29 | Delegating in Leadership to Drive Results

Welcome to Face Forward, the Inspiring Change podcast on all things internal communications, engagement, leadership, and change. Before we kick off today's podcast episode, a quick word about Inspiring Change. We help companies to drive successful change through the power of communications, engagement, and leadership. We've worked with many organizations, large and small, across many different sectors. And we'd love to work with you. So, if you've got an upcoming change that you think you might need support on, or perhaps you're in the middle of a change that isn't going quite so well, we'd love to hear from you. Simply send an email to hello@inspiringchange.ie and we'll get right back to you. But for now, on with today's podcast.

Hi there and welcome to this episode of the Inspiring Change Podcast. You know, it's funny that in all the other episodes that I've recorded, pretty much, pretty much to an episode, it's been all about what organizations and leaders have to do during change in order to make that change go really smoothly. But actually, it's easy when going through change in work or in our own personal lives to look to other people to make that change for us. And it was Margot Slattery in the last episode, in episode 28, and if you haven't managed to listen to that yet, you should. She was great. But she was the one who said, you know, she quoted that really famous Gandhi quote be the change you want to see in the world. And of course, it was Barack Obama a few years back who paraphrased that and built on that Gandhi quote when he said, change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. So today's episode is a little less about maybe organizational change and what leaders have to do during change, and a little more about personal change, not in a very hippiish way, I promise, but in a very practical and pragmatic way, because today I'm joined from the US by Josh Schneider, who is a coach, speaker, an author, and in his own words, he helps organizations and individuals to increase performance, energy, and happiness. Now, Josh has recently launched a new book, and, and by his own admission, not the prettiest book in the world, but that's not what it was designed for. Very much a workbook called 5 Days to Do Your Best Work Yet. And we're going to talk to him a little bit about that book today, what it can bring for people and how it works. So Josh, hi there.

Scott, welcome. Well, welcome to me. Hello. Thank you.

Welcome to you. That should be—

yeah, that was good. How are you getting on? Doing very well, thank you. Excited to be here.

Great. So you're in your car somewhere in America?

Somewhere in the— just about in the middle of the state, hiding in the garage, avoiding all of the rain, ready for summer.

Excellent, excellent. Yeah, we over here in Ireland, we just describe rain as wet sunshine.

Horrible.

We get quite a lot of that. Yeah, absolutely. So listen, Let's kick off by, by you telling me a little bit about you, your background, where you've come from and what you do today.

Totally. You know, like any, I guess, young person, I went to college because that's what you're supposed to do. Go get an education. And about halfway through, someone told me, Josh, if you pick accounting, somebody will try and hire you during your last year of college and you might even get a couple, a couple thousand dollars as a a signing bonus. And at the time, that seemed all the right reasons to, to pick a career. And so did what I had to do. And day one, I walked in October 1st, 2009, and was like, this is not where I want to be. Walked into a public accounting firm and stayed for a couple of years. But through that experience, read about 100 books— leadership, self-help, and started to realize that for a lot of people, work was not enjoyable. Work was not something that they drew energy from. And I don't know what it was inside of me at the time that said, this does not seem to be okay with me. Maybe going through college, it was working as a server in a restaurant and actually loving taking care of people and serving them incredible food. I mean, people work hard and they come to this restaurant and they sit at my table and I'm able to create this experience for them that when they leave, they're tipping me 20, 30, 40, 50% because they're so grateful. And all of those things clashed. And ultimately, it just— I was young enough and naive enough to have this belief that work could be something that should be fun, that should be enjoyed. Went from that into project management. And just, I joke to this day that my first week in project management, my brain hurt for the, for the every day because I was using parts of it that I had not used in my 2-year stay at the CPA firm. And I just fell in love with understanding that how I treat people indicates how they show up every day. When I give them respect and love. And so it, you know, that's the long version. But ultimately, I stepped into a role and saw an environment where people did not show up every day loving what they do. And like you said, this is not hippie stuff. This is not a work— the core structure of the word work is work. There is toil and effort, struggle and challenge. And I think You know, now to say the refined version of what I do is this, that there is a human struggle when we put effort in and we don't get equal result out. And I think, you know, you're driving your car, you push down the gas pedal, you expect the car to accelerate. And when we show up to work every day and we are pushing down the gas pedal and we're not getting a return on our time and our investment, that's when human nature starts to struggle, break down, and stress starts to override.

