48 | Tips on leadership and purpose from an Irish rugby legend

Welcome to the Inspiring Change Podcast, where I talk to leaders about internal communications, engagement, leadership, and the role they all play in creating amazing cultures.

I think we've moved away from this kind of charismatic leader, believe in me type stuff, right? I think we've moved into kind of a being a compassionate leader, being an agile and compassionate leadership. I think the two traits that are huge now, I think compassionate leadership is going to be really, really important over the next few years.

Hi there, my name is Scott McInnes, and you are very very welcome to this episode of the Inspiring Change Podcast. For those of you who've listened to a few of these episodes, and I, I do know there are a couple of you out there, um, you'll know that we spend a lot of time talking about the importance of leaders. And for me, they are some of, if not the most important people in organizations. They are the glue that binds together often the CEO, the senior management, and the employees. They are the people that can bring relevance and context to messages coming down from the top of the organization. They are the ones that bridge to that gap. But often, and I've heard, well, if any of you are listening, I've heard you unfairly described before as things like the marzipan layer, the permafrost, the flabby middle. And what always amazes me is that we throw people into people leader positions. We throw people, we give them teams, we say to them, you know, let's, you're now senior, you've been in your role for a long time, you know, you now have to have a team. And you may have been really good in your role as a very senior lawyer or IT person or somebody that worked in compliance or maybe even in HR. And you've no interest or indeed no skills in leading a team yet, because you're senior, you're fully expected to lead a winning team. Now, that's a tough one, because what we need to do actually is provide our leaders with skills and confidence and tools to be able to be that leader, to be able to be that person. And I'm really excited about today's guest who knows all about winning teams. He is a former Irish rugby captain. He won 95 caps. He was, interestingly enough, on a quick Google, the 1,000th player to wear the Irish jersey. He's done 2 Lions tours, won a Grand Slam, won a Six Nations Championship, and that was all alongside playing nearly 230 matches for Leinster. Now, don't panic, any of you who are not into rugby, this is not, I promise, going to be a rugby conversation, 'cause it's not what he wants, not what I want, so that's good. This is all about leadership, because today, since he wrapped up his career due to injury a few years back, His focus has been very much on resilience, on the power of people, on executive and leadership coaching, on focus on high performance. So I'm delighted to welcome to the cast today Jamie Heaslip. Jamie, how are you getting on?

I'm very well. I'm going to apologize to anyone who's listening to us. COVID problems. My next-door neighbor is renovating the house. And our next-door neighbor is renovating her house. So you might hear some banging in the background or something like that. It literally feels like they're going to come through the wall. Most days here, but such is the joys of COVID and working from home. But yeah, no, I'm really honored, humbled to be on this show. We were talking offline, obviously, about other guests that you've had, and I was, you know, I was just saying I'm a bit of a fanboy of Fionnuala, who you had on, obviously, and how she steered the ship so well. In her own authentic leadership kind of way and style in Google. So it's always been, it's always great to talk about different people that you've been around and what you picked up along the way.

Yeah, brilliant stuff. And I think there's always, you know, I always say that if people only learn one or two things from these casts, from all the guests that we've had on, then you know what, we've done a good job. So let's hope that's the case today. So listen, why don't we kick off? The really easy one I always kick off with is just letting you maybe give us a couple of minutes about yourself, your journey, and where you are now and what you're up to.

That's great. Well, where do I start? Where do you want me to start? Do you want the last— the change and/or forced change upon me over the last 2 years, the last 7 months like everyone else, or kind of coming out of school and going pro until now?

Let's go back to rugby days. Let's go back to rugby days and take it from there.

Yeah, OK. That's an easy— that's probably easier than trying to break apart the last 2 years, if I'm honest. Um, definitely mentally easier if I'm really honest. Um, you know, I came out of school 17, and literally 2 weeks after me doing a Leaving Cert, my mom— my dad was based in Belgium with the army, and he was like, uh, mom was like, right, you're done now, um, we've gotten you out of school and into college, good luck. So she heads over to Belgium, gives me a house at 17 to myself in, um, in Neisse, and it was great. It was fantastic. But very quickly I learned about the power of taking ownership, the power of taking— of realizing what it is you want to get after. And that, yes, you can have amazing resources around you and you can lean into some of them, use them. But essentially, you know, the universe doesn't— or the universe does reward being specific about what you want. And leading by example, leading yourself by example, if I'm honest. So from that point on, because at that stage I'd come out, I'd actually got passed up by the Irish Leinster Academy, and, you know, kind of felt, you know, I was lucky, I was playing in Trinity, but, you know, had been passed over by a couple of other clubs, and Trinity gave me a shot. And it was that point in time that I kind of went, right, I'm going to put a flag in the ground here and I'm going to get after it. Um, and I'm, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it in my way. And so I went off, studied medical mechanical engineering, played at Trinity, had a great time, ended up turning down— ironically ended up turning down 2 contracts, um, or actually 3 over 2 years in my last 2 years of college because I felt like I'd made a commitment to finish it. Um, Yeah, my dad helped me kind of see that a little bit clearer in the last— especially in after third year.

