107 | Empathy & Compassion in Organisational Culture | Rob Volpe

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

So empathy has been around for a long time, but it's not taught, it's not championed, so we kind of squash it out, and it's time now to really bring it back.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Lovely to have you back. Thanks for listening. I always forget to say this bit at the end, so I'll just say it now. If you like the podcast, if you're listening on Apple, please give us a review. And if you'd like to, a 5-star would be lovely as well. Just take a couple of minutes. That would be really very much appreciated because it gets the word out there. Before we get into today's guest, who I'm really excited about, my usual thank you to our friend supporter Workvivo. As usual, if you're looking at channels, and I've actually been out with a few clients recently who are talking about putting in place SharePoint intranets, and I'm saying, no, don't do the SharePoint intranet, just look at Workvivo because straight out the box cloud-based solution for you to engage with your colleagues, your employees, wherever they are all around the world. So workvivo.com for a bit more on them, and you'll hear a little more from them later. So today's guest, I was introduced to, actually he contacted me and I had a look as I often do. And I went, that's really interesting because the subject that he's the expert in and he calls himself an empathy activist. I love that. He's all about the empathy. And I think it's one of those things that still we chuck at leaders and we say, it's very important that you're empathetic. And it's very important that you show humility. And it's very important that you do 50,000 other things whilst also trying to do your job because we don't actually let you just be a people leader. Expect you to be a people leader and do a job on the side. So I'm really excited today to chat to Rob Volpe, who is the CEO at Ignite360, based in San Francisco. And he's also written a book on empathy. I'm gonna let him tell us a little bit more about that in a sec. But for now, hello, Rob.

Scott, hello. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

It is a pleasure. And we are having a, despite the fact that I'm in Dublin and you're in San Francisco, we're having a shared heat wave 'cause it's about, it's probably about, 66, 68 here. It's about 88 where you are.

Yeah, it's quite warm. A little, little, uh, hot under the collar, literally, not figuratively.

So here we are on some of the nicest days of the year, locked in our various places with, with all the heat going on, having a conversation over Zoom. But listen, it's lovely to, lovely to have you here. Thanks for, thanks for taking the time.

Yeah, thank you. And, and thank you for mentioning Workvivo. I'm like, I we're in the market for some communication cloud-based stuff. So I'm like, ooh, I, I've not heard of this, I need to check it out. Um, and that is me being— this is genuine, this is not a plug or a, a sponsored thing from me.

Um, I'd like, I'd just like to say, I'd like to back that up, that was not a plug or a sponsored thing, that was not something we agreed beforehand, listeners. Um, listen, let's kick off. Why don't you tell me, give me the quick kind of 60 seconds, 2 minutes on Rob Volpe, where you are, what you do, what you're at right now.

Sure. So, uh, Rob Volpe, I'm the CEO, chief catalyst, and empathy activist at Ignite 360. Ignite 360 is an insights strategy and training firm. So we grew up doing marketing research, helping our clients connect with their consumers, customers, clients to better understand how they think, feel, and, and behave. And a lot of that work is grounded in empathy and storytelling, um, and and helping our clients make those connections. We found that there was a huge barrier for, for some clients to actually connect with people. And so clients started asking us to train them in what we do so well. And that's led to our empathy training programs and other things. But then in particular, me stepping forward as an empathy activist, writing this book, Tell Me More About That: Solving the Empathy Crisis One Conversation at a Time, and really working to help organizations better understand how to use empathy and, and people within organizations, leaders, managers, individual contributors.

Brilliant. Super. Thank you. So I want to get into a bit of the detail of the book in a while, because I know you've got these 5 steps to empathy that are outlined in the book and in your training. I'd like to get to those in a while. I want to just kind of just dig into empathy a little bit more first, because I think that we often hear it described as that idea of walking in somebody else's shoes. How would you define it? It seems to me that's quite a high-level definition. How would you define empathy?

