116 | The Adventure of Leadership: Unleashing Your Inner Explorer | Sue Stockdale

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

Inspiration, I think, is often an underutilized skill that leaders are not using best to inspire their people to change. When our leader is there supporting and encouraging us and sharing and recognizing the belief in your, in your potential, that will inspire you to want to up your game and do your best for your leader.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Lovely to have you back if you are a former listener, or lovely to have you on if this is your first time. First of all, my usual quick thank you to Workvivo, our friend and sponsor. Again, as I always say, if you're struggling to communicate with your staff, struggling to align them with your strategy, struggling willing to just connect them to each other and to the organization in this whole new world of work, then you should be having a look at their platform. You'll find more about them at workvivo.com, and you will hear a little bit more from them later on. Also, as I've said in previous episodes, if you can take 2 minutes just to give us a wee 5-star rating and a comment, I'd really appreciate it. It takes a bit of time to pull the podcasts together, and it's just really nice when we can get some feedback from you you all, and it really helps with our listings on Apple as well. So thanks very much for doing that. It's interesting that when I had my little pre-conversation with today's guest, she said, hello, my name is Sue Stockdale, I'm a polar explorer. And I went, I think we're done. I think we can just arrange a time to have the conversation. We didn't really talk very much further than that, to be perfectly honest. I should also add that Sue is also an executive coach and an author, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a while. Sue, hello there.

Hi, Scott. Great to be here.

Super job. Two Scots on the call. We'll have to make sure that we don't spend 3 hours on this. It's lucky we don't have tea, because if we had tea, we could be here for a week. Sue, why don't you kick off by just telling us a little bit about you, where you've come from, a little bit about that Polar experience that I mentioned at the top, and a bit about what you do now.

Maybe the best way to describe that is I'm in the business of inspiration and inspiring leaders to maximize their potential, to be prepared to step out their comfort zone and change. And how I got to being in that business is really giving you the backstory. I began my life in a corporate career in training and development, so I was learning and teaching people about great leadership, how to be an effective manager. And then I did a bit, a bit of a change and about turn almost in my career and took a big step into the unknown, stepping out my comfort zone, and spent a year working in a war zone with the United Nations. And that was a great challenge and opportunity to really learn about taking risks, trusting in yourself, and if it pays off, then you build more confidence. So that was the important lesson I learned from that experience. And of course, to see the reality of what a war zone is like, which is not always what we read in the media. And then back in the UK after that, I was on the train one day reading the newspaper, and an advert caught my eye, and it said, wanted 10 novice Arctic explorers. Now, I don't see adverts like that very often, but it was to ski 350 miles, 540 kilometers, to the magnetic North Pole. I didn't even know where that was, but I thought, it does sound like a cold place. So I sent off for the application form, and it came back as a brochure, and it said, "Are you man enough for the ultimate challenge?" And it was all pictures of men. Now there's a great motivator to take action. And that really led me into the next stage of my career, doing that expedition and then several others to remote parts of the world, challenging environments, and really putting that leadership theory into practice and seeing how teams and leaders can perform in those extreme environments. And then put those two ingredients together, the corporate experience, the reality of exploring, and I've been then using that to inspire people in business ever since for the last 25 years as a coach, as a writer, as a speaker.

Amazing. What an amazing life experience to have been to some of those places. And as you say, you know, sometimes it's just about taking the leap. You know, I quite like my corporate job, but actually, will I take a leap and go to a war zone for a year? Will I see a newspaper ad and think, walk to the North Pole? Why not? You know, let's just have a go. I think it's probably that sense of adventure. And as we'll come to talk about later on, perhaps a sense of curiosity that's kind of deep within you that's driven you to some of those places. When I think about us mere mortals who are kind of the average Joes, the average Janes, the average human beings, when you think about some of what you've done, how do you bring that theory or experience of expeditioning, of leadership into everyday practice for people that are just going about their lives, doing their jobs, doing what 99.5% of the population does?

