard because that's been the challenge of being an artist from. From the beginning. I mean, if you think about the, like, legendary classic painters having to do commission work and hating it, but even still, they had. What do you call the people?

Patrons, I guess.

Yeah, they had the patrons and they had the people who are like, you do your art, I believe in you so much that I will support your life just so you can put art into the world. That's. That's really great.

And I guess. And I guess that's what really the majority of fan bases are, you know, like, it's a small group of people that are mean or aggressive or like that, you know, nasty reviews. Like, the reality is there's a lot of people that just want to see, you know, you as an artist flourish and be able to produce art and enjoy. They enjoy your art. But it's. It's this sort of, I guess, social media kind of world where these negative thoughts and negative voices are the ones that kind of are always getting through somehow.

Well, yeah, because it's entertainment. That's what it's all about. But also the problem also now is that even though your fans do want to see you succeed, they want your art, they want to see you win. There's a lot of entitlement that goes along with it now because of the devaluation of art. And it's not necessarily the fault of the individuals, but it's the way that we consume now. So there's like an expectation that you should always have access to this stuff. It should be continuous, it should be free, it should be streamed, you don't have to pay for it. And therefore it's separate from. I want to support the artists that I love. It's like I want more from the artists I love and I want it now. When's the next record? You just put out a record three weeks ago. When's the next record? You know, and it's like it's actually. It feeds the system that's broken. Is that all of a sudden our fans don't feel like any obligation to support the artist. They can support you by saying, yeah, we love it, wins more. But like nobody has to buy anything. And so how do you. There's no other industry where you make a product and you give away for free and nobody's paying you.

Well, yeah, that's why I think it's like you were saying earlier, like when it used to be with your sister, like the cool was the music you were into because music was a capital then and now it's become like a value added thing. Like it's a, you know, it's a dance on a Netflix show that becomes a hit on Tick Tock.

Like it's fascinating and it's totally not even valued as a full piece of art. It's like something that goes in the background of something else. And I've heard, I've heard artists talk about being frustrated when they're doing a show, but they had a huge hit off TikTok and people get excited for like the 20 seconds of the song that, that's on TikTok and then they just disconnect for the horse. I don't know. I don't know if those are the kind of hands we want, you know.

Oh, I wonder if these artists have to pitch them up too when they perform these Tick Tock loops on stage live. Like if the audience is expecting the chorus to kindly go four octaves higher. So they have to like, I don't know.

But it's, it's a thing. It's a thing where music has become just sort of a background Thing or just a snippet or. And I mean, there are some kids who are still doing it, you know, the real way, where they're like, oh, I love this old band. And I love when I meet kids like that. I have so much respect for them in this age when they're still, like, into finding out about kind of not just a band, but, like, what was going on in the culture. And because there is kind of an ahistorosity now, you know, where nobody really cares about history or where things came from, where the context. Context is really important, you know?

Absolutely. And I think, like, well, back to Chuck Trees. Like, that's why to me, you know, this guy is like, forget a docu series about the Sex Pistols. Where's the Chuck Tree series where a guy who's in MC Rad winds up playing on a Billy Joel record, is in the roots and is like, in all these disparate places in culture at once.

Like, and was like, one of the first black pro skaters.

Yeah, exactly.

Another culture, you know, 100.

And, like, the context of this matters, like, because I think that's. That journey is so important. And that's why that Billy Joel record connects to, like, tiny punk shows in Philadelphia in the. In the early 80s.

Right. It's really important. I think there's a lot of untold stories that are connections like that that make things so much more interesting. And I think. I don't know, I hope that people begin to see the value in telling those types of stories. And now that it's kind of easier to make your own, it's easier to make your own documentation of stories. So maybe, maybe people will do it.

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So back to your journey. Where did you. What was the first, like, live music you ever saw?

Well, there's stuff that I saw before I remember that I know that I saw. For example, I know that I saw James Brown when I was so little that I don't remember. Whoa, I said to my dad, I said, what's wrong with his leg? And he said he got so. I love that story. So whenever you ask me what my first show, I have to say that because even though I don't remember it, it happened. I also know my dad took me to see Fela Kuti when I was 7 in Philly at TLA. And I remember that one because it was all his wives on stage with no shirts on. And I was like, whoa. At seven. I was like, what the hell is going on? But, I mean, Fela is one of my favorite artists of all time to this day. And I'm sure that has something to do with it.

That's two of the greatest performers of all time. Not to cut you off there, but like. Like, back to back, what? Like, obviously you're seven, so. But I can only imagine, like, being where Sun Ra's from. Like, what was the live. Was it like, kind of like a. Was it, like, packed? Was it, like. Where was it? Even the Phela show, the failure.

