30 | How a culture of learning helps to drive organisational success

Welcome to Face Forward, the Inspiring Change podcast on all things internal communications, engagement, leadership, and change. Before we kick off today's podcast episode, a quick word about Inspiring Change. We help companies to drive successful change through the power of communications, engagement, and leadership. We've worked with many organizations, large and small, across many different sectors, and we'd love to work with you. So if you've got an upcoming change that you think you might need support on, or perhaps you're in the middle of a change that isn't going quite so well, we'd love to hear from you. Simply send an email to hello@inspiringchange.ie and we'll get right back to you. But for now, on with today's podcast. Hi there, and welcome to this edition of the Inspiring Change podcast. It is my first week back I'm just back from 3 weeks' leave on an amazing trip to Borneo, and actually only the second day that I've had to wear trousers and shoes. So I'm still getting over that, but I figured that today, given I was in here doing an interview for the podcast, I should probably put on some clothes and some shoes, because that's probably a good starting point. We talked in episode 28, just before I went away on holidays, to Margot Slattery about the importance of having a diverse and inclusive workforce and the benefits that that can bring to an organization. Today I'm going to look at it from a slightly different angle because I want to talk to Joyce Walsh, who's the head of leadership and talent here in Ulster Bank, about the impact of learning, of development, of talent on the whole area of culture and leadership, because I think they are two things that sit very much hand in hand. One of the questions that I'm going to be asking Joyce later, just so you're ready, is the whole "are leaders born or made" question, but we'll come back to that in a while. Joyce, hi, thank you for having me.

Delighted that you're here and delighted that you're wearing clothes as well.

Okay, we might edit that out, we don't know, we'll see how odd that sounds in the playback. Thank you for having me. Let's kick off with the usual easy question. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your background and where you've come from? Because I know that you've had kind of both sides of the coin in Ulster Bank because you've worked on the business side, but also on the L&D and talent side. You tell me a little bit about your history, where you've come from, and your role today in the bank.

Sure. I'll go back briefly. So I was born in Waterford, grew up in Waterford, and went to school, left, and wanted to work and didn't really want to go to college because I played badminton and wanted to move to Dublin where badminton was more, you know, it was there was more opportunities for me here, so I wanted to get a job and the banks were employing a lot of sports people at the time, so I joined Bank of Ireland back in 1989 and worked my way up in Bank of Ireland, spent 14 years there, but pretty much a banker by profession, that's what I did, and I left Bank of Ireland in 2003 and came to Ulster Bank. I had made, I probably, which was a career move that didn't really suit my skill set in Bank of Ireland, I was in private banking at the time, and I think you either— you can either stick at it and make it work, or you can take your lesson and maybe move on, and that's what I did. And a friend of mine was head of resourcing here in Ulster Bank, and she said, I think you'd make a great area manager. And I thought— didn't even think about that type of a role because I had been in a kind of a back-office operations function in private banking, had been in the frontline before.

And that was a move more into branch banking?

Exactly. So, but she said, up to before 'Before you can become an area manager, you need to become a branch manager. We have some vacancies.' So I came across and I started as branch manager in Blanchardstown, and within a year I was an area manager. So it's interesting that some people can see the skills or the capabilities that you have that you can't see in yourself sometimes. I was an area manager for about 3, 4 years. Had a great time. Loved the role. It was really a real leadership role and delivering through people, pretty much. And then the head of retail at the time at the time asked me would I have a look at setting up a retail academy because at the time the learning and development sat in the business and retail had a retail training team but the corporate markets had a corporate markets academy and it was much sexier and there was, there's a lot more going on there and Mike Bamber at the time said can we have the same in retail so I looked to set that up and I did and that's when we first met actually back, back in the day. And then in 2009, post the crash, all those learning functions were amalgamated under HR, and everybody, everybody who was working there was put at risk, and one learning team and one head of learning was, and I was successful, and I became head of learning for Ulster Bank sitting in HR. So I moved into HR 10 years ago, and I've been there since, and up to last year I was head of L&D, and then last year I moved into Head of Leadership and Talent. So just, I suppose, I was in the role doing L&D, had really evolved it in the organisation, and then we needed really to look at talent and leadership and succession in particular, and that's— I moved into that role a year ago. So that's where I am right now. So I'm only in HR— well, I say, people say to me, you know, how did you settle into HR? I say I'm still settling into HR because I'm a business person by nature, so So yeah, it's interesting.

