50 | Leading with Values: The Role Model Effect on Organisations | Gillian French

Welcome to the Inspiring Change Podcast, where I talk to leaders about internal communications, engagement, leadership, and the role they all play in creating amazing cultures.

All too often we just focus on results out of a department, and then, you know, leaders are going in and they're held accountable for the results or the balance sheet. It's generally about results. It's generally a numeric conversation rather than a conversation around them leading people and how well the people are doing under their leadership.

Hi there, and welcome to this episode of the Inspiring Change Inspiring Change Podcast with me, Scott McInnes. It's hard to believe that this is episode 50 of the Inspiring Change Podcast. Little did I know when I kicked this off back with Mary Davis in her front room in January 2018 that 2 and a bit years on, 2 and a half years on, we'd be here celebrating the 50th episode. So a big thank you to all of you who've listened, who do listen, who've liked and shared. We've seen a really big lift in listener numbers over the past couple of months, and that's thanks to all all of you for your likes, your shares, your listens, and really getting the word out there about the podcast. And I hope that you'll continue to listen and continue to like and share because we've got some really, really good guests coming up. One of the things I really like, and you'll know those of you that have listened to this podcast often, one of the things I really like is to just to get some really practical insight for listeners on things that you can do in your own organizations to try and bolster your business in the areas specifically of internal communications, employee engagement, leadership, and culture.. And I love talking to practitioners. And today's guest is Gillian French from a company called Cubic Telecom. And I met Gillian on a webinar that was run by Workvivo, the crowd down in Cork who build and roll out engagement platforms. And we were on a panel discussion together back in, God, probably March or April now, I suspect. And I just thought Gillian was brilliant and she brought some really good ideas and thinking. And one of the ideas that I've nicked and actually used on this podcast a couple of times and in other presentations communications is something that she said, and I'm gonna probably steal one of the things that she's gonna say later, so she'll kill me, that back in the early days of the pandemic, they basically took their list of staff, they broke them up into chunks, and they gave them out to each of the senior leadership team just to ring those people and say, "Hi, how are you getting on? I hope everything's well. I know things are tough, but look, we're all in it together." And I think that often just those little things can make such a difference. And for me, it was such a great example of really, really good leadership how really good employee engagement and really good internal comms doesn't need to be difficult. Sometimes it's just very, very straightforward. So, Gillian, hello there.

Hi, how are you? Thanks for having me.

Oh, thanks for coming on. Thanks for coming on. As we're all stuck in our houses looking for things to do away from Zoom, and then here we are ending up on Zoom again. Yeah. Come here, listen, let me kick you off. I always start everybody off with a simple one because I think people like to know, listeners like to know where you've come from. So why don't you tell me a little bit about you, about your role, and about Cubic Cubic Telecom.

Yeah, sure. So I'm currently with Cubic Telecom. I'm with them now 2 years, just at the end of the year. I'm the Chief People Officer there. And the company is a global connectivity software company. And we have just under 200 employees. Prior to that, I was CPO of a company called Cartroller, which is another Irish tech business, probably quite well known as well. And when I started there, early days, it was about 25 employees. And when I left, it was just under 600. So I love Irish indigenous businesses. Businesses. I love startup kind of environment. I love scaling businesses. And that's where I suppose when I, when I joined Cartwheel, I really found my passion for people.

Great. And tell me a little bit about Cubic then. What is it? What is it you actually do?

So as Chief People Officer, I look after the people strategy. So I'm basically looking after the people. That's how I see my role and the success of my role is people growing, developing, being promoted. Assisting the business in achieving its strategy by, you know, getting the right people into the right roles, doing the right job, you know. So, I very much see that my job is a strategic HR person. I love HR and the field of HR, but where I really, really love, and what I love doing, is working with the C-suite on getting the right people into the right roles to deliver the business strategy.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. All too often, I think HR is is seen as not being particularly strategic, not being particularly aligned with the commercial side of the business, that HR people are there to process leave applications and look at pensions and that kind of stuff. But you might tell you what we'll do, we're going to actually come onto a little bit more about that later on. So, I mean, just about you, when was it in your career that you realized you had a real passion for the people side of business?

