129 | The Eight Practices of Credible Leadership | Jenni Field

If you are in a position of leadership, you have to make time to lead. You can't say, I don't have time, because it is your job. Your job is also whatever task you might have to do, but your job is also to lead.

At Inspiring Change, we're here to help build work cultures that bring out the best in people. We created this podcast to share real stories and insights from people shaping better workplaces every day. So grab a cuppa, or pop in your earbuds wherever you are. Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast. We are excited to have you with us. As I always do at the very beginning of each of these podcast episodes, just a wee reminder that if you have literally 30 seconds to give us a little 5-star rating, hopefully, and a comment in whatever platform you are using to listen to us today, I'd really, really appreciate it. It does really help with getting the podcast out there. Our guest today is actually no stranger to this podcast. I believe this is her third visit, but I know we're going to have an amazing conversation. We've had Jenny on before, actually on her own and also with her cadre of calm-edged rebels, probably a couple of years ago. And if any of you remember Clubhouse, I think it was called, Jenny and I ran a room in Clubhouse during COVID which was great crack, where we talked about leadership and leadership and communications. Culture, and all those great things. She's back today because she has written a new book called "Nobody Believes You," exploring the world of credibility. And I think it's really pertinent actually, just having come away from this morning, a leadership development workshop I was running where we were going back through all of those things that we're asking of leaders all the time. You need to be credible and vulnerable and open and honest, and you need to lead people and you need to be authentic and you need to do it with stories and all of those things. And by the way, you have to do your job as well, because that's not actually your job, that people leadership bit. You have to do a job too on the side of all that stuff. So, I think that, I've heard them described as the marzipan layer. I've heard them described as the permafrost, but that middle manager layer is the one that's getting it from beneath and above. And it's an incredibly hard job, yet they are probably some of the most important people. You, if you're listening to this, listen to this, you are some of the most important people in organizations today. So, I'm really excited to have a chat with Jenny. I should probably say properly. I'll do, Jenny, I'll do the proper intro in a second. Okay, we'll get there. We will get there. It is Jenny Field. She is the CEO at Redefining Comms. She is also an author and keynote speaker. And I'm delighted to have her here today.

Hello, thank you for having me back.

You're very welcome. You keep doing good things. So, it's worth having you back to come and share your wisdom. For those who have been living perhaps in a cave for the past, uh, 5 or 10 years, um, why don't you kick off by telling us a little bit about you and what you do?

Sure. So, um, I have worked in communications for about 20 years. I set up Redefining Communications in 2017, and before that I was communications director, global head of comms, uh, in various different industries. And, uh, I'm really passionate about organizational communication. I'm passionate about the fact that if everyone can communicate well, then the workplace is a much better place. So that's where a lot of my work comes from. It's where my first book came from, which is about influential internal communication. It's where my research has come from in terms of looking at deskless workers. How do we communicate better with them? What's the role of line managers in organizations? And more recently, what is it that makes a leader worth following? What is it that makes someone credible? And all of that for me links into communication and behaviors and those sorts of things. So that's what I'm really passionate about. That's what drives me. And I just talk about it a lot. I talk about it in books, I talk about it on my own podcast, on podcasts with you. And I spend a lot of time working with clients, working with teams, helping them go from chaos to calm, which is what I talk a lot about in terms of getting to that root cause of what's causing that organizational chaos and how we can fix it through communication.

Brilliant. So we both touched on credibility there. What was it about that that made you write this book, or Were you just going down the route of doing some research and credibility came up as the theme and that's what drove the book? Where, where did the book come from? Why write the book?