But that's a great question, Scott, and I think it's all about using the power of metaphor. Because we— if we can think about our experience, our day-to-day job, our hobbies, our career, whatever it is, if we think about it a bit like an expedition, that ultimately we're probably aiming for something at the end, whether it's the paycheck, whether it's a get to the next level of your career, whether it's letting your team perform and deliver a result. We have that ambition hopefully within us, just like on an expedition. But along the way, going to the— into the Arctic, into the North Pole, I don't know whether we're going to fall in a crevasse zone, whether we're going to meet a polar bear, whether the team will gel. There's a lot of uncertainty and unknown, but you can't stop because there's no plane that's going to come in and pick you up. So you have to keep going, you have to keep taking action. So I encourage people to think about that from their own personal situation. If I looked at my life, if I looked at my job as an expedition or an adventure, who would be in the team? Where would be the uncertainties? Where would be the opportunities? And how would we keep going when it keeps getting tough? And it's that ability. So nobody wants to— has to go to the North Pole like me, but we can have an adventure every single day in our lives. I mean, a typical, typical thing that I do is I have something different for breakfast every single day. Now, it might sound a bit odd and think, well, that's a bit of a weird adventure. My husband probably likes to have toast every day, to be honest. But what that does is it serves as a little reminder for me that we shouldn't just get into comfort zones. We shouldn't just do habitual things all the time, because then when the unexpected comes along or we face a degree of uncertainty, we're not equipped to deal with it. Practice being uncomfortable, and then we're much better equipped to deal with it. So, those are just some of the ways that I help people think about their own everyday lives, just like I have normally, that we can bring a sense of adventure into it.

And it's interesting, I was actually only having a conversation with a future guest this morning, and we were chatting about the idea of being, particularly as a leader, being uncomfortable in some of the things that we do and perhaps becoming just, as opposed to not being uncomfortable, perhaps it's sometimes about being comfortable with being uncomfortable. And if we go back to your analogy of that perhaps being an expedition. I'm sure it wasn't feather down duvets and pillows as you walked 350 miles up the North Pole, um, and you probably were uncomfortable, but you had to become comfortable being uncomfortable, I guess.

Yes. And there's a, a professor, um, I'm trying to think of his name now, Professor Kevin Dutton from Oxford University, and, and there was a phrase that he uses that I, I love and like to repeat to others, is, uh, don't be a psychological splasher. And if you take it, think about when you go to the seaside and there's that sea out there, maybe cold water. There are those that will look at that and say, I know it's going to be cold, but I'm going to just run in and get all the pain over. And then once I'm in, I'll think, oh, this is not so bad. And there will be others that will look at that sea and then they will go, oh, it's gonna be cold. And they'll take one step in and then they'll think, oh, it's freezing. And they take another step in, oh my goodness, I hate this. And it takes them about 5 minutes to properly get into the sea. Now what they're experiencing is real pain and imagined pain. So actually, they're, they're max— they're multiplying the amount of pain they actually experience. So his philosophy of don't be a psychological splasher is don't splash your way into those difficult situations. Just say, I've got to decouple my emotions from my behavior. Except it's going to be uncomfortable. Accept the pain and then act regardless. And that's what a lot of adventurers do. So whether you're halfway up K2, whether you're going to the North Pole, or rowing a boat across an ocean, you have to leave your emotions, manage them such that you can still take action when you're uncomfortable.

Incredible. And if we take that back then into the office environment and bring us back into that kind of leadership in a more organizational or business context, what does that sense of adventure look like in the world of work? Where, you know, certainly the leaders that I speak to seem to be under immense pressure constantly, and that's only growing, seem to be under a huge amount of change or going through a huge amount of change. All the time, and that seems to be accelerating. What does a sense of adventure look like or mean in that context?