I love how parents help their kids to see things clearly, in inverted commas.

Yeah, and it's amazing that I listened, if I'm honest. Like, that— like, when I think back, like, essentially he was like, look, if you're good enough now— to give you context, uh, we'd gone to the U21 World Cup final, first time an Ireland team ever got to an U21 World Cup final. We lost against New Zealand. Players that might be known against— that were playing for New Zealand at the time were Jerome Kaino, Luke McAllister, Ben Atiga, Jimmy Goddard was playing, um, these kind of guys. Basically, there was like 3 of them that were playing in the All Black team that November when we played them in June. And I was lucky enough to be nominated World Player of the Year, um, alongside Jerome and Luke. Jerome ended up winning it, um, And that's, you know, my dad— that's when I started getting offers. My dad was like, look, if you do another year, you'll be done, in the bag, and you can focus on rugby. And it kind of gave me my first insight into, again, like, taking ownership on it and doing it the way you want to do it, essentially, and carve it out that way. And but not doing it on your own, uh, more important— most importantly. And then, you know, kicked off the career, and, and, um, you know, things, things went well for me. Um, You know, started, I got my first game in Leinster 2005, got capped in 2006, and didn't really get capped again until, um, I get really break into the Ireland team in 2008. And, um, then from 2008, I, I was lucky to, to be part of, um, some amazing teams under some amazing coaches and leaders and captains, um, up until— I mean, the last game I actually played is in 2017 when I got injured, and then I had to retire in 2018 off the back of that, um. Back at that event. And, uh, yeah, since then, I, I, I probably, like, in, in a really weird way, when I look back on rugby, um, I'm not— I'm very grateful, actually. So a lot of people are very like, what's, um, what do you miss about it, or do you miss anything about it? And I was like, actually, to be honest, no, because I realized how lucky I was, um, to have pretty much no injury throughout my, my career. And then ironically get a career-ending injury. But to be a part of so many teams, play so many games, and learn so many lessons along the way, it was great. So I just look back and fond the whole picture of the journey going, that was an amazing experience, learned a lot, but now let's turn the page and go on to the next chapter. And they say the 3 most stressful things you're meant to, um, you're meant to go through basically are your change of career, having a kid, and moving house. I did all 3 in just space of 6 months while— when I finished rugby.

Yeah. And you still look okay, you still look sane.

I went— well, at the time, I remember the lads, I remember the lads, I went down in— I was at some game that November. I retired in like February, March, and I was at some game in like November, and I remember Keane Healy turned around to me going, you look like Skeletor.

Wasn't he quite ripped though? I'd actually take— I'd nearly take that as a compliment, in fairness.

That, yeah, yeah, yeah. You remember the classic He-Man, that's the one I thought. But no, I think it was more like more bony than ripped. And like, but that whole period was challenging. But I knew the direction I wanted to go and I knew the map, kind of had a roadmap to how I wanted to get there. And working for a big company like Google was part of that roadmap. And I was really like, I didn't think, like, I had to do the interviews, 4 interviews back to back. It was mental. Challenging within, was there for 14 months, learned loads, and then decided to come out and kind of further develop myself by stepping out of actually the Google bubble and kind of pursuing the original roadmap. And that's kind of how I've ended up here as, depending on the day of the week, I'm doing different things, but the thing that takes up most of my time is coaching. High performance coaching is a funny one because, you know, performance and wellness are the same one thing and kind of in part of what my philosophy is about. And, you know, it's what I know for the last 20 years. So it's kind of, it's bringing the business part that I've learned along the way by investing in businesses, by setting up businesses, and then being at the tip of the spear when it comes to high performance environments from rugby and blending those two now through coaching with people.. And it's really, really rewarding. Really, really. I'm laughing that I call myself a coach because when people go, oh, you're coaching rugby, I was like, that, I, for some reason, coaching rugby like just gives me the shivers.

No, that's somebody else's job.

Yeah. I was like, no, like coaching isn't, coaching as in rugby coaching isn't for me. Coaching people to be at their best and looking at it from a 360 perspective and letting them unlock all their potential and chase those dreams.

That's—

yes, I'm all about that. Doing it on a rugby field, maybe not.

So let's explore that for a second. Let's explore people being at their best, because you talk about coaching high-performance leaders. You've obviously come from that background, as you said, the sharp end of the spear. What do you define what high performance actually is? How do you define that when it comes to high-performance leadership?

