139 | The Critical Role Leadership Plays in Shaping Organisational Culture | Denise Black and Denis Doolan

A soft skill is a word I ban. People skills are the hardest skills to get.

It's so easy for culture to become a soft thing. It isn't nice. It's crucial to what's going to happen or not happen in your organization.

At Inspiring Change, we're here to help build work cultures that bring out the best in people. We created this podcast to share real stories and insights from people shaping better workplaces every day. So grab a cuppa or pop in your earbuds wherever you are. Welcome to the Building Better Cultures podcast. We're excited to have you with us. Hello there, and welcome to this episode of the Building Better Cultures podcast with me, Scott McInnes. Well, it's, you know what, first of all, it's nice being back in the chair asking the questions. For those of you that listened to the last episode where Saive, my colleague here in Inspiring Change, was hammering me with questions, that felt a bit odd. So, it's very nice to be back in my usual interviewing chair with two fantastic guests today, Denise Black and Denis Dooley. And I'll ask them to introduce themselves in 2 minutes. We are talking today, we're getting into the detail now. We had a wee look at a very high level at our Mind the Gap research report. If I forget to say it later, which I will do, if you want to download this, inspiringchange.ie/mindthegap, and we'll put that in the show notes as well. So, that'll be there. But we're delving into the first challenge today that we identified in that report, which is leadership skill and will, and the really, really important role that leaders have, senior leaders, when it comes to driving strong and aligned culture. In organizations. Delighted, Denise and Denis, to have you on. Rather than, as I always do, let me let you introduce yourselves. Give me the 60 seconds, Denise, on you.

Thanks, Scott. The two Ds, I just noticed, Denise and Denis. 60 seconds, God, okay, I'll try to. 5 months into a contractor role, so focusing a lot on career and leadership coaching, HR mentoring, and sort of bespoke training. And then prior, previous to that, 5 years in the public sector, um, in a big and very interesting role where I worked with Scott as HR Director for Invest NI. And prior to that, 31 years in the private sector, um, mostly with AIB. So, um, sort of there's a bit of private, public, not-for-profit, and I as a contractor working as part of the Centre of Learning for the Women in Business Group. So I'm sort of trying to cover all sectors in my career as it's coming to, not a close certainly, but as it's coming to the last chapter.

A twilight.

Twilight, exactly. That's nicer lighting, yeah.

And it's interesting that you brought up the AIB thing, because of course that's in many ways one of the threads that ties the three of us together, apart from the fact that I've known Denis for 30 years. But Denise and I are both former AIB. Denis is currently AIB. So over to you, Denis.

Thanks very much. Hi, Scott McInnes. My role in AIB is leading the people experience team, and that covers culture, inclusion, diversity, engagement, employee engagement, and wellbeing. And I've been here nearly 5 years. Hard to believe. It doesn't feel that long. It's flown by. So prior to that, look, I had a very, I was once told to call it a portfolio career, so I'll stick with that. Sounds Sounds better than all over the place. I worked with Special Olympics International. I was part of the global leadership team for that organization, uh, which is in about 190 countries around the world. And prior to that, I had my own company for a number of years. And, uh, prior to that, just worked on major events and started out in public relations back in London, which is where I first met you, Scott.

Yeah, 3 decades ago.

Wow.

Scary stuff. Another thing I'll forget to say, which I will forget to say unless I say it now, which is listeners, if you are listening to this, we would really, really appreciate a little comment on whatever platform you're listening on or a 4 or maybe even 5-star review. All of your reviews and comments really help to get the podcast out there, which is important. We put a lot of time and effort and work into this and putting out good content. And this will be us near 140 episodes, which I think puts us in the top 3% of podcasters which is kind of amazing. And I didn't really think about when I started off in 2018. So yeah, just if you have a minute while you're listening, we would very much appreciate that. So guys, you are first up talking about the first of the challenges in our Mind the Gap Culture Report, the bit of research that I undertook earlier on this year in 2025. Let me come to you first, Denise. Was there anything particularly, you know, yes, we're talking about, you know, the leader skill and will aspect of the report, but actually was there anything in there or was there anything more widely in the report that particularly caught your eye?