And of course, we see those massive levels of disengagement. I think, is it Gallup that state that 87% of people around the world are actively disengaged at work?

Yeah. And Gallup and Deloitte have said that it's actually 13, which is ironic that that 13 fits in, but only 13% of people love their job and are not actively looking. I mean, we're saying 9 out of 10 paychecks every 2 weeks or every week are going to people who do not want to be at the company that they're working for.

And they're unpicking them, and day by day kind of unpicking the culture that you're trying to create, which is that culture of success. And I think, you know, when you look at certainly Ireland at the moment anyway, you know, we're reaching full employment. So wanting to keep really good people is kind of paramount.

Mm-hmm. Well, and now the— it's such a beautiful time that we're in with fuller employment. Recruiting agencies and talent agencies are now struggling because salaries are up a little bit, people seem to be a little bit happier, and so getting somebody to jump or leave a role becomes more challenging. And so I've even— and one of the things we'll talk about is this idea of the tingly feeling. And just because somebody's comfortable, are they truly doing what we've seen to be 4% of our work that adds the most value? 4% of our work that when we do that thing, when we show up and we get to do that role, that task, we are turned on in a way that we typically aren't. And then we add so much value, unproportionate value, as a result of identifying what that thing is.

So let's get back to tingly feeling in a minute, because I also want to talk about Gallup StrengthsFinder, because I know you mentioned that in the book. And that's something that I'm very much aligned with in terms of focusing on what you're really good at. Tell me just a quick minute or so about what you actually do today with your clients. What kinds of things are you getting involved in?

So I spend a lot of my time traveling, speaking at conferences, companies, and You know, it could be anything from working on engagement, how do we make work culture better? Here's some ideas for how we can get breakthrough. And then in the consulting side, actually a lot of organizational change and change management and even something as, as potentially mundane as a software rollout. But if this new piece of software is impacting 10,000 people in an organization or even 50, I think how the communication is drawn up, how the training is done or the job aids, it— so many times it's done by the software company or the developer or whatever, and it's the human beings on the other end are such an afterthought. But if we're changing how somebody enters their time, we're changing how somebody connects their work to their paycheck, to how they put food on the table. And so How do we bring love and care and thought even to something as simple or an afterthought as a training job aid, a 2-page PDF that shows somebody how to do their job?

Yeah, I think it's every single one of those little interactions. If we can make each of them a little better, then I think the outcome at the end is going to be so much better. So much better. So tell me about the book. Tell me a little bit about 5 Days to Do Your Best Work Yet. Why did you write it?

Well, I heard a joke once that said there's never actually any— a bestseller, no one actually reads it. They just buy it and put it on their bookshelf. And they said, I want to stop being a bestseller and I want to start creating best readers. And that kind of stuck with me and you know, I did take 5 years to get a 4-year college degree. So I'm a simple man and I thought, well, a shorter book is easier to write than a longer book, but people are fundamentally busy, especially people who genuinely have some care and some interest in their career and their development or they're frustrated that they're frustrated. And so I thought, let's create something that somebody could put in their arm, could hold in their hand, could, you know, it's going to go in the bag and it's not going to get pulled out because the bag's heavy. And that was like the thought. And so then I took my keynote at the time and just broke it down and put it into a book and then wanted to try and find the best way to support people coming out of this. And so I think The book rounds out around 60, 70 pages. And most of, and half of that is a breakthrough journal that's walking people through.

And that whole idea of a journal and this becoming a workbook, I think certainly helps to add to that whole kind of usability piece as well. You know, it's there for me to scribble in, to write in. You know, there's very much, you know, there's a chunk of questions in there for you to answer, which we'll maybe get to in a little while. So So really it was about helping people to create breakthrough in their lives. Is that, would that be fair?