So, when I started in Cartwright, it was just 25 people and I actually had a background in hotels. So, I worked for 10 years in hotels in the Jury Doyle Group, and I went in as just a part-time waitress and worked my way up to a deputy general manager in the same property. And what I loved about that was that they gave you great responsibility. So when I went into Cartroller, I was the director of operations initially. So I did lots of different things and worked in lots of different departments. But after a while, I knew that I needed to specialize in something. So I wanted to really look at what I felt I was good at, what I brought to the business. And one of the things that gave me energy was people. I loved to be around people. I loved helping people with issues they had. I loved you know, sort of seeing people get on and growing in the business. And I knew that I was, we were doing something, I suppose. I was hiring people that I felt would work well together. And I was hiring and people said like, "Oh, you seem to have a skillset," but I never at that stage in my career understood what it was, but actually I was crafting a culture and doing a lot of strategic HR things unbeknownst to myself. So business got to a point where I realized you have to bring in expertise in particular departments. So I needed to specialize myself. So I went back to college, and I studied strategic HR, organizational behavior, and executive coaching. And that was then when I then went into my role as CPO within the organization. So I think that really stood out to me as well, because I understood businesses. The leadership team had seen that I knew how to— I understood how the business worked. But I also then had that capability to put the right people in place and bring the whole thing together.

Brilliant. And I think— I always think that actually in any of the very niche disciplines, whether it be HR, communications, or risk, or legal, or wherever, that if you've come from the background within the business or within a business, I think having a really firm idea and a really firm grasp of what goes on just in business in general is brilliant and really, really helpful.

Yeah, and I think I can't thank— you know, years ago, Drew Stewart was such a great grounding, and they taught you everything about P&Ls and how to run, you know, your hotels. You knew everything in the business from the cost of sheets to a pint of Guinness, you know, so that gave you that really good grounding of understanding how a business ran and your cost line and your profit line. And that, I suppose, stood to me then when I went into Cartroller.

Brilliant. One of the things you touched on there when you're talking about your role in Cubic was bringing people on, promoting people, getting the right people in the right roles. And it was interesting, the last episode with Zoe Routh, who's a leadership expert down in Australia, we were chatting about the fact that, as we have done actually often on this podcast, that people, leaders get get thrown into people leadership roles, not necessarily because they're good people leaders, but actually because they're senior, because they've become the head of something or they've been there long enough that, well, you know, you need to have a team now. And some sink, some swim, but very many actually sink and really do need a lot of support. And I guess from a leadership development perspective, what's your take on the whole, are leaders born or made thing?

Well, I think leaders can be made if they have a growth mindset and they are open to feedback and they are willing to be vulnerable. I think that you can develop and grow leadership. I think if I look at myself when I was younger, I always wanted to be a leader in games. I wanted to do things, but throughout my career, people took an interest in me. People actually took time to mentor me and teach me things. And I think that we need to really instill that in organizations. And I don't know even the the best of organizations put, you know, training programs, but really mentoring people and bringing people on is probably a dying thing because leaders are so busy, they're online, they're doing things, they don't actually have the space and time to sit down and explain the rationale or why they're making those decisions. And I know in my career, I definitely have, you know, a couple of people that I could point to that really helped me. So innately, yes, I probably always wanted to be a leader and I showed it when I was younger and maybe my positioning in the family and all that type of stuff. But if I didn't get that throughout my career, I'd be where I am today, 'cause there's definitely people that helped me along the way. I have seen leaders come into businesses I've worked in. I think they've been rough diamonds. They may have progressed very quickly because they're very smart, or, you know, that they've gotten opportunities and they've progressed really quickly. But sometimes then they're making mistakes that they should have made maybe 2 or 3 years ago in their career. And if they're willing and have a growth mindset, I think you can help them. But if they don't and they're a little bit close-minded and they've moved too quickly and they're afraid of being vulnerable or showing that they're not capable, then you have an issue. But if the person is willing to be vulnerable and have that growth mindset, I think you can help them.

And do you think, just picking up on a point you made there about leaders being busy, you know, too busy perhaps to do the leadership stuff, which was actually very much what we were chatting to Zoe about in the last episode, do you think that's a shortcoming of organizations that people in people leadership roles also have a job? Effectively, you know, they're head of risk or head of legal, or they work in the business, where actually you could almost argue that the people leadership role they have is enough of a job without having to do day-to-day stuff on the side as well.