It's really— look, you can use all sorts of models and go, well, there are basic elements of high-performance teams, all right? And we can get into that. But when it comes to the individual, it's kind of like when I ask you, you know, what is wellness? You know, you might say, oh, it's all about your mental health. Someone might say it's all about having balance between work and life. And all the— it's very specific to the person or the situation or the context. And so I think it's very hard for you to— it's not right for me, I should probably say, to say what exactly it is. I mean, we can talk about the 5 elements of high performance performance teams, trust, accountability, healthy conflict, results-driven organization, so on and so forth. So you can get into all them. But again, even those words mean different things to different people. But I've definitely picked up a lot being around good leaders, being around bad leaders, being around good teams, being around bad teams, being around good cultures and bad cultures. And sport is a great way of— it's like life in fast forward, you know what I mean? It's like business in fast forward because you're playing every week, week in, week out, right? So the end product, like your end of quarter results are every weekend essentially. And you win, you lose, and then you got to quickly go again. You got to learn the lessons. That's where accountability comes in. That's where honesty comes in. That's where vulnerability actually comes in. Those Monday morning reviews, I tell you, I mean, you got to set up How do I put this? It's— you've got to be such— you've got to set up such a good environment that's safe, like psychologically safe, so that people can be honest and can try things. But then you've got to hold yourself accountable to the kind of the outcomes and values and ways that you've always— that you've all agreed on. Um, and, and then you have to do that throughout the season. So then as, as the season has its peaks and its troughs, you've got to stay at a certain standard. And that's where wellness comes in, because you've got to look at the bigger picture. You can't have your foot foot to the floor all season because you'll just, you'll burn people out. They'll break down. And you want that car to respond to you when you do put the foot down. So you got to manage that energy and manage what you're prioritizing and what you're dialing up, what you're dialing down depending on the seasons. And then when you zoom right out to the macro view, it's like, how do you create a legacy? You know what I mean? Or in sporting terms, how do you create a dynasty? By being successful over the real long table, like over the seasons. And that's really interesting. And it's really, that's where I find a lot of joy, bringing those kind of metaphors and lessons into the business world, into the coaching world.

Because everything you've just said there, I could take the whole past couple of minutes and I could overdub where you said sport or rugby, I could overdub that with the word business. And the same would stand Absolutely true, that whole idea, you know, and it's interesting, you say, you know, we're not based on quarterly or half-year results. Actually, really good leaders in business aren't based on quarterly or half-year results either. They're sitting down with their teams every week, every couple of weeks. Right, lads, what have we achieved this week? We've got a shared common goal, something that we're all going after. You know, we've agreed we're going to do X, Y, and Z. We've agreed that we're going to do it like this. We're going to hold each other accountable. We're going to have open and honest conversations. We're going to try some new stuff. And you know what? If it doesn't work, we're going to try something different. And we're going to learn from our mistakes. So really good leaders are doing exactly the same stuff.

Yeah. And it's funny, like when you look at, you know, how do you be successful over that long term? It is having some sort of purpose, I suppose. I think having a really clear purpose is really important to— like having the company having a purpose and then yourself, you know, and how you align them up, I suppose, and how that fits in. And then from that purpose, you can get your values and your guidelines. And then you can understand what your strengths are and how you dial them up. Like a really simple exercise for teams is using the PERIL model, you know what I mean? Looking at, you know, the purpose, external environment, external kind of factors, internal factors, relationships, and then how that all comes together, you know what I mean? That's really quick and easy and how do you say, dirty model on how you do it. And at the center of all that is obviously your leadership and the quality and the behaviors. And you can do that on a team, then you can do that like as yourself. But I was working with someone the other day and I wasn't coaching them, we were just kind of having a catch-up. And they're asking me, you know, what are their 2021 goals? Are you starting to form them? And I was like, well, actually I have 20, 30 goals. 2025 goals, 2023, then '21, and then literally I break it down by quarter. So I was like, I can tell you right now what the Q4 goals are for me. You know what I mean? And I was like, that's how— I mean, you might change, that 10-year might change, but you need some sort of direction. That's where purpose comes in, I think, and really helps you be that North Star.

And I love— and again, on this podcast, we talk about North Star a lot and we talk about purpose a lot. And I love the fact that if you can get somebody behind— I was only speaking about this this the other day, and I still can't say the word defibrillator. I'm sure that's not right.

Just say it quick and no one notices.

Yeah, there is that. So, you know, I'm working for a client at the moment that has— that's a plastic injection molding company, and they basically make parts for defibrillators. And there I go again. And I kind of said to them, you know, it's not about putting plastic beads into a machine and pulling out a piece of plastic at the end. Actually think further on that, apply a bit of human, and think about the lives that potentially have been saved because of the work you've done, or perhaps the lives that have been lost because you haven't done your job quite so well. That's a real motivator for me to make sure that people just go that extra maybe yard or two at the end of a shift, you know, and really, really make a difference. You talk there about leadership traits, and, you know, on this podcast, people often hold up vulnerability and humility as two of the big leadership traits of really, really strong leaders. What's your take on that, vulnerability and humility?

I mean, it's hard to argue with those two. But when it comes to leadership, you know— sorry, a really good way of actually— I prefer to talk about it is almost like how— what are the lessons that I've learned? Like, I always try and— I love metaphors. As you can see from behind me, this is how my brain works.

