130 | From Employee to Owner: The Business of Coffee & Culture

All of the stuff that I would put down as my greatest achievements in life have come from care because I really, really care enough. So why can't I selfishly go to work every day and do stuff I care about? Because I promise you now, if I can build that existence, then I'm going to do great work.

At Inspiring Change, we're here to help build work cultures that bring out the best in people. We created this podcast to share real stories and insights from people shaping better workplaces every day. So grab a cuppa or pop in your earbuds wherever you are. Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast. We're excited to have you with us. I really like going back through our archives. We've done about 125 episodes now, and I love going back through the archives and getting back to guests that we've had on before to find out what's been going on since, what's been happening with their culture, what's been happening in their organizations, what's changed, and how have they managed to handle, um, that change from a people perspective. And one of the people that I loved chatting to back in July 2021, it was episode 76, if you want to go back and have a listen, was Jonathan Reed, who wasn't the CEO of Paddy Scott's Coffee back then, but is the CEO of Paddy Scott's now. And I'm really looking forward to hearing what's been going on for the past 3 years. So Jonathan, good morning.

Hey, good to see you. Thank you for having me back on. It's nice to have the opportunity to maybe talk some more and answer some of your great questions beyond 3 years, I guess.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's been a while. So listen, for those people, shame on them, that haven't listened to our podcast from a couple of years ago, why don't you give us the quick 2 minutes on you and what you do? Introduce yourself to us.

Sure. So John Reed, based in the UK and the CEO of a lovely company called Paddy and Scott Coffee. We're based in Suffolk, just on the East Coast, and we're forging this path to try and really build a business and grow a business that puts people at the heart of it, but also a business that uses our commerce to help humanity flourish. So when we last spoke in 2021, I was an employee of the business and I still am, but now I'm also the proud owner of the business having gone through an MBO. That concluded on the 12th of January this year at 6:32 in the evening. It's a time and a date that I will have ever etched in my brain. So we've had some fun since we last spoke, Scott, and I think part of the reason for the change of moving from a sort of employee to the owner of the business was really about how do we safeguard and cherish what we built? Because at the time we'd had some advances from larger companies, some PLCs that were looking to acquire the business, and it just didn't feel right. So we kind of came out fighting and put a deal together, ourselves, myself and my colleagues that we took to make that happen. So yeah, it's been a fun couple of years since we last spoke. We're still all about coffee, we're still about people, and we're all about making sure our business can support and add ambition to the communities that we work with around the world, places like Kenya, Brazil and those nations that provide our coffee. So it's a business that I'm very proud of. And I suppose my career started in hospitality many, many moons ago where I wanted to be a hotel general manager. And we're still deeply entranced in that world of hospitality. And we think there's a lot that can be achieved with a humble cup of coffee. And we're pretty thankful that we're able to make a lot of things happen just with that cup of coffee. So it's a good place to be.

Brilliant, brilliant. We had a fairly candid conversation while we were thinking about this episode of the podcast, John, and you talked fairly candidly to me about the process of that MBO and the impact that had on you as a leader. Tell us a little bit about that.