Yeah, that's the colloquial definition of it, and it is true. I often, when I'm giving talks on empathy, I'll ask the audience to give me some definitions of empathy, and I typically hear 3 different things. One is walking in someone else's shoes, but I also hear something around feeling the feelings of somebody else or emotionally connecting with somebody and understanding what they're feeling. And then I also hear being able to see the point of view of somebody else. And the thing about empathy, and part of what's created the misunderstandings that so many people have today with empathy, is that all of those are correct. There's different types of empathy, and we need to know when and how to leverage that. So the way I define empathy is connecting with someone else in order to understand their perspective or their feelings and reflect that back to them, walk in their shoes as them. And that's the important thing of taking your own shoes off, as they say, before you put on somebody else's.

Yeah, I love that. Take off your own shoes before stepping into theirs. You're literally leaving behind your feelings, your perspectives in order to get a fuller understanding of theirs.

Yeah, yeah. Steve Case, I saw that attributed to Steve Case, CEO of Intuit at one point, and I was like, oh duh, of course that's what you need to do. And for us, and we'll get into the 5 steps in a bit, but so much of that taking off your own shoes is about dismantling your judgment and being present and having the self-awareness of what you're doing and how you're engaging in the conversation. So our shoes are more like heavy Doc Marten boots rather than— or construction boots rather than a nice little slip-on comfy pair of slippers.

I'm laughing and nodding my head vigorously, listeners, because probably there is barely an episode of this podcast that goes by where I don't get to get on my self-awareness high horse. Because I think that's something that's really sorely lacking, particularly in organizations, the ability of people to stop and say, was that the best way to do that? Could I have done that differently? I wonder how the other person felt. Maybe I should ask them. I mean, I don't know about you, but that's something that I found sorely lacking in organizations.

Oh, and it's been growing, I think. Becoming even more challenging over time. And I think with this transition to remote work and so many Zoom calls, team calls, what have you, choose your platform, you don't have that breathing time in between calls anymore. And so you're just going from one thing to the next to the next to the next, and you don't have time to reflect and to step back. And so you're having to find those micro-moments between stimulus and response to choose to dive in, have some self-awareness of, wait, how am I showing up? How do I want to behave? How do I want to respond? And do that. And we, we have to, um, it's, it's kind of sad, but we need to, um, prioritize that and prioritize doing it in the moment as well as having a more general sort of reflection over a coffee or a cup of tea in the afternoon.

Yeah, it's interesting that that whole idea that actually maybe that self-awareness thing is the lack of self-awareness thing, rather than people just not being self-aware, is being driven I hadn't thought about it like that, is being driven by what we've now created with back to back to back to back meetings, where as you say, it's a case of you've got a couple of minutes, do you think, you know, do you self-reflect for a couple of minutes or do you go to the toilet or do you grab a glass of water? That's kind of what it's boiling down to, right?

Right. And then when you're doing those things, are you allowing yourself to be distraction-free and let your brain reset and have that self-awareness, whether you're going to the toilet, getting water, or checking your email, Or do you have your phone in your hand and you're scrolling for a minute on Twitter or Insta or TikTok, whatever it is, which isn't about self-awareness, that's just plugging into even more stimulus. So, you know, there's, I think, a few different factors. The social media element of it and the screens and the distractions we were having there, that's been building over time. And then the pandemic was really a great accelerator for so many of the things that we've been, um, you know, the, the drain we've been circling, so to speak, as, as a society. And it just sped that up.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, let's get back to empathy for a second because I want to just ask you, why, why do you believe that empathy has played such an important role in, in the workplace of today?

Well, empathy is this secret ingredient if you want to be successful at work, regardless of the role, if you want to be successful in life, your personal life, your professional life, but we're talking about work. So if you want to be successful at work, you need to be a great communicator. You've got to make good decisions. You've got to problem solve, ideate. You've got to build trust with people. Empathy plays a critical role in all of those things. It's the secret ingredient to all of these skills that we use. Every single day. And if you can use empathy, you're going to have a much more— as one of your data points in your decision-making, for example, you're going to have a much more successful outcome. It's kind of like, you know, if you're in anything that you're doing, do you want to have the entire picture or do you want to have a slice of the pie missing? So I've got this, you know, 360-degree wheel. Empathy is one critical part of that. There's other, you know, your business considerations, situations, but you've got to have empathy with whomever is being affected by what you're doing or what you're, you know, the people you are trying to solve a problem for or the, you know, organization itself. Empathy is really critical to that. And then you're able to reflect empathy in your communication, in your conversation. And it's as simple as acknowledging somebody else's point of view. I can see where you're coming from and and repeating that, um, showing as you're explaining, communicating a decision that's been made, that yes, I heard that you need this and we understand that. This is what the business situation is, therefore the decision we've made is somewhere here in the middle, or it might lean towards exactly what the employees want, or whomever you're working with. If you're able to communicate it that way, it helps everybody else understand. So that's going to lead to a more positive outcome, more acceptance. You're to have better dialogue with people when you're reflecting that, hey, I hear where you're coming from, I see your point of view.