Well, it can take many different formats, and I agree with you that there is no letting up of the speed of change in business. So we only have to accept that it's probably going to get even quicker. So how do we cope with that? One of the common subjects that I spend a lot of time talking about with my coaching clients is they avoid or don't like having difficult conversations. So if you were bringing the mindset of a sense of adventure to having a difficult conversation, then you might bring a different way of behaving. So you might not avoid it at all. You might then say, okay, well, how do I embark on this with a sense of adventure? So maybe I change my terminology, the language I'm using, and rather than calling it difficult, maybe I change it and use a different term for that. Maybe I say it's going to be uncomfortable, or it might be a learning opportunity for me. So there's something about what language are you telling yourself that will help or hinder your behavior. I talk about the Adventurous Mindset, and there's 5 characteristics of that, and the number 1 thing is curiosity. So if we can, when we're feeling overwhelmed with our work, rather than perhaps not doing anything, how can we come up with curiosity rather than sort of judgment? There's so many things around here, or that part— this is going to be a difficult conversation, so I've already prejudged what the outcome going to be like. If I come up at it with curiosity, maybe I think, okay, how can I do this in a different way? What can I learn here? So there's, there's lots of different aspects of, um, in that busyness in our day. Another thing, for example, is saying no. A lot of leaders struggle with saying no. So what happens is then they say yes to everything, or they don't say anything, which actually is a decision in its own right. Because you're doing nothing, but you're not just saying— you're just not saying that in those situations. Then how does a leader then take back control to say, okay, amidst this potential for overwhelm, if I take back control and accept that I can't manage everything or I can't control everything, just like in the Arctic, I can't control the weather, I can't control the polar bears, I can't control the other team members, there's so many things I can't control, but I have to say I'm in control of my own mindset here. And even at the, at the very minimalist activity that I can do, I can choose how I think. And if I'm thinking I can't ski any faster, I can't keep up with the team, well, my speed of skiing will get slower. If I think I'll do my best, I'll just see how I get through the next 5 minutes, so I get through 5 minutes, and then I think maybe I'll do the next 5 minutes. And it's that ability to take the big strategic goals, sometimes the big chunky activities that often get left on leaders' plates, and they say, I haven't got time to get to that, I'll just do all this reactive stuff. What if they chunked that down and said, okay, from this big goal, I've got half an hour today and I'm going to write the plan to create the plan. I'm gonna, I'm gonna identify how I break this big goal into 5 steps. That's what we're going to do in the next 30 minutes. Now they've taken control and that big strategic goal has started to happen., and then maybe it'll be easier the next time to take that step, to take that action. So there are lots of different ways. I think it's about understanding, becoming aware of what is actually in your mind, how you're approaching things, and then having strategies to manage yourself amidst this busyness, chaos, and uncertainty that everybody experiences. Hi, I'm Cliona from Workvivo. When working away from the office, it's easy for your people to feel isolated and disconnected from your culture and each other. That's where we come in with our quick-to-deploy employee communications platform. It's all about ensuring that your people feel informed, engaged, and connected to your company culture, values, goals, and each other wherever they work from. For more, see workvivo.com.

Interesting. And I think, you know, it reminds me of that that quote that Warren Buffett said once, which I think was something like, the difference between successful people and wildly successful people is that wildly successful people say no to almost everything. So they don't get that sense of overwhelm. They are completely focused. But I guess for the average leader or perhaps person listening or me, it doesn't quite run like that. But I guess to your point about using your psychology and your mindset more positively is a great way to, to kind of combat some of those feelings.

And also is coming back to knowing yourself. So investing in yourself to really understand where your strengths lie. I often share with leaders an analogy of imagine yourself like a bottle of aftershave or a bottle of perfume. Put on too much of that and it's just completely overwhelming. But if you think about, about it being a very expensive scent, then the trick is to know where, you know, how much to dab on that will be appropriate in the situation. So from a leader's perspective is where are they going to add most value. So you need to know what your value is. And there are things that people spend a lot of time doing that I see and hear in my coaching conversations that aren't really adding value. So they're attending meetings that they don't really need to be at, partly because maybe they don't trust their team members. Maybe they've never thought about whether they actually need to be there for the whole time or whether they could just stuck in for 10 minutes, for example. So there's lots of things that people get involved in that if they were really critical about how— where's my strategic value and what should I be spending most of my time doing— they can completely rearrange their day. But that requires the initial even stepping back and thinking about it. So it's not easy, but it can be done.

And, and yet again, in yet another podcast episode, we get to self-awareness, because that seems to be— all roads seem to lead to increased awareness, increased at least self-awareness. And I think it's really interesting that that point about leaders playing where they should be playing to be most effective. I sometimes think, and again, I think we all suffer from a bit of this. I'm sure there's probably in the world of psychology a name for it, that sometimes we just like doing the things that make us comfortable. Sometimes going to that meeting means that we can sit down and we know exactly what we're doing. We're fully in control. We can probably say something that sounds quite plausible and clever. And that's okay. And it's easier than perhaps going back And to your point earlier, Sue, breaking down that great big project that we've been looking at on the side of our desk and going, "Oh, Jesus, no, I can't. No, I just can't look at that. I'll go to a meeting instead, or I'll look at my phone instead, or I'll do email instead because that's easier." And they're the things that often we go for.