A whole lot of things, if I'm honest with you. And I think it was because it's not that long ago I was in that sort of CPO role. I think some of the sort of predictable things, I think, is where we are now in relation to working environments and new target operating models, new hybrid working, which although has been around, I did a forum recently where it's still very much a work in progress, that piece of trying to work out and the impact that has on culture, the really close link to employee engagement and that whole piece. So, a lot of what was said echoed what I had experienced myself. So, it was reassuring and also still quite upsetting that some of those issues are still there and being worked through. On the skill and will type one, I think two things just jumped out at me. One, I think there was one of the comments about defining the target culture and ensuring the executive team come together to define that. Absolutely, that's right. But it really jumped out at me, and it's the experience we had, Scott, I'll mention later on, about this such an important need to involve the staff in shaping it. Yes, the leadership team provide the framework, but if you don't get that buy-in, you're on it. You're not going to win anything in that. And the other one that jumped out at me was the point about, it was a great phrase someone said, "Think global, but act local." The whole one size doesn't fit all. And I think that is very much— there isn't the, as we know, the cookie-cutter approach to culture. There are some frequent and repeated behaviors or values that work, but you really must make it unique to your sector, to the age demographic of your people, to all those factors. And I think sometimes CPOs and leadership teams don't maybe look at it that and through that lens. Those were two things I think that jumped out.

Yeah.

And I think that intentionality is so important. And I was with a leadership team doing a bit of a briefing on culture last week. And I used the line from Alice in Wonderland. And it was Alice talking to the Cheshire Cat. She got to a fork in the road and she said to the cat, "Well, I don't know which way to go." And he said, "Well, where are you trying to get to?" She said, "I don't know." And he said, "Well, take any path then, because they'll all take you there." And I think that idea that All paths will take us anywhere and everywhere unless we're being intentional about the destination. And that's really, really important. What is the target culture? What is the destination culture, the to-be culture that we really, really want? Denis, anything that jumped out at you particularly?

Yeah, well, maybe just to pick up on that last point, then the target culture piece. I talked to Gert-Janice that that is what we did 2 years ago. We had a large survey, took the feedback from it, but then used listening sessions to go a bit deeper with groups of employees. And that definitely worked quite well as a means of getting under the skin. Because, you know, the way if you do a survey, sometimes all you're left with is a percentage, right? Percentage of people who said A and a percentage of people who said B. We don't really know why they might have said either. So it's always good, I think, to explore it more in depth with mixed groups of colleagues. In terms of the report, I wouldn't say there was anything particularly surprising. I actually found it quite, I suppose, being in the role, I found it quite reassuring that some of the things that were in there, you know, would definitely resonate and that you were not alone in those. So that probably was something that stood out to me, that there's such commonality there across organizations and across the people who were part of the research. The line that jumped out at me was when culture is left to HR, it lacks authority. And that, that just really, really struck home. I just think, you know, seeing that a couple of times, it's, it's so easy for, for culture and all things associated with it to become a HR thing, you know, and, and, and worse again, a soft thing, something that's not that important. So I think the only way around that is to get true from CEO and senior leadership team buy-in to the fact that it isn't soft, it isn't nice, it's crucial to what's going to happen or not happen in your organization in terms of your delivery of your strategy and objectives and so on. So, that's the line that absolutely jumped out at me and interesting to see it in there.