Yeah. And what do you think, what are the benefits do you believe that has for employees? And then if you extend that out further, perhaps on organizational performance?

Yeah, I mean, the studies that are out there are finding that, you know, A, there's more loyalty to an organization if they feel, if the employees feel they have empathetic leadership. Or that the organization is empathetic to the point where 90% of Gen Z in a recent— so there's an organization called Business Solver, and they have a State of Workplace Empathy study every year, and I love this study. But some of their data finds that 90% of Gen Z are more likely to stay at an empathetic employer organization. They've also found that two-thirds of employees are indicate they're more likely to be innovative if they have an empathetic manager or leader versus, you know, maybe 13%, I think it is, that feel they can be innovative at work. So do you want your employees to solve problems, be innovative, come up with new solutions, help drive the business forward? There's an increase— an evidence of an increase in a feeling of belonging and inclusivity if you have a more empathetic organization. And the challenge of that in that same study, 75% of employees recognize that there is empathy in their organization, but only 25% identify that empathy as sufficient. So there's a, a major gap there. And then there's the real challenge that, that comes to doing this. You know, I, I often talk about empathy as this E-word people are afraid of, and I've got a slide of teenagers in a movie theater watching a horror film and they're all freaked out and And it is, people are afraid of empathy because they think it's emotion, which is another E word people are uncomfortable with. And that's where I get into this helping people understand that no, there's emotional empathy and that has its place, but there's also cognitive empathy and that's the perspective taking. And that's what we need in our day-to-day life at work, going to the grocery store, doing all the other things that we do. It's about cognitive empathy, seeing the point of view of somebody else, understanding and where they might be coming from. So if you can get beyond that, then you, you look at, okay, creating empathy in an organization. Um, 69— there's also out of this Business Solver study, um, this data just came out this year, which just was shocking to me. 69% of CEOs believe it's their job to build empathy in the workplace. And I'm like, yes, hooray! So two-thirds recognize that that's their job if you're a leader. However, 79% say they struggle to be empathetic themselves, and 77% worry that they're going to lose respect if they're too empathetic. And that number has gone up by 9 points, um, since the prior year's study.

So they think, they think that being— by being less empathetic, they're going to be less— by being more empathetic, they're going to be less respected.

Exactly. They will lose respect if they— and I think that goes into the idea of they, they see empathy from this emotional perspective and the feelings, and that, that's not the stereotype strong leader versus no, it's the cognitive empathy. And you are missing— if you're not bringing empathy into it, you are missing one of the key points of data to make decisions and to drive your behavior. But there's this real problem because CEOs, leaders have been trained, oh, you're not— we have these very old masculine stereotypes of what leaders are supposed to be and it's this whole sort of Mad Men sort of thing, emotions have no place. Well, no, it's not that. It's about seeing the point of view, hearing how other people are thinking. And Henry Ford, back in 1918, there is a quote I found from Henry Ford in 1918, and he said, "The secret of success lies in being able to see the other person's point of view as well as your own and then effectively using that." And it's It's like, all right, over 100 years ago, and he was successful in the workplace and everything and leading a business, he brought that idea forward. So empathy has been around for a long time, but it's not taught, it's not championed, so we kind of squash it out. And it's time now to really bring it back.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie. For more. Okay. A beautiful segue into how do we bring it back? So you've written the book, you've done a course. This is what you do with your clients all the time. You've got these, what you've identified as 5 steps to empathy. Listeners, get your pens ready. This is the gold. Here comes the gold stuff now.

Here we go. Here we go.

So let's, why don't we talk? Let's do this. Why don't we get, I'm going to get you to talk through each one. Perhaps give us just a really practical way perhaps that people can bring that to life. So what I love on these podcasts, I've been able to just even in the moment or as soon as they finish listening, just go off and do something. Just go off and actually bring to life what you've just said. So let's do that. Let's go through each one and let's bring it to life.

