33 | How the right Tone of Voice can positively impact culture and customer experience

Hi there and welcome to this episode of the Inspiring Change podcast. An apology before we get into the main body of the interview, my audio in this episode isn't fantastic. Luckily, John is crystal clear, and as he is the one that you'll probably want to be hearing from, then hopefully it won't make too much of a difference for you. But I do apologize. I hope to be back to full 100% sound quality in the next episode. But for now, let's So let's go on with this edition of the episode with John Simmons, the grandfather of tone of voice. Welcome to Face Forward, the Inspiring Change podcast on all things internal communications, engagement, leadership, and change.

Good morning and welcome to this episode of the Inspiring Change podcast. I'm really excited this morning. In fact, I always think, I often, I always say I'm really excited when I get to meet guests because we always have such brilliant guests on the podcast, but today I'm particularly excited because today I'm talking to John Simmons, who arguably could be and has been previously described as the godfather of tone of voice, or the grandfather of tone of voice, I don't know which. We can discuss that with John in a second. For me, tone of voice is such an important thing when you work in communications and when you work particularly around change. We'll talk to John about some of this in a second. The tone that we use in our communications at work is so critical in terms of getting people to think, feel, and do the things that we need them to think, feel, and do. And how we talk to people, whether we choose to go down that very formal route or a very informal route, how we're being clear or unclear can really help to bring people on a journey. So delighted that John's here. He's going to talk a little bit about himself in a second, but I'll blow his trumpet a little. Having kind of invented tone of voice, written a number of books on the subject, and then moved into fiction and novels. And I know that John has just finished the draft of his fourth fiction novel, so he's been keeping himself very busy. So John, thanks for taking the time this morning, I really appreciate it.

Scott, it's good to talk to you, always is.

I'm looking forward to hearing a little bit more about tone of voice and about the journey you've been on and where the whole thing came from. So Why don't we kick off maybe first of all with just you giving us a little bit, as I often do at the start of these podcasts, a little bit about you and where you've come from in your career.

Okay, Scott. Well, you mentioned sometimes godfather, sometimes grandfather. I'm not sure I'm absolutely happy with either of those descriptions. I like to think of you as both. But grandfather probably implies quite correctly I've been around for a while now. So when you say, well, how did I get to where I am today? Going back a bit, but trying not to bore everyone with my complete life story. At university, I read English, and so I was really into, you know, the joy of language, really, and what you can learn from literature. And when I came out of university, I started off wanting to be a novelist, but there were no— there were no adverts in the Situations Vacant columns that I could apply to to get that particular job. So I found myself in the world of work and trying always to get as close as I could to jobs that I allowed me to do some writing. So I started out in publishing, then I went on to an organization called the National Economic Development Office, which was to do with a number of different industries across the UK and on the industrial strategy. And from that I learned a number of things. First, about a wide range of different industries, how business works, and also about how you simplify things to make them accessible, perhaps these fairly esoteric economic and commercial arguments, how you make them accessible to the widest possible range of people. And as part of that, I started also working with designers and really enjoyed the process of working with designers. So my next career move really was to then join a design company. And so I did that. I joined a company called Newell and Sorrell, and I became, well, I became everything to do with words in that company. And the idea of tone of voice started to come to the fore then because we were working on the identity of the clients that we were working with. And this was the language that we used at the time. This is the 1980s. And some— as when you looked at the visual identity of a company, the logo, the colors, the typefaces, photography, etc. And in proposals, I started slipping in this phrase 'tone of voice' as one of the things that we would look at as part of your identity. And to be quite honest, Scott, I didn't know what the hell I was talking about at that time. But life is often like that. We stumble into things. And then in the late '90s, Newell Sorrell was acquired by Interbrand, which labeled itself as the world's leading brand consultancy. And there was truth in that. They had offices in over 20 countries around the world. I was in the London office and Rita Clifton had come in from Saatchi's and she talked to us all, the directors of Newell and Sorrell, about what we'd like to do now. And so I said, well, I don't want to be running a design group, which is what I've been doing to that point, but I want to focus on this issue of language and the language of brands. So The terminology had changed from identity to branding, and so we were now talking about brands. And so Rita said, 'Fine, go and do it.' And so I went and did it by setting up what was originally called the Tone of Voice Group, and then that seemed a bit of a misnomer to me because there were only two of us in this group. And it was slow to take off. And I realized that in Interbrand, it was a very process-driven organization, and they needed a bit of their own jargon to really understand this and adopt it wholeheartedly. And so I came up with the term verbal identity with the thought that verbal identity would sit alongside visual identity and people would understand it. As a natural twin for things like the logo and so on. And so tone of voice became embedded in branding programs as a result of that. And that was where I got to. And then in 2004, I think it was, I left Interbrand because I wanted to do more of my own work that didn't involve working solely with multinational companies and the freedom to work with a wider range of companies on issues that really interested me, but all issues around language really.