It was at tla, which is Theater of the Living Arts, which is still one of the main gigs. It's on South Street. Everybody has played at TLA. You know, it's. It's small. It's only about, like, 1200 capacity or something like that. I think it was at tla, I'm almost sure, because I think I tried to find out. But then, let's see. He also took me to my first rap concert, my dad, because I was too young to go by myself, and I went to see LL Cool J and Big Daddy Kane, I think, oh, that's awesome. I did. I didn't go to that many shows as a kid, as much as I would have liked to. I went to shows with my dad. He was more into going shows than I was on my own, I think. I went to. I went to see Fishbone. I went to see Nina Simone when the first time she played in 14 years. I went to some more. I went to rap shows. I think I was definitely into hip hop a lot in the 90s. And so I think I caught. And especially once I was a teenager, I caught loads of hip hop shows. I didn't catch that many rock shows until later.

Who are some of the Philadelphia rap artists in, like, kind of the early mid-90s? Like, where are some of the bigger names? Like Pre Roots, I guess, obviously, and Pre Roots.

All I remember is this band called tough crew in 1988, and it was. They had this song called Danger Zone, and it was so good. It was like, ding and no, this one. This song is called My Part of Town. Danger Zone was a different song. It went so damn tough. And it's like, rock on eggnog song. Bring your posse along to the party. No, it is Danger, Danger Zone and the haunt is in effect. So I say, buddy, study, think and learn. Did the move we made stunning those that just can't behave. And that's. It was like so good. And I remember the lyrics might be all wrong because that's like from me being 13, but that was really good. Oh, and then we had Cool C, who only lasted for, I think some. I think he robbed a bank or something. And that was it. Maybe it was like the song was like, oh, you got it. The glamorous life. And it was like this big thing because they're Philly, everybody would go, there was like. There was some Philly rappers. None of them. Well, obviously we had Jazzy Jeff, Fresh Prince, but yeah, I mean, there was a lot of film rappers, but not like New York, you know, nothing like that.

Did you grow up with Sun Raw Records in the house at all? Was your. Were your parents into them?

My dad might have had a Sun Raw record, but I think Sunra was a little more out there. My dad was more into like Pharaoh Sanders and Leon Thomas and all the. All the Coltrane and Davis and McCoy Tyner and all those stuff. He was into sort of bebop a lot and then he was into African music. He was in reggae, but he wasn't listening to anything that was. He wasn't really that experimental in his taste when it came to stuff like that.

You know, it's wild when you find those Saturn records and you look at these stamped labels and the fact that they were like, you know, self release and self pressed in some ways. And it's just, you know, like punk gets a lot of credit for diy, but like, you know, you look at Sun Run, here's someone who, as you're saying, had no commercial viability in the music that he's making at this point, but, like, yet is putting it out himself. Because there's like a bigger thing than commercial success.

And that's the thing. And it's like we don't realize how important it is to do that stuff and to continue to do it. And it's so easy to lose faith at that point when you're just doing stuff yourself. Like, you know, imagine I always think of, was it Van Gogh who never sold a painting his whole life, right? I mean, imagine what that Feels like in the. In the time to know that you. I mean, you gotta know that you're onto something so big and so special in your. Deep down, you don't really know what's gonna happen, but you're like, this is amazing, you know, and nobody's there yet. That's the thing for artists. We get places before everybody else, and that's a really, really hard space to live in. Because they said first is never first. Like, second's always first. Or even maybe later, because you're, like, pioneering, chopping all the weeds and doing all the work, and then somebody comes behind you and they're like, come this way, everybody. And then they just run through the stuff that you just did, you know? And I think that's part of the depression for people. It's so hard to. To stay that path, especially when making a living becomes so hard.

Well, it's like you were saying earlier, like. Like, now a meltdown is worth as much as, like, a work. Like, you know, a record you spend a year and a half working on, from writing to, like, finish mastering and everything. That's worth as much as if you had a nervous breakdown in terms of, like, the content that you can produce for ultimately monetizing, you know, or like, the fact is that, you know, someone could make a glib tweet that goes viral and that ultimately is worth more than this record, you know, that you spent a, you know, a year and a half on. I could only imagine spending a lifetime on a career and having no acknowledgment and just no one would do that now.

Totally. And that's the thing. And it's like, look how important it is. Look how important it was to the future of the world. And it's like, if we can't figure that out and figure out how to allow artists to be able to do stuff. Like, I mean, artists, even scientists, I mean, that's an artist, it's a creator, you know, people to have this space and time to think. And that's the problem with all this technology. We're using it wrong. You know, it's not meant to be all consuming like this. It's meant to be used to, like, help progress. And we're in this place because it's. It's so monetized right now, you know, but if you're constantly looking at your phone and your phone's constantly, like, beeping, you know, you're not here. You're not here. What you, you know, you don't have this. When do you think like, when do you just sit and think? When do you, like, wow, wouldn't it be interesting if this worked like this? And we could change the way that we even think about this or do this or, or I've been thinking about myself in this way and maybe I could do something that would help me get to, you know, there has to be time for thought. And if we fill it all up and we don't really progress and that's kind of where we're at, really. Not that we're not progressing, but we're not in a great place.