I think so. I mean, I always go back to my time at the CPA firm. I tried, I got in earlier, I stayed later, I auto-scheduled emails to go out at 11:30 PM to show that I was trying. And no matter how much effort I was putting in, I was not getting the result back and actually in the opening part of the book and a lot of my keynotes still, I share this story of American football where back in 1906, the game of football was about to be canceled and the reason being was because it was so brutal. There was 150 players that were critically injured and actually 22 that died as a result of playing the game. And they ended up instituting some new rules, and one of these new rules was something called the forward pass. And they— what they were trying to do with this implementation of the forward pass was there was only one way to play the game. You hiked the ball, you slammed into the line, and you hoped for breakthrough. You picked yourself up, you hiked the ball, you slammed in the line, and you hoped for breakthrough. Hiked the ball, slammed into the line, hope for breakthrough. And I was like, I think that's how Monday through Friday oftentimes is. We are hiking the ball, we're getting to work. We are slamming the line with no strategy, with no, like we are just hoping to win on this project, hoping to make the cut. And I'm like, there has to be a series of strategies that life is not designed for us to just hope for breakthrough. We are beautiful, human beings are beautiful people. And so I said, there has to be a better way. Okay.

So the book was, you wrote the book to try and help people find that better way. And having read through it, it's a book that as, as, as is described in the title, 5 Days to Do Your Best Work, the first couple of days are about kind of setup, looking at where you are today perhaps, and looking at where you want to be tomorrow. And then those other 3 days, the other 3 big pillars, I guess, are about how you get there. Talk me through each one of those 3 big pillars.

Absolutely. You know, in the book, the first question is kind of posed, what am I best at? And you had mentioned StrengthsFinder and Scott, do you have kids?

I do, 3 of them, little darlings.

3 of them. Well, I just had my third. My third's a touch over 4 weeks. Wow. So no report cards for him yet, but you know, when your kids bring home a report card and let's say there's 3 A's, 2 B's, and a C, oftentimes what's the grade that gets the most attention? The C. The C. Now those A's could be in algebra and science and in these challenging courses, and one of your children could be 2 years ahead getting A's, and this C could be in gym or art. And we're like, you need to focus on the C. And, you know, it just starts to shape how we view ourselves in these formative years. And so we start to reallocate our time and our resources resources and our energy to the thing that we're not naturally good at. You know, there is a lot of times where people say, well, how do I, how do I get over the things I'm not best at? Well, not everybody can hire around their weaknesses. And I say if there's a hole in the boat, we need to patch the hole in the boat. Meaning if something is a gaping weakness in our skill set, If I'm an accountant and I don't know how to use Microsoft Excel, I need to learn how to use Excel. I need to take a course. I need to apply myself. But I'm never probably going to take a weakness and make it something that I'm an above-average performer at. The other thing that's interesting is Jon Aceroth in his book, New York Times bestselling book, The Answer, a few years back quoted a study where it said, by the time we've turned 18, we've heard no, you can't 150,000 times. Wow. So we have this negative reinforcement of no, watch out, don't do it, be careful. And I mean, I thought that was ludicrous when I read it, but now having 3 kids under the age of 5, I get it. I see. Did you start coaching them? And I'm trying to be conscious of not saying it and I see how it happens.

Yeah.

But it's just astonishing. The good news though that they found out of this was that we have positive reinforcement 5,000 times. Okay. So there is a 30 to 1 negative ratio by the time we've reached 18. And National Science Foundation says we have close to 50,000 thoughts a day. I'm an above average coffee drinker, so I tend to think I'm near 70,000. But you have 50,000 to 70,000 thoughts a day with a 30 to 1 negative ratio saying, watch out, focus on the C's, the risk is too big, don't do that, don't seize that opportunity, be careful. And that's why day 1 is, what am I best at?

And I think that for listeners who maybe haven't done StrengthsFinder, it's well worth, and I've done it, and I'm sure, Josh, you've done it, well worth going to Amazon, picking up the book, it's called StrengthsFinder 2.0, and in the back is a code. You scrape off the code, you do the test. It's about 150 questions, takes about half an hour, I guess. And that will then tell you, ranked, what you're best at, what your focus is. And actually, it got me down to a T. It was unbelievable, um, how accurate it was. And that whole idea— and I think, you know, that, that, that report card analogy is one that I use all the time as well, Josh, in that, you know, we end up creating, you know, you're very good at maths and English but not so good at art and PE, must get better at art and PE. And I'm saying, why? So we can create a bunch of averagely educated kids. Why can't we just let our kids be really good at what they're really good at and not worry about the other stuff? And I'm sure there are 100 counterarguments as to why, but I'm in charge of this podcast, so I get to say what I'd like to say.