I'd argue that probably HR needs— and I worked in HR for years as well— that HR needs that business, the commerciality piece, the commerciality of people bringing that in to say, what you're talking about is fine in theory, but actually in practice, in the field, that won't work, or we need this, or have you thought about it from this angle?

Yeah, and I think HR as a function is evolving and needs to evolve, because when you look at how the world of work is changing, you know, and I think I've looked at some of your podcasts and people are like, you know, they're Chief People Officers rather than the head of HR because human resources, you know, it's, it's, they're people rather than humans. It just, it feels a little bit archaic at times and I think learning and development is that element, I think, of HR that can really help it to evolve.

Definitely. The one thing that you didn't mention that I will mention is that you won the Irish Institute Institute of Training and Development Outstanding Individual Contribution to L&D this year.

I did, I did. How wonderful was that? Yeah, career-defining moment for me. So yeah, it was just, it's just been, I think I've been very fortunate that I've worked in an organisation that now values learning and development. Yes, I've helped that, the organisation to get there. I've also been very fortunate to work with a fantastic group of people, and I think, but when you have those things, when you have the organisation buying into learning and development and what it can do, and you've got a great team of people working with you. I was just very fortunate to be able to pick up that award as somebody who's headed up the function, but you know, the IITD do great things and I think we started to leverage them a few years ago and we have pretty much every year since 2016 have won an award. We won the organisation one back in 2016, that was fantastic, that's probably nearly has been more impactful for me than my own one. My own one is brilliant and it was fantastic to get that award because they only brought it in 2 years ago and it's fantastic to be recognized, as you know yourself, in an industry where you're working. But I think for the organization to win Best Organization back in 2016 after all we've been through, I think was fantastic. So yeah, brilliant.

You are a leader and have been a leader through your career. And of course now in your, your role as Head of Leadership and Talent, it's your job almost to go out and find and nurture future leaders of the bank. So I wonder, from your perspective, what is it that makes a leader a great leader? From your perspective?

I was having to think about this last night.

That's good, that's prep. It's very rare that people do prep for these podcasts.

Well, yeah, my prep was just after midnight, which is never good. You know, for me, and I think there's an element with leadership that what I see as a great leader and what you see as a great leader may be very different, but I think there's something for me around a balance between being able to be strategic and have a sense of, you know, where you're going, but being able to bring people with you, and it's that connected piece or that relationship piece, so there's the strategic strategic piece. They have to be strategic and say, look, this is where we're going, it's, you know, but they also need to be able to get into the detail to say, this is where we're going, but this is how we're going to get there. There's the connected piece for me around that relationship and bringing people with you. You know, the way you know you'll have worked for leaders that you would have walked over hot coals or raging oceans for, and there's other leaders that you're a bit meh about, and sometimes it's that style thing can be a little bit different. I think integrity for me is huge, that integrity is there, and with that integrity comes humility, that humility of, you know, I don't know everything, I'm willing to learn, I learn from you, I learn from the most junior person in the organization. And I think, you know, when we look at now, you know, studies around leadership, that whole thing around vulnerability, is huge, and I know Brené Brown talks about vulnerability in a lovely way. We don't always see that, but when you do see that, when I do see that in a leader, it's something that really resonates with me. So I suppose there's the strategy, there's the connected piece, the relationship, there's the humility, but then there's— I think that's all wrapped in somebody being a really good communicator, somebody who can inspire that vision and communicate that vision in a way that resonates with everybody regardless of what level that they're at. Whether you're a direct report of mine or whether you're, you know, one of the 400 of the team that I'm leading. I think if you have the skills to be a really good communicator and to make that strategy, to break down that strategy and make it, you know, meaningful for everybody that's in your organization, that's key. That's key for me. But again, I think there's a style thing with leaders. And I think you're— that for me, because there will be very different leaders that you will really relate to that are probably a little bit more like yourself. Yeah, yeah, it's that bias, it is that bias, and I think, you know, the older you get, you realize that, you know, if that leader may not have ticked all my boxes, but the key things that they're doing are something I can follow that person.

