35 | Diversity, trust and stories are the key to successful cultures

Welcome to the Inspiring Change Podcast on all things internal communications, engagement, leadership, and change. Hello there and welcome to this edition of the Inspiring Change Podcast. Before we kick off with the guest for this episode, a quick apology. It has been some weeks, probably 6 or 8 weeks since the last episode. Podcast episode with John Simmons went out. Of course, we did have our panel that I put out in early December, but for those of you who look forward to this podcast every couple of weeks— I'm sure there's one or two of you, hopefully— apologies. We've got some great guests lined up this year. We are kicking off with gusto, and I'm really pleased that our first guest this year is somebody that I've been doing a good bit of work with over the past 12 or 18 months, Mary O'Dea from the Institute Institute of Banking. Mary, hello there.

Hi, Scott. Great to join you on this.

Thank you very much. Thank you. So we'll get to it. We'll maybe talk a little bit about some of the work that we've done together and why that's been an important thing over the course of the podcast over the next little while. But for now, why don't we— we always kick off with a nice easy one to just ease guests into the whole podcast thing just by letting you tell me maybe a little bit about you, about your career, and about your role here as the CEO in the Institute of Banking.

Brilliant, okay, well, I suppose career-wise, if I go way back, I studied pure economics in UCD. That's how I started out on my degree course and moved to a master's degree in that. Then I later took on a second master's degree while I was working actually in investment and treasury management, so very much in the financial world. I spent much of my early career in the Central Bank, starting off as an economist in the forecasting area and then moving into the regulatory side, which was just when the IFSC that we're now having our conversation in, when the IFSC was established. And it was a really exciting time of growth within the regulatory scene and actually a real build on the regulation side. I remember being sent to London and to Chicago at that time to find out how do futures exchange work, etc. So very exciting time. Then I moved through various roles in the Central Bank, including a couple I'll just highlight. One of Consumer Director. Again, that was a real new build because the financial regulator had been separated from the Central Bank at that time, and it was bringing together 3 different organizations. So the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs, Enterprise Trade and Employment, and the Central Bank. So 3 really different cultures to be merged into a new purpose-driven organization. So that was a very interesting time. And then I spent a little while, a year, as the acting chief executive. Now this was during 2009, which of course was a really difficult year for everybody in this country, and some people of course are still feeling the effects of that. So that was, was a very different challenge, I think, as a leader. At every level of these various careers, I was the first woman to hold the post, so that sort of brought something with it as well. I moved from there to join the board of the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, as Ireland's representative. And again, that was at a time when Ireland was in a program, so a very interesting time in the IMF. And then I spent 3 years as Ireland's representative at the World Bank. So that brings me nicely down to coming to the Chief Executive of the Institute of Banking here, the IOB. And of course, it's a leadership role, a very strong leadership role. It's a time of huge transformation for us in IOB, and I know we're going to pick up on some of this a little bit later on, Scott, but just to give you the sort of big picture view of where we're at, at it. So for those who don't know us, the IOB is a professional membership body. We're a college of UCD and we provide lifelong learning, both accredited and unaccredited programmes, to our 34,500 members across the country. Our average age of student is actually 36, so we're very conscious that our students are working, managing family life, studying at the same time, so it's a big undertaking for them. And we like to provide them with a service that really fits into their day-to-day life and encourages them to take on bigger learning. So within our new strategy that we kicked off, our 5-year strategy, we have some very important transformations going on. One is about the product that we're going to be delivering to people. So we'll have a new front-end piece which we're currently calling the Learning Index, but basically it will be a very individual experience for a person online. So when you go on to do your learning, it'll say, hi Hi Mary, we notice you have XYZ learning, you might be also interested in, for example, our culture programmes, and we'll really use data analytics to drive this so that you can compare yourself as a professional to what other professionals are looking at. You can also set out within that your own ambitions and what your goals are, and we can help you to achieve those goals and ambitions by providing the type of learning that you need to get there. And then behind all of that and sitting underneath of it, the credentials that you get along the way will be held on a really new piece of technology that's based on a blockchain platform. And this is a first in the world, I'm happy to say. So we've partnered with Deloitte on this. They have their blockchain European lab based here in Dublin, and we've partnered with them and with our big corporate members to pilot this blockchain solution. We've gone through a successful pilot phase and we're now heading into production. So the back end of what I've just described will be held on this piece of blockchain technology. So it's a really exciting time for us at the Institute. And that's apart from building new programmes related to culture in banking, related to digital transformation, sustainable finance, and new programmes on operational risk. So we're still doing the day-to-day modules around risk, ever-evolving, around credit, etc., but also looking at the new world of financial services, not just in banking but right across the sphere, including in the funds industry. And to support our funds members, we're launching a new professional standard the Accredited Fund Professional, which people who have completed our Level 7 diploma level in funds will be able to apply for, and then we will support them in lifelong learning throughout the year so that they can maintain that professional designation. So a lot going on in the Institute at the moment.