So the book came from about 5 years of thinking, research, reading from, from me. So about 2019, I went to an event in Canada and there was some conversations there about people being authentic versus people being genuine, uh, and the difference between that and, and whether or not we wanted people to be authentic. And that's where things started for me because Authentic for me doesn't sit right from a leadership perspective. And we talk a lot about leaders needing to be authentic, but I don't think that's right. I think when you're in a position of power, if you are being asked to be authentic, you can easily weaponize that and you can show up very authentically, and that can sometimes not be in the best way when you are leading other people. So I started to have a look at authenticity. The pandemic hit in 2020. And, uh, as you said in the intro, leaders were being sort of bombarded with have more empathy, be more human, you know, have, be more authentic, be your whole self, all of these things. And so I started to look more at those things cuz they're just big words. You know, you say to somebody, have more empathy or be more vulnerable. That doesn't really tell me what to do. I don't really know what that means. So I started to look at those and read more about them, and then I came up with sort of 9 things that led to somebody being credible. Because actually in all of that reading, it was credibility that I was coming back to. We want a leader to be credible because that encompasses so many of these things that we talk about, but that's ultimately what we're looking for. You need to be credible so that I believe you, so that I follow you. So I came up with 9 traits as I saw them then, which I wanted to go and test, and that was where the research came from. So I tested these with leaders and then separately with followers. To see what people thought of them, how they ranked them. I asked followers why they followed certain leaders and what it was. And that's what led me to the 8 Practices of Credible Leadership, was sort of bringing together that reading, that thinking, and then that final piece of research to sort of bring it all together, um, into the book.

Nice. And that research particularly, once you'd identified what those 9 traits were and you went out to test them, how did you do that and who was it with and how, how far did that research go?

So we just did it online and we sent the survey out to different, uh, on using social media, email lists, all those kind of things, asking anyone in a, in a leadership role and anyone that's following a leader. It doesn't matter what industry you were in. And we asked people where they were in terms of their geography. So we know that it was, um, fairly global. I mean, it was, it was more dominant in the UK 'cause that's just a lot of where my audience is. But we did have people in, in most of the different, um, markets. And then we also looked at age and gender and, uh, and various other demographics as well, because I really wanted to look at whether men and women felt differently about the traits. That's what I was also looking at. And so that's what we did. It was just purely online. And I did, you know, in true research-want-to-be-a-perfectionist style, thought maybe I can then take this and do roundtables and have discussions and conversations, but it would just have gone on and on and on and on and on. And I did debate, do I do a PhD or do I do a book? And I was almost trying to do both things. So I stopped at the research to do the book. And it's to be almost the start of that conversation, to get people thinking about it.

And what's really nice is that just because the book is now written, it doesn't stop you doing those things. You could still go out and you could build on the book with roundtables or a PhD or discussion forums or whatever, building on where you've gotten to already.

Yeah, I think that's the, what I love about it is it's based on reading and research and insight, but for me it's a conversation. And having spoken about it now since it's been published, there's always a discussion, you know, which one of the 8 is more important? Which one should people build more of? Which is the main one you think? Who demonstrates them all? Like all those, it's starting that conversation. And in a post-COVID world, leadership has to be different. And I think that's where I got to when I was reading so many of the leadership books. Books about trust, books about empathy, books about credible leadership, all those things, they weren't built for a workplace or a society that had been through a global pandemic. And to lead after that large global societal shift is different. And so we have to reimagine what leadership is like now.

I think that's a really good point. And it's a drum that I'm banging all the time. What we did before COVID how we led before COVID when people were in the room, 5 days a week, 40 or 50 hours a week. That doesn't work in the context of how we're working today, does it?

No, no, because people need different things now, and what we value is different now, and what we need to feel valued and respected and the things that are important are different. It's probably the biggest global shift we will ever see in our lifetime, and we have to We have to respect that and we have to change and adapt with it. And there are things that, you know, people are talking more about, we need to go back to the office and that's all happening, been happening for a while. And that isn't, that was expected. You know, I was like, it'll go back, it'll go back to people needing to be in the office, which there is some, you know, science behind doing that. And I understand that, but it still needs to be different. You still need to lead differently. You still need to communicate differently with technology and all the other things that have shifted.

Okay, great. You've talked about the 8 practices that formed the book. I think it probably makes sense maybe to bring listeners through each of the 8, and maybe we can talk through them if that makes the most sense. And then if we want to go back to a couple, we can do. But let's just start off with going through the 8. Maybe give us a bit of background on each one.