So give— for the purpose, obviously you and I have done projects on tone of voice, we might talk a little bit about one of those later on. But for the listeners, just define for me what tone of voice actually is.

Tone of voice is, well, as the brand we'll talk about a bit later on, Scott, is ARB, which is where I first came across you. Yeah. And the words that we put on the COVID of the tone of voice guidelines there really seem to me to sum it up as succinctly as I've ever managed. It's not just what you say, but how you say it. So the content of the words that you need to communicate are important, but also the form in which you say them. So what is the tone in which you're going to be communicating these words? Do you want to come across as friendly or formal? Or— there are all sorts of aspects to a personality that Bram will have. How can your words reflect the personality that the brand is trying to project for itself? And that's really what we mean by tone of voice.

Okay, or indeed for me, I think how can you use words to help an organization to become culturally perhaps a better place to be?

Absolutely, yeah. And it's interesting because I think when I started working on tone of voice, I came probably from a primarily marketing background. So what was driving it was this question of, well, how can we make this client's brand distinctive to the external world? So differentiation was such an important aspect of that. So brands might differentiate themselves through my logo looks like this and yours looks like that, and so they're clearly different. Can we do the same through words and particularly through the words that we use in a marketing sense to communicate with our customers? What's happened, and I think has been interesting over the years, is that tone of voice has become equally important. At least equally important in the internal perspective. So how does this work for people inside the company rather than— and the words that they will write to each other. And as you say, it has a cultural influence in doing that. And I think that for me has become the biggest change over the last 15 years in the way that I've looked on tone of voice.

That it's become much more of an internalised issue than an externalised one.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, and I think it's really interesting, I think, and you touched on culture there, you know, many organisations these days are using culture to really set themselves apart. When you think about, you know, the whole idea of employee value propositions and why somebody should come and work for me versus work for somebody else, and why, when they've come to work for me, why they should stay. Culture is such a strong part of that reason. And for me, the way in which employees in an organization treat each other, talk to each other, and communicate with each other is, is wholeheartedly a massive part of that.

Absolutely. And it does also loop back into where we started with the external, because How can your external brand work as effectively as you wish it to work if you don't get your people on board properly with it? Because it will break down at the very first encounter that your brand has with the outside world if the people who are supposed to be reflecting it don't absolutely understand it and feel it and project it intuitively.

Categorically, and I think that when you, when you look at organizations now that are trying really hard to set themselves apart from a customer experience perspective. You know, we offer the best customer experience if you come to us, you know, to buy your car, to buy your whatever, you know, you'll get the best experience. And without the staff behind the brand, without the staff reflecting those values, absolutely, you end up with a game of two halves, effectively, where, you know, someone's reading something on an advert, and then they call into a call center and the experience they get is completely different because the two aren't aligned.

Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me as we were talking about this, that probably where this all started to come together for me was when— I'm going back to the early '90s now— and I was working with W.H. Smith, the a well-known bookshop and stationers chain in the UK and a bit further afield as well. And I was working with the internal department, the— well, we have to come out with this word at some point, Scott, but there's human resources.

Oh my God!