Absolutely. I totally agree with that 100%. I think that you should be measuring your leaders and your managers on the leaders and managers that they produce, on how their people, how successful their people are. And I think all too often we just focus on results out of a department. And then, you know, leaders are going going in and they're held accountable for the results or the balance sheet. And there's very little discussion around how many people in your function have been promoted, what's the sick, you know, in your department, how many people have grown, why is this person still in this role? There's no sort of debate or discussion about the people within their function. It's generally about results. It's generally, you know, a numeric conversation rather than a conversation around them leading people and how well the people are doing under their leadership, you know.

Which is wrong.

Yeah. And we know this stuff. You know, I was actually this morning, we do a leadership series in Cubic, and we have a guy that comes in and he does it every month and he picks a topic. So we had emotional intelligence, you know, and we were talking about emotional intelligence and everyone on the call was saying, we understand what a good leader looks like. We talk about empathy, talk about all these really great qualities that they should have. We understand all the things they should be doing, but still it's just not transferring in the workplace. It just doesn't. We know the good practice, we know what we should be doing, but for some reason busyness or other priorities always seem to take precedence and then the important stuff falls further down the list.

And how do you stop that happening then?

You have to have that drive and passion to keep making it a top agenda item, you know, you have to really, you know, keep pushing it because at the end of the day any successful organization has really great people behind it. The organization organisation is always successful because there's people in there who care, there's people in there that are doing their best, there's people in there that are working really well together. And, you know, boards and senior leadership need to recognise that. And I think they do, but I think the problem is they then don't know how to transfer that learning and actually make the shift and say, well, do you know what? Yeah, no, we're not going to focus on results. Imagine having a board meeting with no results, where no results are discussed and it's just people and how's the wellbeing of people and, you know, Good God, that's madness.

That's madness. What are you talking about? But isn't it really interesting that, I mean, you know, if you look at that whole Branson thing of put your people first and let them look after your business, then, you know, you could argue that actually, that'd be a really powerful conversation to have, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

So let's today agree that we're going to put a call out to boards not to talk about numbers anymore, and just to talk about people and well-being, and their leaders doing the really right stuff. Excellent. So, it was actually interesting. One of the things that we did to combat that whole numbers piece, when I was working at AIB, before I, before I founded Inspiring Change, was we introduced our values into the whole performance management piece. So, actually, only half of what you did through the year was based on the what, so doing the number, if you like. The rest was based on how. So, if you were living the values, if you were being one team, and all the other values that we had, if you were doing that really well and could tell stories about and give examples of where you did that really effectively, that would earn you the other half. Now, there wasn't a bonus at the time when I was there, but it would've earned you, if there was a bonus, it would've earned you another half of that bonus. So it was an interesting way to get people to focus on the fact that actually, if just 'cause you do 120% of the number, if you leave a trail of death and destruction behind you in the pursuit of that, then it's for naught because you're gonna have people walking out the door, people on sick, no new leaders coming up, all that stuff.

Yeah, no, I agree with you 100%. I mean, we have it within our system. So we do quarterly conversations, they're called QCs, and they're very simple. Again, they're just like, what's working, what's not working, and are you living the values? And you have to give examples around the values. And one of our values is help others, and it's my favorite. And we did a survey recently, and it seems to be the employees' favorite as well, because I believe that if every day we could go into work and our mindset was to help other people see how I could fix things, you know, work with other people. But what tends to happen when we go into organizations is that systems and processes and different things happening around the business seem to muddy that. And I think sometimes we do go in with that good intention, but ego or something someone said, or, you know, a department budget or all the other noise that goes on, we then, you know, go down a different path. And you know what, it doesn't actually make you happy either. Generally, if you do stuff for people, you work well with them and you help other people, it kind of gives you energy and, you know, It definitely motivates people and it bodes well for a really good, happy workplace, you know.

Yeah, I think we know physiologically actually when you help somebody out, if you give somebody recognition or you help them out, you actually, as well as them getting a little dump of dopamine, you get it as well. Yeah, so there's something physiological there too.

So that's one of our values in Cubic is help others. I didn't want to put in collaboration because I felt collaboration is one of those words that kind of gets used a lot, and I really want to differentiate it to say no, it's actually helping others, help others and because I think in a lot of us, it's like our factory setting. We do, we're actually kind of reared and it's innately in us, but whatever happens with work, sometimes we kind of miss that and we forget and actually behave in the opposite way.