I mean, I'd never gone through something like an MBO before. I'd never had any ambition really to run a business, to own a business, or really to be an entrepreneur until I kind of figured out what it was, what it meant, and the potential opportunity that came our way. So I think, I mean, in summary, going through that process was just exhausting. Taking a business, um, and the context I suppose is that, um, let's say 2 years ago, Paddington Scott's Coffee as a coffee business in the UK was, was doing really well. Uh, I'd, I'd been there for 5, 6 years, um, I'd worked really hard, rebuilt a business that needed a lot of work along with my colleagues. We were really forging our path and doing some quite dynamic things in a good way. And sometimes when you're doing things differently and you're a little bit noisy and you're having some success, people find you. And we were found by a number of potential acquiring organizations that showed an interest. And they wanted a piece of the pie and they came to the founder then, Scott, and said, okay, we're interested in buying your business. What does that look like? Is there an opportunity for a conversation to be had? And I think Scott is the sole owner of the business really at the time was quite open to it. So some of those conversations became more advanced. And then myself and my colleague Zoe as the management team, got involved and it was quite flattering. And we had the opportunity to join much bigger businesses and maybe play a bigger part in a bigger business that was more globally focused and others as well that were interested. And then we kind of reflected and we had a very honest conversation with each other and we said, is this what we want? Are we happy? Placing our careers in the hands of other people? And are we happy to take a risk that says everything we've done over the past few years to rebuild this business and turn into something we're really proud of, are we happy to give those keys to somebody else? And we came back to the answer that said, well, why should we keep doing this for somebody else? Why should we be working this hard for someone else's gain? Wouldn't it make more sense if we could continue our path and create a business that was more focused on the individuals that traded with us, more focused on the individuals that worked for us? And so really out of a protective mechanism, really, we very quickly decided that we wanted to do it ourselves. So we had to deliver that sort of fairly negative news to the founder of the business and the sole shower that said, we know you'd like to sell the business and you've had a really great offer and I'm afraid we don't wish to do it. It's not for us. So actually that was quite a difficult conversation. And because we're pretty good people at heart, we then felt a sense of sort of need to repair that damage. So we said, okay, well look, if we can't be part of that journey and we can't be part of that transaction because we don't want to, it's on us to find a solution. And that solution looked like us putting together a package to lead an MBO and to make sure that the shareholder could get the exit he was after. And we spent hours and weeks trying to find money, trying to raise investment, talking to the bank, talking to solicitors, investors, selling and learning very, very fast. And in the end, we managed to get to that place that was you know, pretty, pretty good for everybody. And we managed to conclude an MBO and raise £7 million within a couple of weeks. So definitely a career highlight, but equally also something that probably I'm still burnt out from now, some, you know, 11 months on.

When you think about that burnout that resulted from all the work that has to go into an MBO, the due diligence, the money, the stress, the wondering if it will happen and all of that, of course, that takes you and I guess Zoe, away perhaps from the day-to-day running of the business very much. And certainly I know from our previous conversation and some of your LinkedIn posts that I want to talk about later on, that that's really important to you. Being in the business is really, really important to you. It doesn't strike me that you're a helicopter CEO that sits in his ivory tower and just pops out occasionally. That stuff's really important to you. I wonder, What was the impact on the people in the organization? What was the impact on the culture of the organization for that 6-month period where you and Zoe just couldn't be there for the right reasons, but you just couldn't be there? Yeah.

Well, I think it changed immeasurably. I think we, as you say, we were wrapped up with solicitors and accountants and due diligence and everything and banks for 6 months. Leading up to deal conclusion. And it just meant we took our eyes off the business a little bit. And we're very lucky. We've built a fantastic team and the guys that we work with were incredibly supportive. And I think hopefully they could see why we were doing it. And it's as much to safeguard their careers as ours. And I think there was a real commitment to that. However, I think when you look around and the person that you go to for answers, or the person that you go to for, you know, a little bit of feedback or some cheerleading is around less, then it's not quite as enjoyable. So we didn't feel that at the time, and I didn't feel it at the time, but when we got to January, we looked around and we're like, crikey, this is not the business that we had 6 months ago. And the numbers weren't quite as good as we'd hoped they would be. And probably, —people's contribution wasn't quite where it would be, should be. And there was a few little niggles around that really you can only put down to just us taking our eyes off the ball and being so laser-focused on the other stuff. So I mean, I don't think we became a bad place to work overnight. I just think maybe some of the stuff that made us quite special in terms of the camaraderie and the teamsmanship and all that sort of stuff had just diluted. So we were pretty focused after January of making sure we could right that. That wrong. Yeah.

And I think that what you said to me when we had the conversation was when we did the deal, I realised that I'd bought a business I didn't like. Tell me more about that.