You know, like with my kids too, like, you know, we, we. You turn off the screens and they're like, I'm bored. And it's like, well.

So addictive. It's so within. Like you let them use it for one day, the next day they wake up, they're like, turn it.

Oh yeah. And it's, and it's like, but boredom is where some of the best things came out of. Like, if I wasn't bored, there's no way I would have wound up singing in a band. Like, if I wasn't bored, I wouldn't have done a zine. Like, being bored is kind of like, like we need that. Like you're saying we need that space to kind of like get to the next stage.

Exactly. It's so important and also what it does to a brain to constantly just be jumping from one thing to the next thing and looking through. I mean, I have twin 4 year olds who are almost 5. But like my son, he really, like, he gets so addicted to the, to the phone and iPad so quickly. The little one that you turn around for two seconds, your phone is gone and he's hiding behind a door somewhere playing Subway Surfers, you know, and you're like, how do you even know, like, how do you know how to do all the stuff on the phone? Dangerous.

Well, but it's like, it's almost like, you know, I'm not saying it is by design, but it is, I guess ultimately by design. Like you don't have to read anymore, like with computers. So you just have to read and be able to type and things like that. Now it's all tactile and it's all like touch interface. So it's designed for younger people to use it and you can start using it as you're saying like three years old, you can figure out how to get on that thing.

Thing better than, better than us. Like, swipe this way, do this. And I'm like, how do you know where the X is you. You've got it all figured out. He figures out the code before he knows numbers. Do you know what I mean? He's just like, go this way. I saw you move this way. Got it.

Yeah, exactly. And like, I know it's funny though because I started trying to make YouTube shorts and things like that and I had no idea because I don't necessarily watch them. So I brought my like 10 year old and I'm like, okay, I know this content wise isn't what you'd watch, but does this look like something you would?

I mean the 8 to 10 year olds need to be the managers because they know everything. When we had, during the lockdown time where everybody was doing homeschool and everything, my son at that time was like six and the moms were like texting. How do you do this to get the. I can't figure it out. I would ask my 6 year old and he'd like, tell them to do this, this and this. And I'd be like, radix says do this. Like, thank you. Like he knew how to do stuff I'd never heard of.

Yeah, no, my 13 year old, now it's, it's wild. Like there's no, you know, and it's so different because like, you know, at a different point, like you just would put the things on the higher shelf so the kid couldn't reach them. But now there's no shelf high enough. Like my 13 year old knows more about computers. Anything I could put in to prevent him from getting on to. Oh, they just don't do it. Yeah, there's no yeah, like what's the point? Like, but, and then it's, you know, like I was reading Manufacturing Consent and it's like amazing how outdated that book is because now it's like stand in line for 48 hours to give away your consent or to, to pay them to take your consent from you. Like they don't have to manufacture it anymore. We just, through the use of these phones, like we're paying them for the ability to advertise to us, right?

And, and we don't even know and nobody even cares like that. The new technology where you could make your face into all these different things and then, but you don't know that then you're giving them the right to use your face, create other faces and then people can use it in their cartoon and they can use it in there, they can use it in stuff and there's no regulation of it.

Yeah, yeah, no. And it's like the idea of like at a, you know, like in a McDonald's saying to you in the 90s, like, okay, give me your fingerprints, your face scan and all your passwords. But yet I've given all that to Apple very willingly.

And then they can sell it. They can sell it without you even knowing.

And then, and then use that information to market my own image back to me through some way.

I know I was, I was at my, my son's school because we were like applying for the next year for the twins to go there. And so they, the parent, the kids are having playdate, so they just hijacked the parents and just, I don't know, had us doing nothing but good stuff. So they're like, oh, here's a video. What do you think of when you think about today? And they're like, well, here's today. And I'm like, what are they about to show us? They show us this video that had McDonald's places that robots cook. Everything. This is real. There's McDonald's where the robots are in the back cooking. Then they had trucks, the big freight trucks that drive themselves on the highway. And they had obviously the 3D printed houses and they had this. They had the cars driving themselves and they had. I mean, it was basically a world where humans weren't really needed or involved at all. And they're like, this is today. So what do you, what do you, what do you imagine, what you think 20 years from now will be like, right? And I was like, well, I fucking hope not like that. Like, I hope we pull it back. We got to pull it back and have it where it's more balanced, where, like, humans actually play a role in the world. Because otherwise we're headed for some really fucked up shit, you know what I mean? We can't live in a world like that. So I think when I think of the kids, I read this article about these kids in Brooklyn who are trying to go tech free. I'm so inspired by this idea. And they call themselves the Luddites and it's so punk rock. Like, that is punk rock in this time. And honestly, I've been thinking about it in like a documentary because it's kind of straight edge. Do you know what I mean? Like, the idea of being like, right now in this day and age, I'm going to be tech free. And all the kids have little flip phones because their parents made them have. And they meet in the park and they sit together and they read a book together and some paint and writing a Journal. And. And we're going to need a lot more of that to straighten, to get us back on a road that makes sense. Because it can't be. I know technology is exciting and it should be, but the balance is where we are really unclear about, you know, the harm in the path that we've taken.