And I agree with you.

Thank you very much. But definitely, I think Strengths Finder is a tool that if you haven't done that, listeners out there, then it's definitely worth a look— StrengthsFinder 2.0. So if that's your first step, if your first step then is looking at what you're best at, what's the next step once you've done that?

The next step for me is, is the tingly feeling and finding out what that is. Now, and I'll say, you know, in addressing change, a manager with even 3 people, if I can take just one step back, a manager with 3 people, if manager can get clear on their 3 people's strengths, even the top 3, forget the whole list and how powerful that is. And as they're walking through this change, can walk up to somebody and say, "Hey David, hey Susan, as we're going through this together, I want you to think about this, this, and this. I want you to view this change through the filter of what you do best or how you see the work that we do, it just, it brings this energy signature and it brings excitement to the employee brain. And so, and I bring up the employee brain to segue into your second question of what is it? And the tingly feeling for me is something that I experienced. I was out at a client with a coworker back at the CPA firm, and it was my coworker Jen and myself. And we're at this, in this conference room, it's like 8 o'clock on a Wednesday night, and all of a sudden she looks up at me and she goes, Josh, I've got a tingly feeling. And I'm like, excuse me? And I'm single at the time, so I think, hey, maybe this is a good thing.

This is the time.

This is, this is as I've seen it to be. And, uh, and then I realized, she says, I've got a tingly feeling because the numbers match. And, and my, my gut reaction was, I get ticked off, I get upset when the numbers match. And what she was referring to, you know, as an auditor, you're taking these series of numbers and you're working them through your test or your software and you on the back end, you're wanting the number to match because it proves that the number was valid. Well, for me, at the end of 3 days of work or 5 weeks of testing this account, if the numbers matched, I was ticked because for me and my personality, I got no reward from that. Like nothing changed for the better. The only thing that happened is we confirmed what we already knew and I viewed all of that work that I did as a waste of time. Yet Jen did that work and said, "I have a tingly feeling." And that talks very much to purpose. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the thing, like purpose is, we, I love a good seminar. I love listening to certain people, certain podcasts and getting fired up thinking about what is my purpose. But that is a That is a big question. What is my purpose? And, you know, back— I mean, you go back to when I left project management to start in this endeavor, I was obsessed with helping people to find their purpose. But then I realized there's a lot of challenge. I saw the engagement statistics and I said, we don't need to find purpose. We need to find meaningful work. And I think once we start to touch meaningful work, we're going to start to get closer. We're going to start to bring ourselves into an environment that allows us to perform.

So that's interesting. So do you think that finding meaningful work drives purpose or that defining our purpose helps us to find meaningful work?

I think it's a two-way street. And I, it's a big question to find purpose. And I think purpose can also happen outside of the workforce. You know, years ago when I realized that somebody maybe like John Maxwell, who's somebody that I've looked up to for years, been in the industry for a long time, written almost 90 books. When I realized that his purpose is of equal importance to a stay-at-home mom of a single child in the middle of Iowa, state you've probably never heard of.

I think I flew over it a couple of times.

There's no good reason for you to have heard of Iowa.

Okay.

But when I realized that their purpose was of equal importance to the world, my mindset shifted around purpose. And to that woman, she could be totally fulfilled. She could be bringing incredible satisfaction to her life, to her child's life, to her spouse's life, to her family's life. Take John Maxwell, who's inspiring— his organization has literally been into every single country around the globe training leaders. His books have reached tens of millions of people. So his purpose is of equal importance to him and his family as her purpose is. And so maybe I'm getting off track, and the tingly feeling to me is, I believe— I mean, of course, I'm going to think it's the answer because it's what I'm talking about. If we can swing into identifying what is that part of our work that when we complete it, when we do it, it brings— actually, what's interesting is when we experience the tingly feeling at work, our brain is releasing dopamine, oxytocin, and serotonin. And so, like, let's push aside all of this and just get down to science. If we can release, you know, you and I are having a pint after work, there is dopamine being released as we're talking, as we're enjoying And that feels good. So if we can find a way to harness dopamine at work, harness oxytocin— when a woman gives birth, her body releases a 500x boost of oxytocin. That's how she goes from the most incredible pain she's ever experienced to pure bliss and joy in a moment because of oxytocin. And so the tingly feeling starts to Well, the tingly feeling is how we identify how those things are being released in our brain at work. And that's where we've identified and created the tool, the Tingly Feeling Compass, to try and help people back into what is it about my work that truly inspires me, that truly brings that degree of satisfaction.