Yeah, it was interesting that in that same session I was running that I mentioned before, I actually put up a photograph of a graveyard on screen with words over the top of it that just said, "Culture, HR is where culture goes to die." Because actually, if that's where it ends up, then nobody's taking it seriously. There isn't any weight behind it. And nobody really believes that it's a lever for business success. It's just something we have to have, a tick box. And you know, it's, yeah, that's all it is. So yeah, if we come back to the topic in hand, leader skill and will, that was our first challenge that came out. And of course, in going through this research, my feedback to the people who responded was, I want to know what's going on in your organization. We'll take your feedback and we'll roll that up into themes. This was the first of those themes. And of course, we bandy around this idea of, well, you know, culture starts at the top. But executive leaders in organizations do have a disproportionate impact and effect on culture, as we know. And a line that I'm often heard to use is, you know, leaders cast long shadows. We cast long shadows into our organizations. So, I wonder in what ways have you seen leaders, not necessarily in your organizations today, but maybe just more broadly in your careers, what ways have you seen leaders really set the tone for the organization, be it badly or well? Maybe Denise, you kick us off.

Yeah, I mean, it is that well-used phrase, the tone from the top. I use it a lot when I'm coaching, but sometimes well-used phrases are well used because they're right, because they are correct. And I am such a firm believer this, that if it doesn't come from the top, it just will not land. I mean, any— that your whole staff population look to the CEO and the leadership team for inspiration, for direction, for development. And if you don't see them say it, do it, drive it, then it is the words on the poster on the wall, and it's empty, and it doesn't mean anything. So I am very clear, and if I'm ever doing a piece of work and I'm doing I'm coaching a newly appointed CEO at the moment, and he's looking at the org design, the structure of his senior leadership team, which is very important. But I was saying to him just last week that if you are going to change the structure and use the analogy of the house of knocking down rooms, maybe merging teams and adding new rooms, what's your foundation? The foundation is what is the leadership like in there at the moment? What is the communication like in there in the moment? Do people feel they can speak up? Because if you don't have that bit first, then the org design piece will fail. So, the whole culture piece is the, you know, what's it like to work around here? You know, it is all-encompassing. And funny, Dennis, when you said there about a soft skill, it's a trigger for me. That is a word in all the teams I have worked with in the last 10, 15 years when I've been leading them, it is a word I ban because it just undervalues, as we know, the difficulty. So I call it people skills. So the people skills are the hardest skills to get. And sometimes if you have those wonderful accountants and, and, um, you know, the Myers-Briggs ISTJs and the senior team who love logic, order, sequence, they just— it's hard to try and explain that people don't fit into that, you know. So, um, yeah, that's, that's a real— the tone from the top in true sense, um, you know, absolutely really, really hits hard with me. I'll finish with one line I use often. You know the phrase, "It takes a village to raise a child." So, I always say, "It takes an organization to create a culture." Not one person, not HR, takes a whole organization. So, that's that.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely spot on. Denis, thoughts to add to that?

Yeah, I'd do a quick shout out to Tony O'Connor, who I learned an awful lot from in the mid-2000s. We did a lot of work together, and he used to always say, "The soft skills are the hard skills." It's a phrase I've never forgotten. I think it's a really, really great line because there's such depth to it. You know, like in some ways that is, that's exactly the challenge, isn't it? Like other things can be quite easy to define, easy to measure, all those things. Whereas some of what we're talking about here is not as straightforward. And I know that from even current work that we're doing, you know, trying to look at what metrics do we track? What metrics do we not track? You know, who needs to Input to them, all those things. So back to the question, I think it's a bit, you said something earlier, Denise, and you said, you know, it's a bit used and, you know, you're stating the obvious or whatever, but I think actions speak louder than words. And I know that's as old as time and it's such a basic, simple thing to say, but to me, that's the absolute heart of culture. We can say whatever we want on fancy campaigns and communication. And all the rest of it, but actions speak louder than words. So that to me is the number one thing about Tone from the Top. And it's a funny thing because it's not tone then, it's taking tone into real life. It's actually setting the kinds of behaviors and mindsets that people either observe and experience and therefore maybe feel under a little more pressure to take on, or they don't. And That's the thing I think with all this is there's a consistency piece to that. So, you know, no point in doing one thing and then hanging your hat on that for the rest of the year. It's got to be woven through everything through the year. And the consequences then are pretty significant either way. You know, I think you go from maybe where you have a lot of distrust and low motivation and all those things, attrition, all those pieces. Where it's not where it should be. And then obviously right through to the opposite of all those things, high trust, high engagement, and so on. If you get it any way right at all, at least you're heading towards that end of things. So, I do think it's hugely important when you think or say a phrase like tone from the top that you really think about what that means every day.