Sure. So I'll do them in alphabetical order just so that people don't feel like one's more important than the other, and that's the easiest way to do it. So in the book, I go through the 8, and then there's sort of 3 subset of words underneath each one, and then at the end I talk about what happens if you're missing one of those. I'm not going to go into all of that today because we haven't got time, it's about a 40-minute keynote, so, um, but the first one is capable, so that's, uh, you having kind of knowledge of your industry or your role and you're demonstrating your capability, um, to your team and those that you lead. The second one is empathy, and that's about believing someone else's lived experience regardless of your own. It's not about being in someone else's shoes, it's about believing someone else. So that's about sort of listening without judgment, making sure people feel heard, all of those things. So care, compassion, all of that is about empathy. Then we have integrity, which is always my favorite because it's the one that everybody believes they have but often don't. Um, and, uh, and integrity is all about keeping your word, uh, being genuine, being accountable, Very important. And then we get to— oh, what do we get to after I? I want to say supportive.

I'm going with likable.

Oh, thank you. It is my book, uh, likable. So likable is the one that, uh, people really get a bit uncomfortable in because we all want to be liked. It's innate in us as human beings, um, but likable and being liked are different. So you have to kind of pull that apart in a leadership role. Because you won't be liked by everybody, it's impossible, and nor should you be. And that's because you have to make important decisions, but you have to be likeable, which is about being lighthearted, having charisma, and being agreeable. So nice to be around, those sorts of things. Then I think we can go to supportive. He's gonna tell me I've got to go somewhere else now. No, he's nodding. Supportive. And this is the one that kind of came up really highly in the research. It wasn't in my original 9, but being supportive is about being inclusive, it's about being quite humble, and it's about creating safe spaces for people. And supportive comes up really highly for people that are following leaders. Then unsurprisingly, we have trustworthy. So, not new, it's been a, been something leaders need to focus on for a while. I know it's a topic in this podcast season for you as well, so it's really important that we focus in on that. If you don't have trust, you get disengagement. So it's really important that that's being looked at inside organizations. And trust for a modern leader includes things like reliability, and that's a bit linked to COVID because of the reliability we had on others. So to trust you, I have to rely on you. So it also includes openness, transparency, honesty, but reliability is also important. Um, then we have the last two. So being visionary, uh, and this isn't about being a visionary leader like the Steve Jobs of this world. Uh, we can't all be that, that would be exhausting for everybody everywhere. It's about having a vision, and if you have the visionary practice, you can communicate well, you have a passion for what you're doing, and you inspire others as well. So it's really important. If you're lacking that, you'll just get apathy from your team and they just won't move forward. And then the last one is vulnerable, and this is one that has been talked about a lot, and this includes things like being open, being human, being courageous. All of that links very closely with vulnerability, but important Ultimately, vulnerability is about finding that balance between being personal but not intimate, and it's also about establishing connection. So we want to be vulnerable to create connection with those that we lead. We're not just vulnerable for vulnerable's sake, and that's an important distinction in there. So those are the 8, which I rattled off perfectly without any blip in the middle. Nailed it.

Beautiful. Without a big nod from this end that people can't see if they're listening. If you're watching the video version of this podcast, you'll just see me with a massive noddy head in the background. There's a couple that really struck me. I think one of the first ones, which was near the end, was vision. And I think that idea of a leader having a vision, and I have a very long-held belief that leaders should be creating followership with their people. And if we don't know where we're going, if we don't have that vision, and I don't think it's a kind of a prophet prophesizing type of vision of the future, but it's just a Where are we going as a team? What's our vision as a team? And how does that fit in perhaps to the overall vision of the organization? And the other two that struck me were that idea of likable, of being likable, but not necessarily being liked all the time. That really resonated. But I think it also sits cheek by jowl with vulnerability, being personable, but not intimate. I think those two sit beautifully together.