I need to see stuff. Right? Just for listeners, just from a listener's perspective, Jamie has a wall of pictures behind him where he— because you won't be able to see this, obviously. He's just realized that. Yeah, he's just realized that he has a wall of pictures and doodles up behind him, which is him bringing to life his strategy for the next 12 months. So there we go, picture painted. Thank you, Jamie.

There you go. But I mean, it's— I'm just laughing, going, oh, like, come on, Einstein. And yeah, so I am quite visual. So I need to see things, I need to use metaphors. That's how my brain works, right? I'm an engineer by trade. So, and And someone like— so I kind of use the language that we use in rugby sometimes when I'm talking about— so like, leave the jersey in a— like, what are the leadership lessons? So leave the jersey in a better place. What's that to me? To me, that's all about purpose and how— let's say when I was working— we were working with Joe, how Joe— well, actually, I'll go back to Cheka. How Cheka initially, like, he came across this kind of group. Environment was quite toxic. There was little silos, you know, little cliques going on. And he was all about passion in the jersey, being proud of what you're wearing. And then Joe elevated that to like, okay, this is not your jersey, this is all part of what we're trying to do here. These are our values. Instill the values in the jersey that every time you get a chance, someone else feels like they've got to do that. And that was the purpose. And then Stuart comes along, and Stuart was like, literally, both— and I love that both of us was like, 'We have 3 stars in that jersey. We want 5.' You know what I mean? And that was real clear, you know, that's the legacy we're going to create with this, that's the dynasty we're going to create with this. So leave the jersey in a better place. Find what your purpose is. And the next one I like to talk about is like leading by example. So that's what I would have very much— like, what's on your jersey every day? What are people saying is on your jersey every day? So that's like, how do you— like, what are your values? Are you clear on what your values are? You know, humility. It's funny you say humility. Humble, disciplined, and relentless were the 3 values in Joe's tenure, and they changed as they've gone along, right? And it's important that you bring the group on that and the group decide what that is, so they own it and that they carry it through. Another one would be like, manage your season. You know, we talked about that already in terms of wellness, in terms of how you manage the ups and downs. How you look after yourself, control the controllables. So we talk about resources, we talk about that sphere of influence in terms of what can you actually control, what can you influence, and what are the things you just have to accept? You know what I mean? Comfortable in chaos. So that's all about having a lack of regret. So they make the decision, they put the work in, they put the processes in, and then you see how it falls and you own how that that falls. Because like, take a game, you can be the team— take the weekend, for example, Munster versus Edinburgh, right? Edinburgh were probably the better team for the majority of the game, but Munster got ahead in the 77th minute, you know what I mean? And they win it. And you can be either side of that a lot of times, but it's more like you've got to have faith in the work that you've done and how you've done it, I suppose. Then Looking back to move forward, that's kind of where the vulnerability, humility again comes in, the honesty, you know, that Monday morning review and being honest, owning mistakes, owning like good things and not just focusing on the mistakes. Actually, I'm very much a strengths-based coach, so we look on how we can bring the positives and use them now going forward and learn But that's a big— that's like what comes into that is like your fixed versus growth mindset, that sort of things. And then, you know, also you got like— what's a great one I like to tell people? The video doesn't lie. So again, it comes back to honesty. It comes back to having clear objectives. It comes back to creating psychological safety for you to try things as well and not be afraid to fail. And the last one that I've kind of learned along the way is, again, you'll be laughing because I've made 8 of them in my head because of like how my brain works, is persistence beats resistance. So how you create a legacy. So that's down to the relentless nature. That's down to, you know, how we are what we do every day. We are what we repeatedly do. It's a little bit like leading by example, if I'm honest. But They're kind of like the top-line lessons that I would have pulled out of rugby along the way from some amazing leaders around the place. I mean, yeah, I could get into all sorts of different things that I did as tools and stuff, but they're kind of the top-line lessons, I suppose.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. Well, let's talk about one of your leaders. Let's talk about Joe Schmidt. You kind of touched on him there. With his values of humble, disciplined, and relentless. And whenever any of us watched Joe Schmidt sitting in the stand, you could have had a barnstorming game, or you could have had an absolute mare, and it was always the same picture of calm and humility and just, okay, fine, well, that's what's happened. Now, that's maybe not what it looked like in the changing rooms afterwards, but for me, it felt like there was a real quiet confidence compared to some of the other coaches that were around in his time. And I just wonder, what were some of his key leadership traits? What were some of the things that he did as a leader that contributed to your success?

A lot of them, a lot of them come from Joe, if I'm honest. Like the importance of values and the importance of living by those values and having an agreed set of values, how that feeds into your culture and how that that becomes the thing you're doing when no one watches. And that's really what culture is and the importance of it and how that— that's how you get lads doing the extra shit that, you know, you wouldn't do otherwise.

Totally.