Yeah, it's a funny one. So just actually continuing, just continuing on the theme of leadership, we talked about poor leadership practice before and people having growth mindsets and being open to change and feedback. What's one of the first things that you and your team does when you encounter poor leadership behavior?

Deal with it straight away. It's one of the things that, I mean, if you bring a bad leader in, I hate to use the term bad, probably ineffective or misaligned with your culture, whichever sort of appropriate term we want to use, and they can have such a detrimental effect on your business and your people more so. I've seen people under the reign of poor leadership and it's something And that's, it's just not healthy for people, you know, if they're working with someone that is just not the type of leader that we would like to work with, you know. So absolutely deal with it quickly and rectify it. Obviously always give people a chance to improve. I think sometimes there's bad leaders and then there's leaders who maybe just don't understand that, you know, don't understand the new culture, maybe haven't had the development. So give them a chance for sure. But, you know, once bitten, give them that time to prove. And then if it doesn't work yet, definitely, it's one of the leaders can have a serious impact on the business and your people, and it needs to be dealt with swiftly.

It's like the old bad apple in a barrel, isn't it?

Yeah, and I think everybody tries to avoid it, you know, and it is one of the— nobody likes performance management, you know, and particularly when you term it PMS or, you know, performance management, it's this negative. But actually, it's not healthy for the other person either. I think it's really wrong to leave someone in a role that's ineffective and people start operating around you. I think it's actually really disrespectful to the person. So I think, you know, you need to give the person feedback, you need to give them time to resolve it and explain the behaviors. I think a lot of times as well, people don't explain the type of behavior that they do want to see. They always say, this is what I don't want to see, you know, and they say you did this and you make it personal. But actually, if you describe the behavior you want to see and the positive behaviors, or maybe if they've done it before and tell them this is a really good example, and we want to see more of this. And that can help as well, you know.

Yeah, I was chatting to a client, or potential client, a week or two ago. And it was, it was around some, some corporate narrative creation. And I said, well, tell me what your values are. And they didn't really have any good ones or ones that they were happy with yet. They were still happy to go ahead and try and put together a framework and a terms of reference for a new leadership layer they were putting into the organization. And I kind of said, but how can you make sure that everybody's consistently applying what the values are and your expected behaviors if you're not able to show them what those values and behaviors actually are? I was kind of surprised, because that for me is very much the cart before the horse.

Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. And there's a term I've heard before where the fish rots from the head, you know, so the values are not being lived by, you know, the senior leadership team. It's, you know, and I do like that term because it does start with that level. If you see something, and I always say this to founders, I do other work as well with some founders and in a coaching context and things like that. And generally, if they say to me they see behaviors in the company that they don't like, I do ask them to think about themselves and to really have a hard look because generally it does start with the top. Now, I don't think that takes away people's personal accountability. And I think in a work context, we need to do more of that in our surveying and stuff. What are you bringing every day to work as an employee? Are you living the values? Are you bringing good, positive energy? What have you contributed to ensure your happiness in the workplace? Or sometimes you'll have people and they say, I didn't get any goals. Or you're like, well, did you ask? So as individuals and employees, we do need to empower ourselves and make sure that we're not just constantly looking upwards and critiquing and that we are living the values and behaving in the way that is positive. But definitely with regards culture, I think leadership have to role model those values and live those values, eat, sleep, and breathe them. And if they don't, they just become something that people, nobody buys into, and they're actually more damaging then.

And they become words on the wall, don't they? And on a mouse mat or on a screensaver. And you're right, I think it's actually It's better to not have values than it is to have them and not live by them because the integrity gap that that creates and the trust gap, which is probably there already if you look at a lot of the research from places like Edelman, there's a trust gap there already. And all that does is simply amplify that trust gap and make it even bigger.

Yeah.

At Inspiring Change, we help our clients to implement sustainable change and drive business performance by putting their people first. We do that through a focus on strategic internal communications, employee engagement, and leadership consultancy. If you're struggling with change or getting your people aligned behind your purpose, vision, or strategy, then get in touch. Simply visit our website at www.inspiringchange.ie for more. When I think about— just back to a point you made there around, around values around culture and behaviors. And you talked about, really, it's about the senior team being the ones that need to role model those behaviors in order to make sure that everybody else kind of swims in behind, I guess, to continue on your fish analogy. Is there a role for everybody in the organization in terms of driving those behaviors and driving the culture in an organization? Or is it literally up to the CEO and the senior team?