Yeah. And I think that's the beauty of all of the 8, because you have to have elements of all of them to be someone people will follow. If you just focused on likability, you are getting into con artist territory, because they don't have any of the others, but people will follow them for a while because they've got charisma, they're lighthearted, they're nice to be around, but eventually you realize they're not capable, they don't really know where they're going. All of those things unravel, which is why it doesn't last very long if you just focus on that. But you are right, they all, you know, you could, you can pick any of the 8 really, and they all sort of neatly fit together because you, you sort of almost can't have one without the other, or you need to bring some of them together. And it's also really subjective. So in some cultures, in some teams, you have to really figure out what people need in order to follow you. So for some people, they might need to see your capability, more than anything else in order to believe you and follow you. In some places, they might need to see that you are really supportive, and that might be more important. So, this is where it's about getting to know your team. And if you can't do that because you run a huge organization, then it's about looking at your processes and procedures in your culture to make sure that they demonstrate all of those things in your ways of working. Mm.

But equally, I mean, even if you run a very big organization, you should be able to be, be credible for your direct team or the top 50, if you're the CEO, for example, And in doing that, that should by extension, hopefully the ripple effect, make you credible to much of the rest of the organization.

Yes, totally. The challenge with leadership teams at the, um, sometimes is that you are, you have a knock-on effect, um, or a domino effect of what other leaders are doing. So if you're in a senior leadership team, you have to, the alignment of that team is really important because if one person in that team isn't credible, then it, it does have a bit of an impact on everybody else. And we have to bear that in mind.

The bit I like about the 8 practices, and I heard it described once, a similar model, as a bit like a mixing desk in a music studio, that for every single individual, in order to be actually authentically credible, perhaps you're going to have to turn up different ones to different levels depending on A, who you are. And because if you're coming out bouncing around like Zebedee, and you're not that person, then people are going to go, "Oh, has he just read a new book? Has she just read a new book?" And it does make you wonder and it's not credible. And I think then you lose face and I think then you lose credibility. So, I think there's probably that piece, but also I think you're absolutely spot on. It's about reading the room. Again, something else we only spoke about this morning on that leadership course, reading the room to see what it is people want, what people need, and what the context is that you're operating in.

Context is everything because if you're going through organizational change, for example, which so many people are, you, you know, things like being likable, you know, need to be in there, but you probably don't need to worry too if it's change that has to happen, right? We can get drawn into this, there should be conversation and all, but sometimes change has to happen and it does feel like you're being done to because it's a change that the organization has to make and that decision has been made. But that's where you can sort of dial up that supportive and the vulnerable and the vision. So there's that clarity around communication. You are supporting people, you are really demonstrating all of those things that make you supportive. You're being inclusive, you're creating safe spaces. All— so it's, it's the context is really important. But you do need, you know, regardless, you need to work on this all the time. And I think that's what leaders sometimes forget is that you are in a position of power. And I talk about power quite a lot throughout the book, and therefore you have a duty to show up as a credible leader all the time. And that's not to the detriment of your wellbeing or anything like that, but you have a duty to show up so that then when something does need to change or there is something that is different and you want them to follow you in a different direction, you've kind of got enough credits in the bank that mean that people will follow you. And that's why it's important that it's work we're doing sort of continuously.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. I've got a sense that credibility is perhaps relative and that it can, to your point there, that it can actually change. Maybe what, back to that mixing desk analogy, depending on the context, what's going on, new team members, where they are, that you might have to choose a slightly different mix of those 8 things depending on, depending on what's going on, depending on what you're doing, depending on what you need to get done. Is that fair?

Yeah, totally. And it also depends on the, on the person that, you know, and the people in your team, because some people in that team might not like, you know, not, not like you, and they might not find you very likable. Um, but that might not stop— that might be okay for them because what's important to them is that they know you're capable and you have integrity. So they might not be that fussed about the fact that they don't really like being around you, but they will still follow you because those two things are more important to them based on their values backgrounds, beliefs, whatever it is. So it's knowing that, and it's spending the time to get to know the people that you lead in order to know what they need to follow you. And that's ultimately what you need. You need them to come with you wherever you are going. And so you have to spend that time to get to know them.

Yeah. Interesting. Do you think you have to have, through your research or through discussions since, or even through writing the book, do you need to have all 8, even to a tiny degree, to be credible? Yes.

Okay, I mean, that felt very abrupt, didn't it?

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not panicking and looking through the list going, Jesus, what ones do I not have?