Yeah, so kind of a combination of the work we do aligning with our purpose and aligning with our values. And when all that comes aligned, then bang, that's, that's the tingly feeling right there.

Exactly. And that's oftentimes where we can add the most amount of value to our organization, to our clients as well. And it's— what's crazy though, is we found that it happens right around 4% to 5% of our working week. And so people think in terms of, "I love my job," or, "I hate my job," when That gives us no— if you hate your job and I say, why do you hate your job? What's the answer going to be? My boss, I'm not making enough money. And typically, other than maybe my commute, other than these factors that are oftentimes out of our control, it gives us no discernible information on how to improve our scenario. But if we can identify what our tingly feeling is, there was a rap song quite a few years ago that was like, the grass is greener where you water it. And I think if we can harness in on what is that 4 to 5% of our work that we do so well that releases waves of dopamine, when we can find that, and what if we can take 5% and take it to 10%? And over the next 2 years, we can take 10% and move it to 20%. It just proves our value to the organization, how we feel, how we show up. I truly believe that everything starts to shift when we can unlock this.

I agree. And I think that, you know, there's an argument as well there that it takes two to tango. And one of the other things that Margot said, and actually Dennis Doolin in the episode before her, he's the head of OE for Special Olympics, you know, you have to create and have a culture and an atmosphere where you're allowing employees to be their best selves, where you're actually creating an environment in which they can be successful, because it's all very well and good, you know, I or anybody listening to this podcast could sit down with your book, work out what all the answers are. This is what I should be doing. This is my sweet spot. I'm going to get to 10 or 15%, you know, tingly feeling and doing my best work every week. But if I have a boss, or if I'm in an environment or in a culture or in an organization where, no, no, no, you just do spreadsheets, and I'm not allowed to bring that to work, then of course that's stopping me. And I guess the answer there is you leave and get another job.

There's that, but I— what we've seen is, I was with a gentleman probably about 5, 6 months ago, and we were standing, I was at one of my consulting clients, and I had to ask him a question. And he pulls up a spreadsheet, and he looks at me and he goes, "Josh, the spreadsheet tells a story." And I kind of, I mean, you know, I'm knowledgeable now, and I look at him and I laugh, I'm like, "No, it doesn't." And I could just see the look in his eyes, and he's like, Yes, it does. And he walks me through all of this data. And, you know, that if, if you like, you— maybe it's time to leave if you truly hate every single task and project and everything. But I mean, generally speaking, there is 4 or 5% of our work week that we do enjoy, that there's some part of our work that— even I was at the CPA firm There was times that I had to go into a client's office to ask some questions. And when I got to go in to their office, I would scan their desk, their pictures, you know, do they have 19 golf balls? Do they have pictures of their kids? Is there a baseball bat in the corner? And I would start a conversation around that because I was like, we're doing the work. I want to create connection and meaning because that was something that felt valuable to me. And so every single one of us, and here's the other interesting thing, and I think so many of us skip past this, is when Jen brought up to me that she felt her tingly feeling, she took a moment to stop and revel in the work that she did.

Yeah. Yeah, that recognition of taking a moment, and actually I wrote a podcast, a blog on it probably last, maybe a year last Easter, with my kids climbing the highest mountain in Wales. And I said to them, take a minute to stop and look behind you, because actually that's where the good stuff is. The stuff that you've achieved is actually over your shoulder. Or you can just keep looking at your feet and the feet of the, you know, the bum of the person in front of you for the next 2 hours. But actually stop and look behind you, because that's where the magic is. That's what you've achieved. And I think we don't spend enough time doing that. We don't spend enough time thinking about that. Tell me a little bit about the—

yeah, we do.

We certainly do. We do skip on past. Tell me a little bit about day 5. So, you know, we found out where that tingly feeling is. We know what our strengths are. What's that last day now? What's that looking towards?