It is busy, busy. Every time I'm in here, there are people running around the place left, right, and center. It's a busy place to be. Thank you for that. Very interesting. I love the blockchain stuff and just how it would be very easy, I think, in an organization like this to sit back and just focus on what had gone before. But actually, I think the key learning for organizations and what they're after is what's coming in the future and help us with that, which is a really interesting challenge. You touched there on one thing that's very close to my heart when you said, as CEO in this organization, you're predominantly a leader. A people leader. What do you believe makes a really great leader? What are some of the, what are some of the things that make a great leader, some of the traits?

Well, actually, I've been thinking about that quite a bit, uh, in this role. And for me, the biggest part of, you know, if I think of great leaders that I've worked with or that I see out in other organizations, the biggest part for me is that the person can actually be themselves. And I think It's really interesting that sometimes leaders can model themselves on other leaders, and for me, that's really a mistake. That actually the best leadership you can bring is to bring your authentic self and to help others to bring their authentic self and what that means. So I would be very focused on inclusion, really, really focused on inclusion. And sometimes even when we sit around, you know, with a team of people, you may not visibly see a lot of diversity, but of course we're all really, really different. So I like to bring my individual unique self to the workplace with all the vulnerabilities that that brings, because I want to encourage everybody else to do that, and I really want to encourage people to show up as who they really are. Nobody else can do that, and that to me is the unique thing that each individual brings to the world.

Yeah, I love that. And, you know, it's one of those things I actually was writing a piece on, on D&I the other day and talking about how, you know, gender diversity has become a big thing. And I know you're very passionate about that. But, you know, we talk about disability or we talk about sexual orientation or LGBTQ or— but actually, just by its very nature, we are all diverse. There's no two of us are exactly the same. So it's really interesting that, as you said there, letting people bring their whole selves to work.

Absolutely. And I think, you know, for a second I wouldn't say that those headings of diversity are not important.

No, of course not.

And I know you're not saying that either. I think it's really important that we do remember all of those headings, and especially for minority groups that can sometimes be overlooked, it's really important that as leaders we think about that. But actually, when you sit around a table then, even if you have all the various minorities represented— so if I think of, you know, sitting on the board within the IMF or within the World Bank, you're sitting with 24 other nationalities representing 187 different countries. But to really get that diversity and to really make it happen in practice, that takes work because you really want people to be included. And I think To me, inclusion breeds diversity. If you're very good at inclusion, diversity automatically follows. But it's very hard to be very good at inclusion, and I think we can really understate what's involved in actually being really inclusive. Things take longer, you need to encourage people to express diverse views, you need to operate— some people prefer to have lots of material in advance and think about people, some people prefer to do on the hoof. So you have to cater for all those different ways that people can bring their best selves to whatever it is. And the best part, I think, about inclusion is that it means that people disagree with you. And I think it's a really bad sign in an organisation where you don't have people with different views and people who feel that they can disagree with you. And of course, the higher up you go in an organisation,, the harder it is to find people who will actually disagree with you. So I always say cherish those when you find them, encourage it, call it out in meetings and let people see that this is a way that you like business to be done.

Yeah, it's okay. I remember I did a course on unconscious bias back in my days in AIB and it just kind of popped back into my mind last week when I read your piece that you'd written on diversity, having having had Focus Ireland here. And I just thought it was really interesting, the story that you told about when you asked that senior leader to name, I think it was a leader that really, really kind of stuck out for him, and there were no female leaders among the people that he brought to bear. It was all male leaders that just popped into his head. It's a funny one.

And again, the visual then is all about that. It is male leaders. So I think the more women that we do see in senior positions, the more that you can— that other women can then say, oh, okay, yeah, maybe I can do that. But then I think it's really important not to say, I can do that like that woman. I think it's really important to say, I can do that like me. But the visual empowers you to say, actually, women can do those positions, you know. And I've worked with some, some very, um, strong women And Christine Lagarde, of course, brings to mind, working with her at the IMF, a person who hugely supports other women and is very collaborative in making sure that she includes women in decision-making, etc. But at the same time, while I very much admire her, I like to bring my own style, and I would really encourage people to bring their own style.