Yeah. Like, they remade Terminator now. Like, people would be waiting in line to give their souls over to those giant robots, and they'd be like, very happily, like, how wicked. This robot. I paid this robot $5,000 to make me work for it now. And I. I just wondered, like, how much of this stuff has been eroded away. Like, you think back to, like, how much organization you're talking about. Practice spaces were done around going to record stores, you know, or, like, how many people met in fat beats or met in like. Like Toronto Rotate this, you know, or like these different record stores which provided, like, places for people to meet or practice spaces where people would meet. Or it feels like the erosion of these physical spaces is really restricted where you can meet with people. And so it's kind of forcing people into more online stuff. It feels like.

Well, and then, I mean, when you get around the people who've grown up in this, they don't know how to interact.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's a huge problem. Like, they just. I mean, even, like, overseeing playdates with some of these kids, and they just, like, want to go off separately and. Or they'll have a play date where they both bring their iPad and sit.

And you're like, no, no, the dream play date. That's their dream play date.

No. And you gotta. I mean. Yeah, we gotta learn how to. To be. To be. I mean, I think it's gonna come back, honestly, because just like vinyl. Just like vinyl, right? It's. I mean, it may not be. It's not gonna come the main thing, but we find value in things once they're gone. Right. Once they're removed. And then somebody's like, well, that was cool. There's something really special about that experience, so maybe we could bring it back. I think that's what's going to happen. I think as he's, you know, everyone's always looking back, like, 20 years, whatever. I think they're going to start saying, wow, that was cool when you had to go somewhere. And then. And so then they'll start creating these spaces for it to be like that. And then. And then they'll get to experience things that don't exist anymore and be like, oh, actually this is better.

Yeah, and you really feel that with this younger generation of kids that do kind of, like, still draw power from, you know, DIY punk shows and this whole generation of new bands that have kind of sprung up and that.

And there's a lot of. There's a lot more diversity.

Oh, absolutely. Punk is a lot more like it pretended to be before now. Like, it really is what it pretended to be.

Yeah.

What was the first punk show you remember going to? Obviously, Dead Milkman and Fishbone. But, like, do you remember going to, like, a DIY show in Philadelphia at any point?

I didn't really go to those until I was playing them.

Yeah. What's the first one you played?

I don't know. I was talking to Chuck about it the other day. But I remember playing at the FDR Skate park and, like, performing on the table, you know, there was always. Chuck knew everything, and at that point, I didn't. I would just roll up somewhere and just be there. There was so many things like that. But I don't really have much of a memory because I was talking to my other bandmate, Chris Jar, and he's like. He remembers everything. He's like, oh, yeah, you remember when we played this and we played at the, you know, this surf festival and we did this and we went and. I don't remember. It was just such a blur for me. I don't know why it was a blur at that period. I think it might have been a blur because of what came after it, of course.

Yeah.

You know, all of a sudden it was like shows and shows and shows and everybody just. I don't remember the details so much, but I'm trying to remember. I know that. I mean, there was a lot of just grimy. Grimy bathrooms.

Was. You ever play the Stalag?

I don't think so. Is that in Philly?

It's in West Philadelphia. It was like three warehouses that were kind of in a row or, like warehousey type spaces. And I remember going there and someone had taken a shit beside the toilet.

Oh, nice. I don't think I could have done that one. I don't think I could have gone in there, but. But, yeah, I remember playing once. You know, Stiff got going a little bit. We played at CBGBs, which was really, really special for me. And. And it was packed. I really felt really special because that at that point, the press had started coming out. People were like, what is this? I remember we went in there, We. We rocked that show so good. And I'm so sad that we. I Lost all the footage. We used to record every single show.

Oh, wow.

And in the beginning. The beginning, we weren't so good. And then by the end, we kill. We walk in like gunslingers with, you know, just go in and be like. And we walk out, like. Yeah. You know, we feel so good about it. I don't have the footage somebody has. Back then, you used to have to give your footage to people that were doing your website. And one day everyone's like, I don't have it. I don't have it.

Well, it's funny too, because, like, when people had these VHS tapes and their physical zines, it felt like stuff wasn't lost in the same way it is with this digital stuff where someone loses a hard drive. It's all gone.

No, it's all gone. But I definitely lost a whole box of physical VHS and a little. It was all tapes and they all got. It was a whole thing of them, and they all got lost.

Okay. I guess throw my point out the window then. You're right. It doesn't matter. You don't get lost.