And actually, in some instances, I find through my career that there are leaders and bosses or managers, call them what you will, who maybe aren't quite aligned with you and aren't quite aligned with your value set and aren't the kind of person that you'd go for a beer with. But again, that bias piece kicks in, and what happens is you end up not then seeking to perhaps learn from that person because they're not my cup of tea, in inverted commas. Whereas actually, somebody like that can often be a really useful source of learning as you're going through your career, both for the things that you should be doing and how you should be doing them, but also for the things that you shouldn't be doing.

Absolutely. And I would think, looking back, I probably have learned more from leaders that I'm not— that probably I had a little bit of a disconnect— is probably a strong word— with. But I think if you work through that with them, that's where the real learning is, you know, because they're showing you parts of yourself that you're probably not If you're going to surround yourself with people like yourself, they're not going to really tell you the things that you're not great at, whereas they will do that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I've often said that it's the— call it negative feedback, call it developmental feedback— that's more useful than somebody saying, "Georgie did a great job on that programme, you did a great job on this leadership piece." That's important too, but actually the more important, the more useful stuff to you as you're growing through your career is the more developmental stuff, I think. Yes. Yeah. Let's do the big question because you've named a lot of traits there and it's really interesting that probably if you listen back, this is episode number 30, if you listen back to all the previous episodes, humility and vulnerability are themes and traits of great leaders that keep coming up.

Yeah.

Which is really interesting. So when you think about leaders, Are they born or made?

It's a great question, isn't it? And again, I was thinking about it last night, and I think leaders are made, okay? Because I think inherently there's certain aspects of leadership that can be taught and learnt. And with experience over time, I think it's a set of skills that can be learnt, you know, through training and observation and experience. And, you know, in here in Ulster Bank we have Determined to Lead, and with Determined to Lead comes a really good framework with regard to an operating rhythm for a leader, certain things that you need to do on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Okay, sometimes it can feel a bit prescriptive, is this, this is how you can become a leader, but there's some really good frameworks in there with regard to, you know, how you bring people with you, and so I think, I think, I think leaders are made. However, I think great leaders are born, and why I say that is with, with all the frameworks and the processes around leadership, there's then that's wrapped in character and charisma and influence and inspiring, and I think we know those people that you come across in your life that they resonate with you, they stick out in your mind. And I don't know, that character and that charisma, I don't know if that can be learned per se. I think there's some people that are born with those attributes that when they're in a leadership role, they stand out as a great leader, if you know what I mean.

I think it's really interesting when you talk about, you know, we've got frameworks for leadership and creating great leaders. And I wonder how, because again, we've all had those leaders who would take that framework because they're slightly more left-brained than right-brained. They would take that framework, I've done A, I've done B, I've done C, now I have to do D and E and then I'll do F. How do you make that authentic? How does that leader become authentic? Because actually that team is looking at that person and going, yeah, they're just really going through the motions of what Joyce and her team set out in the leadership framework. How does that leader become authentic?

And I think while there's aspects of the framework that you would say, like, it's just a set of things to do, a lot of those things to do are about people, and they're about spending time with people and observing your people and coaching your people. So if you just take it fundamentally that part of Determined to Lead is that I'm going to spend time observing you and on a monthly basis, and I'm going to give you feedback. Whether you're a left-brain or a right-brain leader, I think that's a good thing that a leader is spending time getting to know you and getting to see where your development areas are or where you're doing really, really well, and that they're taking the time to coach you. Mm-hmm. There's a recognition part of it as well. The authenticity, I think, that's when leaders bring their true self to what they're doing. And you know, you may have somebody who— and sometimes I think with the charismatic leaders, they may not follow the process as much because, you know, they're— I'm not saying they're more of a winging it kind of a leader, but they're freewheeling there. They are. So again, when I went back to my initial point that the leader that you really resonate with and the leader that I really resonate with may be very, very different. And because part of that framework is about spending time with your people, and I think that can't be a bad thing. And I think the authenticity comes with regard to, I suppose, how they do it. And again, back to their vulnerability and their humility, it's around, you know, I find this quite awkward, but look, I have observed you and 'There's a few things that— there's some feedback that I want to give you.' So I think, you know, there's— look, there's pros and cons for things like that, but I think there is more positives around having Determined to Lead and having that 10-step leadership model that people can refer to, because I think for me sometimes leadership is nearly like a trade or a continuing professional development, because A lot of the aspects of leadership we don't have to do every day or every week or every month, and it's about, it's a bit like, you know, when you're in the gym and you're training. If we don't flex that muscle or if we don't continually learn, how can we continually evolve as a leader? So I think sometimes when we promote people into leadership roles, we kind of say, off you go, you're in a people manager role now, and off you go. Do we ever check back in? Do Do we ever keep coaching them? Do we ever keep making sure that leadership is one of those capabilities that needs continuous learning?