And what are the consequences, Denise? We touched on it there. When culture's abdicated to HR. But what are the consequences of that?

It just dies, basically. I mean, your graveyard analogy is spot on because it's just seen as another HR initiative. And it has no— if it's not woven into the strategic DNA of the organization, if it's not talked about, if it's not the great AIB phrase when I worked there, link and label, remember?

Oh yeah.

You always used to go on about link and label. Oh, we always used to go on about link and label. Oh yeah. Yeah, but do you know what? It is so true. And that is the reinforcement of it. And that will only happen if it is coming from the top. Absolutely. So, yeah, as a HR, as CPO, if the CEO and the leadership team I was part of wasn't going to be bought in, then I wouldn't have been doing it. It was just not negotiable.

Yeah.

And it's great, actually, it's a really good point you raised there, Denise, because Denis, what can a senior HR leader do in that position where maybe there isn't buy-in from a CEO or there isn't buy-in from the rest of the senior HR team or from the CPO? What can be done?

Well, I read a piece in the Harvard Business Review from August, actually just past August 25th, and there's a great line in it. It's actually a whole section. Sorry. It says, middle managers can't carry what executives won't model. So, again, stood out to me as something— that's the first thing I would do, right? So, I think if there isn't the buy-in, I think the first thing you have to do is highlight where that's just not coming through. And it could be from people just paying lip service and not really doing anything, or it could be from people just not— maybe being extremely busy and not putting the time and effort into trying to cascade things through their part of the organization. But I think your first duty has to be to call that and say, look, we're going nowhere here. We're back to the HR thing. If it just sits with me or someone saying we should all be doing this or we should be thinking about that, then that's no good in the world. If I don't lead 1,000 of our people and they're not hearing that or are hearing something different. And then the second, I think, is it is incumbent on someone in my role to be just be really clear about what is, I use the term pro-cultural and counter-cultural. So just being really kind of unequivocal about those, because when you leave it gray, then people can think they're living the values or they loosely refer to them, but they're not really doing that day to day. So just clarity there. And the third then is I am a big believer in in making sure people have the right supports. Because particularly, that's why that phrase jumped out at me. I don't like the term middle manager, so I'll say mid-level leader. But mid-level leaders are under tremendous pressure because they're under pressure from their own team and they're under pressure top-down, for want of a better phrase. So telling them they need to do more and more things just isn't always is going to fly. So, I think if you're coming along and saying, look, here's where we're trying to get to, here's what pro-culture looks like, here's what good looks like, and here's some tools that we've prepared to help you with that, to make it quicker, easier, one-pagers, that type of thing. Those are the things that I would see are critical in coming from an HR or people perspective to try and help Bring it to life.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. And one of the things that we picked up, that I picked up in the interviews that I had with CPOs, and maybe this is one of the root causes of that issue at the top of organizations, maybe it's not, and this comes back to the skill and will piece, and I guess this is the skill side of that, which is the capabilities that senior leaders have. We've gone on journeys as people through our careers, through junior roles to middle roles to senior roles up to now, exec roles. But sometimes we just don't have the capabilities that are required to lead in the context of today. And Denise pointed it out really nicely earlier on that I don't think anybody's quite got flexible working right just yet either. And of course, that's a whole new context, which in the context of work is still really young. We've only been doing hybrid work for 3 years. We were fully remote for 2 years before that, and we were in the office for 100 years before that. Denise, from your perspective, what are some of the specific capabilities that senior leaders really need to hone and work on in order to be those culture champions that we need in organizations?