Yeah, I'm trying to think where else. I mean, it was just a whole bunch of, like, you know, back then. That was the cool thing too. Just. It definitely wasn't about the money because you're literally splitting the 300 from the door. 300 being good, you know, splitting it. Here, guys, here's your $20 from playing the shows. And bad sound. You don't care. There's no. There's no sound checks. You roll in and you just make it work. And then I just really found my footing as a performer and in those shows because it was just about energy. It was all about energy and just being able to. To have that type of release that you only can do in punk rock music. I think that energy and the speed and the. For me, growing up, like, literally I studied HR tapes, you know, just like, whoa, like, what is he doing? And there was no part of me that was going to be trying to do, like, flips or jumping off the stage and stuff like that. I think that goes down very different for women. I've had. I mean, even later in my career, I've had women get, like, assaulted sexually as they're. Yeah. And stuff like that, which is insane. But. But just the idea of just being able to move any way you feel with no thought about it. It's like. It's like being in the clouds almost, performing that type of music. It's just like. It's like almost like being bodyless. In a way, you know, to be able to just be the energy. To just be the energy. And then in Santi Gold, it's so different. It's so choreographed. It's so. I've got so many things going at the same time. There's tracks and there's live and there's this, and there's no room for just going off the grid in that way. Do you know?

Yeah, absolutely. And I've talked about this with someone recently, a friend of mine, that there's no genre that says free as. As punk. I was talking to a friend of mine who's. Who's a rapper and a wrestler, pro wrestler, mvp. And he. I was just saying, like, this is going to be different than any other type of expression you've done. Because, like, you're saying you don't have to be on the beat necessarily, even. You don't have to worry about these other things. You have to worry about in every other genre. You can just be the energy. Like, that's the best way to put it, because that's. That's your instrument, ultimately.

Yeah. And then. And then it's just so raw because in the crowd's life in it with you.

Yeah.

Like, the way that they feed off that energy, I mean, that. That's consistent across performing, but depending how hype everybody gets is different, you know?

Absolutely. Like, I think it's. I've never been able to play jazz music, but I imagine it's like improv, improvisational jazz, or like, you know, where you're just feeding off that crowd. Or pro wrestling, too, where you're also feeding off that crowd.

Right.

How did you get involved with, like, the, you know, working at major labels and doing the songwriting side of things first.

Not to diss my parents, but they were pretty discouraging when I sang for them. Consider songwriting. Oh, no.

Mine said the same thing to me, and I can't sing anywhere close to you, so I feel very bad for you on that one.

I mean. But I actually. I never. I'm kind of kidding, but I'm not. I never wanted to be a performer. That was never my main incentive. The only reason I ended up being a performer is because I am an artist, and I wanted to. I wanted to make what I heard in my head, and I knew that in order to do that, I had to do it. So that's really what pushed me out in front of people. I have so much. Like, I don't anymore, but I. As a child, I had so much anxiety about performing or singing in front of anyone. So I was not that type of child. So I thought that I wanted to own a record company. That's what I thought. And I always, I always wrote lyrics. I always wrote poems and lyrics. I wrote rap lyrics and, and poems mostly. And then I didn't write songs because I didn't really play anything. And I didn't think I could write anything without playing anything. And then I got some production equipment when I was about 15, like a SP 1200, you know, the old beat machine drum. I had like an ASR 10. And I just started messing around with that and just realized, okay, well, you got a keyboard, you got some drums, that's playing something. So I mean, I took guitar, I suck at instruments. I was a music major in college and I, I took hand drums as my major. So I studied traditional Haitian rhythms and West African and a little bit of Cuban. And that was actually really influential to the way that I approach rhythm and syncopation and stuff like that. I just, I hear, I hear like layers of rhythm and that's how I write too. So. Influence my approach to melody. But so, so I started working in a record company. I had an internship and then I got another internship. And then I ended up getting a full time job summer after my junior year and I commuted back to Wesleyan from New York for a semester. And then I graduated early. So I ended up working at Sony as executive assistant. Then I was a R assistant. And then I signed an artist to an 8 to a demo deal. And I was trying to make this different kind of black artists. I was in the black music department back then. Right? That's what it was called. And it was very like, unless you make R and B or hip hop, which is exactly the same as now, then you're not black music. And so I was trying to make something different. And I ended up finding. I ended up writing the songs myself because I couldn't, I tried a bunch of different songwriters and I couldn't get it to sound like what I wanted. So I, I wrote the songs myself for her demo and I took him back to the label, the head of the label. And he was like, I don't know if she's good. Maybe she could be in this R and B group that we have. And I was like, no, that's totally not the point. So I left and I was like, I'm going to finish making this record. And I got her a deal with another label and I brought on Doc McKinney who I met. He had just done this record for A for a woman named Esthero. They're Canadian.

Yeah, I remember.

And he was so progressive in his thinking about music, but he came from punk rock, too.

Wow.