So the WH Smith HR department and and John Ainley, who is the director in charge of this, a lovely guy, and by the way, you should interview him at some point as well. John said to me, 'Well, I've got this team who are working on internal communications. I'm not sure we're communicating that well. I'm not sure that we're actually projecting internally the things that you're trying to do with the WH Smith communications externally, could I run a workshop for them? So at that point I said to John, John, I've never run a workshop, I don't know how to do this, why do you want me to do it? And he said, well, because you can, you'll be good at it. So thank you, John, he got me to do my first ever workshop and it was with his internal communications team. In, in WH Smith, and, and it worked really well. And that then led on to, you know, almost a career of workshops that I've, I've run ever since. And, and they do work particularly well, these workshops, I think, when they are for the internal audience, because as well as the specific things that you're trying to do with the workshop to do with what is this tone of voice and how do we actually write in the way that we're talking about to reflect this brand. They also have this second objective that's often not absolutely stated that, well, we want to do this because it has the effect of bonding the team. Together more effectively. And so you create a team of people who are working internally who then become the ambassadors for your brand and changing the culture within the business through the words that are used because we all use words, we all have to use words and it's always my point of view that if you're going to use words, well, you might as well use the best words that you can and be completely confident and comfortable in the way that you use those words.

Absolutely. And it's funny because when I talk to people about tone of voice, and perhaps when you do as well, you know, the go-to place, just because the terminology tone of voice, is that it's spoken word. And of course it is spoken word, but it's very much for me more, and for you, about the written word and trying to close that gap that gulf between people talking in a very human way, and then the closer they move toward a keyboard, the less human it becomes, the more alien it becomes, the more formal it becomes. Henceforth and forthwith, pursuant to my email of 22 October, you know, try to close that gulf between the written and the spoken word.

Yeah, and one of my main principles about writing has always been, well, to write as if you were speaking, which absolutely relates to what you've been talking about there. And I always think that, you know, emails probably over the last 20 years have been the main medium for communication in businesses. I always think emails should be conducted like conversations. They are not, although often businesses insist on the legal terms and conditions they put at the bottom of the email, but they're not primarily a legal contract. So you're trying to get someone else to do something that you would like them to do or that you want to interest them in. How do you do that? Well, you sit down at the equivalent of the conversation that we're having here. Scott. It's like we're having a chat over a cup of tea or coffee. This is the tone, my general go-to tone for emails, but you have to try to establish the relationship. There is a very human relationship through the words that you use. So let's not make it too formal. Let's not be passive-aggressive or anything like that. Let's just have an ordinary everyday conversation between two people.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we've all been in a situation, I think, working in larger organizations where, you know, somebody from, from 10 desks away sends us an email and it just completely gets our back up. And I think it's funny, just referring to the tone of voice guidelines that you talked about there that we worked on for AIB, and I think in the foreword Anne Burrows, who was the head of internal comms engagement at the time, spoke about coming into work on a Monday morning and opening your inbox and seeing the first couple of emails, and how those perhaps first couple of emails can either make your week or break your week, because they might be written so badly that, you know, it just completely pisses you off for the rest of the week, or might can conversely be written so well and in such a human fashion that it really makes your week. And it can— the words that people write, I don't think they realize the power and the impact that they can have on people.

Mm, no, that's certainly true. And I think we all need to recognize, and we all do absolutely recognize, that people at work are very busy. So we're not talking about You know, we're not talking about encouraging people to write emails that go on and on forever in a very rambling way. But on the other hand, we're not talking about a sort of Rumsfeld style of communication and just being absolutely blunt and direct all the time. And I think there's a happy medium between those two extremes that is just reflecting the fact that we are human beings. And so let's have that kind of conversation.

So how does an organization, if we're thinking about the kind of the happy medium between those two places, how does a company, how does an organization go about creating its tone of voice, defining its tone of voice? How would they do that?

I think it relates to, still, internal or external, it relates to what is the brand. We're talking about here. So what are the values of this particular company? And then, well, if those are our values, then how do the words that we use actually reinforce that perception of the brand? And so that's the starting point really, and it goes to the heart of what any business is all about. So you have to be asking Well, who are you and what do you do and how do you go about it? And fundamental questions sometimes in a branding sense gets dressed up into the form of this is our brand model with our mission, our vision, our values and so on. But actually you can reduce it to much more simple things than that. You know, you have conversations as I'm sure happen every day. What are we trying to do here? What is this about? What is the purpose that we're trying to achieve? And the purpose that goes beyond the absolutely obvious things like, well, we're here to make money or whatever it might be. So you do start to get into what you referred to earlier as the culture of the organization. So What is the culture that we're trying to engender here, and how can our words reflect that culture and build it and make it a much more successful culture?