Yeah, there's probably, I think, probably have 3. Inclusivity, I'd say, is the real first one, because people don't mind change, they just don't like being changed. You know, and I think that piece about involving them in the culture creation. And Scott, and you haven't even paid me to say this, but when I was HRD in Invest, as you know, we looked at bringing a whole new set of values in. They hadn't been refreshed for years, and it was at the very tail end of COVID So, when Scott and I started working together on that, we gave the opportunity for staff to come in. We were trying to coax them back in at that time, but we also gave the online options too. So, those that didn't feel comfortable still So, we gave every opportunity to say, okay, here are some of the values we're thinking about. Now, what does that actually look like? If I work with you every day, how will I see it? How will I hear it? How will I feel it? And that, to me, so I think inclusivity is really, really important. And there's a great quote, if I could remember this, that I read recently. Elaine Herring, who's a US author, said, If your organization can't handle difference, they don't have a culture, they have a cult. You know, and it's that piece sometimes, which I thought was great, that, that bit about when you do bring people in, you will hear resistance, you will hear difference, but that is the true sign of a healthy culture, as all three of us would agree. So, inclusivity. Agility then, I think, was another one. And agility, both in mindset and in models. When you're looking even at the target operating models. So, if you're saying, oh, we do want to be flexible, absolutely, that's part of the culture we want to bring here. Well, then I say, okay, so let me see that, let me see those words in a policy. Where is our flexible working policy? What does that look like? And if we're also saying sort of that bit about, sorry, another point just on inclusivity that came into my head is that If you're saying we are being inclusive, who is sitting at the decision-making tables? That to me, you know, there is that line. It's not my line, you know, who's at the table, you know, it's, it's, it's, and I think that's so important when you're talking about culture and creating it. And the whole piece about being agile, as I say, being open-minded and seeking the feedback, but also then in the models and the sort of the target operating models and making your point, Dennis, making it real. Not just making it. And then that whole strategic mindset and sort of the systems overlay that if you are going to really live it, well, then it needs to be embedded into systems, processes, performance management, incentives, you know, that you really do see it alive. And then the last one, which all of us, and Scott is your bread and butter every day, really, is the communication. Communication, as I always say, enables or derails any meeting, any transformation project, anything. And you have to keep on talking about it and that link and label, link and label. So, I think those to me are sort of some key sort of skills and capabilities to make it work.

Brilliant. As you were talking, I was just watching Denis's face as you were saying things, and he was mentally ticking off the thing that he was going to say in his head. It's okay. That's another one gone. Damn it.

No, I can build on two of them actually, if that's okay. So one is I actually really liked the language in the report around the idea of culture builder or culture blocker. So to me, number one is mindset because it's interesting, you know, you said mindset or capabilities, like capabilities can be learned or taught or whatever phrase you want to use. But if the mindset isn't there, then obviously you're probably unlikely to want to bother with the capabilities, or if you do, you're probably not going to put your full effort into them. So, for me, it starts with mindset. That's where to spend the time really at the beginning. And then, yeah, just building on what Sinéad was saying, I did have a couple of those, but I really think the communication one— well, sorry, first of all is empathy. Um, so it's very similar to the inclusivity point. So it's the ability to relate to other people. Again, it sounds like such a basic, obvious thing to say, but the longer I've gone on in life, the more you realize that it's just not always present. It's not always something that, um, people are strong at or find ock easy to do. Um, so I think be very careful not to, not to skip past empathy, I think, in terms of capability building. And the other then is the communication piece. So the, the storytelling part for connection, because connection is more challenging probably now than it, than it has been, you know, between the advent of so many different platforms and ways to communicate, you know, including social media, but there's just so many different ways that actually sometimes it can be literally really hard to find where did you hear something, or what is the best way to get something across to a particular cohort or group? There's just, there's so many options there. And then once you've chosen the right platform, getting that storytelling piece right. And then the other thing, which Janice has touched on a couple of times, is just listening and active listening, right? So the whole really properly listening to the SEDJ and the unsedj and trying to understand what are people really going through at the moment. And, you know, are we properly attuned to that and trying to do things that tackle it or address it? Or are we kind of just hearing what we want to hear and continuing with what we were going to do anyway? So, if I wrap those few bits, the empathy, the communication, the connection, all of those, it's, I suppose it's getting to be a dated term, but hasn't lost its relevance, which is emotional intelligence. I think having that individually and then having it organizationally. I love the quote you used a second ago, Denise. I think having organizational emotional intelligence is probably where I'd be trying to take things.