Of course, of course. So let's kind of talk a little bit more about the role of leaders, because as you mentioned, you know, as an organization, you are going through significant change at the moment, as lots of organizations are. And I often say that if you're not going through change, then actually something's wrong, because your customers are going to be changing, your suppliers are changing, the world in which we live is changing all the time. But I just wondered, during that change, I wonder what your take is on the role role that leaders play as they're steering the ship through that turbulent water of change? You know, and not necessarily leaders at your level, but leaders through an organisation. What's their role?

I think the biggest role of leaders in a change process is focusing on the vision. So really looking at where are we going? Why? Because people can get on the treadmill of change and not really understand why are we doing all this. You know, so as we start off, maybe everybody's together and everybody understands, but then as you're down in the detail of making it happen, you can almost forget what it's all about and where exactly is that North Star that you're heading towards. So I would say the biggest part of a leader at that stage, both at my level and in terms of my leadership team, is keeping that vision alive. Now, I'm really fortunate I have a fantastic leadership team here in the IOB, and people really care about us. It's an organisation which has a lovely— we talk a lot about culture— it's an organisation that has a fabulous culture in the sense that people here are very learner and member focused, is one of our values, but it'd be there if we never called it out as a value, it's always there. People want to do the best thing for our members and our learners, and I think that vision is always held by the leadership team, and indeed I would say by every member of staff. People are really, really clued into that and say we want to provide that better offering, we want to make something that's really good for them. And there's a great buzz then, I think, once the innovation gets going. So the other role, I think, during change is to keep the excitement up. So, you know, people are working really long hours here, they're giving a huge amount of commitment to what they're doing, But once the excitement is there, everybody feels a bit of a buzz about it, so everybody can see things. So when things are delivered, for me, it's really important to share that with the broader team. And no more than in day-to-day business, in change you can get some silos. So it's really important to keep an eye out to say, okay, within that, we want to make sure that we spread out all of the good things that are happening in the organization. And for people to see that. And then the other piece I would say is watching out for people to make sure, like, again, we're devoting a huge amount of our internal resources to this, and at the same time people are keeping our business as usual on the road. So I want to be very careful to make sure that we're looking out to see where are the stresses in the system and working to help each other. One of the big words we use here a lot is trust. So if we can trust each other within the team to do the bits that each other has to do, then I think as a team we can really succeed through this process. So we spend quite a bit of time actually talking about trust, you know, talking about trust in small groupings within the leadership team and making sure that each person can be trusted within their role to deliver. And that's, I think, how we sort of watch each other's backs, let's put it that way.

Brilliant. And I think, you know, for me, that was great. And that whole piece around keeping the vision alive and keeping the excitement levels up. One thing that I've seen lots of organizations do very badly is not celebrate wins, is, you know, saying to people, well, you know, in a year's time we'll have achieved X, or in 2 years' time we'll have achieved Y. No, what will we have achieved 'Next week or next month.' And then when we get there, let's say, 'Yay!' and celebrate that moment because it's important, right?

It is important. It's hugely important. And I think people need to feel that. But on the other side of that, I think Scott is also allowing people to say, 'Yes, we're celebrating that, but actually, you know, that was a bit of a bumpy road and I didn't like this and I didn't like that.' I think it's important that people can actually share that with the team and that we don't go putting a gloss on things when it's not actually true. So yes, celebrate the successes, but also let's talk about the bit of pain we had getting from A to B. It's important to actually acknowledge that as you go through it. The other thing that really strikes me in the change process, and it very much strikes me here in IOB, is people always, no matter how high your expectations are, people always surprise on the upside. I love to see people blossom and grow, and people have taken taking on roles here that are very much outside their comfort zone, but they're taking it on with a sense of vigour and excitement and upskilling in a way that just, I think, puts a smile on my face and everybody else's.

Yeah, and that whole piece around driving pride, I think, you know, we all want to do a great job.

Exactly.

And be proud of the work that we do.

Exactly.

For the organisation. We, when we first met probably a year and a half ago, we spent a lot of time talking about corporate narrative. And for those listeners who don't know what corporate narrative is, it's a way and a process to try and help organisations through change by describing where they've been, where they're going, and the role of their people in getting there, but done very much in a graphical way and actually built from the staff and by the staff. You decided to go down that route and create a corporate narrative for the IOB to try and bring staff on that change journey. I'm wondering how, you know, why you made that decision and how it's helped you to tell that story of change in the organisation.