Yeah, well, it's just, so I mean, at the time I was knackered. So we concluded the deal in January '24. So Christmas was an absolute washout. So I'm sat there in January having not had an awful lot of sleep in the months leading up to it, having just ruined Christmas for my family, I felt not being very present and Although you might say I'd succeeded at delivering an MBO, fantastic, well done me. Actually, the kind of collateral damage I think was quite significant in terms of my own energy, the team didn't feel as supportive as well as current, it was present with the team. And when I looked back, it was like, yeah, well, hang on a minute, because I've not been around for 6 months, the business has sort of taken its own course a little bit, and it's not quite as strong as it used to be. And that's not because of me, it's not because of Zoe. I just think it's because when you're as passionate about— I know I love my work, I love this company, I'm so proud of what we've done and what we continue to do— that if you just take your eyes off it, even for a small amount of time, 6 months, um, people by nature, because, um, they want to be successful, they do their best. But sometimes if they don't have someone just on the edge, just coaching and was giving a little bit direction, things go in slightly different directions. So there wasn't a lot not to like, it was just, oh crikey, a few decisions that, you know, I wasn't available to help people with had been made that I probably would've done a little bit differently had I been available. So it was all on me. And then it's about what do we do next? How do we glue this stuff together? How do we make sure people feel comfortable? But sadly for me, actually the answer was, how do we move forward? The answer was, well, I'm now gonna do about 25,000, 30,000 miles in my car over the next 6 months, making sure I talk to people, making sure I go and, you know, invest in people's energy, making sure they see the whites of my eyes. This is customers, this is team members, partners, and just make sure people understand why we've made this change and how it can be positive for us all. So the relentlessness of it, if anything, dialed up post-deal. It didn't reduce. So yeah, from a sort of physiology point of view, It was tough.

But maybe in knowing you from our couple of conversations, the relentlessness of that next 6 months was probably maybe an acceptable relentlessness because it was about people, because it was about getting in front of people, because it was about realigning people. And I think to your point there about perhaps people just wanting to do their best, people just making decisions that maybe weren't the ones you'd have made. For me, the analogy I often use is a rowing team. You know, if you've got a rowing eight, you know, who's, who's nearly the most important person in the boat is the coxswain, is the person calling the stroke, is the person steering, is the person making sure that there's just little nudges here and there. Of course, everyone's putting in their best, but if, you know, you've got, you know, the person in the number one seat or the number four seat aren't pulling in time with each other, um, that causes a huge problem. So getting out on the road was one thing that you did to fix that. What else did you do?

I think it was a lot of honest conversations with people, a lot of one-to-ones. And probably the first thing we did actually was rewrite our strategy. So very quickly we got the leadership team together and we said, okay, we really appreciate everything you've given us over the past 6 months, but even longer than that. And you know, we want to make this work. With you and for you. So we're going to have this really collaborative approach now that says, what are we here to do for the next few years? And how can we make sure we're using everyone's individual skills to the best? And how do we make sure that we can go on this journey together and that you feel part of it and that you get to influence it and own it? Because that's really important to us. So, and it was lovely. I mean, to be honest, the feedback we have in the team was just really heartwarming post-MBO. It was really kind of supportive and everybody was, I think, grateful in terms of leadership team. I've been really grateful, but I think people, yeah, were supportive and could see that me and Zoe had taken a significant risk, remortgaging your house, raising millions of pounds, signing contracts with the bank that said if it all goes to pot, then it's on me, is a risk. And not many people would be willing to do that. So I think people just kind of appreciate what we were doing. So it was just communication, really. That's what we did. It was communication. It was try and rebuild trust. And it was get back involved and roll our sleeves up in the day-to-day of the business and be very visible and make sure that we were almost overly available to people and very present in the work. Brilliant.

And I think that idea of visibility and being overly available is something that's so overlooked in organizations that I often say to leaders that we might be working with, you cast incredibly long shadows. I think if you're 10,000 people, it's harder, but it's not impossible to be out and about, to be having conversations, to be dropping into meetings, to go down and buy your own coffee at the coffee dock in the office rather than sending your PA down to do it for you, for example. But that idea of visibility, availability, being available to answer questions is, is so powerful. So, so powerful. Um, and I say you probably got that back in spades, did you, from the people you were talking to?