You know what I mean? And he led by that, right? And he led by that decisive nature as well. Like, if you didn't train on a Tuesday, you didn't get picked. Right? And so you train Monday. It didn't really matter if you train Monday, but you have to train Tuesday because he was all about having, having that, um, giving people clarity and having clarity over what their role was and making sure then that they were on top of executing that. And then the importance of how all the sum of these parts make up the whole, and how like if you take your hand and you spread out your hand like getting a slap off a hand versus closing that, making a fist and getting punched in the face with a fist. It's so much that, that fist will go through the door, hand maybe not, you know what I mean? Um, and how that we're stronger together than as the individual parts, but you need the individual parts, of course, to make the team stronger. And that was like, I mean, we'd come from an environment that probably was a little bit cliquey, that probably had there was a couple of untouchables in it, and he cleaned that up.

Okay, I mean, I think certainly the level— to pardon the pun— the level playing field in teams is so, so important. I think where there's favoritism creeps in, or where there are those kind of untouchables or golden boys or golden girls in teams, you know, it does create division, and division of teams is not good.

No, no, no, no. And it's really important, like, depending on where you are, so that leadership team, how, you know, and that's where conflict is actually a good thing. So people think we all need to get along. That's not necessarily true. You do need to agree on what the goal or the outcomes that you're looking for are, all right. But having healthy conflict about how you do that part is actually really good. And making sure everyone gets their say in that and having a bit of conflict because it tests ideas, it tests The meaning, we often had debates over the meaning of values and the actions, what actions reflected that and what actions didn't and getting different points and testing that. But once that decision was made at that level, it was the same, it percolated down as the one message, if you understand me. And then, you know, because we are what we repeatedly do and we always look at the behaviors of the people, of our leaders, and they set the tone and those, We're funny, especially in the workplace. Whatever is the incentive, particularly in behaviors, if they're the ones getting rewarded, they're the ones you're going to game towards. Do you know what I mean? So making sure that you're rewarding them in reviews, in QBRs, whatever it is, is really, really important to getting that consistency going forward.

Yeah, we do lots of work with clients. We're just working with Enterprise Ireland defining their values and purpose. And I think I said to them at the very beginning of the conversation, you know, when we had this back at the end of last year, look, don't do this if these values are not going to be rolled into your hiring, your firing, your recognition, your, your everything. If they don't underpin your entire organization, don't do them. And I think for me that, and you touched on it there, the recognition one is so important. If you want people to exhibit and live a particular set of behaviors, they are the ones that you reward. They're the ones that you say, well done, Jamie, you did a great job on our one team value by working with Scott McInnes and Sarah McInnes and Jimmy McInnes on that piece of work you just did. That to me is where you really bring it to life. And I think you can very quickly— the exact flip side of the coin, you can very quickly undo all the good work you've done by rewarding people who aren't exhibiting those values or exhibiting the opposite.

And it's all about trying to understand what metrics matter, if I'm honest. It's like in a game. I mean, sometimes when you're watching, take rugby, sometimes you're watching rugby and the guys will go, oh, he's done 15 carries, what a great you know, he could have done 15 carries on an average half meter a carry when someone else was in a better position, or you know what I mean? Like, so it's all about what actually matters given the context and direction on what you want to achieve. And then like, that's where some really, like, in coaching, you know, particularly in the wellness, you're kind of going like, the needs of people are really, really different. You know, just take a framework like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. How are our needs are dependent on almost like our situation and our stage in life and where we are and what we need. So what is actually motivating us at that time? What do we actually need going forward? So that comes back to your original point when you asked me about performance and wellness. And that's why I come at it from a 360 perspective, because I think for you to be at your best, you've got to have a really, really balanced foundation. Okay? And that means then you can dial up and dial down as you go along. And you're always trying to get back to balance. Balance is all about perspective. It's all about what is it to you and how an organization then positions that in terms of financially rewarding you. Okay, you can do a certain amount of that. How about, how do they reward you? Can they reward you work-life? Can they reward you with more intangible type benefits? And intangible, that's where you could come in with your values. And you open up Pandora's box when it comes to it, but you do have to look at it. What are people's needs at that stage. And also, I don't think— a mistake people sometimes make is that they're quite linear. I actually think it's a little bit interchangeable, if you know what I mean. I actually don't think it's kind of up and to the right, like every curve.

No. And I think, again, back to the point that I made at the very top, and you were nodding furiously at the time when I was saying about leaders being the ones that— back to your Maslow's hierarchy of needs example, They're the ones that know what people on their teams are thinking, feeling, doing, if they're a good leader, at any given moment in time. They're the ones that know if you turn up dragging your feet because your dog has died or you're knackered because you've just had a baby or you've just moved house, had a baby and changed jobs all in 6 months. You know, they know that. So they're the ones that are best placed, arguably, to support you, to help you, and to make sure that you are the best that you can be. And in order for them to do that, they need to be, as we've discussed, the best that they can be.

Yeah, and emotional challenges is a huge thing there, you know, and your awareness levels, not just of yourself, but of your relationships, of others, the knock-on effect, points of view, and conflict. Why is there, you know, why is there conflict in a relationship potentially, you know what I mean? And not seeing it just from your point of view, which we all have a habit of doing. But there's so much there. But I think at the core of it, I think people respond to people being authentic.