Well, I really do believe in the power of story to connect people to purpose and to mission, but again on the change, I think I spoke earlier on about saying, you know, you can lose sight of the vision. What is it we're really trying to do? There's an awful lot of jargon around change, so there's a lot of words that people use Including actually words like purpose, you know, because people don't use that in their everyday lives. So to really connect people to what it is we're trying to do, I think was why we dived into this exercise with you in Inspiring Change. I don't think I was quite sure what the outcome was going to be, Scott, but I'm happy to say it was a fabulous outcome.

Phew! I'm still sitting here, so that's good.

So the engagement was fabulous. So running the workshops with the team and in particular helping the team to work, and we spoke about a vision, but this is an actual visual of the vision. So actually helping the teams to say, what is it about the organization that we, the team and the staff, believe needs to change? And the reality of it is there are people who are here for many years who are absolute experts in what they do, and they really are the ones who can tell me and everybody else what needs to change. So this was a brilliant opportunity to gather that within this visual exercise, and then to look at, well, where are we going? What does that mean for the future? So what it really did was bring our strategy to life. So we worked through the strategy and the 5 goals that we had within the strategy with the team, and people loved the collaboration of it, had a bit of fun doing the workshops, and ended up with a great pictorial reference which we use all the time. So for example, you know, people say, oh, is it just a picture up on the wall, and, or it's a screensaver, or what is it? And, but for example, um, at the end of the year, as we were celebrating our various achievements We got some postcards made of the visual of the story, and we asked everybody to write on the back of it how some other individual in the organization had contributed to that during that year. So every single person in the organization got some card to say, 'You specifically contributed to the story that we're building in the following way.' And I was actually very touched because some of my team also gave me some postcards, which I still have on my desk and are very inspiring to me.

What a lovely way to bring that to life through recognition.

Exactly.

I am totally going to steal that idea because that's a great idea. And it actually just goes to show how something like, you know, yes, you can absolutely, as an organization, go down this route, do a narrative, stick it up on the wall. And the journey ends there. And actually, I've spoken to clients before and my response has been, you know what, keep the money.

Yeah, yeah.

Because I'm actually not interested in working with an organization that just sees it as gloss, to use your term. But being able to take it and base elements and things like recognition on it and your briefings and all sorts is a brilliant way to bring it to life.

And to me, the beauty of it is the simplicity. So actually boiling it down into something really very simple makes it much more powerful. So the messages within it are very powerful. We're very clear about what we don't want to do, and we're very clear about what we do want to do. And sometimes, you know, in corporate speak, we can get very carried away with a lot of detail. What's lovely about this is the messaging in it and the way the values are built in. So, so So Scott, I think when you were working with the team on this, one of the important things was building in the values along the way to make sure they were values that were meaningful to us. And as part of our output, you'll recall, you gave us a board with our values written on it. Now again, many corporates have boards with values on it, but we have ours just down at the end of the corridor there. And every day somebody writes something on it. I think almost every day. I think I write something almost every day about how a person has lived the values. And then it's done in sort of whiteboard format, so we wipe it out then at the end of the week and start again the following week. And at the end of last year, I wondered how this was going down. Did people think this was okay? Was it a bit corny? Was it still working for people? And so I asked the team, various members of the team, what do they think about it, and I was really struck by one team member said to me, "Oh no, keep that values board. I'm really hoping to be on that someday." Oh, bless. And I'm delighted to say that that person was on it very shortly after that.

Excellent.

So, you know, people do watch who's on it, and if somebody is on it, they, you know, "Oh, you're up on the values board." And so again, it's just really, really bringing it to life. Of the things that value and that matter to us. And again, trying to keep the language plain and simple around it.

Absolutely. It's motivational, it drives pride, and it gives your internal comms people here a source of stories all the time, coming from the people, by the people.

Absolutely. And of course, all of that means nothing unless people see that the decisions that we make really conform with those values. So again, You know, we're very careful to say on the one hand we do things like that to reinforce the values, but on the other hand we need to be able to demonstrate that all our decisions are made. So we actually use our values, use the words around us, use our purpose as we make decisions and just get into a bit of a cadence around that. So it's very normal for us to do it.