For me, it's about our capacity and who we're becoming. So many times we focus on what we're doing. I had a mentor years ago say to me, Josh, sometimes you have to stop focusing on the outcomes and focus on your efforts. And, or he said, detach from the outcome and focus on your efforts. I think we are in this environment where it's like, what am I doing? You know, you meet someone at a picnic or someone, you run into somebody you haven't seen in 5 years and let, what are you doing? Where are you working? And there's so much emphasis taken off of who we are becoming as a human being. You know, we're going to live longer than we've ever lived. And so I think we're going to be working longer than we have ever worked in the past. And so the timeline to become the ultimate version, unleash our best selves at work, has a greater timeline than it's ever had before. But I'll keep it short with this idea. Are you familiar with the American Express Black Card? No. So American Express Black Card is an invitation only. There's no hard facts on it, but rumor is you have to have spent about $250,000 US for a couple of years on your current American Express to get invited. You know, Tiger Woods purchased a home with his unlimited spending ability and You know, if let's say you won the lotto or something happened, American Express said, "We've gotta get one of these in Scott's hands." And you get a little excited and you think, "I'm gonna go buy a new car, I'm gonna go redo my wardrobe, spend 100 quid, 100,000, whatever." And you go to use that card and you hand it over, and this card is thick, it is heavy. I mean, it, This card says I'm important. And you hand it over and they swipe it and it comes back declined. And they look at you like, uh, sir, your card's declined. And you get on the phone with American Express and you, you're like, what's going on? I thought I had unlimited spending ability. Tiger Woods purchased a home with his. And they say, sorry, sir, would, would you like me to activate the card? And I do believe that when we focus on who we're becoming, we begin to finally activate our capacity. Because with that card, it did not matter, or does not matter, how much is on the other side. Unless it's intentionally activated, unless it's intentionally turned on, you cannot access the beautiful capacity that's on the other side.

That's a great— yeah, it's a great point. I couldn't agree more. Tell me, if I've sat down with your book, I've gone through the book, I've done the exercises, I've answered the questions, what is it that I would expect to be at the end of having gone through this process? How have I changed?

It's a great question. And I think that probably depending on different people, you know, we're all in different processes and seasons, but I mean, my hope is that when somebody is encouraged, that they are not seeing the only possibility anymore as hiking the ball, slamming into the line and hoping for breakthrough. And to go back to 1906, once they introduced this new rule of the thing called the forward pass, What ended up happening is that season nobody played by the new rule. Everybody played the old way except for one little scrappy school. They said, "You know what? We're gonna try this thing." They finished the season undefeated and they outscored opponents by over 22-1 because they had a new strategy, a new way. And I say this in the— I can't remember whether it's in the beginning or the end in And I say, this is not the only way to break through. This is not the only way, but I do believe within a matter of days, I mean, if you're inspired, you could read this book. I think if you're a fast reader, you probably are done in an hour or less. Yeah. And I think to answer the heart of your question, somebody now can take a step back and instead of just having one approach or one mindset, can now have a couple of different ways for how they can approach their work and think about how do I get breakthrough? How do I help my family achieve their goals? How do I find fulfillment and meaning in what I'm doing every day?

Okay, great. Last question, a really quick one that I asked everybody that guests on the podcast. What's the one leadership lesson that you wish somebody had told you years ago?

I knew you were gonna ask this. And I should have— I don't know if it's a leadership lesson per se, but it's something that has shaped over it. It's this: that anything is possible, but not everything is possible. And I think as a leader or as an entrepreneur or as somebody who's trying to achieve something in their life, you can do almost anything that you become disciplined enough and set your mind to, but you cannot do everything. And if you're trying to do everything all at once, it creates confusion for yourself. Now, if you— as a leader, it creates confusion for the organization. People want to show up every day and know how to win. And when we try and do everything, I'm guilty of it all the time. I'm like, let's launch 4 projects and let's, we can do anything. I truly believe we can do anything, but not if we're trying to do everything at once.

And that's a great way to finish. Josh, your book is called "5 Days to Do Your Best Work Yet." I presume it's available on Amazon. Amazon?

Correct. Yep, that's the best place to pick it up.

Cool. It has been a pleasure talking to you. It's been really nice to look at change more from the personal angle than from the leadership or, or kind of corporate angle. So thanks a million for coming on and talking to me today. It's been really enjoyable.

Scott, thanks so much for having me.

Thanks a lot.

All right, bye.

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