Let me come back to one thing you just said there, empathy, because I completely agree. I think it's often missing in organizations. I suppose my question is, is empathy something we can teach people? Or are we teaching them to be more self-aware? Are we teaching them to think about the impact they have on others? Or are we teaching them something else? And the reason I ask is that one of the CPOs that I spoke to said, you know, I know people throw around empathy and agility and all these things. I know we have to teach them, but I don't actually know what it is we're doing to— I don't know what it is we're telling people or asking them to do. So when it comes to empathy, Are we teaching people empathy?

Denis?

Great question. You probably can. Well, first of all, I think it's, let's go back to what you said a moment ago, right? It's a bit like when people say values, like what are values all about? And it's like, it's actually pretty simple. It's what we value, right? It's, we're putting out there what we say is important in the way we work and how we get things done. I think it's probably similar with empathy. So the first would be to say, look, what do we mean when we say the word and break it down for people? Because probably they're doing at least half of it or more in their day-to-day lives because they know it from family and friends, right? It's just the norm. It should be at least part of most people's makeup in terms of how they interact with the people around them. And maybe they just haven't seen how that might connect into the workplace. And how they treat or work with their colleagues. And then I think the second— that's the first thing I think. And then the second part is, yeah, I think you can, I think you can learn some skills that are helpful for empathy. And I just mentioned one, uh, back in the day, I used to deliver programs on things like active listening. And I, and, you know, we would work on that for a whole morning because it is, it is a skill. And obviously, you know, we could go on feedback, other pieces. That I think all contribute to an empathetic approach or leadership style in how you work with other people. So, I think it's probably a matter of breaking it down and then saying, where are the points that I could pick up on or do a bit better on to be empathetic?

Denise, anything to add? Any thoughts?

Yeah, it is a very good question. I think I think there's two ways to answer it. I think, as Dennis says, as a human being, you would like to think that all of us as citizens of the world have empathy skills within us. And, you know, to translate that from personal to professional life is a lot more dialed up now and talked about. It wouldn't have been when I started in the late '80s, early '90s. It is now seen as a badge of this is a skill to have. And then the more commercial side of me is going to say, that if you put your behaviors, as AIB did way back in 2015, 2016, that half of your performance score will be on your technical acumen and half will be on how you, you know, display and live the values and behaviors. Sometimes for some people, that motivation on their bonus will suddenly make them be a little bit more interested in learning. Now, that's— so there's the realistic hard line of 35 years working, but that's experience, because I did see some leaders at that time be more open to learning, you know, what's this about, as opposed to, "That's HR's job, all that touchy-feely stuff, let HR deal with it." And it really brought to the fore that, no, as a leader, you're, you know, what you do and how you do it is equally important. So, I think, again, goes back to that systems piece. I think you can teach it, and I think if your systems reinforce that, then it's it's going to help.

Yeah. If we think about all of that then, and looking forward, and coming back to a point that we talked about earlier on, which was this idea of target culture and having a very defined and intentional direction that you're going as an organization, how can organizations define that? And then make sure in doing so that senior leaders aren't just aligned with that, but they really, really truly embody and champion the initiatives that are then put in place? And I guess let's start maybe, Denis, with the first part of that question, which is, how do you effectively define a target culture?