I've got a couple of examples that will be fun for your listeners to try to do, but I'm going to start actually. So there are the 5 steps, but I'm going to start even above that. So this is a bonus for your listeners. There's actually 4 4 sort of macro things that people need to be doing. And one of them we've already talked about, which is self-awareness. You need to have self-awareness so that you can, second one, have the courage to make the decision on how you're going to show up. So self-aware of your own behavior and in those moments have courage to actually do this. It's not easy. I liken it to smiling. Like, it takes more muscles to smile than it does to frown. But what happens when you smile? People around you are happier and you feel happier. Same thing with empathy. It takes work to do this, but if you have the courage to do it, you're going to feel better. The third macro area is to practice the 5 steps, which I'll dive into, and to really practice it and recognize that you're not going to get this right the first time. We're human. And that leads me to that fourth step of having grace and forgiveness with yourself, because we are all human and we all need to try to do better. And I, I I'm the first person to say I'm not perfect. I wrestle with, with this. So within that, that practicing the 5 steps. So these are the things then where when you're in the moment and needing to, to try to get to a place of empathy, what are the things that are going on? And this is all based off of the work we did with our clients and the barriers we saw them coming up with, looking at ourselves, looking at the research that was already out there, consulting with psychologists. So we've done some work to to verify and validate all of this. But the 5 steps, the first one is dismantling judgment. That typically, if you are working white-collar job, knowledge worker, this is probably the bigger and more challenging step for you because we're taught to have an opinion, have judgment. And it's not about making a judgment, it's about being judgmental and that casting aspersion with somebody. The solve for this is really about having awareness and catching yourself and choosing to do something different. So a really easy exercise for people is in a private moment of reflection, just make notes of some times where you feel like you've been judgmental about somebody else, about a situation. And it's not making a judgment, it's being judgmental where you've wanted to cast dispersion against somebody. And it can even be against yourself because there's such a thing as self-empathy. But just write that down and reflect on it and then think about how might you have rephrased that thought so that it didn't have that judgment. Um, so there's judgment, and that's about having the awareness, understanding where that's coming from, making the choice. Second one is asking good questions. When you're trying to understand where somebody's coming from, you're not going to be able to get there if you're just asking closed yes/no questions, or if you're asking a leading question where you're trying to get somebody to affirm your worldview. Instead, you want to be asking broad broad exploratory questions. So instead of saying, "Scott, how do you really feel about that heat wave?" I might say, "Scott, what weather do you prefer? What's your ideal weather climate?" Because if I bring up the heat wave, I'm getting you to lead into or grumble about it, and that's my worldview right now at the moment as I'm sweating in San Francisco. But if I ask you about ideal weather climates, you might say that you love it when it's hot, or you may go someplace else. It's very open. And so I'm going to get a more reliable answer that's true and right for you instead of leading you where I want you to go. The activity for your group, for listeners, is to take the word why out of your vocabulary for a day. And it's challenging. It's really hard to do this, but it's really important. We have been asked why. If you think back to the first time you were asked why, you were probably a toddler and you had probably done something wrong. And your caregiver, your parents said, "Why did you draw on the wall in crayon?" And it's asked in such a way, or you learn very quickly from experience, that depending on how you answer that why question, degree and severity of punishment will differ because you've done something wrong. So you're trying to rationalize and explain something away. So that habit has started really early on, and it continues, and it follows us into school. Why were you late to class? Why were you late with the report? Why, why were you passing notes in the back? Or why are you on social media right now? And then it continues as into our adulthood and into the workplace with many of the same questions. Why were you late to work? Why weren't you on that Zoom call? Why were you late the report. And so you're constantly making excuses. So when you ask somebody why, you're putting them on the defensive. Um, and so instead, reframe your why questions using who, what, where, when, and how. You still want to understand why, but ask the question differently. Instead of, why did you draw on the marker on the wall in crayon? It's "Tell me what happened when you drew on the wall. What was going on when you decided to draw on the wall with the marker? Talk to me about what was happening that made the report late." Just by saying that, "Why was the report late?" or "Why were you late with the report?" versus "Tell me what was going on that caused the report to be late." Well, it sounds way less confrontational immediately.