Absolutely. I would ask listeners to think about when they do that, are they doing it consciously or are they doing it habitually? And that's where the awareness comes in. And I often think about having like a little, um, a bird on the wire or a bird on my shoulder. If I'm— if I can get into that position for myself, so I call it like that observer mode, if I can be noticing myself whilst I'm also doing whatever it is I'm doing, from that position I can say, what's the intention behind this? So why am I going to— why am I going to that meeting? Or why am I choosing to do that activity? That avoidance activity because I can't stand the big pile of to-dos in the corner of my desk. If we can do it without awareness, then we've got conscious choice. We can then maybe next time say, I choose not to do that, I'll choose to do something differently. What happens when we haven't got time to think is we do it all without awareness habitually, and then we haven't actually got the choice to change our behavior. We're just in it, we're in the mode, not thinking about it. And so that's why coming back to really investing in time to free up space somewhere And sometimes a, a coaching client can come and spend an hour with me in conversation, and actually I don't really have to say anything. Effectively, they just download and solve their own issues, which is ideally what coaching's about. And, and within that space, they've went, wow, this is brilliant just to have an hour to think. So I say, well, you know, how else could you put that in your day? You don't have to come and have a coach for that. Just how do you make space to think? And that really makes all the difference as well.

Yeah, I think it's that, you know, I mean, I certainly block out an hour at lunchtime every day. I don't get to use it every time, but at least it's in there.

And then when I'm looking at my calendar I'll try to put things around it.

And I did up until about 6 months ago, I would have Tuesday and Thursday afternoons in just for thinking time, 3:00 to 5:00, 3:00 to 5:30, just for actually doing the work as opposed to being on calls, actually being able to get some really good quiet work done. Let's go back to change for a wee second. As we said, it seems to be accelerating for everybody in the world, not least what's been going on over the past couple of years, but of course the whole idea of change. And as you said there yourself, when you're out on on the ice going to the North Pole, there's lots of stuff that you haven't got control of. There's lots of stuff that's happening to you. How do leaders best navigate change in organizations? What do you think they need to be thinking about? What kind of mindset do they need to be in?

Well, there's a great question again. I think two things spring to mind, Scott McInnes. First is the underutilized power of inspiration. And that's— I think inspiration is like free energy, and it can pull people towards change as opposed to pushing us towards change. And by that, I mean when we're inspired because we believe in the bigger purpose of our organization, and so therefore we're prepared to do what it takes to change. When our leader is there supporting and encouraging us and sharing and recognizing the belief in your, in your potential, that will inspire you to want to up your game and do your best for your leader. Is so, so inspiration, I think, is often an underutilized skill that leaders are not using best to inspire their people to change. So that's one thing. And then the other thing around change, of course, is back to this: what you can control and what is outside of your control. So in, in the Arctic, um, I think that the whole idea about change is just how you're looking at it. If you're— if there's an acceptance that nothing is fixed. You know, in the Arctic, you don't camp in the same place every night. You're moving all the time. Nothing is really fixed. Everything is going to be in situ. Then what we can do is not have too high expectations. When we often become— and, you know, I've seen this in the Arctic— if you see, right, we're going to ski 12 miles today, and then the cloud comes down and somebody has an incident, or you can't find something in your sledge, and many things get in your way, you can't do 12 '12 miles,' then you feel disappointed. If you didn't expect to do 12 miles in the first place, if you said, 'We're going to go out and do our best today,' when those changes come along, then we can still find ways to maintain positivity. So I think there's often about what are the expectations we're setting on ourselves, what are the expectations that we're imagining other people have of us. So they're not always real, but we kind create that pressure because we think, oh, the boss is expecting this by tomorrow. Have you actually checked that? Have you had a negotiation or conversation? We're just somehow dreaming that up. So all of those things then can hinder us from actually being prepared to change. That, that's just simple thoughts that come to my mind in ways to again understand your mind and how you can get away from the interferences that get in the way of your mindset to move you forwards. I think it was John Whitmore had that wonderful phrase uh, performance equals potential minus interference. So if we want to achieve our potential, how do we reduce those interferences, be them practical or psychological?