Well, I have a handy credibility gap assessment tool you can take, Scott. Excellent.

We'll put it, we'll put a link to that in the show notes.

But it's, uh, and that's free for people to do because it's— there will be certain ones that you do need to work on, you know. And I know for me, like, I know myself quite well and I'm quite aware of the things that I can, that I can often need to dial up. And empathy for me is, because I'm very task-focused as a person, so empathy and being supportive aren't naturally high traits for me as a leader because I'm focused on the task that we're doing, um, rather than other stuff. So I've had to learn those skills. And I say this in the book, like, all of these are things we can learn and build. There's nothing in here that you can't You just have to put the effort in. So I have surrounded myself with people who have more of those things, and I've learned, I've learned, you know, what I need to do and that it's important and to slow down and to take the time and all those things that we talk about. But that comes from being self-aware and we have to do that work on ourselves as leaders as well.

Yeah. How do, again, with something we spoke about this morning on that course I was teaching, can you, can you teach self-awareness? Can you teach somebody to be more self-aware, do you think?

So I read this somewhere and I can't think where it was now. And you can, but I think it's all to do with your mindset. And one of the things that I talk about at the end of the book was an interview that I did with a mindset coach, a guy called Christian Baker. And he spent some time with me because he does a lot of work around mindset and working with athletes and leaders. And I was saying to him, why do some people read all the books, go to all the courses, nod along when we talk about stuff, and then nothing changes? How does that happen? And that for me is linked to self-awareness, because when I've had to give feedback to leaders to say, look, the problem is you just don't have any integrity, which never goes down well. And it's like I've really punched them in the face because they completely, they just cannot see it. And when I was talking to Christian, he was saying it's because quite a lot of the time people will read the books and do the course without really thinking about why they're doing it and without intention. And I think that self-awareness can come from having very clear intention about what you're doing, um, and being okay with kind of opening up those layers and self-questioning and criticizing. It all links into self-esteem and confidence as well, um, and, and discovering more about yourself and being okay with the fact— like, I'm okay saying I'm I'm a bit lower in this, but I know why I am because I've understood it through doing things like DISC and other things like that. And I've, you know, I've made, you know, I've learned. And that's— you have to do the work.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, I think the funny thing about self-awareness is that you've got to be aware of it, which is— yeah, it sounds kind of odd, doesn't it?

Otherwise people like me just come in and go, you're just not, you're just not very credible, or you don't have any integrity. And it never goes down well. I did it with a team recently. I was working with a and all the feedback was they're just not credible as a team. And that's a really hard message to deliver, but there's no way to kind of, I don't really sugarcoat that, like, this is what we've got to work on. And it just, yeah, really didn't go down well. They just, I think they changed the report in the end. They just, you know, weren't happy with it. But it's, that sort of stuff is the hard stuff that we have to, and we've all had that, right? I've had feedback in my career where people have said, you know, something, and I've been absolutely like gutted and can't believe it and didn't see it coming at all. And then went in and, because I'm very task-focused, well, let's find out why and what's happened and how have I got here and what can I do to change it. And that's growth mindset stuff, you know, that's, that's that sort of work really.

And I think touching on growth mindset, I, you know, for me, I did a lot of work in customer service years and years and years ago, and we used to always say to clients, feedback is a gift. If you don't know, if you don't know that something isn't firing quite right, you can't fix it. My kids, if we go to a restaurant and something isn't right with my meal and I call over the waiter, my kids are literally putting, probably, probably actually putting their heads in their hands and going, oh my God, not again. If you don't tell them, they can't fix it. So it's actually coming from a place of goodness. It's coming from a place of respect. It's coming from a place of wanting to help them to get better.

Yes, but they have to know that. And I think sometimes people think you're being a feedback to be a critic, not giving feedback to be a coach. And finding that balance is tricky. And I think sometimes that depends on your relationship and how you set that up. But I'm like you, I'll always— I checked out of a hotel the other day and they said, was everything okay? And I was like, oh, this was broken and this didn't work. And I was like, it was fine, but if I don't tell you, someone else will be really annoyed. And I'd rather just tell you so that you know for next time. But it's not a big deal. But we live in the world of feedback and growth and communication. So it's quite normal for us.