Yep.

And if they— if I don't think you can fake it is what I'm trying to say. I don't think you can fake being, you know, caring about other people, you know what I mean? And you've got to care about other people.

We've both seen some people try, I suspect.

Well, yeah, and look, there is a lot of work by Amy Cuddy who's like fake it till you make it, it, right? And what she's saying is almost trying to like, not fooling your body, but trying to mirror or use a mentor or use someone else in terms of what would they do in that scenario. And if you do that often enough, then you habitualize the behaviors and habits. And to a certain degree, a good bit of it can be learned, but I think, you know, as a leader, it's definitely something you got to stay on top of in terms of increasing your emotional intelligence, increasing your self-awareness and awareness of others. And because a good leader, what's he doing? He's setting up, creating an environment for others to thrive. That's all.

Yeah. And I don't think— I think probably one of the biggest issues for me with leadership in organizations is that organizations don't realize that because what I hear more than anything else when I'm in with client groups is, "But Jesus, I'm very busy doing the day job to do the leadership stuff." No, no, no. The leadership stuff is the day job. But the trouble is organizations still heap a day job and a leadership job onto somebody's shoulders, which doesn't give them the chance or the scope potentially to focus on those really important things of clearing the way and creating great environments.

Yeah. I mean, it's not a perfect world. And life has a funny way of just kind of throwing things at us. But You know, being an effective leader really is trying to— like, we've moved— what I'm trying to say is I think we've moved away from this kind of charismatic leader, right? And being like, "Believe in me" type stuff, right? I think we've moved into kind of being a compassionate leader, being an agile— last 6 months, being an agile and compassionate leadership. I think the 2 traits that are huge now, and I think just over the next going forward, I think agility will always be a constant for every business. I think we've all learned that. But I think compassionate leadership is going to be really, really important over the next few years for a whole load of different reasons. But I think the last 7 months has thrown up plenty.

I think we've seen— I've certainly seen organizations where senior teams have really stepped back because they just weren't sure what to do now that people aren't in the office when they can't see them at their desks. Whereas there has been another group of leaders that have stepped up and stepped forward. And there's actually, there's a lady that I've got on the pod in a couple of weeks' time, and I'm sure she'll tell the story better than me. But in her organization, they just took their staff, they've about 120 staff, they split the staff into 10 groups because they had 10 leadership team members. And they gave 12 names to each person and said, here, just give them a ring, and ask them how they are. That's all. Don't check on work. Don't ask about— don't actually even mention work unless they bring it up necessarily. But just ring them and ask them how they are. And I don't think that's a question that we're very good at asking people.

Well, yeah. I mean, look at the challenges, right? We've gone from whatever, 9 to 5, 8 to 6, God knows what in between, to being physically close to each other, to we're now further apart than ever. And, you know, and that whole like power distance, that's a thing, you know what I mean? You know, where that, that power that you might have felt with someone who's above you or something has almost been reduced now because we're doing everything via media, via Zoom and stuff. And so, you know, how, how we get, how we get interaction and proper interaction off the back of that, like team meetings, you know, how do we You're all on a big Zoom call. How do you make sure people are involved and focused? Are they just appearing? Are they kind of, they have it on, but we all know the ones that have it on and you know well they're reading something else. They have no interest in that meeting. And how side conversations aren't happening now in front of you. They're happening in a WhatsApp, in a Slack channel. Distractions are less obvious. So there's lots of challenges, lots of problems there, but also Lots of opportunity, I think, because like you said, teams have stepped back and they've realized what we were doing doesn't work right now. So how do we reshape that going forward? Not just now for the next 6 months or 12 months, but when we do— when we're out the other side, whatever that looks like, What do we take that's really good here? And that's where that PERIL model is actually quite useful, I find, when I'm coaching teams particularly and leaders, doing a PERIL model to pause and kind of realign, realize there's a lot of anxiety, realize that we didn't realize how important those water cooler social interaction moments are to be a team. You know, all these small things, really, really important. That's where the compassionate leadership comes in.

Yeah, and they are really small things. And actually, I wrote about a lot of them. I had an article published in the Sunday Times last weekend about exactly this, about the fact that, yes, we are in a situation now where we're being made to work remotely, but the chances are, whenever we come out, whatever looking like coming out the other side looks like, that people are going to want some level of remote working. So we need to think differently about what a team structure looks like, what team communications looks like. Because at the moment what we're doing is we're still trying to do, and you picked the example there that I used as well, we're still trying to do team meetings on Zoom. We're looking at 8 head and shoulders and half the head and shoulders maybe haven't got their cameras on, half have. But actually what we're doing is we're not having a team meeting as we did sitting around a table having a cuppa. What we're doing is we're having a series of one-to-one conversations that everybody has to watch, which is a very different thing, which is why maybe I'm not quite as engaged. 'Cause if he's going around the room, then I'm just waiting for my turn. So I know that there's 3 people before me are gonna have their say before it gets to me and I have to have my say. So I'll just keep looking at asteroids or whatever I'm doing on the side of my phone. So we do need to think—

I like that one.