Yeah, yeah, or real or made up. Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think what I loved about that is that whole idea of inspiration to pull people towards a change is so powerful. And you're right, that it's, it's something that I don't think organizations hook into enough. And yes, okay, it's hard. I always say to our clients, if they work in a healthcare setting where they're offering services or products that help people live a better life, that's a really, really easy way to tell the story, to explain the purpose of the organization in a way that motivates people. Because with the service that we offer, we're going to help more senior members of society be able to get out of their house and live better quality lives for longer. Well, God, who wouldn't want to be part of that? We're going to help more kids get into schools. Wow. Who wouldn't want to be part of that? I guess if you work in a bank or perhaps an insurance company or something like that, it's harder, but still there. And I remember back the chief marketing officer back in my days of working in AIB, one of the big banks here in Ireland. And he'd come from FMCG and he brought a slightly different mindset to bank marketing. And he said, we need to stop talking about selling mortgages. And we need to start talking about helping people to buy homes. And it's just that slight change in words, that slight change in kind of refocusing our thoughts that's so very incredibly powerful. Because if I'm sitting there doing mortgage processing, I'm just thinking, oh, another mortgage for somebody else. Or is this another home for somebody else? And that's quite powerful.

Absolutely. And you reminded me of another expedition I did in 1999, skiing across the Greenland ice cap. So 4 of on the expedition team, a couple of Norwegian— Norwegians, German, and myself. And at the time, I was most experienced, and I thought I was pretty fit and could keep up and take a quarter share of the weight of all our sledges. So off we went, and it became pretty obvious after a couple of days that the two Norwegians and the German were faster than me, and I was beginning to slow the team down. And I went through this whole range of emotions. First of all, well, you know, I'm the expert, how dare they go so fast. You know, it's their fault, not mine. And then into victim mode, started to cry. And then all that happened is my goggles froze, my, my tears froze, my goggles steamed up, and I couldn't see where I was going. So decided the victim wasn't the place to be either. And then I thought to myself, well, I'll just keep going every 5 minutes and just see how far I can get. Well, we got inside the tent at the end of that evening, nothing was said. And you know, in situations in organizations when kind of trouble is brewing and you know there's an issue that needs to be resolved but no one's talking about it. And the next day we get back out of the tent, we begin skiing, and the same thing's happening. The Norwegian, the fit one, is at the front and I'm at the back. And then he gets a muscle strain. So of course my immediate reaction was, yes, that's now going to slow him down, now we can go at my speed. But then I thought, well, that isn't really going to solve the problem. So we all stopped and we had this big conversation, and all the emotions came out first of all, which is what happens. And you had to let those out and stay with it and just keep listening. And then we all calmed down and said, right, how are we going to solve this problem? And we had many different options. And in the end, the Norwegian with the muscle strain said, look, Sue, give me some of the weight from your sledge. That will free you up to ski faster. It will slow me down with my muscle strain, and we'll find a more compromised speed of skiing. 'You know, Scott, I resisted that at first. It's like, no, no, I'm fine, I can do it.' And then I suddenly thought, 'You know what, if I accept that, I'm helping the entire team to succeed. It's a bigger purpose than just me.' And then I thought, 'Well, what's not to like about having a lighter sledge? Actually, this is the way to go.' And that's what we agreed upon. And for me, there's just that really strong lesson about recognizing that in— no, we're not good at everything. So that was a weakness for me. I had strengths in other areas, but actually, in putting my kind of trust in the bigger team mission, I could say, right, yes, this is the way to go and we can all succeed. So sometimes those sorts of scenarios, being open and honest, showing vulnerability, those can really inspire change in people as well.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. We spoke earlier about, and you touched off the kind of the 5 attributes for leaders to be successful. And we spoke a wee minute ago about curiosity, which I loved. I can't remember who it was, one of the famous painters who said that we're all born creative. All children are born creative. The challenge is keeping that creativity into adulthood. And I see the same thing with curiosity as well, that we're curious children. I was only taking the mickey out my sister last weekend for when she was little and she stuck a pair of scissors into a plug socket just to see what would happen. And of course we all kind of know what would happen and she certainly does now. But that curiosity just go, by the way, public health warning, I am not suggesting that listeners, any listeners stick their scissors in a plug socket just to clarify, I don't wanna get sued, thank you. But there is a piece around that lack of curiosity. I wonder what if, I don't think that as adults we say that enough. If I tried it this way, if I tried it that way, I wonder what would happen. Happens. So I loved, I loved that one. But you said there were 5, and I think the second of which is self-confidence. Um, talk to me a little bit about that.