Great. You mentioned earlier on when we talked about, you know, some of the buzzwords that fly around the place like values or culture and vision and mission and all the other corporate buzzspeak that happens. One of the things that's really out there at the moment, which for me is fundamental to an organization's success, and of course Peter Drucker very famously said in the 1980s that culture eats strategy for breakfast, and I think that in all the organizations that you've worked in, you've seen that you can put together the best strategy in the world, but if the organizational culture says, "Nah, no." I don't think so. It's just never going to happen. It's like pushing water up a hill. So I wonder, what does culture mean to you and what is a good one? And for those listening, I'm doing that thing with my fingers. What does a good one look like or what does it feel like?

Okay, well, let me first of all say that when you were talking about culture being a buzzword, I should give a plug to our cultural programs here. So we in the Institute looked at whether or not it was appropriate for us to enter the culture fray, as it were, when the regulator was looking at culture within the banks. And we decided that it was, because the Financial Stability Board and others were saying, you know, one key part of having an effective culture is the education piece of it. So we do provide two programmes on culture. One is at Level 7, which is intended for everybody in financial services, and that covers ethics and behaviours, very much around behaviours. A lot of that is online with one big workshop where people then apply the learnings that they have. The other piece though is at a Level 9. Now this is a UCD accredited programme, so there's serious academic rigour and an exam at the end of it, and what I'm delighted to say is that at chief executive and C-suite level, we've had huge take-up and waiting lists for that particular program, which is right across the financial sector. So it's really great to see leaders engaging in that debate, looking at ethical issues, decision-making, and all of that, and taking it seriously, and taking it really, really seriously. So if I bring that back then to our own organization, and one thing I'm always really conscious of is as an organisation, if we're putting out information, for example, on culture, then I always look and say, well, how are we doing ourselves? Similarly on risk, how are we doing ourselves? So I always look at how are we doing ourselves. And on the culture side, the first thing to say about culture is I don't think there's such a thing as what I would call good. I think you can have effective cultures and cultures that are effective, and I don't think you're ever there. So I think it is something that you must always work on, because apart from the culture that you experience as you walk into an organisation, which you know within 20 minutes of coming into an organisation, there's of course tonnes of subcultures. You know, I'm part of this group that goes for coffee, or I'm part of that team that pride ourselves in something else. So there's always subcultures within the culture. So I think you could never ever get complacent about a culture in an organisation. And when you ask me there, what is it? I do like that phrase of, it's the way we do things. And the thing about that is it's really subtle, it's often not seen, but it sounds so simple when you say it's the way we do things. You say, oh, that's fine, we can just change the way we do things. But of course it's not. It's like anything to do with leadership or management. When you're talking about people, the beauty of people is is that people are very complex. So changing the way that people behave or interact with each other is a really complex thing. So worthwhile, of course, but it is a very complex issue to get right. So I think when you do want to address cultural issues, and like every organization, we want to address cultural issues here, we want to make our culture much more effective, and in going through a change process we're going to be facing the market in a different way, and that also requires changes of culture. So, but I think if you have people who are open to that, then you're halfway there. But I, I wouldn't for a second say that these things are easy or can be done quickly, because anything that I think is related to people and human behavior takes much longer. And, and of course we now move out of the area of, you know, business and very much into the area of psychology, sitting alongside business and saying, well, how do we address these particular behaviors?

And of course, there's a role for leaders. I think every day you're right, it is. It isn't something I remember on the very, very first episode of this podcast. I had Mary Davis on, the CEO of Special Olympics. And she said, you know, it's funny that people still see culture often as something that you can schedule for 9 to 10 on a Tuesday morning. I've done my culture.

Absolutely.

And plainly, you can't do that.

No.

You know, I've done my leadership, I've done my culture, I've done my internal communications, or I've done my employee engagement. It's just the way you do things. So I wonder from your perspective, what are some of the things that leaders have to be doing to shape that culture?