I think the CEO and the senior team play an absolutely pivotal role in role modeling the values. That goes without saying. But as I just mentioned there, I do think employees absolutely have to take a responsibility too. I think sometimes as employees, you know, we become, I'm an employee as well, you can become complacent and think, oh, you know, so-and-so is not doing it, they're not doing it, you know, I'm not going to do it. You need to do the right thing, you know, and if the right thing is to be collaborative and one of the values is collaborative, but you don't see it anywhere else, you need to do your best to be collaborative and hold on to that. And play your role. And I think you constantly need to check with yourself because again, at that talk I was at this morning, we're talking about emotions being contagious, you know. So we have a duty of care, like when I come into work with my team, that, you know, I'm in good form, I'm happy, that bringing positive energy to the meeting, that I'm doing my best to be the best version of myself that I can be at that meeting to, you know, bring bringing, I suppose, positive emotions to the workplace. And I think sometimes we can get into the mode where we're doing surveys and, you know, is there anything else we can do? You know, should— are you getting your goals? No, no, no, no. Well, you know, we are all adults in the workplace. If you don't have your goals, go and ask for them and say, you know, so the question should be, have you asked for them? And if you haven't, then just go forward and ask your manager for that clarity or do those things. Yourself as an employee, to get the clarity that you need. And also then consider, am I doing my best? Am I turning up to the workplace doing my best to provide a positive culture for everybody else? Or am I actually contributing?

Yeah, I think it's interesting that, you know, we often say of people leaders that, you know, and to use your language there, which I use myself all the time, you know, to bring your best self to work every day, to be that person that people want to follow and want to work with. But I do also think I think that organizations, we run the risk these days, and you've mentioned vulnerability a couple of times, and we run the risk these days, maybe sometimes, of putting our people leaders under too much pressure and forgetting that they're people. And the fact that it's actually, it is okay for you to come to work and have a bad day. I'm sorry, team, I'm just having a really bad day. My car broke down, the dog got sick on the carpet, whatever the reasons are, but that has to be okay, right?

Totally. I think most people don't really like those perfect people that always seem chirpy, warm, and nothing seems to, You know, I've never suffered that.

I've never suffered that problem, I have to say.

Definitely not here either. But, you know, I think absolutely when it comes to leadership, people actually don't, you know, perfection isn't, it's okay to get it wrong. And I think it's absolutely okay to say, yeah, I'm having a bad day. And I think people really, really respect that because I think that comes back to authentic leadership. Nobody wants to have, you know, this person who's perky all the time and doesn't accept that other people have bad days. And so, yeah, I totally agree with you on that. That one.

I think it's interesting that, you know, we talk about, you know, vulnerability is a word that's crept into the kind of the leadership vernacular only probably really in the past few years, I'd argue. And I still think a lot of leaders are kind of scared of it, of showing that, showing that side of themselves, because they're still in that kind of 1970s, 1980s vibe of, you know, I need to have all the answers. Actually, you don't. And actually, by not having all the answers, by asking better questions, that allows you to more and better stuff out of your people. Give them an opportunity to come up with the answers for a change.

Yeah, well, I mean, you talked about it there, just the well-being. And you think about the situation that we're in with COVID-19 now. And I talked to you about ringing people and checking they were OK. And some people weren't OK. And I knew that people managers were ringing. Some people weren't OK. And they're trying to sort that out. Then they're trying to deal with customer issues and get everyone remote. And then they have to go home to their families. And so we only We have a certain amount of energy and a certain amount to give every day 'cause we are only human. And people who say that they can multitask and they do loads and they love being busy all the time, there is a capacity that everybody has. And we have to have that awareness that our people now at the moment, their capacity probably from this pandemic between just the fear of us dealing with other things at home, the kids, they're probably pretty close to capacity. And I say everyone's gonna need the Christmas holidays. The people managers are probably even closer and they need to mind their people managers and need to mind the leaders as well. They're under a huge amount of pressure. So I think, yeah, just following on from what you said, that there is this expectation that, you know, at a leadership level and managerial level, they should have all the answers, they should be turning up every day, but they have families too. They're in lockdown, they're taking on other people's worries, and they have a limited capacity for what they can take on. And then they go home. Do they have anything left for their families as well? So, like, there's that piece too.