He was in punk bands. He. I mean, so he knew all the rap and he knew all this. And he knew all this new sort of futuristic sound stuff, but he was a punk rocker. So me and him aligned on references sounds because I'm such a, like, particular sound snot when it comes to guitars and dead drums and stuff like that. And he knew all my references. I'm like, you know, like Devo like this. And he's like, yeah, okay, okay. And so we worked together on that record and it was. It was a struggle because it was all of our kind of. It was my first project, her the Artist first project. And it was one of Doc's early projects. And the compromise was hard because it was definitely more soul than I wanted to be, but it still had all these rock influences. And so that was that. And then after doing that, I sort of was discouraged because I was like, well, that's not exactly how I wanted the record to sound. I'm going to go and make a record that sounds like I want it to sound. And that's when I moved to Philly and hooked up with Chuck and then started singing from there.

It's interesting because we were talking earlier about how the change in music that's kind of come from, like, lots of practice spaces and things like that. And obviously that's not your motivation from the Santa Gold. Santo Gold project versus. Sorry, sorry about that. I apologize. Santo Gold project versus when you were doing Stiffed. But it's interesting how that approach to doing music, where you're taking, you know, there's collaboration involved, but you're taking a lot of it and just making it about one person as a producer, artist, like the whole thing. And it's. It's interesting how that kind of pre foretells the way a lot of music has gone, I think, including punk, too. You're singing.

So what do you mean? Again, I didn't understand, like, the idea.

Of, like, you don't necessarily need a band that would necessarily need to be in a practice space. Like, you can kind of do it in a much smaller practice space or even do it in your house and then ultimately just go in the studio to actually bring life to it. Like there's still collaboration involved, but now or then. Then, I mean, like, you're not. You're doing it for different reasons back then. But I. It seems like that's the model that a lot more artists are going to wind up doing now is trying to.

Instead of a band organically coming together and writing songs, the idea of producing it like you're the producer and you bring in different pieces to. To. To do the different work.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. And that's how. From a. From a major label perspective, which is where I was. I was at Sony, at Epic, and that's how things were done more and more. Right. Because in the beginning, even with hip hop, the band came with their producer. Every band had their own DJ slash producer, and they had their own sound. And it was right about the era that I'm talking about when like P. Diddy became, you know, this whole new thing and everybody. That's exactly when I worked at, at Epic, where everybody wanted to sign anything that Puffy did anything. Who is he down with? Puppy? That's what we want to sign. And it became the era of the producer where like, it didn't. You didn't have to come with your own sound. We'll give you the sound. You just have to have the look or the whatever, the connection, be associated with this person and we'll give you the whole Persona. So it's this manufactured music and that was the environment that I was in, but I was like, wow, well, maybe I can manufacture something really cool and different that doesn't exist. And that was my angle. And since then, yeah, it's become a whole. That's become the way of the whole world. It's like, I mean, even when you get all these huge mega boy bands or whatever that were all manufactured, which is interesting to think that the Sex Pistols was manufactured in that way. Right? I mean, it can work. It can work, but. And I mean it can work in like an organic, cool way, but often it does. Often. I mean, I'm not gonna say often it doesn't. It can work, but it's just a whole different process. And now the way I make music, especially thank God for being able to make music from different places now, because you can work with people all over the world without having to travel all over the world, which is a benefit, though it is nice to be in the room with people.

But you're also now the authentic version of that producer that you're talking about, where you're a producer artist in yourself, where you're kind of like creating your own thing. And obviously not to lump you in, but there's sort of this wave of like eight track diplo Mia, like just so this, this, this sort of like diy version of the producer artists where you don't need to necessarily need a major label backing. You can kind of like, build your own universe yourself.

Yeah, I think that is. Is really, really important for artists, specifically because of all the things that we've been talking about and how it's so hard to. It's so hard to. To be valued in the. In the other infrastructure that's all about, like, commodification of everything. And if artists, more artists can figure out how to do it themselves and actually create a sustainable structure to do that. Particularly, I think Web3 is really interesting for that because I know that the crypto world is going through massive upheaval and change right now, but that part of it isn't really the part about building community and about having direct relationships with your fans where you don't need any middlemen for anything. That seems very futuristic to me. The idea that you can literally have a direct relationship be like, do you guys want to buy this? Or what would you like me to make? You know, I have these rare vinyls that I found. Who wants them? You know, it's such a cool idea. Or I'm having an event for everybody who's just in this group. Like, that is exciting and that sounds really futuristic and it sounds like empowering for artists to be more autonomous. And I think that definitely needs to be the future for artists to be able to monetize their work directly because they have their fan base right in front of them and they know who really cares about what they're doing. And they don't have to pay more people and more people and more people to pretend that they're doing some work, you know, that it really happened.

Well, that's what I think. Like, you're right, because there's this idea of, you know, I think with the NFT crypto thing people got, you know, like, obviously that's just another thing people are selling. But the idea of, like, creating these sort of, like, communities and the. Ultimately you could have shows where you could have your community come and see you play open for another artist in their community could get an opportunity to see you play. And you kind of put together this sort of online version of a scene, you know, and that's not bounded by borders.