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Um, I mean, I think, you know, typically change is something that people by nature fear, and this was change. And don't forget, you know, the business had been owned and operated by, um, sort of one guy for 18 years. So if you've been with the business for a while, then, um, then this was change. So we had to manage that. And I think the best way of managing it was just with complete honesty, complete transparency, and sort of gratitude, really. You know, we want to try and be good humans when we're at work. So, you know, I mean, I don't think it's that difficult, really. You try and treat people as you want to be treated. I think maybe one of the nicest things that we sensed and we felt post-deal was that we'd had people that had worked with us in the past that had left. Come back. And they said, um, oh, now that, now that you're, you know, you're steering the ship, um, I want to be part of this journey with you. Which was incredibly humbling, um, because, you know, people buy people. And there's loads of companies out there that you people can work for. But when someone, you know, stops you in the street and says, I want to come back, then, um, I think you kind of feel like we must be on to something, we must be doing something right, because You know, it's a really good look, frankly. So that was a nice little shot on the arm as well. Amazing, amazing.

But it's, you know what, it's funny, isn't it, that it's all those little things, you know, what might seem tiny and inconsequential that can make a real difference.

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, we kind of, so I'll give you a story. So Kit is the guy in question I'm talking about. Kit has worked for us for 3 times now. He just returned maybe a couple of months ago years ago. And he's the guy that kind of pulled me to one side and said, look, I heard you guys have bought the business and I want to be part of it. I'm excited. I love what you stand for. I love how you do things. I want in again. And Kit joined. We found a job for him and we created a job for him. And he's a lovely man. He's probably the kindest person in the entire coffee industry, I think. So we're very lucky to have him. When he joins, we kind of, yeah, kind of said part of his onboarding plan and says, okay, just to level with you, I know you think we're here in the business of coffee and your passion is coffee. You're a bit of a, as you would call yourself, a coffee sado. But really, cards on the table, we're a people business and we just happen to use coffee like as our vehicle to do things with people. So I know you love coffee and I love coffee too, but Really, it starts and ends with people. So that was quite a nice conversation. And I don't know, I think that resonates with most of our colleagues and our team, hopefully.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. And if you think about that kind of reason for being that we're here for people, it's just that coffee is our vehicle, to use your words. What does the freedom of you now owning the business, what freedom does that give you to do that you mightn't have been able to do if you were part of that bigger PLC? See if that had gone through? Yeah, well, I, you know, I don't know.

Um, I feel like when times are hard, uh, and they are, you know, right now, um, people are struggling, aren't they? Companies are struggling. Every day you read the newspaper, you read the news, and there's another challenge or another curveball. If it— in the UK, if it's, I don't know, National Insurance, um, contributions that are on the up, or it's, I don't know, minimum wage or energy or whatever you, whatever you want to choose, um, it's tough. It's tough. And I think when times are tough People often cut the things that are easiest to cut and they take the path of least resistance. And I've been there. The difference now is that we can do it our way and we can take a slightly more long-term view. And rather than being obsessed by the immediacy of profit or the short-term focus on shareholders or earnings or whatever it may be, we can now make decisions that have a long impact and will maybe be more useful for the planet and the people we work with. So that freedom is really lovely actually. And frankly, the biggest difference is we just have less bullshit in our world now and we get to make decisions collectively as a group, as a team that we care about and we get to follow our heart. And I think people sometimes think emotion in business is not good. I disagree. I disagree. I know from my perspective that some of the stuff that I've achieved in my life is, well, in fact, all of the stuff that I would put down as my greatest achievements in life have come from care and because I really, really care enough. So why can't I selfishly go to work every day and do stuff I care about? Because I promise you now, if I can build that existence, then I'm going to do great work and I'm going to hopefully give other people the ambition that says they can do the same and they can work on projects they care about and they can come to work with a smile on their face and it can about more than just a pound note, which is really important. I love that.

Great. Just building a business on care, building a business on being kind and doing the right thing. And I think what that results in is creating followership among the people that work in an organization, isn't it?