I remember that when you and I worked on, as you talked about earlier on, when you and I first met working on the AIB tone of voice when I was in AIB, and you know, we spent a lot of time in workshops where you guys spent a a lot of time in workshops with staff finding out what the tone of voice in the organization was today, finding out what they wanted it to be, reviewing emails, reviewing magazine articles, reviewing the intranet, reviewing HR policies and IT policies and security and risk documents, and a whole range and gamut of things which gave you a bit of an insight into the, into the, the as-is, that what is it today. But I think for me, and you touched on this earlier on, it was about how asking people, what do you want it to be?

Yeah, yeah.

What do you want it to be in the future? And then how do we get between the two?

Yeah, absolutely. And often when we start talking about gender voice, people say, well, you know, the words aren't that important. And then you do the kind of audits that you've just described there of, here are some of the words that we've produced over the last few weeks, last few months, and it's extraordinary how many of them there are. It goes into internal and external communications, and you see that people are communicating in many different ways and many different tones as well. So it's obvious that if you can have a more consistent tone, then that's going to be better for the organization. It doesn't mean that you have a sort of robotic tone, but you allow space within this framework that you create for individuals to have their own take on things. And so as long as you keep to the framework, then there's latitude within that for people to express themselves in a way that is personally satisfying and creative. I would use the word creative. I mean, I think it's important, and culturally creativity is important as well, because people can be stifled by the feeling that this organization is denying them their creativity. Well, the words are there, the words are available to everyone. In fact, they're a requirement for everyone. You can't go to work and not use words. So how can you use those words in the most creative way? And by creative, I don't mean let's get people writing poetry, although—

We do like writing poetry. We did enjoy a lot of poetry writing while we were going through this project.

Yeah, we did. But to use them creatively, by which I mean make a connection between you as a writer and whoever is on the receiving end of that connection. Communication. And by making that connection, there's a creative spark that happens. And that is much better than the sort of command and control way of operating that probably, to be fair, Scott, when we first started talking about the situation in AIB, they'd got themselves into that situation for for perfectly understandable reasons because the financial crash had happened. It was a bad situation for people working in the business because there was so much uncertainty. There was a feeling that, well, I might not be here next week and all sorts of uncertainties like that. And I think that What we were able to do with the Tone of Voice program was to address that uncertainty, the negative issues that were there, and without having a sort of Pollyanna approach to saying, "Oh, it's all gonna be lovely in the future," but just to show them that there was a way through this where we can move to a place that is better than the place that we're in at the moment, and that the words that we use are an essential element of that journey.

Yeah, and there are— completely. And there are a couple of things that I think you touched upon there that really, really jumped out, and one is that, you know, there's a framework there, but it has to be a framework. And it's interesting that when we wrote the document for AIB, it was tone of voice guidelines, it wasn't tone of voice rules, because a set of rules would suggest that we expect everybody to do everything exactly the same, and we don't. We want to put in place guidelines to help you along the journey, to help bring you along this path to this better place. And for me, that did give people the latitude and the space to do something that was a little bit more creative. And as you say, it's not creativity in terms of Shakespearean writing and poetry, but it's just in terms of trying to be a bit more human, a bit clearer, you know, some of those pillars that we came out with in the tone of voice guidelines. So, you know, that was really critical. I think, you know, that project was probably one of the most successful and satisfying projects that I've actually ever worked on. You know, we trained over the course of of a year, maybe 18 months, we trained 1,000 people in how to apply those tone of voice guidelines. 10% of the staff. The change that that made internally in terms of how people communicated was incredible. And when you, when you talk there about the writer creating a link to the reader, there was a really good example that I use quite often where somebody in the IT or telecoms department, every year an email would come out around around about June time, and it was generally in caps, generally in bold, and it was all about not using your mobile phone abroad, not using up data, because it cost the bank a lot of money. And it would very much come, you know, "Do not turn on mobile data unless you absolutely have to." You know, "You must not use mobile data abroad, it costs us a lot of money." That type of surly tone. I remember that you and I and Matt had had a discussion around, well, who do we get first? To go through this training? Who do we get first? Who are the big wins? And it was the likes of risk and IT and telecoms and legal and those departments who would send the humdingers of emails out to staff. And I remember then, the very next summer, an email landed in about June time with a headline, have you packed your sun cream? And I thought, huh, that's weird. And of course, immediately I'm hooked in, I'm going to open it. The tone of that email was, you know, you may not realize that we spend X amount of money every year on mobile data. We're not saying that you shouldn't use it. All we're saying is do use it, but then please make sure you turn it back off again, because in doing so, it can save money that can be then used on other things. Yeah, yeah, unbelievable. The turnaround was phenomenal.

