123 | How to Avoid Culture-Killing DEI Blunders | Aleksandar Damchevski & Christiane Bisanzio

Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast, where I talk to leaders about how internal communications, engagement, and leadership all play a key role in creating amazing and successful cultures.

In D&I, everybody's doing and driving, but there is no roadmap where the other cars are. So I think we need to get to a way where we see the whole cars on the street to really compare. So it's about accountability and really measuring where you are.

Hello there and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Pleasure to have you here. Thanks for listening. A couple of quick housekeeping things as I always do. First of all, before we get into today's guests, if you are listening on Apple or some other platform that allows you to give us a 5-star rating, or 4 is also fine, and a little, just a little comment on the podcast, I'd really appreciate that. It does really help with getting the podcast out there a little wider and getting it out in front more people like you. So, that's really important. The second thing is just my usual thanks to our podcast sponsor and friend and partner Workvivo. We're going to be talking today about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I think that certainly from that perspective, making people feel included within the organization, building that sense of connection is really, really important. Much harder these days, potentially in the whole area of people working wherever they're working and that whole hybrid thing. So, if you're thinking about or having challenges around communications with people in your organization, organization. Workvivo.com is the place to go and have a little look, and you will hear more about them later on. So today's guests, Christiane Bizanzio and Alex Damchevsky, have written a book called The Other 364 Days. And I was really taken with that idea that, you know, when it comes to DEI, it's not all about the day, it's not all about Pride. What used to be Pride Day seemed to then become Pride Week, and then lots of people this year seem to be having Pride Month, or Father's Day or Mother's Day or LGBTQ+ Day or whatever day it is. It's about the other 364 days and how you create that sense of DEI within your culture the rest of the year. So, Christiane, Alex, hello there. As I always do, why don't we just let you guys kick off by telling us a little bit about each of you? And you know what? I'm going to go men first. I'm going to buck the trend. So, Alex, you tell us about you.

Hi Scott, thank you for having us on the podcast. We're very happy to be here. You already dived deep into the topic of the subject of the book, and I can tell that this will be a lovely conversation. As you said, my name is Alex Dymczewski. My pronouns are he/she/they as well, as I go into this journey of my gender expression as well. I am— I have a background in economics, digital, and HR. I've changed career and So let's say I've been able to be a chameleon in the corporate world for quite some time, and I found my place in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space. And I think I'm going to stay here for good. I come from Eastern Europe. You can say that I'm an immigrant. I grew up as gay in a more of a difficult society. And in a way, that's what brought me to have this career today, which gives me meaning of my life, whoever I work with.

Brilliant, great to see somebody whose role now is so clearly aligned with their purpose. So, you know, lovely to have you on, Alex. Thank you. Kristi.

Thank you, Scott, equally. Very happy to be here today, joining you in this podcast. So, I'm Kristi Bizanciu. By background, I am a lawyer. I did employment law, and that kind of led me to human resources. I spent 20 years in human resources, the first 10 purely global HR roles, Chief People Officer, and for the last 10 years as Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer. Definitely has been a passion like Alex, will always be my passion. I'm not gonna go away from this topic at all. Really, really looking forward to our exchange today. Live in Geneva, and, well, I identify as a feminist.

Thank you. So lovely to have you both on. Thanks so much for taking the time today. And I guess what's really interesting, Christy, as you just said there, having worked in HR for many, many, many years, you must have seen a huge amount of change in the DEI space and in the acceptance of that, the understanding of that. So I just wonder from your experience today, and we'll maybe start with you and then go on to Alex, what is your experience of where organizations are when it comes to DEI in the workplace today? Have we gone on the entire journey? Is there more to go? Is there good and bad? Where are organizations?

Well, the subtitle of our book is The Glass Half Full. So, Diversity, equity, inclusion, DEI is never a destination. It's always a journey. So this is never-ending. It never stops. You have new trends, new topics, new themes coming up, but the overall importance of DEI remains. So what I've seen is actually a quite dramatic change when it comes to where DEI was 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and today. And that is as well where it reports to within an organization. So this has moved up and up. So very often today it reports directly to the CEO or has a dotted line, or it is connected to the business. Some organizations, and we can get into that, still have it somewhere huddled away in talent management. But the importance when it comes to the role where it reports, also how much money you get when you work in D&I, has really shifted. Dramatically, dramatically over the last two decades, for sure, for sure. And I would also say glass half empty. There is a big churn, big turnover of chief diversity officers in particular right now in the United States because very often companies perceive you hire someone, you announce you have a chief diversity officer, and that means you're kind of done, your work is done. But that's actually when the 364 days come into play.