Totally. And also, I mean, I just started. My mind's called Fan Club. It's really generic, which is what it's meant to be. I thought it was funny. But so, yeah, it's called fan club. And I just. I'm about to launch. I don't Think I've launched it yet. It's this space called Studio. And basically what it's meant to do is be a place for my, only my fans to kind of have that community and build a community. And the idea is hopefully that it will become a cool community of people being able to meet. Obviously it's online, but it's not like the general web where you, you don't really know who's there or whatever. These are people who are like, really, really interested in this. And the way I set it out, and I don't even think I put it, I haven't launched it yet actually. But I, I, when I was talking about the space, I equated it to when I was at Quaker school. In high school, I went to Quaker school and we used to have this thing called meeting for worship once a week for 45 minutes in the meeting house. And basically the whole school just sat in silence for 45 minutes. And if anybody was moved to say anything, you would just stand up and say it. Because the idea is that there's that of God in everyone. That's the Quaker creed. And, and so if you have anything to say, then it's inspired by God. So you could say, it could be about anything, like anything you have to say. So you stand up, you're like 14, you're like, I am today. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, like, you get all these like awkward little cute things that people say and then you sit back down and everybody sits and reflects on what you said. That's it. Nobody responds to it, whatever. And then until somebody else feels like they have something to say, then they stand up. It's so awesome. And it's really empowering too, as a kid to have done that. But I was like, what if you have a space where it's like that, where you know that the people in this space are thinkers and respectful and like, and like minded and share interests and, and it's just a place where you could like, I don't know, share things that are interesting and grow ideas. But it's literally based around a very curated group of people. And it's the same thing as like finding community around people that like the artists that you like how we used to do, you know, I don't know, I just think that it's a, there's, I don't know, I don't think people have figured it out all the way, but I think there's potential there to, to start recreating those spaces. Because then once you have the space Online, you can take it to. To physical. You're like, okay, I'm having this movie screening tonight for everybody in this group. Let's go. You know.

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, and you mentioned them earlier, and I've heard you talk about them before, but I think, you know, it'd be interesting to see what a band like Devo, if they were still like an active band in that way, would be doing with these sorts of tools that are at our disposal right now. Because, you know, that's a band that. That did galvanize community around it, and. And that community wound up being the people that created all sorts of amazing art when they, you know, were inspired by that.

I just think part of the problem is that then and now are so different in what it requires to sustain yourself, you know, to make a living and have a livelihood, especially once you have kids and stuff. There's so much less time to be creative. And that is the problem. Just the hustle. It leaves no time for you to really do any of the things that are really creative and fun and exciting. And that's what we have to work on, like, how do we take time back? How do we clear space? How do we make things move a little bit slower and take some of the demands off? Because when you're doing that much stuff, you don't get to the best stuff. You don't get to make the coolest thing. You don't get to have great ideas. And it sucks because it puts a lot of pressure on the youth because they're the only ones with the time. So they're the ones that have to go protest, and they are the ones that have to do this, and they're the ones that have to do everything. They're the ones that have to speak up for the environment. And it's like, it's not really fair. And it's also. It's not the best thing. I mean, it's great for them, but there has to be partnership. Like, then the older people who have experience and have wisdom and whatever we should have, we should be coming at it from another angle of, like, you know, we have this experience and we know that the best use of energy is not going to be that. It's going to be this. So we'll take it from this way and continue to push this way. We'll build something that nobody at that point could have thought of because they don't have the experience and the connections and the, you know, the opportunities. And that's not happening because we're Too busy just spinning in this, like, hamster wheel.

And it's like what you said earlier. I think we're less adapted to use this technology than these kids are, you know, that we're like, we don't know how to give ourselves limits on these. I mean, the global we. When I say the we. But, like, that's the worst. Struggling to try and figure out this technology. My hope is that our. Our children who have grown up with this thing will be maybe immune a little bit more to its powers in the long term, or. My eldest has no interest in social media. He's like. Like, he'll watch stuff, but, like, in terms of, like, you know, I want to put myself out there. I want to put this embarrassing photo of myself on the Internet. He's like, why would I ever want. He's like, delete any photo of me, dad.

Delete.

Do not put that out.

And it sucks because being like that doesn't pay off, you know, as an artist, that's for sure. But it does pay off as a human being. So you're doing a good job with that.

I think he's just rebelling against me. I think if the thing I'm doing is inspiring him by setting a terrible example that he does not want to follow at all.

Yeah, he's like, I'm not doing that. But, you know, the thing is, you know, some of us may struggle with technology or not really relate to it in the same way, but the partnership that I'm talking about is to be like, hey, this is actually more important than what everybody's talking about right now. And the reason is because in history, this happened in the context of this, and this was. And this is how we did things then. And if somebody could take, you know, the focus that you guys are all doing, the technology, but actually shift the focus to this, which is way more important and way more interesting. That's the conversation that needs to be happening across generations, because they need our perspective, our experience, our hindsight to help steer them. And then we need their time, energy, fresh perspectives, and that's how we work together. But also, there's no value for wisdom through generations anymore. There's no value for. So it's like we're really just getting in our own way so much and not making use of all the members of society and all the way. The different ways that people think, like we were saying earlier, and all the different levels of. Or the different styles of getting things done.