Yeah, I mean, I touched on it earlier, so just to very briefly repeat, I think you do need to get the views of your own people because Denise made that point at the very beginning that if you want people to buy into something, then they need to at least feel they've had a voice in it. Not saying, obviously, like, you know, if you take the views of 10,000 people, what I said word for word is not necessarily going to be what's reflected back, but maybe in the collective, I'll at least be able to say, oh, that's kind of similar to what I was thinking or saying when we did a survey or a workshop or whatever. So I think that's one part of it. And then the other part is a bit like what we were talking about a moment ago. And like, let's say the business side of it, the purpose, of the organization, the objectives of the organization. I do think they've got to come into play as well. Like, you know, you can't, or you can, but you shouldn't, I suppose, have a target culture that seems counter to the way you're trying to take the business, the areas you're trying to grow in, the impact you're trying to have on your customers, on society more broadly. So, I think there's got to be some alignment there as well. So, I think you're probably trying to marry the two insofar as you can, and then obviously take it down to 3, 4, or 5 key pillars or points that you orient everything around. So, those would be some of the steps along the way, I think.

I think to your second point there, for me, about marrying that with what it is you're trying to get done is the idea that strategy and culture are two sides of the same coin, that we need the right culture to deliver our strategy, but we also need a really strong strategy that allows culture to breathe and gives it something to actually do. I'd probably be more— it's interesting actually, because you're kind of maybe more towards the get the thoughts and ideas of the people. I'm generally more of a, when it comes to culture ambition or culture target culture, I'm generally more of a let the senior team work out what that is. Based on the strategy that you have and what you need to get done. And therefore, well, if we've got a strategy which is very, very innovative, doing things different, going to new markets, binning all of our old technology and moving into AI, for want of an example, that we need to have a really innovative culture. Now, the people that work in the organization might never come up with that in a month of Sundays. So giving a senior team the space and the time to come up with that, maybe taking that and then bringing that to the people, Based on where we're going as an organization, this is where we need our culture to be. What do you think? For me, that maybe sits in a kind of a comfy middle ground. Denise, any thoughts?

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I think, and any of the ones that I've worked with have sort of worked on that framework that here's the framework, now what does that look like? And then we want you to drill down to what are the behaviors and the actions that will bring that higher level to real life. And funny, the, the HR forum there I chaired a week ago had 3 on a panel, um, and one of them was an organization that was fully remote. And, um, they're only up probably 4 or 5 years, doing very well. But the irony of when we were talking about the culture and the engagement piece of trying to get people in the office was that a lot of the first questions people ask in interviews is, how often will we meet? When will we meet? And, you know, they were doing it every quarter, and then they're doing surveys to see, is that more? So I think the point, and it's echoing what Dennis said too, about the hearing the voices of the staff, because that organization is a very innovative one. There are a lot of Gen Zs, millennials. So I think in some ways you need to hear from them for them to say this is the culture that we want to work here because it is a very unique environment and you want your talent and you want to keep your talent. So, I think there is a bit of— I agree with you, Scott McInnes, that the leadership team have to come up. But I think depending on what way the organization wants to shape its culture, they might need to dial up more hearing from the staff than the more normal corporate, as it were. It was interesting to hear her perspective, which was very different. Because they are shaping it very much.

Because they're coming into the workplace now with very different sets of ideas and expectations and wants and needs than perhaps somebody that's in a CEO seat where he or she has been working for 30 or 40 years, perhaps.

Yeah, I think, Scott McInnes, maybe just to pick up on the point you were asking about there, or raising, of course, like the views of senior leaders, in fact, all leaders in the organization, I think, are really important in it. I'm just probably, I am probably falling a little bit short of then bringing that as the proposed culture because what may be missing in that, and Denise, you perhaps are saying something similar, is that there could be blind spots, for want of a better way of saying it, that there could be a whole piece that, you know, senior leaders, because of maybe not being as connected to the grassroots every day may simply be missing. And that could either be an opportunity as a blind spot, or it could be a challenge that people are feeling and that might be missed in what would come out of seeing. But I know you're not saying it has to do it only. So I think, look, bottom line is we're saying you need probably 3 ingredients then if I'm thinking of the discussion. You need the purpose and strategy, right? You need to know where you're going as an organization. You do need the views of your senior leaders in terms of how that might play out in their minds from a cultural perspective. And then you need the views of your people in terms of what culture they would aspire to or want to be part of. And perhaps when you've got 3 of those ingredients, you might be able to create something that's at least on the right direction.