Yeah, for sure. We'll get more into that in a while. Thanks, Christy. Alex, what's your experience of DEI in the workplace today? What move have you seen?

On my side, and I kind of share these views in the book as well, I start the book and the prologue with the question, are we becoming more divided or more diverse? Because I have seen in this space that sometimes using identity politics and performative DEI can lead to maybe worse worse consequences than what we originally intended. Because when we, as organizations, when we try to do DEI only to tick the box, it might lead to worse results. So right now where I see the state of DEI and in, in the corporate world, world particularly, is that we see the consequences of this performative DEI that CEOs are not satisfied anymore with the results because there are no results. And then if you go back to why are there no results, it's because they did not put their money where their mouth is. For example, they did not hire a big team. They thought that just hiring, as Christie said, just one person who is the chief diversity officer, that this is going to do the trick. And they forget that the accountability falls with every single person in the organization, starting with the whole leadership team.

Okay, interesting. And I think what's really interesting about your point there, and I think actually to Christie's point as well about CDOs kind of moving around a lot, that when they land in the job, perhaps there isn't the team there, perhaps there isn't the belief there, perhaps it is a bit of lip service. And perhaps to your point there, Alex, you know, organizations aren't putting their money where their mouth is. And I guess from a business perspective, you know, there needs to be a business case for anything an organization does, whether that be a focus on engagement, whether it be a focus on culture, whether it be a focus on customer experience, or a focus on DEI. So from your experience, from your learned experiences of what you've heard as you've been researching this book, what is the business case for a strong focus on DEI?

I just want to take this answer a bit differently, Kristi, than what we usually do, because I know how aligned we are on this, but I would ask Scott a question. If you have a marketing expert right now on this podcast, Would you ask this marketing expert, what is the case for having a marketing department?

No, because I think people understand marketing more broadly. I don't think maybe there's an understanding of the impact that DEI can have within an organization and then therefore outside an organization. I think probably there's a gap in education. You know, I know what marketing is, I know what marketing does. You know, maybe listeners don't have that same understanding of a DEI function. So no, I probably wouldn't, but probably for that reason.

Yeah, so the case— we've been, Christine, in this space for so many years, myself as well. And we are almost getting a bit tired of explaining the case for— business case for diversity and inclusion because it's out there. There's so much science behind it. And it takes very little to get familiarized with the reason for diversity and inclusion. There are two reasons, right? We have the reasons of the heart and the mind. The mind is the business case where you do a 5-minute Google search as any person, you will be able to get a clear picture of what is the case of diversity and inclusion business-wise. And the reasons of the heart is that someone, anyone can relate to, you know, when we've all been in situations where we maybe felt like we don't fit in, we don't belong, we've got maybe a bit mistreated or some opportunities were cut from us or someone in our close friendship. So, sorry, I did not mean to kind of jump into you. I was just thinking in my head that we are being asked this question a lot, but I wanted to reverse it a bit because I don't want it to be a question anymore.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's hopefully we'll get to a point where it isn't. That'd be great, wouldn't it?

Yes.

Yeah. Kristi, any thoughts to add?

Well, we are very aligned, Alex and I. What I would say is not specifically going into the business case for the reasons Alex just mentioned. I would say there are 2 approaches to drive a strategy. One is to focus on the risk, the risk of not doing D&I properly, which is very much the US approach where you are faced with immense legal claims, millions and billions being paid out because of discrimination. I think Tesla is in the news right now. I mean, Google. So, so in the US, it's very much a risk function increasingly. And funny enough, there are insurance products now in the chief diversity and officers function to protect against blunder in the DEI space. So this is becoming a real product. Whereas, um, outside of the US, we are more focusing on the opportunity. And the opportunity is, as I think, quite obvious in marketing and sales. There's a lot of fun if you Google some cases where it went wrong, where a marketing campaign did not land with the consumer because it was exclusive. Barilla is one, Volkswagen is other examples. There are probably 20 that always keep coming up. So you can really get it wrong by not reaching out to your consumer at all. Needless to say, not attracting the right employees or the retention. So I'd really like to bring it to the level of what is the strategy? Are you approaching it via a risk, or are you approaching it as we do over here, more as an opportunity?