There we go. It's just showing off my age there. But we do need to think about things differently. Because I don't think Zoom is simply a different vessel or a different channel to do the same things we've always done. We can use it. It's a useful tool, as the share price plainly shows. But it's not the be-all and end-all. And I think people are seeing that it is. And that's going to be very damaging.

Well, it's interesting. So yes, the pendulum has swung completely the other way. But it's going to come back to somewhere. Somewhere, but it's not going to go back to where it was. But it's interesting to see, like something actually just really handy for people listening is actually agreeing with your team what channels you're going to use and for what. So you've got Slack, you've got Zoom, you've got this, you got that, you got WhatsApp, you got all these different things. But actually clarifying what channels are for what use is actually really good at just cleaning it up a little bit because I think we all rushed into this. Because we are forced to, you know, you take, you, you take work in general, you're forced into relationships that you wouldn't be in normally, okay? And so that's tough enough sometimes as it is. And then now you are forced into a scenario of, of working remotely, you know, given your scenario, you might have to be minding kids, you know, your, your partner could be working, so you're kind of managing that time. All that. But I think, you know, there's some good in it as well, um, in terms of the work-life balance, in terms of people thinking, hold on a second, do I have to be commuting, you know, an hour and a half, 2 hours, like, either side of work? So anywhere between, you know, 2 to 4 hours commuting a day, you know what I mean? You take 5 days, that's up to 20 hours, you know what I mean? That's a full working day that you could be doing you're using your time somewhere else. I think people are kind of realizing that. We were talking offline about the opportunities that potentially, once we kind of understood what was happening to a certain degree, I know we're in this VUCA world, so it's volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Once we kind of started establishing some sort of kind of vision it got us to a better place in terms of how we're going to work going forward and having the vision, the compassion around it, the agility around it, all really important lessons. But it comes back to what we opened it up with in terms of leadership. It's very, very important for the leader to lead by example on this and the leader to really make it a core If they don't make it important to them, it's not going to percolate down through the business.

Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think that to your point there, we've seen, I think, just how lots of people will say, well, we're not a very agile organization because we're very big. But I think that what this has shown over the past 7 months, particularly in those first couple of weeks or the first week or the first few days, the resilience and agility of people has been phenomenal to be able to just get stuff done. And maybe it's not perfect, but it's better than it was. Just looking at time, I'm gonna have just a last couple of questions just to think about. You know, when I think about, when I go back to that Ireland team briefly that you were on, there seemed to me that there was a huge amount of belief. There was a huge amount of belief in that jersey, in your coach, in each other. And I just think now that people people need a bit of that themselves, the regular Joes and Josephines at home with their kids doing homework. You know, I think we're looking at a load of uncertainty. Back at the beginning of COVID we had tons of certainty because it was, don't do anything, stop, do nothing. But, and that was okay because we had certainty. We knew that one of us could go to the shops. We knew we couldn't see anybody. We knew we couldn't go further than 2K from our house. Now what we've got is a shedload headload of uncertainty. Can I go on the train? Can I go on the bus? Can I go into town? Is my office open? Has it been cleaned? And it's all stuff that really worries us. So I suppose back to my point, I think that it's now that people need to somehow reignite that belief, maybe in themselves, in their teams, in their organizations. And I wonder from your perspective, you know, how can leaders do that? How can we engender belief in our people?

It's a really good question, and honestly, I mean, I don't know if I have the answer. And I think, you know, for a leader, it's trying not to do it on your own, and it's understanding, you know, you see this, we're all in this together, but it is understanding that this is affecting people in so many different ways, and different people are more comfortable, more uncomfortable, giving this VUCA kind of nature. And when you look at our needs, our sense of need of belonging, you know, actually, I'll take a step back. You know, what can you give them? What can you— what kind of level of certainty or clarity can you give them? And, you know, it's very, very hard unless you have those one-on-one conversations, I think, with people people on your team and understanding what's going on for them and understanding, okay, how do we work around this? How do we figure out the best way forward for you and that will have an effect on the team and re-establishing the connection between what they're doing and how that feeds in, in terms of value into the company and what they're doing and what the purpose of that company is and the values of that company and how that aligns with you and what you want to do. And bringing them together to move forward. I think that's really, really important. But belief, it's funny, like the only thing I can relate this to is when you get a sense of perspective, like just with sport. Sport is so much more than sport right now. And I think it, right now, I think it's potentially an hour and a half of just being able to relax and get enjoyment. And I know a game is like 80 minutes, 10 minutes halftime, winner or loser or something like that, you know. And I always think back to 2009 when we won the Grand Slam, and I think of chatting with Deccy, and Deccy turns around to me and kind of goes, this is so much more than— this actually before we won it, I think there's like second last game— he goes, this, this whole thing is so much more than, than us winning, you know what I mean. This is, this is about us bringing a bit of joy into people's lives.