And we talk about those leaders being the most important people in an organization, in my belief anyway. And I think when you look at some of the well-being stuff that's happening at the moment, and look, let's be frank, some companies are doing that better than others. I'm not sure that there's much more Zoom yoga than I know some of my contacts can do.

I won't say that's one of the things we're doing then.

I'm not— yeah, well, as long as that's not all you're doing, it's okay. But if that's all you're If you're doing that, we'd have to have a very serious word after the podcast. But I do think that, you know, we talk about, you know, company-wide wellbeing programs, you know, in the face of COVID But actually, I believe that you need something which is far more targeted at your people leaders to start with. Because if they fall over, if they're sick, if they're suffering from mental health issues, then you're goosed because that link in the middle of the organization is effectively gone. Your employees are kind of set off to sea, if you like.

Well, I only had this conversation with my friend about 2 weeks ago. She's studying psychology. And she said to me, we were talking about— and I was saying, you know, concerns, and people are at home, and it's a long time. And now, with the second lockdown, and winter coming, and the dark nights. And she said, and is there support for your team, the people team, and your people managers? Like she said, I'm studying psychology now. And when I become qualified as a psychologist, I'll obviously have a supervisor that needs to check in and I have to do supervision. If you're a coach, a qualified coach, you generally have to go and speak to someone and do supervision and they check on you. But as HR practitioners or leaders, like there's no, there's very few companies that I would know of that are providing assistance to their top team or assistance to, you know, people in HR that will probably be dealing with a lot of people that are having mental health issues. And also they're not qualified really to be dealing with them. And I'm sure a lot of companies like ourselves has EAP services and stuff like that. But, um, yeah, I think it's definitely something organizations should look at into the future, particularly for people in the field of HR that would be dealing with those type of things, and to make sure that they're checking in, they're okay.

Yeah. Oh, you're taking on so much of that person's angst and so much of that person's worry yourself, and you, and you do carry it home with you. I don't— I just don't think think as a human being, regardless whether you work in HR or not, that you can just shut the door or shut your locker or switch off your computer at the end of the day and just say, well, that's me done with work until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

Yeah. Well, I always said if that was the way I operated, then I was in the business too long. I needed to leave because I think that is one of the most important things when you're in a type of chief people officer role, is that you care about people, that you're there to help people, that you problem solve with them, you do your best. So if you you don't kind of care anything to switch off at the end of the night, well, then you're probably— it's time to move on from that field.

Go and do a different job.

Yeah.

From a communications perspective, obviously, that's something that we look at as a company with our clients often. And I wonder from your perspective in COVID— not in COVID, in Cubic during COVID Good God, it's like a tongue twister. I wonder how— do you think that the whole COVID thing has reinforced how critical communications in keeping people connected to the organization?

Like times 10, you know. When it hit initially, I was probably doing 2 to 3 communications a week and good lengthy ones about aligning with the government and what the government has said and what our position is and where we're at. And we did hour-long catch-ups. Now at the start, I thought, gosh, are they maybe a bit long? But people, the feedback we got was that they really needed those catch-ups. So what we did was we would communicate where we were, our business, when the cars are on the road, obviously that would generate revenue for us, and the fact that we're in lockdown. So we wanted full transparency with our employees to show them where the business was at, where the revenue was at. And then the CEO would, you know, speak and tell us, tell everybody on the call how the business was doing, what the next steps were. So we had the catch-up and then we had my communications from the CPO sort of 3 times a week. But also we then have a platform, I think you mentioned it earlier, Vivo, and it's a communications platform. So we would constantly update on different things that would be happening around the business as well so that people, you know, had that. It's like a social media platform for internal use and keep people just completely up to date. And the feedback we got in surveys, we do pull surveys then every week as well, was that they really, really valued that communication because they were nervous at the time. They really needed it and it gave them great comfort. But still, I do a communication every Monday now. Even sometimes I just say, you know, hope everyone had a good weekend, there's very little, no changes in the government, you know, and there might be one or two things that I have to say about initiatives that we're doing that week, but to make sure that we're keeping that flow going is hugely important. And now we talked previously when, you know, I called everybody along with my Director of Talent and the CEO was calling people. Now before Christmas we're going to do that again again, as in try and split the list and just check in with people. Because it is so hard. We're close to 200 people now to make sure— just check in again before we finish off the year how everybody is and touch base so that they've seen a senior leader before the end of the year.