Yeah, yeah. I've often, I've often said to clients and at events that I've been speaking at that people just assume that people are good leaders. And that is an extremely dangerous assumption. You know, there are times where, you know, you might be a lawyer, and you might be a really good lawyer, and you end up being really senior, and then they say to you, "Now you have to have a team." "What? But I like lawyering. I don't like leading people. I don't like people. I don't like leading people. I'm not actually very good at it." "Yeah, but you're senior, so you now need to do that." Never in the history of time has anybody ever gone to a really good people leader and said, "You're a really good people leader. You're really senior.

You now need to become a lawyer." It doesn't work because you're not a lawyer.

Yeah, that's not your skill set. It doesn't work the other way And I just think it's really interesting that we tend, and I don't know what it's like in Ulster Bank, but I know certainly in organizations that I've worked in previously, we didn't have dual career paths. We didn't have a career path for somebody who's an absolutely cracking people leader, and that's just their job, versus a really good lawyer or risk person or IT person or HR person, that you could track each other's careers doing what's really, really central to your skill set. Whether that be people leadership or legal or risk.

Individual contributor, yeah, yeah. And I think that whole career path thing is going, and it's more— I heard a great description, it's like a career playground, that people are moving more sideways and laterally. And I think if you're a really good people leader, that's where your skills can really be, you know, used to the benefit of the organization rather than you're staying in risk or you're staying in a certain part of the business.

That idea of a career playground, I love, and actually that talks very nicely to the next question, which is around culture, because I think that often in organisations it's all about up. Am I going up? Am I getting promoted? Am I moving up through the organisation? Because if I'm not moving up through the organisation, the organisational culture dictates that I'm not succeeding, that I'm not doing my best, that I'm not making it, if you like. Whereas for me, that whole idea of a side ways move, lateral moves into different areas at the same level to get different experience, to meet different people, to experience different things and different ideas and different ways of thinking is really powerful, I think, in terms of creating rounded individuals. So, from a culture perspective, I wonder what the role of L&D and talent development is in creating the culture that organizations want for themselves.

Just, I think from a learning and development perspective, if you have a culture in an organisation that has a learning culture attached to it, I think that can only be a positive thing because for me learning and development is about the individual and it's about the individual, you know, improving their performance, improving their capabilities, improving their skills and in turn the organisation then benefits, because if you have that focus on learning and you're a learning culture, I think that can only benefit. But your question was more around—

General culture in the organisation and the impact of L&D and talent on creating the right culture in an organisation.

Yeah, and you know, there's a huge focus at the moment on culture, and particularly in financial services.

It's a big buzzword.

It is, you know, and the CBI have been in here and they've done their culture report and the Banking Standards Board has been set up in Ireland that's looking at culture in financial services. So it's really, really important and what I've seen here is that we have T100, T120, which is the top 120 leaders. We have them on a quarterly basis, sessions with everybody. The theme for the last two has been culture. But culture, as we all know, is a combination of values, norms, and behaviours in an organisation, along with traditions and ways of working that have been here for years. And Ulster Bank is a longstanding organisation. You know, banking is a very tradition— very traditional, and how you change the culture is going to take time, because culture is what you consider consistently do, and it's about being consistent and persistent. I think learning and development plays a huge role, but I would say that because, you know, I see the benefit that it does have and that it can have, but I think from a cultural perspective, we need to really define, you know, where we're going and how we're going to get there, and the how part is where L&D comes in and where talent comes in. See, for me, I'm in the school with regard to culture of if you put your employees at the heart of everything that you do and they're first and foremost your priority, everything else will fall out of that.

And that's the Branson, the Branson.

And I am in the Branson, not everybody is in the Branson school.

No, I'm in the Branson camp as well.