I think so, yeah. I'm probably not the best example. I always sort of say I'm really not a very good people manager. I'm first to admit, It's not my forte. I think I'm pretty comfortable being a coach. I'm a bit of a cheap cheerleader in many respects. I love the idea that I get to go and work with people and communities and I can make them feel more brave and more ambitious about what they do. That's a privilege to me. I love doing it. But if somebody wants to sit down with me and show me their spreadsheet and go through the detail of what they've been doing and their contribution and how does it map out against budget and targets and stuff, I'm not the guy. I'm not the guy. So it's about knowing what you're good at, what you're here to do, and where you can add the most value. And frankly, if I can build an existence that allows me to zoom around the world and make people feel more ambitious and more brave about what they're doing, then I think I'll sleep well at night.

Happy days. Happy days. Tell me about when you said there that one of your first jobs, other than doing 20,000 or 30,000 miles in your car, was to sit down with the management team and work out what our strategy is going to be. What did you then, because I think strategy generally can be incredibly boring and people would rather stick pins in their eyes. The average employee would rather stick pins in their eyes than read a corporate strategy because they're not really ever written for the staff. So to make sure that everybody was back pulling in the same direction, to make sure that everyone understood what that strategy was and why you were doing what you've laid out, how did you do that? How did you bring that to life for staff across the organization?

Yeah, well, I think we tried to build it in a fairly collaborative sense. However, you know, what's the old saying from Henry Ford when he was developing cars? If you ask the average Joe on the street what they wanted from a car, they'd say a horse. So we didn't want to over-consult or give people too many options or too much thought. We had to agree at a top level what we were here to do. We'd built a manifesto 6 months prior, and that was a really clear outlook that said, we're here to do 3 things. We're here to empower coffee farmers, look after people and the planet. So that's our kind of, that's our how. And now it's about the what. And for me, also, whilst I was going through the MBO, I was also studying an MBA at university, which was also really useful, but again, more tough times, more like sleepless nights, more work I didn't have time for. And what I took from the MBA actually is that strategy is two things. Strategy is about purpose and competitive advantage. And they're the two things that we had to nail down in terms of developing our strategy. And once we'd written it and we'd decided what the three things we were going to do in the short term, in the medium term, and long term, we then had to take that message to the business and we had to get people to support it. And we had to create fans internally that said, people are going to really help us drive this. So I don't think we did anything particularly unique or novel, but it was about, again, just really crisp communication and How can we bring people on this journey with us? And what does the end look like? And how can we also have a lot of fun along the journey? Because I think fun's really important as well. And, you know, something we're working on now as we edge towards 2024 is what '25 looks like in terms of people's contribution, in terms of what they want to work on. And probably the most important KPI we're going to give people next year is fun. Because why the hell shouldn't we measure what people people do in their work in relation to fun. This is important as anything else, isn't it?

I think it certainly is when you think about the world that you live and work in, which is bringing, you know, when I arrive into a coffee shop, I don't want to see dour, sad-faced staff. I want to see people that are having a bit of crack because that's going to lighten my day as well, potentially. And maybe the reason for me going in there is because I needed that bit of a lift. So I think absolutely, why not? And that leads beautifully into, because that was of course one of the one of the posts that you put up recently on LinkedIn. And I love reading your posts because whether they are or they aren't, I suspect they probably aren't filtered, that it's just you writing what you think. It's just you sharing your thoughts and ideas. And I'm just, as I flick down here, I'm looking at when Kit joined, who you mentioned earlier on, and you went to him after a month in and said, if we gave you 2 grand to leave, would you take it? To really test whether he wanted to be there, to really test whether he'd made the right decision, to really test whether you had made the right decision. And I think that's genius. If I look at, you put a post out there about 2025, the year of fun and your fun KPIs. I couldn't agree more. You put a post out there about Ben who came in for a job interview didn't get the job, but then you helped him to actually set up his own business. And probably the one that really jumped out at me was about Bex joining and running Through Walls. And she has now become your head of humankind, which I presume in the corporate world is a CPO. Head of humankind. Where did that come from?