It's kind of— we're hardwired to just blurt out feedback randomly. So listen, tell me this. So if we, if we, as we said earlier on, if you need to have all 8, right? Who has all 8? Because that seems— that list seems like a big ask. So who has all 8?

So it's a really good question. And I've been asked this question a few times. So I've done a bit of work to have a look at 'Who has all 8?' And the first answer that came up, which was actually someone in the audience who said it at an event I was speaking at, was David Attenborough, who has all 8. And then I had a little look at a few others and it's not— I was going to say it's not normal people. So Nelson Mandela comes up as someone who demonstrates all 8. I suppose the most normal person would be Howard Schultz, who founded Starbucks. There's a bit of I need to look at that a bit more, but that's coming out as a potential person. So these are people that people follow, right? These are really groundbreaking, incredible people, um, but they have probably different elements of the 8 in different, um, in different levels, if that makes sense. So someone like David Attenborough, for example, he— his capability is what people kind of follow him, like he's so knowledgeable, he knows everything. He doesn't need to, he's supportive. I've got no idea, I don't really know that, but there's so many other bits. His vision is very clear. He's got a lot of courage, so that vulnerability is there. He puts himself in very vulnerable situations. So you start to look at how it sort of plays out, but there's other bits that might not be there so much for him, but the other ones are so high that they kind of offset that a bit. So yeah, I thought he was an excellent example. So thank you to Adwaita Patel for shouting that out at the event I was speaking at.

Another former guest. Goodness me. Yeah, I love that. I can imagine that he would be likable as well, that he'd be the kind of person that if you met him in an airport lounge or on a train station or you were sitting beside him on the bus, not that I'm sure he gets the bus, but I'm sure he could have a chat with you and be absolutely lovely.

Exactly. Just nice to be around. I need my friends to like me. I don't need my colleagues necessarily to feel that level of likeness. But yeah, I felt the same. Perfectly fine to be around.

Yeah. Did you get any sense from when you were doing the research or in conversations since about whether there is a most important one of the 8? Is there kind of a best among equals? And if there is, which one is it and why?

The visionary one for me, because I think you can bring some of the others alongside that. But like you were saying earlier, some of them sort of sit next to each other. But because vision, the visionary practice, uh, when it's missing, you get apathy. And we don't want apathy in organizations at all. We want people to be moving forward. So if you've got that, you've got movement, and that's what we want. We want that pace, that movement, that momentum, that productivity. If you don't have that, that's what will stop. And I think that's the most important. And yes, it includes communication skills, passion, and being inspiring. But those are fundamental really for people to follow you, to know why they're doing it. So that's the one for me that's most important because I think it, and, and history kind of tells us this, if you look even at, you know, political things from years ago, people will follow a vision that's more emotive, more emotional. And that's what a vision is. It's always like a story. It's where we're going. There's something in it and, and we make decisions based on our emotions. So we will follow that more. More than sort of logic, and we will make those decisions based on that. So that's where I think it's more— it's the most powerful. But that said, the research definitely shows supportive as being like the top. So supportive, trustworthy, integrity— there was sort of the three that came out at the top, and supportive was, was right up there.

Okay, that visionary piece is really nice because it ties in with what you and I would talk to leaders about a lot, which is, is the power of storytelling. Um, because a vision isn't You know, we want to sell 10 million more widgets. Good God. It is in some organizations, terrifyingly, but it's kind of not. If you really want to paint a picture, then you've actually got to paint a picture in words and in emotion. And you've got to be talking to people's hearts and heads. I don't think it's enough just to talk to the emotional side of our beings, but, you know, it needs that bit of both. But certainly vision sits right in there.

Yeah, totally. And I think It's easy to feel like I've got like a bias towards that one, but I've really, I've been asked this question quite a few times and I think I, you know, and, and in different cultures and different places there would be different things. Like certainly in organizations that are more hierarchical, um, you know, capability would possibly come out as being more important, um, because of the, you know, maybe if it was military or such, do you know what I mean? So there might be different things that lend themselves to that followership in different contexts and environments, which we touched on before, but in the round. Visionary for me is the one.