Yeah, but there's people who say, no, you need to put your customer first, and I get that. I do get that, and you have to be customer-focused and you have to be customer-obsessed, because particularly in banking, the way everything is evolving. But I, with regard to culture and learning and development, I think learning and development can be a real strategic enabler in an organisation. But in order for it to be a strategic enabler, it has to have a seat at the table, and it has to, the organisation has to to see the value that learning and development can bring. And if that's there, I think that then in turn helps define the culture of an organisation. And particularly in organisations that are evolving and going through change all the time, sometimes you can lose that connection with the real value that learning and development can bring. I don't know if that answers your question.

Yeah, no, it does. It absolutely does. And I, you know, I think you're absolutely spot on that in terms of setting the destination.

Yeah.

Here's where we want to be as an organization, here's how we're going to get there. It's then about helping people to see the how in what they do every day is contributing towards that.

And it's funny, when I was looking at this last night, Jack Welch— I looked at a video and he talks about, you know, that as leaders you need to be the chief meaning officer. You need to give meaning meaning to people. You can have the vision, you can have the strategy, but he said, what's in it for them to go with you with regard to where you're going? And I think that, that really resonated with me. It's about giving people meaning, and that's where leaders have a huge role.

And when I, when I run my comms courses, or when I run one of the, one of the business breakfasts that I do where I talk about leadership and culture and strategy. Actually, for me, the most important role for a leader, and you touched on it, is that ability to take a very generic top-level CEO-level corporate strategy and make that relevant to people who are maybe 10 levels down the organization or 15 levels down a great big organization, or maybe based in an Ulster Bank branch out in the in the middle of Mayo. Yes. What does that mean for us? And that's the role of that branch manager, that team leader out in Mayo, to be able to say, well, listen, don't worry about 95% of that. The bit that we need to worry about is this bit here, and let me show you the connection between what we're doing down here on the ground and what we're trying to achieve at the top table. If that's all a leader does, for me, they're doing a great job.

Yeah.

Because that connection helps to drive engagement, helps to drive meaning, helps to bring purpose to life, and is critical if businesses are to succeed.

Yeah, I think that purpose thing is— and, you know, things— I think it's important that, as you said, that person in Ballyhaunis branch or in Blessington branch can make a connection to when they open their doors and they see a customer, how that's related back to where Ulster Bank are trying to go, our top-line strategy. And that's a real skill.

Yeah, yeah. When you think about creating more engaging workplaces, and of course there's oodles and oodles of research out there around engagement levels and corporate performance and people staying on and sick leave and all that great stuff, so actually having an engaged workforce we know is a good thing.

Yeah.

I wonder what the role of a leader is is in creating that engaging workplace for their staff to be in?

Yeah, and I think we touched on it. I think it's bringing meaning to the organisation strategy, because I think you can't have— you can't say, oh look, the strategy is over there and that's the strategy, that's where we're trying to go. You need to really bring that down to the most, you know, basic level for people so they can say, look, this is as an organisation where we're trying to go and this is your role in it. So I think they have a real role in engaging their people in Ulster Bank or whatever organisation being a great place to work. And what does that great place to work mean for that individual? I think again you're coming back to how they communicate and how they spend time with their people. So I think it's about It's about bringing meaning to what the individual's role is in the organisation. And really, I suppose, understanding— I think one of the things for me is leaders understanding what makes their people tick. And I think that comes from the leader being self-aware. Because if you're not self-aware with regard to what motivates you and what gets you out of bed in the morning, it doesn't mean that everybody is going to be the same. So I think there's a level of self-awareness. Self-awareness for a leader and taking the time to listen to their people to find out what resonates for them and what, you know, because sometimes what motivates me will not motivate you. And I think it's about how they communicate and whether that's, you know, verbally, whether that's written, it's simplifying the more complex things for people so that they can engage with it. And I think then in order to have an engaging workforce course, it's all those other things, Scott McInnes, like we talk about culture, but you know, we talk— well-being is a huge, a huge component for people, and flexible working because the world of working is changing, and the leader's role is to make sure that the individual knows all the good things that are there about the organisation and where the opportunities are, because sometimes, particularly in here, it's a challenging organisation given that we've gone through so much change change is a constant state, but it's really helping people to see the opportunity in that change and to communicate that in a positive way.