Yeah. And, and, you know, for me, if I look at it from an internal perspective, one of the huge opportunities has to be just a diversity of thought. I remember having Denis Doolan on who was previously the head of talent for Special Olympics globally. He's since gone on to work in a bank here in Ireland. But we were talking a lot about people with intellectual disabilities. And he said, "It's amazing if you put somebody with an intellectual disability into a marketing department and you ask them for feedback, they'll bloody well tell you unpolished what they think of your ad campaign." And I think that diversity of thinking is so, so critically important in organizations for exactly the reason you said there, Barilla, VW, who've just got it wrong because they haven't actually had that discussion before maybe going out to market.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Hi, I'm Klyna from Workvivo. When working away from the office, it's easy for your people to feel isolated and disconnected from your culture and each other. That's where we come in with our quick-to-deploy employee communications platform. It's all about ensuring that your people feel informed, engaged, and connected to your company culture, values, goals, and each other wherever they work from. For more, see workvivo.com.

We talked about the Chief Diversity Officer, and you're right. I mean, I'm seeing as well, and you said, you know, before we came on the call, there's about 120 of them now globally in the group that you were referencing. And, you know, it is getting a seat. I hate that term, seat at the top table, but I must think of something better than that. But of course, it's not that person's responsibility, the same way that culture isn't the responsibility of an HR director or managing expenses in an organization isn't the role of a CFO. So whose role is DEI? Whose role is it to make sure that we create diverse, equitable, and inclusive workplaces?

Yes, I can. I will go in. I'm sure that Christy will complement me further on this answer. It starts with the CEO and the leadership team. So, and in a way, there is this, we can call it an RC matrix or a matrix of responsibilities to see clearly who is responsible, who is accountable, etc. And it has to be taken, I say, seriously, but into the goals and performance appraisals, especially of senior leaders. Because once you said there is the inclusion targets to the performance of the senior leaders of business functions, then you know that, okay, at the end of the year, I'm really held accountable for this. Further down, it goes through, of course, line managers and different regions, but it has to start at the top with every leader. Usually in organizations, this is often done if you create what we call a DIAC, a Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Council. Where you select a certain number of people, leaders who are on the executive team, including the CEO, where the strategy is being reviewed, created, all the programs are being dived into. You create a link with the ERGs and directly with the people to combine and bring in more the lower levels of the organization directly to the top to create this link as a shadowboard, as ideas, as understanding and listening a bit more to the organization.

Yeah, interesting. And I think that, I mean, a word that comes up on this podcast all the time, Alex, is deliberate, about organizations being a little bit more deliberate about creating a culture which is aware of and implementing and making change happen around the areas of DEI, engagement, culture, whatever it might be, leadership. But it is about being more deliberate as an organization.

Yeah.

Kristi?

Next to writing books, I'm also teaching at some of prestigious universities, and it's become an MBA topic, DEI. I was surprised to find out. And just yesterday, I shared on the exact same question, CEO, leadership team, as Alex says, deliberate goals, measurable like any other business. I would also bring in the the employee resource groups that are really driving a lot of this. So it is similar to any business driver. It's the typical top-down, bottom-up. So you really need both and you need to work with, with these stakeholders. And we have a neat stakeholder mind map in the book, which is quite massive actually, which shows you all the levers to pull when, when you're driving a D&I strategy.

Yeah. And it's interesting, again, back to the point you made earlier, Alex, about marketing. A lot of that stuff that marketing does, like customer mapping or audience mapping, we don't often do internally. And actually, we talk to internal comms teams about it all the time. So, who are your customers? Have you made a pen picture of them? Who are you talking to? What message do they want to hear? How are we going to talk to them? How do we reach them? And we don't do that enough internally, do we? And that seems to be just sensible best practice.