Well, it comes from our strategy, actually, that said, you know, what are the key capabilities that we have as a business? One is coffee, one is brand, one is people. And then you look at who owns which of those capabilities, and we didn't have anyone owning people. How the hell can we put so much emphasis on one pillar of our business and not have someone owning it? I mean, again, we're tiny, right? There's less than 50 of us. So, just, you probably couldn't justify a head of people or a CPO, whatever, at a business our size until you go, no, but it's one of our core capabilities. So why would we prioritize head of finance and not have a head of people if we're saying people is our thing? So yeah, Bex is a tremendous person. Bex was running CopyShots for us and from day one just had this desire to coach people, to work with communities locally, to engage people, school leavers, people down on their luck, try and get them into work. This passion to, to give young people opportunity. And we just thought, well, although that's not like a thing we're here to do as a business, we should value that in Bex, and we should give Bex the stage to go and do that. Um, so we did, and it's been remarkable ever since. So Bex is doing a super job. And actually, in terms of leadership, I feel like that's what we're to do. You know, I love this phrase, I always use it, it's called, um, unfair advantages. I think everybody that you meet has an unfair advantage somewhere, that thing that they just do so effortlessly and so easily that you look upon it and you go, gosh, if I, if I could do that thing as well as you, I'd be so, so delighted. But of course you can't because it's not yours, it's theirs. And I think life is about finding out what you, what you do easily that you love doing and sweating it really. So Bex, we worked out pretty quickly, Bex's unfair advantage was this thing about coaching and making people better, developing people. So damn right, we want to give her a job that helps us do more of that in our business. Of course, we've got, uh, Jesse, who, um, rejoined Paddy and Scott's about 12 months ago. Jesse was like an account manager. So in our wholesale business, we sell coffee to large hospitality, leisure, and retail organisations around the world. And we have account managers on the road. Jessie used to be one of those. Jessie went off to have a beautiful little daughter called Willow and came back and said, I'd love to come back, but I don't think I want to be an account manager anymore. Is there anything that I could do that would be different? And at the time, we were putting a lot of focus on social impact and how we can measure it, how we should track it, and how we could be more braver in terms of our impact. So we said, okay, Jessie, come back. You can be our head of purpose. You can hold us to account on what we say we're doing. Are we actually doing it? In this world of greenwashing where people are always looking for opportunities to tear strips down, tear people down on doing good things, can you make sure we are whiter than white? Can you make sure everything we say we're doing, we are doing? So Jessie drives our sort of agenda when it comes to purpose. And we're so lucky to have Jessie. She's the most incredible human. She's a trained counselor. And Jesse took two other colleagues, Neil and Chrissy, out to Kenya 3 or 4 weeks ago and is working on the most incredible projects that I've ever seen. We've got the farm that we buy from a family in Kenya, comes from a place called Meru, just north of Nairobi. And within that community, there were 3 schools that neighbor the farm. We're now doing incredible things in the schools. I think when we spoke last time, Scott, we probably funded around 20,000 school meals in in coffee-growing regions. We're now up to about 425,000 school meals. And now that Jesse's here, I have every intention and every belief that we'll double that next year, which is incredible because that stuff's really important to us. So when these guys went to Kenya, it's not just about coffee, it's not just about school meals. They're talking to children in schools and they're asking really challenging questions and pointed questions about Things like period poverty and what happens at the moment in the girls' boarding school when a young lady has a period for the first time. Turns out they think they're bleeding and they think they're going to die and there's nowhere to talk to. We don't have conversations around that sort of stuff in Kenya. It's not a subject that's talked about in school. So these poor girls are scared and they're then making decisions in a panicked sense about what they're going to do next, and they're going to the doctor in the hospital, but there's no support. So we can help them with that. You know, we're about fueling ambition. That's our mantra, what we're here to do. So how can we use coffee as a, as a vehicle to, to give those incredibly talented boarding school children more ambition? And that's what we're doing. So when the 3 guys were over in Kenya last week, they were putting together plans to, um, support a, um, a group of people coming together to, to make, um, reusable sanitary products, putting these dignity packs together and then taking them into the boarding school and doing the education bit, making sure the community and families were engaged and, and, um, you know, comfortable and supportive, and trying to make sure these guys and gals have a better existence all because of coffee, which is something we're incredibly proud of and something we just wouldn't have done had Jesse not come back into our life and had we not recognized that her talent is not in commercial capitalist account management stuff. It's in making the world a better place. So how lucky are we to have Jesse back?