Yeah, there's a very intense generational distrust, it seems now.

Yeah, I mean, understandably, because if you look at who's running the government, I mean.

Yeah, and also Facebook and Fox News really made some asses out of the previous generations.

So I mean, it's not even just them. It's like, look at that movie, the Social Dilemma. You know, it is like it's a very distrustful reality where you just feel like you're being manipulated for corporate usage and, and then they're literally numbing out whole generations of kids by having them addicted to, to technology or on drugs. I mean really, I mean drugs are so popularized in modern music and who's doing that? Who's signing that stuff? Who's telling people that if your song's not about this, it's not going to get on radio? These are corporations and they're literally like numbing out the entire generation that actually could be making change. They can continue to do what they're doing.

Well, and like, we're talking about artists, like a lot of these artists are self medicating and are, you know, working way too hard, churning out way too much of their themselves or you know, exposing way too much of themselves and, and just self medicating and talking about it. Like there's just no. Yeah, man, this is ending very bleakly. I was hoping we'd end on much more positive note.

Well, I was gonna say this, I was gonna say this. There is a thing though, right, where you talk about self made medicating or even getting therapy or getting help. And I've had conversations along the mental health crisis in, in music particularly. Oh well, labels should build in a stipend for mental health. All that is fine. But guess what? If we don't change the system that's making people so stressed out and hitting, you know, walls every, at every turn. And like if we don't change the system where people can't create a good life for themselves without killing themselves, then it's not going to change. People are still going to be on drugs and people are still going to have mental health issues and whatever. We have to change the system, system so that life feels different and life feels better and that we have an easier time taking care of ourselves and making a living and a happier existence. And those are the things that we really need to be addressing. And like, we can keep making music about it, we can keep doing drugs, we can keep like playing video games or whatever, but it's until we can actually like really challenge the things that are perpetuating this culture, you're not going to get anywhere.

Well, this has been an amazing conversation. And anytime you want to come back and talk about the frightening shape of the world or the Bad brains or the dead milkman, please know the door is always open.

Thank you so much for inviting me on. It's really great to be able to have, like, real good conversations. So I'm happy to be here.

Thank you so much, Santi, for coming on the show. And you heard right there, Santi will be back for a part two whenever she wants, because that was a lot of fun, that conversation. And speaking of fun, the fun does not stop here. Unturned out of punk because we're going from legend to legend. Next episode of the show. One of arguably the greatest songwriters to emerge from punk. Someone who is very reluctant to call himself a punk, but someone who I have a great conversation with nonetheless. From the Soft boys, the legend Robin Hitchcock is on the show.

That's right.

Robin will be coming to North America on a tour at the end of the month. And, yeah, I'm excited for you this one. This is a really cool conversation with someone I. I'd always wanted to talk to. All right, that is it for me. Remember, as always, black lives matter. The lives and issues of indigenous peoples all over the world matter. We need to protect trans kids and help trans people protect themselves and their rights. Stop hating violence towards people of different faiths and different races, because we're not talking about political stuff here. This is just basic human rights stuff. People deserve to be able to live free and. And not have to worry about this kind of hate and violence. So if there's organizations that are affecting positive change in your communities, get involved. You know, you can donate your time if you have money. I'm sure they could use some money, you know, your energy in some way. I also add to this that a human rights issue is the right to choose what you want to do with your reproductive system. And that shit's under attack in Canada and all over the world. You're seeing this happen where people are trying to take away people's rights. You know, people are going after people's. You know, people. There's just nowhere to start because there's nowhere to end with this sort of conversation. But it is infuriating to sit back and watch sometimes. But I promise, if you get involved or talk to the people around you and strengthen your kind of community, you know, hopefully we can affect positive change and get rid of some of the frustration in the world right now. You know, it's very frustrating time. Speaking of getting involved, get involved in punk. Do something. Create your own culture. Anyone can do this. To quote Tony Irba, start a band, start a fanzine, start a podcast. Well, maybe not a podcast, but do something. I do a podcast. Do whatever you can. Just anyone can do this. Anyone can do these things and. And look where it can take you. You know, I think that's what I. I hope people get out of this podcast. Every episode is that these are all just people that just did it, you know, and ended up, you know, in some cases, like the next two weeks, becoming legends. Sign your organ donor cards, because by the time they come looking at those organs, you don't need them. It's literally dead weight at that point. And I've seen firsthand the miracles organ transplants can. Can do for people. And so sign your organ donor cards. Try meditation. It worked for me, and I need to do it more, but when I do, it works, and I find just the practice coming into daily life. And I know people have known this for centuries. I know I'm not coming up with anything new, but it was new to me, so maybe it's new to you. All right, that's it. Thank you, everyone, for listening, and I will see you on the next episode.