Well, that's back to belief in your capabilities, knowing your strengths. So that doing the work on yourself, as we talked about earlier, Scott, I think the more we can come from a position of confidence and belief in our strengths, just as I knew that maybe my strength wasn't skiing as fast as everybody else, but I could make them laugh and keep the sense of humor up in the team at a different time when it was difficult, is having that confidence in what you're good at and just believe believing that— almost like bringing the mindset of experimentation, you know, when we're back in our old chemistry class and we're in a laboratory and we're experimenting. Experiments at school probably didn't work out every single time. So if we believe that, you know, what I do is good enough, I will just take the next step and see what happens, that can make a big difference. Rather than avoiding, as I said, the difficult conversation because, uh, you know, we're fearful about what might And that kind of leads me on to the third point of these five, which is really tolerance of risk and uncertainty. So, being able to focus on what we can control and accept that in other situations to let it go or see that we can't change everything, but we can just manage and control certain things.

Yeah, it's powerful. I always think that that self-confidence one is a real double-edged sword because we know that, you know, overconfidence Confidence can lead perhaps to a different place. I had a big birthday last weekend and a very old friend of mine was there. I hadn't seen her for years and we used to work together back in the mid-'90s. And she said to me, she looked me straight in the eye and she said, "It's so nice to see how you've grown into your confidence." And I just went, "Okay, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to take that as a compliment because I'm sure that's how it was meant. I'm sure it wasn't meant another way." But I probably was a bit overconfident when I was younger. You know, I didn't have the experience. So it is a bit of a double-edged sword, isn't it? How do you know when you're being over-self-confident?

Well, I think you gave us the answer there, Scott, isn't it? To have people around us that ground us, whether that's the colleague or the confidant in the workplace, whether it's a family member or a friend outside of the workplace. You know, they all, like a balloon string, it's like pulling that balloon back down to earth. And you know, without those external alerts, is also your own internal, um, awareness. So sometimes I think we can— we deep down know, but maybe we're taking a chance with something, but we just choose to ignore that alert. So the more we're in touch with actually noticing what's going on in our bodies, we can have a sense of whether we're a little— we're being— we're blagging it too much, perhaps.

Yeah, of course. And gut feel is gut. I mean, I, I'm a huge proponent of gut feel. If it doesn't feel right— and this is— I've been proven right on this more often than not, um, he says with super self-confidence, that, uh, you know, if it, if it doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. Uh, and I think that's something definitely worth listening to. Um, so not surprisingly, the fourth of your five is, is being action-oriented.

Yes. Yeah, well, I think that, that does speak for itself, is when the— when we get to a position of inaction, how can we find a way to either break down that big goal into small enough points so that you get through the next 5 minutes, or you take the first small step? And also, I, a lot these days here, here, my coaching clients often get— go from, um, one particular situation, a symptom or an issue, and then they catastrophize, as I would call it. So they say, well, if, if that person does that or doesn't do that, then that means that, and then that means that, and then I'm out of a job, and then I've got no money, and then I've got no home, and then, and then the world's ended. And all because of one little symptom. And to avoid that, avoid that catastrophizing, because what's happening there often is over— there's, there's thinking. So when we're high on thinking and using our kind of imagination sometimes, and our emotions are high, if you like, and we're low on action, that's what then leads to that over-rumination, catastrophizing. So the antidote, the medicine to high thinking and high emotion, is to take some sort of action, because the only thing that that will do will bring some learning, and it will enable us to feel back that we're in control. We've taken, we've taken some sort of action. So, you know, as I said earlier about, you know, just and look for the smallest, smallest step to take. If you're feeling stuck in something, just think about— and the step might be just write something down, it might be speak to somebody, it doesn't mean, you know, a world-changing event. And then the last point, the number 5, is about resilience. Because when you do take those steps, when you do encounter problems, what's your mindset? Are you thinking, well, I knew I never could do that in the first place, I don't know why I bothered, and you then are very self-critical? Or do you see it as a setback and something that just needs to be— as a problem to solve? So how can you get through that problem? How can you move on to the next step? So there's lots of great resources out there, aren't there? I'm sure you've done podcasts on resilience before to just help people to find a way to bounce back when they encounter disappointment or challenge.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. We, we were working with a client recently and they were talking about what, what amazing resilience their people had continued to have through the pandemic. And I said, well, that's really, really good. But I often see resilience as being a bit like an elastic band. And of course, you stretch it and you stretch it and you stretch it and you put it under increasing pressure until eventually the elastic band snaps. And you never know when that's going to be. And it hurts when it does. So, I think for organizations, it's about thinking about, yes, okay, people might be resilient, but we can't be relying on that that all the time. We can't be really using that because it is, you know, for many people, it is a finite resource because they get to the point where they go, right, you know, I've just had enough now. I've been, I think I've been quite resilient to date, and now I've just had enough. I'm done. And that's tough.