Yeah, and that's a great example. And there were lots of others as well because we were dealing with things. An example I remember was the Christmas drinks issue where it was quite sensitive because, you know, all the different departments were being told to save money and cut back. So what do you do at Christmas time? And really forbidding issues, emails went out about the Christmas drinks. And then we were able to come up with a way of saying this that was just far more, far easier for people to take. We were still saying, well, don't be silly. Don't indulge in sort of wild parties that get you noticed in the neighborhood and people start talking about your organization in a negative way, but you can still go out and have a good time. It is Christmas, let's celebrate, let's have a bit of joy in our life, and that is part of what we want to get out of work as well.

And I think both those examples show one of the key cornerstones of that guideline that we put together, which was being adult to adult, you know, treating people People know fine well that they shouldn't go out in any organization wearing their uniforms on the rip, you know, in a pub on an evening making fools of themselves, because that has a negative kind of impact on their brand. They know that. We don't need to shove that down their throats, but we do need to bring it up from time to time, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

No, absolutely not.

So when we think about— obviously you and I spent probably the bones of maybe 12 or 18 months on this, on this program, and creating and then rolling out the tone of voice within the bank. And since that's been taken on, and actually new guidelines written, or updated guidelines written, which beautifully pulled together the external and internal tone of voice. But I'm very proud, as I'm sure you are, that it was the work that we had done internally which actually drove into the external. So that was nice, which then bridged that gap, because between the internal and external voice. And again, that was something that from a bank perspective, you know, we were still writing letters, you know, 'Dear Sir,' you know, 'henceforth and forthwith,' 'pursuant to my previous email' type language. The language in those letters, even out to customers, completely changed.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it has that effect. And it's an interesting example because, as you say, now the external and the internal have been brought together. And that's often the way with these things. I mean, as we're on the subject of Christmas drinks and things like that, I'll bring up a Guinness example. And all these examples seem to be based around Dublin, but I'm not quite sure why.

And drinking, not that we're casting aspersions or anything.

Yeah, but when I did some work with Guinness, it was— it started out definitely 100% focused on their external communication. The reason why I was brought in was because they'd conducted a worldwide review of their advertising and marketing and wanted to bring every country together under one understanding of what is the essence of our brand, of our Guinness brand. And they'd come up with this thought of Guinness reflects your inner strength, and that started to be projected through the advertising that they, they did. And then as we worked on, on that, and one of the things I was asked to do was, was to go back into a bit into Guinness history and find out had this always been so? And so the stories were there. You could tell from way back to Arthur Guinness, for example, in 1759. Those stories were there. And it then started to develop a slightly different trajectory, which was interesting because I was, I was working with John Potter as the global brand director of Guinness, and he wanted his whole worldwide team to get this. So it then started to turn into more of an internal communications project. So through these stories, like the rediscovery— because they lost sight of it at this point— rediscovery of Arthur Guinness and his founding story, and getting the rights to use the Dublin Water water, then that was a reflection of Arthur Guinness's inner strength. So how can we tell these stories all around the business? And I came up with this idea that was to have at the end of the day, on, on the end of the week, what we called 1759 emails. And by 1759, it was a reference both to the founding date and Arthur Guinness, but it was also a reference to the 24-hour clock. So at one minute to six, let's say that's going home time, an email would come around and it would look back at the week we've just had and then look forward to what are the challenges for the week ahead of us and do that just through a short email, probably no more than a couple of paragraphs. But set that out in a very short, engaging way that everybody could relate to. And so it was a really good internal motivator as well.

And a great way to bring the internal tone of voice to life on a week-to-week basis, I guess.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, so we think about organizations, obviously we were lucky enough to work on the big tone of voice program in in the bank. But in organizations that may be listening to this that might be small, you know, there could be 5 or 10 or 50 or 100 people who maybe don't have the resources or the time or the wherewithal to do that whole shebang, to go through the entire tone of voice process. What are some of the small things that you might recommend that companies start doing or thinking about in their employee communication that can really help them shift the dialogue culture?