Yeah, so something I talk about when I'm talking about change management is this whole idea of what used to be change readiness. We would train people to be change ready, which for me is a very passive, you know, we've trained you, we've sheep dipped you in the change, now you just wait there for the change to happen. I think what we have to do is we have to get to a point where organizational cultures are more change-active, where actually people are looking for change, where people are actually allowed to own the change, where they're allowed to suggest changes, where they're allowed to— and then change just becomes the way we do things around here. Because if it doesn't, if your organization isn't changing, it's probably dying. Because particularly in banking, you know, you've got these upstarts jumping over the wall, nicking bits of your lunch, you know, the 18 to 24 mortgage market, or, you know, young people's current accounts, or people that don't live near a bank branch. So you've got to be changing all the time in order to keep up with those guys. So that whole idea of change active versus change ready for me is really important.

Yeah, because we've identified 5 critical people capabilities for the future, because one of the things that, you know, we need to be— I think when you're in L&D or you're in talent, you need to be developing capabilities for the future. So we've 5, so they're Improver, Innovator, Change Ready, Critical Thinker, Trusted Advisor, and Connected. And that Change Ready piece is around thriving in a change environment rather than seeing change as a one-off event that you prepare for, because it's something, it's about thriving in ambiguity because that's what it's like in here. But then that in turn builds resilience. But to your point, if we're not evolving and changing all the time, we're going to be left behind.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. When you think about organizations that are struggling to create really impactful L&D strategies to help them grow, to help them create the right culture, to help them build leadership capability that will serve them really well in the future, what hints and tips can you, can you give those companies that are struggling in that area in terms of helping them to develop?

And I know I'm asked this, I'm asked this a few times, like people would reach out to me, and I think, you know, as I said before, I do believe L&D can become a strategic enabler to the business, but I think in order for us to be a strategic enabler, we need to be linked to the strategy of the business, and I think then to do that you have to earn a seat at the table, and sometimes it's you you have to do the real hard graft because I think sometimes L&D can be seen as the fluffy part of HR that will get people out of the office, out for a day and we'll do something on, you know, self-awareness or influencing and persuading and we used to do that a lot here and I always use our story because I remember when we went in to present for the IITD Best organisation award and we were presenting. The guy had a great analogy, he said, so it's a bit like a spray and pray approach, and I said, you know what, you're right, we had a load of offerings, we had a website, you know, you would have been involved back in the day when we were doing our prospectus and all that, there was a huge amount of offerings, but I remember going into the classroom and I remember getting a real sense that people were just out for the day, and I thought, so there was that side of it, and then I remember we had an HRD here who was quite challenging. So if I go back to a leader who challenged me, who was very different to me, he kind of said to me, but you know, what do L&D do? And I got quite defensive, and I kind of— but it made me, you know, great question, absolutely. And I, you know, I find feedback challenging, but when I reflect on it, I see the benefits in it. And I reflected and I thought, you know what, what's my legacy going to be here? What— and it's not about me, but what's the legacy of learning and development, and I kind of thought, you know what, we're doing— we're just spread, we're just spread really far, we've all these great things, but how is it building the capability of the organization? And that's where I suppose it was a bit like a come-to-Jesus moment that I thought, you know, we need to stop. So what we did was we stopped all of that, we stopped all of those offerings. So there was a huge impact on people because the offering went from however many tens down to a very concentrated few, and what we did was we sat down with the business and we did like a training needs analysis, but we were very clear with the business that our role was to build organisational capability to help the business achieve their goals to deliver the strategy. And so it was sitting down with the business and saying, okay, so we asked them to identify their capability gaps. And then what we did was we said, okay, where's that linked to the goal? Is it a training need or is it not a training need? Because sometimes you know yourself, we take people out, we train, there's an issue with risk or there's an issue with sales, let's take them out for a day, we'll train them, and then if it doesn't get any better, it's training's fault because we handed it over to L&D. So it's very much, I suppose you have to be brave and you have to be courageous and say, so we had those really good conversations. And we had a very focused set of deliverables around learning and development that we were able to measure and show impact to the business. So I think for me, you have to get brave and you have to be able to challenge the business, to partner with the business, I think, rather than to be a service provider to the business.