Yeah, and it's not to do with if you're doing your job well or if you've met your targets.

No, it's just—

Yeah.

—how are you getting on? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, really important. And how do you think— how important was the whole Workvivo platform in terms of creating— because I think often We think about, you know, organizations think about internal communications as being very much broadcast out to employees. But of course, you and I both know that really it's the conversation between employees and the organization and vice versa that really constitutes really good internal comms. And what are some of the things that you've done on Workvivo to try and drive that conversation?

So even just, I suppose it's for me, community. I always think of the workplace as a community and keeping people up to date with the community and what's happening. So to give you an example, at the moment we're running a mental health initiative. So there's random acts of kindness. So we're posting up if we've done any random act of kindness. So I was just saying my friend from Spain was missing home. So I got her this Irish hamper from giftsdirect.ie. So I posted it up on WorkViva just to tell people that's what I did. She was homesick. Then our CEO was telling us that his wife and, you know, his child, his two kids decided they want to thank Mami for everything that she's done. Again, he takes a little picture of the two kids and posts it up and tells them, you know, what's happening and the things he's doing. So it's keeping that connection with people. And then people are commenting and saying, that's lovely. When my kids started school, my daughter just started in Montessori, we were in lockdown as well, posted those. A lot of our staff posted Halloween, you know, shots to show with their children dressed up or, you know, different pumpkin or designs in their house. So it kind of keeps us really connected. And when people are having babies and that type of stuff. So that community stuff is hugely important. Important in lockdown because you don't get to see people, we don't get to hear those things at the water cooler anymore, you don't get to hear those things when you're sitting and having a sandwich with someone. And so we're inviting people to try and do that and keep us updated and then be able to comment and keep connected with each other. And obviously every communication that I do as well is up on the platform too, and again people can, you know, comment, they can ask questions, and we do a Slido as well, a catch-up to make sure that we're capturing anything that's on people's minds. It's anonymous. So people put in loads of questions, like around lockdown we got a good few questions, and they really surface the stuff again that if you're in the office you might see. But people, you know, definitely you have to surface that when it's remote because it can gain momentum for no reason, and you just answer the question, a catch-up, it's over.

I think that is one of the biggest issues that we have with the whole remote thing is that, you know, those little conversations that happen at the water cooler, walking past somebody's desk and seeing them looking a bit glum. Yeah. You know, somebody having a question and just being able to come and, you know, knock on your door and say, have you got a second, Gillian? You know, all that's gone. So I think putting in place channels and ways and means for those moments to still happen is really important.

Yeah, yeah, no, it really is. And we would have been lost. And that's not— I'm not doing a plug on this now because No, I've just found it really helpful for me as CPO in this because, as you said, I do feel that I'm doing my job sort of blindfolded at the moment. I would generally walk around the office, chat to people, you hear things, you know, you're just around the office and you know what's happening with teams and you know what's going on. But right now it's very, very difficult for, you know, people in senior HR roles and senior leaders because they just don't know really how people are feeling. And it's very hard to have difficult conversations or open up in this type of forum when you're over a Zoom or you're over Teams. It's just not the same as capturing it at that moment in the office, you know.

Yeah, for sure. So, so we spend a lot of time talking about the negatives of COVID of which there are very, very many. Not only the fact that I can't leave my house anymore, which is a bit of a pain for the next 4 weeks, but look, there you go. I wonder I wonder, you know, if we, you know, we've talked about all the downsides and I do think there are some massive hurdles that organizations are going to have to get over when it comes down to back to whatever normal is going to look like later. But we are gonna end up with this kind of blended, blended working situation where I think companies are going to have people in the office sometimes and have them at home other times or working in Barcelona or wherever they happen to be. What do you think are the benefits benefits of that for people? Because I think it's easy to talk about all the downsides of, you know, well, it's hard to do our culture, and it's hard to have the water cooler moments, and people can't chat in my door, and I can't see if they're unhappy. But there has to be upsides, are there?