Get your house in order first, as we like to say.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And I guess, you know, fundamentally, is it then about— and as Alex, you mentioned there about having it in objectives and having it in performance reviews— is a focus on DEI about behavior change in organizations then?

Absolutely. Absolutely. There's usually in organizations, you have these key values or what are the key leadership traits in a way, what traits are breeding the culture of an organization, if you try to exemplify it in a way, and traits which are promoting diversity and inclusion and inclusive leadership can easily be inserted into this, for example, to kind of concretize a bit more the behaviors, you know, like it's not just, oh, I'm an inclusive, I'm gay friendly, I'm an ally, but more to create specific behaviors that will justify that side.

Because saying I'm an ally means nothing because actually what people want is not words but actions.

Actions, signals to show that you are part of that bigger cause.

And what mistakes do you see organizations still making today? Because I presume there are some big blunders that they make. We've spoken about those external ones, but actually when you think about it internally, when it comes to, you know, well, we've done Pride Week, we're done with that for now, and we'll come back to it again next year. What mistakes are organizations making that are just tripping them up? What are you seeing from your experience and maybe the experience of other organizations?

This is one of my favorite topics, so I'm going to take this one first, and then Christie is going to add up. Because you mentioned pride, and I just a bit before I mentioned the phrase get your house in order. Many organizations, particularly for the LGBTQ+ aspect, but also for others, they, for example, would say, oh, we're gonna go to Pride, we're gonna put the big rainbow flags and show that we are an inclusive employer. And they forget to take care internally of their employees first. Have you reviewed all the policies? Are the behaviors in place? Have you taken care of the community? Does community feel visible or like like, yeah, they exist and we go with them to party. So the first mistake I would say, or same goes for International Women's Day, you know, it goes to the title of the book. On International Women's Day, we see this big celebration. So we create an event. We are shouting out loud that we care about this topic without doing the work internally first. So before going out there, get your house in order, I would say is one of the common mistakes that we see. The second one is related to a topic that now we call unfortunate bias, but it is unconscious bias. Because like this one, we see that just training is not enough, and particularly trainings about unconscious bias. The science has proven now that it doesn't work, and even in some cases it makes it, makes your biases even worse. Because you go to this training, you are okay, I'm aware that I have these biases. You go out and nothing changes in your brain. And there is a lot of, let's say, big budgets and money spent here on something that does not create an effective and efficient impact. Kristi, you want to add one or two mistakes more?

Mistakes and equally also kind of really thinking what I've seen and some made mistakes and others really turned this into a massive opportunity. So I would say D&I is an immense lever to drive culture change. And when you do it right, you create a lot of expectations in the organization. So a CEO that starts coming out with pretty strong, convincing, credible messages, let's say on gender equality or LGBT+ inclusion, what happens then as a ripple effect is that employees from these groups expect to see more, yeah, or expect to see the change that was in a way promised. And that is really where a stellar leader differentiates from somebody who's not, because it can be a mistake if you then don't deliver, because then you're not walking the talk. And then you have a lot more frustration than you would have had if you would have done nothing. But if you get that moment right, that you have great statements, you wanna drive cultural change, you wanna be more inclusive, and then you deliver, then it's amazing. But that's a fork in the road that I've seen gone wrong more often than not.

Yeah, and for me, that walking the talk, that acting with integrity, that doing what you say you'll do, that must be rife in this area, again, because of the other 364 days. And as Alex just said there, things like policies. So you talk the good game, on International Women's Day, but let's look at your exec team, which is 8 out of 10 men. Let's look at your board, which is 9 out of 10 men. Let's look at the trajectory of female employees within this organization who don't get above X grade generally, and then they leave. And of course, all that comes back to what Alex said, which is, well, is it actually baked into our policies and procedures and what it is we do around here?

And you know, to Abid, I would say own it up, as I use this word in my everyday language, own up where you are. If it is International Women's Day and you want to say something, go out there and say, yeah, there's still a lot more work that we need to do. Look at our board. I'm aware of this. We are working on this, but we see that we have progress. And this, just this message to be a bit more authentic and real to what is happening is going to create more change and give hope that you're going somewhere rather than just shouting out loud, oh, we are stronger, believe in this, and a politically correct message.