Oh, totally.

And that was the purpose. And you realize that was bigger than us.

Totally. And at that time where, as a country, we were in the doldrums financially and everything was awful. So I think that gave everybody a humongous lift.

Yeah. So how do you— right now, how do we do that? How do we align the values? How do you give them some levels of certainty? How do you give them some purpose or direction? And it's not easy and it's kind of case-by-case basis. But again, with your team, asking them, what are we here for? How are we interacting with our stakeholders? You know what I mean? How do we interact and support each other? How are we doing that? How do we make decisions? How do we manage our quality? How do we evolve as fast as our environment? Because the environment is actually evolving pretty quickly. So how do we adapt to that? And then how do we function, or what are the key functions of leadership right now? As a leader, it'd be pretty brave and really vulnerable to go, what do you need me to do? What is my role here for you to be at your best? And asking those, asking those type of questions.

Yeah.

And I mean, and again, that feeds back into that really simple PERIL model that I talked about. But there's, there's oodles and oodles of different models and frameworks that we could, we could use. And I think map, like, they're like maps, and people— maps are good because they give a certain level of, of certainty. But the most important thing is bringing people along on that journey and, and and making them feel part of that journey.

And I think for me, to add to the list of very good questions you just put out there, you know, what difference are we making for people? That's a really big and powerful question. I remember when I first joined AIB and Tom Kinsliff joined as Chief Marketing Officer, and he said, we need to stop talking about selling mortgages because we don't sell mortgages, we help people to buy homes. And that's just exactly the same thing, just with a completely different gloss over the top of it that makes you realize that what you're doing is going to make a difference to another human being. And that's a very, very powerful thing. Come here, Jamie, we're out of time. But I know you're speaking at Pendulum coming up fairly shortly in a few weeks' time. I know you've just got a new podcast that's just launched. Where can people get in touch with you if they want more information? What's the best thing to do?

Well, I'm I'm all over social, as you know, and thank you very much. We've got myself and Conor Muirann got a great podcast going on, comes out usually on Friday mornings. So there's that. There's anything, like, I mean, it's funny when people ask me about coaching going, oh, you're coaching? I was like, yeah, but I'm not. I only work with people who are committed. So if you're committed and get in touch with me and find out how to get in touch with me, that's the first hurdle, if I'm honest. So I'm pretty easy to get a hold of, but I'm not going to tell people how to do it.

If you find you have a whole lot of people standing outside your house later on, it is totally your own fault, Jamie Heaslip. It's nothing to do with me or this podcast, okay? Just so everyone knows.

Listen, no, but look, yeah, I mean, look, there's the podcast. The podcast actually, and just to kind of circle back on it, the reason we're doing it is because my purpose is very clear. It's leave the jersey in a better place. So for SMEs right now, Irish companies, it's how do we put on the green jersey and help them going forward over the next 18 months. And Conall only lives down the road from me, and we were talking about this a lot. We were like, why don't we just help them? You give them a platform to talk about their business, you know what I mean? And try and magnify their message, you know, and help help people learn the lessons from them. And that again comes back to the very top of the podcast. We talk about resources, is looking at the resources around you. Resources aren't just things, they're people. Who can you lean on for advice? Who can you lean on for a connection? Who can you lean on for an introduction? All these sort of things. And that's why we do it. And it's been a great— it's been a real humbling experience to listen. Like last week, we listened to a guy Shane Ryan, I think his name is, from Feed, and how his company— this is actually the third iteration of his company because it's failed twice. Wow. And he's going again, and he's going really well now. He's across in all stores in Ireland, most stores in the UK. And picking up those lessons by talking to each other is the most important thing because I think it's only when we stop and we think and we talk that we give ourselves space for the insights to pop up.

I think that's true of leaders in or of any size of organization. Give yourself the time, the space to sit back, think about what's working well, think about what isn't working so well, and think about what you can do to change that.

I mean, you've hit it. I was going to say the most common thing I do with people at the very start is looking at a time matrix. You know what I mean? And a lot of them end up in the kind of urgent and important space rather than as a leader where they want to be kind of important but not urgent. It's that long strategic type thinking. That's where you want to be. But sometimes you can't. You're putting out the fires, especially last 6 months, 7 months. You're putting out the fires and you're, how do I adapt? One of the business involvements in the publican game with two pubs and trying to deal with that has been an interesting one, all right. But yeah, you just kind of try and lead by example, you be adaptive, you communicate, be very, very open and transparent with what's happening and where the business is going.

Yeah, and I think, you know, just to wrap up, you know, leave the jersey in a better place than when you got it, I think, is a brilliant place to finish. Jamie, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. Thanks so much for taking the time. I know you're up the walls busy, but I've loved the conversation. I'm sure listeners will as well.

Thanks, man.

Great stuff. Thanks a lot.

Take care.

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