Back to something we spoke about earlier, as we kind of get towards the end of this, and it feels like we're coming full circle, which is nice. It comes back to something I said earlier on about us asking leaders to do lots of things, to be lots of things. You've listed 8 of them out in the book. I added on a few more at the top, and you have done since. They're so busy. They're under so much pressure, the cost cutting, you know, resources, changing context, flexible working, you name it. They're just getting the whole shooting match thrown at them. How can organizations, do you think, best support their leaders in trying to live up to this seemingly endless list of asks that we're putting in front of them all the time?

So, I think this is sort of the crux of the book because I wanted to write something that was practical. And so in each of the chapters in the book, I talk about things you can practically do to do this, uh, and build them because that's the important thing. It, it's not asking people to do loads of things. And that's what happens if you just list all those words. You go, I don't know how to do this. But actually, if you sit down and say, actually, if I want to build more empathy, cause then I'm not so good at it, then I need to make sure that I'm really listening and I'm present when my, when I'm with my team. Right? That's not taking any extra time. That's just being more mindful and intentional about the time that you do have. And I think that's ultimately what I'm asking leaders to do is when you are with your team, just be more intentional and think about these things in a way that is front of mind and with the person that you are leading as the most important thing that you are doing at that time. You know, because if you're turning up to meetings late, if you're doing other things on your phone while you're in there, what, you know, all those things signal that you are not interested and not supportive and that you haven't got any empathy. So it's understanding all of those little sort of microcommunication things that you are doing and the impact they have. So I'm not asking people to have more time, I'm just asking them to be more intentional with it. But I think what we have to look at from organizations as a whole is If you are in a position of leadership, you have to make time to lead. And you can't say, I don't have time, because it is your job. Your job is also whatever task you might have to do, but your job is also to lead. And that has to have an element of priority in your time. And it's easy not to. It's easy to not do that because there's something else I need to do. But if it's important to you that they, that your team are delivering what you need them to deliver, and it's important that we are doing all these things to achieve X, Y, Z, then you'll do it. If you are not clear as a leader on where you are going, then you won't prioritize it because you won't be that bothered. But I saw a quote this morning which really stopped me on my scrolling of Instagram, and it said, if you are too big to serve, then you are too small to lead. And I just love it because it just sums up exactly what we are trying to say. And I think you have to make the time. And I always say to people, you're not busy, you're just prioritizing other things. And as uncomfortable as that is, that is what you're doing. But that's why you've gotta get practical. So if someone's coming to you as a leader and saying, you need to be more vulnerable, then ask them what that means. I don't know what that means. What are you asking me to do? And as I say to people that are asking this of leaders, say to them, we need to find out how we can build a connection with this group. So what do we think we could do to build that connection between you and them? Like, use other words that actually allow for practical outcomes rather than just big buzzwords that everybody's using.

Love that. Give me that. Give me that quote again.

Knew you were gonna ask me again. I've just put it down. Uh, if you are too big to serve, then you are too small to lead.

Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Um, listen, we're outta time. As usual, I've really enjoyed the conversation. Before we go, where can people get the book? Where can they get the diagnostic? Where can they find you? All of that stuff. Tell us, tell us all these things.

So you can buy, you can buy the book in paperback format from Amazon and any other online retailer. You can buy a hardback signed edition just from me. And if you go to redefiningcomms.com, there's a books tab at the top and you can get more information there. It can also take you off to the credibility assessment And see, look, there is your signed book.

It gets to look like this. Yep, there you go.

But it's a good size. If you're watching the video, Scott's got it in his hands.

I love it, I love it.

Small, thin, I love it. Small, compact. People have read it on the train from London to Leeds and read the whole thing because I didn't want to take up a lot of people's time. It's a, it's a deliberately sort of quick read. So yeah, the hardback is not a big hardback. I think people have been a bit scared by that.

Yeah, love it. Jenny, you are a joy to have on the podcast all the time. I'm sure you'll be back again. And until then, I shall wish you well and say goodbye.

And you, thank you for having me.

Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcasts, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.