Yeah, brilliant summary. Thanks, Denis. We're running out of time. I could do this all— I love doing these. I could do this all day. My last thought is this, that I think we often see just culture as a thing. But if we assume that we're starting somewhere and we're bringing it forward to somewhere else in a sprint that might take 3 or 5 years, then actually what it is, is a change. It's a change from one to the other. And it's a change that happens in the context of an environment which is constantly changing as well. The world economic environment's changing around us all the time, the jobs market, things like Brexit are thrown into the mix, or the Ukraine war, or these macro factors that are thrown in and obviously push on and impact the culture that we have. So it's changing all the time to move from A to B, probably on a bit of a squiggly path. I wonder from what you've seen in your roles over the years, What is the impact of good or perhaps poor leadership in pursuit of a change like that? What are leaders doing that works really well, and what are they doing that just blocks and gets in the way? Denise, let's start with you.

Thanks. I thought I'd have a minute there to think. I think it's really going to echo a bit of what we've said earlier. I mean, if the leaders at whatever level are the sort of architects of what they see the culture being, and then all the staff sort of shape that. It's the continuity of focus on it. Culture isn't an initiative. Culture is an enabler of all the initiatives. That way, it's not a standalone. And therefore, to make it strategically woven into the DNA of an organization It will take the leadership team to do that. And echo back those points of it being constantly referred to, talked about, built into your systems, built into every sort of part of working in an organization, that you see it alive.

Yeah. Denis, so let me jump to you then and ask you the flip side of that coin then. When it comes to poor behavior or things that get in the way, what have you seen or heard from speaking to colleagues in other organizations that really blocks that progress of change?

I think I probably would. It's funny, it's not that far off what Denise is saying. I think if I stick to the leadership point that you were drawing out there, what I've experienced is when it's a campaign or an initiative, you're just going nowhere. So the word that comes to my mind is intentionality. So, you know, if you're asking about poor then, so when there's no intentionality, when it's just to kind of, you know, tick a box and say you're working on culture and all those things that happen, then you're always, I think, at risk of it just falling away, frankly. Whereas, you know, the reality is, and one thing I just was reflecting on coming into this call is you're going to have a culture one way or the other. That's the reality, right?

So everyone has one.

Everyone has a culture. So the question then becomes, you either say, let it evolve in its own way, which then will probably exacerbate some of the poorer behaviors because people get away with them. Frankly, there's no accountability. Or you're intentional and you set out your stall and you know there's a gap right? I don't think there's any organization in the world that can say, well, our target culture is this and our values are this and we're there, we have it, we're nailed. So, it's then saying, knowing what the gap is, being very quick to jump on the countercultural behaviors, on the behaviors that go against that aspiration. And then, hopefully through leadership, gradually narrowing it down to pockets and then gradually getting down to a situation where it's just unacceptable and gets very quickly called out and very quickly rooted out of the organization. And at the very beginning, Scott, you, and it probably is in the report actually, sorry, you said better leaders equals better cultures. I would go a step further and say equals better performance. So, it's to bring it back to that idea that This is not soft. And there's plenty of research out there that shows if you get high levels of engagement and a really good culture, you are going to perform better as an organization. So that to me is where leaders can play the critical role.

And I think with that beautiful summary, we'll, we'll park it there. Just to reiterate, if you do want to download the report that Denis referred to there, Mind the Gap, it's a report that we put together in Inspiring Change in the middle of 2025. You can go along to inspiringchange.ie/mindthegap, all one word. But for now, Denise Black, Denis Doelan, thanks very much for being here to discuss the first of these 5 challenges with us. I've really appreciated your time.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders on our podcasts, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.