Yeah, yeah. And you know what, it's a really interesting point because we have done culture audits for clients and the results that come back on their culture audits have been really, really, really low. And you knew that anyway because you knew walking in there what the culture was like, but you've now got some numbers and some stats to be able to tell you in a graph what the— and everyone says, well, we can't go out and tell people that, like that's so bad. And my line to them always is, actually, If you don't tell them, you end up in a place where, well, they're hiding something from us. Actually, if you do tell them, and actually, Alex, to your point there, you put your hands up and say, you know what, we measured the culture, we know it's not great, we've now got it as fact that it's not great, we knew that already, but you know what we have to do now? We have to do something about it. And that first step, and I'm thinking of a client we worked with recently who I won't name, just the fact of putting those numbers up on screen, on a Zoom call, made everyone go, it just started to build that trust that was maybe not there over a number of years of just untrusting under a previous regime. But it just started to build that trust. I'm not saying I've got all the answers. What I'm saying is we've got some stats, we've got some numbers, and actually, we as a senior team have to do more. So, here's the plan. That is gold dust. And I think it's as relevant for culture as it is for DEI, International Women's Day, or any other element of business, isn't it?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. Alex, one thing you touched on there, unconscious bias, and I've been on unconscious bias training. Um, what I learned on that is that I don't have any, um, right. I thought it was really good, but I think like all training, and we've all done it, and I can't remember the— I don't remember that name of that curve. I must look it up because it's the second time this week that it's come into my head and I've not looked it up. But we kind of forget when we learn in training courses, we forget unless we apply it within a very short space of time, a few weeks, we forget it. So if it's not being applied, so when it comes to DEI, sorry, when it comes to unconscious bias or when it comes to some of the other mistakes that organizations are making, how do they fix them? How do they address them or how do they not make them in the first place?

Do you mean specifically on unconscious bias training or in general?

Well, let's talk about unconscious bias training first because Alex brought it up and then maybe more in general if you've got some thoughts.

So, I would strongly advise not to run any unconscious bias trainings because exactly as you say, Scott McInnes, everyone will leave the training knowing that they do have some unconscious bias. It's human nature, actually. We would not be alive if we wouldn't have that. Actually, we need these instincts to survive as well. But then what? Then what? And that's, that's, again, it leads to the other 364 days. So these trainings end where the work actually starts. And then we will probably now get really into nitty-gritty, because there are very different approaches how to implement something that really changes to get more women to the top. Here I would be mentioning sponsorship versus mentoring. That could be another hour-long conversation. When it comes to LGBT+ inclusion, Alex knows a lot more about that, but you very often have to start with awareness and I would say the consumer and the allies. So you have to have a strategy, but very actionable items underlying these 5 to 7— typically it's between 5 and 7 dimensions of D&I that you're working with.

So again, that whole idea of being very deliberate, very planned.

Extremely, extremely. Then really project management, I would say. Really good project management and managing KPIs as any business KPI.

Like any other transformation program would have. Alex?

On my side, I think I kind of just to add up on what Christie said, there are, and we really, really generously provide this in the book as well, there are resources and programs which we know are high impact per dimension. And all these are mentioned in the book. We can go to the specifics, but there are things that— so the book is structured in a way that at the start we debunk the myths, we expose the errors that you can and obstacles you can have on the way. And then we take you to the journey of each dimension and what are the proven most impactful strategies that you can have. And that is what, you know, it's not going to be, oh, I need not to do this mistake and one quick solution for everything. It's going to take some time, but it's more the dedication that you need. You see all these programs and you take a different route for each dimension in a way, having intersectionality on top of your mind.

Okay, interesting. And I presume that many of the solutions whether they be in your book or more widely, aren't rocket science. It's just organizations and people within, leaders actually doing them. Is that the case?

The selection we made is very deliberate on, as we say, we do not believe, we haven't experienced that unconscious bias trainings, for example, we just had that work, but we've seen what does work. So we've been very specific and deliberate in what we chose, because, I mean, if you just want to do actions, it's endless what you can do. And therefore, I would say the operating model that we are also introducing, which is really following what works, what doesn't work, and how to apply, is really driven by experience from working in the trenches.