Even just listening to you saying the words, it sounds less confrontational.

Yeah, exactly. And that's what you want to do because then since it's less confrontational, I'm gonna open up and I might share something else that's really going on with me. Maybe I didn't understand the material well enough to write the report. Maybe I had, you know, personal emergency going on that requires your understanding, but I felt weird about asking for it or something. You don't know and you don't know until you ask, but you need to ask in a way that's non-confrontational and that's open. So for the listeners, take the word why out of your vocabulary. It's actually a great team exercise as well, and you can hold yourselves accountable, or you can do it with your family and just like, today is a why-free Monday, and we're, you know, not going to use that word. And you can make a game out of it if you want. So that's the second step, asking good questions. Third step, active listening.

Listening.

This is about paying attention, being present, using all of your senses when you're listening to somebody. So you're paying attention to the nonverbal cues as well as what's being said. So what's the body language telling you is the kind of classic. It's also about using your intuition. That's another thing where we ignore self-awareness, we ignore our intuition, but our gut is very rarely, if ever, wrong. So if your gut is telling you there's something else here or I need to go down this path, listen to it and follow that. And it's about that holistic, full attention and providing it. And I think a great exercise for people the next time they're on a Zoom call, try it with headphones on and see how the connection is different that you feel. By wearing headphones or AirPods or earbuds than when you are just out in ambient room. So right now you've got headphones on, I am right in your ear and you're not listening to anything else. I don't have headphones on, so while I'm paying attention and I'm listening to you, I can also hear the fan that's on in the other room. I've heard a plane circling around and maybe a bird heard. One of my cats will most likely meow at some point. So there's all these other things and they're little micro distractions. So I'm not quite as present. So to just bring awareness to that idea of active listening, you know, do a call with headphones, maybe half the call with, half the call without, and just again, self-awareness, pay attention to what's different.

And I think probably from an active listening perspective, it's interesting. Sorry to jump in on you there. I think that certainly I am guilty of waiting to jump back in, in a conversation because I love being in the conversation. So I'm probably one of those people. I am listening, but I'm listening to get the opportunity to jump back in as opposed to actually listening.

Yes. And it's about listening to understand.

As opposed to listening to respond.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's huge. I'm glad. Thank you for bringing that up. That is a really huge one within that active listening. And then anytime you're going into meeting, but even a workshop or something, we always talk about that as one of our ground rules, like listen to understand, not to debate, not to respond right away. You're listening to understand.

Just to clarify, if there's any of our clients listening, I do totally listen to you all the time. Just, I'll just, I'll just leave that there.

Hi, I'm Kleena from Workvivo. When working away from the office, it's easy for your people to feel isolated and disconnected from your culture and each other. That's where we come in with our quick-to-deploy employee communications platform. It's all about ensuring that your people feel informed, engaged, and connected to your company culture, values, goals, and each other wherever they work from. For more, see workvivo.com. Number 4 is integrate into understanding, and this is making room in your head that there are other points of views ways of viewing the world and being okay with that and instead being curious and open to it. And I write in the book, I share stories from my research experience and in a lot of more charged situations that sort of society faces. So at a time that I got to go on a project to the National Rifle Association, which is the big annual gun show here in the US. I'm a liberal lefty from San Francisco. That was really challenging for me. Another project we did, on legalized marijuana usage and the challenges that some people have with people using marijuana. And it's about integrating into your understanding, it's making room in your head that, "Hey, there's just another way of viewing things," and be curious about it, be open to understand. So the fun exercise for people is to just have a conversation with someone or many someones about their favorite flavor of ice cream. And imagine that you are going to, um, the ice cream parlor, the ice cream shop, and you've only got money for one scoop and one flavor, um, that is going to need to satisfy everybody. So you've got to come to some sort of a compromise, but you need to understand where everybody else is coming from. So, um, and it's really fun. I do this, um, with, with group sessions, and the range of flavors of ice cream that people come, you know, say are their favorites, from, you know, chocolate, vanilla, strawberry to pistachio to really elaborate, you know, salted caramel brownie.

Oh yeah, yes, just yes, yes, that one.