Well, I think it probably goes back to the point I made earlier on. I think I cannot emphasize enough how I believe that inclusion is really, really important. And in my experience, in various parts of my career where I've seen inclusion work really well, then the culture is so much more effective. You'll sometimes hear the phrase of, you know, 'So-and-so, they weren't really a good fit for this organization.' And what that kind of means is they didn't really think the same way as everybody else did. Well, actually, that person was probably the most valuable person to have there. Now, don't get me wrong, it's not as simple as that in the sense that you can have— if you have a person who doesn't ascribe to the values of the organization, well, then they aren't a good fit and they shouldn't be staying with the organization. But there are those who can fully ascribe to the values and have different points of view. And it takes longer to have that inclusion, as I was saying earlier on, but to me, to have an effective culture, you really do need that level of, am I really including people? And sometimes there's a sense check in that, and sometimes, for example, in team meetings, you have to go back and say, can we remember now why we're here? We're here as this particular team, as opposed to we're here in our silos. And just sort of ask people to remember that. And for me, whenever I've asked people to move, you know, a centimeter more towards bringing their real authentic self in, people just blossom. I think people really, really do blossom, and that's not a thing that we do every day. In fact, I would say sometimes even working on, "What the heck do you mean by your authentic self? What is that?" Pausing, spending time for reflection. We're in a change process, as I said, you were really busy, there's very, very little time for reflection, but again for me that's something that I now really, really value. So I think sitting back, thinking about how did things go, how could they have gone better, are we really bringing everybody along the change road, have we heard everybody's point of view. That pause for reflection is really important to develop an effective culture.

I couldn't agree more. And it's, for me, that time of reflection, that time of— I spend so much time running workshops and sessions with clients, and more often than not, we come back to self-awareness as a theme for leaders, that people actually sitting and reflecting and thinking, could I have handled that different? Or better, or when that person said that, maybe that was a signpost that I should have done something different or said something different or thought something different. If you don't have time to do that, if you don't prioritize that thinking time, that reflection time, because you're too busy doing, I believe you're not going to be as effective a leader.

Absolutely, absolutely. And we did some work with, so we've a fabulous behavioral psychologist who works on our culture programme here, and she did some work with us internally, and one of the things that I found very powerful in that was an analysis of how are your decisions made, how do you make your decisions, and looking at how those decisions were made here, and we all sort of tore them apart a bit and said, well, you know, what do we like, what do we not like about it, and that for me made a difference in terms of the reflection piece of saying, actually, how do we make— is that a good way? Do we always— and how do we know it's the best decision? Like, what, what journey did we take to understand that? So that's been a very valuable learning experience for us as well.

Brilliant. Last couple of questions. You're conscious of your time. Who are your leadership role models? Who are the people for you that are really up there? And I know, and you absolutely rightly said, it's not about copying somebody else's leadership style because you need to have that authenticity. But I think there are definitely leaders, and I'm sure you've got some in your head, who you look to and think the way they do this or the way they do that is particularly impressive, something that you'd maybe like to emulate.

Well, there are definitely some that come in and out of my head from time to time, but I really do caution around role models, and I think that's something that's come to me with maturity. If you'd have asked me the same question 10 years ago, I probably would have listed off 2 or 3, but now I'm actually really, really cautious in doing that because actually as I look at them, then that say, "Oh, they're a great leader," or "X person is a great leader." I have fantastic leaders who inspire me in this organization, really fabulous leaders in this organization. Other people don't see them lead on a day-to-day basis, but I get as much inspiration from them as I do from the very public leaders who are external. And because I really truly believe that people need to bring their authentic self, I'm really hesitant to say X or Y is what it looks like.

Brilliant. What a great result. You're the first person in 35 episodes that hasn't just listed off.

I refuse to give you a name. Just hasn't listed off.

I'll come back to this later. Very last question. What's the one piece of leadership advice that you would give to your 20-year-old self? Something you know now that you think would have been really useful to know back then.

Well, you won't be a bit surprised to hear that it is be your authentic self. Now, at 20, I probably wouldn't have known what my authentic self was. Yeah. So I might have gone a bit further in my advice and said, take a bit of time to figure out what your authentic self is. And again, at 20, remembering myself at 20, I might have phrased it differently because authentic wouldn't have been a word that would have resonated with me. So I probably would have said at that time, take a bit of time to find out what it is that really motivates you, what it is that really energizes you, and devote as much time as possible to that while pausing every so often to say, are you on the right road? Is that the way you're doing it? Be really true to the things that you care about, which we now call values. Brilliant.

I will be taking that extremely sage advice and using it with my 14-year-old daughter.

Good luck with that, Scott.

The joys of teenagers, huh? Thank you very much for taking the time today. Listeners, if you want more information on the IOB, if you're based here, IOB.ie is the website, and you can get details of all the courses there. Mary has also been good enough previously to record a little video about their experience of working with me on corporate narratives. If you want to hear a little bit more about that, you can go to inspiringstories.ie, and that's up there too. All that's left for me to do now is to say, Mary, thank you so much for being part of this podcast today. I've really appreciated it. Love the responses, love the answers. It's It's been really nice talking to you.

Thanks a million, Scott.

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