Yeah, yeah, it's a lived experience.

Yes, yes.

Tell me, I think one thing that organizations is, again, something else that's really high on the organizational agenda is sustainability. ESG. I think that we've had ESG guests on here before. And when I put to them, what is the role of employees when it comes to ESG? The conversation kind of starts to slightly slow down. And for me, there was a huge role for employees, maybe not in the G and the governance side of things, but certainly in the environmental and social side of things. And I just wonder how a focus on DEI can contribute to that agenda. Agenda for organizations?

I'm really glad you asked the question when you had Chief Responsibility Officers. I would say give it, give it 2 to 5 years and we will have very different responses because the D&I really is the S, I would say mainly the S, the society and ESG. And I start seeing, seeing popping up when it comes to equality and equal opportunities that is really reflected, whether it's the employees but also society, education, whether it's education at university level or at schools. And really, as recently as this week— no, last week, sorry— we talked to a very big governmental body in Switzerland and they are driving ESG goals, but they don't know what to do with the S. So, and it's all around equal opportunity, equality when it comes to the education system. So I think these two, yeah, Chief Responsibility, Corporate Responsibility Officers, Chief Diversity Officers, they're working more and more hand in hand.

So it's the idea, and again, this comes up time and time again on the podcast, that it's not necessarily about doing more things, it's just about actually linking the things you're doing together just to show where those linkages exist to people and being very clear about that.

Yes, exactly, exactly. Not to reinvent the wheel, not working in silos, but sitting together. And it happens also within the organizations that you're sitting in the same board meetings presenting on similar topics. So this is an exciting area, I would say.

For sure. Alex, do you want to comment?

Well, just to add another example where we've seen that these two work together well, even before the ESG were— ESGs were kind of created. It's every organization now, a big one, is trying to— is producing a sustainability report, the annual sustainability report.. And, uh, we as D&I have had big, uh, inputs there and it's naturally being included. A report doesn't go out, a sustainability report doesn't go out without the D&I inputs and, and feedback. So it's, it's already happening inside organizations and now with the ESGs, the, the, it's going to flourish even more to see the intersect, uh, of this, um, Venn diagram.

Yeah. And it will really amplify those messages, I guess, cuz if investors are looking at ESG, um, indicators, then it's going to really amplify the message because suddenly it's important, more important.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, we're getting to the end of our conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time today. And I guess I'm going to come to each of you and just ask you a very last question, which I've asked all guests on the podcast for the last number of episodes. And it's this, just in 30 seconds, if there was one thing that organizations could do to create more diverse and inclusive workplaces, what would that one thing be? Christy, maybe start with you.

Yeah, accountability. And that is driven by have, have objective bodies look at how you're doing. So here I'm really talking about certification. So really having a benchmark because in D&I everybody is doing and driving, but there is no roadmap where the other cars are. So I think we need to get to a way where we see the whole cars on the street to really compare. So it's about accountability and really measuring where you are.

I cannot top that. It's such a good answer.

This is where you suddenly think, yeah, we should have spoken about this before we came on the podcast.

Exactly. So I kind of really applaud what Christie said. And for me, the accountability goes also to internally understand that it's not for one single person or a team to carry the burden of the Everyone has to take care inside their little backpack to make a change.

Brilliant stuff. Brilliant. Listen, you've got the book, you're both active on social media. What's the— if people want to find out more about you or get in touch, what's the best way to go about doing that? Kristi, do you want to start?

For me, it's LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn, Kristian Bisanzio, easy to find. Looking forward to connecting. DM me. I'm usually very responsive. So LinkedIn it is.

Brilliant. Brilliant.

Same, slide into my DMs on LinkedIn. That's the number one. For sure, I'm trying to develop my TikTok influence right now, but I'm not going to share my handle yet. So LinkedIn it is.

Brilliant stuff. Listen, both of you, I've really appreciated you taking the time today. Loved the conversation. Good luck with the book. I hope it goes well. And thank you very much for being here.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you for having us, Scott.

Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcast, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.