I think the first thing and most important thing is to be as clear as you possibly can about what is it that is the essence of your organization. And a lot of organizations actually aren't particularly clear about that. So I would say there's no point going off into some kind of frenzy of communication that isn't directed and doesn't have a clear focus and a clear purpose to it. So all organizations— and I'm currently working with a small charity, for example, here in London, and I'm going to go in to talk to them in a couple of days' time, and I'll have some conversations with them which are no big deal and no expensive deal either. It's just facilitating those internal conversations to happen. So get people together and be absolutely clear about, well, this is who we are, this is what we do, this is why we do it. That why, I think, is always very important. And if you're clear about why you want to communicate, then That really creates a direction for the communications and making those communications better. And then there are very simple things that you can do with language to make your language much more human than it might otherwise be. It doesn't mean that you have to become an absolutely award-winning copywriter or anything like that, but you can all communicate in in a way that expresses your personality and the way that that personality is part of the organization that you're working for as well. So look at the way that you use words. You know, there are some very simple things. I won't go into them here, Scott, because we get down into too much detail. Yeah. The basics of language. You know, the way you use personal pronouns, for example, and the way you use active verbs rather than passive ones, those kinds of things are absolutely vital in enabling you to change the tone of communications in a way that is really effective.

That for me, that the first person pronoun for me is a huge one. You and us and we. Rather than, you know, the employee, the company, the organization. That, for me, immediately— I was doing a bit of work last week with a client on purpose, defining purpose and values. And when I came back with the value set that I was proposing for them, the first thing they all said was— they all started with 'we.' Yeah, they were action-oriented.

And they all said, 'It just makes it sound as though it's all of us together.' And I said, 'Yeah.' Yeah, and it is a way of really saying to people as individuals that you count in this, we trust you, you are representing this organization, rather than hiding behind the third-person view of the organization, which sort of shields people to an extent, but not in a way that is empowering for people. And what I want people to do with their words is to really own those words. To say, "These come from me. I made them as good as I possibly can. I want them to communicate effectively." And if we can do that, all of us within this organization will feel better about actually working here.

I love that. Brilliant. John, you've written a number of books on tone of voice, of which I've read them all, and I may even have a signed couple in the cupboard. If a listener was listening to this and wanted to get more on tone of voice, just generally, just to learn a wee bit more, which of your books would you recommend they picked up?

Well, Scott, there's the question.

You're not allowed to say all of them. Pick one.

It's like saying to a parent, which of your children do you like best? I think probably I should say the most recent one because I've organized, I've written a chapter, I've edited a book that has just come out called Dark Angels on Writing. Dark Angels is an organization that you you know, I co-founded some time ago, and it is about these questions of language and trying to get people more comfortable with the way that they use words and more confident in the way they use them. And so Dark Angels on Writing is available. It's got a number of other chapters written by other people, other like-minded people. So I think it will give gives people a broad view of what are the issues here and how can we address them, and is full of useful advice and tips, but also conveys the philosophy that I think is very important in all this.

Okay, and if you want more on Dark Angels, you can get that at www.dark-angels.org.uk. I've actually been on a couple of the courses that John and his colleagues run, and they were amazing. So if your interest around writing has been piqued having listened to this, then by all means go visit that website. John, if people want to know more about you, the publisher has a website page for you as well, don't they?

Yes, Scott, I haven't looked at it for a while, so if you tell me it's still there, then yes, it is Urbane Publications, I think.

Urbane Publications, brilliant stuff. And listen, you might do me a little favor. Michelle O'Connor here in in the office when I told her I was interviewing you, was very, very excited because she thinks you're great. So you might give her a little shout-out. I've never done this before. I've never asked any guest to shout anybody out before, but you might give Michelle a little shout-out there for me.

Oh, Michelle, what can I say? It's lovely to meet you even in this very tangential way. If Scott gives me an opportunity address, I will send you a signed copy of Dark Angels: Home Writing.

Brilliant stuff, and now that you've said that on the podcast, I'm going to have to hold you to that, John.

I'm happy to be held.

Listen, as always, it has been absolutely lovely talking to you. I've really enjoyed the discussion. I will hopefully meet for a pint in London very soon.

Very soon, I hope. Thanks a lot, Scott.

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