Yeah.

And on the back of that then we set up a strategic capability forum where it's very open and honest, we have a very finite budget, the business come in with their capabilities, we discuss them and we agree where the money is spent and it's not a case that we give, we apportion it out as we would have in the past. So I think in order to become a function, a learning and development function that really adds value, you have to ask yourself. What benefit are you bringing to the organization, and how are you building the capability of the organization? And if you're not doing that, you need to change what you're doing.

And there, I think, in terms of creating that, in terms of helping to create that strategy, those two questions are brilliant questions to ask yourself.

Yeah, and they're hard questions because I remember then, but you know, I'm going to be honest, I'm not going to say that that happened and everything was hunky-dory story, you know, our employee opinion survey developing people would have gone down the next year, and you know, that would have been the downside. Totally, because you go from being all things to all people to having a really defined focus for a certain cohort of people. Say the first year it would have been our relationship managers in commercial banking, but we were really able to to measure the impact of the sales programme on them. It won an award actually at the IOTDs for collaboration with the company that we did it with. But it was a very finite number of people, but you have to take the hit on this side. But were we building the capability of the organisation? Yes, we were. Were our relationship managers in commercial banking better at what they were doing? Absolutely, they were. But now what we're looking at, we've kind of gone so far one side, you then have to say there's an element now where you need to— how do we get back, not to deliver in a huge amount because we don't have the resources, we don't have the people, we don't have the budget. How do we bring, how do we get learning and development out to more people? So we've got a kind of a Time to Learn campaign now where We're trying to build the brand around giving people time to learn because one of the things that's always the feedback you always get with people with L&D is, "I don't have the time, I don't have the time," and what we're trying to do is to give people the time, but it's not about workshops, it's not about coming, the workshops are part of it, but it's about listening to podcasts, it's about providing them with the resources that they can learn in different ways at different times, I think is really key.

Yeah, yeah. Finishing up.

Yes.

Last question. You'll be pleased, it's nearly over. It's nearly over. This is a question I ask to all podcast guests, and I will at some point, I keep saying this, that I will put together a podcast at some point of all of these answers just in one podcast, which will actually be quite long now. What leadership advice would you give to your 20-year-old self? Yourself knowing what you know now?

So leadership advice as in— I was looking at this question— as in becoming a leader?

Yeah, what would you do differently?

What would you do differently?

Yeah, what would you tell yourself to do differently looking back?

I think one of the things I would say is to see myself with my own eyes rather than what other people thought of me, and I think as 20-year-old, that's difficult because I would be a people pleaser. I would have been much more of a people pleaser in my 20s than I am now. And back yourself is another thing that I would say because I think that confidence thing was a challenge definitely for me. I questioned my ability and I think that I was always probably looking for how it wouldn't work out rather than how it would work out. So it was around backing yourself and believing in yourself, I think. And it was just even, I suppose, when Angela said to me, I think you could make a great area manager, she saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. And I, but I do, I do think that comes comes with age. I do think that comes with age. And I think say yes more and think about how you're going to do it rather than overthinking things. So take the opportunity when they're there. I definitely did that more when I got into my 30s and my 40s. But say yes more and think about how you're going to work it out. And I think be true to, be true to your brand, because I think one of the things I always talk about is your brand. And it's something that's, for me, has always been, you know, my mom was a great role model for me around, you know, you get up, you dress up, you show up, and you never give up. And I think I've always had that, and I think it's not been frightened to have a brand and staying true to it. And that's where your authenticity comes in, because then, you know, that, that's where your true self will come out. And I think there's a bit as well around finding your passion. Find something that— and I saw something last night, actually, an article that said, you know, people talk about finding your passion, and it's not about finding your passion, it's about finding where your, where your gift is for the world, and then your passion will come from that. But I think it's, it's about finding something that will get you out of bed in the morning. And I'm not saying being relentless, but knowing that what that is for you and staying true to it and keeping it, keeping it on your horizon. But most importantly, I think it's around backing yourself and believing in yourself and being confident.

I think that advice from your mum to get up, dress up, show up, and never give up is absolutely brilliant. I will use that and quote your mum back. That's all I have. Joyce, it's been really nice talking to you.

Thank you.

Really appreciate you taking the time to come on and have a chat with me.

Thank you.

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