Totally. It gives you more access to different talent in different regions, you know. I mean, one of the challenges, particularly when you're in the tech industry in Ireland, is getting tech talent. You know, it's a limited pool, and you're constantly, you know, fighting for the same talent. So it opens doors for you. You can, you know, hire people in different regions, different countries. So that's great from that perspective, that it opens it up for you and you have more choice, I suppose, ultimately. The other thing is, I think for businesses particularly, I've worked in smaller business that then kind of grow, and Cubix the same, it's 200 employees now. But when you're scaling regional offices, it can be very challenging for smaller businesses. I think this has actually— this pandemic has trained us all in how to kind of onboard remote employees, you know, do all your policies and all your processes had to be, you know, remote. So we've done all that and we're qualified now. We've actually increased our skill set, you know, we're able to operate in this fashion. So scaling businesses and opening in different regions and hiring employees will be easier for smaller businesses because they have the technology, they've done it, and they've acted in this way for the past 8 months. So I think that will be a positive for scaling and growing businesses. I think again, probably you got an instant continuity plan. Most people put that in the long finger, but now we have it done.

Yeah, because it's tomorrow. You have to have it done by tomorrow.

Exactly, yeah. So it's done. And finally, I think there are employees, and we have them in Cubic, that have a very long commute. They're spending time on the M50, or they're spending time 2 hours this way or 2 hours that way. And you can make a huge impact into someone's life if you say to them, look, for 2 days a week, of course, you can work from home, or drop the kids into school and then log on. Those things make a massive difference to people. They don't cost the business anything. You're not adding to your payroll. You know, it's nothing to the business as such, but you actually have given someone flexibility, which means a huge amount to them and maybe, you know, enables them to bring their kids to school or just be there to see them when they get home and get them set up. So I think it makes a big difference on family life and having that flexibility, I think, will really, I suppose, solidify the relationship between the business and the employee and ultimately make them more loyal, you know, in the long term if they have that facility.

But I don't— Allow you to retain them.

Yeah, exactly. But I don't think it'll work for— I don't think long term— and this is not— I think there's lots of positives. But equally, I think people will return to the office. I think there will be FOMO. I think that people will be looking at meetings, seeing everyone else in the meeting room, and ultimately, they will go back into the office, a lot of people, unless they live sort of some distance away.

Yeah, for sure. Listen, really conscious of time. And last question. So I'm always interested in finding out where people get their ideas and inspiration from. So what's the one place that you go to? What's one of the resources you use most often when you're looking for new ideas or inspiration or things to do differently?

I always love to do things differently. I hate when some of my team come up and say, I've heard this company's doing X or this company's doing Y. I think that we can always, you know, put our own stamp on it and have our own learning. So I like to always put my own mark on it and the team's mark on it. Where do I get my inspiration? I read a lot. I attend the Pendulum Summit, those type of things, the HR Summit, which is a great one. Then I would look at the speakers. I would kind of connect with the speakers on LinkedIn. I have a very big network from going to college and the different places that I've worked. And I would always draw on my network. And we sort of pass articles and pass different podcasts and pass different things on to each other. So I think that helps me. With their learnings. But anywhere I go, I kind of take it as an opportunity that I'm going to learn something. So even talking to the kids, I was asking my son, who's 12, his view of leadership last night, because I think we would have this conversation, so you learn what his, at his age, what he thinks leadership is. And no matter where I go, I try and see what kind of learning or what I can take from it.

And it does beg the question, what did he think leadership was? What have you been role modeling?

Well, he said, look, Sinead, other people rather than themselves. Yeah, I thought that was nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'll soon learn. It's more dog eat dog than that. Must be great being 12. Listen, Gillian, it's been a pleasure having you on. Thanks a million for taking the time. I've really enjoyed the chat. It's been great. As I said at the top of this, I always love chatting to practitioners who are down in the weeds and down actually doing the do every single day of the week. And there's been some really, really useful ideas and inputs and thoughts in there. So thanks much for your time. Great, thank you. Thanks for listening. To hear from other leaders in our podcasts, to read our blogs, or to find out more about the work that we do at Inspiring Change, please visit inspiringchange.ie.