And what a great person to own that project.

Yeah, I don't think you'd ever see a job description or a job advert for a head of purpose, and we wouldn't have come across it or designed it if we didn't have Jesse. So I think there's a lot to be said for giving people the space and opportunity to craft their own roles. And this is that stuff we call ikigai, isn't it? You know, what can you do that you love, that the world needs, that you can get paid for? Brilliant. If we can operate a business that gives people the true opportunity to tick all of those boxes, then surely, surely the output is just a really great business that's doing good things, doing good numbers, and everyone's happy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. And I know I've said that 50 times in this conversation today, but everything you're saying, I'm just literally nodding and smiling. Tell me, we're near the end, sadly. I mean, I could talk to you all day, John, and we'll maybe do it over a pint sometime if you're in Dublin, as I said earlier. But what's next on the journey for Paddy and Scott's? You're nearly 12 months at the reins. What's next?

Well, I think we've got a few more years to go. I think what's lovely is that we are now being approached by really big organizations that I think, I don't want to say admire what we do, but I guess they do. I guess they like the honesty. I think people recognize the time is now to try and do some, do responsible commerce, try and do things very differently. And I think the world is more likely to change and is more likely to repair itself if we see entrepreneurship as a really good vehicle for that. And we're happy to do it. So we are going to grow. I don't think that growth is defined by money, unfortunately. Don't tell my shareholders. I think we're going to do stuff with any more school meals. We're going to do more impact. We're going to try and shake up the coffee industry even more so. We love the idea that we can drive this wave of direct trade where we can take people out of the supply chain, where we can make sure that rather than having 30 people involved in the supply of coffee, we can really just have 2 or 3 people involved. And we can make sure the farmer at the start of the coffee journey gets a much fairer price for their crop. We can do lots of good stuff and we can, I think, keep building on that. And then in the future for us, who knows? Who knows? I mean, selfishly, my plan has always been to get to a place where I've got a little bit of freedom in terms of my decision-making process. And that looks like, hopefully, the ability to spend more time doing stuff I care about. And maybe I could have a portfolio career. I could have 4 jobs, maybe let's say, 4 NED roles, 2 of which are paid for. And maybe those 2 are paying me to have the freedom that I can go and do 2 other NED roles, so 4 in total. And the sort of unpaid work will invariably, you know, build my heart, give me a chance to go and make a difference and make me feel really happy about my existence whilst I still get to go and do some stuff that's commercially gonna pay for that opportunity. So I think that's what I wanna be doing. And let's see, let's see. I think where we are as a world is quite interesting. I don't know if you look around the landscape a lot, but it seems to me like there's a real lack of difference out there. I heard the phrase recently called We exist in a blandemic, which was lovely, where everything is the same. Every big company is making the same decisions, recruiting the same sort of people, and everything looks the same, sounds the same, smells the same. And I don't think that's great for the planet. So how do we get past this blandemic? I think it needs bravery and it needs a real people-centric approach. And we've got to give people platforms and stages to be themselves and to not conform all the time. I think there's an awful lot of people paid to toe the line and make safe decisions. I'm not sure that's great for the world. So we're going to keep trying to fight that if we can.

And I think that's a wonderful place to leave our conversation, Jonathan, with that challenge out to listeners about what are you doing that's different? What are you doing to be brave? What are you doing to really make change happen? And what are you doing not to be bland. And I think that's a great, great challenge and a great question that perhaps we should all be sitting down and asking ourselves and writing a wee list to have a little think about over the next 12 or 24 months. It's been a joy having you back on, John. I've really enjoyed the chat. I've really enjoyed the catch-up. Congratulations on the continued success of Paddy and Scott's Coffee and the amazing work that you're doing in Africa and further afield. So listen, I've really enjoyed the chat. Thanks Míle. Thank you.

Enjoyed it.

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