Yeah, absolutely. And maybe there's an element of bringing in self-care there, self-compassion. I was speaking to a coaching client this week about that, where they were feeling stressed about something. And I said, well, what are you doing in the day, in the week that you really you enjoy? When are you just taking time for yourself, whether it's to watch old movies, have a bath, go for a walk, chat to an old friend, have a laugh? Oh, I haven't really got time for that. I said, well, what difference would it make if you did? And, and, you know, and then, and then other people I've spoken to in the past when they have done that— like, one man hadn't played the guitar for years and he loved playing the guitar. And when he began to then take back up just a few hours a week playing the guitar, actually, it was a much better leader, because he was doing something for himself that was actually helping him to manage his energy and his resilience.

I think it's interesting. And it comes— and I think all of that is spot on. And it comes back to that awareness piece. And there are certainly days where I've gotten to the end of the day and thought that I just, you know what, I just want to leave the office, sit down, have my dinner, watch the telly and go to bed because I'm done. And there are also days where I finish at the end of the day and I go, I feel amazing. And I was like, that was a great day. And I've now gotten into— I've now built a habit of saying to myself, what was it that I did today that made me feel like this today that didn't make me feel like that yesterday? And I think, as you say, just being able to put a name on it or pin it to a board so that you can go and get it when you need to get it when you are having those bad days is so, so important. Kameer, we've covered a lot of ground and ice, about 350 miles worth in the past wee while. We're nearly at the end, but I have one last question, which I've kind of taken to asking guests recently because we do tend to, as I say, cover a lot in these episodes. And I think it's been absolutely brilliant and really practical. So, thank you for your insights. For people that are listening now, who are really thinking about how they can be more effective in their roles, particularly as leaders, what's the one piece of advice you would give them? Is there a silver bullet? Is there one thing that trumps all others, do you think?

Well, there isn't. I don't think there is no magic silver bullet. I think I would come back to inspiration. Inspiration. And I would think of— invite them to think about how are they utilizing inspiration as a leader. And maybe there's a way that they could generate that free energy in their people by them becoming more inspiring and also pulling out from their team those stories, those conversations, those people, so that they also shine and are inspiring. So it's not just about the leader being inspiring, it's about in a team context, how do you say, Scott really, you know, tell us a story about, you know, you love fishing at the weekends. Tell us about a time when you were fishing and what really made it exciting for you. And then Scott gets the floor, his eyes light up, and he starts talking about his passion. That in and of itself enthuses others in the team. Wow, he's really enthusiastic now! And we've given Scott the space, we've shone the light on him, and we've created the environment for him to shine. That's surviving. And that just takes the ability to ask great questions, to listen, and to believe in your team. So it's no magic bullet here, but just to think perhaps, how else, how much more could I use the power of inspiration to bring out the best in our team?

Brilliant, absolutely love that. What a great way to finish. Um, Sue, if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that? Where can they find you?

Well, I think all the links and of social media and so on are on my website, suestockdale.com.

Great stuff. Nice and simple. And we'll make sure we put a link to that in the show notes as well. So, listen, Sue, thanks a million for joining us today. Really, really appreciate you taking the time. I've loved every minute of this conversation.

Thank you, Scott. It's been a great time speaking with you today.

Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcasts, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.