Yes, yes, sign me up. But if you and I needed to find a compromise on that, you know, and it's about understanding like, okay, so you like pistachio and I like chocolate, so what's What is it about the pistachio? Is it the fact that it's the nuts? Is it the flavor of the nut? Is it the fact that it's green? And then what are the things about my ice cream and how do we find that compromise? Because if it's all about green ice cream, then I'm going to suggest we go for mint chocolate chip. Maybe I've got a nut allergy, but another green ice cream, you know? So it's about being open and like, it's ice cream. It's okay. Somebody can have another favorite flavor that's different from yours, it doesn't make them wrong.

See, if it was mint choc chip, I'd probably have to ask you to leave the group. I'm sorry. Sorry, Rob, you're going to have to just go immediately. Leave.

And you're being judgmental. So then it's like, okay, that's not going to— So we don't want to do green ice cream, so let's go on. Maybe we need to find another flavor. Maybe there's a chocolate nut combo thing. Yeah, so it's that idea and that's the exercise to have a conversation. You're going to the ice cream shop, only money for one. Talk with somebody and figure out what flavor of ice cream are you going to get based on your own favorite flavors and be curious about why somebody— but don't say why. What is it about that flavor that you like so much? So you're starting to use some of the other steps as well. As you get to integrate into understanding. And then once you have that, that's where you start to use solution imagination. So I was doing that when I suggested falsely— had I asked you more questions, I would have understood. But when I suggested, oh, okay, so you like pistachio and it's a green ice cream, I'm using solution imagination. I'm taking what I may— and you didn't talk about it, so But I'm using solution imagination, using what I've heard from somebody to then move the conversation forward or move the decision-making forward with that information integrated. So it starts to get into that practice of empathy, of that understanding and applying it and trying to close the gap from knowledge to action.

Cool.

And that one, you know, exercise for people is to actually do that, to try to say in your next conversation with somebody, and again, it can be a team exercise, use words like, "I can see your point of view. I understand where you're coming from. I can imagine how you feel." And not just say those words because those can be platitudes. Say those words and then continue on to express what you understand to be their point of view or the way that they're feeling and ask at the end, If you got it right, and if you got it right, then you can, okay, great. And so I feel, you know, here's my point of view, and you continue on and continue the conversation.

I love that. And I think going into that little bit more depth rather than just, you know, look, I'm sorry, I understand where you're coming from, to go into that little bit more depth is very much akin to saying to to somebody, thank you for that great job. As opposed to thank you for that great job where you did X, Y, and Z detail thing that we want you to repeat and that we're very, very grateful for that particular piece. Because it's that detail that I think makes this most helpful.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a great build on that.

Yeah. Yeah. Great. Listen, we're nearly out of time. So that's been brilliant. And thank you for the exercises. I thought they were really interesting. So listeners, have your notepads and pens out and we'll make sure they're in the show notes as well. We've covered an awful lot in the past half an hour or so. And I wonder if there's one thing that you think that perhaps leaders in organizations could do to be more empathetic right now, to focus on just one thing. Maybe it's one of the 5 steps or maybe it's something else, but what would that one thing be?

Well, going back to the data we talked about earlier where they struggle and they're worried they're gonna lose respect, I encourage everybody to be courageous. Maya Angelou has a great quote where she said, "I believe we all have the ability to have empathy. We may not have the courage to display it." And I agree with her 1,000%. She's absolutely correct. And so I always encourage people, be courageous to be empathetic and think about it as one conversation at Brilliant.

Rob, if people want to find out more about you, uh, this is your chance for an actual plug. Um, if they want to find out more about the book or they wanna find out more about you, where's the best place to, to get hold of you?

So I'm gonna send them to two different places, um, depending on what they're interested in. The Five Steps to Empathy and the book, tell me more about that, Solving the Empathy Crisis. Book is available wherever people prefer to buy books and in all the platforms and formats. Um, but they can go to Five, number Five Steps to Empathy.com. Um, and that's more information on me and the steps and speaking and workshops. And they can also, um, get there and learn more about the insights work through ignite-360.com, which is the company.

Brilliant stuff, Rob. It's been an absolute pleasure. Um, I've enjoyed— I've really, really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Scott, thank you. This has really been a pleasure, and I'm going to go check out Workvivo now.

Well done. Goodbye. Take care.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcast to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.